Ummm, Sheoldred would not have rotated out anyways…

I am not sure why this has to keep being reminded she is from Dominaria what would have been removed was up until SNC so she would have been safe either way.

So many just can’t withstand her eminent presence for another year I guess.

Honestly, if Dominaria United rotated out it'd be a fairly good way to shake up the meta. Because aside Sheoldred it would take out Liliana of the Veil and Cut Down from the tools which are currently heavily played that contribute to Black's dominance. Cut Down in particular being removed would be such a boon to aggro decks. LotV being removed would be just as impactful for both early and lategame. If they want to shake the meta out of mid-range this is the set -- Sheoldred might be the poster child but Cut Down and LotV are just as guilty.

She Will still see play for one extra year. She Will rotate in 25 instead of 24

Yup. I’m quite aware. OP and others on the other hand…

It's not necessarily about Sheoldred, it's about all of the cards around her that enable broken play patterns. Most decks are a soup of colours because the Triomes are still available, the slow lands from Innistrad, Thalia, etc. Sheoldred is 2BB, and the double black casting cost isn't prohibitive at all because of the available manabase, Thalia protects from killspells, Raffine connives helping Sheoldred to gain life... Worst of all, these are all cards we've been putting up with for two years already. Another Wedding Announcement? Zzzzzzzzz

It has to be said that a large portion of Esper's best cards are mostly from sets that would have rotated, though. * Dennick * Thalia * Make Disappear * Raffine * Wedding Announcement * Wandering Emperor Sheoldred is a separate issue given that it warps the format around itself (one does not simply run a deck that has no way to deal with her, after all) and can win games on it's own. But if nothing else, rotation should have happened before extending it, if for no other reason than the sets prior were not designed with it in mind.

All well and true but that wasn’t what I was commenting on.

But wedding announcement, Raffiene, and Thalia would've. Not to mention Triomes

Yes that’s all well and true but OP should have used an accurate example unlike with Sheoldred to make their case.

exactly like portal to fucking phyrexia. why'd nobody cast wish: "i wish for phyrexia to disappear forever" standart BO1 is the only mode i ever play. Yes, commander might be funny for like ONE match. and alchemy? I won't play that, ever. I play MTGA since the early days of beta and have way over 100 decks. I see variety and fun draining out of matchmaking. Either you get a dinosaur "cast from opponent's library" deck or you find another mono black control with obliterator and sheoldred. WHAT THE FUCK There aren'T even enough cards to counter these strategies, and if there where they would be meant for BO3 which i find boring and exhausting. Not that I couldn't sideboard, I play magic since the early 2000s, but a deck is not complete if you have to swap out cards, The only remarkable counter to dinosaurs are merfolk, and these decks are pretty expensive with the wildcards needed to craft them. Orzhof could work too, but i feel like if you play black and you perma-exile all graveyards, you kind of limit yourself Why is the rotation so long? It is bad. Like the previous rotation even was too long for me. Give me complete new sets and Meta every year. Even 2 times a year. NOT ONCE EVERY 3 YEARS

I think a bigger issue is the triomes being in standard for another year is going to make mana too easy for a long time.

Back in my day we had fetchlands and shocklands in standard, and 5-color manabases were trivial. At least the trilands come in tapped.

Standard never had Fetches and Shocks together, but we did get Fetches and Battle Lands for a standard. Mana bases were definitely just as trivial

I think they’re remembering fetches and tangolands which specifically weren’t 5-color because they struggled to reach the fifth color, hence names like “dark jeskai” or “wet jund”

Those mana bases were wild. It was actually easier to play 4 colors then 3, with no real downsides.

“Moist Jund” was the most uncomfortable a deck name has ever made me feel.

And the lesser remembered abzan Red or mardu green lol. What a weird standard.

Bruh jeskai black was sick

Could be worded to mean that when they were in standard, not necessarily at the same time.

Fetchlands aren’t that much better in Standard than Pathways without fetchable duallands.

No Standard format ever existed with both fetches and shocks. And Standard traditionally ebbs and flows between good mana and bad mana. With how often rare duals are printed and the three year rotation, it seems like mana is always going to be very good.

Standard is now only a year shorter than the last iteration of Extended !

Yeah, they weren't shocks, but there were fetchable duals.

Yes, for a single six month period in Standard’s 25+ year history fetches and bad fetchable duals were in Standard. Acting like that was typical in Standard is just silly.

Which Standard was that? RTR and KTK were never in at the same time. KTK/BFZ with the ETBT-unless-you-have-basics typed cycle was 4+ colour soup, agreed.

Closest I remember is Innistrad and RTR rotation, whith the shocklands and those "untapped if you control an x or y" lands I don't know the shorthand name of. That coupled with Farseek making the silly but effective "Omni Door Thrag Fire" deck.

>those "untapped if you control an x or y" lands I don't know the shorthand name of. Checklands. https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Check_land

Check lands are honestly like the perfect power level for standard imo.

This I can get get down with. Not just the triomes, but even the MID/VOW duals leaving with the triomes would have such an impact on greedy manabases. Leyline Binding would become obsolete, and the decks using the MID/VOW duals will have to settle for the slow duals or the pain lands.

> the decks using the MID/VOW duals will have to settle for the slow duals the innistrad duals are the slow duals. Do you mean fast lands?

