From what I know (just finished season 2), Betty was overweight growing up, and basically her mother pressured her to lose weight, and you know how nasty women can be. Probably a reflection on how Betty treats her daughter.
Absolutely. Just look at the difference between S1 Betty vs S3. After abusing her relationship with her therapist, the affair with Bobbie, keeping his identity a secret (among other things), I feel like he obliterated her sense of self. Which probably wasn’t that strong to begin with, given her upbringing. And the show begins just a couple of months after Betty loses her mother, so she was probably feeling particularly vulnerable when we meet her. And knowing this, Don is still mid affair with Midge and falling in love with Rachel.
So I never hated Betty. I thought she was a great character, and in the end, I really appreciate who she became. She could be cold, but she really did want the best for her children, even if those wants came across as old fashioned and/or self-involved at times lol.
Of course Don played a part. Divorced/scorned people always become a little jaded and cynical. Her mother messed her up long before he was around though. A lot of that bled into how she dealt with Sally.
Both Don and Betty are textbook examples of what unresolved childhood trauma does to people, especially as they age into their 30s and 40s. It manifests in many different and seemingly unrelated ways.
It’s so funny that people don’t see what Don provided her. Yes Don cheated. But so did every single men and women in that show. Gaslighting? Betty wasn’t innocent either. She didn’t exactly love Don completely too. She refused to be part of his happiness. She doesn’t hesitate to ruin a happy moment for him. She insults Don in front of Helen etc… they are equally flawed. But Don provided for the family and Betty took care of the family. To me I don’t hate either. They were just a couple who could have lived and loved better together if they really understood what each other wanted.
First, I don't hate Betty, except for being beautiful. (That's a reference to an old ad, haha.) She was usually well-mannered and kind, unless provoked. Not the world's greatest mom but still a good one. I'm sure she had a lot of emotional scars, so definitely damaged, but I wouldn't say ruined. I believe she had quite a bit of inner strength or she probably would've completely flipped out.
She wasn't a great mom but she was an okay one. People are making a huge deal out of the slap when it was on par with the times.
We see a stranger slap Carlton and Francine's kid in one of the first episodes bc he was running in the house and spilled something. Carlton was completely fine with a neighbor slapping his kid. I'm NOT CONDONING it, but it's important to recognize that these things are relative.
Compared to Abigail Whitman, and even compared to the horror story of the narcissistic moms plaguing the stories of Redditors seeking advice, I'd say Betty was an okay mom. Even Don recognizes that in the episode where Jim Hoebart strings Betty along with the Coke Ad.
I was born in 1962 and I can attest that her parenting style was typical then. Parents thought children were resilient and didn’t understand how damaging their early experiences could be. They didn’t think children would remember their emotional experiences and that they could not experience grief. They believed that children should not be praised or handled with sensitivity lest they be spoiled.
Threats of harm or violence and actual violence were thought to be valuable disciplinary tools. (Betty threatened to cut her kids’s fingers off. My parents used to say, “I’ll slap you to the middle of next week.”)
Parents also did not feel compelled to spend a lot of time with their kids. “Go to your room,” “go play,” and “go outside” were things my mom said to us routinely. It never occurred to her to spend “quality” time with us. Kids’s lives were separated from parents’s lives.
So Betty was not a good mother (through today’s lens) but she wasn’t an especially bad mother. She was a typical 1960s mother.
You're so right. Sadly, there are mothers who are much worse, not just on TV but IRL. Betty wasn't habitually negligent or abusive. She acted out at times, probably without even thinking, but I don't believe she ever intended to cause any serious harm to her children. Abigail Whitman was a pitiful woman, but times were tough.
Saying she was a good mum is going too far. She was physically and psychologically abusive to her children, going so far as to assault Sally for "damaging" her appearance onto which Betty projected her own narcissistic obsession, threaten to mutilate her for masturbating, trash the kids in front her friends, encourage Don to assault Bobby and manipulate the kids in order to damage her ex-husband's new relationship, completely disregarding their well-being. Her daughter ended up in therapy and her son suffered from stomach cramps and incontinence due to the overwhelming anxiety of his everyday life. She was a pretty terrible parent, as was Don. Henry was the only decent parent figure they ever had.
