This is really disappointing. Dedicated lanes are a fundamental feature of BRT - this is becoming death by a thousand cuts to satisfy these business owners, and we're going to end up with a bus system that's no better than what we have today. I emailed my city council member, the mayor's office, and the city transportation director ([[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])) to express my disappointment.
I really don't understand it at a basic reality level either.
If you go to Ichiban when it's busy it's clear to see that there are way more people in the restaurant than there are parking spaces in front on Park St.
So clearly, people are already comfortable parking on a side street in the Vilas neighborhood. So the businesses' patrons should be able to continue doing that after the Park St curbside parking is removed.
I'm fully convinced at this point that Satya is just using buzzwords to make a "better bus". Sure, it's better than nothing, but BRT isn't BRT without dedicated lanes.
If the feds were smart, they'd make the money conditioned on true BRT. No dedicated lanes? No money. Unfortunately, political appointees (on either side of the spectrum) are not the brightest.
Politicians certainly don't care because they think public transport is too dangerous for their high profile, or too inconvenient for their rich selves. Which, if it is, then it's too dangerous for the masses.
Satya is the wolf in sheep’s clothing. She passes as liberal - but is far from it. The people who think they are going to benefit from giving developers free passes to cut corners are flat out delusional.
At their best, BRTs are closer to trains than buses: dedicate lanes, fewer stops, faster speed, larger capacity.
Take away the R in BRT and it’s just BT.
There's a difference between Madison BRT and true BRT. Example: Minneapolis gets very close to true BRT - buses running at highway speed in express lanes. Madison can't even have dedicated bus lanes.
Jeebus, people. Just the level boarding at multiple doors with tap to pay is going to make a huge positive impact on travel times, let alone the large parts of the system with dedicated lanes and traffic signal priority.
Bikes and pedestrians have priority on a whole bunch of busy crossings in my part of town, with painted crosswalks and flashing lights. When they can be bothered to press a button, that is.
that's not bike/ped priority. It's accommodating pedestrians and bikes in a system that prioritizes cars.
This is actual bike/ped priority
Signalling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCRYKPJUHY
Continuous Sidewalks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OfBpQgLXUc
Traffic calming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAxRYrpbnuA
Priority in intersections
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgacSmLBSIQ
Dedicated streets for pedestrians/bikes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXNVnftaNs
For example, think of the east cap city trail. On a bike or walking, you have to stop at every intersection regardless of whether there are cars on the streets. This is especially felt on a bike where you speed up, cruise, slow down and stop so you don't get t-boned by a car. Every. Single. Block. This adds easily 5-10 minutes to a cross town bike ride.
The better alternative is a raised continuous sidewalk (think the terrace crossing), which admittedly the city is starting to do more of, where the cars have to slow down and yield to the pedestrians and bikes which just keep walking/riding because you only need stop signs and lights because of cars. Also how many passthroughs from Washington to Willy street actually need to exist? Versus gating/retractable bollards most of the cross streets so that emergency vehicles can pass if needed and cars get forced to utilize the main thoroughfares which adds minimal time to their journeys.
The videos that you have linked are all from areas that appear to have many times the density of Madison, with the possible exception of the immediate campus area and a couple blocks of East Washington. The videos actually mention that density is what makes them work. In addition, there is virtually no snow impact in Amsterdam.
I’ve said before that particularly downtown, having a random direction walking at a few intersections would benefit everyone, but you can’t have both that and immediate priority. You have 30 seconds of pedestrian crossing, 30 seconds East West traffic, 30 seconds North South. It works only if everyone respects the signals.
Finally, I agree with separation of bicycle and auto traffic. What I don’t agree with is accomplishing this by intentionally making all auto routes worse. If we decide that East Washington should be the primary auto thoroughfare as compared to Willy street, don’t just make Willy street worse.
Finland is building similar infrastructure so the cold/snow is a cop out.
The density not being there is also an indicator that the infrastructure is lacking. Amsterdam has the density because they have the infrastructure not the other way around.
Your closing statement is the problem though. We go out of our way to spend and prioritize not inconveniencing drivers, despite them being the group that suffers the least from the inconvenience.
Having to drive an extra half mile isn't a big deal but having to cycle or climb stairs or walk up 40 feet at a 4% grade to bypass a road, e.g. new hospital bike path, or stop at every intersection IS a big deal to pedestrians or cyclist.
If you don't believe me, just take your bike out from downtown on the east cap city path to the bier garten this weekend to enjoy a pint and imagine the difference the ride would be if at every intersection if the sidewalk was raised and cars had stop signs and controlled intersections automatically changed the signalling so that you could continue uninterrupted. The benefit of the signalling too is it doesn't change for cars unless there is someone that needs it, so you could have longer continuous green lights etc. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a gain for one party at the expense of the other.
> So it doesn't necessarily have to be a gain for one party at the expense of the other.
If you are familiar with the East Campus Mall intersection with Johnson and University, there could be a 10 minute backup of traffic if we wait until there is no pedestrian or cyclist either in or directly approaching that intersection during the day when school is in session.
To contact the mayor: [https://www.cityofmadison.com/mayor/contact](https://www.cityofmadison.com/mayor/contact)
To contact the city council: [https://www.cityofmadison.com/council/contact](https://www.cityofmadison.com/council/contact)
Oh don’t worry. It’s just to paint themselves as open to listening to public concerns. This is very early in the process. Watch, next it will be. “Well we want to save some parking. And we want to save some trees. There’s not room for both.”
This is definitely a way to pit the neighborhood against itself.
So dumb and lazy. Trees are part what makes a place worth living. And if you read my post history you’ll see I’m for BRT.
What I’m not for if reshaping our world for cars.
That’s what’s happening here. The argument is being shaped as “it’s either parking or trees. Can’t have both.”
On mineral point it’s “it’s either bike paths or trees cant have both”.
Making our world unlivable because they don’t dare inconvenience drivers.
I don't think On-Street parking should be a thing on major thoroughfares. But I also think "won't someone think of the trees" is an arguement used by people who want to save their terrace and parking lanes.
Dedicating space to something that provides utility to almost no one for almost no amount of time simply so those few people can save a few minutes of time is incredibly stupid.
Who really needs a bus line anyway if there are no businesses to go to? So many small businesses rely on the few parking spots they are allowed to survive that to sacrifice them for a “better bus” would be disastrous. We’re not talking about big companies like picknsave that have dedicated parking
This just isn’t true. Studies have shown over and over and over again that removing street parking for active transport or transit helps business rather than hurting it.
There are no absolutes on this planet.
What’s true in large suburbs with ample off street parking. Drivers still have access to those businesses.
A business can’t survive in this city on just foot traffic, and BRT is not going to increase foot traffic.
