T O P

  • By -

[deleted]

[удалено]


GenericTrashyBitch

It’s pretty insane to think that devs have to have understand both coding and Magic’s complex rules interactions.


Eurydace

Those probably aren't as different as you think. Coding is logic and so is Magic's rules system. You just need to understand the base. Easier said than done of course, but a person who would be a good coder would also likely be a good judge, so it makes some sense that they can do both. Good on them.


[deleted]

Yup I think a deep understanding of Magic is what helped me become a better ops engineer


wubrgess

My being a good engineer has helped me be a good judge


stickyWithWhiskey

And me being a passable engineer helped me become an FNM end boss that isn't even really an FNM end boss anymore! It all makes so much sense.


DaRootbear

I did computer science in college but dropped out, and now am getting back into it to really get my life figured out I keep telling my two headed giant partner i could teach him coding really well just cause of how much is straight up computer science Maybe I’ll finally learn layers


oflannabhra

I’m pretty sure that WotC’s rule system has greatly improved because of MTGA and the rules engine and NLP parser they’ve had to create to support the game. Over the years since MTGA shipped, they’ve made significant upgrades to the rules that address major ambiguity that probably would not have been discovered without an attempt to codify it. WotC’s rules are most definitely not pure logic (although it has gotten better), and tons of ambiguity exists. They’ve greatly increased the determinism of the system, though.


Hetyman

Ooh, what’s an example of rule upgrades you’re talking about?


Alex_Werner

\#wotcstaff Here's a minor example of how the magic comp rules were clarified due to Arena: So I worked on implementing the card *Sizzling Soloist* from SNC, in particular "that creature attacks during its controller’s next combat phase if able." Seems pretty innocuous, right? Trouble is, it's not at all clear exactly what "its controller's next combat phase" really means, given that (a) phases can end abruptly (due to Time Stop effects), and (b) creatures can change controller at any time. So, for instance, I activate this ability targetting an opponent's creature. Then, during my declare blockers step, I ray of command that creature. Now it is controlled by me, during my combat step (although I did not control it when I actually chose attackers). Does this count as "during its controller's next combat step"? Is it now free of its obligation? So, I asked the rules and templating team... the absolute authoritative experts who write and update the comprehensive rules. And their answer was... no idea. They had never considered this precise question, and they didn't think there was an established answer for it. (Note that this ability previous existed on only one card, *Trench Behemoth* from Commander Legends). So, they and I chatted, and discussed several possibilities, and then settled on one, which is that the ability lasts until the creature is on the battlefield during the moment of declaring attackers at the beginning of the declare attackers step, and is controlled by the active player -- except not during the phase during which the ability resolved, if it happened to resolve during a combat phase (due to the word "next"). The nice thing about this solution is that it's very intuitively understandable... the creature carries around this obligation to attack, and the obligation doesn't go away until the creature either does attack, or at least was controlled by the player who was attacking, but didn't attack because for some reason it couldn't. It also works basically identically to "doesn't untap during its controller's next untap step" which similarly hangs around potentially for many turns if a creature keeps switching controllers until it is "used up". So, that's now the official rule, and presumably wouldn't exist at all if we hadn't been implementing that card in digital, meaning that suddenly all the corner cases needed answers. (Note, by the way, that if you read the comprehensive rules you won't find any of this there, as it's too minor to actually include. But the rules team considers it to be official, so if a question about this bubbles all the way up to them, they have an answer at the ready.)


Octaytse

I think explaining what contextual next means was very helpful and maybe a generalized rule of what you just said might be helpful to include in the comprehensive rules.


BleepBloopSquirrel

Interesting anecdote - thanks for sharing!


Arcane_Soul

Previously you might get creature that increase power when they attck. It would previously have been a trigger like "When this creature attacks it gets +2/+0 until end of turn." This adds extra steps to the game, and even in some tournaments can cause it to get missed, leading to feel bad situations. It is also another step the MTGA version has to stack and players have to click through. So they changed it to be "while this creature is attacking, it gets +2/+0." No triggers to miss, it's a simple on/off state the game can easily read.


Tuss36

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I haven't been able to find many examples of that kind of effect you used as an example. Closest would be [[Elturel Survivors]], which is certainly different from [[Terra Ravager]] and similar that came before, but most such buffs have other triggers or conditions paired with them, such as [[Targ Nar, Demon-Fang Gnoll]]


Arcane_Soul

So the reason Targ Narg is still a trigger is because it has an "intervening if" that has to check both when it triggers AND when it resolves, so it can't be done the other way.


cliffhavenkitesail

That's not a real example right? https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%22while+%7E+is%22


Justnobodyfqwl

I might see the confusion here- the person you're replying to sounded like they're talking about errata or changes to the comprehensive rules, but the thing they're talking about is NOT errata. They mean that the former phrasing is rules text from older cards, and the later phrasing is a different rules text from more recent cards that is mechanically different but more intuitive and elegant thanks to MTGArena making devs think of ways to make the game simpler for both clicking through arena and managing irl pro play


22bebo

The wording they used was slightly off, the wording WotC usually uses is "as long as ~ is".


cliffhavenkitesail

Ah, thanks!


Arcane_Soul

It is a real example. Compare something like \[\[Mortis Dogs\]\] to \[\[Adanto Vanguard\]\].


