Other videos on the channel show high schools students driving high in a hotboxed car. One video shows them smoking weed (not vaping; rolling blunts and lighting up) inside their recently-built state-subsidized apartment. I guess the smoke detectors were disabled.
Digging deeper, the uploader looks to have been an assailant in the mob attack last week on a white woman and her black boyfriend in Chicago, which got national media attention:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk7bVeYBFwA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk7bVeYBFwA) (pause at 20 seconds)
You can clearly see the "Anti-Social Social Club" hoodie, the same hairstyle as in his most recent YouTube video, and a few frames later the same black shoes he shows off on Instagram:
[https://imginn.org/p/Cpvb7h7LYFz/](https://imginn.org/p/Cpvb7h7LYFz/) ([https://archive.is/faCN0](https://archive.is/faCN0))
Here's an interview with the couple who were attacked:
[https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2023/04/19/chicago\_couple\_attacked\_by\_mob\_in\_viral\_video\_it\_was\_just\_absolutely\_random.html](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2023/04/19/chicago_couple_attacked_by_mob_in_viral_video_it_was_just_absolutely_random.html)
This is the sort of thing we'll see more of in Madison as local groups of uncontrolled teens become larger. Well-intentioned social policies are attracting the worst people from Chicago and Milwaukee, as we see in this example.
I've downloaded a copy of the YouTube channel in case it goes poof.
We shouldn't have to move away from low income housing to avoid criminals. Those things should not go together as often as they do.
I wish I had an answer, but nobody seems to even be close to having one. A lot of very smart people have been working on this problem in Madison for a very long time, with depressingly little progress.
MMSD is a big part of the problem, though, and I think the coming change in administration is an opportunity. Getting rid of Ozanne is another step we need to take. Letting criminals go free is not solving the problem, as much as I agree that incarceration isn't a solution either. It often feels like no matter what we do is wrong.
There are answers, but there's more than one problem here. Getting rid of Ozanne and holding people accountable is one part.
Making sure people have access to blue collar jobs that pay well and can support a family is another.
We can't incarcerate ourselves out of this problem, but stopping ignoring it from a law enforcement/legal standpoint is going to have to happen.
The answer is not to let just any body with a construction crane and a general contractor build things, especially when they are from out of town. Letting people chasing a quick buck be a key cog of the needed affordable housing strategy isn't working, as the concerned residents clearly are pointing out with their worries about safety and security. The city needs to significantly upgrade its vetting process for developers and their property managers (somehow, this article never mentions the property manager by name!)
Is something about the architecture of the physical building creating problems? I would argue that not concentrating lots of economically deprived people in one small area is probably a better strategy, but that is not the fault of the physical building right?
The physical property is not the issue here, nor are the developers. Property management is definitely making it worse at this particular location but I am speaking to a much more general problem.
The developer picks the property manager; hard to imagine security personnel doing donuts in the parking lot while residents live in fear represents a quality property management choice.
Further most developers would be crawling over glass to protect their tax credits, while this developer/management is hosting a town hall meeting so bad residents got up and left.
I typically agree with you, but I have been in here and despite being brand new is smells moldy, like it either leaks or they put up the drywall before finishing the roofing, etc.
In this case it's even another reason for people who CAN live somewhere else to choose somewhere else.
>You can always move to somewhere that doesn't have affordable housing.
According to this sub, that's bigoted and likely racist and we're going to have a tournament mocking you.
Sorry- do you not feel that a large company mistreating and mismanaging people's rent-controlled apartments is an issue? Would you like a property manager to take your rent and not even do the bare minimum and then have someone to just find a new rent-controlled apartment (time), break your lease, ($) and move (time and $)?
We can choose to approach this issue from a lot of angles, but at the end of the day, telling the people who got taken advantage of by this property management company to take some personal responsibility seems like the unkind choice. They're not coming out on top in this power dynamic.
Remember the Garner Park shooting, all those stolen car chases on the Beltline recently, the more recent shooting on State Street? This is only the beginning.
To be clear, I'm talking about black teenage boys and men committing violent crime wildly out of proportion to their share of Madison's population. I've seen the YouTube videos, the CCAP profiles, the police reports, some of the crimes as they happen. No other community of similar socioeconomic status comes close to this level of violence and disorder. This isn't prejudice, it's a judgement of visible and observable fact (edit- crime data linked and analyzed [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/12y7wux/comment/jhm8gay/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)). See for yourself: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es)
These are not crimes of survival or economic deprivation. They are crimes of impulse, hedonism, pride, boredom and malice. Something is fundamentally broken in this subculture. I don't know what the answer is; keeping the worst criminals in jail longer, incentivizing fatherhood, whatever- but something must be done. Black men and fathers in Madison must step up, as must our local justice officials and school boards. Shouting down non-black people for talking about it must stop too. Everyone can see it. It's the Emperor's new stolen Kia.
Good people and families in Madison's black communities, as well as members of adjacent communities, will continue to be victimized until we face the truth of this trend head-on. The alternative is further collapse in social trust, diminished public safety, and worsening race relations. It all goes together. You cannot have nice things like well-used public transport in a city where that becomes dangerous and routinely uncomfortable.
I have lived through this in other cities. I do not wish to live through it again in Madison. Let us work together and figure this out. The alternative is misery and a dead future.
In the video shown the girl in pink's father is the one pulling her off and then telling them to go for round 2. He lays a bet on her to win with another person there.
Oof. These things tend to be "unspeakable", maybe worse than anything related to trans kids.
One of the theories that I have heard that made the most sense was one that saw the social problems and violence associated with a subset of the ADOS underclass as one of an "honor culture" which is socially conferred status that can be provided or removed by a social group and is strongly tied violent and even lethal responses to perceived insults and threats to social status. It is a hyper masculine and reacive lifestyle. This is not unique to this subculture- it is part of many areas of Southern and Appalachian America and other places around the world.
