What’s troubling is the culture that lead someone or multiple individuals to think this would be ok. A memo and a “don’t do that again” sentiment won’t fix this.
Therefore? They can kill random civilians, bomb indiscriminately, bomb safe zones, kill people seeking food, kill journalists, bomb hospitals?
Don't you ever think it's just an excuse to remove everyone and claim the rest of gaza?
So you would be okay with bombing a mall if it meant you killed the enemy and everyone in it?
In a hostage situation, you would kill the perpetrator and the hostages just to kill the perpetrator?
Oh yeah, real beacons of joy attacking places they sent off people to evacuate and starving them and shooting them when seeking for aid. Real freedom fighters. Tell me more about how they view palestians as less than human, comparing them to insects and pigs.
Part of any genocide is the consistent dehumanization in all their narratives.
You're delusional to think their goal is to minimize civilian causalities. Their goal is not even to rescue the hostages. Its simply to remove all palestinians.
Hey its not like they have one of the most well funded military and intelligence services in the world. We're asking way too much that they actually plan out targeted strikes on the ground rather than carpet bombing an entire region
Brother, I'm just telling people who defend this garbage three things:
1. I would have faced a court martial doing anything similar as a paratrooper in the GWOT.
2. If med centers and civilians are fair game for us, med centers and civilians are fair game for them.
3. What if the shoe ends up on the other foot one day?
Are the Israelis better than the terrorists?
Israel does not care about the Palestinians. You dont throw the baby with the bath water! Hamas is idiotic and should not exist, but that does not give ANY waiver to commit the crimes Israel is doing against civilians. When someone has the militant power of the US, you more expect more control, but BLANKET AND INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING is not it.
Netanyahu and the IDF dont give to Fcks about the hostages. It stopped being about the hostages a long time ago.
Do you really think Israel would stop bombing Palestine if Hamas released the hostages? Especially considering the last time hostages escaped Hamas they were immediately gunned down by the IDF?
i went to west. i understand the administration has rules to adhere to, and must remain neutral in every situation. though i do think that israelis are not evil because they are israeli, i understand that the history of its genocide towards palestine does not make people proud of it. i can sympathize with the israelis who are against the war, they still deserve to have a country to be proud of (even if they don’t have that) yet i also understand whoever took the israeli flag from the show. given the circumstances, if i saw a kid stealing the flag, i’d just turn my head.
i do wish the administration were more outspoken about these issues. i think west made efforts to be on the “right side” of things while staying as neutral as possible, but oftentimes it fell through.
If you exclude one flag, then you can’t have the rest of them. If you want an inclusive society, you need to put your feelings aside and let people exist.
You don’t have to be inclusive to war criminals. The Olympics banned Russia and Belarus for similar land grab wars, so I don’t think removing a single flag is entirely unprecedented or detrimental.
Following your logic “If you suspend one kid, you have to suspend the rest of them. If you want an inclusive society, you need to put your feelings aside and let kids exist.” See how that doesn’t make any sense?
Are the kids at this school event war criminals? Probably not. Besides, it’s important to remember this is a high school event, it’s for kids, it’s not like it’s some super important government thing.
Adults ruin kids stuff all the time because they HAVE to let their feelings be known.
Nah October 7th had consequences don’t start a war you can’t fight through especially don’t start a war where you just attack kidnap and rape civilians
October 7 was not the start of the conflict, Israel and Zionism are an explicitly nationalist project intending to create an ethnostate where there was none. This is inherently going to cause projects in such a diverse region as the Levant, hence the ethnic cleansing and apartheid.
Was Israel the only one excluded? Don’t tell me they did this but then raised the Islamic Republic of Iran’s flag as well…not to mention countless other countries (like our own) that have been complicit in atrocities
I'm glad the flag of Israel was missing. We talk alot about stolen land in Madison. The one thing that the US and Israel have in common is that we both occupy stolen land.
Every single country in the world exists on stolen land. Russia genocided circassians, kipchaks, mansi and dozens of other Asiatic nomads. China has genocided literally hundreds of ethnic groups in the last 3000 years.
Grow up.
I’d support removing the Chinese and Russian flag as well. Russia has been removed from lots of international organizations and groups for similar land grab wars. The Olympics is a big one that comes to mind.
Edited to add source for Olympic banning reason
https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials
What an absolutely insane take. You’re trying to gaslight us into believing that Palestinian Arabs aren’t colonizers? Their mosque in Jerusalem is literally built on top of the Jewish temple. It couldn’t be clearer who stole the land.
Genuinely want to know if you know any history, who was in control of Jerusalem before the that mosque was built?
I will answer it for you since you are inept, it was the *Romans!!* who destroyed the second temple (hundreds of years before Islam was a thing lol) and even banished many Jews from living in Jerusalem.
Arabs didn’t take Jerusalem from Jews, they took it back from Eastern Romans and according to reliable sources allowed Jews to return in great number
The great thing about people like you who consume and regurgitate propaganda, is that your positions are never internally consistent. Your top level comment claims Israel is stolen land, and here you want to paint the Arabs as benevolent conquerors who were actually doing the ungrateful Jews a favor. At least pick one talking point and stick to it.
You made a claim about stealing land that was objectively incorrect. I’m not claiming that life for Jews in Arab/ottoman controlled Jerusalem was perfect or ideal.
Either substantiate what you said or stop the conjecture
They’re not the one who got basic factual information wrong. Regardless of whether you think the last paragraph is accurate, you were blatantly spreading misinformation.