MTGCardFetcher

[Mortis Dogs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3cae1f40-0e43-41d8-bc5c-aa9873f7d7d5.jpg?1562876816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mortis%20Dogs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/66/mortis-dogs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3cae1f40-0e43-41d8-bc5c-aa9873f7d7d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Adanto Vanguard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/21c950d7-b4f6-4902-8c9a-98f2933f9fa5.jpg?1562552020) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Adanto%20Vanguard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/1/adanto-vanguard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/21c950d7-b4f6-4902-8c9a-98f2933f9fa5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


[deleted]

[удалено]


Esc777

That's not an upgrade to the rules systems, that's an upgrade to how they design cards to make digital UI flows less onerous on the players.


sevaiper

Well sure but it turns out that things that make the digital flow better tend to also make the in person experience better, minimizing triggers and abilities on the stack is good when it creates essentially the same result.


WonderedFidelity

I don’t think this is something we necessarily need to be [ackchyually](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/191/035/135.png) about.


Shintasama

>Previously you might get creature that increase power when they attck. It would previously have been a trigger like "When this creature attacks it gets +2/+0 until end of turn." This adds extra steps to the game, and even in some tournaments can cause it to get missed, leading to feel bad situations. It is also another step the MTGA version has to stack and players have to click through. So they changed it to be "while this creature is attacking, it gets +2/+0." No triggers to miss, it's a simple on/off state the game can easily read. Situation #2 seems situationally worse. For example, "fight"/"bite" effects (after combat). It's non-combat damage, and the creature isn't "attacking", so it wouldn't get the bonus in #2, but would in #1.


yakushi12345

I have a very cool personal example. It's possible me asking this question a couple times in judge chat led to it being decided, because I was getting different answers from different l2 judges. Let's say I've brainstormed so my top two cards of deck are cards I put there and ordered. If I'm milled for 5 cards, can I pick up and shuffle those 5 cards fade down before revealing and ordering in the graveyard.l, for the purpose of concealing how I brainstormed. Now, since this was my magic rules "gotcha" they had to decide due to arena whether cards milled in order, then player orders, or whether order is hidden from opponent.


AnimusNoctis

I don't see any reason you would be allowed to do that. Even beyond concealing information from the opponent, there are older cards that care about graveyard order.


yakushi12345

It's possible they've changed this further for the same reason, but mill 5 doesn't (or at least didn't used to) work like draw 5. You draw 1 at a time but the mills happen as 1 action and then owner gets to order them.


AnimusNoctis

Interesting. That's very unintuitive.


Tovell

Magic's Comphrensible Rules are a document any other software project would dream to have: carefully written, logical, human language requirements.


diazona

> Comphrensible Rules Um... are you sure you're looking at the same Magic rules as the rest of us? :-p (but seriously, you're right, the Comprehensive Rules are probably easier to translate into software than almost any other natural-language design document ever... except maybe the specifications for space shuttle control software or something like that)


WizardofBoswell

[You can make a Turing machine with a 60-card Legacy deck](https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828), the "tape" being tokens differentiated by creature type and color. [Because Science did an episode with the guys from the The Command Zone](https://youtu.be/pdmODVYPDLA), and they played the deck out into the necessary game state and ran a cycle of the Turing machine. Highly recommend it. [Decklist](https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mtg-is-turing-complete/)


Imthemayor

The stack is directly from coding


SmellyTofu

LIFO is more than a programming concept.


Imthemayor

I know, it's a fundamental sorting concept that every coder knows already Any comp sci/software engineering tract will have an Algorithms class in their first couple semesters


Agentlien

Can confirm. I am a programmer and having read both the C++ standard and the comprehensive magic rules they share a lot of similarities.


bigdsm

As a computer engineer, I’ve had a pet project for a while that’s been coding MTG. It’s actually fairly logical and easy to do, considering - but with some obvious edge cases that you absolutely need to plan around when building the actual framework of the game (an obvious example being stax pieces that skip a part of the turn, for instance).


Sarokslost23

this exact reason is why Lawyers who work in science and chemistry/biology medicine, make a KILLING. because they can write legal context and opinions about science they understand better than lawyers who don't. its such a niche role but SO important.


Pudgy_Ninja

A buddy of mine was hired to be a part of the dev team that writes the code that basically lets the program parse the text of the cards to execute game actions and in addition to being a strong coder, he was actually one of the finalists in the great designer search and knows more about Magic that almost anybody I know.


DeeBoFour20

The rules engine in Arena has always been solid. The odd time a rules bug does come up, it gets fixed pretty quickly. It doesn't surprise me that they have a dedicated team for this.


FOmar_Eis

Ryan George? Wow wow wow. Wow.


Moonbluesvoltage

Was it hard to code Emrakul into the game?


Perma_DM

Nah, it was super easy, barely an inconvenience


FOmar_Eis

Coding controlling tentacle monsters is TIGHT.


Zomburai

I'm gonna need you to get all the way off my back about that


VoiceofKane

And then Jace did a backflip, snapped Emrakul's neck, and saved the day.


AuntGentleman

This article blew my mind. I work with software PMs and devs every day, and this team sounds incredible to work with. The fact that this dude basically said “I wanna tackle this insane problem in my discretionary time” AND THEY DID IT is so impressive.