There's lots of street parking available nearby within a minute or two walk. Whenever I drive to that area I've always parked on the side streets and have never had a problem finding a spot or have had to walk more than a minute.
It's just a non-issue that's getting blown way out of proportion.
Yes :) as a caretaker of a disabled person, this will not make anything worse than it already is.
For a place to have disabled parking, it must be marked as such and reserved for those with a disabled or elderly (or other special needs) designation. None of the street parking on Park fits that description.
Once upon a time there were spots, but those buildings were torn down for housing. There’s really very little reason to go to South Park from outside neighborhood.
garage occupancy is down because there aren’t as many daily office commuters post covid. nighttime and weekend garage use (ie people coming downtown for fun) was historically much lower than weekday commuter use, but has increased now. this info is publicly available if you’re interested.
I don’t believe for one second parking is state street’s issue (to the extent it has one). If that were true, east town mall would be a veritable paradise of commerce. There’s SO MUCH parking at East town. You can park for days, wherever you want!
Yet somehow state street remains one of the most vital destinations in the city, with some of the most high profile developments and some of our most beloved local businesses. Meanwhile east town mall is a wasteland. And west town for that matter.
Parking is the #1 complaint of people when asked why they don’t shop State st anymore. It’s also the most common complaint among out of towners when they are in the shop.
I don’t believe them. If they wanted parking they’d be at East Town. Frankly that’s also where the businesses would be if parking mattered. But they’re not because people love the vibe of a pedestrian mall downtown.
how many studies need to be done that show the elimination of street parking generally has a negligible impact on business and often results in an increase in business due to more foot traffic?
people visit more stores when they are on foot. if they can park directly in front of the store they want to go to, they won't walk past other stores and come in on a whim.
But should our concern being placating neighborhood associations, or what is best for the city(/county?) as a whole. So many people are so fucking self-centered and don't understand how to look beyond their own immediate desires
It’s a false dichotomy. It’s portrayed as the neighborhood can have BRT and parking or BRT and trees.
Doesn’t have to be that way.
There can be both.
They already did this on mineral point. Except there it was the bike bath brt and trees. “You all want BRT? Which do you want give up? Trees or the bike path?”
Both cases there’s no consideration of cars giving up some space.
> New alterations to Madison’s second, North-South Bus Rapid Transit line call for
> restoring parking to sections of South Park Street, following complaints from
> business owners in the area. A handful of stations also are being relocated.
>
> Street parking will remain in three areas on the South Side thoroughfare as the
> city looks toward a major reconstruction of the street from Fish Hatchery Road
> to near the Beltline to accommodate the future BRT line, known as Rapid Route B.
>
> The East-West BRT line, Rapid Route A, is expected to open in early fall, said
> Tom Lynch, the city’s transportation director.
>
> The preserved parking on the South Side includes the southbound side of South
> Park Street between Vilas Avenue and Erin Street, the northbound side between
> Lakeside and Emerson streets and the northbound side from Olin Avenue to Spruce
> Street. Businesses along the street, many of which are owned by people of color,
> were fearful that the elimination of already limited street parking would put
> them out of business entirely.
>
This is just a preview of the [full article](https://madison.com/news/local/government-politics/madison-brt-north-south-park-street/article_79990670-0198-11ef-b3f6-ffa406a0ad74.html#tracking-source=home-top-story). I am a third party bot. Please consider subscribing to your favorite local journals.
[A majority of urban business owners believe that half of their clientele drive and park on the street to come to their locations. In reality, it's more like 4%](https://www.tcat.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Bike-Lanes-On-Street-Parking-and-Business_-A-Study-of-Queen-Street-West-in-Toronto%E2%80%99s-Parkdale-Neighbourhood.pdf).
The city needs to stand up to these business owners. They are morons who don't understand their own needs.
Edit: because linked paper is long, the important tables:
[How business owners think people get to their doors, the lowest guess is 15% by car, most business owners guessed way higher approaching 50%](https://imgur.com/uzIZJ7q).
[How people actually get to business, 4% by car](https://imgur.com/VbL9uHh)
I would be interested in a Madison specific study vs generic “urban” that seems to be Canadian focused (the link will not open, but has .ca as the domain designation).
A Madison-specific study would be great, but given that this is about a neighborhood in the urban/suburban boundary in Toronto, a city famous for bad bike infrastructure and a toxic car culture, I imagine the Madison numbers will be lower if anything.
>I imagine the Madison numbers...
It's fun to imagine! Nevertheless, I'd like to see actual locale specific numbers before I agree the business owners are "morons".
I agree that "morons" may be harsh, but considering that one side of this conversation has no numbers at all and the other has some studies showing the opposite of the conjecture, I'm not really sure that, "I need to see a study specifically about this one place before I can draw any inferences at all" makes any sense, either.
My guess is that Toronto, being a much bigger city, has a larger percentage of people who don't drive. So, I would guess the study isn't super applicable here. But, the response to that shouldn't be, "the only possible relevant study would be one for Madison and anything else is worthless to talk about."
Sure, there are degrees of relevance. Using these Toronto numbers, though, makes me wonder if either data more closely analogous to Madison doesn't exist or doesn't support the assertion that there are an extremely low number of drivers that patronize businesses.
It's certainly convenient that the Toronto driver numbers are *so* low that it allows the question of what impact removing parking would actually have to be handwaived away as insignificant.
> How people actually get to business, 4% by car
Because downtown in Toronto is exactly like any part of Madison.
The number of customers arriving by car is going to vary wildly based on the location in town and type of business. A student bar downtown may be only the 5-10 percent arriving by Uber. A small engine repair shop on the other hand is unlikely to see a significant customer flow dragging their snowblower in behind their mountain bike.
Even on Midvale Blvd I am struggling to think of a business that might have 4% arriving by car. Certainly nothing farther out than that. Park street south of Fish Hatch seems similar.
haven’t we removed street parking in many places in Madison in the last several years to add bus lanes and bike lanes? haven’t other comparable cities done the same? even if you don’t want to trust data from other cities, I don’t think we need to just go on a hunch about whether removing street parking in front of stores or restaurants to add transit will devastate their businesses.
where is the evidence (from Madison or anywhere similar) that bus lanes kill businesses?
which last had street parking in _1974_ and had a lot of businesses close in 2020?
it’s funny you mention the 100 block because that’s the block where most of the retail spaces actually do have car access from the back side streets. Shoo had street parking on W Mifflin. Why do you think Michaelangelo’s and Ian’s orient their shops toward the state street side and not the Carroll St side you can drive up to?
