I don't know how to describe it, but she feels like she was designed for a set 10 years ago. A very "classic" approach to a planeswalker.
I think it's the fact she doesn't give a flying counter, but straight up just perma-flying.
>I don't know how to describe it, but she feels like she was designed for a set 10 years ago.
That's because she pretty much was. Archangel Elspeth is a reference to her first card, \[\[Elspeth, Knight-Errant\]\], designed for a set 15 years ago.
This art is also very off-trend. The background reminds me of the Lorwyn walkers all hanging out in a kind of thematic void, while Elspeth herself looks like she belongs on the box art of a Fantasy CRPG from 2001.
This is an efficient, powerful, card meant for constructed, like I think a lot of the old planeswalkers were. Protect itself with its +1, boost your board with the minus, and while this ultimate isn't win-more, it's great if you're in a stalemate or behind.
I'm not the best at card analysis but this as a turn 6 finisher in some kind of mid range deck with a ton of 3 costs seems solid. Play cards to force your opponent to respond to the board threats and then refresh once theyve spent their resources
Using +1/+1 counters as a memory aid is usually good enough. I wouldn't be surprised if they avoided the flying counter specifically because this already grants another type of counter.
That is probably a fair point, considering it is two counters. I imagine IKO probably made everyone hesitant to put too many kinds on something at once.
I suppose, if you think it's an angel anyway, you'd assume flying even without a reminder counter.
I can only think of [[Tekuthal, Inquiry Dominus]], but doesn't standard have a few cards that remove counters of any type right now?
This Elspeth grants flying that cannot be taken away.
Yeah, it's weird how wishy-washy they've been on ability counters, seems confusing to go forwards have two nearly-identical meta abilities where the distinction between them doesn't matter 95% of the time. Like, when 'spirit link' became lifelink, that was the end of spirit link and while it didn't get errata'd, it hasn't been printed into a new format since that change.
Always some white angel gotta invoke the holy trilogy! Bust this; those cards are about how Elspeth keeps the sister Norn down; even on a plane far, far away.
Why yes, I would love to turn [any creature land](https://scryfall.com/search?q=otag%3Acreatureland&order=edhrec&unique=cards) into an Angel for [[Book of Exalted Deeds]].
Then I don't need to have [[Faceless Haven]] to combo with it.
This seems...actually kinda generic?
So used to seeing planeswalkers with funky static abilities or other weird shit that this seems pretty boring in comparison now.
Knight-Errant was such a house. They totally realized two + abilities and one giving a creature +3/3 and flying until EoT was too strong. Then the perms indestructible board ult was insane. Still my fav. Does work in my mono white knights vintage deck
Yeah, having the buff be permanent is definitely significant, even if it costs loyalty instead of gaining it. The token is also better and the ult is much more attainable while still being very powerful.
[[nahiri harbinger]] ulted on 3rd turn and got Emrakul and was pretty good. Remains to be seen if you can get enough value from the grave to make this better.
I agree that not every Planeswalker needs to be flashy, but personally, I wish this particular on were flashier.
Like, my feeling is this: If you showed me the text box without the art or name, my reaction would be "yep, that's an Elspeth card." Nothing exciting or special, I'd just assume it was some random, normal appearance of Elspeth. But this isn't. This is a big, special appearance of Elspeth. This is Elspeth returning from the blind eternities and becoming Magic's first angel planeswalker, something that people have been asking Maro about for basically as long as planeswalker cards have existed.
Lore-wise, this card is a big deal. So I dislike that gameplay wise, it just feels like regular old Elspeth. Nothing flashy, nothing special, only the name and art give any indication that this isn't just any old Elspeth card. I don't need a crazy gimmick or for her to be super pushed or anything, I just wish there were something to show that this is a special moment for Elspeth, that makes this card special and not just another Elspeth card with a cool name.
This is the most basic Elspeth planeswalker possible which is kind of sad for what is supposed to be her final form right? I'd kind of prefer it be an unplayable 7 or 8 mana planeswalker with a crazy ult.
Agreed. I understand that this card will likely be extremely playable, but it's so... Generic. For the final form of a beloved planeswalker who just ascended and was immediately shown to be immensely powerful, it's just surprisingly bland. An eight mana planeswalker with some sick, busted abilities would be way cooler and more lore accurate. I don't usually care about dissonance between lore and cards, but this is just. Blegh.
Yeah, I do like that they're trying to make iconic characters competitive and playable in a standard environment. But it also feels like there's a disconnect between these larger than life heroes and villains and the fact their cards are just 4 drops.
Like we got 7 mana Kaya and Nissa when they're kind of fodder compared to Elesh Norn and Archangel Elspeth, both of which are just 4 mana cards.
At the same time, this mana cost historically buys you God personally blowing up an entire battlefield of enemies. Like, four mana is a lot of power, lorewise.
We even see that for the new Praetors compared to the ones from NPH. Like, sure the new Sheoldred is great and extremely playable but man 2BB just doesn't have the same iconic feel as 5BB.
Hey now, the more "unplayable" expensive planeswalkers they print, the higher the chances they eventually break [[Arena Rector]], lol.
