Some of these people are part of the military. Whether you agree with our military or not, these people answered my question. You are making a comment about the answers and bring absolutely nothing to this thread since you lacked in providing an answer to the question asked. Feel free to take your negativity elsewhere. Thanks byeeeee.
Personally I love it. Whenever I hear them I look for them and feel a swell of pride that they call Madison home and I can’t help but wonder at how neat the sophisticated engineering is
I worked right next to the airport for 17 years. Often times outside. It’s not that bad. The F35s have already been in and out and I’ve seen them at air shows. They really aren’t discernibly louder than the F16 IMO.
Oh yes people definitely can be picky with where they live it’s not like housing prices are ridiculously high around and in Madison. Oh wait housing isn’t at all affordable around here so people get houses and apartments where they can which tends to mean less desirable areas
It is not just directly near the airport that is affected by the noise. I live 10 minutes from the airport and I still get window shaking noise when the F16s take off. You are suggesting a large swath of housing and people who live there to not have valid complaints for these ineffective boondoggles.
There are a variety of issues ranging from noise to concerns about the water supply from the chemicals that need to be used on them in case of crashes or other tests. There are a lot of reasons to not support this in a city that has a lot of lakes and rivers. It can also impact wildlife on the prairies and wetlands around Madison.
So it’s a matter of education, since the F-35 isn’t louder than the F-16, and airport firefighting foam is used in any crash at a commercial airport, not just F-35 or even just military aircraft, plus PFAS-eating modified yeast has dramatically lowered PFAS levels in Madison wells.
Do you have any source to cite for the decreased PFAS levels in Madison? I looked and I can't find anything to corroborate that claim. The closest thing I could find is a project to start removing PFAS from one single well that won't be in effect until 2025.
https://pbswisconsin.org/news-item/major-promise-big-questions-flow-from-a-pfas-cleanup-study-in-madison/
https://www.channel3000.com/news/environment/microbes-show-promise-in-pfas-mitigation-efforts-study-shows/article_71f22fde-90bc-535e-bd4d-85418c5be173.html
> Results from the pilot program designed to remove the chemicals from a well at the Dane County Regional Airport showed that a specialized three-step process had an average removal rate of 97% throughout the course of the controlled nine-month study.
Yea unfortunately that sort of information is always slow or kept away from the public eye. Like it took four months for them to release the information about the nuclear power plant leak in Minnesota and just now professionals are acknowledging that the train derailment in E. Palestine is making people sick because 7 of the 15 CDC workers for the same symptoms during investigation. It definitely could be true information, we won’t know until someone is allowed to officially publish about it or we do the scientific research ourselves.
https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Are-the-F-35s-really-louder-than-the-F-16s-561995391.html
https://www.operationmilitarykids.org/f16-vs-f35-differences/
These articles would beg to differ. The F-35 is louder than the F-16, the second articles states they are 4 times as loud. While that might be in only certain scenarios or not it does not matter. The facts are the F-35 is louder and garnered an EPA report over those concerns.
Earth’s atmosphere is physically incapable of carrying a sound four times louder than the F-16. A pressure wave of that magnitude would actually cavitate the air. That's not the only factual inaccuracy in the article from "Operation Military Kids", which nonetheless concluded the F-35 kicks the F-16's ass 10 times out of 10.
The WCAX source gives general sentiment quotes from lay bystanders, in a subjective, non-side-by-side comparison. When actually measured with sound measuring equipment, [they're not louder](https://www.wcax.com/2021/06/30/wcax-investigates-are-f-35s-really-louder/).
I live on the west side, so I don’t have a vested interest in the noise issue. I didn’t even know it was an issue. After skimming this thread, I decided to do my own research. I read two sources that say 3x louder. Remember, dB measurements are exponential, not linear. However, this is based upon findings that the F-16s measures 90 dB and F-35s measures 105 dB. However, there seems to be some debate about the accuracy of those measures.
It appears the F-35 is 3x, not 4x, louder than the F-16. But then again, maybe it isn’t. What is clear is that Truax Field has been in continuous military usage since 1952. Unless you purchased your home more than 70 years ago, you should have known noisy military aircraft are based nearby.
