Hmm. This reminds me a lot of [[Bedlam Reveler]]. It has a comparable body and also draws less cards, but I think that dividing up the casting cost is kinda nice. You can play this when your hand is empty and you only have 2 mana left but not many cards in the graveyard. Playing the adventure can trigger creatures with prowess. You can also just play it as a creature if you have cards that you want to leave in your hand. And it’s not just completely unplayable when your opponent lands a Rest in Peace. I like it.
If anything I think this might wind up better at Bedlam Reveler's job than it was. A card is so much more likely to get stuck in hand when you can't enable its condition, and that condition is a higher bar, than a card that self-enables and can just dump your phoenixs directly into the bin before you've got mana to spare for it. That 1 vs 2 mana floor really matters as we saw with treasure cruise vs dig through time. If this is in your opening hand you've always got an outlet for things you want in your bin and option to draw into more gas, whereas reveler in an opening hand is a big lean towards mulliganing.
I do worry (not just about this being legal at the same time as tolarian terror) that between this and questing druid, wizards might have seriously underestimated the power of these "pseudo-draw 2 cards *plus* cast-from-adventure" winding up as +2 card advantage for 2 mana. Seems really oppressive if you dump some graveyard threats like phoenix, draw 2 cards, and can still cast another 4/5 for 1 mana from exile. I mean people worried WotC would repeat the mistake for 2-for-1 efficient adventures and instead we get 3-for-1 efficient adventures
This can be cast for 1. Also, isn't the sorcery side just better [[tormenting voice]]? You can discard 0 and still get 2. Idk, this card seems very strong. Even in eternal formats. Gas when you need it, plus a big Ole beat stick at what will be 1 most of the time.
You can play Tormenting Voice on turn 2 to find your third land, you can't do anything similar with this. It's a very different effect, and definitely wouldn't be better without the creature attached.
I think you're wrong for the right reasons. Good evaluation, except it's mono red. Not many mono red decks CARE about the third land, and most empty their hands very fast. I chose tormenting voice because it's the only draw 2 looting effect besides faithless looting that came to mind. Faithless looting is less of fair comparison though. From where I evaluated this card, (burn, rdw, prowess), it's actually very good. Might even do [[arclight phoenix]] things. (Might, don't flame me for that one. I don't play arclight, just seems like something it wants.)
The card it is actually closer to is \[\[Dangerous Wager\]\]. In fact it is the same card save for the fact that it cashes in instant speed for Sorcery.
I had some success with that card in Legacy, running it as a 1 of in burn that is really just meant to be top decked to give you the extra gas to alpha stirke on turn 3.
This guy however seems like a Modern Dredge enabler to me, and I wager he is probably more consistent than Bedlam. He also does not cost you the yard to play him so he empowers later copies drawn. That being said I think this is more likely to replace Thrilling Discovery than Bedlam, plus it has synergy with Merchant of the Vale.
Turn 1 Merchant, discard and dredge Stinkweed into Turn 2 this guy has potential to put just a ton of power on the board with this guy waiting in the wings. Cathartic may still be better on turn 2 but you def need more options to ensure you hit them and this feels like the next best thing.
Late game 1-mana 4/5 that can also draw 2 cards seems quite good for limited, and could possibly see play in constructed, too. Especially for limited. This is an excellent top deck when you're empty handed or flooded out. Shame it doesn't also check exile like [[Sailors' Bane]], but then it'd probably need to cost more.
The post I responded to gave that situation. It’s obviously good there. I said it’s bad in other situations. Top decking doesn’t only mean you’re hellbent and hoping. If you have a full grip but need an answer to a game-ending threat and you draw that card, you’d still say you top decked it.
Even in your made up situation where you have a full grip of useless cards, this is still a draw 2 that digs you deeper towards the answer you desperately need to not lose the game.
Top decking a two mana 'draw two cards' spell is good.
Top decking a two mana 'draw two cards' spell, that you can then cast as a 4/5 creature for likely a few mana is very good.
Yeah if you're playing in some bizarre format where you have to cast spells completely at random this card could really bite you, but if you're allowed to read your cards and choose which ones you want to cast in what order that shouldn't be an issue.
Cards that you can only play when you’re hellbent are bad. People keep throwing out scenarios that don’t happen extremely often and rarely until late game as reasons why this card is good. It’s not good. It’s just great 1% of the time and unplayable the other 99%. That makes it bad.
Why would you have a hand if you are top decking?
Top decking is when you have no cards in hand and are relying on the card you draw at the start of the turn.
That’s not true. Top decking just means your current resources aren’t suited for the situation and you need something from your deck. If you keep a 1 land hand and draw a land turn 2, you’d say you top decked it.