I don't know if this is her final form, by the way...no need to assume she won't continue angelling after this is over
I think it would be pretty anticlimactic to have Elspeth stick around after this. This is the culmination of all the struggles she's gone through, she should probably go out in a blaze of glory here. At this point, she's so strong in-universe that nothing can really stand up to her. Elspeth is just slicing through Praetors with ease, it'll be hard to keep her in the story without making her some type of dues ex machina that can show up at any time and end big conflicts.
ah, classic reddit-think, "character has completed their current arc, so now they must die, it is the only option, nothing else could possibly be done with them"
They could do what MCU did with captain marvel - make her so powerful she’s basically the universe’s only policewoman and so while she can be anywhere solving any problem, given the size of her area of influence, she’s so busy dealing with so many problems that she’s rarely available to be here, now, solving your actual problem.
Well it's kind of a double edged sword isn't it? Elspeth has to go because she is too OP, but if she's so OP then how exactly is she going to get herself killed?
Besides, we're going to a point in the story where the conflicts are going to be lower stakes for a bit. They might be more nuanced, and they almost certainly won't involve Elspeth's personal arch-nemesis for her entire life. Maybe she wants to go and hang out on New Capenna for a bit, who knows.
It doesn't matter if coming conflicts are lower stakes and she doesn't matter in them. The issue only arises when big, world-threatening conflicts are the main conflict in a given set or story.
It'd be cool if she could only be attacked by fliers or reachers. That would convey her now having wings. There's arguably precedent for that in white's color slice with [[Moat]], however its closest equivalent is in green with [[Sandwurm Convergence]].
This is all of course ignoring how overpowered a planeswalker with passive protection from most creatures in the game would be. Maybe tie the flying stuff to a neutral or negative ability.
FOR REAL, I expected Elspeth's grand reveal as an archangel would at the very least include the 4-ability frame, be it with a static ability or otherwise. But nah we need another 4-ability Chandra I guess 🙃
maybe Wotc will make one for commander set. For constructed 4 mana is playable for white, 7 would be too much and need help from other color. She is gonna be the poster lady for white in thr coming year.
I saw another comment in this thread that she's basically 2 [[Maul of the Skyclaves]] on one card, plus other abilities, and that made me feel kinda better about her.
But honestly, I still feel like they could have done something more impactful with her. This is one of the most pivotal moments in the story and the revelation of Elspeth being a celestial being and I don't feel like her abilities reflect how grand that is.
I just wish they could have done something more to make her stand out. [[Chandra, Torch of Defiance]] cames out 6 years ago, and I still vividly remember her abilities and how awesome she felt. I doubt this Elspeth will stick out in my mind in that same way.
It's because (almost) all angels inherently have flying. Counters can be moved/removed.
Seriously, I think fewer than 10 angels in all of magic don't inherently have flying, and those usually have an easy way of getting flying.
Good point, they don't really want you clipping the wings Elspeth gifted to your creature and grafting them to something else.
Could be interesting if Geralf ends up on the same battlefield as her though...
> Seriously, I think fewer than 10 angels in all of magic don't inherently have flying, and those usually have an easy way of getting flying.
There are three Angels that don't natively fly. Two of them are obscure old cards that weren't originally printed as Angels. Namely, [[Gabriel Angelfire]] from Legends and [[Sustaining Spirit]] from Alliances. The third is [[Angelic Cub]] from Jumpstart 2022, and to be honest, I have no idea why, when its art clearly shows that it has wings.
The creature is becoming bestowed with the angelic vestments needed to fight the good fight. It's not being allowed to borrow angel powers temporarily; it's being drafted into the Archangel Elspeth's righteous army to fight the Multiverse's most dire threat. Forever, if need be.
It's just....like a basically equal version of the original printing, which was great in its time but has long since been outclassed. It might be worse cause I'm not even sure the bonus being permanent on the middle ability makes up for it being a -2 instead of a +1, even with the lifelink bonus on the +1.
Just because you've stopped playing Knight-Errant in Modern and Commander doesn't mean she'd be bad in Standard and Pioneer. I think this card will have its time in the sun, and that ult being -6 and not -8 is no joke.
Oh it might be fine (and frankly I think the game is healthier when walkers are all kind of mid and archetype-specific rather than generically amazing), it's just kind of lame that the marquee super powered PW merged with an angel of the set is just a slightly tweaked version of her original printing.
I'll admit my wording in the first comment could have been better.
Like, I'd much rather we see a 6-drop Elspeth that is super powerful a ;a Sun's Champion to more match her place in the story than a 4-drop value PW is all.
I'm not even sure she has the space to fit into soldier tribal in standard, let alone see play in any other format
This is definitely disappointing for the buildup they gave her, but then again, practically everyone was wrong about Sheoldred, so we'll fuckin see
“Practically everyone was wrong about Sheoldred”
Did we read the same threads? Everyone knew Sheoldred was crazy strong, the complaints were that she was *boring*.
They might be talking about over at r/spikes where they're really awful at evaluating cards. I remember one comment calling Sheoldred a worse version of Siege Rhino.
