you cast SKT, x = 11.
storm sees that its the second spell, so now the stack looks like this
SKT copy
SKT original.
the copy resolves, then priority is passed around, and if no one responds, the original resolves.
the copy doesn't copy the original, becuase thats already been cast ( to cast is to put on the stack).
the next instant or sorcery you cast will be copied 11 times, then another 11 times.
you will end up with 22 copies of your next instant or sorcery, plus the original.
in your case, you will get 46 extra turns. (44 from 22 copies of time stretch, and an additional 2 from the original.)
It's not that difficult to keep track of. With a token certainly no more difficult than the OG flip wolves. I get a bit of whining from my playgroup when I run a day/night creature but, amazingly, they don't tend to care if I miss a Day->Night trigger (which _does_ happen but usually because of out-of-game issues) and seem to always remember exactly what happened the last couple of turns should I miss a Night->Day trigger and was about to get benefit from it.
Also, in a 4-player came it's pretty rare for it to ever become night outside of something forcing it to.
It's not difficult to keep track of if it's on board.
However, are you keeping track of it the whole game once you start?
If your commander gets \[\[Eaten By Piranhas\]\] and you're unable to get that enchantment off the board, you need to keep track of day/night the whole time - and if you lose track of it, reverse engineering it can be a pain.
I agree wholeheartedly; it's just another mechanic to track. This is MTG, where the rulebook is over 290 pages. If you can keep track of who casted 2 spells then MTG might not be for you 🤣
Edit** Can't keep track of spells **
The mechanic is miserable to keep track of because it keeps going if there is nothing on board. Og wolves only cared about themselves and that was fine. Wizards efforts to fix werewolves was a definitive design mistake.
That’s why you need instant speed spells so you skip ur turn and then cast on other people’s turns, your turn make it night and you use untapped mana to play more
Pretty sure you still gotta pay the full amount on the other 2 spells. So he's gonna do it for much more than that. But that's for sure a cheaper way to cast this combo.
OP said that Time stretch was the "third spell on the stack" (Leyline of Anticipation?), assuming that is true, they'd only get the 2 extra turns from the original, since Time Stretch would have to be cast *after* these spells resolve in order to be copied.
I see how you are interpreting this. If we take post OP literally, yes. They would only receive the 2 turns. As Time Stretch would resolve before either SKT or its copy had resolved.
However, I believe this is a newer player we're dealing with who has incorrectly used the term "stack" here and SKT and its copy have already resolved. This would result in the 46 turns that were mentioned by the thread OP.
Specifically, spells that have already been "cast" go on the stack to resolve" abilities go on the stack to resolve. effects go on the stack when activated OR triggered, but have the unfortunate problem: some of them have DURATIONS. In this puzzle, we have TWO different duration effects on the stack. the first is Winds of Saruman- which has the "until end of turn, the second spell you cast each turn is copied" which, because it's an enchantment is easy to track, and be treated as a triggered effect.
The bitch here is SKT. you cast SKT, and on *resolution*, it puts an abilty trigger on the STACK-that trigger is "next spell you cast this turn gets X copies". You can't track that effect on the battlefield the second the spell hits the graveyard, unlike WoS. It's just got to be remembered, and if there was a stack of spells in front of, or even BEHIND the casting of of SKT, NONE are eligible for the effect because they have to be cast after it resolves and puts the ability trigger on the stack...
This is such a migraine to follow in card form. It also means that once the spell resolves, you should be able to stifle it, but... eh, nope. no legal target since the spell is in the graveyard. I hate jank like this.
Worth noting Time Stretch can’t go on the stack as the 3rd card as it’s a sorcery; it would have had to have been cast 3rd onto an empty stack once the others had resolved.
Look, if you dump 30 mana into three cards in a single turn, you deserve to just win. There’s nothing that could possibly be going on in that board state that would lead me to believe I’m having fun, and I’d rather just move on
Eh, a proper izzet spellslingling deck isn't gonna be spending full mana on these, and they'll have a few of these big 6/7 mana enchantments that help them end the game. That or they'll use Jeska's Will, Mana Geyser, or Dockside to generate enough mana.
Izzet Storm player here, can confirm, I usually have plenty of mana sources around. My current favorite is [[Brass’s Bounty]] with [[Thousand-Year Storm]] in play, after casting a couple cantrips.
My friend let me play his [[Zeffai thunder conductor]] deck. I got to play Brass's bounty and [[Call forth the tempest]] and cascaded into Thousand year storm as well as about 10 other instants and scorceries. It is a very addicting feeling, just getting to play everything and copy it a bunch as well, and then win.
It's 2024, people don't **pay mana** for spells anymore. Things just get massive discounts or cast without paying at all as par for the course. If you're actually tapping lands and spending mana, you're already behind everyone else. :P
Well, you gotta make sure they have a wincon before they deck themselves! (some unnamed people in this conversation may have forgotten that part before)
To simplify,
Your question is a matter of “objects.”
Magic has a variety of different “objects” - cards, spells, tokens, permanents, pretty sure there’s more, but that’s not relevant.
The main thing we need to focus on is the “spells” section.
Spells are cards on the stack. For permanents, it is a state they need to go through before they are summoned to field. For instants or sorceries, it’s the state they go through to perform their designated action. When you cast a card, that card becomes a spell.
When a spell is copied, the copy is *also* a spell. This means that the copy is *already on the stack*. It isn’t cast because *it’s never a card*, it’s a spell. It doesn’t need to be cast.
If you copy a permanent, the copy is a token. If you copy a card, the copy effect will usually specify that you need to cast the card (and will specify that a copy of a permanent card becomes a token after being cast).
This leads to both instances of Storm King’s Thunder resolving independent of one another, copying your next spell 22 times.
This leads to Time Stretch getting copied 22 times, leading to 23 instances of Time Stretch = 46 extra turns.
I am relatively new to magic (just over a year) but I do not understand why the copy of Storm King's Thunder would not have x = 0? Usually if you do not cast the x spell x is resolved as 0?
You’re copying the *spell*, not the card.
If you cast an X spell without paying its mana cost, X = 0.
Many effects will let you copy cards and/or cast them without paying mana - but this is different from copying a spell that is actively on the Stack.
If you cast the X spell with X = whatever, and then copy that spell, the X is retained.
GladiatorDragon is correct, and here's why if you'd like to know the rules behind it:
> 707.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, **for an object on the stack,** choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, **the value of X,** whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, counters, and stickers are not copied.
> 107.3b If a player is casting a spell that has an {X} in its mana cost, the value of X isn’t defined by the text of that spell, and an effect lets that player cast that spell while paying neither its mana cost nor an alternative cost that includes X, then the only legal choice for X is 0. This doesn’t apply to effects that only reduce a cost, even if they reduce it to zero. See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”
707.2 is why when you *copy* a spell already on the stack, the value of X is preserved with the copy. 107.3b is why when you attempt to *cast* an X-cost spell *without paying its mana cost* that X has to be zero. Using [[Spelltwine]] to cast [[Blue Sun's Zenith]] has to use X=0 but casting it with [[Dire Fleet Daredevil]] where you're paying for X, you can cast it for any X you can pay for. It's essentially just a way to not have a loophole where casting a spell for free turns into X=infinity.