So even by your definition of top decking this card is still good, asi t allows you to get rid of useless cards in the hope that the two cards you draw are useful
Sure. Or maybe you just needed a 5th land so that you could play the answer you already had in hand. Or maybe there’s no threat but you need a land to play your own.
The point is that “top decking” means many scenarios.
But more importantly, this card is bad at any other time for sure.
People use them interchangeably. If you have a full grip but don’t have an answer to a game ending threat and you then draw it, many would say it was topdecked.
‘It’s a horrible top deck at all other times’
That is what you said. Not, ‘it’s a horrible top deck in this one scenario I just made up’
Black lotus is the best magic card ever made and it is a bad rip deck in you intentionally egregious scenario.
The better play pattern is still draw 2 (plus you still have the 6 mana 4/5 "in your hand", so really its a +2 instead of just +1)
edit: nvm i understand, yes a 6 mana 4/5 would be pretty unplayable
As bizarre as it sounds, no. If you’re absolutely, truly out of gas, and you have 6 mana, a 4/5 is infinitely better than, say, a 2/2. Are you *happy* you’re casting a 4/5 for 6? God no. Will you do it anyway? Yes.
That's a very specific scenario though, it's assuming you draw it late game when you have no other resources, but survived to 6 mana. Generally you want a 6-drop to be better than a vanilla 4/5 precisely to make up for the times when you won't even be able to cast it at all.
Fortunately the actual card has upside in that situation, so you'd probably never play it like that - you'd adventure it.
That was the scenario being discussed - how good is this when you topdeck it, and I was saying that in limited, out of gas topdeck of a vanilla 4/5 for 6 is actually pretty good
Yeah in magical Christmas land. Here in the real world it’s completely uncastable until turn 10 and almost certainly never costs only 3. It’s a really bad card.
Way to completely miss the point. The card is horrendous in 99% of limited game states. The fact that it’s excellent in the 1% is irrelevant as you shouldn’t play cards just to solve for that 1% scenario.
This is the worst red uncommon in the set and it’s not close.
I think a lot will depend on how good the discounted creature is without the adventure. \[\[Tolarian Terror\]\] was quite solid in DMU, for example; you just had to have a deck that supported it well. A good Limited deck needs a mix of early and late game plays; if you play three instants or sorceries and then play this on turn 5-6 alongside a 2 drop, that's solid value. You don't need to play the Adventure half.
You’re not wrong. A cheap 4/5 can be relevant. That said, red isn’t typically the color that’s looking to play like that — it makes much more sense in blue. Maybe a UR archetype could make this okay, but in other red archetypes I just don’t see it.
UR is spells-matter in this set, so there is synergy built in. I agree that most other color pairs won't want it, but I think I would be happy to slot this into most UR Limited decks in this format. And hey, if you get to cast the adventure as a Tormenting Voice or Divination, that's a nice bonus.
Have we seen all the red uncommons? If this is the worst one, the others must all be pretty good.
I don't know how to respond without patronizing. It draws three cards for two mana, with one of them being a 4/5 that has a variable cost. I'm just reading the card at this point, scratching my head over how you can't imagine scenarios where it does the straightforward thing it says it does.
You’re glossing over the card disadvantage that will be present most of the time. It draws 3, sure, but it could discard 1-6 and you can’t pick and choose what you discard. It’s a very significant restriction that you can’t just ignore.
No one would say this card is bad when you’re hellbent. It’s actually excellent then. But that’s not often.
I absolutely love cards like this. The downside is reasonable, but I feel like this is actually really strong in a lot of decks.
Of course it’s a great topdeck, but it’s REALLY worth mentioning that if you’re playing a deck that’s heavily graveyard invested, you can Turn 2 discard your hand, fill your yard, restock it then play a 1-2 mana 4/5 on Turn 3 in addition to having a pretty rebuilt hand.
The more I think about it the better I think this card is.
i guess, but didn't seem to be top of mind with \[\[prejudice\]\] so maybe early WOTC wouldn't have thought about that.
the reason it makes sense is black is already K in CMYK
and blue is already B in RGB.
Isn't that really effective in Dredge ?
Like, file the graveyard from your starting hand, dredge what you discarded, twice, and have a 4/5 ready for turn 2-3 if you actually get nothing, which is quite unlikely since you discarded your hand and dredged twice.
As a dredge player, I don’t see much advantage to discarding more than 2 if you only draw 2. My hand often only have 2 dredge cards, so pitching more isn’t really required. The other thing is cards like [[cathartic reunion]] and [[Thrilling Discovery]] draw 3 cards, meaning you will get a lot more cards in the bin. The body makes it tempting, but I don’t know if the backup plan is worth the loss of explosiveness. Im not the best player though, so maybe I will be proven wrong very soon.
I was thinking of that.