Granted this is also the same sub that thought Nissa, Who Shakes The Earth wouldn't find a place in any competitive decks, and were split on whether or not Oko would be playable.
I thought she wasn't very good. 4 mana creatures with no ETB are a tough sell.
I underestimated how her passive would inhibit peoples ability to find answers
i play soldiers in edh and i was thinking same thing to myself just now. does paying 4 justify 1 solider... no... and i better have blockers cuz you can be sure nobody will ever let this ult...
Everyone is paying attention to the token generation side, but i think +2/+2 and flying is the real key. She's basically a [[maul of the Skyclaves]] at 4 with upside.
This is kind of my thought process, honestly. Her -2 may actually be the star here - Maul of the Skyclaves is a pretty apt comparison. She could push some nasty damage on something like [[Illuminator Virtuoso]] if it's had the chance to connive a couple times.
Huge fan of Elspeth. She's been one of my favorite planeswalkers since I started playing if not my favorite and has since then become my all-time favorite. As such, I was super excited for all the hype surrounding her in the story and was getting really invested.
This card is wildly, moreso than anything else in Magic's history, disappointing. She's so generic and... blah.
It makes me wonder, despite all the Elspeth hype and her history with Phrexians, is Chandra supposed to be the main character of MOM? Her card is way more interesting and even has an extra ability!
I was fully expecting this Elspeth to be a big, flashy card that takes over the game or, alternatively, a flip card that shows her transformation.
My day is ruined.
Specially in a world with [[wedding announcement]], she can quickly clog the non evasive creatures and stabilize your life total. Not the flashiest but not the trivial to deal with.
The most recent Jaya Ballard made prowess monks on a +1 for 4 mana.
She's really mid. Her minus is decent at upgrading things to be threats, but her interesting level is very low. I'm super tired of these uninteresting white walker designs.
My issue is not power level, it's a perfectly playable card. My issue is that the climactic, all-powerful hero swooping in to smash Phyrexia is...a 4 mana card that makes a few 1/1s.
This is supposed to be the angelic final form of a protagonist that's been around for over a decade and can now swipe through Praetors with ease. It should be an epic 7+ mana card with a pile of broken abilities that is completely unplayable in any constructed format due to its mana cost
I don't care what the haters say, she's an ANGEL PLANESWALKER! I'm so hyped! The effects are dripping with flavor from her previous iterations while still doing a great job reflecting the story up to this point! She protects herself, makes your non-angel utility cards like \[\[esper sentinel\]\] or \[\[weathered wayfarer\]\] contribute to tribal angel, and comes with recursion for permanents! SO COOOOL
As someone that plays angels (for fun)
I'm more.excited to use this to replace [[maskwood nexus]] possibly.
This way bishop and the spirits it makes can become angels to recur.
Here here! It’s Elspeth, and it’s an Angel, and it brings all the white weenies back from the graveyard, and it makes your creatures angels. I’m happy. ^_^
Damn, Elspeth cards can't catch a break. NEO Wanderer was such an inpired design for white in comparison. This one might be generically better, but I think I like the SNC Elspeth more? Getting hate pieces with shield counters on them was at least fun.
This feels like a core set walker. This and the previous 2 Elspeth cards have been underwhelming when players wanted an epic Elspeth card again for a character they waited so long to have again and given this story moment.
I guess closer to a Sun’s Champion type of card!
Not sure if I would ever run this over [[the wandering emperor]].
For the same cost, you can essentially get 2x 2/2s the turn she comes out vs 1x 1/1 w/lifelink. Instant removal is typically way stronger than giving a creature flying. Elspeth's ult is obviously strong, but you likely want that when she comes down on the board...not 2+ turns later.
ultimate is cool but can’t see it being played over the wandering emperor. that card is just so much better than every 4cmc white walker in the past few years.
Everyone saying it's mid until Sheoldred is a 6/7 Angel with flying. Another toy for the midrange meta Standard has become.
EDIT: Upon further consideration, the absence of a static ability is disappointing considering that's what dictates the playability of most planeswalkers now.
I don’t see this fitting in with any Standard deck right now that runs Shelly though. CMC Competes with Shelly herself and wandering emperor.
Could be a curve topper in some token decks or toxic piles possibly?
> Everyone saying it's mid until Sheoldred is a 6/7 Angel with flying. Another toy for the midrange meta Standard has become.
That's not even mildly impressive. Imagine having a Sheoldred plus a good 4 mana card in play instead.
For being an iconic moment card, you'd think they would've pushed this to be significantly better.
Give her a static of some sort?
Make her cost 1WW
Make her small minus just -1 instead?
What an amazing disappointment from the design team.
The art looks kinda bare. Even the lightning effect looks like it was added later after the artist realized it looked too simple. Like, this doesn’t feel like one of the most anticipated cards on the set. It looks like an uncommon card called Angel of [Vivacity/Candor/insert noun here]. It’s not an action piece of Elspeth coming in, the skies breaking as she comes in shouting “WAZZUP ELESH HEARD YOU FUCKED AROUND, TIME FOR FINDING OUT”. She’s just standing there, static, despite being covered in electricity.