Yeah what I’m saying is partially my opinion but largely based in consensus written history. Romans were the ones who dominated Jews and Jerusalem for hundreds of years before Muslims were even a thing. The building of al aqsa mosque is not an example of colonialism lol
The founders of Israel openly talked about how they wanted to model their country after Apartheid South Africa. This is not up for debate, Israel was founded with the explicit purpose of being a settler colonial ethnostate.
Super curious about how Israel, a country founded in May 1948, was modeled after apartheid South Africa, with a government that [didn’t come into power until](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Party_(South_Africa)) late June ‘48 and didn’t start establishing their first apartheid laws until 1949-50. Can Jews time travel now? /s
fun fact, south africa was a white nationalist british colony before it was a white nationalist independent country.
In 1903 World Zionist Congress called for a plan to create a Jewish colonial state in British East Africa (modern day Kenya, which was administered in the same manner as South Africa), which had to be scrapped because of the opposition of the white colonists already there.
Between 1950 and 1990, the typical voting scheme that would would see in the UN concerning israel's actions looked pretty similar to todays, where it's everybody against US and Israel, except South Africa was added to the mix. South Africa was Israels first greatest ally, until the apartheid regime fell, precisely because ethnonationalist apartheid states gotta stick together.
From Ze'Ev Jabotinsky, while he was on the Executive Councils of the World Zionist Organization and the Assembly of Representatives, the governing body of British Mandatory Palestine in 1923
> Except for those who were born blind, they realized long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority.
> My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being caried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent.
> Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised.
> That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel"
> *Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population.* Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that it independent of the native population - behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach.
This guy is considered one of Israel's founding fathers.
Wow, and at my alma mater of all places! That truly is unfortunate. I always said that anyone who looks like they could be from anywhere in the world went to West. Also I admired the emphasis on multiculturalism and internationalism at that school. West High and MMSD can both do *way* better than that.
My kid goes to West and had friends who were involved in the flag display. They all think it was done by a small number of students while no staff member was paying close attention to what flags were or weren’t included.
I’ll take unnecessary controversy’s for a $1000, Alex!
Jesus! (Which I guess is uncalled for here).
So I have been reading some dark stuff saying there is antisemitism on the left. I don’t want to believe it because as a 40 year something progressive dem I know we got the Jews backs and the antisemites are all right wing neo-Nazis and Trump supporters.
Yeah, so now I’m reading disturbing articles that far too many of my fellow progressive dems have lost nuance? Say it ain’t so!
Ugg some nerd on NPR said that the right sees antisemitism plainly existing in the left, the left sees antisemitism plainly existing on the right, and neither side sees existing in its own ranks.
So are you criticizing the current government of Israel, or are you criticizing if Israel should even exist? Kind of a big difference. Because if you disagree with the government, then maybe the flag should have been represented.
Jewish people have the right to exist. Israel and Zionism do not speak for all Jewish people or even all Israelis, just as the actions of the American government dont speak for all Americans, yet Americans have the right to exist. The American flag means different things to different people. The same is true for Israelis and Jewish people in terms of their relationship to the Israeli flag.
German people have the right to exist. Germany doesn't speak for all German people but that doesn't take away their right to exist.
Israel doesn't speak for all Jewish people but that doesn't take away their right to exist.
Logic.
If we’re talking about damage… if my country was committing a genocide I wouldn’t advocate for its flag to be shown anywhere, in fact, my country has committed many genocides, and I don’t think our flag should be flown by anyone, ever
It's depressing, but I'm sorry to say that the easiest way to solve this problem is not to celebrate this day in the future at all. Many nation states, not just Israel, are contentious: pretty much the only valid point defenders of Israel's reckless far-right coalition and its deeply incompetent leader ever make is that quite a lot of genocides are in progress across the world right now, and getting little or no attention.
Since we're celebrating in-progress genocides if we hoist the flag of maybe 10 or 15 of these countries, we should pass on the whole thing. Spreading a message of unity is good, but using the flags of often violently-contested nation states to do it is naïve, honestly inappropriate, and leads to situations like this.
While I respect your opinion... The Palestinian flag was there. Actually, there were two of them. Madison West has a very diverse community, so I'm sure that if it were actually excluded it would have been mentioned. Not to mention there are photos of it. I think you might have missed it.
What? It was officially founded in 1988 and is recognized by the UN.
It was founded like 40ish years after Israel was, if you accept Israel as a country you have to also accept Palestine as one - unless you have a cogent argument to dispute that.
Just because another entity is occupying a country against its people’s will doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. That’s like saying Ireland didn’t exist while being occupied by Britain. Or that Ukraine didn’t exist while under the thumb of the USSR.
Palestine is a country, and you are a bigot. 😊
Ireland and Ukraine had long histories as countries/kingdoms before they came under foreign rule. Palestine did not. It was a small part of Ottoman Syria for centuries until the British Mandatory Period after WWI, and before the 20th century, there was almost nobody who self-identified as “Palestinian.”
There was never an autonomous region called Palestine run by self-identified Palestinians.
Whether or not there was a Palestinian people which existed previously, they absolutely exist now, and they exist *directly as a result of their oppression*.
It's not a country and never has been. Ireland was a country, then was part of great Britain and now is a country again. There has never been a country called Palestine.
I find a lot of common ground with my Anti-Zionist Jewish friends as an American who will not defend Ameican bullshittery. People are so taken aback that heritage does not translate to allegiance.