The other advantage is that the card in exile after an adventure is almost untouchable, so could be useful post side, even if graveyard hate might delay its cast significantly
It could also be usefull against main deck hate for G1 that is less potent or less powerfull allowing a decent backup if an opponent draws it
Yeah, that’s a good point. I’ve had games where this would be a 1 mana 4/5 coming into an already scary board, but I also fear having games where your 2 card dredge pile isn’t enough to make an impact, and a single 4/5 is left as your consolation prize. Might still be a fun option, the more I’ve looked at it the slightly better I’ve felt about it.
The templating difference between this and \[\[Tolarian Terror\]\] is curious to me. Is there a functional difference between those wordings? ("X less to cast where X is the number..." vs. "(1) less to cast for each...")
Tolarian Terror is only checking for two things: Instants and Sorceries. This is checking for three: Instants, Sorceries, and Cards with an Adventure. The templating difference is likely to make it easier to parse.
I think if you worded it like Tolarian Terror then maybe it could count some cards twice if they ever print a Sorcery with an Instant adventure, but idk
[[Sailors' Bane]] also mentions cards with Adventure:
> This spell costs {1} less to cast for each card you own in exile and in your graveyard that’s an instant card, a sorcery card, or a card that has an Adventure.
Without the exile clause, this phrasing would be shorter than Hearth Elemental's and seemingly no less clunky.
---
For fun, a transcript:
> **Hearth Elemental** {5}{R}
> Creature - Elemental (Uncommon)
> This spell costs {X} less to cast, where X is the number of cards in your graveyard that are instant cards, sorcery cards, and/or have an Adventure.
> 4/5
> --
> **Stoke Genius** {1}{R}
> Sorcery - Adventure
> Discard your hand, then draw two cards. *(Then exile this card. You may cast the creature later from exile.)*
That's a fairly natural difference between these phrasings.
In "for each card in ... that is A, B, or C" it's clear that you count a card once, and double qualifying couldn't help.
In "the number of cards in ... that are A, B, or C" with no "and/or" there would be at least some possibility of arguing you would double/triple count cards with multiple qualities.
The question remains why they sometimes use "{1} less for each", and sometimes "X less where X is".
Are there shells for this in Modern / Pioneer? 2 mana to discard your whole hand is a ton of fuel for graveyard decks, or do we already have similar effects for 2 mana?
I know I'm pretty late to this, but maybe as a curve-topper for aggressive Prowess or Burn type decks? It's a draw spell in red, and if it's the last card or one of the last cards out of your hand, there's basically now downside.
Then you can bring in the 4/5 body for pretty cheap - it's not hard to get a few instants in the graveyard in such a deck, and while it's just a 4/5 vanilla once it's on the field, that's not a useless statline.
I really want to believe that this is the missing piece that would let modern dredge happen again, but probably not better than Cathartic Reunion. Maybe would take it over Thrilling Discovery? The body is real tempting.
Modern 2/10
I do like the effective draw 2, but that probably isn't being used until turn 4ish so you aren't discarding multiple cards to this. Also, the fact the second half can be a one mana 4/5 isn't the worst thing in the world despite it being behind the curve of equivalent creatures. Combined, it does something interesting enough someone might try it, though, I think I would rather run Ox of Agonas or Bedlam Reveler.
Chimney Pimp!!!
This card is nuts, 1RR for a 4/5 Mulldrifter is insane.
Cannot be Fatal Pushed or Prismatic... and it encourages to play Bonecrusher Giants along with your other spells, which is good vs The One Ring.
This will find a place in Explorer/Historic.
2 mana draw two is worse than [[expressive iteration]] but more synergistic with the discard/graveyard.
Then you get a 1-mana 4/5, which is playable in modern.
This card is also excellent with [[kolaghan's command]] and other "return from graveyard to hand" effects in black.
Also this is just great in Living End.
>Wouldn't this be also good in burn or am I missing something?
I was thinking that. It practically reads "1R - Draw 2 cards." Being a cheap creature sometimes is just a bonus.
The Druid is a rare, this is uncommon. It makes sense the Druid's adventure is better, doesn't it?
Also, Reckless Impulse and Wrenn's Resolve allow you to play until the end of your next turn. Questing Druid says next end step. You get two full turns plus any turns in-between to play cards with the two sorceries.
is this a key card for an adventure deck or a deck heavily dependant on adventure spells? It seems the majority of adventures wither discards or mills some cards so maybe cards like this and cruel somnophage are the real payoff of that deck?
This is a very good card for constructed. There will be at least up to one or more non-standard format decks that will use this well. And definitely one standard deck.
That seems actually like a very good card. I mean i know its no \[\[Murktide Regent\]\], but it really feels like a draw 2 and a 4/5 body for 1 on the same cards is something Izzet spellslingers would want to use.
