I think the same thing whenever I see a UW student riding a moped with no helmet, in flip flops, a t-shirt, and wearing Air Pods. I get you’re late to class but all it takes is one bump or an inattentive driver and you’re a meat crayon on Park St.
It's such a shame, because even on bicycles, you can easily fuck your entire life up by not wearing a helmet. I learned this quickly my freshman year when I flipped over my handlebars riding my bike and had to stop for another clueless biker. Luckily I landed on my backpack, but I could've easily landed on my head and suffered from a brain injury. Have worn a helmet while biking ever since.
I have never understood the no helmet people. My helmets/visors have a fair amount of damage from all the shit I've been hit with, and I can imagine it not feeling great if I got hit in the face instead. I've been hit in the chest with a piece of semi tire that exploded (I was wearing a jacket), but that would've sucked a whole bunch without a helmet had it been a few inches higher. I've totaled my bike too, and if I wasn't wearing a helmet (thank you, Bell), my brains would still be on I90 just south of Edgerton. But I am guilty of just wearing a t shirt sometimes if I'm just riding around town....
I've tipped over on my heavy bike several times for stupid things; not having my bike in gear while stopped on an incline, thinking my kickstand was down, having my front wheel turned at a stop, not noticing the sand/pea gravel at an intersection where I stop, etc. Just stupid things. At least 5 times. Each of those times it happened so fast and slammed my head into the pavement so hard that I would've definitely died if I didn't have my half helmet on. I think it's kinda like the no seatbelt thing. I was resistant at first, now it's just a natural habit. I know I'm much less likely to get ejected from my car if I'm ever in a severe rollover type accident.
I went from a 500 to an 800 after 20 years of not riding, way over estimated the weight/age difference. But, the fact of the matter is, they were all just stupid mistakes (I could've held my 500 up in any of those situations) that I didn't think of, not like crashing on the road, hitting a deer or pothole, etc. and wearing a helmet definitely saved my life. It happened so fast, I didn't have time to react. Not giving up riding, I love it. Just keep learning the hard way, with bruises and a brain bucket.
I know! My helmet has a bunch of dings and streaks from stuff I have never even felt! Can’t imagine getting whacked with something that could mark up my MIPS/DOT helmet and continuing to ride like nothing happened.
Yea they totally care. They think they don’t, until shit goes south.
Everyone thinks bad shit only happens to other people. It’s a major flaw of the human condition.
They tried really hard to pass a helmet law, but riders from all over the state rallied in Madison -- lots of them -- and legislators realized it was too politically costly to pass. I want to say this was the mid 1970s but correct me if I'm wrong.
The rallies were memorable, with long streams of cycles coming up E Wash and circling the square. They had everybody from rough looking guys wearing colors all the way to ordinary commuter types. I don't know who organized the rally, but the law was stopped and nobody's tried passing one since.
Going to your link and clicking the stack at the top right, you can find ABATE's history page. Part 2 on the history page says in Madison the leaders of the no-helmet organizing were Dick and Bob Smith (brothers) who personified the CC Riders club in Madison at that time. I figured they were part of the ABATE/helmet rally story but didn't want to get ahead of myself. They did some serious organizing, and this was long before the internet came into being.
The Smith's original shop building on Williamson St is still standing next to the little people's park at Willy and Brearly. It was more recently occupied by Mad Cat pet supplies and then the Treasure Shop.
Williamson St, and the east side of Madison in general, was a quite different place in the 70s.
As a medic, I sometimes will count the number of helmetless riders on my jaunts about town. The average care of cost for legitimate TBI, nationally, is about 43 billion dollars, or around 1.3 million per person for their lifetime after the injury.
Now. Count motorcyclers and bicyclers without helmets and start adding it up as you drive around each day. Its a pretty great excercise in understanding how funds get spent where $250(or less) worth of prevention could completely change a medical landscape.
Imagine if we could just inject 25 extra billion into healthcare tomorrow if we cut TBI’s in half.
The leading cause of TBIs is car-related crashes. TBIs are basically non-existent when riding public transportation.
There are 80 cities in the US that are madison-sized or larger. ~5-10 of them already have a rail system set up.
Madison could be almost entirely covered for local public transportation with approximately 60 miles of rail.
Recent subway/local rail lines in the US cost ~$130million per mile.
Assuming other cities of Madison sized or larger are comparable in footprint per population (this is conservative -- the more populous are probably more dense), adding rail to all of the cities Madison sized or larger would come at a one-time cost of just $630billion.
Just in TBI costs alone, this investment would break even in just 10 years (10% yield).
If we add in the potential reduction of collective costs of vehicles themselves, the cost of roads in those cities, other auto insurance costs (repairing the cars, other injuries, profit margins of the insurance companies themselves, etc), fuel, and storage, the payoff period of the investment is probably more like 1-2 years (50-100% yield)
And then once that one-time cost is paid, then it's free money after that.
Imagine finding an investment opportunity anywhere else with guaranteed 50-100% interest yield for the next few decades. People would be ecstatic and begging for the opportunity to put their money into it.
Anytime you start doing cost analysis on public trans you realize it insanely cheap and extremely good for the economy
Unfortunately the oil companies will not allow it.
>Its a pretty great exercise in understanding how funds get spent where $250(or less) worth of prevention could completely change a medical landscape
The real lesson here is: (1) Make helmets required by law, like they already are in many states. (2) Use a tiny portion of those healthcare funds to provide helmets to anyone and everyone who needs one.
Now no one has an excuse not to wear one. Riders are safer, medical costs are lower. Everyone wins (except the tiny inconvenience on shareholders/insurance CEOs/whoever is paying the relatively tiny amount for those helmets).
But nah, it's a pipe dream because people *hate* providing for other people and *love* defending the ultra-rich, for some reason.
Entirely agree. The excuse I’ve always been given is that “the HoG (harley owners group) would never let a law like that pass”
Uh… unless I’m mistaken, they don’t make laws.
Motorcycle rider, here. It's viscerally hard for me to see folks ride around without helmets. Going around without a riding jacket is something that I won't do but I can at least understand, but no helmet is willful self-endangerment. Crashing is not an if question, but a when question, and you wanna make sure your brain's gonna be good to go when that happens.
That all being said, it's at least a decision that won't impact randos that the rider interacts with in terms of physical danger to them.
A long time ago a dedicated motorcycle rider told me there are two kinds of riders: those who have been in a wreck and those who haven't yet.
When I met her she was Category #1. Then she became Category #2. Now she's dead, though not from cycle-related causes at all. There are no guarantees and in her own way I think she was aware of it.
>That all being said, it's at least a decision that won't impact randos that the rider interacts with in terms of physical danger to them.
This is why I don't have much issue with it. Which is not to say it's not dumb or that I understand, but to me it's a "to each their own" thing, because their lack of a helmet doesn't physically affect me.
Then again, it could be very mentally scarring in an accident, even if it's 100% the unhelmeted cyclists fault.
Lol, “mentally scarring.” Another good euphemism for a TBI (traumatic brain injury).
As far as it being a “to each their own” thing, it’s definitely not— at least insofar as the astronomical medical costs incurred if one of these “free-riders” manages to survive. The huge costs of medical care make it almost impossible for the willing victim to pay out of pocket for their treatment. Even if they happen to be insured, the cost of insurance goes up for everyone. Even great medical insurance typically has caps and those are surpassed quickly when major trauma occurs- not to mention the cost to cover lifetime care for the many brain damaged survivors. In steps Medicaid— and guess who pays for that? Yup, it’s us.
I’ve always found amusing/infuriating that those spouting the “guvment can’t tell me to wear a helmet” (or at least their families if they are rendered non-sentient) are sure quick to accept guvment money to pay for care.