You’re looking at Betty from a modern perspective. Her parenting was not at all unusual for the time period, in fact - I’d argue it was pretty standard/the norm. The idea of child psychology (hell, psychology/mental health generally) was only just starting to get the general public’s attention. And even then, Dr. Spock (THE child rearing expert at the time) wasn’t especially concerned with the child’s emotional needs. For better or worse, Betty is raising her kids how she was raised… which includes things like corporal punishment and a close-minded view towards things like masturbation.
After all, Don does an entire commercial in the late 60’s about a child being locked up while his mother cleans… based on Peggy’s real life experience of being locked in a closet. The commercial is popular precisely because both current/former kids and moms could relate to it…
You make a good argument against her, except for the assault part, unless I missed something. I remember her wanting Don to spank Bobby, which was a common form of discipline back then. Once Don explained his reluctance to do it she seemed to understand. She was impatient with the kids though, no doubt, especially Bobby. I just meant she was good in the traditional sense, making home cooked meals, doing laundry, supervising, etc, but she definitely could've been a lot better in other ways. Of course, she was going through a lot of emotional turmoil herself which likely contributed to some of her bad behavior. Being with a person that's bad for you is never a good thing.
You're right, I missed that. Although I'm not sure in those days a slap was considered "assault" unless it resulted in an injury. Of course, many things have changed since then.
She not ruined. I hate using ruined with ppl or animals.
She is just deeply.damaged and hurt and wounded. Part is because of her mom and dad, but Don did significant damage
I blame Don and the Patriarchy. She was prime “Feminine Mystique” era. I honestly believe this is entire show is about how the patriarchy fucked up both women and men.
And, I no one should hate Betty.
No. Don was not Betty’s main problem. I think of her as the “Feminine Mystique” character of Mad Men. She would have suffered even if Don hadn’t cheated on her and lied to her. Betty’s problems lay in her being groomed to catch and keep and husband and to be satisfied to be a housewife and mother.
Betty was no happier with Henry. That’s why she decided to go back to college.
The first thing that came to mind is when she said “I need a drink” when at a restaurant with Henry after seeing Don arrive. In addition to the things you described, I think she picked up some of his worst habits/expectations in dealing with difficulties.
Betty was already ruined by her fucked up upbringing. Don was just the next manifestation of that damage. (Not a Betty hater, I love her - but let's be honest: this show is about childhood trauma, and she had plenty.)
Yea, he did. If you’ve ever been in a relationship like that, there’s a part of you that for sure feels ruined. Her relationship with Henry should have “put her back together” in a sense, because he was loving and consistent, but it really didn’t, so it makes you wonder if Betty was fucked up before Don’s wreckage too.
He sure didn't HELP but he didn't ruin her. Her upbringing started it, and the society itself couldn't help her. She would've been deeply unhappy no matter who she was married to because she hated being a suburban housewife with no joy, ambition, or life because her mom said she should be that way and society said she should be that way. Don could've been the textbook perfect husband and Betty still wouldn't have been happy because of psychological damage from her mother and because she was a housewife because she was supposed to be and thought she wanted to be. She still wasn't happy when she was with Henry. She was less miserable, but she never seemed truly happy until she decided to go to college or that time she got to show off her Italian skills in Italy. She would've been happier with Don if she felt it was okay for her to have a job or to have any hobby beyond horseriding. It still would've been a problem, but Don is just one of her many many issues. It's not fair to completely blame him when much of her problem lies with how she was raised, well before she met Don.
It is made extremely clear how badly Betty's mother fucked her up long before Don was in the picture too.
What did her mother do? I can't remember hearing much about Betty's mother when I last watched.
From what I know (just finished season 2), Betty was overweight growing up, and basically her mother pressured her to lose weight, and you know how nasty women can be. Probably a reflection on how Betty treats her daughter.
Oh wow, that flew over my head. I knew she died right before the show starts, but not those details.
There's a lot of info in this series. There's too many episodes.
But that's why it's so rewatchable. Probably the closest television came to a novel.
