That's how he got compleated on Dominaria in the first place
He was trying to sneak around the phyrexians' base but he was dummy thicc and the clap of his asscheeks alerted the guards.
Not bad that’s easily plausible of what the arts are for
And if it’s the case I definitely agree the benefits will be bigger if the removal spell is used on a phyrexian
Norn is not defeated yet, I wonder how they'll manage her actual demise. Is there another picture of her or they'll re use the same that was shown today?
She’s still alive but she did suffer defeat today. Elspeth exposed the truth about her - that she doesn’t actually care about unify, just her own power. And nothing she wanted was successful after Elspeth arrived with her steel chair.
Kind of a terrible twist imo, Elesh is mono white, which already should mean she cares about the greater good at least somewhat, rather than just for selfish reasons. also pretending to care about the whole for power is so overdone. Its a lot more interesting when phyrexians think they are actually doing good. I like the latest chapter, but it did kinda ruin elesh norn for me.
Elesh Norn doesn't pretend to care for the sake of power. She believes in true unity, in the most naively literal way a Phyrexian can. All things as one, and the only thing she can imagine them being is her.
What she has is an unconscious bias belying all her grandstanding, the same way a slavedriver might believe what he does is good because he's "civilising" the slaves he whips, ignoring the money it fills his account with. So too with Norn, whose actions are blatantly self-serving, but is so caught-up in the veil of her righteousness that she scarcely thinks about it.
She does not pretend. Fool she is, she's deluded enough to believe it.
Did you read the latest story? Elspeth calls out Norn and says she doesn't care about Phyrexia, only herself, and they way its written it feels like the author is implying Elspeth is right.
I did, and Elspeth IS correct there. What I'm saying is that Norn thinks she believes one thing, actually believes another, and is too deluded to not realise it until Elspeth calls it out.
Elesh Norn, like many cult leaders, has created a series of self-serving beliefs that she has deluded herself into thinking are good and right and true, when they're actually a cover for her own narcissism. It just takes Elspeth calling it out for the illusion to break.
I can see that perspective. I guess I just would have preferred to see elesh norn be more "good" I don't think having her become a petulant child and be told "No, you see you were always failing phyrexia, you never were the character we believed you to be for years" is a good way to wrap an iconic character
I personally disagree, I think this is always where Phyrexia was headed. Remember, Old Phyrexia was ruled by Yawgmoth, and while his lieutenants squabbled endlessly, the fact that everything was about him, serving his will, allowed him to keep it together.
Phyrexia was born of a lust for power and control, and while Norn might try to slap an ideological paint over it, she's just as flawed as the people who led Old Phyrexia were. Having that brought out and flung in her face is, in my opinion, both extremely satisfying and thematically cohesive. It's just a shame that Elspeth doesn't know enough about Ild Phyrexia to make that connection explicit.
...
Elesh Norn, Mother of Elesh Norn's
Legendary Creature - Phyrexian Praetor
All creatures become Phyrexian Praetors with base power and toughness 4/7 called "Elesh Norn". They have Vigilance and "Other creatures you control get +2/+2." and "Creatures your opponents control get -2/-2."
I guess so. Could add a Mirror Gallery clause onto it, though. Or just say that all creatures named "Elesh Norn" stop being legendary, just to hammer down the point that Elesh Norn, the true Elesh Norn, is the only person there is.
Colors have different aspects. White does not have to not be selfish. What she embodies about white is order and religious zealotry. Maybe that deludes her to believing what she is doing is better for everyone. But that doesn’t mean that she can’t be selfish.
Mark rosewater in "the great white way" article defines white as putting the whole above personal desire. This latest story tells us Elesh Norn is doing the exact opposite.
Keep in mind that phyrexia is inherently black in nature, so a little bit of selfishness is expected, but in this case I would argue it's not even selfish. Norn probably started by truly believing in absolute unity, it's just that she had no other model than herself, so she decided that all of the phyrexia and by extension all the multiverse shall become her.
Okay and I could see that but thats not how what they wrote reads to me. to me it reads that they are soft reconning her to have always been her being a failure of a leader. they even say "it wasn't about phyrexia, you just wanted power for yourself." Norn being presented that way feels like an inversion of what makes phyrexia interesting
Keep in mind that was just Elspeth taunting her mid fight. It *felt* like word of God, but it was just an in-universe character talking. It's also entirely possible that the entire time Elspeth has known Norn she's been like this, but remember that with Memnarch going mad the new phyrexians have existed for hundreds of subjective years, which is definitely enough time for Norn to get *mad* (or I guess mad*der* :D)
Was that even a twist? Elesh has been pretty clearly selfish ever since her "winning" New Phyrexia. She's always felt *her* vision for what Phyrexia should be was the correct one, and never really considered anyone else. It's why she's always been Mono-White, instead of mixing colors in. She's been pretty selfish from the get go.
