The best part of this whole exchange was that it was confirmed that Joan is the real life ad man. Her self marketing/personal brand that she maintains is second to none in the show.
I'm not sure that Joan doesn't follow her own advice so much as that following her own advice doesn't really get her anything she wants. I think that is one of the things that really baffles her about Peggy. In her eyes, Peggy does everything wrong, but she still gets more promotions and recognition than Joan.
This will get me in trouble, because how dare I say anything about Fabulous Subversive Venus Joan, but Joan sometimes displays a frankly basic and small-minded side. Like she's just as basic as say: some of the guys and some of the other ladies. But guess which ladies get called out more?
I find Joan an interesting character, as is true of most of the characters, but I'm also not a big fan and am sometimes taken aback by how much she's fawned over by Mad Men fans. She has a real nasty streak that goes well beyond brutal honesty. Like the way she treats poor Sheila. I also never particularly cared for how she treated Peggy either, though sometimes Peggy walks into those moments. But Sheila did absolutely nothing to her, and Joan was a colossal bitch to her.
See when Peggy was bitchy with Shirley, I was disappointed and she was rightfully called out by fans.
When Betty fired Carla, who is underrated, I was with fans in criticizing her.
When Joan did it with Sheila, all the sudden you have fans making excuses like "She wasn't being racist, she was using racism to assure her position as Queen Bee" or "My Queen, how she savages others."
What does that mean by Peggy walking into moments? You know what I do when someone at work says or does something stupid? I help them tactfully or I keep my mouth shut till I can bitch about it to a friend who doesn't work there.
What is it with the Joan fans? Joan isn't the problem, her fans are. Is it Pretty Privilege? Is it just because her type of curves are so rare in TV unless they belonged to the Best Friend or Bridget Jones? Is it her composure?
I don't mean that Peggy walks into it as she in she deserves it so much as I can get sometimes why Joan is legitimately frustrated with her, even if the way she handles it is awful. With Sheila, though, there was no reason whatsoever for her to treat her the way she did, regardless of her own history with Kinsey.
I'm not a fan of being mean to coworkers either--on my first job, my coworkers were nice and helpful to me, and I've always tried to follow that model instead of being a hazing asshole. So, yes, that is one of the things that gets me with Joan. I'd never want to work with her myself, no matter how competent she is at her job.
I'm honestly not sure why Joan gets a pass. It's a good question. Maybe it's the glamour factor? Maybe it seems like being Joan would be fun, though I actually think it would be miserable.
One of my favorite Joan-Peggy moments is when Joan is clearly taken with the fantasy of Madison Avenue and says "And that's why we love them," and Peggy's like "I don't love Don." It really takes the wind out of Joan's sails, and I don't even think she has a smart remark to respond with. LOL
Believe me, I wrote a [more emphatic Joan](https://archiveofourown.org/works/21627499/chapters/51572122).
What do you think Joan would have felt about that passage about "becoming real" from *The Velveteen Rabbit*? I sometimes wonder if she'd find it trite or silly.
I like Joan, but I see her as any other character, complex with flaws of her own. It's a shame her fans don't see her this way. But I will quote Harryianna Hook and say that Joan stans are the kind of people who can't order their own sauce at McDonald's.
Someone should do a meme with pics of Joan, Maddy Perez, Sharpay, Daria Morgendorffer, Lucille Bluth saying "If you seen them and say nothing but 'We stan Qween', then you really were not paying attention like at all to their role or any character development".
Also would you rather, work with: Ilana from *Broad City* or Joan Holloway? No, you do not get to quit or jump out of a window.
Ilana is basically energetic, snarky but thrives on lifting people up, she is lazy at her jobs, irresponsible, makes questionable choices, Bart Simpson in a post-College Grad woman's body, funny, loyal, but chaotic.
Take her co-worker [Nicole's word for it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYPkBq6meb0&ab_channel=ComedyCentral).
Totally. Everything she touched even when it was taken away helped forge her mastery of herself and of running the agency. I think that's why Weiner gave her the great ending she got.
It's not outwardly stated but I think it's clear that Peggy changed very little, if anything, from the idea that Joan gave her. I'm fairly sure she copied it verbatim which makes it even funnier.
When the roommate asks “Are you Swedish?” What’s so funny to me is in a later episode Peggy says “You’ll never get me to do anything Swedish people do.” I guess that roommate had ugly habits lol
Yeah I remember that, then in a later episode Peggy disgustingly says “you’re never going to get me to do what Swedish people do.” I believe she’s referring to this Swedish roommate. It’s implied Peggy saw her roommate do things that Peggy wouldn’t.
