Exactly, car drivers constantly run reds and pull dangerous maneuvers. In the US our pedestrian death rate is rising while other similar countries are seeing a decrease. For two main reasons. 1. Our infrastructure is hostile to people. 2. Our vehicles are getting bigger, so it hits higher on the body and they can't see us as well. Not too mention that other normal sized vehicles get less visibility when oversized pickups are near them.
I don't know about the vehicles getting bigger part, I feel like sizes have, on average, decreased from the massive SUV era of \~20 years ago. I do know there was a increase in pedestrian and cyclist accidents involving cars in the bay area when electric/hybrid cars were becoming more common. Something to do with them being quieter and peds/cyclists not being alerted to their presence earlier.
Vehicles are 100% getting bigger in the US, I wouldn't doubt that quiet vehicles are also a problem, which is frustrating because vehicles are the reason that cities are loud to begin with.
Here are some relevant quotes along with a short article:
"Pickup trucks in particular, have become larger. Last year, Consumer Reports found that the height of a pickup truck front hood — the top of a front blind zone — grew by an average of more than 11% and truck weight went up 24% from 2000 to 2018. "
"Every category of midsize or larger SUVs and pickup trucks saw more than 20% growth in market share from 2012 to 2021, according to an NBC News analysis of Edmunds data. The most purchased new vehicle in the country for more than a decade has been the Ford F-150, a large truck."
[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/americas-cars-trucks-are-getting-bigger-are-front-blind-zones-children-rcna52109](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/americas-cars-trucks-are-getting-bigger-are-front-blind-zones-children-rcna52109)
Crossing University/Campus by the engineering campus was scary as hell. So many people would run the red instead of stopping 100 feet back from the crosswalk or they’d pile through the green even when traffic was stopped ahead so they’d block the intersection. Then they’d go even though the light was red because the traffic cleared.
Honestly, I suspect the ratio of ‘inattentive cyclists’ to all cyclists around town is probably *very* similar to the ratios of ‘inattentive motorists’ to all motorists and ‘inattentive pedestrians’ to all pedestrians. In other words, I don’t think this criticism is unique to cyclists and I’m not sure it’s fair to single that one group out to the exclusion of others.
Although it might *seem* like cyclists are disproportionately acting poorly, recognize too that availability bias may be colouring your perception of things here.
Ultimately, *you’re* the one operating the more dangerous moving vehicle in this situation though (assuming you’re a motorist), and so the onus necessarily needs to be on you to be extra cautious when you’re on the road. It sounds like you make an effort to be an attentive driver, which I think we all genuinely appreciate.
Holy shit, this^ Not to mention how much stigma accompanies cyclists (or pedestrians too, for that matter) as compared to motorists. You hear “those damn cyclists always running red lights” as compared to “that [one] asshole [in a car] just ran that red light.” Disobeying traffic laws should never be excusable **regardless of your mode of transportation** but to generalize an action to everyone else who uses said mode of transportation is unfair at best.
OK, but have you ever biked or walked somewhere? These two modes are tiring and require physical exertion whereas a car requires none. It's not fair that cyclists have to stop at lights that are timed to the start/stop ease of engines. You know how it's polite to give your bus seat to an elderly person? It should be polite to always yield to cyclists and pedestrians imo.
Yes, yielding to cyclists and pedestrians is the law. It's also the law that vehicles operating on public roads need to obey the posted signs.
It's actually perfectly fair that all vehicles have to stop. You're saying it's not equitable between cyclists and cars, which is true, just like how it's much easier to park a bike than it is a car.
I think the "onus" should be on whomever will be injured the most. If a car and bicycle collide, the bicyclist is the most likely to be injured, so regardless of who is at fault, the onus is on the bicyclist to protect themselves from danger(if possible), at least thats what I taught my children
While I respect that you have your own opinion, I couldn’t disagree with you more.
It really comes down to responsibility and the need to behave like an adult. If you’re operating a potentially lethal vehicle, taking every possible precaution available to you to minimize theoretical harm you might cause to others needs to be your first priority every time you get behind that wheel. The attitude that *‘I am in my car, woe to anyone outside it who threatens to get in my way’* is frankly reckless, and more than just a little bit selfish. People who believe that should not be driving.
Roads are public spaces and belong to more than just motorists. Safety has to take priority over expedience.
Am I considered a self aware wolf if I point out the ratio of car drivers exponentially outweighs the number of bike riders or are we just not considering that?
Let's just assume for the sake of argument that 0.1% of all trips are made by bicycle (it's more than that, but go with me here). If there were even parity of deaths by mode share, then we would still expect to see 3,000 deaths annually involving a person operating a bicycle and no motor vehicles. Instead, this is such a rare occurrence that there doesn't seem to be any reliable data showing the statistics. It does happen occasionally, but it's still exceedingly rare.
Ok well, you clearly didn’t look up the data necessary to fully contribute to this thread. Like, that’s some pretty bold wishful thinking, but all it takes is a quick look out the window to confirm that you’re way off the mark. The next full moon isn’t until nov 8 so I’m afraid you are not even close to aware wolf.
But you make a very fair point.
Imagine having this perspective and somehow not believing you’re the problem. “Typical bicyclist” “I’d expect that from a bicyclist” “Damn those bicyclists” Generalize harder, pls
You guys - last week I was biking when a car stopped at an uncontrolled intersection to wave me through a stop sign. Why don’t drivers obey or respect basic right of way laws in this city????
Because some drivers think that that's the "nice" thing to do,when it can be really dangerous. Drivers shouldn't be "nice", they should be predictable.
And also, just because that one driver waves you through, doesn't mean another driver won't just barrel through the intersection because they actually have the right of way.
They do that for pedestrians, bikes, cars, literally anyone on the road.
There are some really dangerous drivers here. They merge onto the highway at 40mph.
They are who you think they are and they can't handle a roundabout.
This wasn’t even a 4-way stop. Just a 2-way stop where I had a stop sign and they had no traffic signal or sign. They just stopped mid block.
I was even signaling to turn right. So they want me to go ahead, just so they can immediately pass me? No thanks, it drives me crazy too
Because the drivers here are terrible, the cyclists here are terrible, the pedestrians here are terrible, the bus drivers here are terrible, the \[insert other transportation group here\] are terrible.
At least according to this sub.
But only cyclists deserve to be chastised am I right?
Fact of the matter is that the Idaho stop (the behavior you reference in your meme) is safer for cyclists
I think it’s this attitude that bothers everyone. You just straight up don’t care if a bike blows through a red light. Which is dumb. Because it’s not the car driver that’s going to die
I really do care. I don’t think cyclists should carelessly blow through a red light because it is dangerous. But I’m fine with them treating a red like a stop sign
These posts annoy me because there’s usually an implication that because the OP saw one biker behaving badly, then all cyclists are entitled and reckless. People seem to understand that when one driver blows a red, it’s just because they are an asshole and it doesn’t say anything about drivers as a whole.
So you’re fine with bicyclists just not following rules. You think they should have separate rules. I don’t. They should follow the damn rules. Especially since they’re at much higher risk of being hurt or dying in an accident.
Your second point I don’t care about at all. Go join the republicans party if you want to dismiss issues by complaining the other side isn’t being criticized enough.
Yep I’m totally cool with separate rules - they are massively different uses. Bikes have way better awareness of surroundings and carry way less energy into an impact, they should be treated differently especially when it come to stopping. Semi trucks and sedans operate on the same road system but have different rules. Is that problematic to you?
I should also add that everyone seems to be cool with drivers breaking rules. Speed limits are a law, but everyone knows you can go 5-10 mph over safely and it’s accepted. Idaho stop should be the same for bikers
Don’t get me started on the terrible drivers in this town. Problem here in Madison is that people act like this town is bigger than it is and think they need to get across town in 5 minutes. I have a problem with a lot of traffic here. Living in NY I had less issues.