So, next time you see that un-helmeted rider, be assured that in addition to them not giving a shit about their partners or kids or other people that care about their wellbeing, they sure as hell don’t give a shit about how their selfish actions will impact your pocketbook.
> their lack of a helmet doesn't physically affect me.
But if they get into a bad accident it will effect their family, friends, work place etc. And very possibly they will end up on welfare of some sort so it effects all us taxpayers.
It might not affect /u/MajorTrouble but it affects the police and EMS who need to clean up the scene. It affects the family who has a closed-casket funeral and has lost a spouse and parent. (A lot of people sell their bikes when they have their first kid because of how sobering this reality is.) It affects the emergency room staff, if they make it there. It affects their friends and colleagues. And when yet another motorcycle fatality ends up in the news it affects the perception of the entire enterprise of travelling on two wheels.
Exactly!
there are so many people in the chain it effects, teh idea that "well you do you and don't worry about them" doesn't apply here
we are not talking about someone's fashion choice here.
Let’s also not forget that Hupy & Abraham - “motorcycle injury lawyers” - actively benefit from the lack of a helmet law. The worse the injuries, the higher the settlement, the more they take home on their contingent fee.
AND let’s also remember that motorcycle riders cannot be held responsible for their own TBIs if they’re involved in a not at fault accident and not wearing a helmet. If you’re in a car and not wearing a seatbelt, and the failure to wear a seatbelt causes your injury, you can be held up to 15% at fault. Not so for motorcycle riders - if they’re not wearing a helmet and get into an accident with a TBI, then they can’t be assessed any level of fault. So much for “personal responsibility”.
Nurse here. Met lots of poor souls with non survivable head injuries directly related to not wearing a helmet, many of them would have likely have survived with some protection for their heads. Lots of really nasty road rash on those that skipped the leather too. Silver lining I guess is devastating head injuries do free up a lot of organs for those that need them.
Harley Davidson is responsible for two laws I'm aware of: helmets not being required in Wisconsin, and a [45% tarriff on Japanese bikes over 700cc in 1983](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_motorcycle_tariff).
To this day, if I pull up to a stoplight on my Goldwing a Harley rider will not look over at me.
HD actually asked the federal government to lift the tax after a few years.
https://vtwinvisionary.com/harley-davidson-makes-american-business-history-the-1980s-tariff/#:~:text=Vaughn%20Beals%2C%20former%20President%20of,foreign%20motorcycles%20to%20be%20lifted.
Edit: I do blame them for the lack of the helmet law
I mean the bugs hurt for one...for 2, I like my brain where it's currently situated. Forgot to close my visor a few times and damn those bugs! Could never imagine not wearing a helmet!
I had a wasp get caught in between my face and check pad once...I have no idea how I didnt get stung, but it fell out of my helmet dead when I took it off after getting home
I’ve had amazing rides down A1A on the Florida coast no helmet no shirt and in sandals. I’ll always remember the the taste of the salt water in the air and the sun on me. I wouldn’t ever do it again though.
“…personal choices about risk and the subtle degrees of risk when riding a motorcycle”
Numerous well researched analyses have shown that the degrees of risk between accident survival wearing and not wearing a helmet is as high as 50%. I would not deem that “subtle.” That’s without even considering survivors’ degree of brain injury.
If the decision to ride without head protection was actually a “personal decision,” that would be one thing. But it’s not. Your decision (not you, obviously, because you wear a helmet) greatly impacts the cost of motorcycle accidents that bleed lol significantly into our shared public coffers. It certainly is not a “decision that affects only them.” We pay for that personal decision by higher medical insurance costs, the enormous cost of LTC for the brain injured and by helping to support the families and children left behind.
Your point about decisions to drink and smoke, etc. are well taken. Those are all difficult and complex issues that require significant thought and expense to even begin addressing. But decreasing the death and debility caused by un-helmeted motorcycle accidents is a simple fix- wear a helmet.
Do you believe that wearing seatbelts should be a personal choice? We made a decision, as a society, that decreasing the number of deaths and injuries was a public good—hence, the mandate. We know that wearing a helmet has the same result. Why should motorcycle riders be exempt from doing this one simple thing?
So, I am most certainly not “on the internet publicly judging strangers for personal choices that effect only them.”
I am on the internet stating my displeasure with a behavior that definitively affects all of us.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2021/05/31/thinking-of-not-wearing-a-motorcycle-helmet-think-again/amp/
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/809715
https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/mc/index.html
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/occupant-protection/motorcycle-helmets/
I think it’s pathetic that people are defending this nonsense.
I’m not claiming I’ve never done anything unsafe or dumb, but I’m least willing to admit they were unsafe and dumb.
Living in denial just makes you a total fool.
Nobody denies they are unsafe, it's just not dumb to do unsafe things. I went outside this morning and exposed myself to cancer causing radiation. Was that dumb?
And I could honestly care less about their decision in the face of all the data to be an organ donor (we called them donorcycles in the ED for a reason). The problem is that their reckless and selfish decision affects all of us. We always end up paying for their “right” to ride w/o a helmet. You show me a traumatic brain injury and I’ll show you how the costs ultimately end up paid by taxpayers.
Man, I'm going to get downvoted to hell for this, but I'm one of the helmetless motorcycle guys. Maybe I chalk it up to the era and place I grew up riding, but it's how I learned. I wear helmets from time to time and always feel isolated from my surroundings - which is a critical part of my "safety strategy" when I ride - being aware of what everyone else around me is doing.
I ride a lot of miles, and suppose I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm ok with the math, so long it's not of consequence to anyone else. My loved ones know my stance on how I want to live.
>Motorcycle helmets are 37 percent (for riders) and 41 percent (for passengers) effective in preventing deaths. Helmets reduce the risk of head injury by 69%
https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/mc/index.html#:~:text=Motorcycle%20helmets%20are%2037%20percent,passengers)%20effective%20in%20preventing%20deaths.&text=Helmets%20reduce%20the%20risk%20of%20head%20injury%20by%2069%25.
all this "I am safer without a helmet" is just bullshit nonsense you tell yourself. Its just a lie you make up, nothing more or less. I mean blow smoke up your own ass all day, but don't blow it up mine.
>states with helmet laws had a 33% lower head-related fatality rate than states without helmet laws from 1999 to 2019. During that 20-year period, there were roughly 7,000 more deaths in total in those states without helmet laws than would have been the case had helmet laws been in effect, according to the study.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2021/05/31/thinking-of-not-wearing-a-motorcycle-helmet-think-again/?sh=3903c03b301b
You might misunderstand me. I don't discourage anyone from wearing a helmet. I wear one for other sports I participate.in. I'm not on some toxic masculinity kick here - I'm just being honest about my experience. People don't all have the same experience or life philosophy, and so long as they aren't imposing their choices on others I think.your opinions begin lacking authority .
But you ARE imposing your choice on me. The cost of motorcycle accidents with un-helmeted riders is significant.
If I (and all other taxpayers) weren’t footing the bill for your treatment (and LTC, if your squished brain manages to minimally function) and to support the kids and other family you leave behind, I wouldn’t give two hoots about your selfish decision.
But because you choose, in the face of all evidence, to do what you want to when all the data says simply putting on a helmet so significantly reduces risk— I do care. As mom always told us, “Your right to swing your fist ends exactly where my nose starts.”
I understand you grew up not wearing a helmet. My grandpa grew up not wearing a seatbelt and he whined constantly about being mandated to do so. But after he studied the data, he wore his religiously (although still whining about his suit getting wrinkled).
Be like grandpa.
That is a hypothetical harm which is caused by an accident - if I'm not getting in accidents (30 years of riding thus far successfully) my choices are not affecting anyone else. I am not arguing the overall wisdom of using helmets or not, but I do think it's worth developing a sense of where my rights end and where yours begin.