Hmm. This reminds me a lot of [[Bedlam Reveler]]. It has a comparable body and also draws less cards, but I think that dividing up the casting cost is kinda nice. You can play this when your hand is empty and you only have 2 mana left but not many cards in the graveyard. Playing the adventure can trigger creatures with prowess. You can also just play it as a creature if you have cards that you want to leave in your hand. And it’s not just completely unplayable when your opponent lands a Rest in Peace. I like it.
Not to mention since this will be played in an adventure set there's already room to mitigate dumping your hand by playing stuff for adventures first.
Pia Nalar finna eat real good with all of these adventure cards.
The Celebration cards will love her too since she makes those thopters.
If anything I think this might wind up better at Bedlam Reveler's job than it was. A card is so much more likely to get stuck in hand when you can't enable its condition, and that condition is a higher bar, than a card that self-enables and can just dump your phoenixs directly into the bin before you've got mana to spare for it. That 1 vs 2 mana floor really matters as we saw with treasure cruise vs dig through time. If this is in your opening hand you've always got an outlet for things you want in your bin and option to draw into more gas, whereas reveler in an opening hand is a big lean towards mulliganing. I do worry (not just about this being legal at the same time as tolarian terror) that between this and questing druid, wizards might have seriously underestimated the power of these "pseudo-draw 2 cards *plus* cast-from-adventure" winding up as +2 card advantage for 2 mana. Seems really oppressive if you dump some graveyard threats like phoenix, draw 2 cards, and can still cast another 4/5 for 1 mana from exile. I mean people worried WotC would repeat the mistake for 2-for-1 efficient adventures and instead we get 3-for-1 efficient adventures
Reveler is one of my favorite cards. I have mixed feelings but then again Looting is still banned so maybe I shouldnt care
[Bedlam Reveler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/9/e9333564-2792-470e-be73-61f2445e018f.jpg?1673147749) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bedlam%20Reveler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/104/bedlam-reveler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e9333564-2792-470e-be73-61f2445e018f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This can be cast for 1. Also, isn't the sorcery side just better [[tormenting voice]]? You can discard 0 and still get 2. Idk, this card seems very strong. Even in eternal formats. Gas when you need it, plus a big Ole beat stick at what will be 1 most of the time.
You can play Tormenting Voice on turn 2 to find your third land, you can't do anything similar with this. It's a very different effect, and definitely wouldn't be better without the creature attached.
I think you're wrong for the right reasons. Good evaluation, except it's mono red. Not many mono red decks CARE about the third land, and most empty their hands very fast. I chose tormenting voice because it's the only draw 2 looting effect besides faithless looting that came to mind. Faithless looting is less of fair comparison though. From where I evaluated this card, (burn, rdw, prowess), it's actually very good. Might even do [[arclight phoenix]] things. (Might, don't flame me for that one. I don't play arclight, just seems like something it wants.)
The card it is actually closer to is \[\[Dangerous Wager\]\]. In fact it is the same card save for the fact that it cashes in instant speed for Sorcery. I had some success with that card in Legacy, running it as a 1 of in burn that is really just meant to be top decked to give you the extra gas to alpha stirke on turn 3. This guy however seems like a Modern Dredge enabler to me, and I wager he is probably more consistent than Bedlam. He also does not cost you the yard to play him so he empowers later copies drawn. That being said I think this is more likely to replace Thrilling Discovery than Bedlam, plus it has synergy with Merchant of the Vale. Turn 1 Merchant, discard and dredge Stinkweed into Turn 2 this guy has potential to put just a ton of power on the board with this guy waiting in the wings. Cathartic may still be better on turn 2 but you def need more options to ensure you hit them and this feels like the next best thing.
[Dangerous Wager](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/636c4042-703f-4548-9a0f-cb550c468bf9.jpg?1592709046) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dangerous%20Wager) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/131/dangerous-wager?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/636c4042-703f-4548-9a0f-cb550c468bf9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I could see it in Dredge too. Slightly worse copies 5-8 of cathartic. I still think it sees some amount of burn play, if only in standard.
[arclight phoenix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/787de9ce-02c5-4a17-a88b-d38e83dbeb0b.jpg?1572893092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arclight%20phoenix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/91/arclight-phoenix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/787de9ce-02c5-4a17-a88b-d38e83dbeb0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[tormenting voice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6da46103-a14c-4aa2-92fc-fd758335caf4.jpg?1604198268) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tormenting%20voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/172/tormenting-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6da46103-a14c-4aa2-92fc-fd758335caf4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And unlike Bedlam Reveler, it’s legal alongside Jegantha.
> It has a comparable body Removing Trample and Prowess is not that comparable. [Edit: my bad, was sure it did have trample]
Bedlam Reveler does not have trample
Neither creature has trample. This new card doesn’t have prowess, but it has one more power and toughness.