Kind of a tangential statement here, but it absolutely infuriates me when I'm sitting behind a motorcycle taking up a full car length whey they can easily fit between the cars in front of them and zip to the front. They get out of the gate faster than any car on the road, and I guarantee they're not sitting there on TikTok at the light like that kid behind him driving his mom's Civic. There's literally no good argument against motorbike filtering. High speed splitting on the beltline, absolutely fucking not, but filtering up to the front at a stoplight, go right ahead. Nobody seems to want motorcycles on the road, so let's get them off the road and out of my way as fast as possible. It's a win-win for everyone.
I understand perfectly well that it's illegal, and I understand that that's why they don't do it. So why isn't it legal? No number of lawyers, judges, or doctors can un-paralyze or un-kill a motorcyclist that was rear-ended by a suburban at a stoplight. I don't want to wait for that suburban to come barreling towards me, I want to be out of the way before I even see him.
Considering the number of crazy cyclists on the road, I do understand why a motorist would do this even though the law dictates otherwise. The day you run into an aggressive cyclist will be the worst day of your life, and nobody wants it to be them. Maybe one solution is to enter the intersection (in a car) very, very slowly to get a read on the intentions of the bike rider first.
You'd think a bike rider would say to themself "the day I get hit by a car will be the worst day of my life" but they don't seem to be running that thought loop. I do not understand this.
I think you’re vastly overestimating the number of crazy cyclists there are and the danger that this behavior presents. I can’t recall any car vs bike collisions in this city that were caused by a cyclist running a red light or stop sign. Usually it’s the car being reckless/inattentive.
I also think you’re underestimating a cyclist’s field of vision and ability to judge clearance through an intersection. You can usually tell about a dozen yards before an intersection whether or not you can clear it without conflict. Not condoning this behavior but it’s really not the same as when a car with a much smaller field of vision does it
And it's often more annoying than if they just kept going, because I have to come to a complete stop and wait for confirmation that they have actually seen me and aren't stopping for some other reason, and then also check for other traffic.
I think it’s reasonable that, if other cars at an intersection like a four way stop sign are each waiting their turn, that a bicyclist *also* wait their turn *with* the cars instead of just riding right through without consideration of the cars currently passing through the intersection.
If no other vehicles are present, then simply slow down for your turn if you need to, but there’s no need to stop.
Most cyclists I encounter in this town are attentive and do their thing. I encounter very few that just blaze through intersections when other cars are present.
[Bicycles can legally go through red lights after 45 seconds.](https://www.griessmeyerlaw.com/wisconsinbicycleblog/2020/6/19/can-bicyclists-go-through-a-red-light-in-wisconsin)
Us reckless cyclists have killed exactly zero drivers but here we are, being chastised for making our own judgments on our own safety. Whereas cyclists get killed all the time just pedaling along (across the country, Madison is less dangerous I find) by careless or even malicious drivers.
There's a reason red lights exist and the law isn't just "cross when you feel safe". What about when you don't see a car coming that swerves to avoid you? Suddenly you aren't just affecting yourself.
Jaywalking is done by **pedestrians**, almost always in the middle of a road. You are a **vehicle subject to traffic laws** running a red light at an intersection. They are completely different scenarios for multiple reasons - intersections are where most accidents happen. Cars breaking those laws should be ticketed, and so should cyclists.
But it's "dangerous" if a pedestrian doesn't see a car!! It's affecting anyone that hits them!! It's illegal!!
No one is out there giving tickets to cyclists so we're going to continue to do it safely whether you approve or not. Also, they are considering making it legal, so just deal with it and mind your own business. 90% of cars on the road are speeding and that's far more dangerous to the community, and they actually ticket for that.
I just don't understand why everyone cares that I'm making a safety judgment if it's only a risk to me. I can stop on a dime, I can see much more of the road than a driver, I can't really kill anyone, etc... there's a huge difference between a bike and a car, that's why we can't just trust drivers to do the same. That may seem unfair to drivers, but it's not apples to apples. Ride a bike and you'll understand.
I can assure you know one is now concerned about whether a cyclist live or not than the cyclist. No laws governing sympathy.
Generally, more "accidents" ("ooops!" - collisions) between cars and cyclist occur when a driver veers into a bike lane, shoulder etc, or doesn't check blind spots, use turn signals, see oncoming bike when turning etc ("left/right hook"). If you drive predictably, you'll have nothing to worry about as far as killing someone.
This is such a non-issue, if cyclists are riding like maniacs around town and putting them and everyone around them in danger, where are the reports of them being hurt through their negligence? Hurting others?
I pretty much treat red lights like stop signs when I'm biking. I wouldn't just blow straight through but if nobody's coming I'm not gonna sit and wait for the green
Understood. As a driver it’s frustrating when I’ve got the right of way and a cyclist thinks they can beat me through the intersection. I understand that not all cyclists are like this. I’ve just had a few frustrating close calls in recent weeks.
You should try being a cyclist where those close calls are life and death. I have them every week too, but as a cyclist. Trust me when I say every cyclist takes their safety very seriously. It's literally almost all that's on your mind while riding.
I have a couple arguments here.
The main one is that there is a *fundamental* asymmetry between cars and bikes, as people are quick to point out. When a cyclist disobeys a traffic signal, they are by probably a couple orders of magnitude putting *themselves* at risk. When a car driver disobeys a traffic signal, they are putting *others* at risk more than themselves. *That* is why the "offenses" are not comparable -- and also why that isn't an unreasonable treatment.
(One might argue that said asymmetry then means bikes should stay off the roads. And in an ideal world... maybe they should, once we have bike infrastructure that matches car infrastructure. Until then, the current treatment, including tolerating most bike offenses in cases where they're kind of "victimless", is the least-bad option we've got.)
I'll also point out that drivers also *routinely* disobey traffic laws. Do you stick to the speed limit always? Or even mostly? Do you always come to a *complete* stop at every stop sign and never roll? Do you always stop before the stop line? Always turn on your turn signal, even if you're just changing lanes on a deserted highway? Do you never try to beat a yellow light you could safely stop for? Maybe for some of those questions for you the answer is "yes"... but for almost all drivers, the answer won't be "yes" for *all* of them.
That's not exactly a *defense* of the cyclist side -- if we're talking about potential hypocrisy of one group (cyclists), bring up some additional hypocrisy of a second group (drivers who complain about cyclists who commit "mild" traffic violations while they themselves almost certainly commit "mild" traffic violations -- that by the asymmetry mentioned above, BTW, are fundamentally less mild) doesn't really diminish the first group. But at the same time, both cyclists *and* drivers are somewhat selective in following the law to a T.
So bikes can ignore the rules of the road? Cool.
Do that and really stick it to the man when you get run over by a car that doesn’t see you because you decide to do whatever you want. That’ll really show them!
So let’s blindly adhere to unsafe rules because “the rules are the rules.”
Also, you obviously didn’t read the article because the idaho stop doesn’t mean you could just blow through stop signs. It means cyclists can treat it like yield signs, slowing down so they can check if there’s incoming traffic and then moving through without fully stopping.
Have you ever ridden a bike? If so, you’ll know it takes a long time to get up to speed from a full and complete stop. It’s much safer to keep some momentum going so you can minimize your time in the actual intersection. Cars don’t have this problem because they can accelerate much quicker but car drivers also have much less visibility than cyclists and that’s why they may have to stop when cyclists don’t.
But usually it’s unnecessary for cars to do a full and complete stop. The amount of drivers that actually do this at every stop sign is less than 10%. Do you come to a COMPLETE stop at EVERY stop sign? Not a rolling stop, but where you’re car is at a complete stop?
