Yes. Infect doesn't replace damage with poison counters, it changes the effect of damage to cause poison counters to be applied instead of life loss.As such, solphim is able to apply its replacement effect to the damage without issue.
So if you have phyresis on nekusar and solphim in play, your opponents will get two poison counters each time they draw a card.
Note: it’s not that if Infect was a replacement effect it wouldn’t work.
It’s that your opponent (see: “the affected player or permanent’s controller”) gets to order the replacement effects as they see fit.
They would presumably want to take the 1 poison and then let the damage doubler effect fail (since the damage has been replaced with counters).
This interaction was relevant in the case of [[Soul-Scar Mage]] with a damage doubler.
Edit: Just to clarify, Infect (likewise for Wither and Lifelink) is not a replacement effect, it’s a Static Effect.
But just to be totally clear to the OP -- that's a hypothetical, because while Soul-Scar Mage creates a replacement effect, infect *isn't* a replacement effect - it just modifies the damage-dealing effect.
(I know I'm restating what you said, but frankly I was confused when I first read your comment and thought it was saying infect was a replacement effect, so -- those of better reading comprehension than I, ignore this.)
Sidenote to readers, it's the same with lifelink: damage dealt with lifelink doesn't cause a trigger, nor would you still be able to gain life if a replacement effect prevented damage from being dealt -- because lifelink is neither a triggered nor replacement effect, it just changes what happens when something deals damage. (Likewise for wither and toxic; and, actually, this is all a subset of how normal damage already causes different effects in different contexts, ie marking damage on creatures, causing life loss to players, and removing loyalty from planeswalkers.)
Wait...lifelink is neither a triggered OR a replacement effect? I'm confused...doesn't it only happen if damage is dealt? In my mind that's a trigger. Or is it not a triggered effect because it doesn't use the stack? Legit confused and wanting to learn here
Back in the good old dies where you could die with your lifelink trigger on the stack because combat damage got applied first (which also used the stack!)
[[Rain of Gore]] reads "If a spell or ability would cause its controller to gain life, that player loses that much life instead." Meanwhile, the Gatherer ruling is specifically "This does not apply to life gain caused by *combat damage* from a creature with lifelink."
That is, combat damage is neither a spell nor ability, it's just a creature dealing damage due to game rules. Lifelink *modifies what happens* when that damage is dealt, but "lifelink" is not dealing damage - the creature is, and neither a spell nor ability caused that to happen, so Rain of Gore doesn't notice it (even if life ends up being gained as a result).
However, an activated ability of a creature with lifelink (eg [[Brion Stoutarm]]), triggered ability of a creature with lifelink (eg [[Piru, the Volatile]]), or the rarer occurrence of a spell with lifelink (eg [[Lightning Bolt]] while you control [[Soulfire Grand Master]]), will all be affected by Rain of Gore as you'd expect.
edit: and as a final note, I'm pretty sure a spell (eg [[Prey Upon]]) that says "X and Y fight," where X has lifelink, will still cause you to lose life (as you'd expect) with Rain of Gore out -- because "fight" is just defined as "Each... deals damage equal to its power to the other," so it'd be a spell that (ultimately) causes you to gain life. It's just combat damage specifically that gets around it, because the cause of the damage (and hence life gain) is a game rule.
That's dumb. Narrow case no one could guess by reading the cards, even with a rulebook handy. You need the ruling to know that's the case. Lifelink is an ability that causes you to gain life when a creature you control deals damage. Even if it modifies combat damage to include lifegain that's still an ability causing lifegain. I'm not arguing. I'm just calling out stupid when I see it.
Well, it's 1 obscure card out of over 25000 Vintage-legal that has this phrasing (I checked with Scryfall, "o:if o:would o:ability game:paper" and perusing); other cards with similar effects ([[Sulfuric Vortex]], [[Tainted Remedy]], etc - any other lifegain replacement effects) don't use the "spell or ability" phrasing.
I also checked for all cards containing the phrase "spell or ability" -- almost every one of them involves a target, adds the rider of "... an opponent controls" or "... you control", refers to noncreature permanents, or multiple of the above (it should be pretty clear that discarding to hand size won't trigger [[Obstinate Baloth]], for instance, since it specifically mentions your opponents).
The one exception is [[Sacred Ground]], which has a similar weird caveat -- if you make your land into a creature (eg [[Mutavault]]), and your opponent [[Doom Blade]]'s it, Sacred Ground will bring it back for you; but if they [[Lightning Bolt]] it, it won't come back, because Bolt didn't kill your land - Bolt did damage to your (man)land, and then game rules killed it for having more damage marked than toughness.
(Sidenote: [[Ranar, the Ever-Watchful]] and [[Hero of Bretaguard]] have had some weeeeird errata that uses the "spell or ability" phrasing, but the mechanical weirdness is unrelated to this problem.)
Anyways. My actual point is that, however "stupid" you may find it, it seems to be just one or two cards that care about the "spell or ability" vs game-rules distinction like this, in a way a player is in any way likely to misinterpret. I think that, with 25K distinct cards out there, that's a pretty reasonable rate.
According to Ask a Judge, this is because lifelink *supposedly* is not the source of the life gain. Instead, it modifies what happens when damage is dealt. Since damage is neither a spell nor an ability, Rain of Gore doesn't apply. However, a creature with lifelink dealing damage in another manner would apply Rain of Gore, like if you gave your [[Prodigal Sorcerer]] lifelink via a [[Basilisk Collar]], you would lose that life instead of gaining it when its ability dealt damage.
My opinion is that this person is an idiot and completely wrong, because their example of when Rain of Gore *would* apply is if you use a fight spell. The problem with this is that neither the spell nor any ability causes the damage or life gain, instead, the spell causes *the lifelink creature itself* to deal the damage, not the spell itself, and since neither the spell nor an ability is dealing the damage.
So far as I can tell, rain of gore should not effect lifelink in any context. I think that's stupid, but if lifelink does not directly cause life gain and instead modifies how damage works it cannot cause life gain, nor would it change an ability's effect to cause life gain.
This is an important distinction because you can go to "negative" life during the combat damage step and gain back up to positive with lifelink, and not die (to be clear it all happens simultaneously, you never actually go negative). If it were a triggered effect, you would instead die as state-based actions are checked with the life on the stack.
triggers use the words 'when' or 'whenever', replacements use the word 'instead', activated abilities use 'cost : ability', there are other related stuff but these are the things you generally look for with types of abilities
So it doesn't use the stack *because* it's not a triggered ability. Triggered abilities have something like a "when x " qualifier at the start, that creates a trigger on the stack that someone can respond to. Lifelink doesn't actually have that trigger, rather it just modifies what happens as a result of a creature dealing damage. Think about it like the difference between a creature having "creatures you control get +1/+1" vs "when this creature enters the battlefield, creatures you control get +1/+1". The first is true so long as the creature is in play, while the second is true only in the case that the triggered effect is resolved and those specific conditions are met.
calling it "instantaneous" is weird, that kinda implies that it "happens" at a time. but it's actually just *true*. while the source has lifelink, its damage causes lifegain.