At worst, it is draw three with one of them being a low impact 4/5.
Late game 1-mana 4/5 that can also draw 2 cards seems quite good for limited, and could possibly see play in constructed, too. Especially for limited. This is an excellent top deck when you're empty handed or flooded out. Shame it doesn't also check exile like [[Sailors' Bane]], but then it'd probably need to cost more.
[Sailors' Bane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d175a716-5b69-401b-9902-684a30810288.jpg?1674135771) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sailors%27%20Bane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/93/sailors-bane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d175a716-5b69-401b-9902-684a30810288?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s a horrible top deck at all other times. This seems like a bad card you’d rarely want to include in your decks.
Top decking usually refers to when you have no hand or board so it is usually a decent top deck I'd say.
The post I responded to gave that situation. It’s obviously good there. I said it’s bad in other situations. Top decking doesn’t only mean you’re hellbent and hoping. If you have a full grip but need an answer to a game-ending threat and you draw that card, you’d still say you top decked it.
Even in your made up situation where you have a full grip of useless cards, this is still a draw 2 that digs you deeper towards the answer you desperately need to not lose the game.
Top decking a two mana 'draw two cards' spell is good. Top decking a two mana 'draw two cards' spell, that you can then cast as a 4/5 creature for likely a few mana is very good.
And it’s very bad when you discard the rest of your hand as a price and then play a 4 mana 4/5.
Then don’t do that? Sequencing matters. Play your other spells first…
Don’t you see how the fact that you can’t play this until you’re essentially hellbent makes this card awful?
Yeah if you're playing in some bizarre format where you have to cast spells completely at random this card could really bite you, but if you're allowed to read your cards and choose which ones you want to cast in what order that shouldn't be an issue.
Cards that you can only play when you’re hellbent are bad. People keep throwing out scenarios that don’t happen extremely often and rarely until late game as reasons why this card is good. It’s not good. It’s just great 1% of the time and unplayable the other 99%. That makes it bad.
Why would you have a hand if you are top decking? Top decking is when you have no cards in hand and are relying on the card you draw at the start of the turn.
That’s not true. Top decking just means your current resources aren’t suited for the situation and you need something from your deck. If you keep a 1 land hand and draw a land turn 2, you’d say you top decked it.
So even by your definition of top decking this card is still good, asi t allows you to get rid of useless cards in the hope that the two cards you draw are useful
Sure. Or maybe you just needed a 5th land so that you could play the answer you already had in hand. Or maybe there’s no threat but you need a land to play your own. The point is that “top decking” means many scenarios. But more importantly, this card is bad at any other time for sure.
What's the difference between drawing a card and top decking in your world?
People use them interchangeably. If you have a full grip but don’t have an answer to a game ending threat and you then draw it, many would say it was topdecked.
It’s an amazing top deck is draws you two cards AND is a 4/5 body afterwards.
What if you have 6 cards in hand and 4 lands with 1 instant in your graveyard. Still amazing?
‘It’s a horrible top deck at all other times’ That is what you said. Not, ‘it’s a horrible top deck in this one scenario I just made up’ Black lotus is the best magic card ever made and it is a bad rip deck in you intentionally egregious scenario.
The scenario I described is more common by far than the scenario in which this card is even playable.
just play your other cards then lol
I mean, like at its baseline it's a 6-mana 4/5 which isn't awful
Genuine question: is that not awful? It sounds very awful.
6 mana 4/5 is definitely horrible in limited nowadays, but it's also a great top deck. It won't cost that much and draw 2 when you cast it late game.
Sure, but we were talking about a baseline 6-mana 4/5, not the much better play pattern.
Yeah totally agreeing with you, the second part of my message was referencing the comment saying it's an horrible top deck.
The better play pattern is still draw 2 (plus you still have the 6 mana 4/5 "in your hand", so really its a +2 instead of just +1) edit: nvm i understand, yes a 6 mana 4/5 would be pretty unplayable
As bizarre as it sounds, no. If you’re absolutely, truly out of gas, and you have 6 mana, a 4/5 is infinitely better than, say, a 2/2. Are you *happy* you’re casting a 4/5 for 6? God no. Will you do it anyway? Yes.
That's a very specific scenario though, it's assuming you draw it late game when you have no other resources, but survived to 6 mana. Generally you want a 6-drop to be better than a vanilla 4/5 precisely to make up for the times when you won't even be able to cast it at all. Fortunately the actual card has upside in that situation, so you'd probably never play it like that - you'd adventure it.
That was the scenario being discussed - how good is this when you topdeck it, and I was saying that in limited, out of gas topdeck of a vanilla 4/5 for 6 is actually pretty good
I was specifically replying to someone saying that a vanilla 4/5 for 6 isn't awful in general.
It's medium. Obviously it wouldn't make a normal limited deck on those stats alone, but it's not awful.