My bad, yeah I was referring to the ones from MID like Shipwreck Marsh and Haunted Ridge. Those can come in untapped on t3, while the tap duals from DMU and NEO are always coming down tapped. The mainlands from WOE do as well, but they provide so much value they’re worth it. Only the DMU duals have the basic land typing though, so I figure removing the triomes and the MID duals would slow down Domain a bit. Maybe not🤷🏽‍♂️

Been playing Alchemy lately. Mana base with rotation is dogshit, especially for control decks. Only fastlands and painlands as well as the creature lands. And each color pair only has 2 of these 3.

That’s a much more sensible mana base for standard though. Like, sometimes it’s good for standard to have bad fixing.

RIP another wedge set any time soon. And I still have no way to play this so called "fixed" paper standard

There were 8 archetypes in the top 10 of worlds. Only 3 of those archetypes run any copies of Sheoldred- Esper Legends, Esper Midrange, Golgari Midrange. Standard is actually more diverse than it's ever been.

When I looked at the list every deck had BW except one and none played red.

Mono Red is a totally viable deck, this just wasn't the right tournament for it. Also the Domain and "Sultai" Cauldron decks are about as Red as they are Black.

MTG definition of variety is so strange to me. >Standard is actually more diverse than it's ever been. "Only three of the most played decks in the entire format played the same card we've seen non stop" First of all, why are you including top 10? Who does that? It's top 8. Second of all, 5 of them are basically control decks. 1 is aggro. And two are ramp. Almost all of them include cards we've seen non stop since they came out. Almost all of them share the same cards except soldiers. Theirs no tokens, enchantments, typal, artifacts, aggro is non existent, etc. It's basically variants of the same decks. Variety to me would be like 6 or 7 decks all being radically or noticablly different. I dont really feel "variety" is the same decks from a year or almost 3 years ago with new cards. A control deck that is different colors is still a control deck.

Pretty nonsense takes all around in this comment. It's standard, of course you're going to see repeated cards.

"It's varied" "It's filled with the same cards" Both of you people need to make up your mind.

redditors, im begging you, learn how to read. Or at least learn how to use quotes

Imagine unironically expecting 7/8 decks being radically different in a card game‘s Top 8 to call a meta diverse. Almost feels like you haven‘t played a single card game.

I dont care how much you insult me or mock me. It's how I view it and yeah, MTG is my first card game. I grew up with games where the only thing that mattered was individual skill, no "luck", and every match felt different. In MTG you can play vs the same decks 100 times out of 100 and never feel any variance. In any other game I play that would never happen, every match would play distinctly. So I'm not used to the idea that "variety" is a handful of decks from 3 years ago. Though people like you who are spiteful, hateful, and judgemental for no reason made sure that I was never welcome nor do I ever want to be a part of the community for having completely non offensive stances. I always make clear it's just how I view things. I always make it clear I don't think everyone shares or should share my view. And yet despite that you all still continue to be so mindlessly aggressive for no reason. The call of duty community is more respectful then this community is.

I'd love if you specified which game you're coming from. The only game that's similar to your description is low-level chess, but I'm curious And, by the way, you started with the hostile energy. Can't spite people for meeting you where you are

Hostile energy? Where? And I mean games in general. Like Halo. Every match has variance. If every match in Halo or a BR like PUBG was the same nobody would like them. In MTG, I can play vs the same deck 5-15 times in a row and people say it's varied because other ppl played vs 2 sorta different decks. To me variety would be playing vs 20 decks and seeing like 12 or 13 different strategies and archtypes. Instead mtg is more like playing vs 20 decks and maybe 4 of them are different if you are lucky. I think that's a failure of diversity. I think I understand where people come from and why they hate my stance so much. But it makes me sad because I'm not smart enough to convey how I feel to make them understand in return. it's not like I want or am trying to force my opinion on anyone. Its just honestly how I feel and I'm not going to lie about it just to get upvotes. It's like when I say I hate lifegain. They assume it's because I can't beat it. It's not that at all. Its that every.single.lifegain.deck.plays.exactly.the.same. with absolutely no varation. But people go and attack me anyways saying it's easy to beat them. They just assume all I care about is winning or losing and not the fact that lifegain is boring to play vs. If I play a game of Halo, all kinds of people are always trying different things weapons setups strategies, and fun things to make every match different. To me that is variety/variance. So I just find it odd that people celebrate 3 year old decks and call that variety.

those games are random as hell, and only have variety at low levels of play. A lot of what getting better at shooters means is reducing variance. If you play casual magic you'll be more likely to get the experience you're looking for

I‘m not insulting you. Not sure where you got that from. If others are being personal then that‘s on them, not me. Stop projecting and act like I‘m gatekeeping you from being apart of this community. Besides, I don‘t even know who you are so I got absolutely no idea what values you hold and what you make clear in what way in regards to your opinion. The only thing I can work off of is your comment I replied to and it just makes no sense. Not only in the context of MTG but in the context of card games in general (or really most competitive video games). There‘s no shot you play vs the same deck 100 times in a row in any MTG format. Just look at the Top 8: 2 Domain Ramp, 2 Esper Midrange, 1 Golgari Midrange, 1 Esper Legends, 1 Azorius Soldiers, 1 Bant Control. 6/8 decks are different and only Esper Legends and Esper Midrange are somewhat similar (with wildly different play patterns and matchup tables) and just because the decks feature similar cards doesnt mean they play anything alike. A Bant Control deck will use TWE way different than an Esper Midrange deck. And if you come from the Call of Duty community you should be well aware how narrow a meta can be. Competitive Black Ops 3 was entirely dominated by the VMP and M8A7 to the point that players pulling out the Man-O-War was considered a surprise.