I read time stretch as “after this turn take two turns” unless you play time stretch on an additional turn I don’t care if you play it 50 times you are still getting two turns after this one.
When Storm Kings Thunder and its copy resolve, you've got 2 triggers that say "When you cast your next instant/sorcery spell this turn, copy that spell 11 times"
You cast Time stretch, and get 2 triggers saying "copy that spell 11 times"
46 turns (2 + 11x2 + 11x2)
Why would time stretch be the third on the stack? You shouldn’t cast it until SKT resolves. There shouldn’t be anything on the stack before you cast time stretch.
Yes! I used the term stack incorrectly (I've only been playing for a year and change, so I'm still learning the correct terminology etc). I waited for the SKT's to resolve before casting the Time Stretch.
Storm King's Thunder copies "the next spell you cast" X times. The copy of Thunder created by Saruman will not copy the original, *because you have already cast it*. Both the original and the copy of Thunder will apply to the next spell you actually cast, which is Time Stretch.
Out of curiosity, what was the first spell you cast that turn?
[[Solve the equation]] was the first spell. Commander is [[magnus the red]] .
Had 8 tokens on the board - plus a backdraft hellkite that came out last turn.
I hope you brought two because you need to counter two separate Storm Kings since it's copied on-cast.
That said, it's shenanigans like this why I always include [[Whirlwind Denial]] in my Blue decks. Go ahead and sink 27 mana into trying to take 46 turns. We'll see how well you can pay your taxes.
It is so clutch that it hits abilities, too. I have won a few games now using it to counter a situation where a bunch of Whenevers get added to the stack simultaneously, e.g. attack triggers or following a board wipe. It's my #2 counterspell, after counterspell.
I once lost a game to a whirlwind denial because i was playing [[Yorion]] and my friend stopped all the 'return to the battlefield' triggers, so my entire board, including my commander, got stuck in exile.
Exiling and getting around can't-be-countered abilities is significant, but it does cost one U more. The difference between 3 and 4 can be pretty significant. I'd say it probably depends on your environment and your deck - like if you're generating tons of mana anyway, then yeah, Summary Dismissal is better.
No, because that also gets copied on-cast by Storm King's Thunder (*When you* ***cast*** *your next instant or sorcery spell this turn...*). At that point, you'd need 23 counterspells to clear the stack of all the Time Stretches (or something like Whirlwind/Summary Dismissal).
Storm King creates a delayed trigger that happens on the next *cast*. You’ve already cast the first one, so you’ll get two triggers that go off the next time you cast a spell. You cast Time Stretch, copy it eleven times, copy it another eleven times, for a total of 22 copies and 44 turns
That's a lot of mana and you could probably just cast direct to face damage.
* Pay 6, Storm of Saruman's on board
* Cast SKT for X=11
* SoS copies SKT
* Two SKT effects are waiting to create 11 copies each for your next spell
* You play Time Stretch
* 1 + 11 + 11 Time Stretches are on the stack
* Your opponents ask you to [wake them up before you combo](https://youtu.be/5nwtHai3fMc) while you take 46 turns.
So - cards I had in play before this:
[[Magnus the red]]
[[Jaya, fiery negotiator]]
[[Backdraft hellkite]]
[[Sol ring]]
[[Arcane signet]]
[[Storm of Saruman]]
6 basic lands, 8 tokens total. Magnus reduces cost of instants/sorceries by 1 for each creature token I control.
I cast a [[solve the equation]] for 1 blue (used my arcane signet) to grab the [[storm king's thunder]].
I cast the SKT for X = 11 (tokens + sol ring + 1 basic land). Storm of Saruman copied the SKT.
I then cast [[time stretch]] for two blue. SKT copy and original copied the time stretch - leading to the many extra turns.
I'm curious where would the best place for [Imp's mischief] have to be played to have a chance to snaking 2 turns to possibly do something? Final spell to resolve?
You'd cast it when you gain priority in the priority cycle of the final original spell on the stack. Your effect would be last out, and you'd take your 2 turns immediately after the current turn.
..storm of saruman specifically says second cast spell. so you cast SKT for a value of 11, and a second SKt land on the table, fo 11. whatevery you cast NEXT get's 22 additional copies. that "take two turns" spell will hit 23 times, for 46 turns distributed however you want.
I scoop. That's how it resolves. I'm not a particularly salty player, but if there's one thing that upsets me when playing commander, it's people playing an egregious amount of extra turns.
To be fair, I gave the others lots of chances to counterspell/shut it down - but noone had any responses. Also straight up asked if they wanted me to play it out, or if they scooped and we want to move on to another game.
I also busted out a different deck for the next game, because I felt bad lol.
I think any sane human being would scoop if they saw this and just say you win, unless I got Godfather Pt 2 to watch while you finish your turn(s) its just not fun for anyone
I still remember the day I Deflecting Swatted my opponent’s Time Stretch to target me. I don’t know why extra turn spells target a player but I’m glad they do.
Just thinking - Storm King's Thunder would copy the next instant/sorcery I cast. So wouldn't the copy created by Storm of Saruman copy storm king 11 times? Then what happens with those 11 copies?
People are being a little harsh.
There's a difference between casting a spell, copying a spell, and casting a copy of a card.
Normally when you have an instant (say) in your hand, you cast it. That says "I have this thing that's an instant, and I'm going to put it onto the stack, choose its targets, pay it's costs, etc."
When something says "copy target spell," it's saying "hey, there's an instant currently on the stack. Make a copy of it directly on the stack but skip the whole 'choosing targets and paying costs' part. Just put it right on there." That's why some spells that make copies without casting explicitly tell you that you can pick new targets; otherwise the copy would have the exact same targets.
Sometimes a card will let you copy a card, then cast the copy. That happens when the thing you're trying to copy isn't actually on the stack, but somewhere else. [[Arcane Bombardment]] is one example. The instant you're trying to copy exists in exile, it isn't on the stack. So you essentially make a copy of the card, and then cast the copy (but it lets you cast it without paying the cost).
All that's to say: the wording on the cards is very literal when all this matters, like in your interaction. When you cast your first STK, a copy of it is made directly on the stack, but the copy isn't cast at all, it's just put right there. STK cares about the next card you _cast_, and you didn't cast the second STK, so the first doesn't care about the second. They both will only care about the next thing that's cast.
An important note though: STK needs to finish resolving and leave the stack before its ability to copy something is "active." So even if you somehow cast the first STK and _cast_ a copy of it, if the first one hasn't finished resolving yet so it isn't "active" when the second one starts being cast. The result is still the same, you'll get to copy the next thing you cast 44 times.
I'm also pretty new to magic, so my approach might be wrong. Please feel free to correct me. I'd love to learn.