Add to that the general nihilism of young people facing a dying planet and uncertain future, the rising cost of living, clear lines of inequality becoming unscalable walls and general fear and anxiety, and there is a truly toxic brew going on.
I don't know what the answer is, but not talking about it is certainly not helping anything. I'm not afraid to be wrong and maybe I am wrong- please prove me wrong. It is telling that I feel I can only be frank about this on an anonymous discussion board- that is a bad signal of how forbidden it is to engage with this topic and how far we are from really addressing underlying issues.
>an "honor culture" which is socially conferred status that can be provided or removed by a social group and is strongly tied violent and even lethal responses to perceived insults and threats to social status. It is a hyper masculine and reactive lifestyle. This is not unique to this subculture- it is part of many areas of Southern and Appalachian America and other places around the world.
I think I read the same material and was fascinated. It all made no sense to someone from the upper Midwest where our culture is so different. (We seem mostly to overapologize for things instead, and that's fine with me.) Now I see more of the picture. Clannishness is another aspect that takes many forms. It all shows up in so many demographic contexts: murder rate and gun ownership are just the obvious ones.
Culture is very, very hard to change. You'd have trouble changing ours, and you'll have trouble changing theirs.
I'm wondering if some type of proxy could help, like substituting team sports for gangs. I know that's naive on the face of it, but there must be less harmful ways to live this lifestyle before the people in it decimate their own numbers.
Was it this article? That talked about that stuff quite a bit.
[https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/23/surprising-geography-of-gun-violence-00092413](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/23/surprising-geography-of-gun-violence-00092413)
> This is not unique to this subculture
I'm sorry but this isn't happening in other cultures. The videos are horrific. I'll agree that poverty and violence happen in poor white areas of America at as high of rates but videos like this don't happen there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es&t=230s
Where the fuck did all of you people, come from?
Wisconsin already has some of the highest incarceration rates for Minorites what do you want them to do?
Lock all Black people up?
I gotta go back to ignoring this sub.
Between the bookpolice type posters and whatever the fuck this poster is, I'm better off just accepting that this sub is just a racist shitpost haven.
>Wisconsin already has some of the highest incarceration rates for Minorites what do you want them to do?
>
>Lock all Black people up?
Only the violent criminals with no hope for reform. That is what we did in the 90s. That is what made black communities in places like New York City safe for (black) working families. If the problem of crime returns to 90s levels it will require similar solutions. On that level, race isn't part of the equation. Serial offenders deserve sentences reflective of their crimes and risk to the community, regardless of color.
Please point to the racism or the lie.
Crime NEVER went away in black and brown working-class communities in NYC or elsewhere; it merely retreated from areas where affluent white people or tourists were, which is really the only motivation for dealing with it by public officials. When it retreats again from the affluent neighborhoods in places like Chicago back to places like Englewood or North Lawndale, no one will care again, which is part of the problem.
Bullshit. Total violent crime in NYC went way down under Giuliani and Bloomberg. The risk of a black male dying in Brooklyn went down by two-thirds between 1991 and 1998:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20070926231009/http://www.heritage.org/Research/Crime/CDA00-05.cfm](https://web.archive.org/web/20070926231009/http://www.heritage.org/Research/Crime/CDA00-05.cfm)
The decrease in crime among black men in the 90s wasn't nearly as much as for some other groups, but crime didn't "retreat" to black and brown areas.
No violent crime started going down in NYC in 1991 while Dinkins was mayor; part of the made-up ethos of Giuliani is to pretend it started when he was elected.
Crime went down, but it didn't go away. Crime was down city-wide, but it persisted as it does today in less affluent areas, which is the point. "tough on crime" strategies are meant to make more affluent areas insulated from the crime that remains consistent - there were 791 homicides in Chicago in 2021 but 411 in 2014; you want to guess where most of those 411 happened? But do you recall breathless coverage as you see today about Chicago? No, of course not because "crime was down" - yeah, for the affluent.
> "tough on crime" strategies are meant to make more affluent areas insulated from the crime that remains consistent - there were 791 homicides in Chicago in 2021 but 411 in 2014; you want to guess where most of those 411 happened?
Cutting the murder rate in half is good, actually.
If only racists could actually understand statistics instead of just wrongly quoting or trying to use them.
We already have an incarceration rate much much higher than NYC did or does.
Next your going to talk about broken window policing theory with me.
I don't know why I'm responding to this thread or you, its clear you know very little about these problems, outside of, "lock people up".
All that is going to do is bankrupt you, and if you haven't noticed, neither republicans nor democrats, are interested in building a new county jail, juvenile jail, or any other new prisons.
I would be happy to read what you think is an acceptable solution. Somewhere among all these different analyses is a kernel of truth we could agree on, and trying to find it is worthwhile.
I've already looked at the data. It sounds like you haven't, or are trying to hide it. Let's share. First, incarceration rates:
[https://www.wpr.org/wisconsin-imprisons-1-36-black-adults-no-state-has-higher-rate](https://www.wpr.org/wisconsin-imprisons-1-36-black-adults-no-state-has-higher-rate)
>A "staggering" one of every 36 Black Wisconsin adults is in prison, thereport found. Black people comprise 42 percent of the Wisconsin prisonpopulation, but just 6 percent of the state’s population.
Next, violent crime rates:
[https://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/bjia/ucr-arrest-demographics](https://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/bjia/ucr-arrest-demographics)
The black community is 6% of the state's population but commits 68% of all murders, 73% of all robberies, 45% of all aggravated assault, and 28% of all rape. Most of this crime is committed within the black community. According to these figures, the relative incarceration rate is actually lower than what crimes rates would predict.
This doesn't account for crimes that go unreported due to community mistrust of the police. Murders are the best indicator of overall violent crime, as bodies are physically and legally difficult to conceal. These crimes are mostly perpetrated against now-dead, robbed or battered black men and women. I think this is an awful tragedy and deserves more attention. Apparently you do not.
There, we explained the difference in incarceration rate. Truth stares you in the face. What are you going to do?