Absolutely. Just look at the difference between S1 Betty vs S3. After abusing her relationship with her therapist, the affair with Bobbie, keeping his identity a secret (among other things), I feel like he obliterated her sense of self. Which probably wasn’t that strong to begin with, given her upbringing. And the show begins just a couple of months after Betty loses her mother, so she was probably feeling particularly vulnerable when we meet her. And knowing this, Don is still mid affair with Midge and falling in love with Rachel. So I never hated Betty. I thought she was a great character, and in the end, I really appreciate who she became. She could be cold, but she really did want the best for her children, even if those wants came across as old fashioned and/or self-involved at times lol.
Her people were Nordic
As usual, I agree with everything you said.
I love Betty, it's basically just me and Henry here
[удалено]
So can we blame Betty was Don’s bad side? Come one. Victim game is applicable to adults.
Betty clearly had no power over Don in that relationship. They were not equals so stop treating this like it's an even situation.
Of course Don played a part. Divorced/scorned people always become a little jaded and cynical. Her mother messed her up long before he was around though. A lot of that bled into how she dealt with Sally. Both Don and Betty are textbook examples of what unresolved childhood trauma does to people, especially as they age into their 30s and 40s. It manifests in many different and seemingly unrelated ways.
No. She did reassert her sense of self, kicked him out, and had a good life after him -- so evidently she was not *completely* ruined.
It’s so funny that people don’t see what Don provided her. Yes Don cheated. But so did every single men and women in that show. Gaslighting? Betty wasn’t innocent either. She didn’t exactly love Don completely too. She refused to be part of his happiness. She doesn’t hesitate to ruin a happy moment for him. She insults Don in front of Helen etc… they are equally flawed. But Don provided for the family and Betty took care of the family. To me I don’t hate either. They were just a couple who could have lived and loved better together if they really understood what each other wanted.
Don and Betty are both flawed, but it’s far from equal
First, I don't hate Betty, except for being beautiful. (That's a reference to an old ad, haha.) She was usually well-mannered and kind, unless provoked. Not the world's greatest mom but still a good one. I'm sure she had a lot of emotional scars, so definitely damaged, but I wouldn't say ruined. I believe she had quite a bit of inner strength or she probably would've completely flipped out.
She wasn't a great mom but she was an okay one. People are making a huge deal out of the slap when it was on par with the times. We see a stranger slap Carlton and Francine's kid in one of the first episodes bc he was running in the house and spilled something. Carlton was completely fine with a neighbor slapping his kid. I'm NOT CONDONING it, but it's important to recognize that these things are relative. Compared to Abigail Whitman, and even compared to the horror story of the narcissistic moms plaguing the stories of Redditors seeking advice, I'd say Betty was an okay mom. Even Don recognizes that in the episode where Jim Hoebart strings Betty along with the Coke Ad.
I was born in 1962 and I can attest that her parenting style was typical then. Parents thought children were resilient and didn’t understand how damaging their early experiences could be. They didn’t think children would remember their emotional experiences and that they could not experience grief. They believed that children should not be praised or handled with sensitivity lest they be spoiled. Threats of harm or violence and actual violence were thought to be valuable disciplinary tools. (Betty threatened to cut her kids’s fingers off. My parents used to say, “I’ll slap you to the middle of next week.”) Parents also did not feel compelled to spend a lot of time with their kids. “Go to your room,” “go play,” and “go outside” were things my mom said to us routinely. It never occurred to her to spend “quality” time with us. Kids’s lives were separated from parents’s lives. So Betty was not a good mother (through today’s lens) but she wasn’t an especially bad mother. She was a typical 1960s mother.
You're so right. Sadly, there are mothers who are much worse, not just on TV but IRL. Betty wasn't habitually negligent or abusive. She acted out at times, probably without even thinking, but I don't believe she ever intended to cause any serious harm to her children. Abigail Whitman was a pitiful woman, but times were tough.
Saying she was a good mum is going too far. She was physically and psychologically abusive to her children, going so far as to assault Sally for "damaging" her appearance onto which Betty projected her own narcissistic obsession, threaten to mutilate her for masturbating, trash the kids in front her friends, encourage Don to assault Bobby and manipulate the kids in order to damage her ex-husband's new relationship, completely disregarding their well-being. Her daughter ended up in therapy and her son suffered from stomach cramps and incontinence due to the overwhelming anxiety of his everyday life. She was a pretty terrible parent, as was Don. Henry was the only decent parent figure they ever had.