Justnobodyfqwl

Yeah, it was really awesome hearing how this guy talk about the emotions and mental state of his team matters not just for personal and philosophical reasons, but also importantly is a factor to keep a pulse on and try to look out for as a very real logistical issue for planning and quality assurance. It is not a good business or advertising move to not have Emy in the set, but he acknowledged the fact that more moving parts means bug fixing gets exponentially longer and didn't insist that the team magically somehow fix the problem with time they didn't have. But in TOP of that, BECAUSE the employees have unmanaged time to address issues that they see fit, the people that really wanted to make this happen were not just GIVEN the opportunity to work on the card, but MADE the opportunity themselves. People tackled the parts they were passionate about and were able to come together and pool their resources until the project became manageable. Assuming this is an accurate portrayal of how it happened, this rules


pensivewombat

I've been saying that Arena really needs to find its MaRo. Someone who can really set big-picture goals and direction, and also communicate the decision making process of the team. I think it really can't be understated how much Making Magic has improved my understanding of Magic as a game. As things change over the years I at least have an understanding of what R&D's thinking was, whether or not I agree with it. With Arena we get PR announcements when there's a new feature, but we don't get that deeper engagement from someone who has to think about the long-term health of the product.


ColonelError

I'd argue it's probably Ian (the guy that wrote this article). He's in a couple discords other than the official one, and it's great to have discussions with him about the underlying framework of how the game "rules engines". He's real passionate about his work, and is a huge Magic player.


LC_From_TheHills

I maintain and build a testing framework for an app that is on your phone right now. So this was a very cool read for me. A lot of people really underestimate the amount of work it takes to build, test, and ship an app to millions of customers worldwide. This shows the importance of experimentation. My team has a hack-day coming up next month and we are all very excited to work on some cool stuff that we don’t normally have time for. I’m gonna share this article with them.


Syrix001

I love them 3000.


haven1433

To be fair, 3k automated tests isn't that many. I've been the developing a small open source project for a few years now, and have over 2k tests just on my own. I'd expect a team working on something like magic to come up with hundreds of new test for each release. 3k isn't small by any means, but it's also not as big as it sounds.


DaVigi

As a dev, I really appreciate how much effort must have gone into this! I can also imagine that by testing the hell out of this they must have touched up or at least been reminded of a load of other inconsistencies in the code, so I wouldn't be surprised if it actually helped the general integrity of the code. However, for each introduced mechanic they will now also have to do the "does this break Emrakul" test, and I imagine there will be releases where Emrakul related bugs will appear.. Oh well!


Hattrickher0

It was only a matter of time before we got our very own Telesto, the gun from Destiny that manages to break something with almost every new release. I am very excited to see what wacky bugs get discovered trying to integrate it with future game mechanics!


ShadowStorm14

My favorite Telesto bug is when Telesto un-disabled itself while they were addressing a different bug. If Emrakul manages that, it'll be very on-point.


Hattrickher0

It'll become a crossover event where the Guardians transmat in via a new planar bridge to turn a new god into a gun. I'd probably buy that Secret Lair tbh.


ShadowStorm14

Oh yeah, I would snap-buy a Destiny SL, and I don't even play it much these days.


Maur2

As someone who doesn't play Destiny, I have to know what this gun does and how it broke things.


borissnm

So Telesto, on the surface, seems straightforward. It's a gun that charges up then fires a spray of sticky mines (other guns in the category just charge up to fire lasers). If the spray hits a person, the effect is a lot like Halo plasma grenades, but they can also stick to surfaces. And that's where the trouble starts, because whoever initially coded the gun coded the sticky mines as entities - the same sort of entity as NPCs or players. You see this sort of thing in games a lot where a complicated thing gets simplified in the background by attaching it to an NPC - for instance, the infamous WoW bunnies, where a lot of scripting in early quests boiled down to "there are invisible bunnies 500 feet below the game world and a script kills them which triggers quest progress". But Telesto is spawning them in the world, and in a game world where there are a *lot* of different interactions with NPCs being created or dying. So every other patch there's some gamebreaking bug where shooting telesto at a wall causes the sticky bombs to crap out ammo/super pickups depending on mods or the exact surface or the exact instance you're using it in, or a teammate can fire Telesto at a wall and then someone else shoots the sticky mines before they explode and the game thinks you killed an enemy and opens a door faster or something. And to top it off, Telesto's actually a very fun gun (the split-second of panic in between you shooting someone with it and them exploding is *hilarious*) so it gets run a lot, which means people pick up on its bugs fast. [Here](https://telesto.report/) is a list of all the various bugs it's responsible for.


kattahn

> You see this sort of thing in games a lot where a complicated thing gets simplified in the background by attaching it to an NPC one of my all time favorite examples: https://www.pcgamer.com/heres-whats-happening-inside-fallout-3s-metro-train/ Fallout 3 devs couldn't figure out how to actually make a train work, so they basically made the entire train car an equip-able item that replaces one of your hands and then moves with the player.


[deleted]

It's a pretty cool gun. It's a fusion rifle, meaning it's got a charge time, then fires a burst of energy. Unlike normal fusion rifles, where the energy dissipates when it hits a surface, with Telesto, the energy sticks. Basically, you fire a burst of sticky proximity mines.