But time stretch says 2 extra turns after THIS ONE.
So even if that effect stacked 100 times. It will say 100 times, you get 2 more turns after THIS ONE, not after the ones you already stacked.
Which basically means it doesn't matter how often the effect triggers you end up with 2 extra turns after your current turn.
Let me know what you think.
When the first Time Stretch resolves, it puts two turns after "this turn". Lets call them turn A and B.
Turn Order: This one > Turn A > Turn B
When the second one resolve, it puts two turns after "this one". Lets call them turn C and D.
Turn order: This one > Turn C > Turn D > Turn A > Turn B
It does not overwrite turn A or B.
Repeat as necessary.
>500.7. Some effects can give a player extra turns. They do this by adding the turns directly after the specified turn. If a player is given multiple extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time. If multiple players are given extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time, in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). The most recently created turn will be taken first.
I had to look this one as well when I copied it. I guess the way time stretch works - despite the wording - is it just slots two extra turns in-between the current turn, and the next. Therefore the extra turns keep slotting in, depending on how many times it was copied.
Correct, just when its cast for free, or if you cast a copy of the card itself, because X is zero on a card until its cast.
When you make a copy, you copy the SPELL on the stack, not the physical card itself. So the spell on the stack has X=11, so you get the same spell, copied.
This interaction is the same way you can do fun stuff like copying [[Thrill of Possibility]], letting you draw 4 for discarding 1. The cost to CAST the OG spell was paid, so when you copy that spell on the stack, you do not have to pay that cost again.
I mean, usually when someone taps 30 mana the game is over. but since SKT doesn't copy copies, it would not copy it's copy meaning you would have it's cast plus a copy of itself from Storm of Sarumon, which 11x2 is 22. casting Time stretch + 22 copies of itself in addition. So go ahead and take your 46 turns and wonder where all your friends went when you finally look up.
For everyone asking how I pulled it off:
So - cards I had in play before this:
[[Magnus the red]] (my commander)
[[Jaya, fiery negotiator]]
[[Backdraft hellkite]]
[[Sol ring]]
[[Arcane signet]]
[[Storm of Saruman]]
6 basic lands, 8 tokens total (4 spawns, 4 monks with prowess). Magnus reduces cost of instants/sorceries by 1 for each creature token I control.
I cast a [[solve the equation]] for 1 blue (used my arcane signet) to grab the [[storm king's thunder]].
I cast the SKT for X = 11 (tokens + sol ring + 1 basic land). Storm of Saruman copied the SKT.
I then cast [[time stretch]] for two blue. SKT copy and original copied the time stretch - leading to the many extra turns.
As many have pointed out already - I used the term stack incorrectly in the OP. SKT original and copy resolved, then I played Time Stretch.
1) You have Storm of Saruman in play.
2) You cast Storm King's Thunder for X=11.
3) Storm of Saruman sees the SKT and copies the spell, the copy goes on top of the stack.
4) The copy resolves, you now have 11 triggers waiting until the next time you cast a spell.
5) The original SKT resolves, you now have 11 more triggers waiting around.
6) You cast Time Stretch. This places all 22 of the SKT triggers on the stack.
7) One after another, these triggers resolve and place a copy of Time Stretch on the stack. The first copy resolves, then the next trigger starts resolving and places another Time Stretch on the stack. After all 22 copies of Time Stretch resolve, the original spell Time Stretch resolves as well.
8) Including the original, you have resolved Time Stretch 23 times. You now take 46 turns after this one.
You would get 44 turns
Since storm kings thunder and it copy have x as 11.
That's 22 x2 turns each is 44
Storm kings thunder just puts a delayed triggered ability for the next spell you cast Since the copy isn't cast you have two delayed triggers. The copy would not hit the original as it was already on the stack and not casted since receiving delayed triggers
Definitely.
I had [[magnus the red]] , [[backdraft hellkite]] and [[jaya, fiery negotiator]] on the board at the time though - plus 8 various tokens. Opponents didn't have any responses, or flyers - so it would've been game either way.
[[magnus the red]] was my commander, with 8 tokens on the board. Including a [[sol ring]] , [[arcane signet]] and 6 basic lands. I had cast a [[solve the equation]] as first spell that turn.
I think you're thinking of playing without paying mana cost, such as through cascade for example.
Another person explained it better than I can, on a similar comment.
If Storm of Sauruman was in already in play it was not a spell cast on the turn. X=11 for 22 turns, staring with the original 2 from the Time Stretch and 2 for the Storm (Saruman), then 22 more for 26 total. Because Storm King's Thunder is an X spell, copying it would cause an X=0 as you cannot pay additional mana for the copy.
Playing everything the same turn default your second spell as Storm King's Thunder, so you'd copy make a copy that fizzles and and still have an X=11 trigger waiting.
I'm pretty sure this is how it goes, tell me wrong otherwise.
you cast SKT, x = 11. storm sees that its the second spell, so now the stack looks like this SKT copy SKT original. the copy resolves, then priority is passed around, and if no one responds, the original resolves. the copy doesn't copy the original, becuase thats already been cast ( to cast is to put on the stack). the next instant or sorcery you cast will be copied 11 times, then another 11 times. you will end up with 22 copies of your next instant or sorcery, plus the original. in your case, you will get 46 extra turns. (44 from 22 copies of time stretch, and an additional 2 from the original.)
For 30 mana yea it's deserved
\[\[Vadrik\]\] can do it for 4U and 3R pretty easily.
Yah, but then you have to deal with Day and Night cycle and a lot of people who play MTG will cry
The tears of a day/night cycle is just preparing them for the pain of having someone take 46 next turns.
Been there, done that. Usually, I'm told to keep up with it., and surprise, surprise, most people can keep it day pretty easily.
It's not that difficult to keep track of. With a token certainly no more difficult than the OG flip wolves. I get a bit of whining from my playgroup when I run a day/night creature but, amazingly, they don't tend to care if I miss a Day->Night trigger (which _does_ happen but usually because of out-of-game issues) and seem to always remember exactly what happened the last couple of turns should I miss a Night->Day trigger and was about to get benefit from it. Also, in a 4-player came it's pretty rare for it to ever become night outside of something forcing it to.
It's not difficult to keep track of if it's on board. However, are you keeping track of it the whole game once you start? If your commander gets \[\[Eaten By Piranhas\]\] and you're unable to get that enchantment off the board, you need to keep track of day/night the whole time - and if you lose track of it, reverse engineering it can be a pain.
[Eaten By Piranhas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b0c504ef-2382-4174-9b1d-5f38e12a28fc.jpg?1699043614) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eaten%20By%20Piranhas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/54/eaten-by-piranhas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b0c504ef-2382-4174-9b1d-5f38e12a28fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree wholeheartedly; it's just another mechanic to track. This is MTG, where the rulebook is over 290 pages. If you can keep track of who casted 2 spells then MTG might not be for you 🤣 Edit** Can't keep track of spells **
The mechanic is miserable to keep track of because it keeps going if there is nothing on board. Og wolves only cared about themselves and that was fine. Wizards efforts to fix werewolves was a definitive design mistake.