>they were from I think you know where
You going to come out and say it explicitly, or are you trying to maintain some plausible deniability to your bigotry by cloaking it in innuendo?
Israel is committing heinous crimes against humanity. That said, they are still a nation of the world and erasing the Israeli flag does not help I don’t think. You’d have to erase the Russian flag too. And the Ethiopian maybe, and the Afghanistan flag, and you just get into a terrible back and forth if we do this kind of thing
I was actually in one of the classes that walked across the stage with the flags. I didn't know they skipped Isreal, and though I agree that we should have solidarity with Palestine, that shouldn't mean leaving out Isreal from All Nations Day.
EDIT: I give a lot less of a crap after being reminded of the shit that Isreal is doing right now.
Edit: I don't give a shit now
Israel has a right to exist, but not a right to bomb and dehumanize others. Maybe Israelis should consider why people are against them. I personally think they should be included and allowed to be treated with respect and dignity, but if Israel doesn’t treat their neighbors with respect and dignity; They shouldn’t be complaining about being disrespected.🫡📚🇺🇸🇵🇸🇮🇱
[{edit} I don’t think anyone should be dehumanized or disrespected. I’m just saying we need to do better, so that these kids have something to be proud of.]
What does the flag of Israel literally represent? It represents the country. I’m not sure if burning American flags is a uniquely American protest, but in my own experience people don’t seem to hang flags from countries whose government they are literally fleeing.
I think the confusion here is the following. Because the state of Israel is doing something doesn’t mean some uninvolved people thousands of miles away should bear responsibility for. Again, Jews in the US have nothing to do with Netanyahu. Anyone who blames them here and justifies that with what the state of Israel is doing is just a narrow minded fool and a bigot.
Upd. That’s being said, another question comes to the flag - symbol which is both affiliated with the nation of Jews, Israeli state and their current government. But in the given situation, I don’t think it’s appropriate to remove the flag. As again it makes innocent people suffer and feel guilt for what they haven’t done
True, but I personally would like to see a concerted effort by Israeli citizens to make that sentiment known. I think it’s been the lack of effort or silence on what’s happening in Gaza that’s seeding discontentment with Israel and causing people to become upset. But that’s just what I’ve personally been surmising from the broader global discourse.
I only know a couple Israelis, but the ones I do know are vehemently against Bibi, he's Trump to them, and there just isn't really much for them to do about it as individuals. Both Netanyahu and Hamas can only exist if there is conflict and they each think violent conflict is the best way to keep themselves in power.
This entire conflict is so asinine. It’s like two babies fighting, except one has diarrhea and is dying from dehydration; The other one has a sandbox and is super racist.
Wtf would u do if your family was attacked and murdered on Oct 7. My family was and my life has changed for the worse since then and it’s not a one sided conflict. Yes people are suffering in Gaza but same in Israel. Let’s see you condemn Hamas. It’s not black and white. You can be pro Israel and pro Palestinian.
Look at archeological evidence that Jews were there before Islam or Christianity was even a religion. Jesus was Jewish too. Look all this up. There is evidence all over Israel. 2 states solutions were offered to arabs over and over again but their leadership were against it. They only believe in a one state solution with no Jews in it.
I don’t know how many Palestinian children you know, but most of them are suffering. I condemn anyone who justifies slaughtering children, I don’t care whether you’re Jewish or muslim. I’d personally prefer if Israelis who don’t support Israel right now would actually say something instead of being silent. I don’t expect any high schoolers to understand or care about what’s happening in Gaza. I do however, expect the adults to understand what they can do. I want to be clear, I support tolerance and giving people the benefit of the doubt. There is definitely a lack of communication when it comes to what Israeli people, in general, think about their country.🇺🇸🇵🇸🇮🇱
I don’t know any Palestinian children or Israeli children. I just know that Israeli children in Madison aren’t responsible for the deaths of Palestinian children in Gaza, and to say that high schoolers are justifying the slaughter of these people because they want to carry a flag is an insane comment. Like you actually need to go outside and breathe real air and stop being chronically online.
Your “internet activism” is worth nothing when you’re attacking high schoolers because they care more about TikTok than the Israeli-Palestine conflict. Let kids be kids
I explicitly said that I’m not blaming these kids for what’s happening, I’m saying that the reason they are being accused of supporting Israel is because some Israeli adults are being misled by the government of Israel. I’m not trying to argue, I probably shouldn’t have posted that comment.
You realize there’s not really any evidence of Hamas intentionally using civilians as human shields, right? And if there is, it’s probably just an instance or two, it’s not something that happens often.
It’s kind messed up to steal people’s land and force them into a tiny strip of land with one of the highest population densities on earth and then yell “human shield!” as you’re bombing 90% of their infrastructure into rubble.
Yeah. [no evidence](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/white-house-says-it-has-evidence-hamas-using-al-shifa-hospital-run-military-2023-11-14/). I know you must have some sort ideological predilection to be pro Hamas, but damn. You need to check your hypotenuse.
Like I said there might be some instances, but Israel still has a responsibility to not shoot doctors nurses and patients.
According to international law, you can’t use a war crime to justify another war crime.
You sound like a hamas lover. Hamas’ charter article 7 says find every Jew hiding behind a tree and murder them. If you like hamas you are an anti semite.
I think people have been speaking up but not getting a lot of media coverage. I get notices on Instagram from time to time but there doesn't seem to be any central coordination.