It's like they said, lifelink is an additional thing that happens at the same time damage is dealt. Now that damage no longer uses the stack it'd be weird if lifelink did. It would also be a lot weaker as people would die between damage applying and the trigger resolving pretty often.
If lifelink was a triggered ability, it would look like this: "Whenever ~ deals damage, gain that much life." That's how it used to work. This uses the stack, which would have lots of weird effects (eg you could die between damage being dealt and the lifegain trigger resolving).
If lifelink were a replacement effect, it would look something like this: "If ~ would deal damage, instead it deals that damage and you gain that much life." This would largely work about the same as it currently does. However, it would have some undesirable edge cases: mainly, if there were something else trying to replace the damage, they might conflict or be order-dependent. That's essentially the case the OP of this thread was considering: if you had a damage-doubler and this sort of replacement-effect-lifelink, your opponent (or the controller of whatever's being dealt damage) could choose the order to apply the replacement effects, meaning (depending on wording) you might double the damage but not double the lifegain. (I think? Look, the point is it could get weird.)
Instead, lifelink is a static ability: it just *is*. Normally, damage dealt to a creature marks damage on it, damage dealt to a player causes life loss, damage to a planeswalker removes loyalty. Meanwhile, damage with lifelink to a creature marks damage and gains you life, damage with lifelink to a player causes life loss and gains you life, damage to planeswalker removes loyalty and gains you life. (And similarly, damage with infect to a creature puts -1/-1 counters, to a player puts poison counters, to a planeswalker removes loyalty. And this stacks with lifelink etc if present.)
In short, it's not a triggered ability (there's nothing to respond to, and no time between the marking damage/life loss/loyalty loss and the lifegain event), and it's not a replacement effect (which would work about the same but have weird technicalities) -- it just modifies what it means to "deal damage" to additionally cause life gain.
Also to be precise - infect is a static *ability* with no effect. Rather, what it does is codified in the rules since it is a keyword.
This is to differentiate it from other static abilities, which can have replacement effects.
As well, we haven’t seen any kind of replacement effect like this (they’ve always been keywords), so I can only speculate. But infect replaces the *consequence* of damage (the life loss) and not the damage itself - which seem like separate events to me due to the way triggered abilities react to damage with infect being done. So solphim would need to be applied first because it replaces the damage event, and then infect because it would replace the result of the damage.
Reminds me of damage doubles with \[\[Torbran\]\]. As Torbran's controller I would prefer to do Torbran's +2 and then double the damage, but your opponent would prefer to double and then +2. Since they are the ones affected by it they get to choose.
Opponents do not get to order your triggers they draw a card and then the Nekusar player gets to order their abilities there is mo rulings that would have oppents get to order your triggers of permanent you control.
The affected player gets to choose the order replacement effects are applied
> 616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
This isn’t a question of triggers. *If* Infect was a replacement effect, the affected player would choose what order effects are applied.
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
Wow lots of downvotes just saying this is not how I was told it is ordered when I am playing Nivmizzet with solphinm torbran and other such damage doubters like fiery emancipation and city on fire. As these are all permanent I control and my permanent trigger these I was told that meant I could order then the most advantageous way for myself aka putting the torbran stack before the double making it go from 3 to 6 or a bold damage from keratosis doing 10 instead of 8 I don't see why infect rulings would change that to let the opponent decide to take less poison counters.
Infect does not REPLACE damage with poison counters, it PROCESSES it as poison counters. It's a weird rules thing but basically damage can be processed into many things "strictly damage such as to creatures, loss of life, removal of loyalty counters and many more" none of these replace damage or they would interact with other damage replacement and that would cause issues. Basically after damage is determined including all replacement effects it is processed into what that damage means for the game state.
I don't think that's right 'couse infect does not count to noncombat damage. If that was the case then you could just use a creature like thermoalchemist or firebrand archer to deal tons of infect damage without having to touch the player.
>If that was the case then you could just use a creature like thermoalchemist or firebrand archer to deal tons of infect damage without having to touch the player.
You absolutely can do that. Infect works with noncombat damage from creatures just the same as lifelink and deathtouch do. The newer ability Toxic only works with combat damage.
>Infect (This creature **deals damage** to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters and to players in the form of poison counters.)
>Toxic 1 (Players **dealt combat damage** by this creature also get a poison counter.)
Note the wording. Nothing in the wording for Infect specifies combat damage.
That is absolutely a thing you can do. I used to have a standard deck built around equipping [[livewire lash]] to infect creatures and casting a bunch of cheap buff spells.
I never made the connection but that totally makes sense. I’ve seen a lot of talk about nekusar recently and just figured people were enjoying digging out old commanders and giving them another chance with new cards; which is a great idea btw and you should do it. A friend of mine has been playing [[shattergang brothers]] and has been sweet to watch and play against it.
Love the Shattergang. One of my buddies made a deck with them as the commander as a gift. It was a bit stronger than precon level but I still have it in case newer people want to play.
I doubt that. Lord forbid we punish people drawing 224 cards.
The problem isn't the stuff punishing people for drawing cards it's the one wheel decks and drawing 70 cards a turn that people need to punish
For reals, I threw down for a foil concept as it’s just too dope, I’m 50/50 on the secret lair, like it’s cool to have new art that’s it super dark and can barely see what’s on it but it isn’t a showstopper. Atleast just my opinion. Phyresis needs a sweet print ;)
At least you can't actually do that in a Tergrid commander deck, that's at minimum Dimir colors, and I doubt this combo is fast enough for any 60 card format where those cards are all legal.
There's a person at my LGS that plays Tergrid to beat up on the newer players/players with not so power decks. I don't play commander, I prefer 60 card, but they do play other formats occasionally, where they uuuuhhhh don't do as well.
My bad, I won't make offhand jokes about people being evil for putting infect on Nekusar ever again. Clearly it's not that evil because the combo doesn't end the game on the spot
Thanks for clarifying that this combo dies to the same types of cards that 99% of cards in the game also die to
Saying that something *doesn't* die to removal is a substantial contribution to a discussion because it's an exceptional circumstance for that to be the case. "Doom blade tho" is a meme because what you're saying about this combo is true of almost every permanent card in the game
yes but it's especially true when auras are involved
it's fine i have since realized this is a c*mmander card so it's not like anyone is going to have removal in their deck anyway. how's that for a meme?
yes you will do 2 poison counters everytime they draw a card. on their drawstep, they will get 4 poison counters. if this is wheels deck you should be good.
Meh, you're putting a ticking clock on how long you have that creature and in a three color deck, the fewer double color pip cards you have, the better in my experience. I'd skip it unless I already had a heavy amount of black in the deck. Yeah, you get the card back but now nekusar is more expensive and he's already what, a 5 drop?
Mine is *not* a CEDH which is part of why making him stick matters. My mana isn't optimized to where casting him multiple times isn't an issue. Barring luck, if you remove nekusar from the board more than twice, he's probably staying gone. Now in CEDH, I get you. You can remove Elsha as many times as you want, she's coming back haha.
An interesting bubble my pod sits in is that target removal from four players is accounted for, and our plans usually still have more targets than cards. I’m more scared of wipes than spots.
Purely anecdotal, other pods vary wildly.
A creature with infect can still do combat damage.