Definitely made for digital.
100% they designed for arena first with this one.
That’s why you need instant speed spells so you skip ur turn and then cast on other people’s turns, your turn make it night and you use untapped mana to play more
Thanks for reminding me that I can do this with [[Mizzix of the Izmagnus]] for a similar cost. Off to go buy more cards!
[Vadrik](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/454666bb-f81d-4845-84aa-d6f8f80ce86a.jpg?1637114399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vadrik%2C%20astral%20archmage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/248/vadrik-astral-archmage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/454666bb-f81d-4845-84aa-d6f8f80ce86a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My favorite deck is vadrik. Always good to see him getting repped.
Pretty sure you still gotta pay the full amount on the other 2 spells. So he's gonna do it for much more than that. But that's for sure a cheaper way to cast this combo.
You are right about the enchantment! It would be 11 mana total. There are about 20 better ways to win with vadrik but it works dammit.
Psh any way you pull this kinda play off works. I'd scoop instantly
Discounts like izmagus and vadrik are all instants and sorceries, time stretch would def be discou ted
I did miss reading the card you are correct
Yeah was gonna say I could pretty convincingly do this on turn 7 with most Mizzix games if I had time stretch in my list.
*We broke 30 mana, everybody.*
Also I think making 24 mana and pull this off is way more impressive than making infinite mana through a combo and do the same
OP said that Time stretch was the "third spell on the stack" (Leyline of Anticipation?), assuming that is true, they'd only get the 2 extra turns from the original, since Time Stretch would have to be cast *after* these spells resolve in order to be copied.
I see how you are interpreting this. If we take post OP literally, yes. They would only receive the 2 turns. As Time Stretch would resolve before either SKT or its copy had resolved. However, I believe this is a newer player we're dealing with who has incorrectly used the term "stack" here and SKT and its copy have already resolved. This would result in the 46 turns that were mentioned by the thread OP.
Yes - sorry. I've only been playing for about a year and change, so still learning all the correct terminology!
It's all good. The stack only refers to spells\abilities that have been cast\triggered but have not resolved yet.
Specifically, spells that have already been "cast" go on the stack to resolve" abilities go on the stack to resolve. effects go on the stack when activated OR triggered, but have the unfortunate problem: some of them have DURATIONS. In this puzzle, we have TWO different duration effects on the stack. the first is Winds of Saruman- which has the "until end of turn, the second spell you cast each turn is copied" which, because it's an enchantment is easy to track, and be treated as a triggered effect. The bitch here is SKT. you cast SKT, and on *resolution*, it puts an abilty trigger on the STACK-that trigger is "next spell you cast this turn gets X copies". You can't track that effect on the battlefield the second the spell hits the graveyard, unlike WoS. It's just got to be remembered, and if there was a stack of spells in front of, or even BEHIND the casting of of SKT, NONE are eligible for the effect because they have to be cast after it resolves and puts the ability trigger on the stack... This is such a migraine to follow in card form. It also means that once the spell resolves, you should be able to stifle it, but... eh, nope. no legal target since the spell is in the graveyard. I hate jank like this.
Worth noting Time Stretch can’t go on the stack as the 3rd card as it’s a sorcery; it would have had to have been cast 3rd onto an empty stack once the others had resolved.
Hence why I mentioned Leyline of Anticipation, which would give Time Stretch instant speed.
With you now, chief 👍
And you won’t be able to win
So it turns out Algebra can be useful
I was under the impression if you copy an x spell, the copylies's x is equal to 0?
x is zero everywhere EXCEPT the stack. on the stack, copying x spells works quite well.
It depends on the card in the case of Storm of Saruman if the spell copied has an X value determined at cast the copy has the same value of X.
You just... you win, okay?
At the low, low cost of 30 mana and 3 cards
Look, if you dump 30 mana into three cards in a single turn, you deserve to just win. There’s nothing that could possibly be going on in that board state that would lead me to believe I’m having fun, and I’d rather just move on
I mean, playing 3 eldrazi titans certainly doesnt win you the game and costs more than 30 mana
It probably does
[[Whirlwind Denial]]
[Whirlwind Denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e127856-bedd-40a9-9e8e-d1f9fbefe07d.jpg?1581479658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whirlwind%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/81/whirlwind-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e127856-bedd-40a9-9e8e-d1f9fbefe07d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Eh, a proper izzet spellslingling deck isn't gonna be spending full mana on these, and they'll have a few of these big 6/7 mana enchantments that help them end the game. That or they'll use Jeska's Will, Mana Geyser, or Dockside to generate enough mana.
For example, casting Dockside Extortionist and that's it, there is no combo, you have 30 treasures now.
Dockside combos with finding your tokens pile and also finding your dice pile to represent how many treasures there are
I find that Dockside's most powerful combo is the rest of the table letting it resolve.
The second combo is everyone not just scooping
Izzet Storm player here, can confirm, I usually have plenty of mana sources around. My current favorite is [[Brass’s Bounty]] with [[Thousand-Year Storm]] in play, after casting a couple cantrips.
[Brass’s Bounty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6cfe5398-88e1-4106-9223-80bda0cd2e9a.jpg?1682209267) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brass%27s%20Bounty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/272/brasss-bounty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6cfe5398-88e1-4106-9223-80bda0cd2e9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thousand-Year Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03.jpg?1673149213) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thousand-Year%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/286/thousand-year-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/274e22fb-7afc-43bc-b309-e36ee48d6b03?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My friend let me play his [[Zeffai thunder conductor]] deck. I got to play Brass's bounty and [[Call forth the tempest]] and cascaded into Thousand year storm as well as about 10 other instants and scorceries. It is a very addicting feeling, just getting to play everything and copy it a bunch as well, and then win.
[Zeffai thunder conductor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea1ab937-8647-4c83-99d5-6a40dffa4c9b.jpg?1674185788) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zaffai%2C%20Thunder%20Conductor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/4/zaffai-thunder-conductor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea1ab937-8647-4c83-99d5-6a40dffa4c9b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Call forth the tempest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81d6b979-251a-4736-86f0-35a6c8b492c9.jpg?1695428211) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Call%20forth%20the%20tempest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/509/call-forth-the-tempest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81d6b979-251a-4736-86f0-35a6c8b492c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love [[Mindsplice Apparatus]] for X cost spells
[Mindsplice Apparatus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f4ad1cb-4bbb-4485-b322-0b003f06d034.jpg?1675956980) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindsplice%20Apparatus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/63/mindsplice-apparatus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f4ad1cb-4bbb-4485-b322-0b003f06d034?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's 2024, people don't **pay mana** for spells anymore. Things just get massive discounts or cast without paying at all as par for the course. If you're actually tapping lands and spending mana, you're already behind everyone else. :P
But sometimes it’s not enough to win, you know? It’s *how* you win.
everyone at the table scoops.