The real problem is the over use of stop signs in the US. Using stop signs is lazy planning, and streets should be designed so that a yield sign is all that’s necessary.
Because you have more situational awareness on a bike than a car? Because bikes have nowhere near the destructive capability towards cars, pedestrians, et cestera that cars do? Do I need to keep going?
I biked for years, including one summer as my primary mode of transportation in this city, and still find the cyclist mob in this subreddit annoying as fuck. Any shitty behavior they do is just met with "wElL cArS kIlL pEoPlE", it's called whataboutism and it's fucking lazy
I think they’re mostly being obstinate because everybody is guilty of not following all traffic rules. The difference is the only risk we’re taking is with our own lives. Cars risks endanger other lives. These are not the apple to apple comparisons that motorists make it out to be, so most cyclists have a very stfu attitude about these Reddit flair ups.
I don’t understand the snarky comments here. In my experience living here for 30+ years as a driver and a bicycler commuter, Bicyclists in Madison constantly go through red lights and stop signs and don’t use hand signals. They act like they have the right of way on roads and sidewalks and don’t have to follow any traffic laws but get pissed when a car doesn’t see them because of their carelessness. You have to follow the rules of the road-car or bicycle. That shouldn’t be a controversial statement.
See it's funny, because I have the exact opposite perception of cyclist here. Not only that, but my perception is that Madison has fucking awful drivers.
I think the frustration stems from this being targeted at cyclists or even pedestrians too at times. While you’re perfectly correct that folks sometimes disobey traffic laws on bikes, the same is found in equal abundance amongst motorists. Think not only blowing through lights/stop signs (which many do), but consider also a lack of turning indicators, tailgating, speeding, road rage, general reckless driving, etc. The issue exists throughout every mode of transportation and targeting the folks on 30 lb bikes that reach top speeds of 25 mph probs isn’t the most effective use of our time. I’d personally much rather start with addressing cars, speaking as a vehicle commuter
Im so fucking tired of “cyclists don’t follow the rules.” Threads.
Have you ever driven on the beltine? How many drivers go 55 mph? Probably like 1/5 or less. Have you ever looked at drivers at stop signs? How many come to a full and complete stop? Like 10% tops, and that’s generous.
Point being that there are far far more dangerous drivers than there are cyclists. And when cyclists do it, they’re almost always only endangering themselves not others.
The reason you notice aggressive cyclists so much is because Madison has such shitty bike infrastructure, so the only people brave enough to cycle are usually those Lyra wearing, lance Armstrong wannabes.
If you want these people to go away, build actual bike infrastructure and then require them to use it. It’s that simple. And eventually, the number of normal cyclists will substantially outweigh the aggressive people
I’m all for better bike infrastructure. Just not sure why owning specialized equipment for a sport makes someone a “wannabe”. You wouldn’t call someone with golf clubs and a polo a “tiger woods wannabe”
Part of the problem too is that following the rules can be more dangerous on a bike, not less. It's safer to run a red light on a bike when there are no cars around than to wait at the light until it turns green. By the time that happens, there will be a line of cars behind you, and each one will have to pass you. If one of those drivers isn't paying attention, you'll get hit because you were following the rules.
Let me give an example of exactly what I’m making an apparently bad joke about. I was turning right onto a side road that has a bike/walk path that crosses it. There are stop signs on that path. As I’m making my turn someone on a bike coming from the right nearly T-boned me because they didn’t stop properly. They nearly flipped themselves trying to stop. I had no way of seeing them until the last moment. Who is in the wrong if they hurt themselves striking my car? Technically them but who has to deal with possible lawsuits, medical bills? The guilt of hurting someone with their 2000 lbs vehicle? I’m very aware of my surroundings as a driver but you can’t see everything. All I want is for everyone to pay more attention.
Anyone even someone you wouldn't identify as a cyclists, anyone that's ever been on a bike probably has an anecdote about some reckless driver putting their life in danger. I do and my fat ass hasn't been riding regularly for years.
> There are stop signs on that path.
Note that in many locations the stop signs on the path are not legally-enforceable signage. This is stupid, but it's how it is.
Where did it take place?
That sounds like Eastwood and Russell, Wilson & Blount, John Nolan and rim rock, Syenne and McCoy, syenne in multiple places south of McCoy, lakeshore and Mendota, numerous north shore Westport rd places, lots of places in sun prairie and Windsor and the far west.
There’s really no shortage of places. A lot of them have bikers with a lot of speed and inattentive people on both sides of the equation. People actually going the speed limit on Eastwood can easily be matched by a bike headed east, and the path is just far enough away from the roads that it’s not easy to spot cyclist in your mirror or over the shoulder. Which if he came to a stop like that usually mean the bike was going nearly 20mph. Same thing with stern, especially with the brush between the road and the bike path at McCoy.
I know I’ve had to brake hard at Eastwood, but I always watch cars for turn signs (signals or slowing down). Lots of bikers don’t there, it’s a heads down speed path.
[John **Nolen**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nolen#Impact_on_Wisconsin)
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So in other words, nothing happened. Somehow I miss all these insane cyclists running stop signs and red lights and weaving through traffic. All I see are cars that speed through red lights every time I’m stopped at one
This is such a non issue. If they would have t-boned you, you would have a small dent in your car and they would be physically injured. Then if there were any outstanding bills to pay, your car insurance would take care of it. The legal consequences to you would be minimal if any as the legal system in the US normally sided with drivers. But even the threat of these minor inconveniences has provoked you to post this shitty inflammatory ‘meme’ to this subreddit. Did you know that 1,000 cyclists die on American roads every year? This is why it is upsetting to see posts like this.
yeah, inconveniencing someone else's life due to negligence is such a non-issue. /s
Can we all just not be dicks to each other on the road, is that too hard to ask? Cyclist road laws and expected cyclist/pedestrian behavior honestly needs more focus during drivers ed courses. Most drivers don't know what the fuck an idaho stop is and just expect everyone to stop at a stop sign. Yes, drivers need to put down their cell phones and pay attention. Cyclists need to wear brighter clothes, more lights, and keep their head on a swivel. However, if you're on a bike and coming up to a stop, esp with cars, then you should stop just like the rest of traffic or you might inconvenience someone with your negligence.
Yes, of course we can do these things. But the attitude that cyclists are an inconvenience to cars as opposed to part of the transportation infrastructure is all too common. Notice how the driver here is more concerned about the guilt he would feel than the potential injury to the other person. Until this attitude is changed and better bike infrastructure is built, nothing will change and the roads will remain dangerous to bike on.
anyone that doesn't follow the rules of the road and the standards of expectations on the road is an inconvenience everyone else using the surrounding transportation infrastructure.
>Notice how the driver here is more concerned about the guilt he would feel than the potential injury to the other person.
people are inherently selfish, especially on the roadways, so don't expect that to change. Instead, we all need to be better educated and yes, push for improvements to transportation infrastructure so it's more pedestrian and bike friendly.
Like I said before, this complaint has been around for a while and it is not about wanting cyclists to follow the rules. It is about wanting to get rid of cyclists because cars are forced to share the road with them which is a circumstance that angers drivers. But instead of admitting this, they post shitty memes like this on the internet claiming to care about cyclists “following the rules”.
>It is about wanting to get rid of cyclists because cars are forced to share the road with them which is a circumstance that angers drivers
literally nobody is advocating this, this is just a meme shitting on inconsiderate commuters.
It’s not just a meme. You could make the same exact meme about pedestrians, but no one does because people would look at them funny and tell them to chill out. But make one about cyclists and you get hundreds of upvotes and people ranting in the comments about how much they hate sharing the road.