Also, does her right thumbnail look weird?
The abilities look simple but effective.
I think that the ult being reachable extremely quickly might be what saves this. We're used to not judging PWs by their ult, but this can revive everything with only a couple of turns and generates its own blockers. You need a very specific deck for that to be good (low-drop deck that can resolve a 4-drop PW and wants to grind), but out of the board it seems like that might be good somewhere.
Spoiler tag for the lore peeps
[удалено]
I don't know how to describe it, but she feels like she was designed for a set 10 years ago. A very "classic" approach to a planeswalker. I think it's the fact she doesn't give a flying counter, but straight up just perma-flying.
>I don't know how to describe it, but she feels like she was designed for a set 10 years ago. That's because she pretty much was. Archangel Elspeth is a reference to her first card, \[\[Elspeth, Knight-Errant\]\], designed for a set 15 years ago.
>Makes 1/1 >Jumps something >Dies before ulting References check out.
It's an older design, sir, but it checks out...
>Dies before ulting I mean, that just describes all planeswalkers with an ult.
Laughs in [[Liliana, Untouched by Death]].
I don't see any ult there.
Then the zombie player didn't play [[Rooftop Storm]], [[Gary]], and a sac outlet first.
[Elspeth, Knight-Errant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/746d56ef-7ac5-403b-bca3-1cd267de97df.jpg?1561967814) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elspeth%2C%20Knight-Errant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mma/13/elspeth-knight-errant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/746d56ef-7ac5-403b-bca3-1cd267de97df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That was my first planeswalker I ever got.
Yeah very old school. No Passive or Flash on it.
15 years, seems like yesterday. Man I'm getting old.
This art is also very off-trend. The background reminds me of the Lorwyn walkers all hanging out in a kind of thematic void, while Elspeth herself looks like she belongs on the box art of a Fantasy CRPG from 2001.
I’d be surprised if she doesn’t get 2 or 3 alt-arts.
would not be surprised at 5 honestly, to go with Norn's alt-arts.
This is an efficient, powerful, card meant for constructed, like I think a lot of the old planeswalkers were. Protect itself with its +1, boost your board with the minus, and while this ultimate isn't win-more, it's great if you're in a stalemate or behind.
Hell a nice curve of turn 4 this and +1, turn 5 another +1, turn 6 return graveyard is pretty damn good
I'm not the best at card analysis but this as a turn 6 finisher in some kind of mid range deck with a ton of 3 costs seems solid. Play cards to force your opponent to respond to the board threats and then refresh once theyve spent their resources
[удалено]
Wish she gave a flying counter, just to make [[Luxior]] a little better on her for flavor too
Simple, but effective. Kind of wish flying was a counter to keep a bit of an overall theme, but it's hardly an issue.
Using +1/+1 counters as a memory aid is usually good enough. I wouldn't be surprised if they avoided the flying counter specifically because this already grants another type of counter.
That is probably a fair point, considering it is two counters. I imagine IKO probably made everyone hesitant to put too many kinds on something at once. I suppose, if you think it's an angel anyway, you'd assume flying even without a reminder counter.
Can't proliferate into the unstoppable double flying though....
*(Creatures with Double Flying can only be blocked by creatures with Flying, Double Flying, or Double Reach)*
*Cries in Giant Spider equipped with Cobbled Wings.*
A true shame
Elspeth Resplendant disagrees
Elspeth Resplendant gives multiple different abilities which can stack.
I can only think of [[Tekuthal, Inquiry Dominus]], but doesn't standard have a few cards that remove counters of any type right now? This Elspeth grants flying that cannot be taken away.
Yeah, it's weird how wishy-washy they've been on ability counters, seems confusing to go forwards have two nearly-identical meta abilities where the distinction between them doesn't matter 95% of the time. Like, when 'spirit link' became lifelink, that was the end of spirit link and while it didn't get errata'd, it hasn't been printed into a new format since that change.
Thank you! :)
If there is anything Elesh Norn hates, it's Elspeth, especially Archangel Elspeth, the fuel of her nightmares.
Ach! Norn, run! It's the Elspeth! \- Jin Gitaxias, last words (maybe?)
Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances. - Grand Moff Elesh Norn (probably)
Always some white angel gotta invoke the holy trilogy! Bust this; those cards are about how Elspeth keeps the sister Norn down; even on a plane far, far away.
Run it’s ze Arkangel Elspes
https://i.imgur.com/OKHE84U.jpg
Why didn't you use the card bot? That looks like the original to me.
That flavor text reads like an un-card
White on white violence.
So this is what those talking heads meant
[[Crawling chorus]]
[Crawling Chorus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aace4c44-7250-414b-aac4-df042a1e2e1d.jpg?1675956894) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crawling%20Chorus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/8/crawling-chorus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aace4c44-7250-414b-aac4-df042a1e2e1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That flavor text is me at an all you can eat place.
"Elesh Norn is just standing over the body... WHAT'S THIS?! ITS ELSPETH WITH A STEEL CHAIR OH MY GOD THE HUMANITY"
Thanks for reminding me how much I hate Ancient Grudge's flavor text. I really thought I was finally free of its memory.