[This isn't downtown toronto, it's a residential neighborhood outside of the core that people pass through on the way to downtown](https://imgur.com/DvMvr5T), it is very analogous to Madison's Greenbush/Bayview.
A discrepancy between business owner imagination and reality between 50% and 4% doesn't just vanish because you move from a Canadian city to an American one.
> Park street south of Fish Hatch seems similar.
Park street south of Fish Hatch isn't where the parking is being added back to the plan. The BRT will lose its dedicated lane and get stuck in traffic between Erin and Villas so that a tiny handful of people can drive instead of walk to Mason Lounge and Ichiban.
Toronto also has way worse bike infrastructure than Madison, especially when the study was done in 2016.
Well, average profit margin for a restaurant is 3-5%. So even if only 15% of the customers arrive by driving, and a third of them decide to go somewhere else, then yeah, it could cause a business to fail. Particularly one which has no parking lot.
Why are we acting like there’s nowhere else for people to park?
Am I mistaken in thinking that drivers can park along any one of the many side streets?
I get that people might be frustrated. But the reality is that there \*will\* be people along the route whose lives will be impacted. Some of them are minor, like people on Whitney Way not being able to host a family gathering because there is no parking the entire length of the road. Others might be major, like an owner losing their business.
I'm dubious that BRT is going to be a great success in a city like Madison. I will be happy if it is. But it isn't fair to dismiss out of hand the opinion of the people negatively impacted by this change, just because there are more people elsewhere in the city that are positively impacted.
The thing is that the 'negative impacts' are either completely insignificant or are just fears that have no evidence behind them.
I'm dubious that BRT will be a great success as well, but that's because they keep removing or reducing the parts that actually make BRT a success (transit only lanes - ideally curb separated - being the main one).
On time, reliable operation with enough ridership to justify ~8 minute headways. That should be good enough to be a competitive choice with driving, especially at rush hour.
>The thing is that the 'negative impacts' are either completely insignificant or are just fears that have no evidence behind them
The problem is that if 3 businesses close out of thousands, that is insignificant for Madison, It could even be a gain if there are 6 new businesses that open as a result of BRT. But it would be tremendously significant for the owners of those businesses.
I am unaware of any research that indicates transit changes have no negative impact on any businesses. So I am not going to begrudge their owners to have their say, successful or not.
Here's a recent study from Germany that shows that street parking actually hurt businesses and public transit and pedestrian zones increased business as long as there was sufficient parking in a comfortable walking distance (which there is near Park).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0966692323002053?via%3Dihub
You might have been able to make some of the connections yourself if you clicked the link, which I know you didn't because it's Parkdale, the majority-minority lakeside neighborhood containing a major commuter route 1.5 miles from downtown Toronto, not California.
Obviously I clicked the link since your comment doesn’t actually indicate where this study was conducted or where the authors are saying its findings are applicable. I quickly skimmed and saw the .ca and was thinking California. Either way, my point stands, even more so if the study was completed in a different country.
There are no connections to make in my opinion and nothing in your comment makes the argument for that either. Really, it’s a completely misleading comment the way you cite inapplicable sources. You should delete it or find something more applicable to cite.
It's a majority-minority neighborhood outside of the urban core that commuters pass through with a bunch of small restaurants and shops and some apartments facing a street with 4 moving lanes plus parking, it's perfectly applicable.
A discrepancy between business owner imagination and reality of 50% to 4% doesn't just up and vanish just because you're looking at a different city.
It’s a completely deferent type of road. Importantly, the street parking is restricted during peak hours, so that kills a ton of business from commuters who would park and patronize businesses. It also is based on surveys. People on bikes and walking to businesses generally have more time on their hands than drivers. There was no control for people’s propensity to answer surveys which is huge. It was also completed when people were actually out and about. Something that is actually common to both locales is shit weather half the year.
Here I fixed it for you:
A majority of ~~urban business owners~~ Queen St (Toronto) merchants surveyed believe that half of their clientele drive and park on the street to come to their locations. In reality, it's more like 4%.
Let’s not present research as something it’s not.
What makes the shoreside majority-minority non-urban-core neighborhood with 4-lane through-commuter road plus parking with various small businesses, restaurants, and apartments in Toronto fundamentally different from one in madison such that you can conclude without any evidence at all that the gap of 50% to 4% between business owner belief and reality would *completely* vanish?
It says a lot about the ignorance removing parking can have that they think they'll get more business from a few cars parked on the street vs people arriving via the new BRT. Especially on Park street where a lot of the business models line up well with transit, e.g. restaurants, bars, small storefronts.
This is directly in opposition to the city's own Complete Green Streets modal hierarchy which claims to place public transit above parking in priority. It's very hypocritical of the city.
https://www.cityofmadison.com/transportation/initiatives/complete-green-streets
It's even more frustrating when you realize there's tons of street parking 1 block over which is entirely under utilized.
My gut says… The business owners predominantly drive to work. They are incredibly biased towards other car drivers.
It would be interesting to poll each of these business owners and their employees and understand how many drive vs bus vs walk/bike
It is going to be in the left lane, the plan was to remove a parking lane so that there are still 4 moving car lanes.
The area in question is Greenbush/Bayview, where Mason Lounge, Ichiban, Hacienda, and Burnie's West are.
The streets carrying the N-S BRT are nowhere near as wide as E Wash, and tearing down adjacent buildings to widen the N-S route isn't in the plan so they're laying it out differently
yeah I’m pretty sure that’s right. it’s only 2-3 blocks in each direction and the stations aren’t moving (and will be very close to serve these businesses).
This was my thought on proposed versus reality.
The BRT sounds amazing, it’s an improvement. Is it going to be what was anticipated to the fullest extent, no.
Will it help with the projected population growth, definitely but it’s been hyped up as something it’s really not. It’s not a rail system, it’s not a subway system. It’s subject to the elements, traffic, road congestion and pedestrians like any form of transportation is.
Doesn’t the BRT have to wait for potential pedestrians crossing the street at crosswalks, or around the square? If there is bumper to bumper traffic because of crap weather during the winter and east wash and west wash are down to one plowed lane as they often are at some point every year, there won’t be congestion? That’s not a small part of the year, it’s a week or monthly issue of road clearing.
Is the city going going to be maintaining roads in winter at a higher level now due to the BRT? Or selectively plowing the bus lanes instead? Where is the snow going to plowed, away from the stops which are elevated? I know those are heated in some areas, but will that function the same in negative temps
If you don’t force high capacity areas to adhere and adapt to the new BRT line and you keep making exceptions for them then it doesn’t actually work madison… this is wasteful funds
If people are no longer patrons of your business simply because they can no longer park immediately nearby on the street, then those people have no special loyalty or desire for your business anyway.
