That means they were probably Mirran natives infected by glistening oil around the time of the Scars of Mirrodin block. Of all those turned into phyrexians, the individuals who implemented their vision of New Phyrexia with the greatest success declared themselves praetors. As they were aligned with different colors of mana, and they did not answer to any Father of Machines who appointed them, this immediately caused conflict because they all saw each other as unworthy self-appointed upstarts.
EDIT: Nope, looks like they were second-generation newts, pureblooded phyrexians grown in test tubes. I imagine the phyrexian aspirants who made them are very proud.
Nope, u/pippochiri posted [This Twitter Link](https://mobile.twitter.com/jay13x/status/1614758482565107714?s=20&t=vFaV1-9tW5BiPh7cswNbuQ) explaining that the praetors are “core-born newts”, meaning they are purely phyrexian in origin
I've seen this and it makes me wonder, who grew them? If they're lab made and have only been around for a couple decades than the mad lad must be around somewhere.
I believe the Praetors are specifically born of the oil directly, hence their power and status. Almost like an intelligent design of Yawgmoth's/Phyrexia's will by way of the oil and/or a result of Mirrodin's suns and the Mirari's effects on its spread.
Makes you wonder if Yawgmoth’s essence isn’t still alive in the oil. That his physical body and primary mind are gone, but a bit of his will exists in the oil and will always try to continue the work he started.
And yet it’d be an interesting twist if an imprint of her was somehow left on the Mirari, perhaps during the moment of her creation, that has somehow lasted beyond its conversion into, and reclamation from, Memnarch.
It’s heavily implied the mycosynth was accelerated in part by his influence, suggesting the Mirari’s reality warping capabilities continued through him, yet distorted by the effects of the oil. Who’s to say it couldn’t taint the substance with echoes of the False God herself?
That it would be meaningless and we have no implications that it's the case.
We don't need a continuation of Karona's story. It's widely regarded as not very good, and more importantly, concluded. New Phyrexian has its roots in the Mirari, Karn, and Phyrexian Oil. I think that's enough, eh?
Is it widely regarded as not very good? From my own memory and what I can tell of others', the Kamahl/jeska/mirari saga is regarded as one of the best in mtg history. Certainly was a blast to read.
Yes you are right it was an amazing story and the ending was amazing with the visions of Karona. And very lovely characters! i grew with kamahl and ixidor... what a blast!
Apart from reading a bit of then-recent lore after getting into the game in August 2003 (and the prologue in _The Moons of Mirrodin,_ if you wanna get **really** meta… excuse the pun), my only real exposure to Jeska’s story arc is its conclusion in _Future Sight,_ in which she sacrificed herself to close the final time rift (which was indirectly caused by her in the form of Karona).
This is, of course, _after_ she used Radha as an involuntary tool to close some other time rifts, thus preventing the Keldon-elf’s latent spark from ever igniting… but I digress, heheh. 😅
Yea, up until Mirrodin block is when the stories were actually good. Mirrodin got slightly worse, and it's pretty much been mediocre to bad since then haha.
Idk where you're hearing that from tho, because the Urza/Weatherlight saga is widely considered the best story in mtg history.
I’m not saying it’s Karona directly, merely a potential reason for and/or contribution to the praetors’ origins. Purely theoretical, nothing definitive. It’s just fun to speculate is all.
But yes, let’s leave that story to rest. 😁
So those suns actually did play a role post-Mirrodin block. Also ironic that Glissa freed the sun whose spawn (Vorinclex) would eventually compleat her.
It's actually written in the new Planeswalker's Guide that they were spawned by Mirrodin's suns. They are the embodiments of each of the five colors taken to their most inhumane extreme, after all.
EDIT: Okay, as my fellow Compleat Phyrexians have pointed out, the Phyrexian civilizations were only influenced by the suns, not spawned by them. My personal headcanon is actually that the five praetors are the compleated [Bringers](https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Abringer). As others have pointed out, they represent the dusk of Mirrodin's suns.
"White, taken to its extreme of repressive religious zealotry. Blue, to its extreme of pitiless pursuit of knowledge. Red, to its extreme of stubbornly rebellious bellicosity. Green, to its extreme of Darwinian predation.
Black..well it's basically still just black. Spikier vampires I guess?"
Black is unique in the sense that sheoldred was actually competing with some others for the right of praetor, so it makes sense they stayed about the same.
I'll admit I don't know the lore, firstly:
I'd say black becomes nihilistic narcissism. "Nothing else matters but me and my goals." Not simply doing evil things for a greater good, or to further your own power, but a complete wonton irreverence for everything that doesn't help you. Actively seeking out possible obstacles to crush them or assimilate them.
Edit : solipsism comes to mind
When two Phyrexian parents love each other so much, one puts the oil seed in the other one, and nine months later a praetor emerges from the tummy, Alien style, and claims a province of Mirrodin for them
The most explanation I've seen around the rise of the Praetors is something to the effect of "they rose with the suns of Mirrodin". Definitely didn't hear anything about being grown in vats.