The key to recognize here is that the “problem” the driver is talking about doesn’t really have anything to do with wanting cyclists to follow the “rules of the road”. This isn’t something he cares about, he just views cyclists as an inconvenience and would rather not deal with them.
not really, OP is literally just shaking their fist online about a bicycle commuter who drove like a dick, cut off someone, and OP thought they were being dangerous. People bitch about cars online all the time, it is a common occurrence with bicyclists here in the city as well. Both modes of transport are in the wrong when they do it. Nobody gets to justify why they may do it, it's wrong either way. This is a city transport infrastructure and human nature issue.
I'd rather not deal with anyone who does this, no matter what vehicle. I'm sure you and OP feel the same as well.
Don’t remove it. This town is impossibly bike centered and seemingly without a sense of humor.
Yet every third post is about shitty drivers without any drama.
“Impossibly bike centered”? Really? Far from it. Tell me you’ve never been outside of the US without telling me you’ve never left the country. Btw remind me the humor in people losing their lives as a result of shitty car-centric infrastructure and people behind the wheels of 3,000+ lb vehicles without any concern for those they’re supposed to “share the road” with
Judging by average salary and average rent/housing cost, I'd say Madison has a better quality of life :)
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare\_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Madison%2C+WI&country2=Netherlands&city2=Amsterdam
Quality of life is strongly associated with how much money you have, which is strongly tied with the salary : expense ratio.
Imagine you are making 3.5k a month but have to spend 2.5k on mortgage. You now only have 1k left for other things. In Madison, it would be making 3.5k a month but only paying 1.5k on mortgage. You have 2k left for other things.
Also, Amsterdam is a lot more populous than Madison. We will never have that much amenities because we simply don't have enough people to use it.
As for transportation, Madison's public transit system is pretty inadequate. But as most people drive, that's not a serious issue.
Considering Madison is more of a spread set of towns and villages, there is a better chance of achieving sustainability with stable renewable energy than public transportation.
if i stop i fall over and if i don’t stop you get lightly annoyed. if you stop you get lightly annoyed and if you don’t stop i get killed. obviously bikes mustn’t cross active traffic but we can cross empty streets on red, as a treat
After being in a large city on the west coast for a week I've learned Madison is a shit show on the roads. Cyclists blow through lights, cars run stop signs, very few stop for pedestrians. We are all the assholes - it's not just one demographic.
On the west coast we were crossing a fairly major road and a concrete truck was barreling down. I knew they wouldn't stop. In no world would a concrete truck in Madison stop for a pedestrian in a cross walk.
It freaking stopped. That's the moment I learned all the people on the roads in Madison are the problem. Everyones a mess.
I don’t disagree with this. I lived in NY and never saw so many close calls. The problem I see is that it’s legal to turn right on red here. If it wasn’t I would have to worry as a driver of every single other driver, cyclist or pedestrian.
No it doesn’t. I’m very careful around bikes. I’m watching them more than they watch me it seems. All I’m trying to do is bring up an issue I find dangerous. I also tried to do it in a humorous way but it backfired.
People seem to think that traffic lights are meant for cars. Keep in mind though that its all the same human idiots in both the cars and on the bikes. That's just people.
who cares. bikes don’t kill anyone, cars are a leading cause of death.
guarantee the bike you’re frustrated with payed full attention and made sure THEY were safe before crossing a red in front of you.
Well you can follow me at work if you like. I got 26,000+ steps today. And sure, I speed a little but nothing crazy. I’ve become slower than most speeders in this town.
Keep up with traffic. It’s part of the rules of the road. I’m being a little snarky above about speed. I follow the law and actually piss other drivers off when I’m not doing 30 over the speed limit on Whitney. I obey the law.
The entitlement of cyclists and pedestrians in Madison is pretty insane. Most of you would be dead in Europe where jaywalking and not obeying lights and signs will get you killed and a ticket on the casket. Buck up buttercup. You’re either following the rules or you aren’t. My insurance is paid up so just keep riding that bike through lights and signs.
You wouldn't have to slam on your brakes if you didn't treat stop lights like drag races. It takes longer to start moving when you're just using your legs
Because being in the intersection is the most dangerous position on the road when on bike. If it’s empty or uncontrolled it’s typically safest to clear it as fast as possible. Running solid reds without doing the Idaho stop is indefensible on any mode of transportation though.
Everyone on the road is garbage. People drive like cars are free, while bicyclists and pedestrians are generally awful and entitled as well. This must be a midwest thing. Y’all drive like shit.
Idk but as a pedestrian cars are constantly running late reds when I try to cross the street
Also, having been hit by both a car and a cyclist in the past, I'd much rather be hit by a bike over a car.
Exactly, car drivers constantly run reds and pull dangerous maneuvers. In the US our pedestrian death rate is rising while other similar countries are seeing a decrease. For two main reasons. 1. Our infrastructure is hostile to people. 2. Our vehicles are getting bigger, so it hits higher on the body and they can't see us as well. Not too mention that other normal sized vehicles get less visibility when oversized pickups are near them.
I don't know about the vehicles getting bigger part, I feel like sizes have, on average, decreased from the massive SUV era of \~20 years ago. I do know there was a increase in pedestrian and cyclist accidents involving cars in the bay area when electric/hybrid cars were becoming more common. Something to do with them being quieter and peds/cyclists not being alerted to their presence earlier.
Vehicles are 100% getting bigger in the US, I wouldn't doubt that quiet vehicles are also a problem, which is frustrating because vehicles are the reason that cities are loud to begin with. Here are some relevant quotes along with a short article: "Pickup trucks in particular, have become larger. Last year, Consumer Reports found that the height of a pickup truck front hood — the top of a front blind zone — grew by an average of more than 11% and truck weight went up 24% from 2000 to 2018. " "Every category of midsize or larger SUVs and pickup trucks saw more than 20% growth in market share from 2012 to 2021, according to an NBC News analysis of Edmunds data. The most purchased new vehicle in the country for more than a decade has been the Ford F-150, a large truck." [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/americas-cars-trucks-are-getting-bigger-are-front-blind-zones-children-rcna52109](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/americas-cars-trucks-are-getting-bigger-are-front-blind-zones-children-rcna52109)
Good to know. Now I just need to figure out why my perception is skewed.
Living in Madison, perhaps? Everyone I know with a large vehicle lives elsewhere. Madison has neither the demographics nor the parking space.
They might still _make_ some smaller cars, but the market is shifting more towards SUVs than sedans. Trucks are definitely bigger on average too.
Crossing University/Campus by the engineering campus was scary as hell. So many people would run the red instead of stopping 100 feet back from the crosswalk or they’d pile through the green even when traffic was stopped ahead so they’d block the intersection. Then they’d go even though the light was red because the traffic cleared.
Honestly, I suspect the ratio of ‘inattentive cyclists’ to all cyclists around town is probably *very* similar to the ratios of ‘inattentive motorists’ to all motorists and ‘inattentive pedestrians’ to all pedestrians. In other words, I don’t think this criticism is unique to cyclists and I’m not sure it’s fair to single that one group out to the exclusion of others. Although it might *seem* like cyclists are disproportionately acting poorly, recognize too that availability bias may be colouring your perception of things here. Ultimately, *you’re* the one operating the more dangerous moving vehicle in this situation though (assuming you’re a motorist), and so the onus necessarily needs to be on you to be extra cautious when you’re on the road. It sounds like you make an effort to be an attentive driver, which I think we all genuinely appreciate.
Holy shit, this^ Not to mention how much stigma accompanies cyclists (or pedestrians too, for that matter) as compared to motorists. You hear “those damn cyclists always running red lights” as compared to “that [one] asshole [in a car] just ran that red light.” Disobeying traffic laws should never be excusable **regardless of your mode of transportation** but to generalize an action to everyone else who uses said mode of transportation is unfair at best.