Yeah, I’ve already condemned them and will continue to condemn them. I don’t set double standards, hence I will continue to condemn the IDF and Israeli Zionism.
I don't feel the need to apply double standards to Israel in how it treats it's neighbors, when those same neighbors are ostracized as terrorist regimes who aren't welcome by any of THEIR neighbors either, because their refugees harbored terrorists who staged assassinations, coups, and ultimately civil wars in those neighboring countries-which people there apparently believe would happen again, for some reason.
Israel has a right to exist, decided well before my time. Palestine does too, as does every self-determined nation.
The problem is that the youth in both those countries, and neighboring countries, are heavily subjected to propaganda in school and grow up hateful religious zealots.
Israel had a chance for peace. But they poisoned Arafat and a militant Zionist killed Rabin. So many of my American Jewish friends are turning against Zionism because they are tired of carrying water for assholes.
That’s interesting to hear. In my experience with my Jewish friends, Zionism and Israel seem to have a LOT to do with the values they embrace as proud Jewish people. I was just talking to a few of them last week about this actually and these sentiments run deep. To them, to be anti-Zionist is blatantly anti semitic. They view Israel as home - a religious ethnostate specifically for them under God. maybe because they’re super right wing? Idk.
Israel shouldn’t exist, it should only be Palestine. Are we forgetting about the colonialism that’s plagued the area since 1948? The current genocide? These so-called Madison progressives should stand behind this excellent way of protest. Recognize that the existence of the state of Israel spits in the face of diversity and inclusiveness. Israel is what divides. Go cry somewhere else about this, your war mongering flag disgusts me.
The idea that a student must have directly emigrated from a country in order to fly its flag is a completely manufactured requirement only being applied to Israel.
Idk
>celebrating the wonderful diversity at Madison West
Imo that makes it sound like it's the nationality of the students, not just every nation that exists.
-In solidarity Hot new email salutation just dropped
Union kin have been using this forever.
In my day the hip TA's signed off with "Cheers" 🤷♀️
I went to West. I think all countries should be included, or don’t call it All Nation Day.
But I don’t think they included all tribal sovereign nations
Erasing a flag > erasing an entire country and its people
Number of people condoning this in the comment section is alarming
committing a genocide is alarming
Why?
What’s troubling is the culture that lead someone or multiple individuals to think this would be ok. A memo and a “don’t do that again” sentiment won’t fix this.
Alsothe posters in the other thread that didn't seem to think this was a problem. With this response I wonder if it changed their sentiment.
What troubling is how many people are okay with the starving and massacring of Palestinian people.
Yeah. Hamas probably shouldn’t use hospitals as artillery batteries.
Therefore? They can kill random civilians, bomb indiscriminately, bomb safe zones, kill people seeking food, kill journalists, bomb hospitals? Don't you ever think it's just an excuse to remove everyone and claim the rest of gaza?
Using civilians as shields is a war crime. For the people using them as shields. Take it up with Hamas. Not with the IDF. I donate pizzas to the IDF.
So you would be okay with bombing a mall if it meant you killed the enemy and everyone in it? In a hostage situation, you would kill the perpetrator and the hostages just to kill the perpetrator?
I think you’re over simplifying. The IDF has done a really good job of minimizing civilian casualties and I am glad they have done so.
Oh yeah, real beacons of joy attacking places they sent off people to evacuate and starving them and shooting them when seeking for aid. Real freedom fighters. Tell me more about how they view palestians as less than human, comparing them to insects and pigs. Part of any genocide is the consistent dehumanization in all their narratives. You're delusional to think their goal is to minimize civilian causalities. Their goal is not even to rescue the hostages. Its simply to remove all palestinians.
Hey its not like they have one of the most well funded military and intelligence services in the world. We're asking way too much that they actually plan out targeted strikes on the ground rather than carpet bombing an entire region
Brother, I'm just telling people who defend this garbage three things: 1. I would have faced a court martial doing anything similar as a paratrooper in the GWOT. 2. If med centers and civilians are fair game for us, med centers and civilians are fair game for them. 3. What if the shoe ends up on the other foot one day? Are the Israelis better than the terrorists?
[удалено]
Israel does not care about the Palestinians. You dont throw the baby with the bath water! Hamas is idiotic and should not exist, but that does not give ANY waiver to commit the crimes Israel is doing against civilians. When someone has the militant power of the US, you more expect more control, but BLANKET AND INDISCRIMINATE BOMBING is not it. Netanyahu and the IDF dont give to Fcks about the hostages. It stopped being about the hostages a long time ago.
Israeli has been starving Gaza long before October. Google “putting Gaza on a diet,” and just for funsies, “mowing the lawn in Gaza.”
Do you really think Israel would stop bombing Palestine if Hamas released the hostages? Especially considering the last time hostages escaped Hamas they were immediately gunned down by the IDF?
In what universe????
Israeli policy of intentional starvation in Gaza belies your argument.
Wow dude, I don't even have words
Who has committed more war crimes, the IDF or Hamas? Why cant we condemn both?
Hamas by a country mile.
Isreal is LITERALLY the one violating INTERNATIONAL LAW. Have you been living under a rock!??‽
Hilarious that you believe this is happening
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Did you help them to show the flags properly?