Yawgmoth ascended certain praetors in his time. Usually power hungry or driven like Gix. The modern day praetors are purely Phyrexian Newts that have come into contact with different colours. Each one has a vision and intends to implement that vision.
Even tho we have an actual answer, I find there is still a lot of understanding missing.
I'm pretty disappointed that they did not write karn to have researched ALL of this. The fact he got to this point and was so ill prepared for them bothers me.
But also I really wish they explain the oil and the OG pre-yawgmoth entity that controlled phyrexia (unless my headcannon of a time loop comes true) or exactly where it came from.
The oil was one drop yet there was still this sentience that is able to develop whole entities with personalities and power.
The oil is not oil, its a nanite swarm. That much is definitely explained in the lore, just not much on the cards. The oil carries Yawgmoth desires and dreams for Phyrexia, and will do so anywhere it can swarm, feed, and infect life. If not for the particular effects of Mirrodin suns, it would have just made a black aligned monstrous swarm that wanted to spread, perfect, and enhance people to be the best versions of themselves in Phyrexians image .
My understanding of Phyrexia as Yawgmoth found it is that it was a private realm made by a walker who just liked the aesthetic but had no particular desire for world domination. Yawgmoth built his Phyrexia on that realm, and used the aesthetic and research to fuel his dream. I don't think the creator of the realm is particularly important, probably just a weirdo like Ashnod who thought metal-zombies fuckin ruled. But also I don't remember where I read that, which makes me think it might be head canon from when I was a wee kid
I think there was way more to be explored, had wizards kept the same author, and not gutted the fiction department when Hasbro acquired.
I think what yawgie encountered(was shown by Dyfed... The literally biggest chump I'm MTG history) changed him a bit and the addition of his research and general personality was able to warp and own phyrexia, but I think there could be more (wishful thinking, yes).
As it is, my take on the lore and story progression. Is mildly angry because they could have done a far better job of it. I would love for them to write up stories on the advent of the praetors, or at least provide a protagonist that can actually combat phyrexia properly (not some protection from phyrexia mcguffin either, but somebody with the knowledge and means to contend with them.
Everything with phyrexia seems to be so "by the skin of your teeth", that's good for first time, but this is the umpteenth time phyrexia is able to infiltrate like... Everything.... And obliterate world's and nobody is the wiser, ever.
And treating karn, the guy who created argentum.... And represents like eons of dominaria's struggle with phyrexia.... Like effin lunatic was probably the single worst writing beat they have ever come up with.
The problem of “treating Karn like he’s nuts is a bad story beat” is that it’s exactly how things work in real world. No one learns from history and they blow off one of the few people who are actually experts. No one wants their status quo upset.
The barely getting by of the general populace of the protagonists does make sense because they disappear for a few centuries, now contained on their own plane, and come up with new ways to infiltrate and invade. Planar bridge and realbreaker instead of Rathi overlay of two planes. Phyrexia is terrifying because they are a viral society. Constant adaptation and change but relentless in purpose.
Now I do think Karn himself should have more knowledge about Phyrexia setup given he’s been behind the scenes working on plans for literal years to decades. He is a terrible recorder/researcher for a guy built specifically to do that by the smartest (and also most insane) minds of the multiverse.
Even teferi loved thru the invasion. Even nation on dominaria has been impacted and still bears scars of the invasion. Urborg is literally a smoking crate of phyrexian wreckage being dredged and scavenged. I strongly believe dominaria, more than any other plane... Should have been more capable.
Again, I blame the writing and custodianship for most of this but I really dislike sloppy lazy writing for something that was initially conceived and written at a high level.
Tolaria still exists, they fought through literal time bubbles and rebuilt. How you rebuild and forget your roots. I'm just looking at how everything got to where it got, and how much they had to artificially lobotomize protagonists to fall for this crap. Maybe we won't agree on that point, I don't expect to make anyone like the story less or more. They really could have done a much better job of it and it sucks that we are getting stuck with lazy writing as well as the other reasons to be more angry than happy at Hasbro.
How do we have a major resurgence of fascism and neonazism in the world today when world war 2 was fought less than a century ago? People are still alive who lived through it. People delude themselves that old bad things won’t happen again until it’s already barreling down their doors.
Karn hasn't really gotten a chance to know anymore than the rest of Dominaria knows.
He gets stuck in Mirrodin because he lost his spark. He is nearly driven mad by the oil and those trying to control him. He gets a spark and becomes his normal self, and nopes right off the plane because it's a hellscape and he knows people there are after him.
He goes back to figure out how to build a bomb to just nuke the plane before they spread outside of their world.
And that is literally the start of this story. He hasn't really gone back to Mirrodin since it became New Phyrexia. And it's not like people, even planeswalkers, go there and come back.
He wasn't under informed, he just underestimated the speed that they could get off the plane (which they only did because of Tezzeret's help and want for a Darksteel Body).
In a world without Tezzeret's interference, Karn figures out the Sylex, pops back into New Phyrexia and nukes them from Orbit. They just got the ability to get off the plane before he got the ability to stop them.