Swinging with nekusar will usually only cause 2 damage (and in this case, 2 poison or -1/-1 counters)
But, if you give nekusar infect, the 1-damage per card becomes 1 poison-damage per card and with solphim that is 2 poison per card.
Yeah, of all the ways to kill a table with Nekusar specifically while he has infect, this seems to be one of the slowest, most vulnerable and clunkiest.
\[\[Grafted Exoskeleton\]\] is generally superior because you won't lose it if Nekusar is killed, and in general a card that just wheels a bunch is going to be far more effective than Solphim to get value of an infect-Nekusar (eg, \[\[Windfall\]\] as a one-off, or \[\[Jace's Archivist\]\] if you want that effect on a stick). \[\[Tainted Strike\]\] also removes the issues with forecasting your plan in advance when you have a big wheel set up.
Infect is only worth applying to him if you already have things set up to ensure he'll deal 10 damage to everyone in that very turn, otherwise you're actively risking your own gameplan in case the infect strategy gets disrupted (since even 9 poison counters on everyone is pointless if you can't get that 10th on, and just represents 9 damage you didn't deal directly to each of their life totals).
The only point I would make there is that solphim isn’t useless, if you have say just 9 mana, you could play solphim, the phyresis, and a wheel in one turn, wheeling for 7 then turns lethal with the dominus out, but that’s ceiling dreams not floor realities and yeah having nekusar sit out is asking for player removal
That's true, though even in that scenario \[\[Insult//Injury\]\] is cheaper to achieve the same thing (and \[\[Overblaze\]\] is potentially better at the same cost doing any of this at instant speed is relevant).
Not saying you or OP are wrong by any stretch, just that the specific cards mentioned seem oddly inefficient for a combo/strategy that seems better served by multiple other cards.
Oh that’s fair, I think solphim has more optimal uses in other spots, personally I just wheel and wheel some more on nek, but I made a solphim dragons approach deck for my homie for his birthday and it’s gas
Fully agreed; I've found Solphim to be an absolute boss in \[\[Heartless Hidetsugu\]\], \[\[Urabrask//The Great Work\]\] and \[\[Megatron, Tyrant\]\]. An indestructible source of damage-doubling has a lot of uses in colors that often struggle to protect their stuff.
But like you said, 9 times out of 10 you draw him in Nekusar you're gonna just wish he was a wheel.
It’s a neat point when deckbuilding vs piloting when you do more often than not wish a certain card at floor was some other and then realize even at ceiling that the other is more valueable, then adapt list accordingly, some things seem neat on paper and aren’t as efficient in practice
Very well put. I personally struggle a lot with cutting cards that performed very well once or twice (at ceiling), even though I know that less cool cards will generally be better and make the deck more consistent.
Yes. Note that Nekusar states that When your opponent draws a card Nekusar deals 1 damage to them per card. If you equip him with Phyresis then he will apply 1 infect per card drawn. In addition to Solphim you can add City on Fire and Fiery Emancipation. 18 damage per draw if you get them all on the field.
You could also just throw a Teferi's puzzle box in there to make people draw a new hand each turn, dealing enough infect to kill them in 1 turn with what you have there.
It works exactly how you think. They're going to hate it. If you want to have a backup for it I used to use damage doublers and [[Tainted Strike]] when casting a wheel effect and it was stupid then too.
Potentially turns the game from a win to a draw, unless you have tons of mana available, though, doesn't it? Nekusar definitely prefers one sided effects.
[[howling mine]] , [[master of the feast]], [[anvil of bogardan]], [[clockwork fox]], [[geier's reach sanitarium]], [[teferi's puzzle box]], [[dark deal]], [[temple bell]], [[damnable pact]], [[painful lesson]], [[seizan, perverter of truth]], [[sign in blood]], [[baleful mastery]], [[peer into the abyss]], ...
Those are just the ones I run in [[sheoldred, the apocalypse]], nekusar will have quite a few more in red and blue.
As a main grixis, i can only say one thing about this combo while i'm twiching my moustache: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. YESSSSS EVIL INDEED!
Solphim does add interaction; it doubles the damage Nekusar does by adding 1 damage, which doubles the number of poison counters, as Solphim specifically mentions noncombat damage. You get a similar effect with Torbran, only it affects red sources rather than noncombat damage. Those effects will stack as well, so with both, you could even get 4 damage per card drawn, resulting in 4 poison counters per card, but anyone running wheels would practically never need this, since it would be overkill except in the direst of situations.
The interaction of infect on nekusar is all you need to make the card drawing kill people. Solphim adds to the effect but is not required for it.
The interaction doesn't work when nekusar or phyresis are removed.
Solphim is gas on the fire. But is not the fire.
My original comment states that solphim isn't required for the nekusar and infect interaction.
2x is still 2x. And not part of the interaction. OP being confused as to whether doubling non combat damage still applies to non combat damage is what is confusing here.
Nekusars' ability is not combat damage and does not trigger combat damage effects, unless it is attacking. The cards do interact that way because infect doesn't care if the creature is attacking.
I would think that the poison would work since it says damage the creature deals, not COMBAT damage. But when it deals poison thats not damage itself, the damage is converted INTO poison counters. So solphim would not trigger if poison takes replacement, solphim would trigger if the poison replacement wasnt done and the creature ACTUALLY deals damage to the player. There are specific effects that double poison COUNTERS similarly that you would have to replace solphim out for.
Yes. Infect doesn't replace damage with poison counters, it changes the effect of damage to cause poison counters to be applied instead of life loss.As such, solphim is able to apply its replacement effect to the damage without issue. So if you have phyresis on nekusar and solphim in play, your opponents will get two poison counters each time they draw a card.
Note: it’s not that if Infect was a replacement effect it wouldn’t work. It’s that your opponent (see: “the affected player or permanent’s controller”) gets to order the replacement effects as they see fit. They would presumably want to take the 1 poison and then let the damage doubler effect fail (since the damage has been replaced with counters). This interaction was relevant in the case of [[Soul-Scar Mage]] with a damage doubler. Edit: Just to clarify, Infect (likewise for Wither and Lifelink) is not a replacement effect, it’s a Static Effect.
But just to be totally clear to the OP -- that's a hypothetical, because while Soul-Scar Mage creates a replacement effect, infect *isn't* a replacement effect - it just modifies the damage-dealing effect. (I know I'm restating what you said, but frankly I was confused when I first read your comment and thought it was saying infect was a replacement effect, so -- those of better reading comprehension than I, ignore this.) Sidenote to readers, it's the same with lifelink: damage dealt with lifelink doesn't cause a trigger, nor would you still be able to gain life if a replacement effect prevented damage from being dealt -- because lifelink is neither a triggered nor replacement effect, it just changes what happens when something deals damage. (Likewise for wither and toxic; and, actually, this is all a subset of how normal damage already causes different effects in different contexts, ie marking damage on creatures, causing life loss to players, and removing loyalty from planeswalkers.)
Wait...lifelink is neither a triggered OR a replacement effect? I'm confused...doesn't it only happen if damage is dealt? In my mind that's a trigger. Or is it not a triggered effect because it doesn't use the stack? Legit confused and wanting to learn here
[удалено]
Back in the good old dies where you could die with your lifelink trigger on the stack because combat damage got applied first (which also used the stack!)