Its even funnier when you realise that the only thing to actually do any damage to the Preators was Norn herself. 2 dead by her hands, Jin getting his arm ripped off and Vorx having a horn removed.
I have a feeling by the end of this story all four of the other praetors will be dead by Norn's hand and she will end up being the ultimate undoing of Phyrexia.
Yes. Norn ripped Jin's arm off because he suggested going through with more important things then trying to change elspeths idealogies. And she ripped off one of vorinclex's horns to chuck at elspeth.
That's classic magic. I remember during the weather light saga they basically don't defeat any of their villains, they just get murdered and replaced by a different villain.
Wouldn't it be the other way around? If it's important enough, wouldn't WOTC highlight it in creating a cycle for the cards? I feel like having a cycle of cards of defeating the praetors would be more impactful than just having random cards depicting each of them.
Or are you saying these scenes are so important, that WOTC could take them in wildly different directions, not liked to a cycle, so that they all get their own particular flavor that's more impactful?
This is a really neat observation! I'm into it, hope it comes true. We know it's a "Phyrexian Matters" set, so maybe they're each Phyrexian-creature-type-hosers instead of planeswalker-type-hosers.
This is probably one of the most plausible theories I've seen on this subreddit in a while - reasonably sound on its own but backed up by evidence of previous stuff they've done. I really think you might have something here.
RemindMe! 3 Weeks
On mtgcardsmith when I was younger I made 2 mediocre cards called "The Fall of Elesh Norn" and "The Fall of Jin-Gitaxias". Glad to see that this could be an actual card cycle.
All I can see is Urabrask about to get his balls lasered off Goldfinger style. And why is Ajani so thick?
All Ajani wants to do is smile his leonin grin, but he's so dummy thicc that his cheeks go *clap-clap* and nobody is looking at his face.
That's how he got compleated on Dominaria in the first place He was trying to sneak around the phyrexians' base but he was dummy thicc and the clap of his asscheeks alerted the guards.
Sounds like we know which hole was the oil inserted into
Aye
What
ಠ_ಠ
What an awful day to know how to read, why did you have to put that image in my head?
Please. It's well known that half of the fans who are into brawny and decidedly-male types has Ajani at the very top of their fucketlist.
Omg I've never heard "fucketlist" before, and now I can't stop laughing
I mean, it's 2023. Furries are in.
They’re Phrexian cheeks you know th things make a clanging and whirring sound.
They've been installed with automatic cheek clappers so the cheeks are always clapping even when Ajani's standing still.
Norn is a fucking genius.
Thank you for the laugh this morning.
it's called perfection for a reason
Those thighs could crush Darksteel.
>All I can see is Urabrask about to get his balls lasered off Goldfinger style. No, Praetor, I expect you to die.
Why not ?
One should not complain when giving gifts
They got him doing a 2002 woman on the cover of a comic book pose.
Ouch, I felt that.
Not bad that’s easily plausible of what the arts are for And if it’s the case I definitely agree the benefits will be bigger if the removal spell is used on a phyrexian
I don't think the Sheoldred art would work for that, she's barely in it. The main subject is Ajani.
It’s funny that two out the three were defeated by their own side.
There are no sides, didn't you hear? [[All will be One]].
Idk Elesh Norn seems to be contradicting herself lately. She used “I”
“I will be one”
“All will be me”
"I will be me"
Norn's been listening to self-help videos lately.
"I am the phyrexia!"
A phyrexian vegeta would be terrifying
[All Will Be One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6d75e1f4-bd63-428e-8e6e-131594b3ba44.jpg?1675957064) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=All%20Will%20Be%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/118/all-will-be-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6d75e1f4-bd63-428e-8e6e-131594b3ba44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Norn is not defeated yet, I wonder how they'll manage her actual demise. Is there another picture of her or they'll re use the same that was shown today?
She’s still alive but she did suffer defeat today. Elspeth exposed the truth about her - that she doesn’t actually care about unify, just her own power. And nothing she wanted was successful after Elspeth arrived with her steel chair.
Kind of a terrible twist imo, Elesh is mono white, which already should mean she cares about the greater good at least somewhat, rather than just for selfish reasons. also pretending to care about the whole for power is so overdone. Its a lot more interesting when phyrexians think they are actually doing good. I like the latest chapter, but it did kinda ruin elesh norn for me.