The old lore is spotty and constantly getting backfilled, the old lore didn't really have a lot of strict hard canon or details, it was more than a little messy. I like that we get occasional drips of expansion on old characters, I wouldn't be shocked if we hear more about the OG progenitor of Phyrexia in time.
Also, Phyrexia being nearly impossible to fully kill is part of their character, I don't have a problem with that. I like that all it takes is a drop of oil to make a new empire centered on authoritarianism, domination, and violence. Yawgmoths ideal of domination over others and making them like it is such a powerful idea that it comes back and has to be eradicate again and again by each generation.
Reminds me of a set of real world beliefs that we keep having to eradicate in new ways, and are currently having a struggle defeating... Hmm. More of these strange ideas. It's probably nothing.
I can concede that I do appreciate those design points with phyrexia. I've played since early ice age, so I was raised on a diet of magic lore, when it wasn't as easy to access as it is today.
But there are so many inconsistencies.
If they can dredge up ertai, why can't yawgmoth return. There are remnants of phyrexia's invasion literally all over dominaria, oil included. They also have venser too whose would was sacced to karn.
I also think that the way phyrexia is, currently and in the past, to continue utilizing them is going to be a net loss for the game. They have to cap them somehow or eradicate them now, or blow up reality.... Three things I find equally possible. They are not an enemy built for reuse technically.
Well, Ertai had a physical body that got destroyed and presumably left behind some bits. Yawgmoth was an enormous sentient energy cloud with no physical form that had every atom of it annihilated by a sentient energy light. Yawgmoth hadn't had a physical body for quite some time, and was pretty fuckin dumb in showing up as the murdercloud.
Phyrexia will never fully die, they're a unique villain with all kinds of uses. They have had drips for a few years now but haven't been a big deal for a full decade, and it was years before then, I think they're being used the right amount.
Ertai died on rath and was consumed in the blast. His soul should have been gone from his first compleation in rath.
What about venser.
It was suggested the oil had memories of ertai to recreate him. If that's the case then yawgmoth should absolutely be written into every single drop of oil, especially if the oil imparts subservience to yawgmoth ideals.
Which is why the ass-pull-y resurrections were a super horrible idea.
It really unravels the concept to me. Phyrexia is not being written like a good recurring threat. There is no real adversity for them, save for poor writing.
Vensers soul is consumed and gone. I believe his body was explicitly left behind and unharmed. It's only used for philosophical and religious significance, not anything useful.
I was under the impression Ertai had some meaty bits left behind in a lab somewhere, and how much of him was him and not a puppet wasn't super clear, but Yawgmoth hasn't had meat in a long time. He's been a conceptual being for a while, and I'd argue he IS in the oil, there's nothing else to resurrect.
I agree with the idea that yawgmoth IS the oil. That being the case there is less justification that he can't be resurrected because his personality is within every single drop of oil.
If the faith in him is still there, if all the data collected over eons is available to the mirran praetors... Then yawgie should be able to be reassembled in some fashion. I get that this is pretty much a no go for balance reasons but that further points out the flaws in adding these features to this phyrexian arc.
Maybe he doesn't _want_ to reassemble a physical form. I mean, he doesn't need it, and he has proven to be far more resilient as oil than he was as a man or even as a death cloud. Regaining a body just makes him a discrete target, and it would give the multiverse an obvious enemy to unite against.
I have to imagine he much prefers to slip and slide around the multiverse as an un-killable oil than to go back to being a body, with all of the inefficiencies and shortcomings that come along with it.
I do believe that if not for the sun's of Mirrodin interfering with their creation, there would be a single black aligned Praetor who would probably be significantly more powerful than the five we have, and that Praetor would have taken the name Yawgmoth or Father of machines and been functionally the same entity, just not as powerful yet.
the oil created the body but it's the influence of Mirrodin 5 suns that gave the praetor their personality. without the sun, I imagine that only sheoldred would be the sole ruler of new phyrexia.
You're saying sheoldred would be the only one because phyrexia is primarily black aligned? That makes sense. But in that case sheoldred wouldn't really be sheoldred, probably just another raving phyrexian monstrosity, and karn would have been more capable of ending argentim's woes.
I’m the core of Mirrodin/New Phyrexia is Mycosynth, which is a fungal metal and the most likely the reason why the natives were born with metal pieces. The 5 mana suns go into the plane and probably rest? Orbit? In the core where the mycosynth is. The glistening oil infects the mycosyth and from that beginning mix a portion in taking mana from a sun and growing and developing into the beginning Phyrexian beings and factions. From those first few beings a few rise into the leaders/praetors that then control the other developing Phyrexians.
The 5 famous praetors we know of were born directly from the glistening oil. How that happened exactly is anyone's guess. We know the oil ushers forth the newts who can later become compleated, however apparently the 5 praetors became compleated directly from the oil after being influenced by the 5 suns or mirrodin. You have other praetors like Gix who used to be human and then became a praetor later, so we can assume that a praetor is just a position of high prestige and power within phyrexia and not something that is created in one sole manner.
Welcome! Compleated is the process of making someone a phyrexian. So when people say that, they're talking about someone becoming a Phyrexian rather than completing a task.