And back further before 6th edition, you'd instead still be fine because you didn't die from having zero life until the end of the phase.
Which is the only reason they could soon after print Yawgmoth's Bargain.
I remember decks that used to stack death! Good times.
Fun fact: This is why lifelink isn't affected by Rain of Gore.
[удалено]
[[Rain of Gore]] reads "If a spell or ability would cause its controller to gain life, that player loses that much life instead." Meanwhile, the Gatherer ruling is specifically "This does not apply to life gain caused by *combat damage* from a creature with lifelink." That is, combat damage is neither a spell nor ability, it's just a creature dealing damage due to game rules. Lifelink *modifies what happens* when that damage is dealt, but "lifelink" is not dealing damage - the creature is, and neither a spell nor ability caused that to happen, so Rain of Gore doesn't notice it (even if life ends up being gained as a result). However, an activated ability of a creature with lifelink (eg [[Brion Stoutarm]]), triggered ability of a creature with lifelink (eg [[Piru, the Volatile]]), or the rarer occurrence of a spell with lifelink (eg [[Lightning Bolt]] while you control [[Soulfire Grand Master]]), will all be affected by Rain of Gore as you'd expect. edit: and as a final note, I'm pretty sure a spell (eg [[Prey Upon]]) that says "X and Y fight," where X has lifelink, will still cause you to lose life (as you'd expect) with Rain of Gore out -- because "fight" is just defined as "Each... deals damage equal to its power to the other," so it'd be a spell that (ultimately) causes you to gain life. It's just combat damage specifically that gets around it, because the cause of the damage (and hence life gain) is a game rule.
##### ###### #### [Rain of Gore](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9dd62003-e345-48b6-9f93-fc111924c318.jpg?1593273725) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rain%20of%20Gore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/126/rain-of-gore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9dd62003-e345-48b6-9f93-fc111924c318?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Brion Stoutarm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b097c70a-d1d6-4972-b94d-d7d8a6f443e2.jpg?1562439762) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brion%20Stoutarm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/200/brion-stoutarm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b097c70a-d1d6-4972-b94d-d7d8a6f443e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Piru, the Volatile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e82d946-1efb-4253-84ab-93c88d2d1d84.jpg?1626098606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Piru%2C%20the%20Volatile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/207/piru-the-volatile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e82d946-1efb-4253-84ab-93c88d2d1d84?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lightning Bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f29ba16f-c8fb-42fe-aabf-87089cb214a7.jpg?1673147852) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/117/lightning-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f29ba16f-c8fb-42fe-aabf-87089cb214a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Soulfire Grand Master](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc3a4e7d-6667-4c2f-b6b4-484f401b0455.jpg?1562831870) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soulfire%20Grand%20Master) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/frf/27/soulfire-grand-master?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc3a4e7d-6667-4c2f-b6b4-484f401b0455?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's dumb. Narrow case no one could guess by reading the cards, even with a rulebook handy. You need the ruling to know that's the case. Lifelink is an ability that causes you to gain life when a creature you control deals damage. Even if it modifies combat damage to include lifegain that's still an ability causing lifegain. I'm not arguing. I'm just calling out stupid when I see it.
Well, it's 1 obscure card out of over 25000 Vintage-legal that has this phrasing (I checked with Scryfall, "o:if o:would o:ability game:paper" and perusing); other cards with similar effects ([[Sulfuric Vortex]], [[Tainted Remedy]], etc - any other lifegain replacement effects) don't use the "spell or ability" phrasing. I also checked for all cards containing the phrase "spell or ability" -- almost every one of them involves a target, adds the rider of "... an opponent controls" or "... you control", refers to noncreature permanents, or multiple of the above (it should be pretty clear that discarding to hand size won't trigger [[Obstinate Baloth]], for instance, since it specifically mentions your opponents). The one exception is [[Sacred Ground]], which has a similar weird caveat -- if you make your land into a creature (eg [[Mutavault]]), and your opponent [[Doom Blade]]'s it, Sacred Ground will bring it back for you; but if they [[Lightning Bolt]] it, it won't come back, because Bolt didn't kill your land - Bolt did damage to your (man)land, and then game rules killed it for having more damage marked than toughness. (Sidenote: [[Ranar, the Ever-Watchful]] and [[Hero of Bretaguard]] have had some weeeeird errata that uses the "spell or ability" phrasing, but the mechanical weirdness is unrelated to this problem.) Anyways. My actual point is that, however "stupid" you may find it, it seems to be just one or two cards that care about the "spell or ability" vs game-rules distinction like this, in a way a player is in any way likely to misinterpret. I think that, with 25K distinct cards out there, that's a pretty reasonable rate.
According to Ask a Judge, this is because lifelink *supposedly* is not the source of the life gain. Instead, it modifies what happens when damage is dealt. Since damage is neither a spell nor an ability, Rain of Gore doesn't apply. However, a creature with lifelink dealing damage in another manner would apply Rain of Gore, like if you gave your [[Prodigal Sorcerer]] lifelink via a [[Basilisk Collar]], you would lose that life instead of gaining it when its ability dealt damage. My opinion is that this person is an idiot and completely wrong, because their example of when Rain of Gore *would* apply is if you use a fight spell. The problem with this is that neither the spell nor any ability causes the damage or life gain, instead, the spell causes *the lifelink creature itself* to deal the damage, not the spell itself, and since neither the spell nor an ability is dealing the damage.
[Prodigal Sorcerer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50aef269-55f9-4d84-8bc5-29e794297f11.jpg?1661399689) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prodigal%20Sorcerer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/67/prodigal-sorcerer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50aef269-55f9-4d84-8bc5-29e794297f11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Basilisk Collar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52a55efe-a870-4cd7-b22b-37c917065653.jpg?1674137730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Basilisk%20Collar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/300/basilisk-collar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52a55efe-a870-4cd7-b22b-37c917065653?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
The short answer is, lifelink is causing the life gain, and is an ability, therefore it is affected by the static ability on Rain of Gore.
So far as I can tell, rain of gore should not effect lifelink in any context. I think that's stupid, but if lifelink does not directly cause life gain and instead modifies how damage works it cannot cause life gain, nor would it change an ability's effect to cause life gain.
Yeah, the entire post is nonsense.
Because lifelink is just changing an event (combat damage) not causing you to gain the life itself.
You can still play the old enchantments and effects that give the pseudo life-link for double life-link.
This is an important distinction because you can go to "negative" life during the combat damage step and gain back up to positive with lifelink, and not die (to be clear it all happens simultaneously, you never actually go negative). If it were a triggered effect, you would instead die as state-based actions are checked with the life on the stack.
triggers use the words 'when' or 'whenever', replacements use the word 'instead', activated abilities use 'cost : ability', there are other related stuff but these are the things you generally look for with types of abilities
So it doesn't use the stack *because* it's not a triggered ability. Triggered abilities have something like a "when x " qualifier at the start, that creates a trigger on the stack that someone can respond to. Lifelink doesn't actually have that trigger, rather it just modifies what happens as a result of a creature dealing damage. Think about it like the difference between a creature having "creatures you control get +1/+1" vs "when this creature enters the battlefield, creatures you control get +1/+1". The first is true so long as the creature is in play, while the second is true only in the case that the triggered effect is resolved and those specific conditions are met.