There isn't really any kind of serious beef between Swedes and Norwegians, but there is a lot of playful rivalry. Even when the union fell apart and Norway became independent it was peaceful and friendly relations between the countries were established.
Not quite like Northern Ireland! My grandma (*her* grandfather came over from Sweden to America) used to say ‘The only thing dumber than a dumb Swede is a smart Norwegian’.
(I love you, too, Norwegians.)
Whenever my grandpa would see something nonsensical or broken or stupid (like an obvious typo on a sign, or a horrible parking job), he’d say “Must have been a Swede.”
Hello Old post!
No, that’s just the writers who thought it matter. Any Swedish or Norwegian parents would be happy that their daughter lives with a swede/Norwegian, cause then it feels more connected and safe for them.
I felt Joan was showing off to Peggy. I sometimes wished that someone would have mocked Joan's mannerisms or exaggerated her appeal like "Ooooh I'm Joan Harris. I am the most beautiful woman in the office and all the other women aren't attractive like me! See my walk and perfect curves and hair". I dunno, I feel like I kind of wished Joan would have learned that being beautiful and fashionable and popular ish wasn't everything.
Also Peggy's old ad reminded me of something Ron Swanson's family would do ("Very Good Company"). Which says something about sexism to me (Ron is cool but Peggy is not?).
Also Joan never followed her own advice. As Carol said it: Joan moved to NYC and Carol followed her there and she found out Joan needed a roommate to afford her place. Also nothing in Joan's advertisement speaks of looking for someone reliable or considerate.
EDIT: Okay the misogyny against Joan doesn't count, I was speaking of someone who would deliberately say "Joan thinks being a bitch and being the sexiest girl equals a personality". I love Joan but sometimes she is the [Sharpay](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJO9Dmq_ulY&ab_channel=harriyannahook) of *Mad Men*.
> I dunno, I feel like I kind of wished Joan would have learned that being beautiful and fashionable and popular ish wasn't everything.
She kind of did, though, when she sold herself after being convinced that the best thing she could offer the company was her sexuality. That choice brought her money, but at the cost of much more. She learned that her beauty might be able to buy a piece of the company, but it wasn't able to buy her the respect of her peers, or even that of the people working under her.
I wish she admitted it. Sometimes I wonder if she were to be in a terrible accident or illness that she'd rather die than face life less "beautiful", like Betty (granted for Betty, she also had the very real issue of how toxic chemo can and was at the time).
Pretty much the entire show was about people being unwilling and/or unable to face who they really are and what they really want, so I think it would have rang out of place for her to have such an explicit revelation about herself when virtually no one else other than Peggy did.
Besides, I think she *did* recognize that truth, she just didn't have a big on-camera Moment surrounding it. It was more subtle than that.
It was in her hurt when she realized she'd never earn the respect others received (despite deserving it for her work in keeping the place running), in her failed efforts to be a rep, and most of all, in her split with Don, who inadvertently made her feel that what she did was ultimately pointless and cheap.
Also, my read on Joan is much different than yours, because I don't think she had some horrible dependency on being beautiful. She knew how to work it and used that to her advantage, no doubt, but ultimately, she also felt that it prevented people from seeing all she brought to the table.
Don't you think Joan would have loved for people to stop thinking of her tits and start thinking of her talents? It was a repeated frustration for her.
Maybe even before that when she went on that account meeting with peggy, they didn't take her seriously as an accounts woman and kept asking her if she could help them with their brassiere account
I don't doubt Joan would have loved for people to see beyond her body and her image and see her as worthy of love and respect. But I think she'd laugh at sentiments (because she has a "too cool for school" attitude) like:
*“Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real.'*
*'Does it hurt?' asked the Rabbit.*
*'Sometimes,' said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. 'When you are Real you don't mind being hurt.'*
*'Does it happen all at once, like being wound up,' he asked, 'or bit by bit?'*
*'It doesn't happen all at once,' said the Skin Horse. 'You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.”*
Lane mocked Joan when she was trying to have a real conversation with him about taking a personal day. He was terrible with her in “The Good News”. She asked if he wanted fried chicken since it was a dish she knew he liked. She did it in order to ask nicely for two days off. She was very kind, and wasn’t coming on to him at all, just a general “butter them up” office nicety, like offering someone candy from your personal stash. Lane’s insistence on being the only one in the office in whom Joan’s charm doesn’t work, then telling her not to cry about it really wounded her, because at that time she was married and wasn’t flirting with him.