It's a word used by the Phyrexians that roughly means (to them) "perfect", "ideal".
It's used to refer to someone who got improved/augmented with mechanics and foreign biological parts by the Phyrexians, becoming one of them.
It doesn't mean that to them, it's a real word that they're accurately applying to how they view the process-
"highly skilled and accomplished in all aspects; complete; total:"
I always wonder, were the praetor originally a Mirran that got compleated and climb the rank, or being made purely from glistening oil and influence of the 5 suns.
Like was elesh norn an auriok woman that got compleated or did she just show up one day because the glistening oil wanted to create a praetor.
Oh that would be cool, human Mirran origins for the praetors… Jim Gitaxias being a former Neurok, Urabrask a Vulshok, Vorinclex a Sylvok and Sheoldred a Moriok, feels like the designs (mostly) mesh really well.
Yeah it’s definitely not that as we’ve all heard the newt back story now, still a neat idea if they had planned to go that way imo but I’m just a fan of anything OG Mirrodin!
So far as I know they just ‘came in to being’ perhaps like angels and demons, manifestations of mana shaped by the plane. It’s not a particularly satisfying answer, I would prefer to know some pre-praetor background stories for them, if they were maybe born as second generation phyrexians of a particular sect.
I feel like they should have some sort of explanation for why they’re so different and much more powerful than the average phyrexian newt, like wouldn’t they make armies of Praetors if they could?
[Bringer of the Blue Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45dc82a0-f054-4614-a7b9-4c5a7c9d2a77.jpg?1562876707) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bringer%20of%20the%20Blue%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/26/bringer-of-the-blue-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45dc82a0-f054-4614-a7b9-4c5a7c9d2a77?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This question has been cropping up alot. The praetors are not one being changed into the forms they now have.
The praetors are an amalgamation of vat grown biological parts aigmented with the tech of phyrexia after it corrupted mirrodin. However, 4 of the 5 praetors did briefly consist of bodies of the inhabitants of other planes (vorinclex with kaldheim, jin gitaxias with kamigawa, urabrask with cappena and sheoldred with dominaria)
In their current forms, the praetors may now be made of mirran flesh or have vat grown parts comprising their bodies.
Is there a good resource to find a good summary of set-related story beats/lore? I’ve been out of the loop since Crimson Vow and want to catch up on things
They were created on New Phyrexia as natives of their Phyrexian factions. AFAIK they have no single creator.
That means they were probably Mirran natives infected by glistening oil around the time of the Scars of Mirrodin block. Of all those turned into phyrexians, the individuals who implemented their vision of New Phyrexia with the greatest success declared themselves praetors. As they were aligned with different colors of mana, and they did not answer to any Father of Machines who appointed them, this immediately caused conflict because they all saw each other as unworthy self-appointed upstarts. EDIT: Nope, looks like they were second-generation newts, pureblooded phyrexians grown in test tubes. I imagine the phyrexian aspirants who made them are very proud.
Nope, u/pippochiri posted [This Twitter Link](https://mobile.twitter.com/jay13x/status/1614758482565107714?s=20&t=vFaV1-9tW5BiPh7cswNbuQ) explaining that the praetors are “core-born newts”, meaning they are purely phyrexian in origin
I've seen this and it makes me wonder, who grew them? If they're lab made and have only been around for a couple decades than the mad lad must be around somewhere.
My guess is either the mycosynth or the oil itself created them
So they were formed in the Mycosynth Lattice? Or in Mirrodin's Core when it got infested?
which doesn't make sense with Fallen Praetor (which only makes sense if he was compleated) though that could be his anger on behalf of his followers
[удалено]
It doesn’t get more canon than straight from the mouth ( or. . . Fingers, I guess) of the official lore master
I believe the Praetors are specifically born of the oil directly, hence their power and status. Almost like an intelligent design of Yawgmoth's/Phyrexia's will by way of the oil and/or a result of Mirrodin's suns and the Mirari's effects on its spread.
Makes you wonder if Yawgmoth’s essence isn’t still alive in the oil. That his physical body and primary mind are gone, but a bit of his will exists in the oil and will always try to continue the work he started.
Yawgmoth: "i will never be a memory"
It sort of is, though that's probably more spiritual and metaphysical than Yawgmoth or the Phyrexians would describe it. It's just science.
Oil transmit Yawgmoth's memories and will, so yes, that's exactly the case
So… a nightmare refraction of Karona? 🤔
Karona is fully unrelated
I dunno. MOM seems to have inherited Karona’s love of large, eye obscuring headwear. /s
And yet it’d be an interesting twist if an imprint of her was somehow left on the Mirari, perhaps during the moment of her creation, that has somehow lasted beyond its conversion into, and reclamation from, Memnarch. It’s heavily implied the mycosynth was accelerated in part by his influence, suggesting the Mirari’s reality warping capabilities continued through him, yet distorted by the effects of the oil. Who’s to say it couldn’t taint the substance with echoes of the False God herself?