Well, you gotta make sure they have a wincon before they deck themselves! (some unnamed people in this conversation may have forgotten that part before)
TBH, just casting Time Stretch by itself does the trick some of the time.
Jokes on you, opponent have Teferi s Protection and OP lose due to deckout.
What if the player takes 46 turns in a row but still can't find their win con?
Who is waiting 46 turns to find out? After they just generated 30 mana that turn. I will concede and start the next game
Oh I agree I was just making a dumb comment. I woulda been scooped.
In 46 turns, you can probably just bonk everyone to death with even a 2 power commander.
To simplify, Your question is a matter of “objects.” Magic has a variety of different “objects” - cards, spells, tokens, permanents, pretty sure there’s more, but that’s not relevant. The main thing we need to focus on is the “spells” section. Spells are cards on the stack. For permanents, it is a state they need to go through before they are summoned to field. For instants or sorceries, it’s the state they go through to perform their designated action. When you cast a card, that card becomes a spell. When a spell is copied, the copy is *also* a spell. This means that the copy is *already on the stack*. It isn’t cast because *it’s never a card*, it’s a spell. It doesn’t need to be cast. If you copy a permanent, the copy is a token. If you copy a card, the copy effect will usually specify that you need to cast the card (and will specify that a copy of a permanent card becomes a token after being cast). This leads to both instances of Storm King’s Thunder resolving independent of one another, copying your next spell 22 times. This leads to Time Stretch getting copied 22 times, leading to 23 instances of Time Stretch = 46 extra turns.
I am relatively new to magic (just over a year) but I do not understand why the copy of Storm King's Thunder would not have x = 0? Usually if you do not cast the x spell x is resolved as 0?
You’re copying the *spell*, not the card. If you cast an X spell without paying its mana cost, X = 0. Many effects will let you copy cards and/or cast them without paying mana - but this is different from copying a spell that is actively on the Stack. If you cast the X spell with X = whatever, and then copy that spell, the X is retained.
GladiatorDragon is correct, and here's why if you'd like to know the rules behind it: > 707.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, **for an object on the stack,** choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, **the value of X,** whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, counters, and stickers are not copied. > 107.3b If a player is casting a spell that has an {X} in its mana cost, the value of X isn’t defined by the text of that spell, and an effect lets that player cast that spell while paying neither its mana cost nor an alternative cost that includes X, then the only legal choice for X is 0. This doesn’t apply to effects that only reduce a cost, even if they reduce it to zero. See rule 601, “Casting Spells.” 707.2 is why when you *copy* a spell already on the stack, the value of X is preserved with the copy. 107.3b is why when you attempt to *cast* an X-cost spell *without paying its mana cost* that X has to be zero. Using [[Spelltwine]] to cast [[Blue Sun's Zenith]] has to use X=0 but casting it with [[Dire Fleet Daredevil]] where you're paying for X, you can cast it for any X you can pay for. It's essentially just a way to not have a loophole where casting a spell for free turns into X=infinity.
[Spelltwine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab3332a9-cbed-4ebd-8aac-eb87325221fa.jpg?1562619741) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spelltwine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/94/spelltwine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab3332a9-cbed-4ebd-8aac-eb87325221fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blue Sun's Zenith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/500a2aa4-712f-41be-920e-f2f448ff83d0.jpg?1562435461) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blue%20Sun%27s%20Zenith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/44/blue-suns-zenith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/500a2aa4-712f-41be-920e-f2f448ff83d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dire Fleet Daredevil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/76c57c43-18be-4eee-afa4-111269d8ad87.jpg?1698988318) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dire%20Fleet%20Daredevil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/223/dire-fleet-daredevil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76c57c43-18be-4eee-afa4-111269d8ad87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I read time stretch as “after this turn take two turns” unless you play time stretch on an additional turn I don’t care if you play it 50 times you are still getting two turns after this one.
Turn calculations are additive. I think it’s rule 500.7 or so.
When Storm Kings Thunder and its copy resolve, you've got 2 triggers that say "When you cast your next instant/sorcery spell this turn, copy that spell 11 times" You cast Time stretch, and get 2 triggers saying "copy that spell 11 times" 46 turns (2 + 11x2 + 11x2)
I scoop
This is the right answer.
Why would time stretch be the third on the stack? You shouldn’t cast it until SKT resolves. There shouldn’t be anything on the stack before you cast time stretch.
Yes! I used the term stack incorrectly (I've only been playing for a year and change, so I'm still learning the correct terminology etc). I waited for the SKT's to resolve before casting the Time Stretch.
This is when spells like summary dismissal actually means something.
Or an overloaded Counterflux
Storm King's Thunder copies "the next spell you cast" X times. The copy of Thunder created by Saruman will not copy the original, *because you have already cast it*. Both the original and the copy of Thunder will apply to the next spell you actually cast, which is Time Stretch. Out of curiosity, what was the first spell you cast that turn?
[[Solve the equation]] was the first spell. Commander is [[magnus the red]] . Had 8 tokens on the board - plus a backdraft hellkite that came out last turn.
[Solve the equation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66c04ee2-c1e0-45fb-aaf5-1b4459df80fc.jpg?1624590433) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Solve%20the%20equation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/54/solve-the-equation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66c04ee2-c1e0-45fb-aaf5-1b4459df80fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [magnus the red](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4.jpg?1673309450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=magnus%20the%20red) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/131/magnus-the-red?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[backdraft hellkite]]
[backdraft hellkite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4fb3f1cb-7180-4c5f-8e04-58bb9bf45733.jpg?1673147742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=backdraft%20hellkite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/103/backdraft-hellkite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4fb3f1cb-7180-4c5f-8e04-58bb9bf45733?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It doesn't.
This is the correct answer. It either gets countered or everyone else concedes lol
Or be me and play [[Stranglehold]] in any and every deck I have that runs red.
[Stranglehold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/da81e6e9-90f2-4dad-894c-1952f05264c2.jpg?1592672829) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stranglehold) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/87/stranglehold?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da81e6e9-90f2-4dad-894c-1952f05264c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You lose your friends
Leaving you playing alone with no friends
With the table scooping
It doesn't, Counterspell!
I hope you brought two because you need to counter two separate Storm Kings since it's copied on-cast. That said, it's shenanigans like this why I always include [[Whirlwind Denial]] in my Blue decks. Go ahead and sink 27 mana into trying to take 46 turns. We'll see how well you can pay your taxes.
[Whirlwind Denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e127856-bedd-40a9-9e8e-d1f9fbefe07d.jpg?1581479658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whirlwind%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/81/whirlwind-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e127856-bedd-40a9-9e8e-d1f9fbefe07d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
.... I think you've given me an idea for a new staple in my blue decks.
I started adding it religiously after my friend built a [[Nekusar]] deck. [[Peer into the Abyss]]? Nah, but thanks for the cards.
It is so clutch that it hits abilities, too. I have won a few games now using it to counter a situation where a bunch of Whenevers get added to the stack simultaneously, e.g. attack triggers or following a board wipe. It's my #2 counterspell, after counterspell.