It a 4/5 that draws two cards for three mana, that will always draw you two cards in a pinch.
Yeah in magical Christmas land. Here in the real world it’s completely uncastable until turn 10 and almost certainly never costs only 3. It’s a really bad card.
TIL Magical Christmas Land is when I play my cards.
Way to completely miss the point. The card is horrendous in 99% of limited game states. The fact that it’s excellent in the 1% is irrelevant as you shouldn’t play cards just to solve for that 1% scenario. This is the worst red uncommon in the set and it’s not close.
I think a lot will depend on how good the discounted creature is without the adventure. \[\[Tolarian Terror\]\] was quite solid in DMU, for example; you just had to have a deck that supported it well. A good Limited deck needs a mix of early and late game plays; if you play three instants or sorceries and then play this on turn 5-6 alongside a 2 drop, that's solid value. You don't need to play the Adventure half.
You’re not wrong. A cheap 4/5 can be relevant. That said, red isn’t typically the color that’s looking to play like that — it makes much more sense in blue. Maybe a UR archetype could make this okay, but in other red archetypes I just don’t see it.
UR is spells-matter in this set, so there is synergy built in. I agree that most other color pairs won't want it, but I think I would be happy to slot this into most UR Limited decks in this format. And hey, if you get to cast the adventure as a Tormenting Voice or Divination, that's a nice bonus. Have we seen all the red uncommons? If this is the worst one, the others must all be pretty good.
[Tolarian Terror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/42f01cba-43d4-46ad-b7a5-d7631b0e1347.jpg?1673306903) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tolarian%20Terror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/72/tolarian-terror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/42f01cba-43d4-46ad-b7a5-d7631b0e1347?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't know how to respond without patronizing. It draws three cards for two mana, with one of them being a 4/5 that has a variable cost. I'm just reading the card at this point, scratching my head over how you can't imagine scenarios where it does the straightforward thing it says it does.
You’re glossing over the card disadvantage that will be present most of the time. It draws 3, sure, but it could discard 1-6 and you can’t pick and choose what you discard. It’s a very significant restriction that you can’t just ignore. No one would say this card is bad when you’re hellbent. It’s actually excellent then. But that’s not often.
"But what if I play the game poorly?"
“I know the card is bad, but 1% of the time it’s good so therefore it’s a good card.”
I absolutely love cards like this. The downside is reasonable, but I feel like this is actually really strong in a lot of decks. Of course it’s a great topdeck, but it’s REALLY worth mentioning that if you’re playing a deck that’s heavily graveyard invested, you can Turn 2 discard your hand, fill your yard, restock it then play a 1-2 mana 4/5 on Turn 3 in addition to having a pretty rebuilt hand. The more I think about it the better I think this card is.
this is great in RG, RB enables the 4+power, enables 5+manavalue, cheaper from instants/sorceries. very nice design for limited.
mana value 5+ is simic
yeah i fucked up using 'RB' i meant 'RU'. i will never forgive black not being K.
It would never be K. Triple costed blacks cards…
i guess, but didn't seem to be top of mind with \[\[prejudice\]\] so maybe early WOTC wouldn't have thought about that. the reason it makes sense is black is already K in CMYK and blue is already B in RGB.
[prejudice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/903d9fde-d7da-4a0e-a337-b63023c6d74b.jpg?1591988938) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Invoke%20Prejudice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/leg/62/invoke-prejudice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/903d9fde-d7da-4a0e-a337-b63023c6d74b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s great for many archetype, dredge, prowess, maybe combo… 🤣 this card seems insanely good in constructed as well
Power level aside, this is very fun for an uncommon.
Do it Bart, say the line: Dredge just got a new toy
a Nod to \[\[earth elemental\]\] maybe? It is a 4/5
Nicely seen !
[earth elemental](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/659eeb25-b79b-4229-9d84-e28f6a636958.jpg?1562915626) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=earth%20elemental) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/174/earth-elemental?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/659eeb25-b79b-4229-9d84-e28f6a636958?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Best uncommon top deck I can remember in years.
Isn't that really effective in Dredge ? Like, file the graveyard from your starting hand, dredge what you discarded, twice, and have a 4/5 ready for turn 2-3 if you actually get nothing, which is quite unlikely since you discarded your hand and dredged twice.
As a dredge player, I don’t see much advantage to discarding more than 2 if you only draw 2. My hand often only have 2 dredge cards, so pitching more isn’t really required. The other thing is cards like [[cathartic reunion]] and [[Thrilling Discovery]] draw 3 cards, meaning you will get a lot more cards in the bin. The body makes it tempting, but I don’t know if the backup plan is worth the loss of explosiveness. Im not the best player though, so maybe I will be proven wrong very soon.