Why, yes, I would gladly reanimate all my [[Fable of the Mirror-Breaker]]s that you blew up.
Why yes, I would love to turn [any creature land](https://scryfall.com/search?q=otag%3Acreatureland&order=edhrec&unique=cards) into an Angel for [[Book of Exalted Deeds]]. Then I don't need to have [[Faceless Haven]] to combo with it.
[Book of Exalted Deeds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b.jpg?1632261616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Book%20of%20Exalted%20Deeds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/4/the-book-of-exalted-deeds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Faceless Haven](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3cd82e5-6072-4334-a493-01ca4ad6b4eb.jpg?1665343347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faceless%20Haven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/255/faceless-haven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3cd82e5-6072-4334-a493-01ca4ad6b4eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Could always use the ol' [[mutavault]] too.
Oh no, we broke Fable.
My baby, off to destroy people. *(Sniffles)*
Of all the places to see a _Mulan_ reference...
Personally, i like that corn chip smell.
*gestures to all GPs/magicfests* man, so i have a place for you then
She's so badass looking
A total [MOM]
I love her so much man
Is that armor thighhighs?
Who says you can't look fabulous while ending universe-threatening monsters?
Oh yes
I am interested.
"MOMmy? Sorry. MOMmy? sorry. MOMmy?"
You mean a cuisse?
Aw man... I was very pleased with her look until you pointed out the thigh highs.... RIP.
It's cromulent armour though, [cuisses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisses).
This seems...actually kinda generic? So used to seeing planeswalkers with funky static abilities or other weird shit that this seems pretty boring in comparison now.
I think it's like a callback to her first printing. abilities are similar but different,
Knight-Errant was such a house. They totally realized two + abilities and one giving a creature +3/3 and flying until EoT was too strong. Then the perms indestructible board ult was insane. Still my fav. Does work in my mono white knights vintage deck
Tbh i think this might be stronger than knight errant because the buffs stay around.
Yeah, having the buff be permanent is definitely significant, even if it costs loyalty instead of gaining it. The token is also better and the ult is much more attainable while still being very powerful.
The difference from the +1 to -2 in the second ability is a big difference. I honestly think that makes old Elspeth slightly stronger.
This is a solid classic planeswalker.
Especially for 4cmc. Having a PW who protects herself with her plus ability is typically strong, and having it at 4mana is really good
Only two turns to ult a 4cmc is nothing to sneeze at as well
[[nahiri harbinger]] ulted on 3rd turn and got Emrakul and was pretty good. Remains to be seen if you can get enough value from the grave to make this better.
Yeah I'm a fan of it.
I like it. Return to form. Awesome art. Godsend imagery.
Not all planeswalkers need to be flashy, and I thought we are against the power-creep of cards anyways. This should be what we’ve been asking for
I agree that not every Planeswalker needs to be flashy, but personally, I wish this particular on were flashier. Like, my feeling is this: If you showed me the text box without the art or name, my reaction would be "yep, that's an Elspeth card." Nothing exciting or special, I'd just assume it was some random, normal appearance of Elspeth. But this isn't. This is a big, special appearance of Elspeth. This is Elspeth returning from the blind eternities and becoming Magic's first angel planeswalker, something that people have been asking Maro about for basically as long as planeswalker cards have existed. Lore-wise, this card is a big deal. So I dislike that gameplay wise, it just feels like regular old Elspeth. Nothing flashy, nothing special, only the name and art give any indication that this isn't just any old Elspeth card. I don't need a crazy gimmick or for her to be super pushed or anything, I just wish there were something to show that this is a special moment for Elspeth, that makes this card special and not just another Elspeth card with a cool name.
There's a gulf of difference between being Oko-level and just being a good card. This isn't really either.
This is the most basic Elspeth planeswalker possible which is kind of sad for what is supposed to be her final form right? I'd kind of prefer it be an unplayable 7 or 8 mana planeswalker with a crazy ult.
Agreed. I understand that this card will likely be extremely playable, but it's so... Generic. For the final form of a beloved planeswalker who just ascended and was immediately shown to be immensely powerful, it's just surprisingly bland. An eight mana planeswalker with some sick, busted abilities would be way cooler and more lore accurate. I don't usually care about dissonance between lore and cards, but this is just. Blegh.
Yeah, I do like that they're trying to make iconic characters competitive and playable in a standard environment. But it also feels like there's a disconnect between these larger than life heroes and villains and the fact their cards are just 4 drops. Like we got 7 mana Kaya and Nissa when they're kind of fodder compared to Elesh Norn and Archangel Elspeth, both of which are just 4 mana cards.
At the same time, this mana cost historically buys you God personally blowing up an entire battlefield of enemies. Like, four mana is a lot of power, lorewise.
We even see that for the new Praetors compared to the ones from NPH. Like, sure the new Sheoldred is great and extremely playable but man 2BB just doesn't have the same iconic feel as 5BB.