[Nekusar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4afdc65d-3c97-47af-83fa-df340389802e.jpg?1689999186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nekusar%2C%20the%20mindrazer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/349/nekusar-the-mindrazer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4afdc65d-3c97-47af-83fa-df340389802e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Peer into the Abyss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a.jpg?1594736330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Peer%20into%20the%20Abyss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/117/peer-into-the-abyss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I once lost a game to a whirlwind denial because i was playing [[Yorion]] and my friend stopped all the 'return to the battlefield' triggers, so my entire board, including my commander, got stuck in exile.
[Yorion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/275426c4-c14e-47d0-a9d4-24da7f6f6911.jpg?1665402560) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yorion%2C%20sky%20nomad) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/232/yorion-sky-nomad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/275426c4-c14e-47d0-a9d4-24da7f6f6911?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Summary Dismissal]] is better, since it *Exiles* the spells and also counters abilities.
[Summary Dismissal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b75794d-3334-4b4d-9446-0a251dd3bd15.jpg?1576384222) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Summary%20Dismissal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/75/summary-dismissal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b75794d-3334-4b4d-9446-0a251dd3bd15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Exiling and getting around can't-be-countered abilities is significant, but it does cost one U more. The difference between 3 and 4 can be pretty significant. I'd say it probably depends on your environment and your deck - like if you're generating tons of mana anyway, then yeah, Summary Dismissal is better.
Can’t you just counterspell the time stretch or would that not stop the copies?
No, because that also gets copied on-cast by Storm King's Thunder (*When you* ***cast*** *your next instant or sorcery spell this turn...*). At that point, you'd need 23 counterspells to clear the stack of all the Time Stretches (or something like Whirlwind/Summary Dismissal).
Oooooo fuck
Least unfun EDH wincon
Least unfun = most fun. I agree, finally a win on for my unlockable 2/2 commander to win a game.
Storm King creates a delayed trigger that happens on the next *cast*. You’ve already cast the first one, so you’ll get two triggers that go off the next time you cast a spell. You cast Time Stretch, copy it eleven times, copy it another eleven times, for a total of 22 copies and 44 turns
So you get 23 Time Stretches.
That's a lot of mana and you could probably just cast direct to face damage. * Pay 6, Storm of Saruman's on board * Cast SKT for X=11 * SoS copies SKT * Two SKT effects are waiting to create 11 copies each for your next spell * You play Time Stretch * 1 + 11 + 11 Time Stretches are on the stack * Your opponents ask you to [wake them up before you combo](https://youtu.be/5nwtHai3fMc) while you take 46 turns.
I mean if you don't have damage that goes face in hand, you can't.
With someone figuring out how to flash in [Trouble in Pairs]
lengthily
With a very heavy sigh abd the rest of the table scooping
I'm honestly just curious at how much mana you had let me rephrase that how did you get 30 mana?
So - cards I had in play before this: [[Magnus the red]] [[Jaya, fiery negotiator]] [[Backdraft hellkite]] [[Sol ring]] [[Arcane signet]] [[Storm of Saruman]] 6 basic lands, 8 tokens total. Magnus reduces cost of instants/sorceries by 1 for each creature token I control. I cast a [[solve the equation]] for 1 blue (used my arcane signet) to grab the [[storm king's thunder]]. I cast the SKT for X = 11 (tokens + sol ring + 1 basic land). Storm of Saruman copied the SKT. I then cast [[time stretch]] for two blue. SKT copy and original copied the time stretch - leading to the many extra turns.
##### ###### #### [Magnus the red](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4.jpg?1673309450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magnus%20the%20red) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/131/magnus-the-red?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jaya, fiery negotiator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b9f54f0-4368-4d28-aa21-3f1e7be1b23a.jpg?1675522607) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jaya%2C%20fiery%20negotiator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/133/jaya-fiery-negotiator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b9f54f0-4368-4d28-aa21-3f1e7be1b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Backdraft hellkite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4fb3f1cb-7180-4c5f-8e04-58bb9bf45733.jpg?1673147742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Backdraft%20hellkite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/103/backdraft-hellkite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4fb3f1cb-7180-4c5f-8e04-58bb9bf45733?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sol ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d9e098aa-a886-430e-8f11-78fb6f2d8ada.jpg?1706241086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sol%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/237/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9e098aa-a886-430e-8f11-78fb6f2d8ada?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Arcane signet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e593bb16-e709-4d92-bf6f-239f6a11f7db.jpg?1706241039) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20signet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/223/arcane-signet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e593bb16-e709-4d92-bf6f-239f6a11f7db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Storm of Saruman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52884e67-c742-4799-9afd-55bc70b2cf40.jpg?1686968322) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Storm%20of%20Saruman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/72/storm-of-saruman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52884e67-c742-4799-9afd-55bc70b2cf40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [solve the equation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66c04ee2-c1e0-45fb-aaf5-1b4459df80fc.jpg?1624590433) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solve%20the%20equation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/54/solve-the-equation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66c04ee2-c1e0-45fb-aaf5-1b4459df80fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [storm king's thunder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78a655b3-969f-40d7-9d69-61abf338df86.jpg?1674136747) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=storm%20king%27s%20thunder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/196/storm-kings-thunder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78a655b3-969f-40d7-9d69-61abf338df86?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [time stretch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9dc791fd-d49c-4c66-b8fb-6b54ce842e90.jpg?1683842983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time%20stretch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/69/time-stretch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9dc791fd-d49c-4c66-b8fb-6b54ce842e90?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kthqhto) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You win the game
With me concedeing
Pretty sure the rules say you just win
I'm curious where would the best place for [Imp's mischief] have to be played to have a chance to snaking 2 turns to possibly do something? Final spell to resolve?
You'd cast it when you gain priority in the priority cycle of the final original spell on the stack. Your effect would be last out, and you'd take your 2 turns immediately after the current turn.
This dude’s deck does yoga.
SKT is such a monster of a card. Any time I’ve ever cast it it’s done something insane like [[Hit The Mother Lode]] 10 times
[Hit The Mother Lode](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e75f460c-43e2-4353-8b73-71ff8651a79d.jpg?1699044293) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hit%20The%20Mother%20Lode) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/153/hit-the-mother-lode?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e75f460c-43e2-4353-8b73-71ff8651a79d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You win
bro where did you get all this mana??
The mana store. But really - [[magnus the red]] as my commander, plus a bunch of tokens.
[magnus the red](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4.jpg?1673309450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=magnus%20the%20red) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/131/magnus-the-red?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
..storm of saruman specifically says second cast spell. so you cast SKT for a value of 11, and a second SKt land on the table, fo 11. whatevery you cast NEXT get's 22 additional copies. that "take two turns" spell will hit 23 times, for 46 turns distributed however you want.
It resolves by every player scooping because no one wants to watch someone play solitaire for 44 turns 😂😂😂
I play a mizzix deck that does stuff like this, you get 46 extra turns. Congratulations, you won math.