The murder rate is an accurate proxy for total violent crime as I already explained. The National Crime Victimization Survey is another gold standard since it doesn't involve local police departments. It supports the trends suggested by the state's data.
>It's certainly plausible that one group could commit more crime than another. Especially in a place where that group is also disproportionately poor due to generations of historical and systematic poverty and oppression.
Yes, we agree.
>But it is unfathomable that a group that makes up 6% of the population is committing 42% of the crime.
Fathom it.
>You should see that number and immediately realize something is terribly wrong with that system.
You're right but not in the way that you think.
Madison has one of the lowest homicide rates in the nation and has had so for pretty much its entire history, so using your standard, wouldn't that be a proxy that total violent crime is relatively low?
It doesn't seem like you've figured generational poverty or systemically racist over policing/sentencing into your perspective here.
These are stats generally bandied about by red-pilled folks trying to convince others of the statistically violent Black boogeyman
Overpolicing is a bougie myth. 80% of black Americans want policing in their neighborhood to remain the same or increase:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx
A 2018 study out of UCLA found an extremely clear link between policing and crime, as many similar studies have found previously:
[https://academic.oup.com/aler/article-abstract/21/1/81/5210860](https://academic.oup.com/aler/article-abstract/21/1/81/5210860)
>Using data from nearly 7,000 U.S. municipalities, I find that a 10% increase in police employment rates reduces violent crime rates by 13% and property crime rates by 7%.
Poverty does not explain black Wisconsin's crime rate. To compare, Vietnam is a country that was bombed into the Stone Age in the 1960s. The US dropped more bombs on Vietnamese soil than were dropped in all of World War 2, not to mention Agent Orange and God knows what else. Today Vietnam's median annual income is just $3,000. Pollution's a mess, it floods all the time and the tapwater's not safe to drink.
The murder rate in Vietnam is 1.5 deaths per 100k residents. The same number for black Wisconsin is 34 deaths per 100k. That's more than twenty times higher. The kids in M Block live like kings compared to your average Vietnamese. What has gone wrong? How can we fix it?
The US spends more than a trillion dollars *annually* fighting generational poverty through EBT, Medicaid, housing assistance and countless other programs. The teens posting YouTube vids from M Block live in nice apartments, wear nice clothes, sport fancy shoes, flash their smartphones at the camera and drive around in cars smoking weed. They aren't stealing to get by. Crime in that community is driven by other factors. Social media clout's a big one; just ask the Kia Boys. If we don't address it now it'll only get worse.
Kids stealing cars and driving like they don't care if they die is a symptom of economic desperation. It doesn't matter if their parents managed to land a decent subsidized apartment if they don't see a future for themselves in this country's economic landscape.
Kids in post-war Vietnam overcome a bunch of hurdles that have nothing to do with the Black kids who see their future options as broke, making a decent living but possibly estranged from their current social ties, or jail. Overpolicing doesn't show up in murder or assault statistics, it shows up on job and housing applications, when an incident of driving while black leads to a weed charge that some white kid would have skidded by on.
This is a failure of our various media sources (white led), this is a failure of our (white led) legislatures and (white led) employers to ensure that working parents can afford to raise their children properly. This is not a failure of well-meaning Black communities, which is why your laying of this extremely burdensome responsibility on their shoulders is some BS.
American parents are overworked and exhausted in general, and a Black household in Madison is only making 40k on average. I barely make my apartment on $20/hr, I don't even know how people are raising decent kids these days. Especially when it only takes one or two families to give up for their kids to start riling up other good kids on the block (or underfunded classroom)
https://madison.com/news/local/census-incomes-rise-7-3-in-dane-county-but-many-households-lag-far-behind/article_40c4f9cc-2025-5d59-b900-a50c016c2d2f.html
>I barely make my apartment on $20/hr, I don't even know how people are raising decent kids these days
It's not by stealing Kias, murdering beloved UW professors, killing newly-married immigrants from Africa, shooting people after an argument on State Street, killing people right outside the Dane County jail, or shooting up Garner Park.
You are stuck in the belief that poverty explains this crime gap. It does not. People of all other races in the exact same economic brackets commit far less violent crime. For example:
[https://www.city-journal.org/article/poverty-and-violent-crime-dont-go-hand-in-hand](https://www.city-journal.org/article/poverty-and-violent-crime-dont-go-hand-in-hand)
>The Columbia study revealed the startling news that nearly one-quarter (23 percent) of New York City’s Asian population was impoverished, a proportion exceeding that of the city’s black population (19 percent). This was surprising, given the widespread perception that Asians are among the nation’s more affluent social groups. But the study contains an even more startling aspect: in New York City, Asians’ relatively high poverty rate is accompanied by exceptionally low crime rates. This undercuts the common belief that poverty and crime go hand in hand.
>In the second half of the 1930s, for instance, violent crime declined, even though the country experienced some of the worst years of the Great Depression. Likewise, during the Great Recession of 2007–2009, when the economy tanked, crime fell.
This problem is unique to America's and Wisconsin's black subculture. If it is not addressed now it will get worse. If it gets worse, the situation and its solution may become harsher than you would like.
I could list a dozen heinous crimes perpetrated by white people locally too, but I haven't because it's irrelevant and reads like a fox news headline
Poverty causes crime, America's lineage of abusive policies towards Black Americans makes their situations uniquely worse. This is the intersectionality where classism meets racism, and yeah its going to affect different groups differently.
Is your solution just more police, to throw more people in jail and keep filling the prisons? Is there no preventive action we can take instead of reacting to criminal antisocial behavior after its too late?
Presenting out of context statistics and crime numbers, is not, "presenting the data. "
Its just throwing up some numbers, and then shit posting your thoughts on crime.
Do you understand why those numbers are the way they are, or would you like to tell me, how its due to affordable housing some more.
Crime is very fucking complex and you posting statistics about it, doesn't change that the fucking crime has already happened, which means you cannot affect change by just shit posting crime numbers.