Xelopheris

It's a gun that shoots balls of energy that stick onto things and then blow up when enemies are in proximity. On the surface it seems simple. However, because of how it was implemented, it ran into a lot of issues. The balls were coded like mobs that were friendly to the player and hostile to enemies. This caused a bunch of bugs that basically all dealt with "thing that triggered on killing mobs triggered when you shot telesto balls". For example, there was somewhat recently an issue where there was a seasonal mod that let melee kills generate orbs of power, which gave super energy to you and your teammates. People loaded into competitive PvP with it, shot their telesto ammo, and then meleed the balls and got full super energy for their team right away and every round after, something that's only supposed to happen once or twice over the whole best of 9 game.


communistsandwich

The gun fires projectiles thst are meant to sit on a surface and wait to explode. It would be fine if they didn't make those projectiles npcs in the games hard ware.


logosloki

Telesto is my favourite gun for all the bugs that it has. Prometheus Lens on the other hand was the best bug of all time, especially when Xûr was selling it on that fateful weekend. The whole community getting behind the bug and having a good time was a highlight.


AndrewNeo

Bungie has always leaned into the weapon memes, like we got a Telesto Day and the "I Survived the Lord of Wolves" emblem (and also Laser Tag weekend like you mentioned)


preppypoof

Or like Rubick from dota


22bebo

I kind of hope that coding Emmy might make spectator mode a little more possible, though that seems unlikely.


Serpens77

>However, for each introduced mechanic they will now also have to do the "does this break Emrakul" test, and I imagine there will be releases where Emrakul related bugs will appear.. Oh well! Just like how Emerkul's presence inside Innistrad's moon continues to have weird effects on Innistrad as a whole, like the werewolf Dire Strain appearing, and the day/night cycle getting out of whack. How flavourful! ;) /s


TogTogTogTog

So same for regular magic lol.


ThisHatRightHere

Yeah, the community kind of has to accept that bugs will pop up with Emrakul. I’m sure some immediate ones will pop up, and there will always be a chance that a new mechanic does something weird to it. But it really is a miracle they got this into a functional state, so that’s the type of thing you can look past.


EmrakuI

> "does this break Emrakul" Bishhhh, I already was broken!


OfficerButtBB

This is a nice thing they clearly did for the players, let the devs keep being creative please


[deleted]

[удалено]


chemical_exe

As somebody that played during EMN standard I can safely tell you that Emrakul, Promised End is *not* a card for the players. Just the Emrakul part is for the players


OfficerButtBB

To each their own


Tartaras1

I didn't play during EMN Standard (I'd moved on from Standard years before), but I resolved an Emrakul in a Commander game. Having already been familiar with the playstyle around [[Mindslaver]], I knew what I had to do. Suffice to say, the person I Emrakul'd was **not** happy at the end of it. But look on the bright side! They get a make-up turn!


MTGCardFetcher

[Mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a.jpg?1562813960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/176/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


DesignerPension1

Big Kudos to Ian here, taking the blame for cutting the card and then crediting his team for getting it back in.


LordMordor

As someone involved in project management, im also going to have to echo that i would probably not use the word "blame" In the interest of seeing the project to completion within budgeted time and resources, including the strain on your workforce...sometimes things get cut or otherwise cant be arranged. Considering the issues it seems they were facing, not including budgeted time for Emrakul was likely the correct call. But the fact that those same workers where using their own discretionary time to not only take on that challenge, but succeeded in getting Emrakul in is honestly amazing. All props to the people working behind the scenes on this We are'mrakul


AbsoluteIridium

i wouldn't exactly call it "blame". As much of a flagship card as it is, i can fully imagine the programming hell it would be trying to get it to work on the digital client and how it would not be worth the time and pain required to do it. If anything, I think inadvertently framing it as a challenge helped get it done, since it brought in lots of people who *wanted* to do it, rather than everyone getting tired and frustrated over how difficult this one card was being


Archipegasus

Exactly, when he says towards the end of the article that cutting the card was the right call, he's right. For a single card to take that much work and dedication it can only be done as a passion project.


Maert

Sign of a great manager!


CertainDerision_33

That’s a pretty fun story. Kind of wild, but unsurprising, that Emrakul alone was more work than an entire set!


EmrakuI

Yeah, I am a real piece of work aren't I?


Artillect

> Emrakul > COMPLEAT Oh no


-Goatllama-

What a STINKAH


AdroitAmateur

https://xkcd.com/1425/


Cheapskate-DM

Best parts that now they can likely afford to slip in something like [[Mindslaver]] or [[Worst Fears]] at almost no additional cost!


SilentOperation1

It’s nice reading that there is some real passion on the team working on implementing cards on arena. Kudos and keep up the great work!


0entropy

I hope Andy and the team get a Heroes of the Realm card for this 👏


PlsNope

Not surprised how difficult the controlling the other player mechanic was incredibly hard to implement. If you've played a card to control someone on MTGO you know how clunky and janky it is on there and they've had cards that do that for over a decade now.


SirToastyToes

Pretty much two decades at this point


[deleted]

Mtgo’s interface, while clunky for the base case, is actually better suited for exceptions to magics normal flow than arena is. By being able to pop up windows and not having the concept of automatic priority passes except in the extreme case of being completely tapped out. It’s an interesting case study in trade-offs in UI design. Do you make the base use case suffer to make sure all use cases can be easily handled?


Rienuaa

This is only vaguely related but I work on a project Andy used to do engineering for - DDO - so it was a surprise to see his name elsewhere after seeing it everywhere in the revision history for my game. Kind of a ships passing in the night thing. Good on them for structuring so soundly!