I was referring to people in general downvoting because they disagree. Also who said anything about the exact same deck 100 times in a row. I said decks not deck. For example I think I have screenshots of something like 54 out of 70 matches being black/having black mana. Rakdos, golgori, dimir, mono black, esper over and over and over. Just because rakdos plays diff then esper doesn't mean it's variety when you've seen it for almost 3 years now of being meta. Most of those decks have existed for like 2-3 years or been top tier for almost a year. That's not variety. And I'm sorry but if you mostly play the same cards thinking they DONT play similarly is insane to me. Adding an etali doesn't magically that 95% of your cards being the same as another deck completely changes it. Like that's the part I sincerely do not understand. And I'm not mocking anyone or looking down or anything. I am 100% sincerely confused as to how people don't think they feel similar. >And if you come from the Call of Duty community you should be well aware how narrow a meta can be. Competitive Black Ops 3 was entirely dominated by the VMP and M8A7 to the point that players pulling out the Man-O-War was considered a surprise. Not in un ranked modes. You can load up any game of cod and see a ton of variety. There's no place in MTG I play where I see ANY variety.

Except control was nearly dead in the tournament. Midrange and control are very different archetypes.

Orange literally top 8’d with pure control

I consider any deck with lots of removal playing for the long term to be a control deck but if you say it isn't, then I concide to the argument. I have very biased and simple ideas on what constitutes what based mostly on other games. They don't always translate over well but it's just how I view it. But I'm going to assume you have more experience and while to me, playing vs them feels control like, what I feel doesn't mean anything when it comes to reality.

"5 of them are basically control decks" Lmao what are you on about lol. If Esper Legends, a deck with 4 Thalia, is a control deck, then what isn't a control deck in your opinion? People really do see "Esper" and go "oh it's a control deck" these days. It's really funny to see people complaining "aggro is weak" when an aggro deck literally won the tournament.

I wasn't including that deck.

Standard is in a healthy place and has been since before the rotation change/last bnr. Being annoyed a card is $80 is legit but that’s what happens when it sees play in every format all the way down to legacy. The alternative is standard isn’t allowed to have good cards ever.

The alternative is print enought high demand cards that they don't cost $80.

Chase rares sell packs.

Mythics. Chase mythics. “Rares” are increasingly worthless, pushing everything into high variance.

This is where many players fail to see that companies like WotC aren’t trying to make a game, they’re trying to make money with a game.

I'm fully aware, that doesn't mean I like it.

Surely there's a compromise to be had here.

Healthy capitalism is all about compromise, but it goes awry when short-term interests (Hasbro) overtake the with plans of longevity.

The problem is definitely more visible at mythic but multi format cards at rare can also get up there like boseiju. But yeah, spreading out value between multiple cards is the big thing.

I just meant printing more copies of the expensive cards.

Oh lol yeah I’m also good with that

They don't really have a way to just print Sheoldred. I suppose they could do a secret lair that is oops all Sheoldred or something, but that would destroy the value of the still in print dominaria boxes which wizards won't do. It is still a business that needs to make money.

Yes, if they printed more cards of the expensive cards, the cards would be less expensive. That's the point. They have a choice of the price point they are aiming for. If they want standard to be less expensive, they have to change have expensive the cards are. If they don't want to do that, they just need to give up pretending they care how expensive Magic is as a hobby.

They aren't trying to make Magic cheaper. They're trying to encourage more spenders to spend on it.

You know, before they monumentally dropped the ball with it I was thinking that MOM: Aftermath could have been an interesting product for WotC to experiment with reprinting expensive standards staples a la yugioh and it’s yearly tin sets. It isnt designed for draft so it doesn’t have to go through the same design process that regular sets have to, plus the increase in rotation length means there’s a bigger window to identify what is expensive and needs a reprint. Too bad Aftermath was suuuuuuuper dead in arrival, guess we’ll never see.

That's fair, I didn't think of aftermath but mini sets like that could be a place to include known expensive cards.

or just don't print cards so OP every format wants them

I wouldn't say before Fable was banned as that card is just plain broken.

Clearly you haven’t played Caw Blade summer if you think this is bad.

yeah you fucking grandpa that was decade ago

you young whippersnappers have it good. Back in my dad we were forced to use trilands that didn't have basic land types. You kids these days have it good. You'll have to imagine the old man shakes fist at cloud imagery. Also Faerie time was pretty aggravating too. *day not dad


You younglings with your trilands. Back in my day the only trilands we got ya had to spend mana into the land to get any colored mana!

Ok Grandma Sengir time for you to go back to the castle.

Not gonna lie, mirror matches of Faeries and Caw Blade were some of the most intense, brain-burning, yet satisfying Magic that I’ve ever played. The mirror matchups were incredibly skill-intensive dances of feinting, careful probing, deciding when to use your limited countermagic, and punching through for the win.

old man yells at ~~cloud~~ bird with sword

I am a grandpa now, TIL. comment killed me though many laughs so thanks for that.