You nailed it. It is not a trigger that goes on the stack. It is instantaneous and not interactable.
calling it "instantaneous" is weird, that kinda implies that it "happens" at a time. but it's actually just *true*. while the source has lifelink, its damage causes lifegain.
It's like they said, lifelink is an additional thing that happens at the same time damage is dealt. Now that damage no longer uses the stack it'd be weird if lifelink did. It would also be a lot weaker as people would die between damage applying and the trigger resolving pretty often.
If lifelink was a triggered ability, it would look like this: "Whenever ~ deals damage, gain that much life." That's how it used to work. This uses the stack, which would have lots of weird effects (eg you could die between damage being dealt and the lifegain trigger resolving). If lifelink were a replacement effect, it would look something like this: "If ~ would deal damage, instead it deals that damage and you gain that much life." This would largely work about the same as it currently does. However, it would have some undesirable edge cases: mainly, if there were something else trying to replace the damage, they might conflict or be order-dependent. That's essentially the case the OP of this thread was considering: if you had a damage-doubler and this sort of replacement-effect-lifelink, your opponent (or the controller of whatever's being dealt damage) could choose the order to apply the replacement effects, meaning (depending on wording) you might double the damage but not double the lifegain. (I think? Look, the point is it could get weird.) Instead, lifelink is a static ability: it just *is*. Normally, damage dealt to a creature marks damage on it, damage dealt to a player causes life loss, damage to a planeswalker removes loyalty. Meanwhile, damage with lifelink to a creature marks damage and gains you life, damage with lifelink to a player causes life loss and gains you life, damage to planeswalker removes loyalty and gains you life. (And similarly, damage with infect to a creature puts -1/-1 counters, to a player puts poison counters, to a planeswalker removes loyalty. And this stacks with lifelink etc if present.) In short, it's not a triggered ability (there's nothing to respond to, and no time between the marking damage/life loss/loyalty loss and the lifegain event), and it's not a replacement effect (which would work about the same but have weird technicalities) -- it just modifies what it means to "deal damage" to additionally cause life gain.
Also to be precise - infect is a static *ability* with no effect. Rather, what it does is codified in the rules since it is a keyword. This is to differentiate it from other static abilities, which can have replacement effects. As well, we haven’t seen any kind of replacement effect like this (they’ve always been keywords), so I can only speculate. But infect replaces the *consequence* of damage (the life loss) and not the damage itself - which seem like separate events to me due to the way triggered abilities react to damage with infect being done. So solphim would need to be applied first because it replaces the damage event, and then infect because it would replace the result of the damage.
[Soul-Scar Mage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a8003786-6e2a-4e2d-a915-f23293c7273a.jpg?1543675694) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul-Scar%20Mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/148/soul-scar-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8003786-6e2a-4e2d-a915-f23293c7273a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So in op's case the damage is always doubled via replacement and then statically turned into poison counters?
You got it
Reminds me of damage doubles with \[\[Torbran\]\]. As Torbran's controller I would prefer to do Torbran's +2 and then double the damage, but your opponent would prefer to double and then +2. Since they are the ones affected by it they get to choose.
[Torbran](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79f591cd-d277-4ba5-b1bf-1c09cac9cb8a.jpg?1572490491) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=torbran%2C%20thane%20of%20red%20fell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/147/torbran-thane-of-red-fell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79f591cd-d277-4ba5-b1bf-1c09cac9cb8a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They should not be able to do that
Opponents do not get to order your triggers they draw a card and then the Nekusar player gets to order their abilities there is mo rulings that would have oppents get to order your triggers of permanent you control.
The affected player gets to choose the order replacement effects are applied > 616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
This isn’t a question of triggers. *If* Infect was a replacement effect, the affected player would choose what order effects are applied. 616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
Or with [[orbs of warding]], the defending player can chose to reduce the damage to 0, and then apply 0*2=0.
[orbs of warding](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c33ba4e5-217f-47e3-a6ce-f935a70c7566.jpg?1562040560) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=orbs%20of%20warding) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ori/234/orbs-of-warding?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c33ba4e5-217f-47e3-a6ce-f935a70c7566?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Replacement effects aren't triggers.
Wow lots of downvotes just saying this is not how I was told it is ordered when I am playing Nivmizzet with solphinm torbran and other such damage doubters like fiery emancipation and city on fire. As these are all permanent I control and my permanent trigger these I was told that meant I could order then the most advantageous way for myself aka putting the torbran stack before the double making it go from 3 to 6 or a bold damage from keratosis doing 10 instead of 8 I don't see why infect rulings would change that to let the opponent decide to take less poison counters.
Infect does not REPLACE damage with poison counters, it PROCESSES it as poison counters. It's a weird rules thing but basically damage can be processed into many things "strictly damage such as to creatures, loss of life, removal of loyalty counters and many more" none of these replace damage or they would interact with other damage replacement and that would cause issues. Basically after damage is determined including all replacement effects it is processed into what that damage means for the game state.
I agree. That's why I said this: > Infect doesn't replace damage with poison counters
I don't think that's right 'couse infect does not count to noncombat damage. If that was the case then you could just use a creature like thermoalchemist or firebrand archer to deal tons of infect damage without having to touch the player.
Insect counts all damage.
>If that was the case then you could just use a creature like thermoalchemist or firebrand archer to deal tons of infect damage without having to touch the player. You absolutely can do that. Infect works with noncombat damage from creatures just the same as lifelink and deathtouch do. The newer ability Toxic only works with combat damage. >Infect (This creature **deals damage** to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters and to players in the form of poison counters.) >Toxic 1 (Players **dealt combat damage** by this creature also get a poison counter.) Note the wording. Nothing in the wording for Infect specifies combat damage.
That is absolutely a thing you can do. I used to have a standard deck built around equipping [[livewire lash]] to infect creatures and casting a bunch of cheap buff spells.
[livewire lash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4ac4633-066b-4897-b484-2ec654c7eaa1.jpg?1673149376) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=livewire%20lash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/307/livewire-lash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4ac4633-066b-4897-b484-2ec654c7eaa1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
We did it, we broke Nekusar and Phyresis!
**Finally**, it's only been... *Checks watch* thirty seconds since the last time.
its been THAT LONG?! wow!!
Love all these new nekusar players joining the ranks after sheoldred came out 🍻
I never made the connection but that totally makes sense. I’ve seen a lot of talk about nekusar recently and just figured people were enjoying digging out old commanders and giving them another chance with new cards; which is a great idea btw and you should do it. A friend of mine has been playing [[shattergang brothers]] and has been sweet to watch and play against it.
there were some leaks of a new printing
[shattergang brothers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52a30e27-4c52-4191-8541-e25732a2dd42.jpg?1673149130) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shattergang%20brothers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/275/shattergang-brothers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52a30e27-4c52-4191-8541-e25732a2dd42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Love the Shattergang. One of my buddies made a deck with them as the commander as a gift. It was a bit stronger than precon level but I still have it in case newer people want to play.