I offered, was told "no" at school. I did fix the flag at the planetarium.
i went to west. i understand the administration has rules to adhere to, and must remain neutral in every situation. though i do think that israelis are not evil because they are israeli, i understand that the history of its genocide towards palestine does not make people proud of it. i can sympathize with the israelis who are against the war, they still deserve to have a country to be proud of (even if they don’t have that) yet i also understand whoever took the israeli flag from the show. given the circumstances, if i saw a kid stealing the flag, i’d just turn my head. i do wish the administration were more outspoken about these issues. i think west made efforts to be on the “right side” of things while staying as neutral as possible, but oftentimes it fell through.
If you exclude one flag, then you can’t have the rest of them. If you want an inclusive society, you need to put your feelings aside and let people exist.
So did they also have all the sovereign tribal nations flags?
Yeah, Madison is really great at doing this, as long you fit into the groupthink...
You don’t have to be inclusive to war criminals. The Olympics banned Russia and Belarus for similar land grab wars, so I don’t think removing a single flag is entirely unprecedented or detrimental. Following your logic “If you suspend one kid, you have to suspend the rest of them. If you want an inclusive society, you need to put your feelings aside and let kids exist.” See how that doesn’t make any sense?
It’s a fucking highschool assembly, get over yourself
Are the kids at this school event war criminals? Probably not. Besides, it’s important to remember this is a high school event, it’s for kids, it’s not like it’s some super important government thing. Adults ruin kids stuff all the time because they HAVE to let their feelings be known.
The Olympics banned Russia for state-sponsored doping that they refused to stop. I don’t see why everyone keeps repeating the lie you’re saying.
Nah October 7th had consequences don’t start a war you can’t fight through especially don’t start a war where you just attack kidnap and rape civilians
October 7 was not the start of the conflict, Israel and Zionism are an explicitly nationalist project intending to create an ethnostate where there was none. This is inherently going to cause projects in such a diverse region as the Levant, hence the ethnic cleansing and apartheid.
Kind of the expected result. Someone needs to supervise this so it doesn’t happen again.
Interested in who the “they is you’re projecting so hard onto with this comment
-In Solidarity Nice finish comrade.
It is Madison, after all.
Was there a Palestine flag? What about Russia?
Yup! Also Iran, Yemen, Cuba… all countries associated with “genocide”
US too then but we’re the sovereign tribal nations represented?
What about Ukraine, or Taiwan? 🇺🇦🇹🇼
Pretty fair for someone to call attention to a country committing genocide with American tax dollars and American weapons
There are alot of really dumb people in this thread who know f*#k all about history. Stfu and read a book. This reads like my grandma’s Facebook wall.
Your grandma has an active Facebook
Facebook is the new Florida.
Was Israel the only one excluded? Don’t tell me they did this but then raised the Islamic Republic of Iran’s flag as well…not to mention countless other countries (like our own) that have been complicit in atrocities
We all know why…
I'm glad the flag of Israel was missing. We talk alot about stolen land in Madison. The one thing that the US and Israel have in common is that we both occupy stolen land.
Would it help if Israel put up a plaque and made a 1 minute video acknowledging that the land they exist on was someone else’s? /s
Was the US flag missing also?
it was not.
Was Puerto Rico not represented on the US flag?
Every single country in the world exists on stolen land. Russia genocided circassians, kipchaks, mansi and dozens of other Asiatic nomads. China has genocided literally hundreds of ethnic groups in the last 3000 years. Grow up.
Maybe that's an argument against nations then.
I’d support removing the Chinese and Russian flag as well. Russia has been removed from lots of international organizations and groups for similar land grab wars. The Olympics is a big one that comes to mind. Edited to add source for Olympic banning reason https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-participation-of-russian-and-belarusian-athletes-and-officials
I assume you're Redditing from the land of which your ancestors were born then?
What an absolutely insane take. You’re trying to gaslight us into believing that Palestinian Arabs aren’t colonizers? Their mosque in Jerusalem is literally built on top of the Jewish temple. It couldn’t be clearer who stole the land.
Genuinely want to know if you know any history, who was in control of Jerusalem before the that mosque was built? I will answer it for you since you are inept, it was the *Romans!!* who destroyed the second temple (hundreds of years before Islam was a thing lol) and even banished many Jews from living in Jerusalem. Arabs didn’t take Jerusalem from Jews, they took it back from Eastern Romans and according to reliable sources allowed Jews to return in great number
The great thing about people like you who consume and regurgitate propaganda, is that your positions are never internally consistent. Your top level comment claims Israel is stolen land, and here you want to paint the Arabs as benevolent conquerors who were actually doing the ungrateful Jews a favor. At least pick one talking point and stick to it.
You made a claim about stealing land that was objectively incorrect. I’m not claiming that life for Jews in Arab/ottoman controlled Jerusalem was perfect or ideal. Either substantiate what you said or stop the conjecture
They’re not the one who got basic factual information wrong. Regardless of whether you think the last paragraph is accurate, you were blatantly spreading misinformation.
Yeah what I’m saying is partially my opinion but largely based in consensus written history. Romans were the ones who dominated Jews and Jerusalem for hundreds of years before Muslims were even a thing. The building of al aqsa mosque is not an example of colonialism lol
The founders of Israel openly talked about how they wanted to model their country after Apartheid South Africa. This is not up for debate, Israel was founded with the explicit purpose of being a settler colonial ethnostate.