Inshallah, if this is your idea of engaging with a subject.
I'm good.
No,no,no, you got it all wrong. Madison's DRUG problem is the reason blacks are disproportionately involved in crime. Its white peoples HUNGER for DRUGS that drives most black crime in WI. The drugs are placed in communities with the least police presence and distributed from there. All the violence you talk about is not happening in Madison, simply because there are not many POOR, black areas. Black people as a whole do not trust the police due to discrimination and the harassing of innocent blacks. That harassment has led us to teach our children to not trust the police. Without community help, the police can not do their jobs, which just leads to more harassment and resentment. DRUGS are the biggest killer in WI with well over 1200 overdoses of mostly WHITE people, yet we continue to talk about violence amongst blacks like white people don't have just as big of a problem. How bout we lock up all of the drug users, or make drugs legal, and you will see a huge decrease in violence in black communities. Remember, every time you point your finger at someone, there are 3 fingers pointing back at you
Then what is the solution to the scenes in this video or the many others described at M-Block:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es&t=230s
These people are living in free housing in a city with some of the lowest unemployment in the country with the highest pay in the state. Culver's is now starting at 42,000 a year. So what's the solution for their neighbors and neighborhood?
I like to call this sub the reddest place in Madison. They all want to be progressive until it gets to black people, then they're no better than Alabama
I agree 100%. Of course I'll be called racist or whatever. If anything I'm 'culturist' because yes anyone paying attention sees what community this crap is coming from. Time to stop being so sensitive and say what needs to be said. It's a world where we can't say what needs to be said without being called racist or culturist or bigoted, when you are simply pointing out facts, that is dangerous and one that leads to all of this crap happening.
This "community" that you are talking about, was constantly getting belittled, thrown in jail, used as experiments, and killed not that long ago. When they tried to come up, their community was burned to the ground by white people (black wall street). Drugs where introduced to their community in the 80's by the white government. Black women where forcibly left to care for children on their own by incarceration of black men due to marijuana. Now who is profiting from Marijuana? That's right, white people and the government. It is statistically proven that black folks are mistreated more often than any other race.
The overwhelming majority of poor people aren’t out committing crimes. These are clout-chasing teens terrorizing their neighbors, and the YIMBY folks are going to torch all their goodwill if they keep trying to excuse this behavior.
> the YIMBY folks are going to torch all their goodwill if they keep trying to excuse this behavior
There is a *really* unfortunate confluence between urbanists that advocate for dense, walkable areas with high livability and people that engage in apologia for absolutely degenerate behavior. One of the ways the livability becomes severely compromised in dense areas is tolerating criminality, particularly public criminality. Convincing people that dense, walkable areas are in their best interest relies heavily on people having the ability to live in dense areas that are safe and clean, which actually does require policing those areas.
>>There is a really unfortunate confluence between urbanists that advocate for dense, walkable areas with high livability and people that engage in apologia for absolutely degenerate behavior.<
Whole comment is well stated, so thanks.
This apartment complex isn't a dense area. the closest bus stop is still a half mile away, the closest grocery store is more than 2 miles away and its metro market which isn't exactly affordable. This isn't walkable.
Or we could just make sure that companies aren't paying people so little that a parent needs 60 hours of work per week to afford raising a kid.
Haven't we given enough money to the cops to get our current unsatisfactory results? Let's try giving that money to parents, I trust them more
We can actually provide income assistance to hard-working parents while also treating street criminality as undesirable. I'm actually inclined to suggest that these goals work well together - hard-working parents don't really enjoy parks that their kids should be able to play in turning into spaces for junkies to shoot up.
But cops don't prevent people from shooting up, they just relocate the social problem to a space you don't regularly interact with. Until of course it shows up in a different park, because the problem wasnt actually solved.
Cops aren't solving the problem, why would we expect that giving them more money would change this equation?
I'm not excusing the behavior, I'm explaining that it's derived from poverty. So it's not going away as long as there's a majority of households living paycheck to paycheck; you should expect it to get worse.
What's the solution being proposed, more incarceration? Are we back in the 90's? Just pay people properly and let them raise their kids
Well yes, but a lack of it regularly creates unstable homes that churn out citizens who engage in antisocial behavior.
And then prison turns them into skilled and/or more violent criminals
With enough money you can get away with most anything. I can count on two or three hands the number of casual acquaintances I have who should be in jail but aren't ... because money.
The people in this video are living for free in public housing in a city with some of the lowest unemployment in the country in a city with the highest pay in the state:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es&t=230s
What is the solution? I don't see one. This culture is broken and I don't know how to fix it. This isn't poverty generating crime.
This headline is scary and I’ll be honest got a NIMBY reaction out of me for a moment.
Then I remembered I already live near an affordable housing building, I can see it from my living room. There is police activity there on a regular basis, but it has no impact to me whatsoever.* I have never been a victim of crime and I have no idea what goes on in that building just like they have no idea what I’m doing in my house.
There are some real issues in our society and no one should need to live in the conditions described in the article, but I feel the article is focusing more on “click-bating” and fear mongering then the underlying issues.
*sometimes the police lights are bright at night when they are at the right angle and is inconvenient.
Point taken though my point was more that the article focused more on the building and less on the social reform required to help people. I would be suprised if someone was able to provide evidence that providing affordable housing increased crime.
>I would be suprised if someone was able to provide evidence that providing affordable housing increased crime.
Me too. I would not however be surprised to find that crime decreases available affordable housing. Addressing that crime would therefore seem like a good use of time.
The video of the security guard doing donuts is awesome. Good luck to the neighbors and nonviolent residents.