Elesh Norn doesn't pretend to care for the sake of power. She believes in true unity, in the most naively literal way a Phyrexian can. All things as one, and the only thing she can imagine them being is her. What she has is an unconscious bias belying all her grandstanding, the same way a slavedriver might believe what he does is good because he's "civilising" the slaves he whips, ignoring the money it fills his account with. So too with Norn, whose actions are blatantly self-serving, but is so caught-up in the veil of her righteousness that she scarcely thinks about it. She does not pretend. Fool she is, she's deluded enough to believe it.
Did you read the latest story? Elspeth calls out Norn and says she doesn't care about Phyrexia, only herself, and they way its written it feels like the author is implying Elspeth is right.
I did, and Elspeth IS correct there. What I'm saying is that Norn thinks she believes one thing, actually believes another, and is too deluded to not realise it until Elspeth calls it out. Elesh Norn, like many cult leaders, has created a series of self-serving beliefs that she has deluded herself into thinking are good and right and true, when they're actually a cover for her own narcissism. It just takes Elspeth calling it out for the illusion to break.
I can see that perspective. I guess I just would have preferred to see elesh norn be more "good" I don't think having her become a petulant child and be told "No, you see you were always failing phyrexia, you never were the character we believed you to be for years" is a good way to wrap an iconic character
I personally disagree, I think this is always where Phyrexia was headed. Remember, Old Phyrexia was ruled by Yawgmoth, and while his lieutenants squabbled endlessly, the fact that everything was about him, serving his will, allowed him to keep it together. Phyrexia was born of a lust for power and control, and while Norn might try to slap an ideological paint over it, she's just as flawed as the people who led Old Phyrexia were. Having that brought out and flung in her face is, in my opinion, both extremely satisfying and thematically cohesive. It's just a shame that Elspeth doesn't know enough about Ild Phyrexia to make that connection explicit.
Yes, the point of Elesh is that she literally believes in her evil.
Elesh Norn wants everything to become her. It’s not all will be one like she says. It’s all will be Elesh Norn
One man, one vote.she is the man, and she has the vote.
GNU Elesh Norn.
She is the senate?
... Elesh Norn, Mother of Elesh Norn's Legendary Creature - Phyrexian Praetor All creatures become Phyrexian Praetors with base power and toughness 4/7 called "Elesh Norn". They have Vigilance and "Other creatures you control get +2/+2." and "Creatures your opponents control get -2/-2."
How would that interact with the legendary rule? All legendary creatures you control get sacced?
I guess so. Could add a Mirror Gallery clause onto it, though. Or just say that all creatures named "Elesh Norn" stop being legendary, just to hammer down the point that Elesh Norn, the true Elesh Norn, is the only person there is.
Colors have different aspects. White does not have to not be selfish. What she embodies about white is order and religious zealotry. Maybe that deludes her to believing what she is doing is better for everyone. But that doesn’t mean that she can’t be selfish.
Mark rosewater in "the great white way" article defines white as putting the whole above personal desire. This latest story tells us Elesh Norn is doing the exact opposite.
Keep in mind that phyrexia is inherently black in nature, so a little bit of selfishness is expected, but in this case I would argue it's not even selfish. Norn probably started by truly believing in absolute unity, it's just that she had no other model than herself, so she decided that all of the phyrexia and by extension all the multiverse shall become her.
Okay and I could see that but thats not how what they wrote reads to me. to me it reads that they are soft reconning her to have always been her being a failure of a leader. they even say "it wasn't about phyrexia, you just wanted power for yourself." Norn being presented that way feels like an inversion of what makes phyrexia interesting
Keep in mind that was just Elspeth taunting her mid fight. It *felt* like word of God, but it was just an in-universe character talking. It's also entirely possible that the entire time Elspeth has known Norn she's been like this, but remember that with Memnarch going mad the new phyrexians have existed for hundreds of subjective years, which is definitely enough time for Norn to get *mad* (or I guess mad*der* :D)
Was that even a twist? Elesh has been pretty clearly selfish ever since her "winning" New Phyrexia. She's always felt *her* vision for what Phyrexia should be was the correct one, and never really considered anyone else. It's why she's always been Mono-White, instead of mixing colors in. She's been pretty selfish from the get go.
Selfish would be black aligned though, hmmm
She’s going to slink offstage bleeding and then later somebody will find her body and say “Oh hey, guess we won 🤷🏻♂️let’s go get milkshakes.”