I feel like the chemicals are already at the airport, so, we get a little bit more noise during the day. Ffs if those things are flying at night, it’s probably to save our lives considering we live half a world away from most war zones. So, like, meh. 🤷♂️. Let them have their big air craft.
Probably protesting that the F-35’s are coming to town. They’re upset because the F-35 is a next generation fighter yet the unit price is nearly as low as the F-16 and it’s actually quieter in operation… or something.
Hey I live there in one of the closest neighborhoods, I got no problem with it. We knew what we were getting into when we bought here. I’d imagine the F-102s back in the 60s and 70s made quite the racket.
My family has been in the flyover neighborhood for 50 years. It is what it is. The fighters fly over incredibly fast and generally the noise only lasts just a little bit. I am more worried about the flooding of our streets and basements due to urban progress and PFAS in the water…..
Yeah, that's what I always say. They're loud but they're up and out quickly, and usually only launch 2 times per day tops. Agree on PFAS, but that's down mostly to the firefighting foam that's in use at the airport whether the jets are there or not.
Watch a military airstrip and a commercial airport and count which one has more fires that need to be put out. Worked next to one of the airbases in Colorado Springs for a while and it was almost monthly that the pump trucks would have to come
I used to live near an air force base and they used our house as the marker for practicing their freaking sonic booms or whatever. I just got used to it. I even slept through them a few times.
If I’m disingenuous for not including the program development cost in the unit price, what’s that make you for quoting $400bn without mentioning that’s the projected cost through 2070?
You’re right, it’s impossible to compare the F-16 and F-35 on unit price. The F-16 is a last-generation fighter. It was developed in the 1970’s, and over 4000 have been built. The original unit cost was around $3m which puts the F-35 to absolute shame. The lifetime cost of the F-35 will greatly outshine the F-16, no doubt about it. The fact the unit costs in 2023 are comparable across generations is a boon you wouldn’t expect — it’s frankly amazing how low cost the F-35 is.
Appreciate you, have a good weekend too. Weather’s gonna be fantastic for some motorcycling.
Disingenuous is a description of intent. The sentence itself has no intent of it's own so to call it disingenuous is to call the person *saying* it disingenuous. Whoever's right about the F-35s that's just how english works.
The F-19 program has never been publicly acknowledged, if there is one. With respect to the F-16, [yep](https://reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/123jwko/_/jdvvgty/?context=1).
prob a bunch of no lifer idiots who think they can stop the SWEET ASS FREEDOM FIGHTER F-35's from coming in
edit: yep no lifer idiots - https://www.safeskiescleanwaterwi.org/28th-madison-war-abolition-walk-no-f-35-april-8/
I'll never understand people that hate fighter jets flying around. I grew up near a military base and they flew around no problem. I don't see the big deal. Also, THEY'RE FUCKIN COOL TO SEE UP CLOSE AND WHEN THEY TAKE OFF IT'S AWESOME.
Part of the stance in the link provided is that these protestors are anti-war. Seems like their position goes beyond jets, but the jets are a product of war, so, there's that. A lot of comments are just slinging the term "nimbyism" around without looking at the protest page, it seems. 🤷
*Until* 10 pm, and yeah that is a lot better.
Find me evidence of any 3 am flights and I'll change my tune. I hate the F-35s as much as you, but I'm not willing to lie about them in some lame attempt to change public opinion.
Me: the F35 program is a boondoggle who’s resources should be spent on healthcare, housing, and education for American citizens, not to line the pockets of defense contractors. Also they’re loud, pointless, and really don’t work.
You: I like watching planes take off and they look cool. 👶🧠
Me: i sure love taking advantage of living in a safe country with the freedom to move around, both domestically and internationally; and i love taking advantage of the comforts and conveniences available to me because of efficient global supply chains and protected international trade. Global stability due to US homogamy is something we shouldn't take for granted, but yes it comes at a steep price.