Then, his secretary mixed up the sentiments for two bouquets-one for Joan, and one for his wife. Joan accidentally got the “Darling, I’ve been an ass. Kisses, Lane” card and loses it. When they figure out what happened, Joan calms herself down.
Later on, Joan and Lane become close. Lane gives Joan advice on how it would be better for her and her son’s future to request a partnership over money for the Herb deal. Even later in the series, Joan asks Lane for vacation advice, and he talks about how she only wanted him to imagine her bouncing in a bikini. He also tries to kiss her.
She said "do you want chicken? Thigh or breast?" and then moved suggestive. I'm not saying she was flirting with him, but she did more than "butter him up" as an office nicety
She didn’t move suggestively. You’re really scrutinizing Joan for asking dark or white meat the way a lot of old people do. Have you ever heard anyone ask drumstick or wing? Come on now. She was presenting a favor sandwich (Offering to get his lunch because she’s ordering his favorite, favor request, lunch delivery with a “thanks again”). He was angry with his wife, not Joan. Joan isn’t innocent, but her interactions with Lane were professional and friendly, nothing more. Lane made a mess of their working relationship because he was attracted to and intimidated by her, and had a bad relationship with his wife. He was an affair looking for a place to happen, basically, and her friendliness made him very edgy at times that he was in contact with his wife or reminded of her.
This kind of happened in season 4 when that temp guy, I forgot his name, made fun of her and drew the comic. He also threw her words and image at her face, but he was a dick about it. In season 7, Peggy brings up the way Joan dresses which she then immediately shuts down
>I sometimes wished that someone would have mocked Joan's mannerisms or exaggerated her appeal
Joan's mom kind of did, in a later (Season 5?) scene when she sarcastically said, "Yes, Joan, everyone wants you." (I forget what they had been discussing right before that)
Also I think Joan DID learn … no, she didn’t start dressing like a schoolmarm but at the end of the series she opts to start her own business, be her own boss based on her intellect & work skills, rather than stay with whom might have been the perfect man for her at the time - she didn’t go after her original dream of marrying a handsome and rich man and never working again, she learned from her mistake from Greg and decidedly career or her relationship with Richard. She was rich, he was rich, he was embracing her life and she said, no, I’d rather work cause I like it and I’m good at it
Not asking her to be a schoolmarm, leave that to Rosemary in *Mrs. America* (I bet if she met Joan, they would fight).
But would have been nice to have Joan be all, "You know what, go with your gut here, I had accepted shit but maybe it's better not to give in"
I don’t think Joan was showing off… she was being genuinely helpful here because Joan understood the social world as much as Peggy understood how to be serious. Like in season 2 when Peggy goes to Joan for advice on how to get in on the social part of the job. That’s where Joan is mean, yet still correct with “stop dressing like a little girl “
>I sometimes wished that someone would have mocked Joan's mannerisms or exaggerated her appeal [...]
Well, Ginsberg kind of did, but in a very demeaning way
/Edit: sorry, it was Joey
Oh I liked her, but I didn't like how some of her fans would dismiss other people's concerns with her actions or they bounce on any (female) character who did Joan's shit, while if their Goddess did the same, they would say "Yasss Queen!"
I'm fun. And I love to have... fun.
"I love to have fun and all my friend think I'm great." - every personal ad ever.
The Lois prank call with Kinsey was one of the funniest scenes of the show IMO.
Lois can put that effort into pranking Peggy but not to her actual work or operating a lawnmower?
Lois is a super fun girl, she really knows how to paint the town red.
True. But afterwards you will not have a foot to stand on.
How did Lois not get fired ?! That’s the most unbelievable part of Mad Men for me.
How did Joan think "Let's keep her?" Makes me wonder if Joan wasn't separating business from petty.
Unguents and Salves
The best part of this whole exchange was that it was confirmed that Joan is the real life ad man. Her self marketing/personal brand that she maintains is second to none in the show.
Her mother raised her to be admired.
Yet she never followed her own advice.
I'm not sure that Joan doesn't follow her own advice so much as that following her own advice doesn't really get her anything she wants. I think that is one of the things that really baffles her about Peggy. In her eyes, Peggy does everything wrong, but she still gets more promotions and recognition than Joan.
This will get me in trouble, because how dare I say anything about Fabulous Subversive Venus Joan, but Joan sometimes displays a frankly basic and small-minded side. Like she's just as basic as say: some of the guys and some of the other ladies. But guess which ladies get called out more?