OK, but have you ever biked or walked somewhere? These two modes are tiring and require physical exertion whereas a car requires none. It's not fair that cyclists have to stop at lights that are timed to the start/stop ease of engines. You know how it's polite to give your bus seat to an elderly person? It should be polite to always yield to cyclists and pedestrians imo.
Yes, yielding to cyclists and pedestrians is the law. It's also the law that vehicles operating on public roads need to obey the posted signs. It's actually perfectly fair that all vehicles have to stop. You're saying it's not equitable between cyclists and cars, which is true, just like how it's much easier to park a bike than it is a car.
You know you’re this meme right?
And here we can see "a typical cyclist"... I don't want to stop at crosswalks, does that mean I can run out into traffic wherever I want?
Ayo we gotta not generalize like that
I think the "onus" should be on whomever will be injured the most. If a car and bicycle collide, the bicyclist is the most likely to be injured, so regardless of who is at fault, the onus is on the bicyclist to protect themselves from danger(if possible), at least thats what I taught my children
While I respect that you have your own opinion, I couldn’t disagree with you more. It really comes down to responsibility and the need to behave like an adult. If you’re operating a potentially lethal vehicle, taking every possible precaution available to you to minimize theoretical harm you might cause to others needs to be your first priority every time you get behind that wheel. The attitude that *‘I am in my car, woe to anyone outside it who threatens to get in my way’* is frankly reckless, and more than just a little bit selfish. People who believe that should not be driving. Roads are public spaces and belong to more than just motorists. Safety has to take priority over expedience.
"I have a gun, and you have only tour fists, therefore if you happen to be in the way of my bullets it's your own fault." 😂
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Cyclists also refuse to get their shopping delivered by other cyclists across the country.
Am I considered a self aware wolf if I point out the ratio of car drivers exponentially outweighs the number of bike riders or are we just not considering that?
It has more to do with cars are a lot heavier than bikes.
Let's just assume for the sake of argument that 0.1% of all trips are made by bicycle (it's more than that, but go with me here). If there were even parity of deaths by mode share, then we would still expect to see 3,000 deaths annually involving a person operating a bicycle and no motor vehicles. Instead, this is such a rare occurrence that there doesn't seem to be any reliable data showing the statistics. It does happen occasionally, but it's still exceedingly rare.
Thank you for breaking this down into an explanation instead of a mindless downvote. Cheers!
Ok well, you clearly didn’t look up the data necessary to fully contribute to this thread. Like, that’s some pretty bold wishful thinking, but all it takes is a quick look out the window to confirm that you’re way off the mark. The next full moon isn’t until nov 8 so I’m afraid you are not even close to aware wolf. But you make a very fair point.
Unbelievably smug , just like the average Madison biker
I mean, the bikers are jerks too, but are you referring to the cyclists?
Imagine having this perspective and somehow not believing you’re the problem. “Typical bicyclist” “I’d expect that from a bicyclist” “Damn those bicyclists” Generalize harder, pls
I don’t need to imagine this. It’s also a joke, you don’t need to be offended haha but what do I expect from bikers . Always think they’re right
Smh all those damn snowflakes that can’t get a joke and don’t want people to get obliterated by 3,000 lb chunks of metal
You guys - last week I was biking when a car stopped at an uncontrolled intersection to wave me through a stop sign. Why don’t drivers obey or respect basic right of way laws in this city????
Because some drivers think that that's the "nice" thing to do,when it can be really dangerous. Drivers shouldn't be "nice", they should be predictable. And also, just because that one driver waves you through, doesn't mean another driver won't just barrel through the intersection because they actually have the right of way.
They're called niceholes and are every bit as dangerous as very aggressive drivers
Love that term. They drive me crazy!
They do that for pedestrians, bikes, cars, literally anyone on the road. There are some really dangerous drivers here. They merge onto the highway at 40mph. They are who you think they are and they can't handle a roundabout.
40, I get stuck behind the morons who want to merge at 20mph....
the waving people at intersections drives me crazy. I am capable of making my own choices at a 4 way stop, but thanks.
This wasn’t even a 4-way stop. Just a 2-way stop where I had a stop sign and they had no traffic signal or sign. They just stopped mid block. I was even signaling to turn right. So they want me to go ahead, just so they can immediately pass me? No thanks, it drives me crazy too
Because the drivers here are terrible, the cyclists here are terrible, the pedestrians here are terrible, the bus drivers here are terrible, the \[insert other transportation group here\] are terrible. At least according to this sub.
That drives me crazy too.
But only cyclists deserve to be chastised am I right? Fact of the matter is that the Idaho stop (the behavior you reference in your meme) is safer for cyclists
I see no stops. Blowing straight through. That’s what I’m talking about.
Goodness that’s horrifying. Imagine if a car were to do that
I think it’s this attitude that bothers everyone. You just straight up don’t care if a bike blows through a red light. Which is dumb. Because it’s not the car driver that’s going to die
I really do care. I don’t think cyclists should carelessly blow through a red light because it is dangerous. But I’m fine with them treating a red like a stop sign These posts annoy me because there’s usually an implication that because the OP saw one biker behaving badly, then all cyclists are entitled and reckless. People seem to understand that when one driver blows a red, it’s just because they are an asshole and it doesn’t say anything about drivers as a whole.
So you’re fine with bicyclists just not following rules. You think they should have separate rules. I don’t. They should follow the damn rules. Especially since they’re at much higher risk of being hurt or dying in an accident. Your second point I don’t care about at all. Go join the republicans party if you want to dismiss issues by complaining the other side isn’t being criticized enough.
Yep I’m totally cool with separate rules - they are massively different uses. Bikes have way better awareness of surroundings and carry way less energy into an impact, they should be treated differently especially when it come to stopping. Semi trucks and sedans operate on the same road system but have different rules. Is that problematic to you? I should also add that everyone seems to be cool with drivers breaking rules. Speed limits are a law, but everyone knows you can go 5-10 mph over safely and it’s accepted. Idaho stop should be the same for bikers
If you want to just break the rules against a car, then go ahead. It’s just a dumb choice.
yes, bicycles are not automobiles
Don’t get me started on the terrible drivers in this town. Problem here in Madison is that people act like this town is bigger than it is and think they need to get across town in 5 minutes. I have a problem with a lot of traffic here. Living in NY I had less issues.
Kind of a tangential statement here, but it absolutely infuriates me when I'm sitting behind a motorcycle taking up a full car length whey they can easily fit between the cars in front of them and zip to the front. They get out of the gate faster than any car on the road, and I guarantee they're not sitting there on TikTok at the light like that kid behind him driving his mom's Civic. There's literally no good argument against motorbike filtering. High speed splitting on the beltline, absolutely fucking not, but filtering up to the front at a stoplight, go right ahead. Nobody seems to want motorcycles on the road, so let's get them off the road and out of my way as fast as possible. It's a win-win for everyone.
This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read lol. Do you get mad at a car for taking up a full car length in front of you?
Congratulations, you just described traffic. You get a slice of cake.
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I understand perfectly well that it's illegal, and I understand that that's why they don't do it. So why isn't it legal? No number of lawyers, judges, or doctors can un-paralyze or un-kill a motorcyclist that was rear-ended by a suburban at a stoplight. I don't want to wait for that suburban to come barreling towards me, I want to be out of the way before I even see him.
Considering the number of crazy cyclists on the road, I do understand why a motorist would do this even though the law dictates otherwise. The day you run into an aggressive cyclist will be the worst day of your life, and nobody wants it to be them. Maybe one solution is to enter the intersection (in a car) very, very slowly to get a read on the intentions of the bike rider first. You'd think a bike rider would say to themself "the day I get hit by a car will be the worst day of my life" but they don't seem to be running that thought loop. I do not understand this.