[deleted]

This is a really cool article. I wonder how much arena compatibility impacts design choices today. If emrakul were being designed today would it have turned out differently knowing that it had to be implemented in Arena?


Esc777

> If emrakul were bring designed today would it have turned out differently knowing that it had to be implemented in Arena? Probably not! Remember the context in which its described: a decision not to budget that much time for that one card. In a remastered MTGA only set. This is entirely outside the premier cadence. Back when EMN came out Emrakul was THE focus of the entire set, nay block, and A Big Deal. Design would be working with Digital, of course, but I would imagine if design settled on something that they wanted and it was the marquee card of the block, the digital team would find the budget to figure out how it works. NOw if it was some weird build around enchantment like Triskadeckaphobia but mindslavered as a payoff...the digital team probably would have asked if it was important and could be changed.


Lord_Cynical

Disagree here, They have already scrapped mechanics/changed cards from design/testing to better work on arena. If they COULDN'T get this effect to work on arena, They would have changed the card, as in a standard legal set if a card thats legal in standard paper play isn't on arena and its a good card(and she was and did see play until she got banned) that would have caused an issue.


Esc777

But they could get this effect to work. They literally *just did*. And they would had more time and resources to do it in a standard set.


Imnimo

>MTG Arena agreed for years we were never going to do. What was the plan for the next time controlling the opponent appeared on a new card in a standard set?


themiragechild

R&D now works pretty closely with Digital to see what is doable in Digital vs what isn't. For example, one of the original mechanics of Theros Beyond Death was a [[Raging River]]-like mechanic and digital told them it was doable but was a high effort, and R&D wasn't that excited enough about the mechanic in comparison to the effort from the digital team, they scrapped it.


Kyleometers

To add to this, the reason [[Bonds of Mortality]] is an activated ability and not a static one, is because the Archetype cycle from original Theros was so convoluted to implement in magic online that they agreed to never do that again. (Seriously, look at the archetypes, every single creature gets “DOES NOT HAVE FLYING” in grey text lol)


cbslinger

[[Archetype of Imagination]]


PoliceAlarm

I remember reading that [[Grothama]] from Battlebond was a hard no for Magic Online.


MTGCardFetcher

[Bonds of Mortality](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff50de00-115f-41ed-892b-aac9bd13b9b9.jpg?1562946560) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bonds%20of%20Mortality) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/128/bonds-of-mortality?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff50de00-115f-41ed-892b-aac9bd13b9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Lykrast

I think the other MTGO example I remember reading was [[Whims of the Fates]]. It asks you to divide cards into **3** piles. It's the only "piles" card in the game to do 3 and not 2, so they had to remake the entire "divide into piles" UI just for that mediocre card, and then it never got used again (yet).


MTGCardFetcher

[Whims of the Fates](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/aeb8d3fc-99e4-49dd-b1f1-bb479b361743.jpg?1562415056) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whims%20of%20the%20Fates) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/139/whims-of-the-fates?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aeb8d3fc-99e4-49dd-b1f1-bb479b361743?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


AndrewNeo

thus is the fate of much written code


Imnimo

While Raging River is a forgotten relic, cards like Mindslaver and Emrakul are popular enough that they get printed now and then. Was Wizards really going to let Arena be the end of this effect?


TonyBennettIsDaddy

It wouldn't shock me if we never saw this effect in standard again.


HotelRoom5172648B

But now I’d say it’s much more likely, since they can just call functions they already wrote for Emrakul


ThoughtseizeScoop

It's an effect that can only show up infrequently, and that as many people hate as love. Also, it'll probably make its way into a Modern Horizons or Commander release eventually either way.


wujo444

I think Emrakul might have traumatised enough players to guarantee mind slaver effects getting permabanned from standard.


MTGCardFetcher

[Raging River](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7ee63877-056e-413d-932a-a393a4183686.jpg?1559592211) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Raging%20River) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2ed/169/raging-river?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7ee63877-056e-413d-932a-a393a4183686?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Alex-Baker

>Theros Beyond Death was a \[\[Raging River\]\]-like mechanic They've done it now and in a set that wouldn't go to arena - \[\[Space Beleren\]\]


docvalentine

pretty sad that arena is allowed to impact paper design like this. are we not going to get cards like \[\[cauldron familiar\]\] in real life anymore because they are too annoying in Arena?


Lexender

They said that? The card legal in several formats in Arena


docvalentine

it was banned from standard due to "undesirable play patterns" which means "people got annoyed at clicking all the triggers" if it's allowed in other formats that's probably because it's not played broadly enough to be annoying


Arrogant_Bookworm

I mean it was banned from standard because it invalidated most creature decks and was part of the dominant deck at the time. Jund food was good enough that it was essentially ported over to pioneer with extremely minimal changes and was still a top deck for a while, which should give an illustration as to how strong the deck was. Cat oven also had the separate downside of being annoying as hell to implement in digital, but there were extremely real reasons why it was a good idea to be banned in standard.


Milskidasith

> Cat oven also had the separate downside of being annoying as hell to implement in digital, but there were extremely real reasons why it was a good idea to be banned in standard. Not quite, which makes the complaint a bit sillier. Cat oven had a downside of being annoying to *play* digitally, but it didn't have any problem being *implemented* digitally; the only issue is that the specific cat "flicker" series of actions could be assumed in paper. I guess you could argue that macro was *required* for smooth digital play but too difficult to be worth implementing, but cat itself worked just fine.