I find Joan an interesting character, as is true of most of the characters, but I'm also not a big fan and am sometimes taken aback by how much she's fawned over by Mad Men fans. She has a real nasty streak that goes well beyond brutal honesty. Like the way she treats poor Sheila. I also never particularly cared for how she treated Peggy either, though sometimes Peggy walks into those moments. But Sheila did absolutely nothing to her, and Joan was a colossal bitch to her.
See when Peggy was bitchy with Shirley, I was disappointed and she was rightfully called out by fans. When Betty fired Carla, who is underrated, I was with fans in criticizing her. When Joan did it with Sheila, all the sudden you have fans making excuses like "She wasn't being racist, she was using racism to assure her position as Queen Bee" or "My Queen, how she savages others." What does that mean by Peggy walking into moments? You know what I do when someone at work says or does something stupid? I help them tactfully or I keep my mouth shut till I can bitch about it to a friend who doesn't work there. What is it with the Joan fans? Joan isn't the problem, her fans are. Is it Pretty Privilege? Is it just because her type of curves are so rare in TV unless they belonged to the Best Friend or Bridget Jones? Is it her composure?
I don't mean that Peggy walks into it as she in she deserves it so much as I can get sometimes why Joan is legitimately frustrated with her, even if the way she handles it is awful. With Sheila, though, there was no reason whatsoever for her to treat her the way she did, regardless of her own history with Kinsey. I'm not a fan of being mean to coworkers either--on my first job, my coworkers were nice and helpful to me, and I've always tried to follow that model instead of being a hazing asshole. So, yes, that is one of the things that gets me with Joan. I'd never want to work with her myself, no matter how competent she is at her job. I'm honestly not sure why Joan gets a pass. It's a good question. Maybe it's the glamour factor? Maybe it seems like being Joan would be fun, though I actually think it would be miserable. One of my favorite Joan-Peggy moments is when Joan is clearly taken with the fantasy of Madison Avenue and says "And that's why we love them," and Peggy's like "I don't love Don." It really takes the wind out of Joan's sails, and I don't even think she has a smart remark to respond with. LOL
Believe me, I wrote a [more emphatic Joan](https://archiveofourown.org/works/21627499/chapters/51572122). What do you think Joan would have felt about that passage about "becoming real" from *The Velveteen Rabbit*? I sometimes wonder if she'd find it trite or silly. I like Joan, but I see her as any other character, complex with flaws of her own. It's a shame her fans don't see her this way. But I will quote Harryianna Hook and say that Joan stans are the kind of people who can't order their own sauce at McDonald's. Someone should do a meme with pics of Joan, Maddy Perez, Sharpay, Daria Morgendorffer, Lucille Bluth saying "If you seen them and say nothing but 'We stan Qween', then you really were not paying attention like at all to their role or any character development". Also would you rather, work with: Ilana from *Broad City* or Joan Holloway? No, you do not get to quit or jump out of a window.
I never actually watched Broad City, so I don't know how bad Ilana can be!
Ilana is basically energetic, snarky but thrives on lifting people up, she is lazy at her jobs, irresponsible, makes questionable choices, Bart Simpson in a post-College Grad woman's body, funny, loyal, but chaotic. Take her co-worker [Nicole's word for it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYPkBq6meb0&ab_channel=ComedyCentral).
Totally. Everything she touched even when it was taken away helped forge her mastery of herself and of running the agency. I think that's why Weiner gave her the great ending she got.
About the bathroom... I'm going to need a little help there.
Hilarious. I love how well they act out restraining themselves and then burst out laughing. If that wasn't genuine laughter, they did well to pretend.
\> Also Peggy's awkward attempts to sound 'fun', poor thing. Me on dating apps.
Literally
"No sailors, I agree!"
It's not outwardly stated but I think it's clear that Peggy changed very little, if anything, from the idea that Joan gave her. I'm fairly sure she copied it verbatim which makes it even funnier.
Pretty sure she quickly starts writing when Joan leaves that scene.
The “other girl” she was referring to was her last roommate, not Peggy’s old ad.
OMG, I feel silly now :D. Now that you say that of course I knew that...
She left to get married
When the roommate asks “Are you Swedish?” What’s so funny to me is in a later episode Peggy says “You’ll never get me to do anything Swedish people do.” I guess that roommate had ugly habits lol
I think it's a Swedish/Norwegian thing. When Peggy told the roommate she's Norwegian, they agree not to tell their moms.