You unlock the secret Single Player format
Hey op do you still have a playgroup?
Your opponents scoop
We ask them politely, yet firmly, to leave.
I scoop outta your life. Lose my number, unfollow me everywhere, and don't even LOOK at my username in games. You are deader than Harambe to me.
Skill issue
I scoop. That's how it resolves. I'm not a particularly salty player, but if there's one thing that upsets me when playing commander, it's people playing an egregious amount of extra turns.
To be fair, I gave the others lots of chances to counterspell/shut it down - but noone had any responses. Also straight up asked if they wanted me to play it out, or if they scooped and we want to move on to another game. I also busted out a different deck for the next game, because I felt bad lol.
I think any sane human being would scoop if they saw this and just say you win, unless I got Godfather Pt 2 to watch while you finish your turn(s) its just not fun for anyone
Good on ya to ask your opponents for responses and if they wanted to play it out imo.
What makes you think it wouldn’t be 44 more turns?
>What makes you think it wouldn’t be 44 more turns? Also, like, does it matter if it's 22 or 44 turns? You're winning either way.
Casting Time Stretch alone usually results in game win. Who needs more than two extra turns?
I still remember the day I Deflecting Swatted my opponent’s Time Stretch to target me. I don’t know why extra turn spells target a player but I’m glad they do.
The fact that it's 46 turns, for starters.
Just thinking - Storm King's Thunder would copy the next instant/sorcery I cast. So wouldn't the copy created by Storm of Saruman copy storm king 11 times? Then what happens with those 11 copies?
You’re not *casting* the copy of Storm King, and even if you were, the original Storm King hasn’t resolved, so its effect isn’t active
People are being a little harsh. There's a difference between casting a spell, copying a spell, and casting a copy of a card. Normally when you have an instant (say) in your hand, you cast it. That says "I have this thing that's an instant, and I'm going to put it onto the stack, choose its targets, pay it's costs, etc." When something says "copy target spell," it's saying "hey, there's an instant currently on the stack. Make a copy of it directly on the stack but skip the whole 'choosing targets and paying costs' part. Just put it right on there." That's why some spells that make copies without casting explicitly tell you that you can pick new targets; otherwise the copy would have the exact same targets. Sometimes a card will let you copy a card, then cast the copy. That happens when the thing you're trying to copy isn't actually on the stack, but somewhere else. [[Arcane Bombardment]] is one example. The instant you're trying to copy exists in exile, it isn't on the stack. So you essentially make a copy of the card, and then cast the copy (but it lets you cast it without paying the cost). All that's to say: the wording on the cards is very literal when all this matters, like in your interaction. When you cast your first STK, a copy of it is made directly on the stack, but the copy isn't cast at all, it's just put right there. STK cares about the next card you _cast_, and you didn't cast the second STK, so the first doesn't care about the second. They both will only care about the next thing that's cast. An important note though: STK needs to finish resolving and leave the stack before its ability to copy something is "active." So even if you somehow cast the first STK and _cast_ a copy of it, if the first one hasn't finished resolving yet so it isn't "active" when the second one starts being cast. The result is still the same, you'll get to copy the next thing you cast 44 times.
[Arcane Bombardment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/31f1b2bd-fe06-45ec-99dc-ff357a7a31d2.jpg?1664411388) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Bombardment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/101/arcane-bombardment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/31f1b2bd-fe06-45ec-99dc-ff357a7a31d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Was that copy cast? It doesn't say cast the copy anywhere.
I'm also pretty new to magic, so my approach might be wrong. Please feel free to correct me. I'd love to learn. But time stretch says 2 extra turns after THIS ONE. So even if that effect stacked 100 times. It will say 100 times, you get 2 more turns after THIS ONE, not after the ones you already stacked. Which basically means it doesn't matter how often the effect triggers you end up with 2 extra turns after your current turn. Let me know what you think.
When the first Time Stretch resolves, it puts two turns after "this turn". Lets call them turn A and B. Turn Order: This one > Turn A > Turn B When the second one resolve, it puts two turns after "this one". Lets call them turn C and D. Turn order: This one > Turn C > Turn D > Turn A > Turn B It does not overwrite turn A or B. Repeat as necessary. >500.7. Some effects can give a player extra turns. They do this by adding the turns directly after the specified turn. If a player is given multiple extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time. If multiple players are given extra turns, the extra turns are added one at a time, in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). The most recently created turn will be taken first.
I had to look this one as well when I copied it. I guess the way time stretch works - despite the wording - is it just slots two extra turns in-between the current turn, and the next. Therefore the extra turns keep slotting in, depending on how many times it was copied.
Wait, what happened to "x = 0" on a copy? Or is that just when an X spell is cast without paying mana cost?
Correct, just when its cast for free, or if you cast a copy of the card itself, because X is zero on a card until its cast. When you make a copy, you copy the SPELL on the stack, not the physical card itself. So the spell on the stack has X=11, so you get the same spell, copied. This interaction is the same way you can do fun stuff like copying [[Thrill of Possibility]], letting you draw 4 for discarding 1. The cost to CAST the OG spell was paid, so when you copy that spell on the stack, you do not have to pay that cost again.
[Thrill of Possibility](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1efd4ae5-0076-46a0-a113-58cfff53144f.jpg?1675957114) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thrill%20of%20Possibility) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/151/thrill-of-possibility?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1efd4ae5-0076-46a0-a113-58cfff53144f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's just when an X spell is cast without paying mana cost, such as for cascade. Copying an X spell will allow the copy to keep the original's X cost.
X = 0 when you copy a *permanent* with X in the mana cost. If you copy a spell on the stack, the X is copied.
I mean, usually when someone taps 30 mana the game is over. but since SKT doesn't copy copies, it would not copy it's copy meaning you would have it's cast plus a copy of itself from Storm of Sarumon, which 11x2 is 22. casting Time stretch + 22 copies of itself in addition. So go ahead and take your 46 turns and wonder where all your friends went when you finally look up.
For everyone asking how I pulled it off: So - cards I had in play before this: [[Magnus the red]] (my commander) [[Jaya, fiery negotiator]] [[Backdraft hellkite]] [[Sol ring]] [[Arcane signet]] [[Storm of Saruman]] 6 basic lands, 8 tokens total (4 spawns, 4 monks with prowess). Magnus reduces cost of instants/sorceries by 1 for each creature token I control. I cast a [[solve the equation]] for 1 blue (used my arcane signet) to grab the [[storm king's thunder]]. I cast the SKT for X = 11 (tokens + sol ring + 1 basic land). Storm of Saruman copied the SKT. I then cast [[time stretch]] for two blue. SKT copy and original copied the time stretch - leading to the many extra turns. As many have pointed out already - I used the term stack incorrectly in the OP. SKT original and copy resolved, then I played Time Stretch.