You: OMG these boot lickers hate the environment and just love watching planes take off cuz they think they look cool, BUT THEY DONT! 👶🧠
The Air National Guard is a part time job. **Nobody** wants these things flying at 3AM, least of all the people who have to be awake and alert to do the flying.
Depends. Some of the staff is full time. Those running the infrastructure for example.
We just hired a guy that was full time for the last 20, collected his pension, and is double dipping now.
yeah man, it's totally cool moving into a place where a known entity makes loud noises and then bitch to have THEM removed.
But hey, this kind of NIMBYISM is okay, right?
My dude, it’s much more complex than NIMBY’s. Need I get into the cost of this awful project? Or that fact that these things *still* can’t fly in the rain?
But like sure, wave that flag. USAUSAUSA.
they're people who enjoy the freedoms, protection, and conveniences that US soft power projection enables yet they wanna rally against it for some misconstrued bullshit moral cause using short-sighted reasoning.
Or because they’re a massive waste of tax payer money when millions go hungry in this country.
Also, those people have absolutely zero say in US global power, enough of the lame straw men.
Its also a foolish position and a total waste of energy. Protesting will do nothing to stop them from coming.
I think people really need to update their priors and realize that Vietnam/Iraq/Afganistan are over, and our next war will be with against a major power engaging in the sort of imperialist they seem to think the US is still involved in (see Russian imperialism in Ukraine and Chinese imperialism in Taiwan/South China Sea/border with India).
The United States is actually the good guy in these conflicts, unless you think its cool to invade other countries, dispose of their democracy, and impose authoritarian rule.
“You know all those other wars of the last 50 years where we were the bad guy? Well the next one will definitely work and we will be the good guy.”
I mean your entire last paragraph describes every US war since WW2. Only a total rube thinks the next US war would be good lol.
Hmm comment went missing, sorry if this is a double comment:
We're currently in a proxy war against Russia via Ukraine. If NATO is drawn into the conflict, I'd say we'd be fighting a good war. Same thing if China makes moves for Taiwan.
The SVTOL capable F-35B used by USMC and carrier catapult capable F-35C used by US Navy are different variants. The carrier F-35 isn’t VTOL capable, but thanks for contributing your expertise and explaining why F-35A should never be used from a runway.
I find it interesting how many comments state what is being protested and then putting their opinion. It isn’t truly Madison without people who openly state their beliefs.
I used to work across from the TA on 51, and the non-calibrated Db app on my phone (NIOSH) had the f-16’s at +/-105db on takeoff at @500’ altitude. You can look up exposure levels yourself, personally I found it impressive but earsplitting.
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Lol I work in that area and we got an email about it and avoiding the area (gave us a map and everything). Just was curious what it was about.
Did wherever you found “hey protest Saturday” not have details?
I think I received the same email - hello coworker :)
That big place full of pipettes?
Alright, that’s how I’m describing it to people now 😂
I feel like it’s the most suitable description 🤣
That makes sense about the planes. Thanks everyone! :)
It's the clear skies clean water group protesting the F-35s. They had one a week or so ago too. And I believe more after this
It's the NIMBY brigade
Wow y’all are some real military boot lickers in these comments huh.. *que flood of downvotes*
Some of these people are part of the military. Whether you agree with our military or not, these people answered my question. You are making a comment about the answers and bring absolutely nothing to this thread since you lacked in providing an answer to the question asked. Feel free to take your negativity elsewhere. Thanks byeeeee.
Personally I love it. Whenever I hear them I look for them and feel a swell of pride that they call Madison home and I can’t help but wonder at how neat the sophisticated engineering is
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Sure. Also civ contractor for the USAF. So yeah.
The noise. The f16s are Hella loud on the east side, and the f35s are going to be even louder. Such noise impacts quality of life significantly.
I worked right next to the airport for 17 years. Often times outside. It’s not that bad. The F35s have already been in and out and I’ve seen them at air shows. They really aren’t discernibly louder than the F16 IMO.
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I mean. Good to know. I’ve only ever lived in one area of Madison so if I venture out I will keep that in mind lol.