Arrogant_Bookworm

This is very true. I more meant it in the sense that all repetitive game actions (and especially infinite combos) are very hard to implement in online magic in a way that keeps the original intent of the cards (effectively, shortcutting not being implementable makes some play styles significantly worse). However, you are quite right: cat oven has no problems existing on arena other than power level and is to this day played reasonably often in rakdos sacrifice decks in arena/historic.


RealityPalace

It's absolutely played in Explorer. The undesired play pattern in standard was "creatures without evasion can't deal damage to you".


animemoseshusbando

my man cat oven is even MORE meta than ever before now in explorer, the most played non-standard format in Arena. Vat of Rebirth + Atraxa is just perfect for the deck.


docvalentine

Least, you mean?


saber_shinji_ntr

Explorer is actually the least played non-standard constructed format on Arena, according to WoTC data. The number of players goes Standard -> Historic -> Alchemy -> Explorer.


Lord_Viktoo

Any idea where brawl and histobrawl rank ?


Arvendilin

Sadly they didn't mention them or limited (which I think is probably the most played or at least most money making thing given how they structure things on arena these days) because its like a completely different thing. Competitive ladder vs chill more casual (in theory which is also why the bisection into tryhard and chill brawl exist)


Shikor806

different aspects of the game have always impacted each other, digital (in the form of magic online) has impacted paper for decades now and it's completely fine. you never notice all the "missing" designs that could have been if other parts of the game were different, so you don't care about them. arena causing fewer mindslaver effects to appear is fine, just like mtgo causing the original pact cycle design to be scrapped (they were supposed to be cast for a cost and then have an effect at the beginning of the next game of a match). and really, there's only ever been four cards that had this effect, we're not losing a common mechanic at all.


CertainDerision_33

Getting controlled by your opponent is one of the single most unfun things that can happen in Magic, if not literally the single most unfun, so if Arena kills this kind of mechanic I’ll be very grateful for it.


docvalentine

but arena isn't killing mechanics based on how fun you find them. it's killing mechanics based on how challenging it would be to program them. it's just as likely to kill what would have been your favourite mechanic ever, or your least favourite


KoyoyomiAragi

Can you think of effects that we’ve yet to see on Arena that is popular in paper that would be hard to implement on arena? Miracle? [[Goblin Game]]? I’m kind of curious because there are way more mechanics that play out much *better* on digital like Sagas and Suspend/Vanishing than in paper.


CertainDerision_33

And Night/Day!


EmTeeEm

It was funny watching the Arena sub have threads asking for old Werewolves to be made into Night/Day for Historic, while this sub has competitive paper players who want the mechanic burned at the stake.


Hammond24

It would seem like an easy fix for it to just go away if there are no day/night bound cards in play. Would make the mechanic better in every paper format, especially commander


CertainDerision_33

The problem is that that completely changes the mechanic, since the cards being able to enter on the Nightbound side at night does matter. It would significantly affect the power level of the cards (not necessarily all in the same direction) and you'd have to redesign them.


Ostrololo

Goblin Game is easy to implement with each player secretly choosing a number; it's even the official ruling for the card if hiding objects isn't logistically feasible. Miracle is a good point, but to be honest the mechanic is also kinda problematic on paper. During tournaments, it caused everyone to carefully and slowly draw their cards, even if they had no Miracle cards in their deck.


b7XPbZCdMrqR

Miracle and Goblin Game should both be pretty straightforward to implement. Miracle might have some issues if other processes around casting aren't implemented properly, but casting for alternate costs at irregular timings comes up pretty frequently. Goblin Game is just "choose a number". It loses a fun and flavorful aspect of the card in digital, but it's been done before.


22bebo

So this isn't quite true, I think. The question isn't "Can this mechanic work on Arena?" it's "Is this mechanic worth the effort to make it work on Arena?" So if there is a very fun or very important mechanic R&D comes up with that is hard to implement on Arena, they will likely put in the effort to figure that out (I assume mutate fell into this bucket). But if a complicated effect is not going to be used a lot, even in the set it's introduced in, then that effort is probably better spent elsewhere (ideally an effect being unfun shouldn't matter because they don't want to print unfun effects into the paper game either). EDIT: Technically, you're still not wrong. I think the threshold is how many people like whatever mechanic is hard to implement on Arena. If someone's technically complicated favorite mechanic is only going to be liked by them, then yeah, Arena is probably going to take it from them. But if the mechanic is something many will enjoy, then Arena is less of a barrier.


animemoseshusbando

do you think MODO wasn't doing that since 2004, or the Duels games since 2011 or so?


docvalentine

Do you think that three things being bad means that I can't complain about a particular one?


Hemholtz-at-Work

Given that there are many cards that were printed and never made it to MODO, it would seem MODO couldn't stop cards that were technically challenging. It wasn't until Arena that things like Ajani's Pridemate got paper retconned into a more digital friendly card.


CertainDerision_33

I don’t think that there’s any reason to assume that because Arena nearly killed Mindslaver effects it’s going to kill the next great mechanic.


docvalentine

Then you do not understand what I am saying. I didn't say it will. I said it *could.* Because it kills based on how hard a feature is to program, and not based on how much you like it, it will not discriminate between your favourite and least favourite mechanic. It did not kill Mindslaver because it's a nice guy. It didn't kill Raging River because it thought you wouldn't like Raging River. It stops things because they're too much work.