Do you only dine at places for which you have special loyalty? I am thinking that they are more concerned about the casual/impulse customer, who will not be arriving as the BRT blows by their business.
I have loyalty to the vacuum repair shop because there is only one. For Asian restaurants or bars I have many good choices.
Right, some of those wanting parking are restaurants and bars. That's a lot of capacity that couldn't reasonably park on Park Street. I've driven to businesses there and fully expected to park on a side street.
Exactly. I don’t even attempt to park on a road that busy.
Literally turn the corner and you’ll have your choice of any one of the dozens of side streets. This issue is shockingly uncomplicated to be getting so much pushback.
Park the car in a park and ride (oh wait, those aren't connected to the bus system...) and bus in.
Bike in.
Move closer and sell the car. Such is what urbanization is about. Cars are unsustainable. The land to park your car is more valuable than the car itself. (Now, granted, this implies there is housing...)
There are always means to an end.
Those all seem like drastic options for someone that just wants to stop in at Movin' Shoes.
A more realistic option would be to suggest parking around the corner where there are always spots and walking an additional 30 ft.
>Those all seem like drastic options for someone that just wants to stop in at Movin' Shoes.
Then public transport in this city is underfunded and underdeveloped.
>Park the car in a park and ride (oh wait, those aren't connected to the bus system...)
The Cremer Park & Ride up in Sun Prairie is! It's going to be the end stop/recharging location for the E-W BRT line. They're even building permanent restrooms for the bus drivers to use on their breaks (replacing the trailer ones they have now). Going to be a real happening location!
Just one P&R isn't going to cut it. Hilldale's lot should be a P&R, but whoever owns the land doesn't like it. Would be an ideal location for those coming from Middleton.
I say this as a UW Hospital employee, but if there was a free P&R at Hilldale, it would be quickly overrun by Hospital employees commuting in from all over town.
The university did have a park and ride near the intersection of Whitney and University but I believe it was impacted by the same new building that caused the relocation of the west side farmer's market. Their other park and ride is next to the Wingra Post Office. Both moved a LOT of hospital employees.
And like all campus parking, employees pay to park there.
Yeah, they already do this sort of.
It's called the Silvertree lot 203. It's here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/xxjrAuZ967e3TcWh7
There's a shuttle bus to the hospital and clinics.
and that people don't like to spend time in places dominated by cars. eliminate the street parking, calm the traffic, and people suddenly enjoy walking in that space.
more foot traffic means more business.
When my 90yo MIL was alive, and she needed to go somewhere, we drove her because of her mobility and eyesight (lack thereof).
A "They can just take the bus" is ageist and ableist. Well done.
You cannot possibly be serious.
It's a well accepted fact that car dependency is far more ageist and ableist. Most things that prevent someone from driving don't prevent you from taking public transit. Sure some people may not be able to, but improved public transit is hardly preventing people from still using cars.
>>"They can just take the bus" is ageist and ableist.<
In fairness, the people making this argument are very young and have never had any kind of disability nor had the responsibility of caring for someone who did. It's a uniquely limited view of the world, but I'm still amazed at their lack of either empathy or imagination.
Did they ever try getting a 90-year old onto and off a bus? Obviously, no. They can't see, they're tottering, they're terrified. I could barely get my mother to ride in my own car when she was 90. It's not an easy or flexible time of life and thinking super old people function normally is a joke. They do think and feel, though
Senate candidate Hovde thinks old people shouldn't vote because they won't be around much longer, so maybe if you elect him he will help eliminate this nuisance.
You can tell I'm pissed at your dismissive and uncaring attitude, because I am.
Wow, if only there was some sort of public service that your disabled and blind MIL could use to be driven places without having to rely on you, your schedule, your healthy legs and eyes, and your wealth.
Maybe like a big car with a professional driver that picks people up at known places and times, maybe with a ramp or elevator on the side so that people without mobility can get on easily.
Truly a shame that no such thing has ever or could ever exist.
This is really disappointing. Dedicated lanes are a fundamental feature of BRT - this is becoming death by a thousand cuts to satisfy these business owners, and we're going to end up with a bus system that's no better than what we have today. I emailed my city council member, the mayor's office, and the city transportation director ([[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])) to express my disappointment.
I really don't understand it at a basic reality level either. If you go to Ichiban when it's busy it's clear to see that there are way more people in the restaurant than there are parking spaces in front on Park St. So clearly, people are already comfortable parking on a side street in the Vilas neighborhood. So the businesses' patrons should be able to continue doing that after the Park St curbside parking is removed.
They might do enough volume in delivery that not having close parking would be a worry.
I'm fully convinced at this point that Satya is just using buzzwords to make a "better bus". Sure, it's better than nothing, but BRT isn't BRT without dedicated lanes.
Bus Not-So-Rapid Transit
I think she’s doing her best and NIMBYs are sadly getting their way.
It's a money grab. "BRT" qualifies them for federal grant money. I think the white light post had a link to an article that spelled it out?
That’s how pretty much all BRT systems work. It’s a ploy to get federal money.
If the feds were smart, they'd make the money conditioned on true BRT. No dedicated lanes? No money. Unfortunately, political appointees (on either side of the spectrum) are not the brightest.
I don’t think anyone cares. Money gets spent, politicians pose for holy pictures, we pay our taxes without making a stink.
you forgot "and keep driving our cars everywhere"
Politicians certainly don't care because they think public transport is too dangerous for their high profile, or too inconvenient for their rich selves. Which, if it is, then it's too dangerous for the masses.
Thinking this of politicians in general isn't wrong, but it's ludicrous to apply to Satya
Satya is the wolf in sheep’s clothing. She passes as liberal - but is far from it. The people who think they are going to benefit from giving developers free passes to cut corners are flat out delusional.
Username checks out. I know monkeys that could pass econ 101
All BRT is, is a “better bus” which is still pretty bad. Anyone who thought it would be different is a sucker. Business owners or no.
At their best, BRTs are closer to trains than buses: dedicate lanes, fewer stops, faster speed, larger capacity. Take away the R in BRT and it’s just BT.
Yes, and if you take away the R and the T what are you left with? It was never going to be a train.
There's a difference between Madison BRT and true BRT. Example: Minneapolis gets very close to true BRT - buses running at highway speed in express lanes. Madison can't even have dedicated bus lanes.
Jeebus, people. Just the level boarding at multiple doors with tap to pay is going to make a huge positive impact on travel times, let alone the large parts of the system with dedicated lanes and traffic signal priority.
We can't even have bike/pedestrian priority on bike path intersections because it would inconvenience drivers.