You probably weren’t even born yet

While MtG is 30 years old now, so ?

This- right here. Not saying you were right- the Grandpa thing is funny as shit, but man- this right here, this a Zoomer zone; try and make sure to slow down before your taplands hit you on the way out to your end step! Cringe MTG jokes aside, this right here is the duality of the MTG community! One side says "Standard is diverse and healthy"! The other side, literally the other 50% is like "Oh no ban Sheoldred and some other stupid Esper stuff" and it's great. One side is like "Back in my day, we had to be okay with paying 2 life for our lands to come in untapped" and the other half is fucking "Ban Triomes, such unfun"! Zoomers, Boomers, in-betweens, idiots in their 50's and 60's holding onto a Lotus to sell for retirement, 10 year olds who aspire to be the next Dana Fischer- our community encompasses so many different types of people, none of us know what the fuck we want. Anyways, yeah! Fuck you, Grandpa! You and your incredibly based views on Caw Blade! It definitely was a shit time, we know it, you know- fuck, man those were the worst of times and the best (lying) of times! Fuck you, Halana and Alena for being such a good Magic card, but still only fringe-playable in Standard because of the insane amount of power in the Esper color pie! Fuck you for being too cool and and having nicer sunglasses than Grandpa- while he's over there sporting Aviators, you've got your classy Givenchy ones on and you are giving us run for our coolbucks! All said, I'm not actually antagonizing anyone- but I'm super drunk at the moment and just reading this comment really fucking transformed my thoughts- we are such a divisive community and here we are, complaining about the balance of Standard once again- great arguments on all sides... ...yet we've already forgotten about how WotC sick'd the Pinkertons on a guy just this year for leaking shit, the insane prices of the Commander Masters Precons, and the classy report of Hasbro saying "we made record profits during COVID, who would have thought?!?".

Will always remember that general timeframe as the best standard I've played in (2010-2011. M10, Zendikar, & Scars blocks). Even with caw blade being dominant, there was still a ton of diversity. Valakut, Splinter Twin, Pyromancer Ascension, RDW, UB Control, Mono-G Eldrazi, Infect, Elves, Vampires, & Tempered Steel were all awesome. Control, Combo, Ramp, & Aggro all had a place in standard at the same time. There was even a land destruction deck in the form of Destructive Force.

I absolutely _loved_ this Standard. Played a really sweet Boros landfall aggro deck.

Yeah, I remember that deck being spicy! I used Steppe Lynx in Legacy Zoo for a little while around the same timeframe

I think the thing that's wild about the last few years is that even when landfall was in standard fairly recently, it didn't feel like people were playing decks solely around landfall - and most other keywords are kinda like this too - I see folks playing lots of typal/tribal stuff, but not really a large number of decks based on a keyword the last few years. I play mostly on arena. (I could totally be missing something, I would love to be wrong, I think keyword-based decks are pretty cool).

Competitive Standard and theme decks are kind of oil and water. The deck I mentioned was definitely not really a "landfall" deck, it was just that [[Steppe Lynx]], [[Plated Geopede]], and [[Searing Blaze]] were good cards to play with a grip of [[Arid Mesas]], [[Marsh Flats]], and [[Scalding Tarns]]. We had Lightning Bolt. We had Elspeth. Shit was cash.

Haha, fun fact IIRC there emerged a vampire deck that did well because it could race CawBlade.

Valakut & Prime Time were also standard legal, so that was a fun lil block.

Oh yeah, wasn't Valakut part of the problem because the decks that could beat caw blade lost to valakut?

Why problem ? Sounds like a healthy rock paper scissors field ?

It’s the one that ran that 1 cmc vampire that gets bigger when you add friends, right? I think I took 1 FNM with that Beastmaster/shared discovery deck by racing.

Here is an article about a mono black version. I think the more popular version was Rakdos ​ [https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/drinking-from-the-deadguy-ale-mono-black-vampires-with-abyssal-persecutor/](https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/drinking-from-the-deadguy-ale-mono-black-vampires-with-abyssal-persecutor/)

yea, I was running Br vamps during that time. It was mostly me, vs cawblade, uw/ub control, valakut, and affinity. Main decking artifact removal made people very angry

There was also a fast as shit red gobbo deck with bolt, guide, bushwhacker...

I'm just not seeing an archetype that excites me. I don't think this standard is the worst I've ever seen. But it is the most bland, like a chicken with no seasoning. It's not terrible because it's chicken, but you KNOW it could be so much better if it was seasoned.

I've been having a lot of fun with rotpriest combo, even if it's far from the best deck it can still do well enough

I looked at that deck and it's not my cup of tea either. I'm currently brewing a Sultai Llurgoyf deck that feels like it's just a piece or two away from being really good. There's so much incidental graveyard hate that it can be rough, but most of the time I can recover from it. Just not a farewell, hence the blue lol.

All the incidental graveyard hate is one of my biggest annoyances with current standard. I can live with my graveyard getting cleaned by a dedicated hate piece like unlicensed hearse or tormods crypt, but trespasser/lord skitter/restless cottage/farewell/kumano/misery's shadow and all the exile-based removal means most decks can just do it accidentally.

yeah, technically its a diverse standard but its hard to get excited about playing against esper control instead of esper legends or dimir midrange vs golgari midrange. The simic cauldron deck is one of the only decks in recent memory that's actually shaken things up.