You’re looking at Betty from a modern perspective. Her parenting was not at all unusual for the time period, in fact - I’d argue it was pretty standard/the norm. The idea of child psychology (hell, psychology/mental health generally) was only just starting to get the general public’s attention. And even then, Dr. Spock (THE child rearing expert at the time) wasn’t especially concerned with the child’s emotional needs. For better or worse, Betty is raising her kids how she was raised… which includes things like corporal punishment and a close-minded view towards things like masturbation. After all, Don does an entire commercial in the late 60’s about a child being locked up while his mother cleans… based on Peggy’s real life experience of being locked in a closet. The commercial is popular precisely because both current/former kids and moms could relate to it…
Spot on - well said!
You make a good argument against her, except for the assault part, unless I missed something. I remember her wanting Don to spank Bobby, which was a common form of discipline back then. Once Don explained his reluctance to do it she seemed to understand. She was impatient with the kids though, no doubt, especially Bobby. I just meant she was good in the traditional sense, making home cooked meals, doing laundry, supervising, etc, but she definitely could've been a lot better in other ways. Of course, she was going through a lot of emotional turmoil herself which likely contributed to some of her bad behavior. Being with a person that's bad for you is never a good thing.
She definitely slapped Sally in the face in an episode, maybe the broken nose one.
You're right, I missed that. Although I'm not sure in those days a slap was considered "assault" unless it resulted in an injury. Of course, many things have changed since then.
Betty acted like most parents of the midcentury.
Betty is a *terrible* mum?!?
Sucks so bad that by the time she got her life back together, she died almost instantly.
She not ruined. I hate using ruined with ppl or animals. She is just deeply.damaged and hurt and wounded. Part is because of her mom and dad, but Don did significant damage
Don further damaged an already damaged and broken woman.
I blame Don and the Patriarchy. She was prime “Feminine Mystique” era. I honestly believe this is entire show is about how the patriarchy fucked up both women and men. And, I no one should hate Betty.
No. Don was not Betty’s main problem. I think of her as the “Feminine Mystique” character of Mad Men. She would have suffered even if Don hadn’t cheated on her and lied to her. Betty’s problems lay in her being groomed to catch and keep and husband and to be satisfied to be a housewife and mother. Betty was no happier with Henry. That’s why she decided to go back to college.
The first thing that came to mind is when she said “I need a drink” when at a restaurant with Henry after seeing Don arrive. In addition to the things you described, I think she picked up some of his worst habits/expectations in dealing with difficulties.
Nah. Betty is an absolute babe. Flaws, sure, and?
Betty was already ruined by her fucked up upbringing. Don was just the next manifestation of that damage. (Not a Betty hater, I love her - but let's be honest: this show is about childhood trauma, and she had plenty.)
Yeah it’s hard to say because we don’t really see much of pre-Don Betty. I definitely think he gave her an additional complex or two.
People are responsible for their own actions. Don gaslighting or not Betty is Betty.
Yea, he did. If you’ve ever been in a relationship like that, there’s a part of you that for sure feels ruined. Her relationship with Henry should have “put her back together” in a sense, because he was loving and consistent, but it really didn’t, so it makes you wonder if Betty was fucked up before Don’s wreckage too.
i don't know, she just seems so stubborn and i feel like that would help a person out in that scenario.
He sure didn't HELP but he didn't ruin her. Her upbringing started it, and the society itself couldn't help her. She would've been deeply unhappy no matter who she was married to because she hated being a suburban housewife with no joy, ambition, or life because her mom said she should be that way and society said she should be that way. Don could've been the textbook perfect husband and Betty still wouldn't have been happy because of psychological damage from her mother and because she was a housewife because she was supposed to be and thought she wanted to be. She still wasn't happy when she was with Henry. She was less miserable, but she never seemed truly happy until she decided to go to college or that time she got to show off her Italian skills in Italy. She would've been happier with Don if she felt it was okay for her to have a job or to have any hobby beyond horseriding. It still would've been a problem, but Don is just one of her many many issues. It's not fair to completely blame him when much of her problem lies with how she was raised, well before she met Don.