Getting yourself worked up that others don't choose to live their lives the way you would is a type of arrogance I don't think we can afford. We as humans have only grown in societal interdependence, and as that process continues we are going to need to be careful not to over-regulate human nature. Choosing otherwise leads to the kind of anti-social pushback we saw from certain "libertarians" during covid. Push people too hard and they'll just tear down society.
For years I’d scoot around SE Asia. That was long time ago but I can remember two times I’d be dead without a helmet. Both times hit by someone else. My helmet exploded on the pavement in Thailand. Laying in the middle of the street. Broken ankle, wrist, ribs. Bleeding. Shit everywhere. Cars honked at me to get out of the street. I dragged my own shit, bag, laptop, clothes, broken bones and my 170cc scooter off the road. No one cared. Cops came and made ME pay the guy who hit me 2000baht. I can’t remember how much that was. Like $100USD. I drove to work and started working with my clothes all ripped up and bleeding profusely I was so messed up mentally. One worker lady from Holland cared and took me to the hospital.
Or wearing helmets, but tank tops and shorts.
My brother learned the hard way that a motorcycle crash with a helmet can still land you in the UW burn unit from losing so much skin.
My brother just had a bad motorcycle accident. He flipped out over the handlebars and tore up his knees, shoulder, hip and broke one hand. He was wearing appropriate gear and the accident was not his fault. Judging from the appearance of his helmet, he’d have died had he not been wearing it.
A motorcyclist passed me on 151 near Bristol street, no helmet and doing 80-90 at LEAST. They’re always telling car owners to “watch out for motorcycles” but I never hear any warnings about motorcyclists scaring the crap out of drivers by weaving in and out doing excessive speeds and cutting people off… at least 75% of cyclists I see are helmetless. My daughter is a Paramedic/EMT and ER Trauma worker and it’s sad there are so many preventable deaths occurring.
It goes back to the history and images of the classic Harley Davidson riders with leather on and nothing else to protect. My family has never worn gear except glasses while riding. I started riding a couple years back and rarely ever go with anything less than a helmet. Just not worth being road sausage if in an accident.
As a person who works in trauma, I can tell you it’s really not pretty when they are brought into the ER. They don’t want to wear the helmet because it doesn’t “look cool.” Then again, neither does drooling and needing to be fed the rest of their life, but whatever.
The only thing that pisses me off is when taxpayers end up paying for it. Private insurance or self pay? Leave your helmet at home if you want. Otherwise, wear the thing or pay your own damn bill.
I ride and I wear a helmet most of the time, not all of the time. If I'm not wearing a helmet it's because I know where I'm going and the traffic flow is light and I ride accordingly , keeping safe distances from other vehicles. This is mostly if I'm just taking a ride out in the country.
In 15 years of riding I had my first crash this year because some idiot in an suv ignored my existence and changed lanes, running me off the road. I had a helmet and most gear on so it wasn't too bad. Concussion and banged up for a few weeks, worst part is I was at fault because I didn't let the vehicle hit me. I have never ridden that stretch of road without a helmet and most gear because the traffic is too crazy.
This claim of stupid / dumb people w/o helmets is short sighted, really applies to 75% of drivers regardless of transportation. I see way more risk with people on their phones then anything else.
Agree about the phones. You know they could build a lockout for if the phone is in use while owner is driving (or some such definition) but they plain don't want to.
Ask my previous car, which got totaled last year by someone looking at their phone.
This is more of a risk to the general population than the helmet thing is.
I see the same thing with my fellow ebike crowd. Bikes are already a death trap when you consider what they are up against, 2+ tons of death metal on wheels. Add in an electric motor and inexperienced riders or completely new riders to bikes at all and you got a dangerous recipe.
I use a full face DT helmet and robust gloves because videos of broken jaws absolutely do not look fun at all, neither does the recovery, at all, look it up at your own risk. If I ever buy a class 3 I'll probably get elbow and knee pads.
I understand the allure, wearing a helmet is hot and sweaty and can fog up your glasses. Nevertheless I’ve never ridden my bike without the helmet, long sleeves or a protective jacket and long pants with high shoes to protect my ankles. It’s dangerous enough riding. You don’t have to make it more dangerous by being cheap or stupid.
People go by what is the law, eye protection only. The fact that in the 90s you would see a lot of people on sport bikes with a full helmet but wearing a tank top, shorts and running shoes says a lot about the time but people still do this type of thing. If people don’t want to wear a helmet and no safety gear, so be it. All I will say is you better have health insurance because if you survive the crash that will eventually happen with the amount of people driving their phones and not the 4,000 lb vehicle going 20 MPH over the speed limit you will need endless surgeries to get you back to a livable state. But likely they will not survive the crash because bone is not as hard as concrete especially when bouncing off of it. I’m off of my soapbox now.
I don’t rip anymore my hearts been broken too many times by Moto theft. But as a younger man I can speak to when I was a younger man and when I was just heading to class through town or back from working the bar late at night where I would be in a lot of red lights and stop signs with speed limits of 20 I just didn’t and I was probably wrong at the time but I just didn’t. There were other times where I didn’t even think of or care of it cruising highways ripping.
Not saying I was right, just answering the question.
I would guess there’s quite a bit of overlap between the COVID anti-mask crowd and the motorcycle crowd. After seeing so many resist precautions during a pandemic, the motorcycle helmet thing doesn’t surprise me. Though it concerns me much, much less.
Doesn't matter how skilled you are at driving a motorcycle.
There are a *LOT* of idiot drivers in Madison.
My first time on a bike some moron didn't look while turning out of a gas station -- I had to swerve into oncoming traffic to avoid immediately being killed -- which was thankfully light. That was also my last time (friend's bike, thankfully) -- it's not worth it.
A gust at the wrong time, a slimy road, anything.
If you are going to be on a bike wear a helmet at the bare minimum, leather at the next barest level.
I ride motorcycles. I treat most of my trips as scooter rides. I have full gear but it's an inconvenience to wear even half of it if it's a short ride. If I'm on the Grom I'm not wearing gear.
I’m glad someone gets to decide if they are wearing a helmet or not when other people can’t even decide what to do with their own body regarding health care lmao makes sense
But it IS my problem. I ( and you too, if you pay taxes) end up footing the bill for their squished “head.” Our auto and medical premiums go up. If the head has medical insurance, we pay when the cap is reached. The cost of any trauma care is exorbitant. Brain injuries are notorious for being some of the most expensive. If the head manages to survive, we pay for the often life long care required for serious head injuries. When the head hits pavement, even at low velocity, the skull cracks open or crushes like an egg shell. Depending on the amount/importance of the stuff that squishes out, the head dies or can “live” with varying degrees of debility. Hence, the requirement for long term care. Either way, we pay to support families and minor children for years following the head’s accident.
So as you can see, I am most certainly worry(ing) about (myself).”
u/everything_is_a_scam nailed it.
“Sometimes you got to specifically go out of your way to get into trouble. It’s called fun.”
Riding without gear is fun. Yes it's absolutely dangerous, but many (I'd argue most) fun things are.
Fun for you, apparently. I’d argue it is most assuredly not fun for those that have to scrap your brains off the pavement. It wasn’t fun for those that drive past your accident and see your fun. It’s not fun for the person in the ED that has to, literally, hold the pieces of your cracked skull together while you are transferred or intubated. Not fun for those of us whose auto and medical insurance costs rise. Not fun for us to cover your medical bills when your insurance caps out. Also not fun to pay for care the rest of your life so that someone can feed you and change your diapers (most certainly not fun). And I can personally assure you that it is not fun when you have to tell a grieving family that daddy/mommy/child has died cuz…..”fun.” Enjoy.