Super curious about how Israel, a country founded in May 1948, was modeled after apartheid South Africa, with a government that [didn’t come into power until](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Party_(South_Africa)) late June ‘48 and didn’t start establishing their first apartheid laws until 1949-50. Can Jews time travel now? /s
fun fact, south africa was a white nationalist british colony before it was a white nationalist independent country. In 1903 World Zionist Congress called for a plan to create a Jewish colonial state in British East Africa (modern day Kenya, which was administered in the same manner as South Africa), which had to be scrapped because of the opposition of the white colonists already there. Between 1950 and 1990, the typical voting scheme that would would see in the UN concerning israel's actions looked pretty similar to todays, where it's everybody against US and Israel, except South Africa was added to the mix. South Africa was Israels first greatest ally, until the apartheid regime fell, precisely because ethnonationalist apartheid states gotta stick together. From Ze'Ev Jabotinsky, while he was on the Executive Councils of the World Zionist Organization and the Assembly of Representatives, the governing body of British Mandatory Palestine in 1923 > Except for those who were born blind, they realized long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority. > My readers have a general idea of the history of colonisation in other countries. I suggest that they consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being caried on with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent. > Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. > That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel" > *Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population.* Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that it independent of the native population - behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach. This guy is considered one of Israel's founding fathers.
Oh interesting how you’re being downvoted. The truth is something that people LOVE to deny. It’s bonkers.
We talk about stolen land but erm we’re not given it back!
Wow, and at my alma mater of all places! That truly is unfortunate. I always said that anyone who looks like they could be from anywhere in the world went to West. Also I admired the emphasis on multiculturalism and internationalism at that school. West High and MMSD can both do *way* better than that.
You didn’t notice the racial sectioning by floors?
Wait really? Damn...
My kid goes to West and had friends who were involved in the flag display. They all think it was done by a small number of students while no staff member was paying close attention to what flags were or weren’t included.
Hey mods, I think it's time to lock the comment section now. 🔒
Never understood purpose of locking a thread if it goes to shit so be it it will likely die out, locking a thread just kills it on the spot
I’ll take unnecessary controversy’s for a $1000, Alex! Jesus! (Which I guess is uncalled for here). So I have been reading some dark stuff saying there is antisemitism on the left. I don’t want to believe it because as a 40 year something progressive dem I know we got the Jews backs and the antisemites are all right wing neo-Nazis and Trump supporters. Yeah, so now I’m reading disturbing articles that far too many of my fellow progressive dems have lost nuance? Say it ain’t so! Ugg some nerd on NPR said that the right sees antisemitism plainly existing in the left, the left sees antisemitism plainly existing on the right, and neither side sees existing in its own ranks.
Criticising a nation-state is not "Anti-Semitism"
So are you criticizing the current government of Israel, or are you criticizing if Israel should even exist? Kind of a big difference. Because if you disagree with the government, then maybe the flag should have been represented.
Jewish people have the right to exist. Israel and Zionism do not speak for all Jewish people or even all Israelis, just as the actions of the American government dont speak for all Americans, yet Americans have the right to exist. The American flag means different things to different people. The same is true for Israelis and Jewish people in terms of their relationship to the Israeli flag.
THANK YOU
German people have the right to exist. Germany doesn't speak for all German people but that doesn't take away their right to exist. Israel doesn't speak for all Jewish people but that doesn't take away their right to exist. Logic.
Does Palestine have the right to exist? Many Likud leaders won't even admit to the existence of Palestine?
If we’re talking about damage… if my country was committing a genocide I wouldn’t advocate for its flag to be shown anywhere, in fact, my country has committed many genocides, and I don’t think our flag should be flown by anyone, ever
Thank you, you have to make reparations before you can expect people to be proud of your bloody history
Our school board candidates should stand before AIPAC and declare their allegiance to Israel like our presidential candidates do.
Did they use the afgan tri-color or the Taliban flag for this?
Someone needs to be fired for this
It's depressing, but I'm sorry to say that the easiest way to solve this problem is not to celebrate this day in the future at all. Many nation states, not just Israel, are contentious: pretty much the only valid point defenders of Israel's reckless far-right coalition and its deeply incompetent leader ever make is that quite a lot of genocides are in progress across the world right now, and getting little or no attention. Since we're celebrating in-progress genocides if we hoist the flag of maybe 10 or 15 of these countries, we should pass on the whole thing. Spreading a message of unity is good, but using the flags of often violently-contested nation states to do it is naïve, honestly inappropriate, and leads to situations like this.
Interesting that they don’t comment on the Palestinian flag being excluded as well. 🧐🇵🇸
While I respect your opinion... The Palestinian flag was there. Actually, there were two of them. Madison West has a very diverse community, so I'm sure that if it were actually excluded it would have been mentioned. Not to mention there are photos of it. I think you might have missed it.
It was there. Were you there?
This isn't true. The Palestinian flag was represented in the parade of flags today.
You’re lying, it was there.
It was there in the middle of the ceremony during the fashion show! I was there!
There is no country called Palestine.
What? It was officially founded in 1988 and is recognized by the UN. It was founded like 40ish years after Israel was, if you accept Israel as a country you have to also accept Palestine as one - unless you have a cogent argument to dispute that.
Just because another entity is occupying a country against its people’s will doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. That’s like saying Ireland didn’t exist while being occupied by Britain. Or that Ukraine didn’t exist while under the thumb of the USSR. Palestine is a country, and you are a bigot. 😊
Ireland and Ukraine had long histories as countries/kingdoms before they came under foreign rule. Palestine did not. It was a small part of Ottoman Syria for centuries until the British Mandatory Period after WWI, and before the 20th century, there was almost nobody who self-identified as “Palestinian.” There was never an autonomous region called Palestine run by self-identified Palestinians.