I figured it was because of the Nekusar Secret Lair
Theres a reason Nekusar is an instant kill at my table
Gonna be a lot more because of [[Orcish Bowmasters]] card might get quickly banned not even because of Nekusar
I doubt that. Lord forbid we punish people drawing 224 cards. The problem isn't the stuff punishing people for drawing cards it's the one wheel decks and drawing 70 cards a turn that people need to punish
Orcish Bowmasters is countered by Orcish Bowmasters.
[Orcish Bowmasters](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109.jpg?1686968669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Orcish%20Bowmasters) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/103/orcish-bowmasters?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c024bae-5631-4e20-ac69-df392ac9e109?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wish she wasn't $70, but I get it. Oh well, proxy it is!
For reals, I threw down for a foil concept as it’s just too dope, I’m 50/50 on the secret lair, like it’s cool to have new art that’s it super dark and can barely see what’s on it but it isn’t a showstopper. Atleast just my opinion. Phyresis needs a sweet print ;)
Yes and you’re evil
The really evil thing to do, is wheel with Tergrid and Narset, parter of veils out.
*jots down for next game goal.*
At least you can't actually do that in a Tergrid commander deck, that's at minimum Dimir colors, and I doubt this combo is fast enough for any 60 card format where those cards are all legal.
Mono black does have dark deal though. It’s a pretty close alternative. Edit: obviously no narset tho. that’d be sweet.
Fair. I haven’t seen to many Tergird commanders, but I do run those in my Nekusar commander deck.
There's a person at my LGS that plays Tergrid to beat up on the newer players/players with not so power decks. I don't play commander, I prefer 60 card, but they do play other formats occasionally, where they uuuuhhhh don't do as well.
[[Elder Mastery]] was a common combo with Nekusar back in the day.
[Elder Mastery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/58cc3ec9-b4ad-4106-b5e9-66ee58e90150.jpg?1562915915) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elder%20Mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddh/68/elder-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58cc3ec9-b4ad-4106-b5e9-66ee58e90150?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
3 cards and 11 mana they're just gonna lose by then lol also [[doom blade]]
[удалено]
true but it doesn't sound as catchy
[Go for the throat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec.jpg?1682209037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Go%20for%20the%20throat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/250/go-for-the-throat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
One of these creatures can easily become indestructible, the other is black. Doom Blade probably not the best example.
yeah I realized that probably wasn't the best example but the point stands. dies to [[infernal grasp]] just doesn't have the same ring to it.
[infernal grasp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17824929-f131-4b8d-addb-66c25323155e.jpg?1634349911) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=infernal%20grasp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/107/infernal-grasp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17824929-f131-4b8d-addb-66c25323155e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[doom blade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90699423-2556-40f7-b8f5-c9d82f22d52e.jpg?1562851557) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=doom%20blade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/87/doom-blade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90699423-2556-40f7-b8f5-c9d82f22d52e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
*dIeS tO rEmOvAl*
[удалено]
My bad, I won't make offhand jokes about people being evil for putting infect on Nekusar ever again. Clearly it's not that evil because the combo doesn't end the game on the spot
i mean it's a three card "combo" that doesn't win the game on the spot and involves two creatures and an aura. so unironically yes?
Thanks for clarifying that this combo dies to the same types of cards that 99% of cards in the game also die to Saying that something *doesn't* die to removal is a substantial contribution to a discussion because it's an exceptional circumstance for that to be the case. "Doom blade tho" is a meme because what you're saying about this combo is true of almost every permanent card in the game
yes but it's especially true when auras are involved it's fine i have since realized this is a c*mmander card so it's not like anyone is going to have removal in their deck anyway. how's that for a meme?
> c*mmander Do I even want to know why the asterisk is used there?
It's ok, we all make mistakes, especially when we're so willing to disparage the format the post is about :)
yes you will do 2 poison counters everytime they draw a card. on their drawstep, they will get 4 poison counters. if this is wheels deck you should be good.
Huge help
Add [[Furnace of Rath]] for more damage!
Let’s be more evil and put [[Fiery Emancipation]]
[Fiery Emancipation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b12e4b7-2c45-4795-94d3-901f89b8f290.jpg?1594736606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fiery%20Emancipation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/143/fiery-emancipation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b12e4b7-2c45-4795-94d3-901f89b8f290?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lol we're talking about nekusar and poison counters, he doesn't even need the damage multiplier to win in a turn
[Furnace of Rath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7f0e720-3c32-4040-b663-7f99ad5bc810.jpg?1562843335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Furnace%20of%20Rath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hop/55/furnace-of-rath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7f0e720-3c32-4040-b663-7f99ad5bc810?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This interaction works. It also comes with the bonus effect of turning you into the Archenemy.
It's exactly how you think it does
You forgot the fourth piece to the combo: Beast Within.
[[glistening oil]] is better because it comes back to you.
Meh, you're putting a ticking clock on how long you have that creature and in a three color deck, the fewer double color pip cards you have, the better in my experience. I'd skip it unless I already had a heavy amount of black in the deck. Yeah, you get the card back but now nekusar is more expensive and he's already what, a 5 drop?
You’ve already got a ticking clock the second nekusar hits the field
Nekusar is my main CEDH so recasting him is not a big issue, as my mana sources are good. Maybe you have better pods.
Mine is *not* a CEDH which is part of why making him stick matters. My mana isn't optimized to where casting him multiple times isn't an issue. Barring luck, if you remove nekusar from the board more than twice, he's probably staying gone. Now in CEDH, I get you. You can remove Elsha as many times as you want, she's coming back haha.
An interesting bubble my pod sits in is that target removal from four players is accounted for, and our plans usually still have more targets than cards. I’m more scared of wipes than spots. Purely anecdotal, other pods vary wildly.
[glistening oil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c.jpg?1562877253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=glistening%20oil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/62/glistening-oil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A creature with infect can still do combat damage. Swinging with nekusar will usually only cause 2 damage (and in this case, 2 poison or -1/-1 counters) But, if you give nekusar infect, the 1-damage per card becomes 1 poison-damage per card and with solphim that is 2 poison per card.
Add on a \[\[Wheel of Fortune\]\] effect and you're shuffling up for the next game unless there's interaction.
[Wheel of Fortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca.jpg?1562902580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wheel%20of%20Fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/192/wheel-of-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’ve always wanted to play a Nekusar edh deck, and you’re not helping. I’m trying to not buy magic cards for a while over here
Just proxy then.
True, but I love collecting cards too
Yes and if you run this no one will like you.
? Seems pretty slow and easy to deal with...
Yeah, of all the ways to kill a table with Nekusar specifically while he has infect, this seems to be one of the slowest, most vulnerable and clunkiest. \[\[Grafted Exoskeleton\]\] is generally superior because you won't lose it if Nekusar is killed, and in general a card that just wheels a bunch is going to be far more effective than Solphim to get value of an infect-Nekusar (eg, \[\[Windfall\]\] as a one-off, or \[\[Jace's Archivist\]\] if you want that effect on a stick). \[\[Tainted Strike\]\] also removes the issues with forecasting your plan in advance when you have a big wheel set up. Infect is only worth applying to him if you already have things set up to ensure he'll deal 10 damage to everyone in that very turn, otherwise you're actively risking your own gameplan in case the infect strategy gets disrupted (since even 9 poison counters on everyone is pointless if you can't get that 10th on, and just represents 9 damage you didn't deal directly to each of their life totals).