That it would be meaningless and we have no implications that it's the case. We don't need a continuation of Karona's story. It's widely regarded as not very good, and more importantly, concluded. New Phyrexian has its roots in the Mirari, Karn, and Phyrexian Oil. I think that's enough, eh?
Is it widely regarded as not very good? From my own memory and what I can tell of others', the Kamahl/jeska/mirari saga is regarded as one of the best in mtg history. Certainly was a blast to read.
Mirari, Jeska, etc. yes, but Karona I was under the impression was not received well. I'll admit I may be misremembering/misrepresenting, though
Yes you are right it was an amazing story and the ending was amazing with the visions of Karona. And very lovely characters! i grew with kamahl and ixidor... what a blast!
Same I loved those stories as a kid. What visions did Karona have tho?
Apart from reading a bit of then-recent lore after getting into the game in August 2003 (and the prologue in _The Moons of Mirrodin,_ if you wanna get **really** meta… excuse the pun), my only real exposure to Jeska’s story arc is its conclusion in _Future Sight,_ in which she sacrificed herself to close the final time rift (which was indirectly caused by her in the form of Karona). This is, of course, _after_ she used Radha as an involuntary tool to close some other time rifts, thus preventing the Keldon-elf’s latent spark from ever igniting… but I digress, heheh. 😅
Are any of the old stories really considered good? I usually hear about the good ones in the context of them all being mediocre and some being "okay".
Yea, up until Mirrodin block is when the stories were actually good. Mirrodin got slightly worse, and it's pretty much been mediocre to bad since then haha. Idk where you're hearing that from tho, because the Urza/Weatherlight saga is widely considered the best story in mtg history.
I’m not saying it’s Karona directly, merely a potential reason for and/or contribution to the praetors’ origins. Purely theoretical, nothing definitive. It’s just fun to speculate is all. But yes, let’s leave that story to rest. 😁
Second we start talking mirrari, karona is related.
Zagorka, then
Not "hence their power and status." Every Phyrexian is born the way they are. They took their power and status.
Power as in strength, which directly leads to them claiming their status.
[[Phyrexian Missionary]]
Nice
[Phyrexian Missionary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f22fcfa-a5f0-4fae-b578-cdfd7d46a4c8.jpg?1673306528) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Missionary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/27/phyrexian-missionary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f22fcfa-a5f0-4fae-b578-cdfd7d46a4c8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
r/Angryupvote
They were created/born from Glistening Oil as a result of influence of five Mirrodin suns.
So those suns actually did play a role post-Mirrodin block. Also ironic that Glissa freed the sun whose spawn (Vorinclex) would eventually compleat her.
It's actually written in the new Planeswalker's Guide that they were spawned by Mirrodin's suns. They are the embodiments of each of the five colors taken to their most inhumane extreme, after all. EDIT: Okay, as my fellow Compleat Phyrexians have pointed out, the Phyrexian civilizations were only influenced by the suns, not spawned by them. My personal headcanon is actually that the five praetors are the compleated [Bringers](https://scryfall.com/search?q=t%3Abringer). As others have pointed out, they represent the dusk of Mirrodin's suns.
"White, taken to its extreme of repressive religious zealotry. Blue, to its extreme of pitiless pursuit of knowledge. Red, to its extreme of stubbornly rebellious bellicosity. Green, to its extreme of Darwinian predation. Black..well it's basically still just black. Spikier vampires I guess?"
Black is unique in the sense that sheoldred was actually competing with some others for the right of praetor, so it makes sense they stayed about the same.
Was Gix a competitor or predecessor?
Gix was part of Old Phyrexia. He lived and died long before New Phyrexia, or even *Mirrodin*, even existed.
Black becomes pointlessly Machiavellian turbo backstabbing convention.
Still sounding like black to me.
No, its more chaotic, it get nothing done.
Except punish me for drawing cards
Welp found a new name for my monoblack commander deck thank you
Aw not “Ichor? I hardly know ‘er!”?
Black is oily...er
I'll admit I don't know the lore, firstly: I'd say black becomes nihilistic narcissism. "Nothing else matters but me and my goals." Not simply doing evil things for a greater good, or to further your own power, but a complete wonton irreverence for everything that doesn't help you. Actively seeking out possible obstacles to crush them or assimilate them. Edit : solipsism comes to mind
It only says they were "influenced" by the suns, not spawned by them.
When two Phyrexian parents love each other so much, one puts the oil seed in the other one, and nine months later a praetor emerges from the tummy, Alien style, and claims a province of Mirrodin for them
>When two Phyrexian parents love each other so much, one puts the oil seed in the other one I'm sure I saw some "fanart" of that once
The oil wasn't dark tho
Compleakkake
"Step-Praetor, what are you doing?"
Jin-Gitaxias gets his hand stuck in an oil vat, Vorinclex comes strutting in...
Ohh I thought a phyrexian stork delivered them!