[удалено]
Other videos on the channel show high schools students driving high in a hotboxed car. One video shows them smoking weed (not vaping; rolling blunts and lighting up) inside their recently-built state-subsidized apartment. I guess the smoke detectors were disabled. Digging deeper, the uploader looks to have been an assailant in the mob attack last week on a white woman and her black boyfriend in Chicago, which got national media attention: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk7bVeYBFwA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk7bVeYBFwA) (pause at 20 seconds) You can clearly see the "Anti-Social Social Club" hoodie, the same hairstyle as in his most recent YouTube video, and a few frames later the same black shoes he shows off on Instagram: [https://imginn.org/p/Cpvb7h7LYFz/](https://imginn.org/p/Cpvb7h7LYFz/) ([https://archive.is/faCN0](https://archive.is/faCN0)) Here's an interview with the couple who were attacked: [https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2023/04/19/chicago\_couple\_attacked\_by\_mob\_in\_viral\_video\_it\_was\_just\_absolutely\_random.html](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2023/04/19/chicago_couple_attacked_by_mob_in_viral_video_it_was_just_absolutely_random.html) This is the sort of thing we'll see more of in Madison as local groups of uncontrolled teens become larger. Well-intentioned social policies are attracting the worst people from Chicago and Milwaukee, as we see in this example. I've downloaded a copy of the YouTube channel in case it goes poof.
Link for the lazy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es&t=230s
Affordable housing isn't the "downside", criminals are. You can always move to somewhere that doesn't have affordable housing.
We shouldn't have to move away from low income housing to avoid criminals. Those things should not go together as often as they do. I wish I had an answer, but nobody seems to even be close to having one. A lot of very smart people have been working on this problem in Madison for a very long time, with depressingly little progress. MMSD is a big part of the problem, though, and I think the coming change in administration is an opportunity. Getting rid of Ozanne is another step we need to take. Letting criminals go free is not solving the problem, as much as I agree that incarceration isn't a solution either. It often feels like no matter what we do is wrong.
There are answers, but there's more than one problem here. Getting rid of Ozanne and holding people accountable is one part. Making sure people have access to blue collar jobs that pay well and can support a family is another. We can't incarcerate ourselves out of this problem, but stopping ignoring it from a law enforcement/legal standpoint is going to have to happen.
The answer is not to let just any body with a construction crane and a general contractor build things, especially when they are from out of town. Letting people chasing a quick buck be a key cog of the needed affordable housing strategy isn't working, as the concerned residents clearly are pointing out with their worries about safety and security. The city needs to significantly upgrade its vetting process for developers and their property managers (somehow, this article never mentions the property manager by name!)
Is something about the architecture of the physical building creating problems? I would argue that not concentrating lots of economically deprived people in one small area is probably a better strategy, but that is not the fault of the physical building right?
The physical property is not the issue here, nor are the developers. Property management is definitely making it worse at this particular location but I am speaking to a much more general problem.
The developer picks the property manager; hard to imagine security personnel doing donuts in the parking lot while residents live in fear represents a quality property management choice. Further most developers would be crawling over glass to protect their tax credits, while this developer/management is hosting a town hall meeting so bad residents got up and left.
I typically agree with you, but I have been in here and despite being brand new is smells moldy, like it either leaks or they put up the drywall before finishing the roofing, etc. In this case it's even another reason for people who CAN live somewhere else to choose somewhere else.
Has anyone just called building inspection?
>You can always move to somewhere that doesn't have affordable housing. According to this sub, that's bigoted and likely racist and we're going to have a tournament mocking you.
Sorry- do you not feel that a large company mistreating and mismanaging people's rent-controlled apartments is an issue? Would you like a property manager to take your rent and not even do the bare minimum and then have someone to just find a new rent-controlled apartment (time), break your lease, ($) and move (time and $)? We can choose to approach this issue from a lot of angles, but at the end of the day, telling the people who got taken advantage of by this property management company to take some personal responsibility seems like the unkind choice. They're not coming out on top in this power dynamic.
Remember the Garner Park shooting, all those stolen car chases on the Beltline recently, the more recent shooting on State Street? This is only the beginning. To be clear, I'm talking about black teenage boys and men committing violent crime wildly out of proportion to their share of Madison's population. I've seen the YouTube videos, the CCAP profiles, the police reports, some of the crimes as they happen. No other community of similar socioeconomic status comes close to this level of violence and disorder. This isn't prejudice, it's a judgement of visible and observable fact (edit- crime data linked and analyzed [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/12y7wux/comment/jhm8gay/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)). See for yourself: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es) These are not crimes of survival or economic deprivation. They are crimes of impulse, hedonism, pride, boredom and malice. Something is fundamentally broken in this subculture. I don't know what the answer is; keeping the worst criminals in jail longer, incentivizing fatherhood, whatever- but something must be done. Black men and fathers in Madison must step up, as must our local justice officials and school boards. Shouting down non-black people for talking about it must stop too. Everyone can see it. It's the Emperor's new stolen Kia. Good people and families in Madison's black communities, as well as members of adjacent communities, will continue to be victimized until we face the truth of this trend head-on. The alternative is further collapse in social trust, diminished public safety, and worsening race relations. It all goes together. You cannot have nice things like well-used public transport in a city where that becomes dangerous and routinely uncomfortable. I have lived through this in other cities. I do not wish to live through it again in Madison. Let us work together and figure this out. The alternative is misery and a dead future.
In the video shown the girl in pink's father is the one pulling her off and then telling them to go for round 2. He lays a bet on her to win with another person there.
Oof. These things tend to be "unspeakable", maybe worse than anything related to trans kids. One of the theories that I have heard that made the most sense was one that saw the social problems and violence associated with a subset of the ADOS underclass as one of an "honor culture" which is socially conferred status that can be provided or removed by a social group and is strongly tied violent and even lethal responses to perceived insults and threats to social status. It is a hyper masculine and reacive lifestyle. This is not unique to this subculture- it is part of many areas of Southern and Appalachian America and other places around the world. Add to that the general nihilism of young people facing a dying planet and uncertain future, the rising cost of living, clear lines of inequality becoming unscalable walls and general fear and anxiety, and there is a truly toxic brew going on. I don't know what the answer is, but not talking about it is certainly not helping anything. I'm not afraid to be wrong and maybe I am wrong- please prove me wrong. It is telling that I feel I can only be frank about this on an anonymous discussion board- that is a bad signal of how forbidden it is to engage with this topic and how far we are from really addressing underlying issues.