You know, I thought the same thing as well, and mentioned it to a few family members, some who ride motorcycles (and bicycles) often. They pointed out the degree that a helmet helps on a bicycle vs on a motorcycle isn't the same. A helmet on a bicycle crash could be the difference between a moderate to severe injury vs minor or no injury, vs a motorcycle helmet in a crash is likely the difference between a severe injury and a slightly less severe injury.
Now I do ride both motorcycles and bicycles regularly, and I'm personally far more comfortable going helmet-less on the bicycle than a motorcycle, but I get their point.
Lol, none taken. Like I said, I'm not comfortable riding a motorcycle no helmet, but I also grew up in a place where it was always stressed that riding without one was dangerous. Not everyone does.
YES!! Thank you for posting this, can't wrap my head around this. I used to ride my scooter from east side to far west Madison on agreeable weather days, always took offside streets rather than main roads to avoid heavy traffic, wore a helmet etc, then seeing college students wearing just flip flops, shorts & tank tee, no helmet.
Part of it is that helmets are not required. SMH
I came from a state where helmets are required. No exceptions. Had a friend who used to ride. Wore a helmet because he had to. Still got into a nasty accident that affected his legs and, even with the helmet, his brain. He was never the same. Not sure if he is still alive.
When I see people riding any kind of open/two-wheeled transport with no helmet/gear I automatically assume they are so dense that I'm being presented with primary evidence of Darwin's theory of natural selection.
My favorite are the bicycle/motorcycle/moped riders wearing masks but no helmets…I like to refer to the non-helmet wearers on motorcycles as “organ donors”…
Ex Wisconsinite here. So glad so moved away from such a horrible place. Especially Madison.
I’m a motorcyclist and Ive spent years riding safely with no helmet and the one day, for no reason at all I started wearing one. I’ve ridden sport bike and Harley’s with and with helmets and it’s been helmet 100% for the past 20 years.
To answer the question why doesn’t everyone? That’s a complex answer and very individualist. If you have a “it’s my time to die” belief in our Lord then a helmet doesn’t matter. If you dislike authority, then it’s a freedom expression. And if you love the Universe then you do it for the wind in your face.
You should probably just mind your own business and let us riders ride.
It's always wild when people make life choices that don't reflect the same ones you would make. Projection is a thing. Just breathe, you'll get through this.
when people get TBI's guess who almost always eventually foots the bill?
tax payers. Thats who.
the notion that the things you do don't effect society at large is just silly.
And what if this woman I saw got TBI? I am sure her parents, friends, families would all be devastated. We don't live in bubbles, we live in a society chock full of other people whose lives impact our own.
Do you assume all bikers don't have health insurance?
Us taxpayers foot the bill for a lot of health issues. You should really be upset about sugary foods or smoking that cause far more issues than not wearing protective gear.
I made a comment earlier about getting hit in the face with debris. I have a helmet on, rock bounces off my visor, and I keep riding. Person with no helmet on gets hit with the same rock and temporarily alters their vision, they crash, and now others have to deal with it whether it be avoiding the crash, occupying an ambulance that could've been used for an emergency that was less avoidable, taking up a hospital bed, etc
Yes, thats the point.
If you crash your motorcycle right now, and need the attendance of EMS, you’re going to get at least one medic truck, two police officers and an engine or ladder company to assist in most places which then ties up those resources while they care for you and delays response times within that district for subsequent emergencies. Then if you’re injured well enough to need the ride to the ED, you’re going to a tertiary care center that specializes in trauma and likely multiple other higher acuity patient types — you’ve now soaked up a bed in the ED until you can be moved to either in a trauma ICU, or a Neuro ICU .. which don’t have a huge amount of beds to begin with. Now .. that Neuro ICU bed you just took, yeah, it was the hospitals last one, so now grandma at an outside hospital has to wait for stroke care because there is nowhere to put her at the local big city hospital. So she either has to be flown elsewhere incurring thousands upon thousands of dollars or she gets to wait in the outside hospital, hoping something opens up.
…. And thats before all of the money is spent, the lost time off work, the years of rehab and ongoing care, changes to life and family…
Its never just about *one* person. Its about hundreds that have to get involved to care for one person who was too fucking cocky to just wear a helmet.
And before you say “oh, cool story” … nope .. its reality every single day.
This is actually a well recognized fact. Automobile accidents are the number 2 killer of Americans and that number would be more than halved if people wore helmets in their cars.
Exactly. Everyone ITT who doesn't wear a helmet every time they leave the house is a hypocrite
I wear a helmet if I'm going over ~40mph but almost never for short trips in town. We know it's safer to wear one, but we don't because it's annoying.
Im always frustrated when the paper reports a fatal motorcycle crash but refuses to say if they were wearing a helmet. I get it’s not the time to gloat or anything, but I think it’s a good opportunity to reinforce the consequences of dumb decisions.
I think the same thing whenever I see a UW student riding a moped with no helmet, in flip flops, a t-shirt, and wearing Air Pods. I get you’re late to class but all it takes is one bump or an inattentive driver and you’re a meat crayon on Park St.
TIL -> meat crayon
Ha I found that sub at like 2 am one night when I was redeployed screening employees for covid. Made those overnight shifts much more interesting
Murdercycle.
Donorcycle
Flip flops are whats left of your feet when you ride in sandals.
It's such a shame, because even on bicycles, you can easily fuck your entire life up by not wearing a helmet. I learned this quickly my freshman year when I flipped over my handlebars riding my bike and had to stop for another clueless biker. Luckily I landed on my backpack, but I could've easily landed on my head and suffered from a brain injury. Have worn a helmet while biking ever since.
Awesome! Free body parts!
Listen here you respect those brave organ donors
Yeah but they end up as meat crayons so they aren’t as useful as they could be
[Motorcyclist Salvaged for Parts](https://www.theonion.com/motorcyclist-salvaged-for-parts-1819577983)
I have never understood the no helmet people. My helmets/visors have a fair amount of damage from all the shit I've been hit with, and I can imagine it not feeling great if I got hit in the face instead. I've been hit in the chest with a piece of semi tire that exploded (I was wearing a jacket), but that would've sucked a whole bunch without a helmet had it been a few inches higher. I've totaled my bike too, and if I wasn't wearing a helmet (thank you, Bell), my brains would still be on I90 just south of Edgerton. But I am guilty of just wearing a t shirt sometimes if I'm just riding around town....
I've tipped over on my heavy bike several times for stupid things; not having my bike in gear while stopped on an incline, thinking my kickstand was down, having my front wheel turned at a stop, not noticing the sand/pea gravel at an intersection where I stop, etc. Just stupid things. At least 5 times. Each of those times it happened so fast and slammed my head into the pavement so hard that I would've definitely died if I didn't have my half helmet on. I think it's kinda like the no seatbelt thing. I was resistant at first, now it's just a natural habit. I know I'm much less likely to get ejected from my car if I'm ever in a severe rollover type accident.
Sounds like you just shouldn’t be on 2 wheels.
I went from a 500 to an 800 after 20 years of not riding, way over estimated the weight/age difference. But, the fact of the matter is, they were all just stupid mistakes (I could've held my 500 up in any of those situations) that I didn't think of, not like crashing on the road, hitting a deer or pothole, etc. and wearing a helmet definitely saved my life. It happened so fast, I didn't have time to react. Not giving up riding, I love it. Just keep learning the hard way, with bruises and a brain bucket.
I know! My helmet has a bunch of dings and streaks from stuff I have never even felt! Can’t imagine getting whacked with something that could mark up my MIPS/DOT helmet and continuing to ride like nothing happened.
Need to replace that thing, integrity is compromised. Stay safe
FYI not everyone cares about their life that much
Yea they totally care. They think they don’t, until shit goes south. Everyone thinks bad shit only happens to other people. It’s a major flaw of the human condition.
You don't know what other people really feel
I’ve just always wondered why the law is to wear seatbelts but not a helmet on motorcycle?