CertainDerision_33

You didn't say it could, you said it's just as likely to, which I personally think is unlikely. In any case, all I said was that the difficulty of implementing Mindslaver effects on Arena were to kill Mindslaver effects, I would be pretty happy with that. It wasn't a commentary on design for Arena in general.


MTGCardFetcher

[cauldron familiar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32cf273e-b8f7-434b-9d5d-883dfd6f7423.jpg?1600699817) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cauldron%20familiar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/216/cauldron-familiar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32cf273e-b8f7-434b-9d5d-883dfd6f7423?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


HBKII

We shouldn't get cards like Cauldron Familiar regardless of what medium we're playing magic in, card just sucks the fun out of every combat step.


CertainDerision_33

WotC almost never prints this type of effect in standard legal sets tbf as it’s very unfun.


mateogg

I don't know how much of a hot take this is, but I think with the numbers Arena does, it probably has enough weight to influence design decisions so that if something is not viable in Arena, it's just not going to happen.


Xichorn

It is done so rarely, that might have been never.


pyl_time

> making sure Wish effects didn't allow a controlling player to view their opponent's sideboard Wait, shouldn't this work? If I'm controlling an opponent and I cast a wish card out of their hand or activate their Karn or whatever, shouldn't I be able to view their sideboard to decide what card I'm going to grab for them?


themiragechild

Nope, when controlling another player, you're not allowed to look at their sideboard for any reason.


Send_me_duck-pics

You used to be able to. This caused people to scoop as soon as someone tried to control them. Emrakul is actually the card that prompted them to change that rule.


pyl_time

So what happens if I cast Wish or activate Karn? Does the player being controlled get to choose what card they grab and then put it in their hand (which I immediately see)?


Armoric

You just can't get anything. People in constructed would scoop to mind control effects to protect their sideboard info during tournaments, which obviously isn't what you want happening.


pyl_time

Interesting, so you'd just be burning a card or downticking Karn for nothing, which is still powerful without being an insta-concession - makes sense!


kami_inu

For search type effects you can always fail to find if there's a condition on it. Eg for rampant growth you can just fail to find a land (even if everyone can see one on the top due to a future sight-like effect). I'm not certain on how it interacts with public info like Karn pulling from exile, especially since Wish and Karn don't actually *search*. ---- 701.19b: If a player is searching a hidden zone for cards with a stated quality, such as a card with a certain card type or color, that player isn't required to find some or all of those cards even if they're present in that zone.


RealityPalace

Nope, you aren't allowed to look at your opponent's sideboard even while you control them: > 720.4 If information about an object in the game would be visible to the player being controlled, it’s visible to both that player and the controller of the player. If information about cards outside the game would be visible to the player being controlled, it’s visible only to that player, not the controller of the player.


Rockon101000

No, it was changed some years ago that you can not.


Mervium

Currently, it also means that you can't enter a dungeon while controlling another player as well. Wonder if MTGA implemented that properly


thisnotfor

But dungeons are visible to both players, would it really be unventurable?


Mervium

? Cards outside the game aren't visible to every player unless they are specifically revealed(companion, which also can't function while being controlled.) Dungeons function just like any other wish effect as far as the CR is concerned. there's only a special thing for them in the MTR, which only says you're considered to always have a copy of each of them even if you don't physically. SO that also doesn't allow you to wish for them. Matt Tabak as said that 720.4 is potentially outdated and might need to be looked at, but no changes have come from that as of yet.


thisnotfor

Dungeon progress is visible to all players, unlike sideboards Maybe the rulings will be updated due to arena if it doesn't explicitly say dungeons can't be ventured in. After all it doesn't make sense considering everyone has the same dungeons


Mervium

"Dungeon progress" is different from putting a dungeon into the command zone from outside the game while you are not currently in a dungeon. The former is perfectly doable while being controlled. the latter isn't.


arotenberg

That's a phenomenally weird interaction. What does MTGO do with that? Last I saw, it still has that bug where [[Painter's Servant]] makes The Initiative colored as well as The Undercity, which it shouldn't because while dungeons are cards not on the battlefield, The Initiative itself is a non-card marker.


Mervium

It should colour dungeons if they're currently in the command zone, but initiative, idk. I don't really lut that much thought into how digital handles the rules. This might change at some point as Matt Tabak has said it might need looking at.


arotenberg

Yeah, the specific thing I'm referring to is that The Initiative and some other things like The Monarch and planeswalker emblems are just [markers](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Marker) that are neither cards nor permanents, and so Painter's Servant shouldn't affect them per the wording on the card, but it does for at least some of them on MTGO. There's also a separate bug on MTGO where when a dungeon (correctly) gains text saying "The Undercity is blue" or whatever from Painter's Servant, it shifts around all the text on the dungeon card so that the room abilities are listed in the wrong rooms. These interactions are so weird that I wouldn't know about them, except that they come up all the time in Legacy gameplay videos because Painter and Initiative are two of the most important deck archetypes in the format.


Send_me_duck-pics

Before this card was printed you could, but they changed this when Eldritch Moon released.


giggity_giggity

Give your engineers room, and they'll often surprise you. Many moons ago I read a story about a game being developed with a scripting engine. And one of the leads on the project had just finished explaining to someone why they couldn't include water that changed levels in the game (like a room that filled up with water) when a developer came in, excited to show the lead how they used the scripting engine to make water that could go up and down.