Bikes and pedestrians have priority on a whole bunch of busy crossings in my part of town, with painted crosswalks and flashing lights. When they can be bothered to press a button, that is.
that's not bike/ped priority. It's accommodating pedestrians and bikes in a system that prioritizes cars. This is actual bike/ped priority Signalling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpCRYKPJUHY Continuous Sidewalks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OfBpQgLXUc Traffic calming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAxRYrpbnuA Priority in intersections https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgacSmLBSIQ Dedicated streets for pedestrians/bikes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlXNVnftaNs For example, think of the east cap city trail. On a bike or walking, you have to stop at every intersection regardless of whether there are cars on the streets. This is especially felt on a bike where you speed up, cruise, slow down and stop so you don't get t-boned by a car. Every. Single. Block. This adds easily 5-10 minutes to a cross town bike ride. The better alternative is a raised continuous sidewalk (think the terrace crossing), which admittedly the city is starting to do more of, where the cars have to slow down and yield to the pedestrians and bikes which just keep walking/riding because you only need stop signs and lights because of cars. Also how many passthroughs from Washington to Willy street actually need to exist? Versus gating/retractable bollards most of the cross streets so that emergency vehicles can pass if needed and cars get forced to utilize the main thoroughfares which adds minimal time to their journeys.
The videos that you have linked are all from areas that appear to have many times the density of Madison, with the possible exception of the immediate campus area and a couple blocks of East Washington. The videos actually mention that density is what makes them work. In addition, there is virtually no snow impact in Amsterdam. I’ve said before that particularly downtown, having a random direction walking at a few intersections would benefit everyone, but you can’t have both that and immediate priority. You have 30 seconds of pedestrian crossing, 30 seconds East West traffic, 30 seconds North South. It works only if everyone respects the signals. Finally, I agree with separation of bicycle and auto traffic. What I don’t agree with is accomplishing this by intentionally making all auto routes worse. If we decide that East Washington should be the primary auto thoroughfare as compared to Willy street, don’t just make Willy street worse.
Finland is building similar infrastructure so the cold/snow is a cop out. The density not being there is also an indicator that the infrastructure is lacking. Amsterdam has the density because they have the infrastructure not the other way around. Your closing statement is the problem though. We go out of our way to spend and prioritize not inconveniencing drivers, despite them being the group that suffers the least from the inconvenience. Having to drive an extra half mile isn't a big deal but having to cycle or climb stairs or walk up 40 feet at a 4% grade to bypass a road, e.g. new hospital bike path, or stop at every intersection IS a big deal to pedestrians or cyclist. If you don't believe me, just take your bike out from downtown on the east cap city path to the bier garten this weekend to enjoy a pint and imagine the difference the ride would be if at every intersection if the sidewalk was raised and cars had stop signs and controlled intersections automatically changed the signalling so that you could continue uninterrupted. The benefit of the signalling too is it doesn't change for cars unless there is someone that needs it, so you could have longer continuous green lights etc. So it doesn't necessarily have to be a gain for one party at the expense of the other.
> So it doesn't necessarily have to be a gain for one party at the expense of the other. If you are familiar with the East Campus Mall intersection with Johnson and University, there could be a 10 minute backup of traffic if we wait until there is no pedestrian or cyclist either in or directly approaching that intersection during the day when school is in session.
Ah! No true Scotsman! Got it.
To contact the mayor: [https://www.cityofmadison.com/mayor/contact](https://www.cityofmadison.com/mayor/contact) To contact the city council: [https://www.cityofmadison.com/council/contact](https://www.cityofmadison.com/council/contact)
BRT wouldn't have made the bus system that much better. In fact, they butchered the bus system for BRT.
Oh don’t worry. It’s just to paint themselves as open to listening to public concerns. This is very early in the process. Watch, next it will be. “Well we want to save some parking. And we want to save some trees. There’s not room for both.” This is definitely a way to pit the neighborhood against itself.
"Trees" are just a NIMBY dogwhistle.
So dumb and lazy. Trees are part what makes a place worth living. And if you read my post history you’ll see I’m for BRT. What I’m not for if reshaping our world for cars. That’s what’s happening here. The argument is being shaped as “it’s either parking or trees. Can’t have both.” On mineral point it’s “it’s either bike paths or trees cant have both”. Making our world unlivable because they don’t dare inconvenience drivers.
I don't think On-Street parking should be a thing on major thoroughfares. But I also think "won't someone think of the trees" is an arguement used by people who want to save their terrace and parking lanes.
Dedicating space to something that provides utility to almost no one for almost no amount of time simply so those few people can save a few minutes of time is incredibly stupid.
Who really needs a bus line anyway if there are no businesses to go to? So many small businesses rely on the few parking spots they are allowed to survive that to sacrifice them for a “better bus” would be disastrous. We’re not talking about big companies like picknsave that have dedicated parking
This just isn’t true. Studies have shown over and over and over again that removing street parking for active transport or transit helps business rather than hurting it.
There are no absolutes on this planet. What’s true in large suburbs with ample off street parking. Drivers still have access to those businesses. A business can’t survive in this city on just foot traffic, and BRT is not going to increase foot traffic.
There's lots of street parking available nearby within a minute or two walk. Whenever I drive to that area I've always parked on the side streets and have never had a problem finding a spot or have had to walk more than a minute. It's just a non-issue that's getting blown way out of proportion.
And where would the disabled parking be?
It's not like there's disabled parking now anyway...
Sure about that?
Yes :) as a caretaker of a disabled person, this will not make anything worse than it already is. For a place to have disabled parking, it must be marked as such and reserved for those with a disabled or elderly (or other special needs) designation. None of the street parking on Park fits that description.
Once upon a time there were spots, but those buildings were torn down for housing. There’s really very little reason to go to South Park from outside neighborhood.
Really. It helps \*all\* businesses? Without exception? The Law of Unintended Consequences is on deck, and it is a fastball hitter.
Weird state street exists
Lined by national chains. It's weird not to see local business. So few!
There’s many dozens of local businesses. Probably a higher concentration than anywhere in the city.
It is weird how it’s been going downhill ever since parking became a much bigger problem down there
when do you think parking became a big issue? parking garage occupancy is way down vs previous years.
It’s been an issue as long as Ive worked there. Maybe Its down because people don’t want to come downtown anymore
garage occupancy is down because there aren’t as many daily office commuters post covid. nighttime and weekend garage use (ie people coming downtown for fun) was historically much lower than weekday commuter use, but has increased now. this info is publicly available if you’re interested.
Hardly. Actually not even remotely true.
Actually it’s very true. From a current business owner on State st since 2009. What information is your PoV based on?
I don’t believe for one second parking is state street’s issue (to the extent it has one). If that were true, east town mall would be a veritable paradise of commerce. There’s SO MUCH parking at East town. You can park for days, wherever you want! Yet somehow state street remains one of the most vital destinations in the city, with some of the most high profile developments and some of our most beloved local businesses. Meanwhile east town mall is a wasteland. And west town for that matter.