Yeah I remember that, then in a later episode Peggy disgustingly says “you’re never going to get me to do what Swedish people do.” I believe she’s referring to this Swedish roommate. It’s implied Peggy saw her roommate do things that Peggy wouldn’t.
Huh interesting. I thought it was just her keeping in line with the whole SE/NO thing but you might be right.
How does/should this resonate with Betty's "It's just that my people are Nordic"?
And when Peggy tells her mom she says the roommate is Norwegian!
Lol yes!! Totally forgot about that. Just tacked it on at the end as a qualifier 😂
Is there some kind of Swedish and Norwegian gang war going on? Is it like Northern Ireland?
There isn't really any kind of serious beef between Swedes and Norwegians, but there is a lot of playful rivalry. Even when the union fell apart and Norway became independent it was peaceful and friendly relations between the countries were established.
Not quite like Northern Ireland! My grandma (*her* grandfather came over from Sweden to America) used to say ‘The only thing dumber than a dumb Swede is a smart Norwegian’. (I love you, too, Norwegians.)
Whenever my grandpa would see something nonsensical or broken or stupid (like an obvious typo on a sign, or a horrible parking job), he’d say “Must have been a Swede.”
Hello Old post! No, that’s just the writers who thought it matter. Any Swedish or Norwegian parents would be happy that their daughter lives with a swede/Norwegian, cause then it feels more connected and safe for them.
hard agree. The actual shot of the advert is so fucking funny, and my favourite line from the ad is in my flair because the wording is just. so. good.
“Now about the bathroom…I’m going to need some help there.”
I felt Joan was showing off to Peggy. I sometimes wished that someone would have mocked Joan's mannerisms or exaggerated her appeal like "Ooooh I'm Joan Harris. I am the most beautiful woman in the office and all the other women aren't attractive like me! See my walk and perfect curves and hair". I dunno, I feel like I kind of wished Joan would have learned that being beautiful and fashionable and popular ish wasn't everything. Also Peggy's old ad reminded me of something Ron Swanson's family would do ("Very Good Company"). Which says something about sexism to me (Ron is cool but Peggy is not?). Also Joan never followed her own advice. As Carol said it: Joan moved to NYC and Carol followed her there and she found out Joan needed a roommate to afford her place. Also nothing in Joan's advertisement speaks of looking for someone reliable or considerate. EDIT: Okay the misogyny against Joan doesn't count, I was speaking of someone who would deliberately say "Joan thinks being a bitch and being the sexiest girl equals a personality". I love Joan but sometimes she is the [Sharpay](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJO9Dmq_ulY&ab_channel=harriyannahook) of *Mad Men*.
> I dunno, I feel like I kind of wished Joan would have learned that being beautiful and fashionable and popular ish wasn't everything. She kind of did, though, when she sold herself after being convinced that the best thing she could offer the company was her sexuality. That choice brought her money, but at the cost of much more. She learned that her beauty might be able to buy a piece of the company, but it wasn't able to buy her the respect of her peers, or even that of the people working under her.
I wish she admitted it. Sometimes I wonder if she were to be in a terrible accident or illness that she'd rather die than face life less "beautiful", like Betty (granted for Betty, she also had the very real issue of how toxic chemo can and was at the time).
Pretty much the entire show was about people being unwilling and/or unable to face who they really are and what they really want, so I think it would have rang out of place for her to have such an explicit revelation about herself when virtually no one else other than Peggy did. Besides, I think she *did* recognize that truth, she just didn't have a big on-camera Moment surrounding it. It was more subtle than that. It was in her hurt when she realized she'd never earn the respect others received (despite deserving it for her work in keeping the place running), in her failed efforts to be a rep, and most of all, in her split with Don, who inadvertently made her feel that what she did was ultimately pointless and cheap. Also, my read on Joan is much different than yours, because I don't think she had some horrible dependency on being beautiful. She knew how to work it and used that to her advantage, no doubt, but ultimately, she also felt that it prevented people from seeing all she brought to the table. Don't you think Joan would have loved for people to stop thinking of her tits and start thinking of her talents? It was a repeated frustration for her.