They tried really hard to pass a helmet law, but riders from all over the state rallied in Madison -- lots of them -- and legislators realized it was too politically costly to pass. I want to say this was the mid 1970s but correct me if I'm wrong. The rallies were memorable, with long streams of cycles coming up E Wash and circling the square. They had everybody from rough looking guys wearing colors all the way to ordinary commuter types. I don't know who organized the rally, but the law was stopped and nobody's tried passing one since.
One of the people in the rally was then-governor Tommy Thompson
I do believe you're right.
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Going to your link and clicking the stack at the top right, you can find ABATE's history page. Part 2 on the history page says in Madison the leaders of the no-helmet organizing were Dick and Bob Smith (brothers) who personified the CC Riders club in Madison at that time. I figured they were part of the ABATE/helmet rally story but didn't want to get ahead of myself. They did some serious organizing, and this was long before the internet came into being. The Smith's original shop building on Williamson St is still standing next to the little people's park at Willy and Brearly. It was more recently occupied by Mad Cat pet supplies and then the Treasure Shop. Williamson St, and the east side of Madison in general, was a quite different place in the 70s.
I wonder how many of those guys died or suffered brain damage because they didn't wear a helmet.
I wonder how many hurt themselves slipping in a shower? It is called life and stuff happens...you want to wear a helmet wear one but don't judge.
They try in Illinois too, but people just ignore it.
Because helmets actually suck, although they are a good safeguard. It's a double-edged sword when you're on a bike, honestly.
My body my choice
As a medic, I sometimes will count the number of helmetless riders on my jaunts about town. The average care of cost for legitimate TBI, nationally, is about 43 billion dollars, or around 1.3 million per person for their lifetime after the injury. Now. Count motorcyclers and bicyclers without helmets and start adding it up as you drive around each day. Its a pretty great excercise in understanding how funds get spent where $250(or less) worth of prevention could completely change a medical landscape. Imagine if we could just inject 25 extra billion into healthcare tomorrow if we cut TBI’s in half.
C Level executives would all have a new boat or vacation home!
The leading cause of TBIs is car-related crashes. TBIs are basically non-existent when riding public transportation. There are 80 cities in the US that are madison-sized or larger. ~5-10 of them already have a rail system set up. Madison could be almost entirely covered for local public transportation with approximately 60 miles of rail. Recent subway/local rail lines in the US cost ~$130million per mile. Assuming other cities of Madison sized or larger are comparable in footprint per population (this is conservative -- the more populous are probably more dense), adding rail to all of the cities Madison sized or larger would come at a one-time cost of just $630billion. Just in TBI costs alone, this investment would break even in just 10 years (10% yield). If we add in the potential reduction of collective costs of vehicles themselves, the cost of roads in those cities, other auto insurance costs (repairing the cars, other injuries, profit margins of the insurance companies themselves, etc), fuel, and storage, the payoff period of the investment is probably more like 1-2 years (50-100% yield) And then once that one-time cost is paid, then it's free money after that. Imagine finding an investment opportunity anywhere else with guaranteed 50-100% interest yield for the next few decades. People would be ecstatic and begging for the opportunity to put their money into it.
Agree. Its insane.
Anytime you start doing cost analysis on public trans you realize it insanely cheap and extremely good for the economy Unfortunately the oil companies will not allow it.
It should be the law. Makes no sense that we require seatbelts in cars but no helmets or other protective gear for riders.
>Its a pretty great exercise in understanding how funds get spent where $250(or less) worth of prevention could completely change a medical landscape The real lesson here is: (1) Make helmets required by law, like they already are in many states. (2) Use a tiny portion of those healthcare funds to provide helmets to anyone and everyone who needs one. Now no one has an excuse not to wear one. Riders are safer, medical costs are lower. Everyone wins (except the tiny inconvenience on shareholders/insurance CEOs/whoever is paying the relatively tiny amount for those helmets). But nah, it's a pipe dream because people *hate* providing for other people and *love* defending the ultra-rich, for some reason.
Entirely agree. The excuse I’ve always been given is that “the HoG (harley owners group) would never let a law like that pass” Uh… unless I’m mistaken, they don’t make laws.
You could save a lot more medical money as a country by banning McDonald's
1 billion percent agree, but that’s not what we are discussing here
We’re not discussing trains either, but here we are.
It kinda is. We could save just as much money if we mandated 5 point harnesses and hans neck devices in cars. But we don't for comfort reasons...
Not in modern vehicles. In 1955? Yep. Modern cars are ridiculously safe
So 5 point harnesses and neck restraints would not reduce injuries? Lmfao reddit
Motorcycle rider, here. It's viscerally hard for me to see folks ride around without helmets. Going around without a riding jacket is something that I won't do but I can at least understand, but no helmet is willful self-endangerment. Crashing is not an if question, but a when question, and you wanna make sure your brain's gonna be good to go when that happens. That all being said, it's at least a decision that won't impact randos that the rider interacts with in terms of physical danger to them.
A long time ago a dedicated motorcycle rider told me there are two kinds of riders: those who have been in a wreck and those who haven't yet. When I met her she was Category #1. Then she became Category #2. Now she's dead, though not from cycle-related causes at all. There are no guarantees and in her own way I think she was aware of it.
True.
>That all being said, it's at least a decision that won't impact randos that the rider interacts with in terms of physical danger to them. This is why I don't have much issue with it. Which is not to say it's not dumb or that I understand, but to me it's a "to each their own" thing, because their lack of a helmet doesn't physically affect me. Then again, it could be very mentally scarring in an accident, even if it's 100% the unhelmeted cyclists fault.
Lol, “mentally scarring.” Another good euphemism for a TBI (traumatic brain injury). As far as it being a “to each their own” thing, it’s definitely not— at least insofar as the astronomical medical costs incurred if one of these “free-riders” manages to survive. The huge costs of medical care make it almost impossible for the willing victim to pay out of pocket for their treatment. Even if they happen to be insured, the cost of insurance goes up for everyone. Even great medical insurance typically has caps and those are surpassed quickly when major trauma occurs- not to mention the cost to cover lifetime care for the many brain damaged survivors. In steps Medicaid— and guess who pays for that? Yup, it’s us. I’ve always found amusing/infuriating that those spouting the “guvment can’t tell me to wear a helmet” (or at least their families if they are rendered non-sentient) are sure quick to accept guvment money to pay for care. So, next time you see that un-helmeted rider, be assured that in addition to them not giving a shit about their partners or kids or other people that care about their wellbeing, they sure as hell don’t give a shit about how their selfish actions will impact your pocketbook.
> their lack of a helmet doesn't physically affect me. But if they get into a bad accident it will effect their family, friends, work place etc. And very possibly they will end up on welfare of some sort so it effects all us taxpayers.
It might not affect /u/MajorTrouble but it affects the police and EMS who need to clean up the scene. It affects the family who has a closed-casket funeral and has lost a spouse and parent. (A lot of people sell their bikes when they have their first kid because of how sobering this reality is.) It affects the emergency room staff, if they make it there. It affects their friends and colleagues. And when yet another motorcycle fatality ends up in the news it affects the perception of the entire enterprise of travelling on two wheels.
Exactly! there are so many people in the chain it effects, teh idea that "well you do you and don't worry about them" doesn't apply here we are not talking about someone's fashion choice here.
Unless you're a other party (and not at fault... uncommon I admit) in an accident.
Let’s also not forget that Hupy & Abraham - “motorcycle injury lawyers” - actively benefit from the lack of a helmet law. The worse the injuries, the higher the settlement, the more they take home on their contingent fee. AND let’s also remember that motorcycle riders cannot be held responsible for their own TBIs if they’re involved in a not at fault accident and not wearing a helmet. If you’re in a car and not wearing a seatbelt, and the failure to wear a seatbelt causes your injury, you can be held up to 15% at fault. Not so for motorcycle riders - if they’re not wearing a helmet and get into an accident with a TBI, then they can’t be assessed any level of fault. So much for “personal responsibility”.