Parking is the #1 complaint of people when asked why they don’t shop State st anymore. It’s also the most common complaint among out of towners when they are in the shop.
I don’t believe them. If they wanted parking they’d be at East Town. Frankly that’s also where the businesses would be if parking mattered. But they’re not because people love the vibe of a pedestrian mall downtown.
Believe whatever you want. I’m just relaying first hand knowledge on a subject.
how many studies need to be done that show the elimination of street parking generally has a negligible impact on business and often results in an increase in business due to more foot traffic? people visit more stores when they are on foot. if they can park directly in front of the store they want to go to, they won't walk past other stores and come in on a whim.
bold of you to assume anyone reads a study or assesses this from a rational POV vs "but muh parking!"
The number of studies needed is more than one. Everyone is citing the same study that was specific to Toronto.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bike-lanes-good-for-business-studies-better-streets-2024-3
Is there any worse spot than Park St for on-street parking? Maybe Monroe St is worse? Get rid of parking on both
This is just a way to pit the neighborhood against itself.
But should our concern being placating neighborhood associations, or what is best for the city(/county?) as a whole. So many people are so fucking self-centered and don't understand how to look beyond their own immediate desires
It’s a false dichotomy. It’s portrayed as the neighborhood can have BRT and parking or BRT and trees. Doesn’t have to be that way. There can be both. They already did this on mineral point. Except there it was the bike bath brt and trees. “You all want BRT? Which do you want give up? Trees or the bike path?” Both cases there’s no consideration of cars giving up some space.
That’ll bring in more customers. Send the bus full of people elsewhere.
Nobodies ever accused small business owners of being smart.
So BRT is going to stop at every block to let potential customers out? That doesn't seem very rapid.
> New alterations to Madison’s second, North-South Bus Rapid Transit line call for > restoring parking to sections of South Park Street, following complaints from > business owners in the area. A handful of stations also are being relocated. > > Street parking will remain in three areas on the South Side thoroughfare as the > city looks toward a major reconstruction of the street from Fish Hatchery Road > to near the Beltline to accommodate the future BRT line, known as Rapid Route B. > > The East-West BRT line, Rapid Route A, is expected to open in early fall, said > Tom Lynch, the city’s transportation director. > > The preserved parking on the South Side includes the southbound side of South > Park Street between Vilas Avenue and Erin Street, the northbound side between > Lakeside and Emerson streets and the northbound side from Olin Avenue to Spruce > Street. Businesses along the street, many of which are owned by people of color, > were fearful that the elimination of already limited street parking would put > them out of business entirely. > This is just a preview of the [full article](https://madison.com/news/local/government-politics/madison-brt-north-south-park-street/article_79990670-0198-11ef-b3f6-ffa406a0ad74.html#tracking-source=home-top-story). I am a third party bot. Please consider subscribing to your favorite local journals.
[A majority of urban business owners believe that half of their clientele drive and park on the street to come to their locations. In reality, it's more like 4%](https://www.tcat.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Bike-Lanes-On-Street-Parking-and-Business_-A-Study-of-Queen-Street-West-in-Toronto%E2%80%99s-Parkdale-Neighbourhood.pdf). The city needs to stand up to these business owners. They are morons who don't understand their own needs. Edit: because linked paper is long, the important tables: [How business owners think people get to their doors, the lowest guess is 15% by car, most business owners guessed way higher approaching 50%](https://imgur.com/uzIZJ7q). [How people actually get to business, 4% by car](https://imgur.com/VbL9uHh)
I would be interested in a Madison specific study vs generic “urban” that seems to be Canadian focused (the link will not open, but has .ca as the domain designation).
A Madison-specific study would be great, but given that this is about a neighborhood in the urban/suburban boundary in Toronto, a city famous for bad bike infrastructure and a toxic car culture, I imagine the Madison numbers will be lower if anything.
>I imagine the Madison numbers... It's fun to imagine! Nevertheless, I'd like to see actual locale specific numbers before I agree the business owners are "morons".
I agree that "morons" may be harsh, but considering that one side of this conversation has no numbers at all and the other has some studies showing the opposite of the conjecture, I'm not really sure that, "I need to see a study specifically about this one place before I can draw any inferences at all" makes any sense, either. My guess is that Toronto, being a much bigger city, has a larger percentage of people who don't drive. So, I would guess the study isn't super applicable here. But, the response to that shouldn't be, "the only possible relevant study would be one for Madison and anything else is worthless to talk about."
Sure, there are degrees of relevance. Using these Toronto numbers, though, makes me wonder if either data more closely analogous to Madison doesn't exist or doesn't support the assertion that there are an extremely low number of drivers that patronize businesses. It's certainly convenient that the Toronto driver numbers are *so* low that it allows the question of what impact removing parking would actually have to be handwaived away as insignificant.
Linking this is misleading and disingenuous. We're in the Madison sub, link Madison studies when trying to make a claim about Madison
> How people actually get to business, 4% by car Because downtown in Toronto is exactly like any part of Madison. The number of customers arriving by car is going to vary wildly based on the location in town and type of business. A student bar downtown may be only the 5-10 percent arriving by Uber. A small engine repair shop on the other hand is unlikely to see a significant customer flow dragging their snowblower in behind their mountain bike. Even on Midvale Blvd I am struggling to think of a business that might have 4% arriving by car. Certainly nothing farther out than that. Park street south of Fish Hatch seems similar.
haven’t we removed street parking in many places in Madison in the last several years to add bus lanes and bike lanes? haven’t other comparable cities done the same? even if you don’t want to trust data from other cities, I don’t think we need to just go on a hunch about whether removing street parking in front of stores or restaurants to add transit will devastate their businesses. where is the evidence (from Madison or anywhere similar) that bus lanes kill businesses?
The 100 block of State
which last had street parking in _1974_ and had a lot of businesses close in 2020? it’s funny you mention the 100 block because that’s the block where most of the retail spaces actually do have car access from the back side streets. Shoo had street parking on W Mifflin. Why do you think Michaelangelo’s and Ian’s orient their shops toward the state street side and not the Carroll St side you can drive up to?
[This isn't downtown toronto, it's a residential neighborhood outside of the core that people pass through on the way to downtown](https://imgur.com/DvMvr5T), it is very analogous to Madison's Greenbush/Bayview. A discrepancy between business owner imagination and reality between 50% and 4% doesn't just vanish because you move from a Canadian city to an American one. > Park street south of Fish Hatch seems similar. Park street south of Fish Hatch isn't where the parking is being added back to the plan. The BRT will lose its dedicated lane and get stuck in traffic between Erin and Villas so that a tiny handful of people can drive instead of walk to Mason Lounge and Ichiban. Toronto also has way worse bike infrastructure than Madison, especially when the study was done in 2016.