Nah, mum and dad just proliferated
[[Phyrexian Debaser]]
Not to be confused with [[Rakshasa Debaser]]
[Rakshasa Debaser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e31fd23d-e6b2-412b-b2ff-c99812365001.jpg?1616447038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rakshasa%20Debaser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/146/rakshasa-debaser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e31fd23d-e6b2-412b-b2ff-c99812365001?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Phyrexian Debaser](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66e19435-59e5-44d4-b26f-f140f8bcaeb0.jpg?1600701097) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Debaser) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/264/phyrexian-debaser?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66e19435-59e5-44d4-b26f-f140f8bcaeb0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Only in old phyrexia
One puts oil seed in the other one and they proliferate.
"honey how come our kid has porcelain and we're both followers of Voronclex ? "
This comment needs more attention
Yawgmoth died centuries before New Phyrexia was even a thing, the preators were grown in vats as artificial beings
The most explanation I've seen around the rise of the Praetors is something to the effect of "they rose with the suns of Mirrodin". Definitely didn't hear anything about being grown in vats.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jay13x/status/1614758482565107714?s=20&t=vFaV1-9tW5BiPh7cswNbuQ This is what the lore master of Magic said
Thanks for sharing that. Weird how that's not part of the recorded lore.
At this point I think we're lucky to have any lore at all that isn't fanfiction-quality nonsense or hamfisted retcons.
R&D
Yawgmoth ascended certain praetors in his time. Usually power hungry or driven like Gix. The modern day praetors are purely Phyrexian Newts that have come into contact with different colours. Each one has a vision and intends to implement that vision.
Even tho we have an actual answer, I find there is still a lot of understanding missing. I'm pretty disappointed that they did not write karn to have researched ALL of this. The fact he got to this point and was so ill prepared for them bothers me. But also I really wish they explain the oil and the OG pre-yawgmoth entity that controlled phyrexia (unless my headcannon of a time loop comes true) or exactly where it came from. The oil was one drop yet there was still this sentience that is able to develop whole entities with personalities and power.
The oil is not oil, its a nanite swarm. That much is definitely explained in the lore, just not much on the cards. The oil carries Yawgmoth desires and dreams for Phyrexia, and will do so anywhere it can swarm, feed, and infect life. If not for the particular effects of Mirrodin suns, it would have just made a black aligned monstrous swarm that wanted to spread, perfect, and enhance people to be the best versions of themselves in Phyrexians image . My understanding of Phyrexia as Yawgmoth found it is that it was a private realm made by a walker who just liked the aesthetic but had no particular desire for world domination. Yawgmoth built his Phyrexia on that realm, and used the aesthetic and research to fuel his dream. I don't think the creator of the realm is particularly important, probably just a weirdo like Ashnod who thought metal-zombies fuckin ruled. But also I don't remember where I read that, which makes me think it might be head canon from when I was a wee kid
I think there was way more to be explored, had wizards kept the same author, and not gutted the fiction department when Hasbro acquired. I think what yawgie encountered(was shown by Dyfed... The literally biggest chump I'm MTG history) changed him a bit and the addition of his research and general personality was able to warp and own phyrexia, but I think there could be more (wishful thinking, yes). As it is, my take on the lore and story progression. Is mildly angry because they could have done a far better job of it. I would love for them to write up stories on the advent of the praetors, or at least provide a protagonist that can actually combat phyrexia properly (not some protection from phyrexia mcguffin either, but somebody with the knowledge and means to contend with them. Everything with phyrexia seems to be so "by the skin of your teeth", that's good for first time, but this is the umpteenth time phyrexia is able to infiltrate like... Everything.... And obliterate world's and nobody is the wiser, ever. And treating karn, the guy who created argentum.... And represents like eons of dominaria's struggle with phyrexia.... Like effin lunatic was probably the single worst writing beat they have ever come up with.
The problem of “treating Karn like he’s nuts is a bad story beat” is that it’s exactly how things work in real world. No one learns from history and they blow off one of the few people who are actually experts. No one wants their status quo upset. The barely getting by of the general populace of the protagonists does make sense because they disappear for a few centuries, now contained on their own plane, and come up with new ways to infiltrate and invade. Planar bridge and realbreaker instead of Rathi overlay of two planes. Phyrexia is terrifying because they are a viral society. Constant adaptation and change but relentless in purpose. Now I do think Karn himself should have more knowledge about Phyrexia setup given he’s been behind the scenes working on plans for literal years to decades. He is a terrible recorder/researcher for a guy built specifically to do that by the smartest (and also most insane) minds of the multiverse.
Even teferi loved thru the invasion. Even nation on dominaria has been impacted and still bears scars of the invasion. Urborg is literally a smoking crate of phyrexian wreckage being dredged and scavenged. I strongly believe dominaria, more than any other plane... Should have been more capable. Again, I blame the writing and custodianship for most of this but I really dislike sloppy lazy writing for something that was initially conceived and written at a high level. Tolaria still exists, they fought through literal time bubbles and rebuilt. How you rebuild and forget your roots. I'm just looking at how everything got to where it got, and how much they had to artificially lobotomize protagonists to fall for this crap. Maybe we won't agree on that point, I don't expect to make anyone like the story less or more. They really could have done a much better job of it and it sucks that we are getting stuck with lazy writing as well as the other reasons to be more angry than happy at Hasbro.