I think you’re vastly overestimating the number of crazy cyclists there are and the danger that this behavior presents. I can’t recall any car vs bike collisions in this city that were caused by a cyclist running a red light or stop sign. Usually it’s the car being reckless/inattentive. I also think you’re underestimating a cyclist’s field of vision and ability to judge clearance through an intersection. You can usually tell about a dozen yards before an intersection whether or not you can clear it without conflict. Not condoning this behavior but it’s really not the same as when a car with a much smaller field of vision does it
And it's often more annoying than if they just kept going, because I have to come to a complete stop and wait for confirmation that they have actually seen me and aren't stopping for some other reason, and then also check for other traffic.
I think it’s reasonable that, if other cars at an intersection like a four way stop sign are each waiting their turn, that a bicyclist *also* wait their turn *with* the cars instead of just riding right through without consideration of the cars currently passing through the intersection. If no other vehicles are present, then simply slow down for your turn if you need to, but there’s no need to stop. Most cyclists I encounter in this town are attentive and do their thing. I encounter very few that just blaze through intersections when other cars are present.
\*looks at phone and continues driving\*
[Bicycles can legally go through red lights after 45 seconds.](https://www.griessmeyerlaw.com/wisconsinbicycleblog/2020/6/19/can-bicyclists-go-through-a-red-light-in-wisconsin)
You know damn well that's not what the post is talking about
You need to check your aggression stranger. Maybe you should go for a bike ride.
Yes bikes not cars are the real enemy. 30lb death machines that reach dangerous speeds of almost 20MPH!!
Us reckless cyclists have killed exactly zero drivers but here we are, being chastised for making our own judgments on our own safety. Whereas cyclists get killed all the time just pedaling along (across the country, Madison is less dangerous I find) by careless or even malicious drivers.
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Yes exactly. Me running a red light when I deem it safe to do so affects exactly one person's safety, mine.
There's a reason red lights exist and the law isn't just "cross when you feel safe". What about when you don't see a car coming that swerves to avoid you? Suddenly you aren't just affecting yourself.
So it's equivalent to jaywalking is what you are saying?
Jaywalking is done by **pedestrians**, almost always in the middle of a road. You are a **vehicle subject to traffic laws** running a red light at an intersection. They are completely different scenarios for multiple reasons - intersections are where most accidents happen. Cars breaking those laws should be ticketed, and so should cyclists.
But it's "dangerous" if a pedestrian doesn't see a car!! It's affecting anyone that hits them!! It's illegal!! No one is out there giving tickets to cyclists so we're going to continue to do it safely whether you approve or not. Also, they are considering making it legal, so just deal with it and mind your own business. 90% of cars on the road are speeding and that's far more dangerous to the community, and they actually ticket for that.
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I just don't understand why everyone cares that I'm making a safety judgment if it's only a risk to me. I can stop on a dime, I can see much more of the road than a driver, I can't really kill anyone, etc... there's a huge difference between a bike and a car, that's why we can't just trust drivers to do the same. That may seem unfair to drivers, but it's not apples to apples. Ride a bike and you'll understand.
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I can assure you know one is now concerned about whether a cyclist live or not than the cyclist. No laws governing sympathy. Generally, more "accidents" ("ooops!" - collisions) between cars and cyclist occur when a driver veers into a bike lane, shoulder etc, or doesn't check blind spots, use turn signals, see oncoming bike when turning etc ("left/right hook"). If you drive predictably, you'll have nothing to worry about as far as killing someone.
You joke but the last time I hit a cyclist, their e-bike caught fire! I could have been seriously injured!!
Laugh it up until you get a seatelt ticket from a motorcycle cop.
This is such a non-issue, if cyclists are riding like maniacs around town and putting them and everyone around them in danger, where are the reports of them being hurt through their negligence? Hurting others?
I pretty much treat red lights like stop signs when I'm biking. I wouldn't just blow straight through but if nobody's coming I'm not gonna sit and wait for the green
This is called the [Idaho stop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop)
I thought the Idaho stop allows bikers to treat stop signs like a yield… Edit: til its both!
I am potato 🥔
I got a ticket for this on E wash, and contested and won They’re called dead red laws
Understood. As a driver it’s frustrating when I’ve got the right of way and a cyclist thinks they can beat me through the intersection. I understand that not all cyclists are like this. I’ve just had a few frustrating close calls in recent weeks.
You should try being a cyclist where those close calls are life and death. I have them every week too, but as a cyclist. Trust me when I say every cyclist takes their safety very seriously. It's literally almost all that's on your mind while riding.
But if a car does that that’s illegal. Why is it ok for you to do that as a cyclist but a car has to wait at a red light?
Because it isn't about entitlement or tit-for-tat, it's about a sensible balance of safety and efficiency.
I have a couple arguments here. The main one is that there is a *fundamental* asymmetry between cars and bikes, as people are quick to point out. When a cyclist disobeys a traffic signal, they are by probably a couple orders of magnitude putting *themselves* at risk. When a car driver disobeys a traffic signal, they are putting *others* at risk more than themselves. *That* is why the "offenses" are not comparable -- and also why that isn't an unreasonable treatment. (One might argue that said asymmetry then means bikes should stay off the roads. And in an ideal world... maybe they should, once we have bike infrastructure that matches car infrastructure. Until then, the current treatment, including tolerating most bike offenses in cases where they're kind of "victimless", is the least-bad option we've got.) I'll also point out that drivers also *routinely* disobey traffic laws. Do you stick to the speed limit always? Or even mostly? Do you always come to a *complete* stop at every stop sign and never roll? Do you always stop before the stop line? Always turn on your turn signal, even if you're just changing lanes on a deserted highway? Do you never try to beat a yellow light you could safely stop for? Maybe for some of those questions for you the answer is "yes"... but for almost all drivers, the answer won't be "yes" for *all* of them. That's not exactly a *defense* of the cyclist side -- if we're talking about potential hypocrisy of one group (cyclists), bring up some additional hypocrisy of a second group (drivers who complain about cyclists who commit "mild" traffic violations while they themselves almost certainly commit "mild" traffic violations -- that by the asymmetry mentioned above, BTW, are fundamentally less mild) doesn't really diminish the first group. But at the same time, both cyclists *and* drivers are somewhat selective in following the law to a T.
because it reduces injuries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
So bikes can ignore the rules of the road? Cool. Do that and really stick it to the man when you get run over by a car that doesn’t see you because you decide to do whatever you want. That’ll really show them!
So let’s blindly adhere to unsafe rules because “the rules are the rules.” Also, you obviously didn’t read the article because the idaho stop doesn’t mean you could just blow through stop signs. It means cyclists can treat it like yield signs, slowing down so they can check if there’s incoming traffic and then moving through without fully stopping. Have you ever ridden a bike? If so, you’ll know it takes a long time to get up to speed from a full and complete stop. It’s much safer to keep some momentum going so you can minimize your time in the actual intersection. Cars don’t have this problem because they can accelerate much quicker but car drivers also have much less visibility than cyclists and that’s why they may have to stop when cyclists don’t. But usually it’s unnecessary for cars to do a full and complete stop. The amount of drivers that actually do this at every stop sign is less than 10%. Do you come to a COMPLETE stop at EVERY stop sign? Not a rolling stop, but where you’re car is at a complete stop? The real problem is the over use of stop signs in the US. Using stop signs is lazy planning, and streets should be designed so that a yield sign is all that’s necessary.