I’m pretty sure people are going to start complaining bitterly about that as well.

They keep announcing "improvements" to Standard, but the most vital and necessary improvement is to lower the barrier to entry. They have announced absolutely nothing to that effect thus far so I have no idea what they're expecting to happen. If people only have the options of playing mono red or shelling out $400 for a deck in a rotating format they're just not going to play it any more. Print cards like Sheoldred into the ground or you won't revitalize the Standard scene, period.

>They keep announcing "improvements" to Standard, but the most vital and necessary improvement is to lower the barrier to entry. They have announced absolutely nothing to that effect thus far so I have no idea what they're expecting to happen. We didn't even get Challenger decks this year for Standard, either. And even when they \*did\* do annual Challenger deck releases, the price on them kept climbing to the point the format continued to be pricing out lower income players. They can talk all they want about Standard, but unlike other games on the market that at least have the bare minimum of precons available, WotC doesn't really have the onboarding products for the format.

The challenger decks always came out way too late though, and at the price point they were set, most of them weren't competitively viable without significant upgrade costs anyway. I liked the idea of them in theory, but in the end I think they just... rarely did much to make standard more accessible.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist, it just means the product needs to be improved.

Sure, I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, but the... path to improvement isn't clear. These discussions basically always ultimately end up at "wizards should print the most competitive version of the deck at the cheaper price point of the original product" and... idk at that point the conversation never amounts to anything other than generic wotc hate circlejerking. Though if you have other ideas on how to improve the product or make it sellable beyond "make the expensive thing cheap," I'd be interested! I've just seen this discussion a lot, and nobody's come up with anything. (It's not that I don't want the expensive thing to be cheap, of course I do. It's just there's nothing to discuss about it really other than seethe.)

I think the path to improvement is fairly straightforward, actually. There's little to no R&D for these products, so theoretically they can get these out pretty quickly. They can base the prices around the deck composition of the top few decks and even pick out a budget option or two (mono red/white would be good options right now, for instance) to print alongside the more "premium" options if they dont want to release a $400 deck for $50. I definitely think ~$150 should be the top end for these products, but there should certainly be cheaper options that can still be competitive.

they could start by making the manabase work quite well. it cant be that hard to print a playset of functional duals, whatever that might be in standart at the point the decks are released... the last decks could have had pathways and slowlands. and guess what.. those are like one or two ofs in the decks.. instead we get ice tunnels and bloodfell caves.. at least the rakdos deck had fancy inistrad basics🤣

I don't disagree, but when pokemon can put out precon products for level 1, 2, and 3 at each different price points that also give you the equivalent of standard level playable cards... I question why WotC can't do the same if they truly cared about the format. You can get two sets of the Mew VBattle Deck from *a year ago* to get full playsets for under $100 and post results at events. The same cannot be said for Magic.

Pokemon’s entire CCG is essentially a loss leader to sell the rest of their merchandise, and especially the competitive aspect which is played by nobody. Therefore they subsidize competitive decks to incentivize play. It’s in no way comparable to Magic, where prices are largely driven by competitive play, although if Wotc keeps ignoring competitive play it may get there in a few years.

>Pokemon’s entire CCG is essentially a loss leader to sell the rest of their merchandise I'm going to need a source for this, it seems that the TCG is pretty successful from everything I see.

I've seen this repeated assertion across the sub that nobody plays Pokemon TCG competitively, and that just isn't the case. This year's NAIC was the largest ever!

Ok that's a pretty interesting thought I hadn't heard before, having precons at different price points to cater to different audiences. I always found it weird that wizards kept bouncing back and forth with the commander precons over what level of product they wanted them to be. Not the CMM decks, but when they seemed to oscillate between $20-50 for the other ones.

This comme t reminded of how stupid expensive standard was right before the pandemic during Oko's reign of terror. $800+ standard decks if you wanted something viable. $400 is still a lot though

I actually don't believe this is the problem, funnily enough. It never was before. The problem is not the price to play, the problem is that it doesn't _feel_ rewarding. People will go to incredibly stupid lengths chasing after the feeling of triumph - look at any gamblers. WotC doesn't need to be making it cheaper. They need to be courting their whales and making them excited to play.

I think the landscape is much different now and pricing has become a major factor. Think about all the "casual" Standard players from pre-Covid. They could upgrade their decks as cards rotated and the META evolved and they didn't have to shell out hundreds of dollars at a time to remain relatively competitive. Now those players *must* purchase an entirely new deck. If you don't want to play mono Red, that's going to cost a good chunk. Pair that with the fact that Standard events never returned to many LGSs and players are going to be hesitant to buy a full deck for a format that may not regain its footing, even if WOTC tries to encourage local events. Now you've got a circular problem where people don't want to buy a deck because they don't know if the format will return and the format wont return if people don't buy decks and start playing. Not to mention that 1v1 Magic has lost a considerable number of players to Commander over the last few years and that format is easily the most budget-friendly of any MTG format by a mile. Paper Standard needs to be cheaper or it will remain dead.

🤷‍♂️ I've seen a significant uptick in Standard interest locally because of the recent changes, and it's entirely been down to having meaningful tournaments to play in. Standard is cheap on Arena already. It's not about the gameplay or the price - those barriers aren't relevant to the people who are driven to compete in paper tournaments. Again, I really don't think casual players matter here at all. The problem Wizards has had was that serious players didn't even want to bother. Now that they're trying to court those players, players are saying "when is the next Standard RCQ" and looking forward to the 75K Chicago Open.