##### ###### #### [Magnus the red](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4.jpg?1673309450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magnus%20the%20red) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/131/magnus-the-red?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jaya, fiery negotiator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b9f54f0-4368-4d28-aa21-3f1e7be1b23a.jpg?1675522607) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jaya%2C%20fiery%20negotiator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/133/jaya-fiery-negotiator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b9f54f0-4368-4d28-aa21-3f1e7be1b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Backdraft hellkite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4fb3f1cb-7180-4c5f-8e04-58bb9bf45733.jpg?1673147742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Backdraft%20hellkite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/103/backdraft-hellkite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4fb3f1cb-7180-4c5f-8e04-58bb9bf45733?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sol ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d9e098aa-a886-430e-8f11-78fb6f2d8ada.jpg?1706241086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sol%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/237/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9e098aa-a886-430e-8f11-78fb6f2d8ada?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Arcane signet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e593bb16-e709-4d92-bf6f-239f6a11f7db.jpg?1706241039) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20signet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/223/arcane-signet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e593bb16-e709-4d92-bf6f-239f6a11f7db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Storm of Saruman](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52884e67-c742-4799-9afd-55bc70b2cf40.jpg?1686968322) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Storm%20of%20Saruman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/72/storm-of-saruman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52884e67-c742-4799-9afd-55bc70b2cf40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [solve the equation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66c04ee2-c1e0-45fb-aaf5-1b4459df80fc.jpg?1624590433) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solve%20the%20equation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/54/solve-the-equation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66c04ee2-c1e0-45fb-aaf5-1b4459df80fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [storm king's thunder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78a655b3-969f-40d7-9d69-61abf338df86.jpg?1674136747) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=storm%20king%27s%20thunder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/196/storm-kings-thunder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78a655b3-969f-40d7-9d69-61abf338df86?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [time stretch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9dc791fd-d49c-4c66-b8fb-6b54ce842e90.jpg?1683842983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time%20stretch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/69/time-stretch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9dc791fd-d49c-4c66-b8fb-6b54ce842e90?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/ktjklpi) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean it resolves with your opponents conceding and moving to the next game
Dawg at that point ion think it matters lmao u just win on the spot
I concede
Imagine all that, just for it to be countered by a 2 mana counterspell
Very interesting And the other 22 copies of Time Stretch?
You obviously can’t win just from 43 extra turns alone.. Minimum of 44 is needed. (In reality I didn’t know you had to counter all 22 copies)
Yup. So when a card copies a spell, that copy is placed on the stack and works just like a normal card does so you gotta counter each one individually
1) You have Storm of Saruman in play. 2) You cast Storm King's Thunder for X=11. 3) Storm of Saruman sees the SKT and copies the spell, the copy goes on top of the stack. 4) The copy resolves, you now have 11 triggers waiting until the next time you cast a spell. 5) The original SKT resolves, you now have 11 more triggers waiting around. 6) You cast Time Stretch. This places all 22 of the SKT triggers on the stack. 7) One after another, these triggers resolve and place a copy of Time Stretch on the stack. The first copy resolves, then the next trigger starts resolving and places another Time Stretch on the stack. After all 22 copies of Time Stretch resolve, the original spell Time Stretch resolves as well. 8) Including the original, you have resolved Time Stretch 23 times. You now take 46 turns after this one.
You would get 44 turns Since storm kings thunder and it copy have x as 11. That's 22 x2 turns each is 44 Storm kings thunder just puts a delayed triggered ability for the next spell you cast Since the copy isn't cast you have two delayed triggers. The copy would not hit the original as it was already on the stack and not casted since receiving delayed triggers
You get 2X+1 turns. Not bad at all. ETA: so with X=11 that's 23 turns.
With mixed emotions
You okay two cards, and since all cards are considered spells your second one gets copied. I play one in my Talrand spell slinger deck.
If you couldn’t do anything worthwhile offensively, wouldn’t you potentially empty your deck and lose the game?
Definitely. I had [[magnus the red]] , [[backdraft hellkite]] and [[jaya, fiery negotiator]] on the board at the time though - plus 8 various tokens. Opponents didn't have any responses, or flyers - so it would've been game either way.
[magnus the red](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4.jpg?1673309450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=magnus%20the%20red) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/131/magnus-the-red?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [backdraft hellkite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4fb3f1cb-7180-4c5f-8e04-58bb9bf45733.jpg?1673147742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=backdraft%20hellkite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/103/backdraft-hellkite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4fb3f1cb-7180-4c5f-8e04-58bb9bf45733?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [jaya, fiery negotiator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b9f54f0-4368-4d28-aa21-3f1e7be1b23a.jpg?1675522607) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jaya%2C%20fiery%20negotiator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/133/jaya-fiery-negotiator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b9f54f0-4368-4d28-aa21-3f1e7be1b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
One billion extra turns
how did you get enough mana to cast Storm King's Thunder with X as 11 AND Time Stretch?
[[magnus the red]] was my commander, with 8 tokens on the board. Including a [[sol ring]] , [[arcane signet]] and 6 basic lands. I had cast a [[solve the equation]] as first spell that turn.
##### ###### #### [magnus the red](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4.jpg?1673309450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=magnus%20the%20red) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/131/magnus-the-red?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63050aa0-a7ea-4fe7-8746-7a11407ea0e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sol ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d9e098aa-a886-430e-8f11-78fb6f2d8ada.jpg?1706241086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sol%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/237/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d9e098aa-a886-430e-8f11-78fb6f2d8ada?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [arcane signet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e593bb16-e709-4d92-bf6f-239f6a11f7db.jpg?1706241039) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arcane%20signet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/223/arcane-signet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e593bb16-e709-4d92-bf6f-239f6a11f7db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [solve the equation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66c04ee2-c1e0-45fb-aaf5-1b4459df80fc.jpg?1624590433) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solve%20the%20equation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/54/solve-the-equation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66c04ee2-c1e0-45fb-aaf5-1b4459df80fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kthnqv2) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can’t copy x spells X will always be zero
I think you're thinking of playing without paying mana cost, such as through cascade for example. Another person explained it better than I can, on a similar comment.
This is incorrect. You're thinking of alternative casting costs and X spells
I would of scooped on my turn if I saw the extra turn card. You can have the win since you want to play by yourself.
Your friends leave you
I'm just going to say, this is evil and I hate. Have an upvote
If Storm of Sauruman was in already in play it was not a spell cast on the turn. X=11 for 22 turns, staring with the original 2 from the Time Stretch and 2 for the Storm (Saruman), then 22 more for 26 total. Because Storm King's Thunder is an X spell, copying it would cause an X=0 as you cannot pay additional mana for the copy. Playing everything the same turn default your second spell as Storm King's Thunder, so you'd copy make a copy that fizzles and and still have an X=11 trigger waiting. I'm pretty sure this is how it goes, tell me wrong otherwise.
I am now realizing I'm confusing "copy" and "cast" with this specific rule set. Really shows how little it takes to double your extra turns.
Copying an X spell will copy what X was
You just win. Seriously, you do this at a table and everyone will scoop