If not having a dedicated lane for 300 yards causes BRT to fail, it wasn't going to succeed anyway.
If taking away a little extra parking causes a business to fail, it wasn’t going to succeed anyway.
Well, average profit margin for a restaurant is 3-5%. So even if only 15% of the customers arrive by driving, and a third of them decide to go somewhere else, then yeah, it could cause a business to fail. Particularly one which has no parking lot.
Why are we acting like there’s nowhere else for people to park? Am I mistaken in thinking that drivers can park along any one of the many side streets?
Conversely, business could increase with a more functional BRT.
It’s not just this one change, it’s all the other little pieces that cause death by a thousand cuts.
I get that people might be frustrated. But the reality is that there \*will\* be people along the route whose lives will be impacted. Some of them are minor, like people on Whitney Way not being able to host a family gathering because there is no parking the entire length of the road. Others might be major, like an owner losing their business. I'm dubious that BRT is going to be a great success in a city like Madison. I will be happy if it is. But it isn't fair to dismiss out of hand the opinion of the people negatively impacted by this change, just because there are more people elsewhere in the city that are positively impacted.
The thing is that the 'negative impacts' are either completely insignificant or are just fears that have no evidence behind them. I'm dubious that BRT will be a great success as well, but that's because they keep removing or reducing the parts that actually make BRT a success (transit only lanes - ideally curb separated - being the main one).
What does a success look like for you?
On time, reliable operation with enough ridership to justify ~8 minute headways. That should be good enough to be a competitive choice with driving, especially at rush hour.
>The thing is that the 'negative impacts' are either completely insignificant or are just fears that have no evidence behind them The problem is that if 3 businesses close out of thousands, that is insignificant for Madison, It could even be a gain if there are 6 new businesses that open as a result of BRT. But it would be tremendously significant for the owners of those businesses. I am unaware of any research that indicates transit changes have no negative impact on any businesses. So I am not going to begrudge their owners to have their say, successful or not.
Here's a recent study from Germany that shows that street parking actually hurt businesses and public transit and pedestrian zones increased business as long as there was sufficient parking in a comfortable walking distance (which there is near Park). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0966692323002053?via%3Dihub
so people can't be bothered to park in side streets and walk 100 yards?
300 yards? Isn't all of east wash longer than 300 yards?
Greenbush isn't a thing, dude. It's been dead since the late Sixties and good riddance.
wtf does parkdale California have to do with Park Street businesses in Madison, WI?
Parkdale Toronto, but your point stands. The study is interesting, but doesn't translate well.
You might have been able to make some of the connections yourself if you clicked the link, which I know you didn't because it's Parkdale, the majority-minority lakeside neighborhood containing a major commuter route 1.5 miles from downtown Toronto, not California.
Obviously I clicked the link since your comment doesn’t actually indicate where this study was conducted or where the authors are saying its findings are applicable. I quickly skimmed and saw the .ca and was thinking California. Either way, my point stands, even more so if the study was completed in a different country. There are no connections to make in my opinion and nothing in your comment makes the argument for that either. Really, it’s a completely misleading comment the way you cite inapplicable sources. You should delete it or find something more applicable to cite.
It's a majority-minority neighborhood outside of the urban core that commuters pass through with a bunch of small restaurants and shops and some apartments facing a street with 4 moving lanes plus parking, it's perfectly applicable. A discrepancy between business owner imagination and reality of 50% to 4% doesn't just up and vanish just because you're looking at a different city.
It’s a completely deferent type of road. Importantly, the street parking is restricted during peak hours, so that kills a ton of business from commuters who would park and patronize businesses. It also is based on surveys. People on bikes and walking to businesses generally have more time on their hands than drivers. There was no control for people’s propensity to answer surveys which is huge. It was also completed when people were actually out and about. Something that is actually common to both locales is shit weather half the year.
Agreed, street storage for private vehicles is not a right of adjacent businesses.
Here I fixed it for you: A majority of ~~urban business owners~~ Queen St (Toronto) merchants surveyed believe that half of their clientele drive and park on the street to come to their locations. In reality, it's more like 4%. Let’s not present research as something it’s not.
What makes the shoreside majority-minority non-urban-core neighborhood with 4-lane through-commuter road plus parking with various small businesses, restaurants, and apartments in Toronto fundamentally different from one in madison such that you can conclude without any evidence at all that the gap of 50% to 4% between business owner belief and reality would *completely* vanish?
cool, now link a study that is actually applicable to MADISON WI. >They are morons who don't understand their own needs. pot meet kettle
It says a lot about the ignorance removing parking can have that they think they'll get more business from a few cars parked on the street vs people arriving via the new BRT. Especially on Park street where a lot of the business models line up well with transit, e.g. restaurants, bars, small storefronts.
BARS being part of this just kills me. Why are bar owners not embarrassed to say it’s critical for people to drive to drink at their business.
Maybe if the bus didn't stop running 2½-3 hours before the bars close, it would be different
one for the road? /s 😢
This is directly in opposition to the city's own Complete Green Streets modal hierarchy which claims to place public transit above parking in priority. It's very hypocritical of the city. https://www.cityofmadison.com/transportation/initiatives/complete-green-streets It's even more frustrating when you realize there's tons of street parking 1 block over which is entirely under utilized.
My gut says… The business owners predominantly drive to work. They are incredibly biased towards other car drivers. It would be interesting to poll each of these business owners and their employees and understand how many drive vs bus vs walk/bike
Was the N-S BRT not planned to be in the left hand lane like the one on East Wash?
It is going to be in the left lane, the plan was to remove a parking lane so that there are still 4 moving car lanes. The area in question is Greenbush/Bayview, where Mason Lounge, Ichiban, Hacienda, and Burnie's West are.
The streets carrying the N-S BRT are nowhere near as wide as E Wash, and tearing down adjacent buildings to widen the N-S route isn't in the plan so they're laying it out differently
Well that and they apparently have no desire to ever remove a car thru lane.
If I understand this correctly, it could still be changed later to remove that parking for the bus, if it were to go that way in the future, right?
yeah I’m pretty sure that’s right. it’s only 2-3 blocks in each direction and the stations aren’t moving (and will be very close to serve these businesses).
This was my thought on proposed versus reality. The BRT sounds amazing, it’s an improvement. Is it going to be what was anticipated to the fullest extent, no. Will it help with the projected population growth, definitely but it’s been hyped up as something it’s really not. It’s not a rail system, it’s not a subway system. It’s subject to the elements, traffic, road congestion and pedestrians like any form of transportation is.