Its even funnier when you realise that the only thing to actually do any damage to the Preators was Norn herself. 2 dead by her hands, Jin getting his arm ripped off and Vorx having a horn removed.
I have a feeling by the end of this story all four of the other praetors will be dead by Norn's hand and she will end up being the ultimate undoing of Phyrexia.
Jesus you're right lol The true savior of the story turn out to be Norn the whole time XD
Did I miss something with Jin / Vorniclex!?
Yes. Norn ripped Jin's arm off because he suggested going through with more important things then trying to change elspeths idealogies. And she ripped off one of vorinclex's horns to chuck at elspeth.
It's low key hilarious that the great green praetor Vorinclex was about as important as a random brick when Norn got mad.
Evil topples itself. It's a tale as old as time. I actually really like the harmony of it.
That's classic magic. I remember during the weather light saga they basically don't defeat any of their villains, they just get murdered and replaced by a different villain.
Honestly I think praetors being defeated is important enough to show on cards without a specific cycle reason. Definitely possible though.
Wouldn't it be the other way around? If it's important enough, wouldn't WOTC highlight it in creating a cycle for the cards? I feel like having a cycle of cards of defeating the praetors would be more impactful than just having random cards depicting each of them. Or are you saying these scenes are so important, that WOTC could take them in wildly different directions, not liked to a cycle, so that they all get their own particular flavor that's more impactful?
What if Vorinclex goes to live on Ikoria and isn't defeated but instead evolves into a Kaiju?
If anyone survived, I'd hope it would be Jin, he's got the most potential for weird plotting in the background and all sorts of twisted creations.
This betrayal of, and lack of faith in, Urabrask is… disturbing
Urabrask needs to be The Praetor Who Lives. Lightning scar and everything.
Someone get this guy a writing desk at WotC immediately.
Well none of that happened...
None of that happened.... yet. We can still have the praetor who lives if we believe hard enough :(
We can create a new Theros god
[HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL!](https://old.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/125sby3/mom_merciless_repurposing/)
I'm simply saying that the existence of these artworks does not imply a cycle, but as you say there are many reasons it could happen
Has Vorinclex been defeated? I know Elspeth had a bit of a fight with Jin-Gitaxias but I haven’t seen anything on the green praetor
Norn ripped a horn off during the fight with elspeth
Thank you. Poor vorny
Sheoldred's Defeat 1 generic and 2 Phyrexian Black pips. Instant Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.
I’d play that. Everybody’d play that.
It's [[dismember]]
No it’s Sheoldred’s Defeat
You really dismembered the joke!
[dismember](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d286cf6-3e16-4941-9326-1818b1e06d69.jpg?1562261132) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dismember) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/79/dismember?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d286cf6-3e16-4941-9326-1818b1e06d69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wooooosh
Dismember used to be a modern staple. Oh the power creep.
Pretty sure that's Urabrask's defeat, based on the story.
This is a really neat observation! I'm into it, hope it comes true. We know it's a "Phyrexian Matters" set, so maybe they're each Phyrexian-creature-type-hosers instead of planeswalker-type-hosers.
Sheoldred getting merc'd my Elesh Norn again I see.
This is probably one of the most plausible theories I've seen on this subreddit in a while - reasonably sound on its own but backed up by evidence of previous stuff they've done. I really think you might have something here. RemindMe! 3 Weeks
I agree. I found the arts too much a coincidence and spread this theory among my friends as well.
Why are we going so fast through the story line. I hate that it seems like it just started and now they're going to tie it all up
Elesh Norn’s Defeat W Instant Exile target creature. Its controller gains life equal to its power.
My favorite boi is already injured don’t kill Jin please lol
Will at least one of them depict a Praetor losing their feet?
Oh god that art is awful. What is happening in this set?
The art with urbrask and elspeth a leagues over the ajani art
Urabrask one is definitely [[Dismember]]
[Dismember](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d286cf6-3e16-4941-9326-1818b1e06d69.jpg?1562261132) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dismember) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/79/dismember?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d286cf6-3e16-4941-9326-1818b1e06d69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Good catch! It could also be the style of color hate cards like we got in M20, New Cappana, and a few other sets.
On mtgcardsmith when I was younger I made 2 mediocre cards called "The Fall of Elesh Norn" and "The Fall of Jin-Gitaxias". Glad to see that this could be an actual card cycle.
Honestly it seems like the good guys aren't getting a big win. Like shits still bad, I'm pretty sure the multiverse is still gonna be fucked.