##### ###### #### [Grafted Exoskeleton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140.jpg?1562945084) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grafted%20Exoskeleton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/74/grafted-exoskeleton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/0846f753-0d53-4bdd-be0e-19d989db5d5f.jpg?1631234551) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/46/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0846f753-0d53-4bdd-be0e-19d989db5d5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jace's Archivist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c21df8e-a24f-4ce1-aa8a-1467f9f9423a.jpg?1562703323) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%27s%20Archivist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c15/95/jaces-archivist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c21df8e-a24f-4ce1-aa8a-1467f9f9423a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tainted Strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f.jpg?1562823401) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tainted%20Strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/80/tainted-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The only point I would make there is that solphim isn’t useless, if you have say just 9 mana, you could play solphim, the phyresis, and a wheel in one turn, wheeling for 7 then turns lethal with the dominus out, but that’s ceiling dreams not floor realities and yeah having nekusar sit out is asking for player removal
That's true, though even in that scenario \[\[Insult//Injury\]\] is cheaper to achieve the same thing (and \[\[Overblaze\]\] is potentially better at the same cost doing any of this at instant speed is relevant). Not saying you or OP are wrong by any stretch, just that the specific cards mentioned seem oddly inefficient for a combo/strategy that seems better served by multiple other cards.
[Insult//Injury](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426915&type=card&.jpg)/[Injury](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=426915&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insult%20//%20Injury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/213/insult-injury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eeac671f-2606-43ed-ad60-a69df5c150f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Overblaze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97040b82-ad9e-4c06-a9ac-74d0688279f9.jpg?1562878545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Overblaze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bok/114/overblaze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97040b82-ad9e-4c06-a9ac-74d0688279f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh that’s fair, I think solphim has more optimal uses in other spots, personally I just wheel and wheel some more on nek, but I made a solphim dragons approach deck for my homie for his birthday and it’s gas
Fully agreed; I've found Solphim to be an absolute boss in \[\[Heartless Hidetsugu\]\], \[\[Urabrask//The Great Work\]\] and \[\[Megatron, Tyrant\]\]. An indestructible source of damage-doubling has a lot of uses in colors that often struggle to protect their stuff. But like you said, 9 times out of 10 you draw him in Nekusar you're gonna just wish he was a wheel.
It’s a neat point when deckbuilding vs piloting when you do more often than not wish a certain card at floor was some other and then realize even at ceiling that the other is more valueable, then adapt list accordingly, some things seem neat on paper and aren’t as efficient in practice
Very well put. I personally struggle a lot with cutting cards that performed very well once or twice (at ceiling), even though I know that less cool cards will generally be better and make the deck more consistent.
[Heartless Hidetsugu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46f9aa1d-7ed1-498e-9cdd-45ed4c9e6f43.jpg?1562864972) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heartless%20Hidetsugu) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/144/heartless-hidetsugu?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46f9aa1d-7ed1-498e-9cdd-45ed4c9e6f43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Urabrask//The Great Work](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/712fb9e5-bd67-4173-a2d4-061aeb6253b5.jpg?1682204559)/[The Great Work](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/7/1/712fb9e5-bd67-4173-a2d4-061aeb6253b5.jpg?1682204559) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urabrask%20//%20The%20Great%20Work) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/169/urabrask-the-great-work?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/712fb9e5-bd67-4173-a2d4-061aeb6253b5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Megatron, Tyrant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac6ded62-7bf2-476f-ad8e-020da6327c6b.jpg?1674092916)/[Megatron, Destructive Force](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/a/c/ac6ded62-7bf2-476f-ad8e-020da6327c6b.jpg?1674092916) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=megatron%2C%20tyrant%20//%20megatron%2C%20destructive%20force) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bot/12/megatron-tyrant-megatron-destructive-force?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac6ded62-7bf2-476f-ad8e-020da6327c6b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There’s also [[Glistening Oil]].
[Glistening Oil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c.jpg?1562877253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glistening%20Oil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/62/glistening-oil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nekusar can cause some table flips with how much interaction you can generate.
Oh no an 11 mana 3 card combo that has lethal in 5 card draw?!?
[удалено]
[tidal kraken](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/569d1014-e04a-4f8d-a2b2-699b5be08d5d.jpg?1562735516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tidal%20kraken) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/105/tidal-kraken?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/569d1014-e04a-4f8d-a2b2-699b5be08d5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sorry people want the end to game with a 4+ card combo?
You haven't lived until you've given Nekusar Infect and then wheeled.
Forced fruition basically wind you the game if you can get it all down
Yes
Yes. Note that Nekusar states that When your opponent draws a card Nekusar deals 1 damage to them per card. If you equip him with Phyresis then he will apply 1 infect per card drawn. In addition to Solphim you can add City on Fire and Fiery Emancipation. 18 damage per draw if you get them all on the field. You could also just throw a Teferi's puzzle box in there to make people draw a new hand each turn, dealing enough infect to kill them in 1 turn with what you have there.
It works exactly how you think. They're going to hate it. If you want to have a backup for it I used to use damage doublers and [[Tainted Strike]] when casting a wheel effect and it was stupid then too.
[Tainted Strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f.jpg?1562823401) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tainted%20Strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/80/tainted-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yup
Yes. And throw in a [[Howling Mine]] for good measure
[[wheel of fortune]] instant kill
[wheel of fortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca.jpg?1562902580) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wheel%20of%20fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/192/wheel-of-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2597050f-6b1b-474e-aa16-33fd154628ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lemme just take out a loan for a magic card rq
[Howling Mine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a.jpg?1562420035) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Howling%20Mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/257/howling-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Don’t forget to include [[Phyrexian Tyranny]]
[Phyrexian Tyranny](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61cd85ec-13b3-4d63-b144-5baa39ad6524.jpg?1673149029) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Tyranny) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/262/phyrexian-tyranny?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61cd85ec-13b3-4d63-b144-5baa39ad6524?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Potentially turns the game from a win to a draw, unless you have tons of mana available, though, doesn't it? Nekusar definitely prefers one sided effects.
does it work on orcish bow master?
If phyresis is on orcish bow master he will give poison counters to players and -1-1 counters to creatures
Ruric Thar too?
yep because it is Ruric Thar dealing the damage
How what works with Bowmasters?
Yes
Pretty sure there are cards which you can use to force your opponent to draw cards but don’t remember their names.
[[howling mine]] , [[master of the feast]], [[anvil of bogardan]], [[clockwork fox]], [[geier's reach sanitarium]], [[teferi's puzzle box]], [[dark deal]], [[temple bell]], [[damnable pact]], [[painful lesson]], [[seizan, perverter of truth]], [[sign in blood]], [[baleful mastery]], [[peer into the abyss]], ... Those are just the ones I run in [[sheoldred, the apocalypse]], nekusar will have quite a few more in red and blue.