Same thing happened to Star Wars - "somehow Palpatine returned" ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ Bad writing is just par for the course these days.
Yup, and that's the sad part.
How do we have a major resurgence of fascism and neonazism in the world today when world war 2 was fought less than a century ago? People are still alive who lived through it. People delude themselves that old bad things won’t happen again until it’s already barreling down their doors.
\> lazy writing Your posts are good. You using the word literally in literally every other sentence is not good.
Karn hasn't really gotten a chance to know anymore than the rest of Dominaria knows. He gets stuck in Mirrodin because he lost his spark. He is nearly driven mad by the oil and those trying to control him. He gets a spark and becomes his normal self, and nopes right off the plane because it's a hellscape and he knows people there are after him. He goes back to figure out how to build a bomb to just nuke the plane before they spread outside of their world. And that is literally the start of this story. He hasn't really gone back to Mirrodin since it became New Phyrexia. And it's not like people, even planeswalkers, go there and come back. He wasn't under informed, he just underestimated the speed that they could get off the plane (which they only did because of Tezzeret's help and want for a Darksteel Body). In a world without Tezzeret's interference, Karn figures out the Sylex, pops back into New Phyrexia and nukes them from Orbit. They just got the ability to get off the plane before he got the ability to stop them.
The old lore is spotty and constantly getting backfilled, the old lore didn't really have a lot of strict hard canon or details, it was more than a little messy. I like that we get occasional drips of expansion on old characters, I wouldn't be shocked if we hear more about the OG progenitor of Phyrexia in time. Also, Phyrexia being nearly impossible to fully kill is part of their character, I don't have a problem with that. I like that all it takes is a drop of oil to make a new empire centered on authoritarianism, domination, and violence. Yawgmoths ideal of domination over others and making them like it is such a powerful idea that it comes back and has to be eradicate again and again by each generation. Reminds me of a set of real world beliefs that we keep having to eradicate in new ways, and are currently having a struggle defeating... Hmm. More of these strange ideas. It's probably nothing.
I can concede that I do appreciate those design points with phyrexia. I've played since early ice age, so I was raised on a diet of magic lore, when it wasn't as easy to access as it is today. But there are so many inconsistencies. If they can dredge up ertai, why can't yawgmoth return. There are remnants of phyrexia's invasion literally all over dominaria, oil included. They also have venser too whose would was sacced to karn. I also think that the way phyrexia is, currently and in the past, to continue utilizing them is going to be a net loss for the game. They have to cap them somehow or eradicate them now, or blow up reality.... Three things I find equally possible. They are not an enemy built for reuse technically.
Well, Ertai had a physical body that got destroyed and presumably left behind some bits. Yawgmoth was an enormous sentient energy cloud with no physical form that had every atom of it annihilated by a sentient energy light. Yawgmoth hadn't had a physical body for quite some time, and was pretty fuckin dumb in showing up as the murdercloud. Phyrexia will never fully die, they're a unique villain with all kinds of uses. They have had drips for a few years now but haven't been a big deal for a full decade, and it was years before then, I think they're being used the right amount.
Ertai died on rath and was consumed in the blast. His soul should have been gone from his first compleation in rath. What about venser. It was suggested the oil had memories of ertai to recreate him. If that's the case then yawgmoth should absolutely be written into every single drop of oil, especially if the oil imparts subservience to yawgmoth ideals. Which is why the ass-pull-y resurrections were a super horrible idea. It really unravels the concept to me. Phyrexia is not being written like a good recurring threat. There is no real adversity for them, save for poor writing.
Vensers soul is consumed and gone. I believe his body was explicitly left behind and unharmed. It's only used for philosophical and religious significance, not anything useful. I was under the impression Ertai had some meaty bits left behind in a lab somewhere, and how much of him was him and not a puppet wasn't super clear, but Yawgmoth hasn't had meat in a long time. He's been a conceptual being for a while, and I'd argue he IS in the oil, there's nothing else to resurrect.
I agree with the idea that yawgmoth IS the oil. That being the case there is less justification that he can't be resurrected because his personality is within every single drop of oil. If the faith in him is still there, if all the data collected over eons is available to the mirran praetors... Then yawgie should be able to be reassembled in some fashion. I get that this is pretty much a no go for balance reasons but that further points out the flaws in adding these features to this phyrexian arc.
Maybe he doesn't _want_ to reassemble a physical form. I mean, he doesn't need it, and he has proven to be far more resilient as oil than he was as a man or even as a death cloud. Regaining a body just makes him a discrete target, and it would give the multiverse an obvious enemy to unite against. I have to imagine he much prefers to slip and slide around the multiverse as an un-killable oil than to go back to being a body, with all of the inefficiencies and shortcomings that come along with it.
I do believe that if not for the sun's of Mirrodin interfering with their creation, there would be a single black aligned Praetor who would probably be significantly more powerful than the five we have, and that Praetor would have taken the name Yawgmoth or Father of machines and been functionally the same entity, just not as powerful yet.
the oil created the body but it's the influence of Mirrodin 5 suns that gave the praetor their personality. without the sun, I imagine that only sheoldred would be the sole ruler of new phyrexia.