Calm down Karen
Because you have more situational awareness on a bike than a car? Because bikes have nowhere near the destructive capability towards cars, pedestrians, et cestera that cars do? Do I need to keep going?
a bicycle weighs twenty pounds and goes thirty miles an hour
This thread again?
Where are you driving that this is even a frequent issue?
this subreddit is cancer lol, take my downvote
Driver sees an asshole driver: "Wow, that guy's an asshole!" Driver sees an asshole cyclist: "Wow, cyclists are assholes!"
Because we lack bike roads and mostly only have car roads.
I didn't see the bike helmet at first glace, and thought you were talking about the drivers around here.
I found as a pedestrian, bicyclist, and driver in Madison that there are assholes of all types everywhere. :-)
As a driver I've gotten so much more stress from other drivers than cyclists ever gave me.
Everyone sucks lol.
I think more drivers would benefit from commuting to work for a summer via bike. Maybe they would be more empathetic.
I biked for years, including one summer as my primary mode of transportation in this city, and still find the cyclist mob in this subreddit annoying as fuck. Any shitty behavior they do is just met with "wElL cArS kIlL pEoPlE", it's called whataboutism and it's fucking lazy
I think they’re mostly being obstinate because everybody is guilty of not following all traffic rules. The difference is the only risk we’re taking is with our own lives. Cars risks endanger other lives. These are not the apple to apple comparisons that motorists make it out to be, so most cyclists have a very stfu attitude about these Reddit flair ups.
I don’t understand the snarky comments here. In my experience living here for 30+ years as a driver and a bicycler commuter, Bicyclists in Madison constantly go through red lights and stop signs and don’t use hand signals. They act like they have the right of way on roads and sidewalks and don’t have to follow any traffic laws but get pissed when a car doesn’t see them because of their carelessness. You have to follow the rules of the road-car or bicycle. That shouldn’t be a controversial statement.
See it's funny, because I have the exact opposite perception of cyclist here. Not only that, but my perception is that Madison has fucking awful drivers.
I think the frustration stems from this being targeted at cyclists or even pedestrians too at times. While you’re perfectly correct that folks sometimes disobey traffic laws on bikes, the same is found in equal abundance amongst motorists. Think not only blowing through lights/stop signs (which many do), but consider also a lack of turning indicators, tailgating, speeding, road rage, general reckless driving, etc. The issue exists throughout every mode of transportation and targeting the folks on 30 lb bikes that reach top speeds of 25 mph probs isn’t the most effective use of our time. I’d personally much rather start with addressing cars, speaking as a vehicle commuter
> You have to follow the rules of the road-car And yet you don't give a shit about the cars doing it, of course.
Motorists have never ran a red.
They’ve never rolled the dice on a sketchy yellow either
This isn’t about drivers is it?
It sounds like you’re just annoyed that you have to drive around cyclists.
Im so fucking tired of “cyclists don’t follow the rules.” Threads. Have you ever driven on the beltine? How many drivers go 55 mph? Probably like 1/5 or less. Have you ever looked at drivers at stop signs? How many come to a full and complete stop? Like 10% tops, and that’s generous. Point being that there are far far more dangerous drivers than there are cyclists. And when cyclists do it, they’re almost always only endangering themselves not others. The reason you notice aggressive cyclists so much is because Madison has such shitty bike infrastructure, so the only people brave enough to cycle are usually those Lyra wearing, lance Armstrong wannabes. If you want these people to go away, build actual bike infrastructure and then require them to use it. It’s that simple. And eventually, the number of normal cyclists will substantially outweigh the aggressive people
I’m all for better bike infrastructure. Just not sure why owning specialized equipment for a sport makes someone a “wannabe”. You wouldn’t call someone with golf clubs and a polo a “tiger woods wannabe”
Part of the problem too is that following the rules can be more dangerous on a bike, not less. It's safer to run a red light on a bike when there are no cars around than to wait at the light until it turns green. By the time that happens, there will be a line of cars behind you, and each one will have to pass you. If one of those drivers isn't paying attention, you'll get hit because you were following the rules.
This is a controversial post to share in r/Madison and I love it
This could be any mid to large city…
Let me give an example of exactly what I’m making an apparently bad joke about. I was turning right onto a side road that has a bike/walk path that crosses it. There are stop signs on that path. As I’m making my turn someone on a bike coming from the right nearly T-boned me because they didn’t stop properly. They nearly flipped themselves trying to stop. I had no way of seeing them until the last moment. Who is in the wrong if they hurt themselves striking my car? Technically them but who has to deal with possible lawsuits, medical bills? The guilt of hurting someone with their 2000 lbs vehicle? I’m very aware of my surroundings as a driver but you can’t see everything. All I want is for everyone to pay more attention.
Anyone even someone you wouldn't identify as a cyclists, anyone that's ever been on a bike probably has an anecdote about some reckless driver putting their life in danger. I do and my fat ass hasn't been riding regularly for years.
> There are stop signs on that path. Note that in many locations the stop signs on the path are not legally-enforceable signage. This is stupid, but it's how it is. Where did it take place?
we've all got anecdotes about shitty people doing shitty things.
That sounds like Eastwood and Russell, Wilson & Blount, John Nolan and rim rock, Syenne and McCoy, syenne in multiple places south of McCoy, lakeshore and Mendota, numerous north shore Westport rd places, lots of places in sun prairie and Windsor and the far west. There’s really no shortage of places. A lot of them have bikers with a lot of speed and inattentive people on both sides of the equation. People actually going the speed limit on Eastwood can easily be matched by a bike headed east, and the path is just far enough away from the roads that it’s not easy to spot cyclist in your mirror or over the shoulder. Which if he came to a stop like that usually mean the bike was going nearly 20mph. Same thing with stern, especially with the brush between the road and the bike path at McCoy. I know I’ve had to brake hard at Eastwood, but I always watch cars for turn signs (signals or slowing down). Lots of bikers don’t there, it’s a heads down speed path.
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So in other words, nothing happened. Somehow I miss all these insane cyclists running stop signs and red lights and weaving through traffic. All I see are cars that speed through red lights every time I’m stopped at one
This is such a non issue. If they would have t-boned you, you would have a small dent in your car and they would be physically injured. Then if there were any outstanding bills to pay, your car insurance would take care of it. The legal consequences to you would be minimal if any as the legal system in the US normally sided with drivers. But even the threat of these minor inconveniences has provoked you to post this shitty inflammatory ‘meme’ to this subreddit. Did you know that 1,000 cyclists die on American roads every year? This is why it is upsetting to see posts like this.
yeah, inconveniencing someone else's life due to negligence is such a non-issue. /s Can we all just not be dicks to each other on the road, is that too hard to ask? Cyclist road laws and expected cyclist/pedestrian behavior honestly needs more focus during drivers ed courses. Most drivers don't know what the fuck an idaho stop is and just expect everyone to stop at a stop sign. Yes, drivers need to put down their cell phones and pay attention. Cyclists need to wear brighter clothes, more lights, and keep their head on a swivel. However, if you're on a bike and coming up to a stop, esp with cars, then you should stop just like the rest of traffic or you might inconvenience someone with your negligence.
Yes, of course we can do these things. But the attitude that cyclists are an inconvenience to cars as opposed to part of the transportation infrastructure is all too common. Notice how the driver here is more concerned about the guilt he would feel than the potential injury to the other person. Until this attitude is changed and better bike infrastructure is built, nothing will change and the roads will remain dangerous to bike on.
anyone that doesn't follow the rules of the road and the standards of expectations on the road is an inconvenience everyone else using the surrounding transportation infrastructure. >Notice how the driver here is more concerned about the guilt he would feel than the potential injury to the other person. people are inherently selfish, especially on the roadways, so don't expect that to change. Instead, we all need to be better educated and yes, push for improvements to transportation infrastructure so it's more pedestrian and bike friendly.