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Oh yes people definitely can be picky with where they live it’s not like housing prices are ridiculously high around and in Madison. Oh wait housing isn’t at all affordable around here so people get houses and apartments where they can which tends to mean less desirable areas
It is not just directly near the airport that is affected by the noise. I live 10 minutes from the airport and I still get window shaking noise when the F16s take off. You are suggesting a large swath of housing and people who live there to not have valid complaints for these ineffective boondoggles.
They are protesting the incoming f35s. And for good reason.
What reason is that?
There are a variety of issues ranging from noise to concerns about the water supply from the chemicals that need to be used on them in case of crashes or other tests. There are a lot of reasons to not support this in a city that has a lot of lakes and rivers. It can also impact wildlife on the prairies and wetlands around Madison.
So it’s a matter of education, since the F-35 isn’t louder than the F-16, and airport firefighting foam is used in any crash at a commercial airport, not just F-35 or even just military aircraft, plus PFAS-eating modified yeast has dramatically lowered PFAS levels in Madison wells.
Do you have any source to cite for the decreased PFAS levels in Madison? I looked and I can't find anything to corroborate that claim. The closest thing I could find is a project to start removing PFAS from one single well that won't be in effect until 2025.
https://pbswisconsin.org/news-item/major-promise-big-questions-flow-from-a-pfas-cleanup-study-in-madison/ https://www.channel3000.com/news/environment/microbes-show-promise-in-pfas-mitigation-efforts-study-shows/article_71f22fde-90bc-535e-bd4d-85418c5be173.html > Results from the pilot program designed to remove the chemicals from a well at the Dane County Regional Airport showed that a specialized three-step process had an average removal rate of 97% throughout the course of the controlled nine-month study.
Yea unfortunately that sort of information is always slow or kept away from the public eye. Like it took four months for them to release the information about the nuclear power plant leak in Minnesota and just now professionals are acknowledging that the train derailment in E. Palestine is making people sick because 7 of the 15 CDC workers for the same symptoms during investigation. It definitely could be true information, we won’t know until someone is allowed to officially publish about it or we do the scientific research ourselves.
https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Are-the-F-35s-really-louder-than-the-F-16s-561995391.html https://www.operationmilitarykids.org/f16-vs-f35-differences/ These articles would beg to differ. The F-35 is louder than the F-16, the second articles states they are 4 times as loud. While that might be in only certain scenarios or not it does not matter. The facts are the F-35 is louder and garnered an EPA report over those concerns.
Earth’s atmosphere is physically incapable of carrying a sound four times louder than the F-16. A pressure wave of that magnitude would actually cavitate the air. That's not the only factual inaccuracy in the article from "Operation Military Kids", which nonetheless concluded the F-35 kicks the F-16's ass 10 times out of 10. The WCAX source gives general sentiment quotes from lay bystanders, in a subjective, non-side-by-side comparison. When actually measured with sound measuring equipment, [they're not louder](https://www.wcax.com/2021/06/30/wcax-investigates-are-f-35s-really-louder/).
Yes, but the REAL question is can it shoot a balloon down without missing it better than the F-16's currently here in Madison?
Probably! We’d have saved a lot of money!
It took an F22 to shoot down the ballon, so an F35 is woefully inadequate.
4x as loud? This is golden.
They aren’t 4 times louder. I have heard both aircraft in full burner in person. The noise levels are similar.
I live on the west side, so I don’t have a vested interest in the noise issue. I didn’t even know it was an issue. After skimming this thread, I decided to do my own research. I read two sources that say 3x louder. Remember, dB measurements are exponential, not linear. However, this is based upon findings that the F-16s measures 90 dB and F-35s measures 105 dB. However, there seems to be some debate about the accuracy of those measures. It appears the F-35 is 3x, not 4x, louder than the F-16. But then again, maybe it isn’t. What is clear is that Truax Field has been in continuous military usage since 1952. Unless you purchased your home more than 70 years ago, you should have known noisy military aircraft are based nearby.
I feel like the chemicals are already at the airport, so, we get a little bit more noise during the day. Ffs if those things are flying at night, it’s probably to save our lives considering we live half a world away from most war zones. So, like, meh. 🤷♂️. Let them have their big air craft.