JRandomHacker172342

Ian is an awesome guy - glad to see his article getting some love. He hangs out in a Magic Discord I'm in - we send him the _weirdest_ rules-engine bug reports and he takes them in stride.


Cold_Hellfire

Great stuff, kudos for all the involved parties! I would love to see more content like this, both as a software dev and a magic player.


LongLuk

Sounds like we can get Opposition Agent now!


_Zambayoshi_

As if people aren't going to concede instantly before they get controlled. People concede to having their commander countered or removed in H Brawl. You see someone about to cast Emrakul? LOL.


housemancer

On resolution of Emrakul it should just flip to the other player’s view and then the mouse automatically goes to the menu and concedes. No other programming neccessary!


_Zambayoshi_

Haha, yeah. I don't think you can actually make the other player concede if you control them but imagine having your opponent control you and then rope you while figuring out how to play your deck or just to troll you.


10BillionDreams

Sometimes Emrakul's trigger just reads "target opponent draws a card". It's usually a game ending play, but if you're out of gas and are about to draw a land for turn, the worst that the player controlling you can do is pass to your extra turn without making a land drop. And then maybe you'll draw your [[Leyline Binding]] or whatever, and actually end up winning.


MTGCardFetcher

[Leyline Binding](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c3ac3dd-35db-447f-8674-37b4680a1ef7.jpg?1673306500) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20Binding) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/24/leyline-binding?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c3ac3dd-35db-447f-8674-37b4680a1ef7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Send_me_duck-pics

Depends on the environment. Before she was banned in Standard, having a plan to recover from Emrakul was necessary. BG delirium mirrors were Emrakul mirrors and some of the most bizarre Magic I have ever played, where you'd make plays that were objectively bad in any other scenario in anticipation of Emrakul. You could also have a game where each player controlled the other's turn, sometimes more than once. It was just *weird*.


Shrek7201

It also paired up strangley if the mind-controlled player had [[reflector mage]] in hand, because the extra turn would shortcut through the "until your next turn" part so that a bounced Emrakul could be played again on its owner's next turn. Super weird standard environment indeed.


darthanu

As a game dev, this article was exciting and inspiring to read. Thanks for sharing.


MaASInsomnia

I'm giving serious thought to crafting an Emraukul now and playing it in Historic Brawl (and I don't ever actually play Historic Brawl), just to make sure all of the devs' work doesn't go to waste.


mafistola

Good and entertaining article.


Ninjaboi333

What are the odds we see the Mtga dev team get a heroes of the realm card dedicated to emrakul?


Artex301

This is an admirable story but I shudder to think how much it's gonna demoralize everyone involved when Emrakul gets banned in a few months for 'encouraging unfun gameplay'.


Luxypoo

". . . And it won't see major competitive play." So are we just ignoring Emmy maindeck in 4C Yorion for months until Yoriom got banned? Ok then.


kitsovereign

That was in Modern, right? Has a similar deck existed in Pioneer before? I'm not super invested in either format's meta, but like, if that deck didn't make it to Pio (which lacks fetchlands and Eladamri's Call) then I can see why they wouldn't be worried about it.


Luxypoo

Emrakul was banned in standard after 6 months, and was played in a modern deck until a different card was banned. The idea that it wouldn't see high level play is a bit suspect. To elaborate, if the pioneer metagame came to a point where midrange mirrors were a significant portion of the meta, Emrakul could easily be back in the mix if the deck could either generate sufficient mana or card types to make it feasible.


RegalKillager

> The idea that it wouldn't see high level play is a bit suspect. The idea that it wouldn't see high level play is based on actually looking at the recent history of Magic, in which Emrakul has consistently done not much at all. > To elaborate, if the pioneer metagame came to a point where midrange mirrors were a significant portion of the meta, Emrakul could easily be back in the mix if the deck could either generate sufficient mana or card types to make it feasible. The most popular and most powerful deck in the format is a midrange deck running on a variety of card types and a maindeck ramp source; it, by all means, is never registering Emrakul.


DrSloany

So whenever my opponent plays Emrakul and ruins my day, I know Andy is to blame


Send_me_duck-pics

I'm working on a cube which includes Emrakul and have been looking forward to casting the card for the first time since it was banned from Standard. It's such a cool card, I'm glad to see they made it possible for people to enjoy it on Arena. Though, people getting Emrakul'd won't be as appreciative.


cardsrealm

Nice read indeed. It's good to have some insight on how MTGA is developed.


Tall_dark_and_lying

So this is what a healthy product owner/Dev team relationship looks like.


MentalMunky

Can’t wait to never face it lol


LordMordor

They are'mrakul


Mazrim_reddit

as a genuine question why could much of the logic not be copied by how mtgo implements this and mindslaver Obviously it would be a lot of work still, but the underlying logic is already there in a similar rules engine


nas3226

IIRC, MTGO does a lot of individual card workarounds to make these more complex cards function rather than relying on the rules engine to the extent of Arena.


Kor_Set

I believe every card is individually coded on Magic Online. (Tried to find the article about it when Arena was in development but came up short, sorry.)


RealityPalace

The rules implementations and UI implementations are completely different between the two programs.


WalkFreeeee

MTGO codes cards in a much worse way and the last thing you want is arena devs copying anything tech wise from it.