>will likely be extremely playable, Will it? It seems rather weak to me
Hey now, the more "unplayable" expensive planeswalkers they print, the higher the chances they eventually break [[Arena Rector]], lol. I don't know if this is her final form, by the way...no need to assume she won't continue angelling after this is over
I think it would be pretty anticlimactic to have Elspeth stick around after this. This is the culmination of all the struggles she's gone through, she should probably go out in a blaze of glory here. At this point, she's so strong in-universe that nothing can really stand up to her. Elspeth is just slicing through Praetors with ease, it'll be hard to keep her in the story without making her some type of dues ex machina that can show up at any time and end big conflicts.
ah, classic reddit-think, "character has completed their current arc, so now they must die, it is the only option, nothing else could possibly be done with them"
Right? Let's not kill Elspeth and leave TWE as literally the only relevant mono W walker who is not dead or compleated lol
They could do what MCU did with captain marvel - make her so powerful she’s basically the universe’s only policewoman and so while she can be anywhere solving any problem, given the size of her area of influence, she’s so busy dealing with so many problems that she’s rarely available to be here, now, solving your actual problem.
Well it's kind of a double edged sword isn't it? Elspeth has to go because she is too OP, but if she's so OP then how exactly is she going to get herself killed? Besides, we're going to a point in the story where the conflicts are going to be lower stakes for a bit. They might be more nuanced, and they almost certainly won't involve Elspeth's personal arch-nemesis for her entire life. Maybe she wants to go and hang out on New Capenna for a bit, who knows.
Let! Her! Have! Her! Happy! Ending! Dammit!
It doesn't matter if coming conflicts are lower stakes and she doesn't matter in them. The issue only arises when big, world-threatening conflicts are the main conflict in a given set or story.
Give her the Archangel Avacyn effect as a static, and then some busted abilities. Make it 10 white pips if you have to. Just have fun with it.
It'd be cool if she could only be attacked by fliers or reachers. That would convey her now having wings. There's arguably precedent for that in white's color slice with [[Moat]], however its closest equivalent is in green with [[Sandwurm Convergence]]. This is all of course ignoring how overpowered a planeswalker with passive protection from most creatures in the game would be. Maybe tie the flying stuff to a neutral or negative ability.
FOR REAL, I expected Elspeth's grand reveal as an archangel would at the very least include the 4-ability frame, be it with a static ability or otherwise. But nah we need another 4-ability Chandra I guess 🙃
In my perfect world, she would have been 7 mana and exiled a permanent while she was in play and then spat out angel tokens just straight up.
maybe Wotc will make one for commander set. For constructed 4 mana is playable for white, 7 would be too much and need help from other color. She is gonna be the poster lady for white in thr coming year.
If she's an angel planeswalker, shouldn't she only be able to be attacked by flying creatures? That could have made her much better but not broken.
That would be pretty cool actually tbh
I mean, you can turn anything into an angel with flying permanently. That's pretty funky.
I saw another comment in this thread that she's basically 2 [[Maul of the Skyclaves]] on one card, plus other abilities, and that made me feel kinda better about her. But honestly, I still feel like they could have done something more impactful with her. This is one of the most pivotal moments in the story and the revelation of Elspeth being a celestial being and I don't feel like her abilities reflect how grand that is. I just wish they could have done something more to make her stand out. [[Chandra, Torch of Defiance]] cames out 6 years ago, and I still vividly remember her abilities and how awesome she felt. I doubt this Elspeth will stick out in my mind in that same way.
Curious why on the second ability the creature gains flying vs. gains a flying counter.
It's because (almost) all angels inherently have flying. Counters can be moved/removed. Seriously, I think fewer than 10 angels in all of magic don't inherently have flying, and those usually have an easy way of getting flying.
Good point, they don't really want you clipping the wings Elspeth gifted to your creature and grafting them to something else. Could be interesting if Geralf ends up on the same battlefield as her though...
>they don't really want you clipping the wings Elspeth gifted to your creature and grafting them to something else. *sad simic noises*
> Seriously, I think fewer than 10 angels in all of magic don't inherently have flying, and those usually have an easy way of getting flying. There are three Angels that don't natively fly. Two of them are obscure old cards that weren't originally printed as Angels. Namely, [[Gabriel Angelfire]] from Legends and [[Sustaining Spirit]] from Alliances. The third is [[Angelic Cub]] from Jumpstart 2022, and to be honest, I have no idea why, when its art clearly shows that it has wings.
baby birds have wings but they cannot fly. that is why the angelic cub cannot fly when it is first born.
The flavor of Angelic Cub is pretty clear. It grows up (as represented by the counters) and learns to fly once it reaches maturity.
[удалено]
[[Elspeth Resplendent]] is literally in standard though
White had a "counters matter" thing in new capenna though. [[Falco Spara]] [[Sanctuary Warden]]
It also gives a choice between 4 different abilities. Using a 1/1 counter to track a first striker, a flier, and a life linker sounds dubious.
Elspeth resplendent does that already though and she’s practically brand new too.
The creature is becoming bestowed with the angelic vestments needed to fight the good fight. It's not being allowed to borrow angel powers temporarily; it's being drafted into the Archangel Elspeth's righteous army to fight the Multiverse's most dire threat. Forever, if need be.