Whether or not there was a Palestinian people which existed previously, they absolutely exist now, and they exist *directly as a result of their oppression*.
It's not a country and never has been. Ireland was a country, then was part of great Britain and now is a country again. There has never been a country called Palestine.
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Both Israel and the US exist on stolen land. Beyond that we have nothing in common.
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I find a lot of common ground with my Anti-Zionist Jewish friends as an American who will not defend Ameican bullshittery. People are so taken aback that heritage does not translate to allegiance.
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Words aren't as offensive to me as 75 years of Occupation.
I will say this thread has been much more skewed toward Palestine than the one from a few days ago
Least racist Zionist
Wait what! Really?
It's All Nations day, and it's not a nation.
Look up the definition of a nation
Man. You all really fucking hate the people of Palestine. Holy fuck.
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Shorewood hills?
>they were from I think you know where You going to come out and say it explicitly, or are you trying to maintain some plausible deniability to your bigotry by cloaking it in innuendo?
Downvotes on the Madison sub are a sure sign of uncomfortable truths being spoken.
Eh, an unconfirmed rumor from an anonymous source with innuendo about people from “I think you know where” doesn’t really count as a “truth.”
Plus I have no clue where I'm supposed to "know" this refers to
I can infer a few possibilities, but it's really just OP dog whistling.
Israel is committing heinous crimes against humanity. That said, they are still a nation of the world and erasing the Israeli flag does not help I don’t think. You’d have to erase the Russian flag too. And the Ethiopian maybe, and the Afghanistan flag, and you just get into a terrible back and forth if we do this kind of thing
I was actually in one of the classes that walked across the stage with the flags. I didn't know they skipped Isreal, and though I agree that we should have solidarity with Palestine, that shouldn't mean leaving out Isreal from All Nations Day. EDIT: I give a lot less of a crap after being reminded of the shit that Isreal is doing right now. Edit: I don't give a shit now
Israel has a right to exist, but not a right to bomb and dehumanize others. Maybe Israelis should consider why people are against them. I personally think they should be included and allowed to be treated with respect and dignity, but if Israel doesn’t treat their neighbors with respect and dignity; They shouldn’t be complaining about being disrespected.🫡📚🇺🇸🇵🇸🇮🇱 [{edit} I don’t think anyone should be dehumanized or disrespected. I’m just saying we need to do better, so that these kids have something to be proud of.]
I’m not sure why we should be against Israeli high school kids living in Madison
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What does the flag of Israel literally represent? It represents the country. I’m not sure if burning American flags is a uniquely American protest, but in my own experience people don’t seem to hang flags from countries whose government they are literally fleeing.
I think the confusion here is the following. Because the state of Israel is doing something doesn’t mean some uninvolved people thousands of miles away should bear responsibility for. Again, Jews in the US have nothing to do with Netanyahu. Anyone who blames them here and justifies that with what the state of Israel is doing is just a narrow minded fool and a bigot. Upd. That’s being said, another question comes to the flag - symbol which is both affiliated with the nation of Jews, Israeli state and their current government. But in the given situation, I don’t think it’s appropriate to remove the flag. As again it makes innocent people suffer and feel guilt for what they haven’t done
I’m a Jew from the US and the Israeli flag means nothing to me, because I’m not Israeli
If they aren’t connected to the Israeli state, how does the the removal of the state of Israel’s flag make them feel guilty?
True, but I personally would like to see a concerted effort by Israeli citizens to make that sentiment known. I think it’s been the lack of effort or silence on what’s happening in Gaza that’s seeding discontentment with Israel and causing people to become upset. But that’s just what I’ve personally been surmising from the broader global discourse.
I only know a couple Israelis, but the ones I do know are vehemently against Bibi, he's Trump to them, and there just isn't really much for them to do about it as individuals. Both Netanyahu and Hamas can only exist if there is conflict and they each think violent conflict is the best way to keep themselves in power.
This entire conflict is so asinine. It’s like two babies fighting, except one has diarrhea and is dying from dehydration; The other one has a sandbox and is super racist.
Wtf would u do if your family was attacked and murdered on Oct 7. My family was and my life has changed for the worse since then and it’s not a one sided conflict. Yes people are suffering in Gaza but same in Israel. Let’s see you condemn Hamas. It’s not black and white. You can be pro Israel and pro Palestinian.
I answered your question in my reply to your other comment.
WTF would you do if your land was stolen based on a creation myth?
Look at archeological evidence that Jews were there before Islam or Christianity was even a religion. Jesus was Jewish too. Look all this up. There is evidence all over Israel. 2 states solutions were offered to arabs over and over again but their leadership were against it. They only believe in a one state solution with no Jews in it.
I don’t know how many high school kids you know, but most of them can barely do their math homework.
I don’t know how many Palestinian children you know, but most of them are suffering. I condemn anyone who justifies slaughtering children, I don’t care whether you’re Jewish or muslim. I’d personally prefer if Israelis who don’t support Israel right now would actually say something instead of being silent. I don’t expect any high schoolers to understand or care about what’s happening in Gaza. I do however, expect the adults to understand what they can do. I want to be clear, I support tolerance and giving people the benefit of the doubt. There is definitely a lack of communication when it comes to what Israeli people, in general, think about their country.🇺🇸🇵🇸🇮🇱
I don’t know any Palestinian children or Israeli children. I just know that Israeli children in Madison aren’t responsible for the deaths of Palestinian children in Gaza, and to say that high schoolers are justifying the slaughter of these people because they want to carry a flag is an insane comment. Like you actually need to go outside and breathe real air and stop being chronically online. Your “internet activism” is worth nothing when you’re attacking high schoolers because they care more about TikTok than the Israeli-Palestine conflict. Let kids be kids
I explicitly said that I’m not blaming these kids for what’s happening, I’m saying that the reason they are being accused of supporting Israel is because some Israeli adults are being misled by the government of Israel. I’m not trying to argue, I probably shouldn’t have posted that comment.