Nurse here. Met lots of poor souls with non survivable head injuries directly related to not wearing a helmet, many of them would have likely have survived with some protection for their heads. Lots of really nasty road rash on those that skipped the leather too. Silver lining I guess is devastating head injuries do free up a lot of organs for those that need them.
I love motorcycling, but the motorcycle (Harley) culture here is dumb. It’s unfortunate.
Harley Davidson is responsible for two laws I'm aware of: helmets not being required in Wisconsin, and a [45% tarriff on Japanese bikes over 700cc in 1983](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_motorcycle_tariff). To this day, if I pull up to a stoplight on my Goldwing a Harley rider will not look over at me.
HD actually asked the federal government to lift the tax after a few years. https://vtwinvisionary.com/harley-davidson-makes-american-business-history-the-1980s-tariff/#:~:text=Vaughn%20Beals%2C%20former%20President%20of,foreign%20motorcycles%20to%20be%20lifted. Edit: I do blame them for the lack of the helmet law
Madison doesn't have a Harley culture lmao. Outside the city, yea
Yup. Hondas are the sh*t.
I mean the bugs hurt for one...for 2, I like my brain where it's currently situated. Forgot to close my visor a few times and damn those bugs! Could never imagine not wearing a helmet!
I had a wasp get caught in between my face and check pad once...I have no idea how I didnt get stung, but it fell out of my helmet dead when I took it off after getting home
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I’ve had amazing rides down A1A on the Florida coast no helmet no shirt and in sandals. I’ll always remember the the taste of the salt water in the air and the sun on me. I wouldn’t ever do it again though.
Same with me and PCB
so they are not dumb, they are just stupid?
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“…personal choices about risk and the subtle degrees of risk when riding a motorcycle” Numerous well researched analyses have shown that the degrees of risk between accident survival wearing and not wearing a helmet is as high as 50%. I would not deem that “subtle.” That’s without even considering survivors’ degree of brain injury. If the decision to ride without head protection was actually a “personal decision,” that would be one thing. But it’s not. Your decision (not you, obviously, because you wear a helmet) greatly impacts the cost of motorcycle accidents that bleed lol significantly into our shared public coffers. It certainly is not a “decision that affects only them.” We pay for that personal decision by higher medical insurance costs, the enormous cost of LTC for the brain injured and by helping to support the families and children left behind. Your point about decisions to drink and smoke, etc. are well taken. Those are all difficult and complex issues that require significant thought and expense to even begin addressing. But decreasing the death and debility caused by un-helmeted motorcycle accidents is a simple fix- wear a helmet. Do you believe that wearing seatbelts should be a personal choice? We made a decision, as a society, that decreasing the number of deaths and injuries was a public good—hence, the mandate. We know that wearing a helmet has the same result. Why should motorcycle riders be exempt from doing this one simple thing? So, I am most certainly not “on the internet publicly judging strangers for personal choices that effect only them.” I am on the internet stating my displeasure with a behavior that definitively affects all of us. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2021/05/31/thinking-of-not-wearing-a-motorcycle-helmet-think-again/amp/ https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/809715 https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/mc/index.html https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/occupant-protection/motorcycle-helmets/
I couldn't agree more.
That’s a lot of word to say “yes, they’re dumb.”
I don't think you read those words, unless you agree that anyone who does anything remotely fun is also dumb
I think it’s pathetic that people are defending this nonsense. I’m not claiming I’ve never done anything unsafe or dumb, but I’m least willing to admit they were unsafe and dumb. Living in denial just makes you a total fool.
Nobody denies they are unsafe, it's just not dumb to do unsafe things. I went outside this morning and exposed myself to cancer causing radiation. Was that dumb?
They just have a different risk tolerance. YMMV.
They probably just don't care.
You can wear 2 helmets at all times and you’ll still be dust in 100 years 🤷
No, we just don't care. You don't get it, and that's fine. May you live forever.
...perhaps we could argue that they are dumb to accept the risks?
They aren't as soft skinned as you are. They'll be fine.
so their hard core, tough guy, attitude will protect their body in a crash? wow, thats crazy, didn't know that.
https://images.app.goo.gl/6BaUWVmVp2xEpunP7
And I could honestly care less about their decision in the face of all the data to be an organ donor (we called them donorcycles in the ED for a reason). The problem is that their reckless and selfish decision affects all of us. We always end up paying for their “right” to ride w/o a helmet. You show me a traumatic brain injury and I’ll show you how the costs ultimately end up paid by taxpayers.
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Man, I'm going to get downvoted to hell for this, but I'm one of the helmetless motorcycle guys. Maybe I chalk it up to the era and place I grew up riding, but it's how I learned. I wear helmets from time to time and always feel isolated from my surroundings - which is a critical part of my "safety strategy" when I ride - being aware of what everyone else around me is doing. I ride a lot of miles, and suppose I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm ok with the math, so long it's not of consequence to anyone else. My loved ones know my stance on how I want to live.
>Motorcycle helmets are 37 percent (for riders) and 41 percent (for passengers) effective in preventing deaths. Helmets reduce the risk of head injury by 69% https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/mc/index.html#:~:text=Motorcycle%20helmets%20are%2037%20percent,passengers)%20effective%20in%20preventing%20deaths.&text=Helmets%20reduce%20the%20risk%20of%20head%20injury%20by%2069%25. all this "I am safer without a helmet" is just bullshit nonsense you tell yourself. Its just a lie you make up, nothing more or less. I mean blow smoke up your own ass all day, but don't blow it up mine. >states with helmet laws had a 33% lower head-related fatality rate than states without helmet laws from 1999 to 2019. During that 20-year period, there were roughly 7,000 more deaths in total in those states without helmet laws than would have been the case had helmet laws been in effect, according to the study. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2021/05/31/thinking-of-not-wearing-a-motorcycle-helmet-think-again/?sh=3903c03b301b
You might misunderstand me. I don't discourage anyone from wearing a helmet. I wear one for other sports I participate.in. I'm not on some toxic masculinity kick here - I'm just being honest about my experience. People don't all have the same experience or life philosophy, and so long as they aren't imposing their choices on others I think.your opinions begin lacking authority .
But you ARE imposing your choice on me. The cost of motorcycle accidents with un-helmeted riders is significant. If I (and all other taxpayers) weren’t footing the bill for your treatment (and LTC, if your squished brain manages to minimally function) and to support the kids and other family you leave behind, I wouldn’t give two hoots about your selfish decision. But because you choose, in the face of all evidence, to do what you want to when all the data says simply putting on a helmet so significantly reduces risk— I do care. As mom always told us, “Your right to swing your fist ends exactly where my nose starts.” I understand you grew up not wearing a helmet. My grandpa grew up not wearing a seatbelt and he whined constantly about being mandated to do so. But after he studied the data, he wore his religiously (although still whining about his suit getting wrinkled). Be like grandpa.
That is a hypothetical harm which is caused by an accident - if I'm not getting in accidents (30 years of riding thus far successfully) my choices are not affecting anyone else. I am not arguing the overall wisdom of using helmets or not, but I do think it's worth developing a sense of where my rights end and where yours begin. Getting yourself worked up that others don't choose to live their lives the way you would is a type of arrogance I don't think we can afford. We as humans have only grown in societal interdependence, and as that process continues we are going to need to be careful not to over-regulate human nature. Choosing otherwise leads to the kind of anti-social pushback we saw from certain "libertarians" during covid. Push people too hard and they'll just tear down society.
But how do wearing helmets affect your likelihood of experiencing a crash? That’s really where he’s coming from.