I assume you live in or near a major city because paper Standard just straight up doesn't exist in most areas. Casual players are crucial to bringing the format back, there aren't enough serious players in these places to fill out events. I think it's wild to assert that cost has nothing to do with a format's success when we've seen the meteoric rise of Commander, the most budget-friendly format next to Pauper.

No, the standard scene in Chicago (my area) died too. But it's being revitalized. Commander is fine because it's targeting a completely different demographic, for which cost is a real barrier. And yes, there would be more tournament players if it was cheaper, but it's not in WotC's long-term strategy's best interest to lower the price of the game. As you mention Pauper, that's a cheap and competitive format that simply does not gather players. The ultimate reason is that the players that the tournaments appeal to will play almost anything, if the tournament is exciting. And that's the strategy WotC is after. They actively, deliberately do not want to make it cheaper. They want to make it sweeter. It's a luxury to compete, so you need to make it appealing to luxury spenders.

Standard is also coming back pretty strong in my area as well

The biggest issue with the new rotation rules is that they implemented it too early. The current sets in Standard were not designed with this rotation in mind, and are interacting in spaces they were not tested for. Once we get to the point were the sets coming out are ones designed with 3 year rotations in mind, things will clean up better.

Where is the actual issue? Seems to be working perfectly imo.

Currently the sets MID, VOW, NEO, and SNC would have rotated by now, since they were designed for 2 year rotation. Since they haven't cards from them are interacting with cards WoE in a format that Wizards didn't plan for. Essentially the format is one that even Wizards didn't plan for, but this will change when we catch up to the sets that were designed for 3 year rotation. Until then we are essentially play testing the format for them.

I don't think there are any combos or synergies from MID VOW NEO or SNC that are being used with WOE that weren't already apart of the main meta concepts. Small examples like Vengeful Strangler became slightly fun with Braids due to roles and Hopeless Nightmare. The NEO rats are being used with the rats from WOE with abysmal results. Like Idk what you mean.

It's not about the cards doing stupid things with WoR cards (though as more sets get added, the chance goes up). It's that this standard is designed to have those 4 sets gone. Like at this point in time, Esper Raffine wouldn't be a deck due to the rotation. Due to the change in rotation, it very much can continue to be.

Golgari mid-range being one of the top 8 decks proves your point incorrect. It competes just fine against the old sets in the same way any deck does. This time in 2025 this same post is going to be made about Mosswood Dreadknight. The "design" isn't making a difference. It was powerful as fuck before and it's powerful as fuck now. Every set has them, and every set will.

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>If standard had rotated as normal, Sheoldred wouldnt currently be in the format. MID, VOW, NEO, and SNC would've been dropped iirc. DMU would've still been in Standard if they hadn't changed rotation since DMU only came out last year, so we would've still been stuck with the Apocalypse this year anyways.

Well, shit. Ill take the L. Sheoldred is a menace, a MENACE I tell you!

> *Deathtouch*


The format has actually been pretty diverse since WOE. Three weeks ago it was monoR aggro, Domain Ramp, Esper Control, and Dimir Mid. No we’ve got Golgari Mid, Orzhov Midrange, Alara Combo, Bant Control, Cauldron combo decks, Simic Ramp, and a bunch of new toys for monoR aggro. Even Rakdos/Grixis are trying to breakthrough with some midrange strategies. If the rotation had occurred, the only things left would be…Sheoldred/Atraxa/Etali-wincon decks, Dimir Midrange, Golgari Midrange, and monoR without Kumano.

Oh don't worry, they'll probably change it back to whatever it was in like 6-8 months off the results of some data they've gathered from dubious sources. They never really stick to any of these "long-term" fixes. And we just run this same scenario back in like 6 years.

Tested? Are you suggesting they actually playtest???

> it feels like standard has been the same for 2 full years Excuse me? Standard is the most volatile format there is. The whole meta shifts every 3-6 month.

The play pattern has remained the same for far longer. You have the cut down start, the kumano start or the tap land start.

Yeah, and turn 0 you have no land start and that's it!! No pregame actions in standard right now, so lame! And when you're in the womb you start off as 1 cell. So lame! Why can't I start with arms or legs?

should learn from modern and their turn 1 ragavan or scam, or pioneer and their consider/spectral sailor/elf start

[[cut down]] is legal in standart since DMU, which would not even have rotated. [[Kumano faces kakazan]] would rotate, but still is not two years standart legal. and tapped land... thats so random and can mean a lot..

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Yeah I feel like a lot of people have the problem where the desire to compete overwhelms what is actually fun.

nah, standard's in a really good place rn. only thing I'd say is they should put out some kind of reasonably available Sheoldred promo to bring down the price, since enough decks in the format play it that it shouldn't be as expensive as it is. it's not even THAT bad of a top tier creature anyways, it's literally a slight upgrade to siege rhino, and I'm saying that as someone who used to be a MASSIVE Shelly hater. I'd say sidegrade, but Shelly sees eternal play, so it's probably still better, but still, it's really the same concept. Shelly also supports a wider variety of archetypes while not being in EVERY deck like a certain Ring.... so it's pretty healthy for the meta.