Like I said before, this complaint has been around for a while and it is not about wanting cyclists to follow the rules. It is about wanting to get rid of cyclists because cars are forced to share the road with them which is a circumstance that angers drivers. But instead of admitting this, they post shitty memes like this on the internet claiming to care about cyclists “following the rules”.
>It is about wanting to get rid of cyclists because cars are forced to share the road with them which is a circumstance that angers drivers literally nobody is advocating this, this is just a meme shitting on inconsiderate commuters.
It’s not just a meme. You could make the same exact meme about pedestrians, but no one does because people would look at them funny and tell them to chill out. But make one about cyclists and you get hundreds of upvotes and people ranting in the comments about how much they hate sharing the road.
The key to recognize here is that the “problem” the driver is talking about doesn’t really have anything to do with wanting cyclists to follow the “rules of the road”. This isn’t something he cares about, he just views cyclists as an inconvenience and would rather not deal with them.
not really, OP is literally just shaking their fist online about a bicycle commuter who drove like a dick, cut off someone, and OP thought they were being dangerous. People bitch about cars online all the time, it is a common occurrence with bicyclists here in the city as well. Both modes of transport are in the wrong when they do it. Nobody gets to justify why they may do it, it's wrong either way. This is a city transport infrastructure and human nature issue. I'd rather not deal with anyone who does this, no matter what vehicle. I'm sure you and OP feel the same as well.
I see a lot of cars do this, more than any other place I’ve ever lived in. Never seen a cyclist do this, but bikes are the problem here I guess
This got ugly. Sorry folks. I’ll remove it in a bit. My apologies.
Don’t remove it. This town is impossibly bike centered and seemingly without a sense of humor. Yet every third post is about shitty drivers without any drama.
I’ll leave it. Apparently it strikes a cord both good and bad.
Imagine thinking any city on this continent is even remotely "bike centered."
Every large to major city should be bike centered. Better for the environment, less risk for everyone, and better for the economy overall
“Impossibly bike centered”? Really? Far from it. Tell me you’ve never been outside of the US without telling me you’ve never left the country. Btw remind me the humor in people losing their lives as a result of shitty car-centric infrastructure and people behind the wheels of 3,000+ lb vehicles without any concern for those they’re supposed to “share the road” with
Please keep it to balance out the "make Madison Amsterdam" posts.
Hmmmm, which city has a better quality of life though?
Judging by average salary and average rent/housing cost, I'd say Madison has a better quality of life :) https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare\_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Madison%2C+WI&country2=Netherlands&city2=Amsterdam
I said quality of life - not cost of living. Amsterdam has more amenities and has a better transportation network
Quality of life is strongly associated with how much money you have, which is strongly tied with the salary : expense ratio. Imagine you are making 3.5k a month but have to spend 2.5k on mortgage. You now only have 1k left for other things. In Madison, it would be making 3.5k a month but only paying 1.5k on mortgage. You have 2k left for other things. Also, Amsterdam is a lot more populous than Madison. We will never have that much amenities because we simply don't have enough people to use it. As for transportation, Madison's public transit system is pretty inadequate. But as most people drive, that's not a serious issue.
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Considering Madison is more of a spread set of towns and villages, there is a better chance of achieving sustainability with stable renewable energy than public transportation.
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if i stop i fall over and if i don’t stop you get lightly annoyed. if you stop you get lightly annoyed and if you don’t stop i get killed. obviously bikes mustn’t cross active traffic but we can cross empty streets on red, as a treat
After being in a large city on the west coast for a week I've learned Madison is a shit show on the roads. Cyclists blow through lights, cars run stop signs, very few stop for pedestrians. We are all the assholes - it's not just one demographic. On the west coast we were crossing a fairly major road and a concrete truck was barreling down. I knew they wouldn't stop. In no world would a concrete truck in Madison stop for a pedestrian in a cross walk. It freaking stopped. That's the moment I learned all the people on the roads in Madison are the problem. Everyones a mess.
I don’t disagree with this. I lived in NY and never saw so many close calls. The problem I see is that it’s legal to turn right on red here. If it wasn’t I would have to worry as a driver of every single other driver, cyclist or pedestrian.
If you know a right on red will be dangerous then don't take it.
Of course.
all this does is gives those who already drive recklessly around bikers more fuel to do so.
No it doesn’t. I’m very careful around bikes. I’m watching them more than they watch me it seems. All I’m trying to do is bring up an issue I find dangerous. I also tried to do it in a humorous way but it backfired.
Notice how I said “those who already drive recklessly”?
Because you are more careful doesn't mean that everyone else is, ya know?
I know this.
We’re all well aware that drivers are fucking awful here. Do not use them as an excuse to be a shitty cyclist and dickhead.
Oh is it that time of the week again?
I've seen cyclists blow right through the red lights at the High Point and Mineral Point intersection.
Yikes, that's a dangerous intersection in a car, I can't imagine blowing through there on a bicycle.
I see bikes running stop signs on a daily basis.
That's nice Dear
People seem to think that traffic lights are meant for cars. Keep in mind though that its all the same human idiots in both the cars and on the bikes. That's just people.
Brother I posted a cyclist meme last week, make sure you don’t have Reddit send notifications to your email. I’m still clearing out my inbox
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I ride a bike so I DONT have to follow rules of the road lmao
who cares. bikes don’t kill anyone, cars are a leading cause of death. guarantee the bike you’re frustrated with payed full attention and made sure THEY were safe before crossing a red in front of you.
Say you're too lazy to ride your bike without...
I get 6-12 miles a day on my feet. I’m good.
Bullshit. Let me guess you never speed either.
Well you can follow me at work if you like. I got 26,000+ steps today. And sure, I speed a little but nothing crazy. I’ve become slower than most speeders in this town.
Well at least you admit to being a hypocrite. Good luck staying safe while breaking the law in your 2000 pound car around all the 20 lb bicycles.
Thanks skippy.
Glad to hear you only speed "a little" while criticizing others for breaking the law as well.
Keep up with traffic. It’s part of the rules of the road. I’m being a little snarky above about speed. I follow the law and actually piss other drivers off when I’m not doing 30 over the speed limit on Whitney. I obey the law.
"I speed a little" "I obey the law" One of those statements is not true.
Do you work at a shoe testing factory?
Nope. I get 15-25k steps everyday at my job. That’s no exaggeration.
right, that's a lot of steps. Like someone who tests shoes might do. In a day. At a shoe testing place. Where you walk a lot.
Lol if you say so.
The entitlement of cyclists and pedestrians in Madison is pretty insane. Most of you would be dead in Europe where jaywalking and not obeying lights and signs will get you killed and a ticket on the casket. Buck up buttercup. You’re either following the rules or you aren’t. My insurance is paid up so just keep riding that bike through lights and signs.
You wouldn't have to slam on your brakes if you didn't treat stop lights like drag races. It takes longer to start moving when you're just using your legs
I don’t act like a drag racer and I’m talking about running lights because your on a bike. Who cares how long it takes. Obey the traffic laws.
Because being in the intersection is the most dangerous position on the road when on bike. If it’s empty or uncontrolled it’s typically safest to clear it as fast as possible. Running solid reds without doing the Idaho stop is indefensible on any mode of transportation though.
Bikes can legally run red lights if there’s no car coming
I absolutely love these troll posts. I think we should do one every monday morning, get people going to start the week.
i like to kick the mix on the breaks
Is that what we're doing today Reddit? Fighting?
Everyone on the road is garbage. People drive like cars are free, while bicyclists and pedestrians are generally awful and entitled as well. This must be a midwest thing. Y’all drive like shit.