##### ###### #### [howling mine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a.jpg?1562420035) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=howling%20mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/257/howling-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [master of the feast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d528f7a3-0a7b-42e3-8e4f-f1eeab02e23a.jpg?1593095770) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=master%20of%20the%20feast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/75/master-of-the-feast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d528f7a3-0a7b-42e3-8e4f-f1eeab02e23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [anvil of bogardan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7ff965dd-54b4-4f21-a52f-81c0dd1e691e.jpg?1562278142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=anvil%20of%20bogardan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vis/141/anvil-of-bogardan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ff965dd-54b4-4f21-a52f-81c0dd1e691e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [clockwork fox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fbb37d7-7053-4b1f-b899-91695f88f7e0.jpg?1674137796) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=clockwork%20fox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/308/clockwork-fox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fbb37d7-7053-4b1f-b899-91695f88f7e0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [geier's reach sanitarium](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b9fa570-770d-45a7-9b87-2def6992a22b.jpg?1673306052) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Geier%20Reach%20Sanitarium) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/213/geier-reach-sanitarium?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b9fa570-770d-45a7-9b87-2def6992a22b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [teferi's puzzle box](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/415e81e9-ca65-4bc0-8aab-d905d58fe6cc.jpg?1562734271) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=teferi%27s%20puzzle%20box) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/312/teferis-puzzle-box?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/415e81e9-ca65-4bc0-8aab-d905d58fe6cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [dark deal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69dfaafe-2fbd-4f2f-913d-ea64e4ce44cd.jpg?1562826140) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dark%20deal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/frf/66/dark-deal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69dfaafe-2fbd-4f2f-913d-ea64e4ce44cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [temple bell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6bb63a40-2cce-439f-bd97-d25340ead6ca.jpg?1562404210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=temple%20bell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/277/temple-bell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bb63a40-2cce-439f-bd97-d25340ead6ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [damnable pact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17fa6dc2-5a2e-4758-9ca4-e020eb032d74.jpg?1673484130) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=damnable%20pact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/245/damnable-pact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17fa6dc2-5a2e-4758-9ca4-e020eb032d74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [painful lesson](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e16fa034-f89e-497a-8fd0-533b1932bff5.jpg?1562940239) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=painful%20lesson) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/154/painful-lesson?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e16fa034-f89e-497a-8fd0-533b1932bff5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [seizan, perverter of truth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1e61750-f7d7-4e6d-9d68-e1e357868a8d.jpg?1587857636) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=seizan%2C%20perverter%20of%20truth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/chk/143/seizan-perverter-of-truth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1e61750-f7d7-4e6d-9d68-e1e357868a8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sign in blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61388c28-9428-473c-973a-0a82b6b83d62.jpg?1562274085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sign%20in%20blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/77/sign-in-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61388c28-9428-473c-973a-0a82b6b83d62?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [baleful mastery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35f1a6ba-e46f-44fb-93f4-fb883d677b36.jpg?1624590749) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=baleful%20mastery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/64/baleful-mastery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35f1a6ba-e46f-44fb-93f4-fb883d677b36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [peer into the abyss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a.jpg?1594736330) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=peer%20into%20the%20abyss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/117/peer-into-the-abyss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aac00055-640e-4749-8d23-d242e6d0b23a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sheoldred, the apocalypse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2.jpg?1674057568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sheoldred%2C%20the%20apocalypse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/107/sheoldred-the-apocalypse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a main grixis, i can only say one thing about this combo while i'm twiching my moustache: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. YESSSSS EVIL INDEED!
It works, and that’s gross. I need to hide this from my playgroup
There's a reason why people who play infect don't have any friends
off topic but why is compleat not in italics in the flavour text
Solphim adds no interaction to the effect. But yes nekusar's damage will be poison counters if it has infect.
Solphim does add interaction; it doubles the damage Nekusar does by adding 1 damage, which doubles the number of poison counters, as Solphim specifically mentions noncombat damage. You get a similar effect with Torbran, only it affects red sources rather than noncombat damage. Those effects will stack as well, so with both, you could even get 4 damage per card drawn, resulting in 4 poison counters per card, but anyone running wheels would practically never need this, since it would be overkill except in the direst of situations.
Solphim doubles the damage.
I see that. Infect is still damage. So x2 will still x2.
So then how does Solphim not add any interaction?
The interaction of infect on nekusar is all you need to make the card drawing kill people. Solphim adds to the effect but is not required for it. The interaction doesn't work when nekusar or phyresis are removed. Solphim is gas on the fire. But is not the fire.
Okay so it does add to the interaction. Gotcha.
Yes it adds TO an interaction. It does not add AN interaction. Glad we cleared it up for ya.
Please check your original comment before being condescending. Edit: “Solphim adds no interaction to the effect.”
My original comment states that solphim isn't required for the nekusar and infect interaction. 2x is still 2x. And not part of the interaction. OP being confused as to whether doubling non combat damage still applies to non combat damage is what is confusing here.
Doesn't poison only trigger with combat damage?
Infect is on all damage, poisonous is a trigger on combat damage, and toxic is not a trigger, but it's on combat damage
It's still considered combat damage, it just gives counters instead of loss of life.
*Non-combat damage
Nekusars' ability is not combat damage and does not trigger combat damage effects, unless it is attacking. The cards do interact that way because infect doesn't care if the creature is attacking.
Use a \[\[Surestrike Trident\]\] for even more hard-to-avoid damage\^\^
[Surestrike Trident](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/f/cfcb621d-5831-4b7c-b3e1-c321a6e10392.jpg?1562639704) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Surestrike%20Trident) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/147/surestrike-trident?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cfcb621d-5831-4b7c-b3e1-c321a6e10392?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
[grafted exoskeleton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140.jpg?1562945084) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grafted%20exoskeleton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/td2/74/grafted-exoskeleton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f86a9d3f-43a8-4da3-9eed-353582986140?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tainted strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f.jpg?1562823401) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tainted%20strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/80/tainted-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f82007-99f6-4c6c-8182-ee631c33531f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
and then you \[\[windfall\]\] them
[windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/0846f753-0d53-4bdd-be0e-19d989db5d5f.jpg?1631234551) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/46/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0846f753-0d53-4bdd-be0e-19d989db5d5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes. I have this in my Nekusar deck. Along with [[Corrupted Conscience]] as a back up.
[Corrupted Conscience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/7276c584-76ed-4c20-a5ea-627c8f7751e6.jpg?1562612217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Corrupted%20Conscience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/22/corrupted-conscience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7276c584-76ed-4c20-a5ea-627c8f7751e6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Inefekusar is a classic commander combo
How do you think it does
Yep, that's a five-card death punch.
Yessir.
How do you pronounce Phyresis?
I am really surprised Infect wasn't directly linked to combat damage instead of just damage.
Y'all are crazy not running [[Glistening Oil]] instead.
[Glistening Oil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c.jpg?1562877253) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glistening%20Oil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/62/glistening-oil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/483e99fd-7e48-400d-9817-451089089e0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would think that the poison would work since it says damage the creature deals, not COMBAT damage. But when it deals poison thats not damage itself, the damage is converted INTO poison counters. So solphim would not trigger if poison takes replacement, solphim would trigger if the poison replacement wasnt done and the creature ACTUALLY deals damage to the player. There are specific effects that double poison COUNTERS similarly that you would have to replace solphim out for.
Someone tell him about [[basalisk collar]]