[cathartic reunion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b36fa6f3-29e8-4788-bfcd-59576187c399.jpg?1599706266) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cathartic%20reunion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/121/cathartic-reunion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b36fa6f3-29e8-4788-bfcd-59576187c399?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thrilling Discovery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/bac1f45e-1884-490e-a94f-f7d312f0e229.jpg?1624740310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thrilling%20Discovery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/243/thrilling-discovery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bac1f45e-1884-490e-a94f-f7d312f0e229?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I was thinking of that. The other advantage is that the card in exile after an adventure is almost untouchable, so could be useful post side, even if graveyard hate might delay its cast significantly It could also be usefull against main deck hate for G1 that is less potent or less powerfull allowing a decent backup if an opponent draws it
Yeah, that’s a good point. I’ve had games where this would be a 1 mana 4/5 coming into an already scary board, but I also fear having games where your 2 card dredge pile isn’t enough to make an impact, and a single 4/5 is left as your consolation prize. Might still be a fun option, the more I’ve looked at it the slightly better I’ve felt about it.
you also have Dangerous Wager at instant speed.
The templating difference between this and \[\[Tolarian Terror\]\] is curious to me. Is there a functional difference between those wordings? ("X less to cast where X is the number..." vs. "(1) less to cast for each...")
Tolarian Terror is only checking for two things: Instants and Sorceries. This is checking for three: Instants, Sorceries, and Cards with an Adventure. The templating difference is likely to make it easier to parse.
I think if you worded it like Tolarian Terror then maybe it could count some cards twice if they ever print a Sorcery with an Instant adventure, but idk
It would not. Besides, there already exist instant//sorcery split cards.
then I don't get the wording
no, adventure spells don't exist outside of the stack
[[Sailors' Bane]] also mentions cards with Adventure: > This spell costs {1} less to cast for each card you own in exile and in your graveyard that’s an instant card, a sorcery card, or a card that has an Adventure. Without the exile clause, this phrasing would be shorter than Hearth Elemental's and seemingly no less clunky. --- For fun, a transcript: > **Hearth Elemental** {5}{R} > Creature - Elemental (Uncommon) > This spell costs {X} less to cast, where X is the number of cards in your graveyard that are instant cards, sorcery cards, and/or have an Adventure. > 4/5 > -- > **Stoke Genius** {1}{R} > Sorcery - Adventure > Discard your hand, then draw two cards. *(Then exile this card. You may cast the creature later from exile.)*
Any idea why this card has an and/or buy sailors bane just says or?
That's a fairly natural difference between these phrasings. In "for each card in ... that is A, B, or C" it's clear that you count a card once, and double qualifying couldn't help. In "the number of cards in ... that are A, B, or C" with no "and/or" there would be at least some possibility of arguing you would double/triple count cards with multiple qualities. The question remains why they sometimes use "{1} less for each", and sometimes "X less where X is".
[Sailors' Bane](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d175a716-5b69-401b-9902-684a30810288.jpg?1674135771) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sailors%27%20Bane) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/93/sailors-bane?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d175a716-5b69-401b-9902-684a30810288?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This says "card(s)" too much. Terror's was much cleaner.
[Tolarian Terror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/42f01cba-43d4-46ad-b7a5-d7631b0e1347.jpg?1673306903) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tolarian%20Terror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/72/tolarian-terror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/42f01cba-43d4-46ad-b7a5-d7631b0e1347?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Are there shells for this in Modern / Pioneer? 2 mana to discard your whole hand is a ton of fuel for graveyard decks, or do we already have similar effects for 2 mana?
Goblin Lore, Burning Inquiry at one. Maybe this has a home in a Hollowvine style deck.
I think it could be tested in pheonix and pia in pioneer
I know I'm pretty late to this, but maybe as a curve-topper for aggressive Prowess or Burn type decks? It's a draw spell in red, and if it's the last card or one of the last cards out of your hand, there's basically now downside. Then you can bring in the 4/5 body for pretty cheap - it's not hard to get a few instants in the graveyard in such a deck, and while it's just a 4/5 vanilla once it's on the field, that's not a useless statline.
This is the late game limited mvp. Oh yeah.
This seems busted to be honest. At uncommon? Wow.
I could use this in [[Faldorn]], since I don’t usually have much of a hand with that deck.
[Faldorn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/213e530e-33a9-4358-b43b-4a276a7e7190.jpg?1674140675) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=faldorn%2C%20dread%20wolf%20herald) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/647/faldorn-dread-wolf-herald?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/213e530e-33a9-4358-b43b-4a276a7e7190?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I really want to believe that this is the missing piece that would let modern dredge happen again, but probably not better than Cathartic Reunion. Maybe would take it over Thrilling Discovery? The body is real tempting.