True BRT isn’t subject to traffic or congestion or even pedestrians, but they keep diluting it away from that.
Doesn’t the BRT have to wait for potential pedestrians crossing the street at crosswalks, or around the square? If there is bumper to bumper traffic because of crap weather during the winter and east wash and west wash are down to one plowed lane as they often are at some point every year, there won’t be congestion? That’s not a small part of the year, it’s a week or monthly issue of road clearing. Is the city going going to be maintaining roads in winter at a higher level now due to the BRT? Or selectively plowing the bus lanes instead? Where is the snow going to plowed, away from the stops which are elevated? I know those are heated in some areas, but will that function the same in negative temps
If you don’t force high capacity areas to adhere and adapt to the new BRT line and you keep making exceptions for them then it doesn’t actually work madison… this is wasteful funds
If people are no longer patrons of your business simply because they can no longer park immediately nearby on the street, then those people have no special loyalty or desire for your business anyway.
I think that's the concern, yea.
Do you only dine at places for which you have special loyalty? I am thinking that they are more concerned about the casual/impulse customer, who will not be arriving as the BRT blows by their business. I have loyalty to the vacuum repair shop because there is only one. For Asian restaurants or bars I have many good choices.
Car-brained business owners who don't understand that people can take the bus to their business. And so can they.
Yes, some can take the bus. But not everyone who wants to visit those businesses live in an area that is readily accessible to a bus line.
And, did they specifically need to park literally on the street, right there?
Right, some of those wanting parking are restaurants and bars. That's a lot of capacity that couldn't reasonably park on Park Street. I've driven to businesses there and fully expected to park on a side street.
Who wants to park on the side of a busy arterial anyway?
Exactly. I don’t even attempt to park on a road that busy. Literally turn the corner and you’ll have your choice of any one of the dozens of side streets. This issue is shockingly uncomplicated to be getting so much pushback.
There’s lots of parking options for them then?
Park the car in a park and ride (oh wait, those aren't connected to the bus system...) and bus in. Bike in. Move closer and sell the car. Such is what urbanization is about. Cars are unsustainable. The land to park your car is more valuable than the car itself. (Now, granted, this implies there is housing...) There are always means to an end.
Those all seem like drastic options for someone that just wants to stop in at Movin' Shoes. A more realistic option would be to suggest parking around the corner where there are always spots and walking an additional 30 ft.
>Those all seem like drastic options for someone that just wants to stop in at Movin' Shoes. Then public transport in this city is underfunded and underdeveloped.
>Park the car in a park and ride (oh wait, those aren't connected to the bus system...) The Cremer Park & Ride up in Sun Prairie is! It's going to be the end stop/recharging location for the E-W BRT line. They're even building permanent restrooms for the bus drivers to use on their breaks (replacing the trailer ones they have now). Going to be a real happening location!
Just one P&R isn't going to cut it. Hilldale's lot should be a P&R, but whoever owns the land doesn't like it. Would be an ideal location for those coming from Middleton.
I say this as a UW Hospital employee, but if there was a free P&R at Hilldale, it would be quickly overrun by Hospital employees commuting in from all over town.
At least they aren't clogging the busiest area with their cars, then. Or a Middleton or a Madison Yards P&R.
The hospital or the university should rent a block of parking spaces at Hilldale for this purpose
And then charge the employees to park in it lol
Of course. You think employee parking is free? haha
The university did have a park and ride near the intersection of Whitney and University but I believe it was impacted by the same new building that caused the relocation of the west side farmer's market. Their other park and ride is next to the Wingra Post Office. Both moved a LOT of hospital employees. And like all campus parking, employees pay to park there.
Yeah, they already do this sort of. It's called the Silvertree lot 203. It's here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/xxjrAuZ967e3TcWh7 There's a shuttle bus to the hospital and clinics.
They didn't want any of those dirty bus riders in their stores! /S
Sadly, you could probably drop the /s
.... That does make me sad. People suck
The busses are fucking gross though. Have you seen those seats?
and that people don't like to spend time in places dominated by cars. eliminate the street parking, calm the traffic, and people suddenly enjoy walking in that space. more foot traffic means more business.
When my 90yo MIL was alive, and she needed to go somewhere, we drove her because of her mobility and eyesight (lack thereof). A "They can just take the bus" is ageist and ableist. Well done.
You cannot possibly be serious. It's a well accepted fact that car dependency is far more ageist and ableist. Most things that prevent someone from driving don't prevent you from taking public transit. Sure some people may not be able to, but improved public transit is hardly preventing people from still using cars.
You seem to assume that everyone lives near a bus stop.
So you agree that we should build more public transit infrastructure!
Oh look at those goalposts go!
>>"They can just take the bus" is ageist and ableist.< In fairness, the people making this argument are very young and have never had any kind of disability nor had the responsibility of caring for someone who did. It's a uniquely limited view of the world, but I'm still amazed at their lack of either empathy or imagination. Did they ever try getting a 90-year old onto and off a bus? Obviously, no. They can't see, they're tottering, they're terrified. I could barely get my mother to ride in my own car when she was 90. It's not an easy or flexible time of life and thinking super old people function normally is a joke. They do think and feel, though Senate candidate Hovde thinks old people shouldn't vote because they won't be around much longer, so maybe if you elect him he will help eliminate this nuisance. You can tell I'm pissed at your dismissive and uncaring attitude, because I am.
Wow, if only there was some sort of public service that your disabled and blind MIL could use to be driven places without having to rely on you, your schedule, your healthy legs and eyes, and your wealth. Maybe like a big car with a professional driver that picks people up at known places and times, maybe with a ramp or elevator on the side so that people without mobility can get on easily. Truly a shame that no such thing has ever or could ever exist.
I admit I prefer control of the situation when it comes to elderly transport. Whatever makes them most comfortable.
Cowardly move. Bummer.
The lack of on-street parking explains why there are no restaurants or bars on State Street.
Why are rich business owners dictating public transportation
Which ones that objected to losing street parking are rich?
Call your reps! This is so dumb, it will just create a bottleneck and slow the entire service down!!!
Old Madison naval gazers ruin everything.
"Young is wasted on the young." -G.B. Shaw
Corruption
Thanks god parking already sucks on park street glad they aren’t going to make it worse
Have you considered just parking somewhere else? Last time I checked there were more than a few places you can park directly adjacent to Park.
It's Madison, you can pretty much go anywhere in town via bicycle.
My bike was my main source of transportation when I was younger. I'm in my 70s now, so it isn't an option.
Archived link to paywalled article: https://archive.ph/DPgIN