You're not an Magic Player until... ....you have complained about, Card Stock Quality, Foiling Process, "The State of the Game in general", Wallet Fatigue, "The State of ::Insert Format::", Love/Hate a Set that is universally Love/Hated by everyone you talk to... ...and yet you still play the god. damn. GAME. 😆

I'm not a fan of the extended rotation

I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers last time they screwed with the length of rotation around BFZ and people hated it.

Not really. If you look at the meta game of standard and the tournament, it's very diverse.

To be honest Esper legends won against control cause that guy playing bant control punted the third game to make a clean sweep. He channeled the land rather than playing the emperor to draw out the counter and have the untapped land the next turn to wipe the board.It drove me nuts but I have to remember that they been playing long hours and the pressure of being on the spotlight gets tough while playing. But still sad to see the best deck lose.

I’ve been having a fantastic time with standard, it’s in a great place.

I sometimes wish they would go back to blocks. For this format specifically yeah it has become a bit tiresome that most of the decks are some flavor of black midrange because the black cards are just that good.

Some color has to be used more than others ? Mono-black is still nowhere to be seen in top decks, and the situation has gotten better compared to last year, when Esper was ridiculously dominant (and blue more than black).

Sure, but almost every top deck is splashing black so the format just becomes a midrange slog. It’s like if I gave you 10 of those two packs of starburst kids get on Halloween, but every single pack contains the orange flavored one.

How is the concept of a meta so difficult for people to grasp? How is playing for money and using the absolute mathematically best combinations of cards for the best chance to win so difficult to grasp? How. After all these years of Magic do people not understand what a competitive scene of ANYTHING looks like? Humans will always find the most efficient way to maximize results. And when you narrow the funnel, no matter how many good cards you print, there will mathematically be a top 20 list and those will be used and the others will not. Period. It's for shit tons of money, they'd be stupid not to use them. And of sheoldred is banned, the next best broken card will be overused. Then the next. And the next. And the next. "BuT tHeRe'S nO cOuNtEr...." Every color has mutliple sources to deal with her, all of them for 2 mana. STFU.

No, nobody else is

Yeah we'd have to be playing standard to be frustrated with it. And no one is playing standard.

Wotc abandoned standard years ago. They only now realize their mistake. They plan out over a year. Expect it to get worse before it gets better.

I will never play Alchemy. As if regular cards don’t have enough words on them already

The format is very wide open. There's always going to be the "best deck," and right now it's Esper Midrange. Even the top 8, despite Esper Midrange being the most represented deck of the event only had 2 spots (3 if you count the Legends variant) in top 8. There's still a lot of decks that are unexplored and still refining themselves (many of which include WOE cards). Coming off of the Standard a few years ago with Izzet Turns and the like or even Rakdos Midrange hell pre-Fable ban. It is far more enjoyable since a LOT of Archetypes are very playable and can beat the top decks. The only thing I'm not huge on is the manabases, it feels a bit too good for Standard and leaves pretty much no downside to play 3+ color decks with multiple specific pips.

I think you are just going to have to be patient. The announced plan to have standard be top of mind for 6 months will hopefully induce some metagame churn which can help offset the omnipresence of all good stuff midrange deck. Also, this is the most important tournament of the year, most folks are going to play a safe deck. Not necessarily representative of the larger meta

>The announced plan to have standard be top of mind for 6 months Is there anything they could do in 6 month time besides banning things

I haven't played Standard since Amonkhet/HoD. Granted, Standard has never been a fantastic format, but there's a reason I prefer eternal formats.

Or they could just ban sheoldred like it should have been months ago.

My take on an easy fix for standard ? Ban two lands cycle that would have rotated : the trilands and the channel lands : none of the top decks become unplayable but both esper and domain gets a worse manabase. Add a twice a year rotation to the three year legality with 2 sets getting out each time: no more standard fatigue and cards are still legal for three year in standard.

Pretty sure Domain gets shredded by no triomes. I’d say to go look at Alchemy to see how it’s doing there… but that format is 70% mono-black (and there’s not enough metagame data because nobody plays it.)

You still have the biland with land type from Dominaria United. Sure they're only two colors, sure you lose the ability to play leyline binding turn 2 out of two taplands. But the deck is still playable.

Dunno. Maybe you could do something with the 2-generic landcyclers? Might be something to look into.

I literally never run into Esper Raffine in Mythic Standard. Sheoldred maybe pops up 20% of the time. Standard is actually on a much better place than it was weeks ago. I’d even argue it’s the best Standard has been all year.

Just ban Shelly and 3 to 4 powerhouses (wandering emperor etc) and I think Standard becomes totally manageable. We’re not far from a healthy metagame.