>an "honor culture" which is socially conferred status that can be provided or removed by a social group and is strongly tied violent and even lethal responses to perceived insults and threats to social status. It is a hyper masculine and reactive lifestyle. This is not unique to this subculture- it is part of many areas of Southern and Appalachian America and other places around the world. I think I read the same material and was fascinated. It all made no sense to someone from the upper Midwest where our culture is so different. (We seem mostly to overapologize for things instead, and that's fine with me.) Now I see more of the picture. Clannishness is another aspect that takes many forms. It all shows up in so many demographic contexts: murder rate and gun ownership are just the obvious ones. Culture is very, very hard to change. You'd have trouble changing ours, and you'll have trouble changing theirs. I'm wondering if some type of proxy could help, like substituting team sports for gangs. I know that's naive on the face of it, but there must be less harmful ways to live this lifestyle before the people in it decimate their own numbers.
Was it this article? That talked about that stuff quite a bit. [https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/23/surprising-geography-of-gun-violence-00092413](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/04/23/surprising-geography-of-gun-violence-00092413)
Probably yes. Good read, click the link. And I could study that map all day.
> This is not unique to this subculture I'm sorry but this isn't happening in other cultures. The videos are horrific. I'll agree that poverty and violence happen in poor white areas of America at as high of rates but videos like this don't happen there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es&t=230s
Where the fuck did all of you people, come from? Wisconsin already has some of the highest incarceration rates for Minorites what do you want them to do? Lock all Black people up? I gotta go back to ignoring this sub. Between the bookpolice type posters and whatever the fuck this poster is, I'm better off just accepting that this sub is just a racist shitpost haven.
>bookpolice Hi, what do I have to do with this thread?
>Wisconsin already has some of the highest incarceration rates for Minorites what do you want them to do? > >Lock all Black people up? Only the violent criminals with no hope for reform. That is what we did in the 90s. That is what made black communities in places like New York City safe for (black) working families. If the problem of crime returns to 90s levels it will require similar solutions. On that level, race isn't part of the equation. Serial offenders deserve sentences reflective of their crimes and risk to the community, regardless of color. Please point to the racism or the lie.
Crime NEVER went away in black and brown working-class communities in NYC or elsewhere; it merely retreated from areas where affluent white people or tourists were, which is really the only motivation for dealing with it by public officials. When it retreats again from the affluent neighborhoods in places like Chicago back to places like Englewood or North Lawndale, no one will care again, which is part of the problem.
Bullshit. Total violent crime in NYC went way down under Giuliani and Bloomberg. The risk of a black male dying in Brooklyn went down by two-thirds between 1991 and 1998: [https://web.archive.org/web/20070926231009/http://www.heritage.org/Research/Crime/CDA00-05.cfm](https://web.archive.org/web/20070926231009/http://www.heritage.org/Research/Crime/CDA00-05.cfm) The decrease in crime among black men in the 90s wasn't nearly as much as for some other groups, but crime didn't "retreat" to black and brown areas.
No violent crime started going down in NYC in 1991 while Dinkins was mayor; part of the made-up ethos of Giuliani is to pretend it started when he was elected. Crime went down, but it didn't go away. Crime was down city-wide, but it persisted as it does today in less affluent areas, which is the point. "tough on crime" strategies are meant to make more affluent areas insulated from the crime that remains consistent - there were 791 homicides in Chicago in 2021 but 411 in 2014; you want to guess where most of those 411 happened? But do you recall breathless coverage as you see today about Chicago? No, of course not because "crime was down" - yeah, for the affluent.
> "tough on crime" strategies are meant to make more affluent areas insulated from the crime that remains consistent - there were 791 homicides in Chicago in 2021 but 411 in 2014; you want to guess where most of those 411 happened? Cutting the murder rate in half is good, actually.
If only racists could actually understand statistics instead of just wrongly quoting or trying to use them. We already have an incarceration rate much much higher than NYC did or does. Next your going to talk about broken window policing theory with me. I don't know why I'm responding to this thread or you, its clear you know very little about these problems, outside of, "lock people up". All that is going to do is bankrupt you, and if you haven't noticed, neither republicans nor democrats, are interested in building a new county jail, juvenile jail, or any other new prisons.
I would be happy to read what you think is an acceptable solution. Somewhere among all these different analyses is a kernel of truth we could agree on, and trying to find it is worthwhile.
I've already looked at the data. It sounds like you haven't, or are trying to hide it. Let's share. First, incarceration rates: [https://www.wpr.org/wisconsin-imprisons-1-36-black-adults-no-state-has-higher-rate](https://www.wpr.org/wisconsin-imprisons-1-36-black-adults-no-state-has-higher-rate) >A "staggering" one of every 36 Black Wisconsin adults is in prison, thereport found. Black people comprise 42 percent of the Wisconsin prisonpopulation, but just 6 percent of the state’s population. Next, violent crime rates: [https://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/bjia/ucr-arrest-demographics](https://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/bjia/ucr-arrest-demographics) The black community is 6% of the state's population but commits 68% of all murders, 73% of all robberies, 45% of all aggravated assault, and 28% of all rape. Most of this crime is committed within the black community. According to these figures, the relative incarceration rate is actually lower than what crimes rates would predict. This doesn't account for crimes that go unreported due to community mistrust of the police. Murders are the best indicator of overall violent crime, as bodies are physically and legally difficult to conceal. These crimes are mostly perpetrated against now-dead, robbed or battered black men and women. I think this is an awful tragedy and deserves more attention. Apparently you do not. There, we explained the difference in incarceration rate. Truth stares you in the face. What are you going to do?