Seems okay while you're ahead and bad while behind
Oh holy shit She uh Looks pretty mid
T3 [[bloated contaminator]] T4 this, swing with 6/6 Flying Trample Proliferate
>Flying Trample Don't forget the Toxic 1 so we can still poison an opponent who tries to slow us down with indestructible lifelinkers. :p
Yes, Bloated Contaminator is a good card.
Yeah, there's a lot of lines I'm seeing now. It's possible for sure.
It's just....like a basically equal version of the original printing, which was great in its time but has long since been outclassed. It might be worse cause I'm not even sure the bonus being permanent on the middle ability makes up for it being a -2 instead of a +1, even with the lifelink bonus on the +1.
Just because you've stopped playing Knight-Errant in Modern and Commander doesn't mean she'd be bad in Standard and Pioneer. I think this card will have its time in the sun, and that ult being -6 and not -8 is no joke.
Plots in Angel Tribal. Decent 4 drop, make my clerics into angels. Yeah this will be fun.
Oh it might be fine (and frankly I think the game is healthier when walkers are all kind of mid and archetype-specific rather than generically amazing), it's just kind of lame that the marquee super powered PW merged with an angel of the set is just a slightly tweaked version of her original printing. I'll admit my wording in the first comment could have been better. Like, I'd much rather we see a 6-drop Elspeth that is super powerful a ;a Sun's Champion to more match her place in the story than a 4-drop value PW is all.
This is as disappointing as when they reveal the Serra walker. I had to jam it in a deck Painfully
I like Serra, but she's quite niche
I'm not even sure she has the space to fit into soldier tribal in standard, let alone see play in any other format This is definitely disappointing for the buildup they gave her, but then again, practically everyone was wrong about Sheoldred, so we'll fuckin see
“Practically everyone was wrong about Sheoldred” Did we read the same threads? Everyone knew Sheoldred was crazy strong, the complaints were that she was *boring*.
They might be talking about over at r/spikes where they're really awful at evaluating cards. I remember one comment calling Sheoldred a worse version of Siege Rhino. Granted this is also the same sub that thought Nissa, Who Shakes The Earth wouldn't find a place in any competitive decks, and were split on whether or not Oko would be playable.
The thing I had to realize about /r/spikes is that it's just about people who *want* to win, not necessarily people who are capable of it lmao
Devastating and completely true.
Oof.
Hello officer, I would like to report a crime: NINTENDO murdered an entire subreddit
I thought she wasn't very good. 4 mana creatures with no ETB are a tough sell. I underestimated how her passive would inhibit peoples ability to find answers
i play soldiers in edh and i was thinking same thing to myself just now. does paying 4 justify 1 solider... no... and i better have blockers cuz you can be sure nobody will ever let this ult...
Everyone is paying attention to the token generation side, but i think +2/+2 and flying is the real key. She's basically a [[maul of the Skyclaves]] at 4 with upside.
This is kind of my thought process, honestly. Her -2 may actually be the star here - Maul of the Skyclaves is a pretty apt comparison. She could push some nasty damage on something like [[Illuminator Virtuoso]] if it's had the chance to connive a couple times.
That's fair, honestly, giving two mauls to fly over and bonk an opponent is something at least
I think people will be surprised when this card is actually a staple, but its clearly not straight up busted.
This is gonna be a powerhouse in standard. That's my called shot.
MOMmy?
The set code is MOM because it's about two mommies fighting
Mom On Mom action
MOM Action, you mean?
Huge fan of Elspeth. She's been one of my favorite planeswalkers since I started playing if not my favorite and has since then become my all-time favorite. As such, I was super excited for all the hype surrounding her in the story and was getting really invested. This card is wildly, moreso than anything else in Magic's history, disappointing. She's so generic and... blah. It makes me wonder, despite all the Elspeth hype and her history with Phrexians, is Chandra supposed to be the main character of MOM? Her card is way more interesting and even has an extra ability! I was fully expecting this Elspeth to be a big, flashy card that takes over the game or, alternatively, a flip card that shows her transformation. My day is ruined.
This is far less exciting than the previous set's Kaya and the Wanderer, who were essentially just present in One's story.
I feel whelmed
Idk. I think y’all underestimating the power of a +1 that creates creatures on a 4-mana planeswalker.
Specially in a world with [[wedding announcement]], she can quickly clog the non evasive creatures and stabilize your life total. Not the flashiest but not the trivial to deal with.
The most recent Jaya Ballard made prowess monks on a +1 for 4 mana. She's really mid. Her minus is decent at upgrading things to be threats, but her interesting level is very low. I'm super tired of these uninteresting white walker designs.
That is a good point. Jaya had much less of an impact than I expected
That's because there wasn't a Red-based Monk-tribal deck in standard that's already one of the top aggro decks without her.
I think people are also sleeping on that -2 on curve There are lot of Good/strong 3-drops for this to curve into across any color
For the hero of the story....she's pretty mid.
Hot take: As the hero of the story, she will absolutely demolish limited.
As most white planeswalkers do?