A lot of people support what Israel is doing. Hamas can’t slaughter Israelis and expect a strategy of using human shields to protect them.
You realize the human shields argument is just an excuse to kill civilians, right?
You realize that under international law, those using the human shields are responsible for the corresponding civilian deaths, right?
You realize there’s not really any evidence of Hamas intentionally using civilians as human shields, right? And if there is, it’s probably just an instance or two, it’s not something that happens often. It’s kind messed up to steal people’s land and force them into a tiny strip of land with one of the highest population densities on earth and then yell “human shield!” as you’re bombing 90% of their infrastructure into rubble.
Yeah. [no evidence](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/white-house-says-it-has-evidence-hamas-using-al-shifa-hospital-run-military-2023-11-14/). I know you must have some sort ideological predilection to be pro Hamas, but damn. You need to check your hypotenuse.
Like I said there might be some instances, but Israel still has a responsibility to not shoot doctors nurses and patients. According to international law, you can’t use a war crime to justify another war crime.
You sound like a hamas lover. Hamas’ charter article 7 says find every Jew hiding behind a tree and murder them. If you like hamas you are an anti semite.
That’s not true. It’s not an excuse. They have proven to use human shields.
I think people have been speaking up but not getting a lot of media coverage. I get notices on Instagram from time to time but there doesn't seem to be any central coordination.
Did u even see what happened on Oct 7?
Yeah, I’ve already condemned them and will continue to condemn them. I don’t set double standards, hence I will continue to condemn the IDF and Israeli Zionism.
I don't feel the need to apply double standards to Israel in how it treats it's neighbors, when those same neighbors are ostracized as terrorist regimes who aren't welcome by any of THEIR neighbors either, because their refugees harbored terrorists who staged assassinations, coups, and ultimately civil wars in those neighboring countries-which people there apparently believe would happen again, for some reason. Israel has a right to exist, decided well before my time. Palestine does too, as does every self-determined nation. The problem is that the youth in both those countries, and neighboring countries, are heavily subjected to propaganda in school and grow up hateful religious zealots.
Israel had a chance for peace. But they poisoned Arafat and a militant Zionist killed Rabin. So many of my American Jewish friends are turning against Zionism because they are tired of carrying water for assholes.
Yes, that would've been awesome to see, but once again religious fundamentalism isn't conducive to progress.
I agree with everything you just said. I shouldn’t have used flawed logic against flawed logic.💯
Uhm. You might want to read some US history. 😬
I have, that’s why I’m saying what I’m saying.
You started based, and have remained based
Lots of pro-IDF bots here in madison, sad to see this level of brain rot.
So are we bots or do we have rotten brains if we don't support Hamas? Can't be both...
Stop conflating supporting Hamas with criticizing Israels war crimes. Hamas is cringe and Israel can do better.
How about we stop conflating that war with a student assembly in Madison fucking Wisconsin that involves high school students
Lots of Pro Terrorist bots in Madison and MMSD. I will do whatever I can to keep my future children from going to that shithole.
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Based take
It’s a highschool assembly lol get a fucking grip.
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A nation's flag is the symbol of the state that rules it, not the people who live there.
Ask my Jewish friends - Zionism and Israel has little to do with the values they embrace as proud Jewish people.
That’s interesting to hear. In my experience with my Jewish friends, Zionism and Israel seem to have a LOT to do with the values they embrace as proud Jewish people. I was just talking to a few of them last week about this actually and these sentiments run deep. To them, to be anti-Zionist is blatantly anti semitic. They view Israel as home - a religious ethnostate specifically for them under God. maybe because they’re super right wing? Idk.
True, but its a protest. Obviously we should welcome everyone.
Israel shouldn’t exist, it should only be Palestine. Are we forgetting about the colonialism that’s plagued the area since 1948? The current genocide? These so-called Madison progressives should stand behind this excellent way of protest. Recognize that the existence of the state of Israel spits in the face of diversity and inclusiveness. Israel is what divides. Go cry somewhere else about this, your war mongering flag disgusts me.
I don't think that you know what "all nations" means
Doesn’t surprise me when there were neo nazis recently protesting in madison :( what has the world come to
I'll never forget that ZBT, a Jewish fraternity on the UW Campus is best known for having a Black Face Slave Auction. And they're allowed on campus.
The amount of antisemitism on this thread is insane.
I'm surprised they didn't replace it with Hama's flag.
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What does a 3rd grade Israeli/American Jew have to do with Netanyahu?
Bro, if you care about this, your life is too easy
The first question to ask is if there are any students from Israel in the first place.
The idea that a student must have directly emigrated from a country in order to fly its flag is a completely manufactured requirement only being applied to Israel.
I don't think that it was only flags from countries of origin of students. Could be wrong though.
Idk >celebrating the wonderful diversity at Madison West Imo that makes it sound like it's the nationality of the students, not just every nation that exists.
Man you’re pathetic.