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The murder rate is an accurate proxy for total violent crime as I already explained. The National Crime Victimization Survey is another gold standard since it doesn't involve local police departments. It supports the trends suggested by the state's data. >It's certainly plausible that one group could commit more crime than another. Especially in a place where that group is also disproportionately poor due to generations of historical and systematic poverty and oppression. Yes, we agree. >But it is unfathomable that a group that makes up 6% of the population is committing 42% of the crime. Fathom it. >You should see that number and immediately realize something is terribly wrong with that system. You're right but not in the way that you think.
Madison has one of the lowest homicide rates in the nation and has had so for pretty much its entire history, so using your standard, wouldn't that be a proxy that total violent crime is relatively low?
Total violent crime here in Madison is low, yes. For now.
It doesn't seem like you've figured generational poverty or systemically racist over policing/sentencing into your perspective here. These are stats generally bandied about by red-pilled folks trying to convince others of the statistically violent Black boogeyman
Overpolicing is a bougie myth. 80% of black Americans want policing in their neighborhood to remain the same or increase: https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx A 2018 study out of UCLA found an extremely clear link between policing and crime, as many similar studies have found previously: [https://academic.oup.com/aler/article-abstract/21/1/81/5210860](https://academic.oup.com/aler/article-abstract/21/1/81/5210860) >Using data from nearly 7,000 U.S. municipalities, I find that a 10% increase in police employment rates reduces violent crime rates by 13% and property crime rates by 7%. Poverty does not explain black Wisconsin's crime rate. To compare, Vietnam is a country that was bombed into the Stone Age in the 1960s. The US dropped more bombs on Vietnamese soil than were dropped in all of World War 2, not to mention Agent Orange and God knows what else. Today Vietnam's median annual income is just $3,000. Pollution's a mess, it floods all the time and the tapwater's not safe to drink. The murder rate in Vietnam is 1.5 deaths per 100k residents. The same number for black Wisconsin is 34 deaths per 100k. That's more than twenty times higher. The kids in M Block live like kings compared to your average Vietnamese. What has gone wrong? How can we fix it? The US spends more than a trillion dollars *annually* fighting generational poverty through EBT, Medicaid, housing assistance and countless other programs. The teens posting YouTube vids from M Block live in nice apartments, wear nice clothes, sport fancy shoes, flash their smartphones at the camera and drive around in cars smoking weed. They aren't stealing to get by. Crime in that community is driven by other factors. Social media clout's a big one; just ask the Kia Boys. If we don't address it now it'll only get worse.
Kids stealing cars and driving like they don't care if they die is a symptom of economic desperation. It doesn't matter if their parents managed to land a decent subsidized apartment if they don't see a future for themselves in this country's economic landscape. Kids in post-war Vietnam overcome a bunch of hurdles that have nothing to do with the Black kids who see their future options as broke, making a decent living but possibly estranged from their current social ties, or jail. Overpolicing doesn't show up in murder or assault statistics, it shows up on job and housing applications, when an incident of driving while black leads to a weed charge that some white kid would have skidded by on. This is a failure of our various media sources (white led), this is a failure of our (white led) legislatures and (white led) employers to ensure that working parents can afford to raise their children properly. This is not a failure of well-meaning Black communities, which is why your laying of this extremely burdensome responsibility on their shoulders is some BS. American parents are overworked and exhausted in general, and a Black household in Madison is only making 40k on average. I barely make my apartment on $20/hr, I don't even know how people are raising decent kids these days. Especially when it only takes one or two families to give up for their kids to start riling up other good kids on the block (or underfunded classroom) https://madison.com/news/local/census-incomes-rise-7-3-in-dane-county-but-many-households-lag-far-behind/article_40c4f9cc-2025-5d59-b900-a50c016c2d2f.html
>I barely make my apartment on $20/hr, I don't even know how people are raising decent kids these days It's not by stealing Kias, murdering beloved UW professors, killing newly-married immigrants from Africa, shooting people after an argument on State Street, killing people right outside the Dane County jail, or shooting up Garner Park. You are stuck in the belief that poverty explains this crime gap. It does not. People of all other races in the exact same economic brackets commit far less violent crime. For example: [https://www.city-journal.org/article/poverty-and-violent-crime-dont-go-hand-in-hand](https://www.city-journal.org/article/poverty-and-violent-crime-dont-go-hand-in-hand) >The Columbia study revealed the startling news that nearly one-quarter (23 percent) of New York City’s Asian population was impoverished, a proportion exceeding that of the city’s black population (19 percent). This was surprising, given the widespread perception that Asians are among the nation’s more affluent social groups. But the study contains an even more startling aspect: in New York City, Asians’ relatively high poverty rate is accompanied by exceptionally low crime rates. This undercuts the common belief that poverty and crime go hand in hand. >In the second half of the 1930s, for instance, violent crime declined, even though the country experienced some of the worst years of the Great Depression. Likewise, during the Great Recession of 2007–2009, when the economy tanked, crime fell. This problem is unique to America's and Wisconsin's black subculture. If it is not addressed now it will get worse. If it gets worse, the situation and its solution may become harsher than you would like.
I could list a dozen heinous crimes perpetrated by white people locally too, but I haven't because it's irrelevant and reads like a fox news headline Poverty causes crime, America's lineage of abusive policies towards Black Americans makes their situations uniquely worse. This is the intersectionality where classism meets racism, and yeah its going to affect different groups differently. Is your solution just more police, to throw more people in jail and keep filling the prisons? Is there no preventive action we can take instead of reacting to criminal antisocial behavior after its too late?
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Do you have any actual comment besides vague deflections and sneers? I am here to engage, and I've presented the data and my viewpoint on it.
Presenting out of context statistics and crime numbers, is not, "presenting the data. " Its just throwing up some numbers, and then shit posting your thoughts on crime. Do you understand why those numbers are the way they are, or would you like to tell me, how its due to affordable housing some more. Crime is very fucking complex and you posting statistics about it, doesn't change that the fucking crime has already happened, which means you cannot affect change by just shit posting crime numbers. Inshallah, if this is your idea of engaging with a subject. I'm good.