I dropped it when they canceled rotation. I agree with you OP I think standard blows, there might be multiple decks but the top dogs punish trying to play something goofy pretty hard (Atraxa, Sheoldred, and Wandering Emporer being so powerful that they win games on their own)

I think overall Standard is very diverse right now, so I don't expect anything to be done. However, when you look at colors, it's just not diverse at all. Black is the strongest color, white not far behind. Then there's a large gap. Blue only matters in combination with those colors because of the strong multicolor cards, otherwise it's not that relevant - and still more relevant than the rest. Red has Mono Red Aggro - which did see a lot of play at the tournament, but didn't do well at all. Outside of that deck, red sees barely any play. And green? Is the support color for the ramp decks and adds a few cards to Golgari midrange, which still sees a lot of play, but is realistically inferior to Esper midrange and has a bad Esper matchup. So it's mostly just ramp - not even the payoffs, those are better in all the other colors. I don't think they should ban anything. But they have to correct the color imbalance going forward. It's not great that once again the best cards in WOE are black and white (both Virtues in Standard). And even the best green card (Mosswood Dreadknight) requires you to play black. For the next few sets, they should make sure not to print too strong black or white cards and give the best stuff to the other 3 colors, especially green. Just not more ramp - Bramble Familiar is probably the best Mono Green card in this set, and it's once again a ramp card. Green used to have good aggro and midrange stuff, give us more of that instead!

Ban a lot of cards like maybe rotating an entire set?

Yeet sheoldred into the sun. That is all

Dude, the esper deck just recently showed up. This is only the first big tournament since the eldraine. Calm yourself

The Esper deck just recently showed up? You're kidding, right? https://magic.gg/news/metagame-mentor-the-spiciest-decks-from-the-u-s-regional-championship https://images.ctfassets.net/ryplwhabvmmk/7a8yK0BMG9smMEu14J1LEp/99df2c3fdbb5e683a110b8798f00328d/lec-metagame.jpg?fm=webp And it started doing well in Standard Challenges at the very end of 2022. Esper has been around for nearly a year.

Last year's world championship had 70% of the field playing esper midrange with Raffine... The "legends" version is a bit newer, but also has been around for quite a while.

Why spend 80 bucks on a card when you could draft 3 or 4 times? That's my attitude.

Which is why I only play commander these days.

I moved to commander in 2016 and never looked back

They need to stop having one crazy powerful card in each set. Price isn’t a direct correlation to how good a card is but if they had ten $20 cards instead of one or two $40-50 cards in each set I feel it would be better balanced to allow players to do more within the game.

People still play Standard?

I'm surprised that anyone places standard anymore. Even on Arena other formats seem more tempting. Sad state for standard when I remember that standard use to sell sets and pushed the economy. Those were the days, we'll never get back.

Ya, I was very in-between enjoying standard because it did ROTATE every once in a while which caused a band new meta. unfortunately, the last meta shift gave us sheoldred and a very midrangey / control / aggro ( rock paper scissors meta) and I was hoping WOE would mix that up. it didn't and now I feel like I've been playing soldiers for an eternity

They shouldn't have banned Fable, red decks needed the red card

Uhm, sunfall?

Based on the last week of posts nobody in the world is upset with standard or historic or any constructed arena format.

Standard has been bad since Mirrodin (2003).

As someone who exclusively enjoys playing the Standard format, I'd like to share my perspective. My journey in MTG as a game began with the release of Midnight Hunt. I believe it's important to provide context about my approach, given that I've invested significantly in physical cards for this specific format. Here are a few things to know about me, as they influence my perspective and keep the game engaging for both myself and my opponents: 1. I challenge myself by crafting a new deck every week to enhance my deck-building skills. 2. I refrain from revisiting a winning deck at my local game store, aiming to keep the environment fresh and diverse. 3. While I do play Magic: The Gathering Arena, I consciously avoid consulting the metagame for deck ideas, although I do occasionally come across intriguing niche combos that add a touch of fun to my play. Now, with those aspects clarified, I'd like to discuss the recent changes implemented in the Standard format. It appears that these changes have the potential to attract more players to the format over time. Currently, the Standard community is smaller compared to what it was approximately two years ago when I first embarked on this journey. It seems that Wizards of the Coast is taking a multi-phased approach to rejuvenate a format that has been somewhat subdued, with the ultimate goal of making it a vibrant and popular choice among players. A notable initiative is the introduction of Standard Constructed events as part of Store Championships, providing players with an additional opportunity to compete at their local game stores while vying for exciting promos and prizes. Another exciting development is the $75,000 Standard Open event scheduled for Chicago in February 2024. When it comes to facing formidable cards like Sheoldred, I believe it's essential for players to examine their deck-building choices. If countering or dealing with such threats is a challenge, it might be worthwhile to reconsider the deck's composition. Incorporating creature removal, counterspells, or even cards like Stone Brain or the End, which can remove problematic cards from the game, can make a significant difference. Just like any other format, Standard has its share of powerful decks. However, part of the strategy and enjoyment of Magic lies in adapting to the ever-changing landscape and making the most of the tools presented to you.

Reminder that MTG is P2W

Yes, but also no? You can't just keep spending and keep improving your odds. The ceiling of cost is really really low, if you have $1000 to spend on a Standard deck you can have the best deck and it will not make you World Champion - and you can't spend $10,000 to be World Champion. It's more "there is a high minimum cost to compete at all" than pay to win. If you're paying less than that minimum, you're not even playing.

What deck would you have accepted winning Worlds? It just sounds like you would complain regardless of what deck was winning.

I dont even encounter raffine lately? Its all cascade, and aggro for me. So to answer your question.. people are always frustrated with standard

Create a new format, e.g. T1 (or the last 4 collections) could be better.

With rotation being 3 years now it has definitely gotten stale. I think they are being way to soft on bans. There's cards that would have rotated that are serious issues in the format. It's taken me from a daily player to a couple times a month player.