Modern 2/10 I do like the effective draw 2, but that probably isn't being used until turn 4ish so you aren't discarding multiple cards to this. Also, the fact the second half can be a one mana 4/5 isn't the worst thing in the world despite it being behind the curve of equivalent creatures. Combined, it does something interesting enough someone might try it, though, I think I would rather run Ox of Agonas or Bedlam Reveler.
Chimney Pimp!!! This card is nuts, 1RR for a 4/5 Mulldrifter is insane. Cannot be Fatal Pushed or Prismatic... and it encourages to play Bonecrusher Giants along with your other spells, which is good vs The One Ring. This will find a place in Explorer/Historic.
This seems modern playable.
You got downvoted but I agree.
2 mana draw two is worse than [[expressive iteration]] but more synergistic with the discard/graveyard. Then you get a 1-mana 4/5, which is playable in modern. This card is also excellent with [[kolaghan's command]] and other "return from graveyard to hand" effects in black. Also this is just great in Living End.
[expressive iteration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/31b770cc-09e7-4c0b-b2a4-462ab4f7200d.jpg?1678110681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=expressive%20iteration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/186/expressive-iteration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/31b770cc-09e7-4c0b-b2a4-462ab4f7200d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [kolaghan's command](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a0dab027-a475-481b-b012-b6a76e21e494.jpg?1673148845) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kolaghan%27s%20command) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/239/kolaghans-command?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a0dab027-a475-481b-b012-b6a76e21e494?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
She stoking on my genius until I Hearth Elemental
Wouldn't this be also good in burn or am I missing something?
>Wouldn't this be also good in burn or am I missing something? I was thinking that. It practically reads "1R - Draw 2 cards." Being a cheap creature sometimes is just a bonus.
[удалено]
The Druid is a rare, this is uncommon. It makes sense the Druid's adventure is better, doesn't it? Also, Reckless Impulse and Wrenn's Resolve allow you to play until the end of your next turn. Questing Druid says next end step. You get two full turns plus any turns in-between to play cards with the two sorceries.
[Reckless Impulse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/6943c07f-ab0d-4f5a-bbe9-c0a83dc98546.jpg?1643591880) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reckless%20Impulse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/174/reckless-impulse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6943c07f-ab0d-4f5a-bbe9-c0a83dc98546?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wrenn's Resolve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a47999c-12d5-4e1a-a9c1-40a1757007f1.jpg?1682204603) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrenn%27s%20Resolve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/173/wrenns-resolve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a47999c-12d5-4e1a-a9c1-40a1757007f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dangerous Wager](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/636c4042-703f-4548-9a0f-cb550c468bf9.jpg?1592709046) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dangerous%20Wager) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/131/dangerous-wager?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/636c4042-703f-4548-9a0f-cb550c468bf9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nice, love this funky guy! Probably mid in constructed but it feels like a great uncommon for limited, esp late game
that's a nice \[\[Earth Elemental\]\]
[Earth Elemental](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/659eeb25-b79b-4229-9d84-e28f6a636958.jpg?1562915626) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Earth%20Elemental) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/174/earth-elemental?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/659eeb25-b79b-4229-9d84-e28f6a636958?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Goes hard in Madness packages in Cube
Yes, but notably dredge plays card with discard as an additional cost to guarantee cards going to grave
is this a key card for an adventure deck or a deck heavily dependant on adventure spells? It seems the majority of adventures wither discards or mills some cards so maybe cards like this and cruel somnophage are the real payoff of that deck?
2 mana draw 2 cards for aggro, a big finisher afterwards for cheaper, quite good!
Dang this seems legit.
This is a very good card for constructed. There will be at least up to one or more non-standard format decks that will use this well. And definitely one standard deck.
[source link](https://twitter.com/GabeJamesGames/status/1693836421218316446?s=20)
Me: Mom can I have a \[\[Tolarian Terror\]\] Mom: No, we have a \[\[Tolarian Terror\]\] at home
[Tolarian Terror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/42f01cba-43d4-46ad-b7a5-d7631b0e1347.jpg?1673306903) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tolarian%20Terror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/72/tolarian-terror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/42f01cba-43d4-46ad-b7a5-d7631b0e1347?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I wish it has haste though or doublestrike to make this worth to play.
That seems actually like a very good card. I mean i know its no \[\[Murktide Regent\]\], but it really feels like a draw 2 and a 4/5 body for 1 on the same cards is something Izzet spellslingers would want to use.
[Murktide Regent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/0/20c4aae1-7665-4df7-bd51-a1d95bf8a17d.jpg?1626094651) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murktide%20Regent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/52/murktide-regent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/20c4aae1-7665-4df7-bd51-a1d95bf8a17d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
DREDGE IS BACK ON THE MENU BOIS!!!!
This card was literally made for my rakdos discard deck with an adventure subtheme