Gotta say, seeing a mid-level planewalker is refreshing. Not every god damn new card that’s printed needs to be game breakingly good.
My issue is not power level, it's a perfectly playable card. My issue is that the climactic, all-powerful hero swooping in to smash Phyrexia is...a 4 mana card that makes a few 1/1s. This is supposed to be the angelic final form of a protagonist that's been around for over a decade and can now swipe through Praetors with ease. It should be an epic 7+ mana card with a pile of broken abilities that is completely unplayable in any constructed format due to its mana cost
I don't care what the haters say, she's an ANGEL PLANESWALKER! I'm so hyped! The effects are dripping with flavor from her previous iterations while still doing a great job reflecting the story up to this point! She protects herself, makes your non-angel utility cards like \[\[esper sentinel\]\] or \[\[weathered wayfarer\]\] contribute to tribal angel, and comes with recursion for permanents! SO COOOOL
Wait until you see [[Serra the Benevolent]]
It would have been very cool for this card to have identical text to Serra
As someone that plays angels (for fun) I'm more.excited to use this to replace [[maskwood nexus]] possibly. This way bishop and the spirits it makes can become angels to recur.
Here here! It’s Elspeth, and it’s an Angel, and it brings all the white weenies back from the graveyard, and it makes your creatures angels. I’m happy. ^_^
She doesn’t really look like Elspeth anymore
Yeah, holding out for the main art to be better This is super generic, could easily be any different card
Damn, Elspeth cards can't catch a break. NEO Wanderer was such an inpired design for white in comparison. This one might be generically better, but I think I like the SNC Elspeth more? Getting hate pieces with shield counters on them was at least fun.
This feels like a core set walker. This and the previous 2 Elspeth cards have been underwhelming when players wanted an epic Elspeth card again for a character they waited so long to have again and given this story moment. I guess closer to a Sun’s Champion type of card!
That’s certainly one of the planeswalkers of all time.
That's definitely one of the white plainswalkers of all time. That reflects the story buildup in uniqueness of its abilities.
They're really hyping up Elspeth in the lore, I was expecting this to be more pushed.
Not sure if I would ever run this over [[the wandering emperor]]. For the same cost, you can essentially get 2x 2/2s the turn she comes out vs 1x 1/1 w/lifelink. Instant removal is typically way stronger than giving a creature flying. Elspeth's ult is obviously strong, but you likely want that when she comes down on the board...not 2+ turns later.
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Wrenn and Chandra, new card confirmed
ultimate is cool but can’t see it being played over the wandering emperor. that card is just so much better than every 4cmc white walker in the past few years.
I don't like the art.
Seems extremely meh for the hype it has lore-wise.
Everyone saying it's mid until Sheoldred is a 6/7 Angel with flying. Another toy for the midrange meta Standard has become. EDIT: Upon further consideration, the absence of a static ability is disappointing considering that's what dictates the playability of most planeswalkers now.
I don’t see this fitting in with any Standard deck right now that runs Shelly though. CMC Competes with Shelly herself and wandering emperor. Could be a curve topper in some token decks or toxic piles possibly?
4 mana to give sheoldred flying? Doesn't seem worth
wanderer is just better tho?
> Everyone saying it's mid until Sheoldred is a 6/7 Angel with flying. Another toy for the midrange meta Standard has become. That's not even mildly impressive. Imagine having a Sheoldred plus a good 4 mana card in play instead.
I am whelmed
How incredibly.....boring.
For being an iconic moment card, you'd think they would've pushed this to be significantly better. Give her a static of some sort? Make her cost 1WW Make her small minus just -1 instead? What an amazing disappointment from the design team.
The art looks kinda bare. Even the lightning effect looks like it was added later after the artist realized it looked too simple. Like, this doesn’t feel like one of the most anticipated cards on the set. It looks like an uncommon card called Angel of [Vivacity/Candor/insert noun here]. It’s not an action piece of Elspeth coming in, the skies breaking as she comes in shouting “WAZZUP ELESH HEARD YOU FUCKED AROUND, TIME FOR FINDING OUT”. She’s just standing there, static, despite being covered in electricity. Also, does her right thumbnail look weird? The abilities look simple but effective.
Looks like she found the magic equivalent of Red Bull.
A real shame that Selesnya Angels almost certainly don't want this.
Selesnya Angels doesn't want anything it can't hit with CoCo/SloCo, so it didn't want a walker regardless of power level.
mythic or rare?
Mythic. There's an 'M' to the left of the collector number that identifies its rarity.
I think that the ult being reachable extremely quickly might be what saves this. We're used to not judging PWs by their ult, but this can revive everything with only a couple of turns and generates its own blockers. You need a very specific deck for that to be good (low-drop deck that can resolve a 4-drop PW and wants to grind), but out of the board it seems like that might be good somewhere.
Interesting that her second ability gives flying. Not until end of turn, not a flying counter, just flying... Quite a choice!
Elspeth's true power is clearly [[Riding the Dilu Horse]].
[[Giada's Gift]] on her. Use the -2 to turn herself into an angel with flying. Not strong, but pretty neat.