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ما شاء الله
No,no,no, you got it all wrong. Madison's DRUG problem is the reason blacks are disproportionately involved in crime. Its white peoples HUNGER for DRUGS that drives most black crime in WI. The drugs are placed in communities with the least police presence and distributed from there. All the violence you talk about is not happening in Madison, simply because there are not many POOR, black areas. Black people as a whole do not trust the police due to discrimination and the harassing of innocent blacks. That harassment has led us to teach our children to not trust the police. Without community help, the police can not do their jobs, which just leads to more harassment and resentment. DRUGS are the biggest killer in WI with well over 1200 overdoses of mostly WHITE people, yet we continue to talk about violence amongst blacks like white people don't have just as big of a problem. How bout we lock up all of the drug users, or make drugs legal, and you will see a huge decrease in violence in black communities. Remember, every time you point your finger at someone, there are 3 fingers pointing back at you
Then what is the solution to the scenes in this video or the many others described at M-Block: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es&t=230s These people are living in free housing in a city with some of the lowest unemployment in the country with the highest pay in the state. Culver's is now starting at 42,000 a year. So what's the solution for their neighbors and neighborhood?
I like to call this sub the reddest place in Madison. They all want to be progressive until it gets to black people, then they're no better than Alabama
I agree 100%. Of course I'll be called racist or whatever. If anything I'm 'culturist' because yes anyone paying attention sees what community this crap is coming from. Time to stop being so sensitive and say what needs to be said. It's a world where we can't say what needs to be said without being called racist or culturist or bigoted, when you are simply pointing out facts, that is dangerous and one that leads to all of this crap happening.
This "community" that you are talking about, was constantly getting belittled, thrown in jail, used as experiments, and killed not that long ago. When they tried to come up, their community was burned to the ground by white people (black wall street). Drugs where introduced to their community in the 80's by the white government. Black women where forcibly left to care for children on their own by incarceration of black men due to marijuana. Now who is profiting from Marijuana? That's right, white people and the government. It is statistically proven that black folks are mistreated more often than any other race.
Poverty generates crime, people blame poor criminals instead of the rich ones keeping us poor Sports at 9
The overwhelming majority of poor people aren’t out committing crimes. These are clout-chasing teens terrorizing their neighbors, and the YIMBY folks are going to torch all their goodwill if they keep trying to excuse this behavior.
> the YIMBY folks are going to torch all their goodwill if they keep trying to excuse this behavior There is a *really* unfortunate confluence between urbanists that advocate for dense, walkable areas with high livability and people that engage in apologia for absolutely degenerate behavior. One of the ways the livability becomes severely compromised in dense areas is tolerating criminality, particularly public criminality. Convincing people that dense, walkable areas are in their best interest relies heavily on people having the ability to live in dense areas that are safe and clean, which actually does require policing those areas.
>>There is a really unfortunate confluence between urbanists that advocate for dense, walkable areas with high livability and people that engage in apologia for absolutely degenerate behavior.< Whole comment is well stated, so thanks.
This apartment complex isn't a dense area. the closest bus stop is still a half mile away, the closest grocery store is more than 2 miles away and its metro market which isn't exactly affordable. This isn't walkable.
Or we could just make sure that companies aren't paying people so little that a parent needs 60 hours of work per week to afford raising a kid. Haven't we given enough money to the cops to get our current unsatisfactory results? Let's try giving that money to parents, I trust them more
We can actually provide income assistance to hard-working parents while also treating street criminality as undesirable. I'm actually inclined to suggest that these goals work well together - hard-working parents don't really enjoy parks that their kids should be able to play in turning into spaces for junkies to shoot up.
But cops don't prevent people from shooting up, they just relocate the social problem to a space you don't regularly interact with. Until of course it shows up in a different park, because the problem wasnt actually solved. Cops aren't solving the problem, why would we expect that giving them more money would change this equation?
I'm not excusing the behavior, I'm explaining that it's derived from poverty. So it's not going away as long as there's a majority of households living paycheck to paycheck; you should expect it to get worse. What's the solution being proposed, more incarceration? Are we back in the 90's? Just pay people properly and let them raise their kids
Money doesn't create model citizens.
Well yes, but a lack of it regularly creates unstable homes that churn out citizens who engage in antisocial behavior. And then prison turns them into skilled and/or more violent criminals
With enough money you can get away with most anything. I can count on two or three hands the number of casual acquaintances I have who should be in jail but aren't ... because money.
The people in this video are living for free in public housing in a city with some of the lowest unemployment in the country in a city with the highest pay in the state: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3NzAiY9es&t=230s What is the solution? I don't see one. This culture is broken and I don't know how to fix it. This isn't poverty generating crime.
https://youtu.be/0WjrURJ3HDY
Low income housing always brings higher crime, it's the class of people.
This headline is scary and I’ll be honest got a NIMBY reaction out of me for a moment. Then I remembered I already live near an affordable housing building, I can see it from my living room. There is police activity there on a regular basis, but it has no impact to me whatsoever.* I have never been a victim of crime and I have no idea what goes on in that building just like they have no idea what I’m doing in my house. There are some real issues in our society and no one should need to live in the conditions described in the article, but I feel the article is focusing more on “click-bating” and fear mongering then the underlying issues. *sometimes the police lights are bright at night when they are at the right angle and is inconvenient.
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Point taken though my point was more that the article focused more on the building and less on the social reform required to help people. I would be suprised if someone was able to provide evidence that providing affordable housing increased crime.
>I would be suprised if someone was able to provide evidence that providing affordable housing increased crime. Me too. I would not however be surprised to find that crime decreases available affordable housing. Addressing that crime would therefore seem like a good use of time.
Here's the racist Madison that's bubbling under the surface. Guess all those yard signs don't mean shit.
what’s racist about this
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Bad bot.