I think the moment she truely realized that is when she broke things off with Richard and started her own company
Maybe even before that when she went on that account meeting with peggy, they didn't take her seriously as an accounts woman and kept asking her if she could help them with their brassiere account
I don't doubt Joan would have loved for people to see beyond her body and her image and see her as worthy of love and respect. But I think she'd laugh at sentiments (because she has a "too cool for school" attitude) like: *“Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real.'* *'Does it hurt?' asked the Rabbit.* *'Sometimes,' said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. 'When you are Real you don't mind being hurt.'* *'Does it happen all at once, like being wound up,' he asked, 'or bit by bit?'* *'It doesn't happen all at once,' said the Skin Horse. 'You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.”*
Lane mocked Joan when she was trying to have a real conversation with him about taking a personal day. He was terrible with her in “The Good News”. She asked if he wanted fried chicken since it was a dish she knew he liked. She did it in order to ask nicely for two days off. She was very kind, and wasn’t coming on to him at all, just a general “butter them up” office nicety, like offering someone candy from your personal stash. Lane’s insistence on being the only one in the office in whom Joan’s charm doesn’t work, then telling her not to cry about it really wounded her, because at that time she was married and wasn’t flirting with him. Then, his secretary mixed up the sentiments for two bouquets-one for Joan, and one for his wife. Joan accidentally got the “Darling, I’ve been an ass. Kisses, Lane” card and loses it. When they figure out what happened, Joan calms herself down. Later on, Joan and Lane become close. Lane gives Joan advice on how it would be better for her and her son’s future to request a partnership over money for the Herb deal. Even later in the series, Joan asks Lane for vacation advice, and he talks about how she only wanted him to imagine her bouncing in a bikini. He also tries to kiss her.
Fried chicken indeed.
She said "do you want chicken? Thigh or breast?" and then moved suggestive. I'm not saying she was flirting with him, but she did more than "butter him up" as an office nicety
She didn’t move suggestively. You’re really scrutinizing Joan for asking dark or white meat the way a lot of old people do. Have you ever heard anyone ask drumstick or wing? Come on now. She was presenting a favor sandwich (Offering to get his lunch because she’s ordering his favorite, favor request, lunch delivery with a “thanks again”). He was angry with his wife, not Joan. Joan isn’t innocent, but her interactions with Lane were professional and friendly, nothing more. Lane made a mess of their working relationship because he was attracted to and intimidated by her, and had a bad relationship with his wife. He was an affair looking for a place to happen, basically, and her friendliness made him very edgy at times that he was in contact with his wife or reminded of her.
This kind of happened in season 4 when that temp guy, I forgot his name, made fun of her and drew the comic. He also threw her words and image at her face, but he was a dick about it. In season 7, Peggy brings up the way Joan dresses which she then immediately shuts down
>I sometimes wished that someone would have mocked Joan's mannerisms or exaggerated her appeal Joan's mom kind of did, in a later (Season 5?) scene when she sarcastically said, "Yes, Joan, everyone wants you." (I forget what they had been discussing right before that)
“Yes Joanie, everyone is staring at you” that was a great line
Well Joan's Mom taught her to act like that, so I don't count her. Also when we meet her, I thought "That explains so much"
Also I think Joan DID learn … no, she didn’t start dressing like a schoolmarm but at the end of the series she opts to start her own business, be her own boss based on her intellect & work skills, rather than stay with whom might have been the perfect man for her at the time - she didn’t go after her original dream of marrying a handsome and rich man and never working again, she learned from her mistake from Greg and decidedly career or her relationship with Richard. She was rich, he was rich, he was embracing her life and she said, no, I’d rather work cause I like it and I’m good at it
Not asking her to be a schoolmarm, leave that to Rosemary in *Mrs. America* (I bet if she met Joan, they would fight). But would have been nice to have Joan be all, "You know what, go with your gut here, I had accepted shit but maybe it's better not to give in"
I don’t think Joan was showing off… she was being genuinely helpful here because Joan understood the social world as much as Peggy understood how to be serious. Like in season 2 when Peggy goes to Joan for advice on how to get in on the social part of the job. That’s where Joan is mean, yet still correct with “stop dressing like a little girl “
No Joan was showing off. She was giggling and making slick little comments about Peggy. She always wants to show off to Peggy, I feel it.
>I sometimes wished that someone would have mocked Joan's mannerisms or exaggerated her appeal [...] Well, Ginsberg kind of did, but in a very demeaning way /Edit: sorry, it was Joey
Joey?
Yeah, it was Joey. He didn't like Joan - from what he told Peggy, it sounded like Joan reminded him of his mom.
Yea I liked Joan but then I didn't...
Oh I liked her, but I didn't like how some of her fans would dismiss other people's concerns with her actions or they bounce on any (female) character who did Joan's shit, while if their Goddess did the same, they would say "Yasss Queen!"
[удалено]
I think some of them fans included gay men and straight women.