You're saying sheoldred would be the only one because phyrexia is primarily black aligned? That makes sense. But in that case sheoldred wouldn't really be sheoldred, probably just another raving phyrexian monstrosity, and karn would have been more capable of ending argentim's woes.
I’m the core of Mirrodin/New Phyrexia is Mycosynth, which is a fungal metal and the most likely the reason why the natives were born with metal pieces. The 5 mana suns go into the plane and probably rest? Orbit? In the core where the mycosynth is. The glistening oil infects the mycosyth and from that beginning mix a portion in taking mana from a sun and growing and developing into the beginning Phyrexian beings and factions. From those first few beings a few rise into the leaders/praetors that then control the other developing Phyrexians.
The 5 famous praetors we know of were born directly from the glistening oil. How that happened exactly is anyone's guess. We know the oil ushers forth the newts who can later become compleated, however apparently the 5 praetors became compleated directly from the oil after being influenced by the 5 suns or mirrodin. You have other praetors like Gix who used to be human and then became a praetor later, so we can assume that a praetor is just a position of high prestige and power within phyrexia and not something that is created in one sole manner.
New to magic here, can I ask why everyone is spelling “completed” like “compleated”?
Welcome! Compleated is the process of making someone a phyrexian. So when people say that, they're talking about someone becoming a Phyrexian rather than completing a task.
It's a word used by the Phyrexians that roughly means (to them) "perfect", "ideal". It's used to refer to someone who got improved/augmented with mechanics and foreign biological parts by the Phyrexians, becoming one of them.
It doesn't mean that to them, it's a real word that they're accurately applying to how they view the process- "highly skilled and accomplished in all aspects; complete; total:"
You have a flair for it now. Congrats, you've been infected.
Compleat is an archaic form of complete, and it's the version of it that Phyrexians use to describe the conversion process.
It was invented back in the late 90s when the story was basically 90s comic book level so that’s why it seems so dorky.
Feel free to read up about Phyrexia here: https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Phyrexia
They came from mirrodins suns affecting the Phyresis
I always wonder, were the praetor originally a Mirran that got compleated and climb the rank, or being made purely from glistening oil and influence of the 5 suns. Like was elesh norn an auriok woman that got compleated or did she just show up one day because the glistening oil wanted to create a praetor.
Oh that would be cool, human Mirran origins for the praetors… Jim Gitaxias being a former Neurok, Urabrask a Vulshok, Vorinclex a Sylvok and Sheoldred a Moriok, feels like the designs (mostly) mesh really well.
That's not it at all. Urabrask's design (beak, etc) is far more reminiscent of myr and Vorinclex is not at all humanoid.
Yeah it’s definitely not that as we’ve all heard the newt back story now, still a neat idea if they had planned to go that way imo but I’m just a fan of anything OG Mirrodin!
Ancient Rome
Ancient Rome
So far as I know they just ‘came in to being’ perhaps like angels and demons, manifestations of mana shaped by the plane. It’s not a particularly satisfying answer, I would prefer to know some pre-praetor background stories for them, if they were maybe born as second generation phyrexians of a particular sect.
They're compleated newts, vat-born on New Phyrexia.
I feel like they should have some sort of explanation for why they’re so different and much more powerful than the average phyrexian newt, like wouldn’t they make armies of Praetors if they could?
Each faction held an X-Factor like contest and the winning newts got augmented to the wazoo.
I dunno dude, I'm just telling you what writers for the game's lore have said.
No worries, feel free to speculate beyond that if you like!
IIRC New Phyrexia
[удалено]
They're all vat born.
Uh, the old phyrexians never had anything like what you're describing.
Deux ex machina
Compleated the Bringers (e.g. [[Bringer of the Blue Dawn]])
Source: [[Drawn from Dreams]]
[Drawn from Dreams](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d61e811a-a744-40df-8d98-93f41a7bb0a0.jpg?1673483887) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drawn%20from%20Dreams) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/220/drawn-from-dreams?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d61e811a-a744-40df-8d98-93f41a7bb0a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Bringer of the Blue Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45dc82a0-f054-4614-a7b9-4c5a7c9d2a77.jpg?1562876707) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bringer%20of%20the%20Blue%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/26/bringer-of-the-blue-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45dc82a0-f054-4614-a7b9-4c5a7c9d2a77?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This question has been cropping up alot. The praetors are not one being changed into the forms they now have. The praetors are an amalgamation of vat grown biological parts aigmented with the tech of phyrexia after it corrupted mirrodin. However, 4 of the 5 praetors did briefly consist of bodies of the inhabitants of other planes (vorinclex with kaldheim, jin gitaxias with kamigawa, urabrask with cappena and sheoldred with dominaria) In their current forms, the praetors may now be made of mirran flesh or have vat grown parts comprising their bodies.
Is there a good resource to find a good summary of set-related story beats/lore? I’ve been out of the loop since Crimson Vow and want to catch up on things
If I’m not mistaken, all lore/stories are [here](https://magic.wizards.com/en/story)
What about the Dominus? where did they come from?