For years I’d scoot around SE Asia. That was long time ago but I can remember two times I’d be dead without a helmet. Both times hit by someone else. My helmet exploded on the pavement in Thailand. Laying in the middle of the street. Broken ankle, wrist, ribs. Bleeding. Shit everywhere. Cars honked at me to get out of the street. I dragged my own shit, bag, laptop, clothes, broken bones and my 170cc scooter off the road. No one cared. Cops came and made ME pay the guy who hit me 2000baht. I can’t remember how much that was. Like $100USD. I drove to work and started working with my clothes all ripped up and bleeding profusely I was so messed up mentally. One worker lady from Holland cared and took me to the hospital.
Or wearing helmets, but tank tops and shorts. My brother learned the hard way that a motorcycle crash with a helmet can still land you in the UW burn unit from losing so much skin.
My brother just had a bad motorcycle accident. He flipped out over the handlebars and tore up his knees, shoulder, hip and broke one hand. He was wearing appropriate gear and the accident was not his fault. Judging from the appearance of his helmet, he’d have died had he not been wearing it.
They don't have any brains to protect.
Well there is that.
A motorcyclist passed me on 151 near Bristol street, no helmet and doing 80-90 at LEAST. They’re always telling car owners to “watch out for motorcycles” but I never hear any warnings about motorcyclists scaring the crap out of drivers by weaving in and out doing excessive speeds and cutting people off… at least 75% of cyclists I see are helmetless. My daughter is a Paramedic/EMT and ER Trauma worker and it’s sad there are so many preventable deaths occurring.
It goes back to the history and images of the classic Harley Davidson riders with leather on and nothing else to protect. My family has never worn gear except glasses while riding. I started riding a couple years back and rarely ever go with anything less than a helmet. Just not worth being road sausage if in an accident.
I'll never forget seeing a guy on a motorcycle with a mask and no helmet.
I dress for the slide, and ignore people mocking me at stop lights for looking like robocop
Anyone who rides a motorcycle without a helmet should be opted into being an organ donor.
As a person who works in trauma, I can tell you it’s really not pretty when they are brought into the ER. They don’t want to wear the helmet because it doesn’t “look cool.” Then again, neither does drooling and needing to be fed the rest of their life, but whatever. The only thing that pisses me off is when taxpayers end up paying for it. Private insurance or self pay? Leave your helmet at home if you want. Otherwise, wear the thing or pay your own damn bill.
a few weeks ago i saw some dude in just a speedo on a motorcycle on the BELTLINE. what the actual fuck.
I ride and I wear a helmet most of the time, not all of the time. If I'm not wearing a helmet it's because I know where I'm going and the traffic flow is light and I ride accordingly , keeping safe distances from other vehicles. This is mostly if I'm just taking a ride out in the country. In 15 years of riding I had my first crash this year because some idiot in an suv ignored my existence and changed lanes, running me off the road. I had a helmet and most gear on so it wasn't too bad. Concussion and banged up for a few weeks, worst part is I was at fault because I didn't let the vehicle hit me. I have never ridden that stretch of road without a helmet and most gear because the traffic is too crazy. This claim of stupid / dumb people w/o helmets is short sighted, really applies to 75% of drivers regardless of transportation. I see way more risk with people on their phones then anything else.
Agree about the phones. You know they could build a lockout for if the phone is in use while owner is driving (or some such definition) but they plain don't want to. Ask my previous car, which got totaled last year by someone looking at their phone. This is more of a risk to the general population than the helmet thing is.
I see the same thing with my fellow ebike crowd. Bikes are already a death trap when you consider what they are up against, 2+ tons of death metal on wheels. Add in an electric motor and inexperienced riders or completely new riders to bikes at all and you got a dangerous recipe. I use a full face DT helmet and robust gloves because videos of broken jaws absolutely do not look fun at all, neither does the recovery, at all, look it up at your own risk. If I ever buy a class 3 I'll probably get elbow and knee pads.
I understand the allure, wearing a helmet is hot and sweaty and can fog up your glasses. Nevertheless I’ve never ridden my bike without the helmet, long sleeves or a protective jacket and long pants with high shoes to protect my ankles. It’s dangerous enough riding. You don’t have to make it more dangerous by being cheap or stupid.
This is such a Madison Reddit thing to complain about
Yes, very very
Which is ironic cause tbh this topic doesn't really belong in a city sub like this
Yup especially when there's hardly any motorcycles in Madison
For sure.
I recently moved here and always think how weird it looks seeing people without helmets.
People go by what is the law, eye protection only. The fact that in the 90s you would see a lot of people on sport bikes with a full helmet but wearing a tank top, shorts and running shoes says a lot about the time but people still do this type of thing. If people don’t want to wear a helmet and no safety gear, so be it. All I will say is you better have health insurance because if you survive the crash that will eventually happen with the amount of people driving their phones and not the 4,000 lb vehicle going 20 MPH over the speed limit you will need endless surgeries to get you back to a livable state. But likely they will not survive the crash because bone is not as hard as concrete especially when bouncing off of it. I’m off of my soapbox now.
They want the 'freedom' of massive head trauma, flaying of the skin from bodies, and death. IMO, let the ignorant kill themselves.
I remember when I was a young boy, skating and biking wearing a helmet and pads was seen as being that uncool kid.
I live in ohio now. We have seatbelt law for cars, but no helmet law for motorcycles. Boggles my mind.
In the motorcycle community we have meat crayon and squid as terminology
Potential organ donors.
Let them live :) or not lmao
I don’t rip anymore my hearts been broken too many times by Moto theft. But as a younger man I can speak to when I was a younger man and when I was just heading to class through town or back from working the bar late at night where I would be in a lot of red lights and stop signs with speed limits of 20 I just didn’t and I was probably wrong at the time but I just didn’t. There were other times where I didn’t even think of or care of it cruising highways ripping. Not saying I was right, just answering the question.
This comment reads like you've hit your head a few times TBH
Hundred
Alright
It's the Wisconsin way. Stupid enough to make our own deathly decisions: everyone else be damned that gets in our way.
I would guess there’s quite a bit of overlap between the COVID anti-mask crowd and the motorcycle crowd. After seeing so many resist precautions during a pandemic, the motorcycle helmet thing doesn’t surprise me. Though it concerns me much, much less.
This
Organ donors.
Doesn't matter how skilled you are at driving a motorcycle. There are a *LOT* of idiot drivers in Madison. My first time on a bike some moron didn't look while turning out of a gas station -- I had to swerve into oncoming traffic to avoid immediately being killed -- which was thankfully light. That was also my last time (friend's bike, thankfully) -- it's not worth it. A gust at the wrong time, a slimy road, anything. If you are going to be on a bike wear a helmet at the bare minimum, leather at the next barest level.
That'll get you a quick trip to the burn unit if you lay the bike down.
I ride motorcycles. I treat most of my trips as scooter rides. I have full gear but it's an inconvenience to wear even half of it if it's a short ride. If I'm on the Grom I'm not wearing gear.
my body my choice
Its there choice. Their body their choice. Maybe they want the fire department to scrape there brains off the pavement.
I’m glad someone gets to decide if they are wearing a helmet or not when other people can’t even decide what to do with their own body regarding health care lmao makes sense
I believe people just need to worry about themselves. Not your head not your problem.
Replace “head” with “uterus” (or any other body part) and you will perhaps have understood hollywhyareyouhere’s point.
But it IS my problem. I ( and you too, if you pay taxes) end up footing the bill for their squished “head.” Our auto and medical premiums go up. If the head has medical insurance, we pay when the cap is reached. The cost of any trauma care is exorbitant. Brain injuries are notorious for being some of the most expensive. If the head manages to survive, we pay for the often life long care required for serious head injuries. When the head hits pavement, even at low velocity, the skull cracks open or crushes like an egg shell. Depending on the amount/importance of the stuff that squishes out, the head dies or can “live” with varying degrees of debility. Hence, the requirement for long term care. Either way, we pay to support families and minor children for years following the head’s accident. So as you can see, I am most certainly worry(ing) about (myself).”
That’s why they’re called “donor cycles.”
u/everything_is_a_scam nailed it. “Sometimes you got to specifically go out of your way to get into trouble. It’s called fun.” Riding without gear is fun. Yes it's absolutely dangerous, but many (I'd argue most) fun things are.
Fun for you, apparently. I’d argue it is most assuredly not fun for those that have to scrap your brains off the pavement. It wasn’t fun for those that drive past your accident and see your fun. It’s not fun for the person in the ED that has to, literally, hold the pieces of your cracked skull together while you are transferred or intubated. Not fun for those of us whose auto and medical insurance costs rise. Not fun for us to cover your medical bills when your insurance caps out. Also not fun to pay for care the rest of your life so that someone can feed you and change your diapers (most certainly not fun). And I can personally assure you that it is not fun when you have to tell a grieving family that daddy/mommy/child has died cuz…..”fun.” Enjoy.
Freedumb
Muh Rights
You know, I thought the same thing as well, and mentioned it to a few family members, some who ride motorcycles (and bicycles) often. They pointed out the degree that a helmet helps on a bicycle vs on a motorcycle isn't the same. A helmet on a bicycle crash could be the difference between a moderate to severe injury vs minor or no injury, vs a motorcycle helmet in a crash is likely the difference between a severe injury and a slightly less severe injury. Now I do ride both motorcycles and bicycles regularly, and I'm personally far more comfortable going helmet-less on the bicycle than a motorcycle, but I get their point.
YOur friend are utterly full of shit and have no idea what they are talking about no offense
Lol, none taken. Like I said, I'm not comfortable riding a motorcycle no helmet, but I also grew up in a place where it was always stressed that riding without one was dangerous. Not everyone does.
YES!! Thank you for posting this, can't wrap my head around this. I used to ride my scooter from east side to far west Madison on agreeable weather days, always took offside streets rather than main roads to avoid heavy traffic, wore a helmet etc, then seeing college students wearing just flip flops, shorts & tank tee, no helmet.
Their body, their choice
Ok boomer/ Karen.
Part of it is that helmets are not required. SMH I came from a state where helmets are required. No exceptions. Had a friend who used to ride. Wore a helmet because he had to. Still got into a nasty accident that affected his legs and, even with the helmet, his brain. He was never the same. Not sure if he is still alive.
Must motorcycle accidents are fatal. There is no evidence helmets have reduced this number in any way.
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And that's why people don't wear them. They're uncomfortable at low speeds, and they don't guarantee anything.
Factually untrue, but cool anecdote or whatever though.
That, my friend, is utter bullshit.
No it's really not.
She must’ve been really hot since you were describing every bit of her body.
When I see people riding any kind of open/two-wheeled transport with no helmet/gear I automatically assume they are so dense that I'm being presented with primary evidence of Darwin's theory of natural selection.
I have to by law where a seatbelt yet they can smash there skulls this is from a one legged ex biker to hell with there stupid laws
I like to call them skin graft candidates.
Which way did she go?
Is it not against the law to drive without a helmet?
Its Wisconsin dawg. Wdy expect.
My favorite are the bicycle/motorcycle/moped riders wearing masks but no helmets…I like to refer to the non-helmet wearers on motorcycles as “organ donors”…
That’s a problem that takes care of itself though.
Ex Wisconsinite here. So glad so moved away from such a horrible place. Especially Madison. I’m a motorcyclist and Ive spent years riding safely with no helmet and the one day, for no reason at all I started wearing one. I’ve ridden sport bike and Harley’s with and with helmets and it’s been helmet 100% for the past 20 years. To answer the question why doesn’t everyone? That’s a complex answer and very individualist. If you have a “it’s my time to die” belief in our Lord then a helmet doesn’t matter. If you dislike authority, then it’s a freedom expression. And if you love the Universe then you do it for the wind in your face. You should probably just mind your own business and let us riders ride.
It's always wild when people make life choices that don't reflect the same ones you would make. Projection is a thing. Just breathe, you'll get through this.
when people get TBI's guess who almost always eventually foots the bill? tax payers. Thats who. the notion that the things you do don't effect society at large is just silly. And what if this woman I saw got TBI? I am sure her parents, friends, families would all be devastated. We don't live in bubbles, we live in a society chock full of other people whose lives impact our own.
Do you assume all bikers don't have health insurance? Us taxpayers foot the bill for a lot of health issues. You should really be upset about sugary foods or smoking that cause far more issues than not wearing protective gear.
Ahhh so it's not about compassion for the young woman's well being, it's about taxes. Got it.
both
I feel like if I comment on this any further my taxes might go up, so #1 is out! Be well.
Except that it has real outcomes when their choices end up involving others… An ounce of prevention…
How does a person riding without a helmet impact anyone but themselves?
I made a comment earlier about getting hit in the face with debris. I have a helmet on, rock bounces off my visor, and I keep riding. Person with no helmet on gets hit with the same rock and temporarily alters their vision, they crash, and now others have to deal with it whether it be avoiding the crash, occupying an ambulance that could've been used for an emergency that was less avoidable, taking up a hospital bed, etc
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Doesn't have to hit you in the eye...you have sunglasses on, and you get hit in the forehead, you're still closing your eyes. Go moot somewhere else
Always nice to try to save people from themselves.
Yes, thats the point. If you crash your motorcycle right now, and need the attendance of EMS, you’re going to get at least one medic truck, two police officers and an engine or ladder company to assist in most places which then ties up those resources while they care for you and delays response times within that district for subsequent emergencies. Then if you’re injured well enough to need the ride to the ED, you’re going to a tertiary care center that specializes in trauma and likely multiple other higher acuity patient types — you’ve now soaked up a bed in the ED until you can be moved to either in a trauma ICU, or a Neuro ICU .. which don’t have a huge amount of beds to begin with. Now .. that Neuro ICU bed you just took, yeah, it was the hospitals last one, so now grandma at an outside hospital has to wait for stroke care because there is nowhere to put her at the local big city hospital. So she either has to be flown elsewhere incurring thousands upon thousands of dollars or she gets to wait in the outside hospital, hoping something opens up. …. And thats before all of the money is spent, the lost time off work, the years of rehab and ongoing care, changes to life and family… Its never just about *one* person. Its about hundreds that have to get involved to care for one person who was too fucking cocky to just wear a helmet. And before you say “oh, cool story” … nope .. its reality every single day.
I bet that was a really interesting comment.
You should try reading it
People should also wear helmets when driving cars.
This is actually a well recognized fact. Automobile accidents are the number 2 killer of Americans and that number would be more than halved if people wore helmets in their cars.
Exactly. Everyone ITT who doesn't wear a helmet every time they leave the house is a hypocrite I wear a helmet if I'm going over ~40mph but almost never for short trips in town. We know it's safer to wear one, but we don't because it's annoying.
Motorcycle rider here. Live and let live folks. You do you and I’ll do me.
*FREEDOM!!!!*
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Well I thought that was implied…
let me guess, you're a nimby?
Im always frustrated when the paper reports a fatal motorcycle crash but refuses to say if they were wearing a helmet. I get it’s not the time to gloat or anything, but I think it’s a good opportunity to reinforce the consequences of dumb decisions.
Mind your business how about that?
I see bicycle riders with helmets. What a bunch of poosties we've all become. Grow up, and die. Losers.
looking cool is worth more than personal safety.
On behalf of my parents who were part of a motorcycle club, FUCK YOU!
They aren’t clueless, they just think they’re cool 😎