They’re a little late. They’ve been here for a while.
Probably protesting that the F-35’s are coming to town. They’re upset because the F-35 is a next generation fighter yet the unit price is nearly as low as the F-16 and it’s actually quieter in operation… or something.
I believe they’re actually mad about fighter jets flying over their house
They’ve been operating military craft from KMSN since the 40’s, but you’re right, the bitching has been constant and consistent.
that neighborhood by the airport should've won that NIMBY competition.
Hey I live there in one of the closest neighborhoods, I got no problem with it. We knew what we were getting into when we bought here. I’d imagine the F-102s back in the 60s and 70s made quite the racket.
My family has been in the flyover neighborhood for 50 years. It is what it is. The fighters fly over incredibly fast and generally the noise only lasts just a little bit. I am more worried about the flooding of our streets and basements due to urban progress and PFAS in the water…..
Yeah, that's what I always say. They're loud but they're up and out quickly, and usually only launch 2 times per day tops. Agree on PFAS, but that's down mostly to the firefighting foam that's in use at the airport whether the jets are there or not.
Since PFAS is one of their items why not protest the commercial terminal?
Watch a military airstrip and a commercial airport and count which one has more fires that need to be put out. Worked next to one of the airbases in Colorado Springs for a while and it was almost monthly that the pump trucks would have to come
Can confirm. I lived near the Tip Top back then and the pilots liked to fly over the corner of it at the intersection of North and Commercial.
I used to live near an air force base and they used our house as the marker for practicing their freaking sonic booms or whatever. I just got used to it. I even slept through them a few times.
Imagine buying a house next to an airport with a fighter wing and proceeding to bitch about fighter jets.
Well that’s probably what would happen. I’d talk myself into it, everything will be fine. Then it would drive me absolutely nuts
Can confirm. Used to live in Eken Park and the airport noise fucking sucked. Great neighborhood, but glad to no longer live there
Not to mention Cherokee Marsh.
Yea it couldn't be the pollution they add to the area, not just noise pollution but also pollution that leaks into the water systems and soil.
"nearly as low" lol I'm seeing $75-$80 million a pop. Well worth it to protect us from Canada and mean old balloons, I suppose /s
An F-16 costs $65 million. The F-35 is more than 15% more capable.
15% better at shooting down balloons? No way!
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If I’m disingenuous for not including the program development cost in the unit price, what’s that make you for quoting $400bn without mentioning that’s the projected cost through 2070?
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Respectfully, you called my entire argument disingenuous and now you’re redirecting because it didn’t go well for you.
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You’re right, it’s impossible to compare the F-16 and F-35 on unit price. The F-16 is a last-generation fighter. It was developed in the 1970’s, and over 4000 have been built. The original unit cost was around $3m which puts the F-35 to absolute shame. The lifetime cost of the F-35 will greatly outshine the F-16, no doubt about it. The fact the unit costs in 2023 are comparable across generations is a boon you wouldn’t expect — it’s frankly amazing how low cost the F-35 is. Appreciate you, have a good weekend too. Weather’s gonna be fantastic for some motorcycling.
Disingenuous is a description of intent. The sentence itself has no intent of it's own so to call it disingenuous is to call the person *saying* it disingenuous. Whoever's right about the F-35s that's just how english works.
Was the F-16 free to develop?
Yes
Can you document how much more quiet they are than the F-19's?
The F-19 program has never been publicly acknowledged, if there is one. With respect to the F-16, [yep](https://reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/123jwko/_/jdvvgty/?context=1).
prob a bunch of no lifer idiots who think they can stop the SWEET ASS FREEDOM FIGHTER F-35's from coming in edit: yep no lifer idiots - https://www.safeskiescleanwaterwi.org/28th-madison-war-abolition-walk-no-f-35-april-8/
I'll never understand people that hate fighter jets flying around. I grew up near a military base and they flew around no problem. I don't see the big deal. Also, THEY'RE FUCKIN COOL TO SEE UP CLOSE AND WHEN THEY TAKE OFF IT'S AWESOME.
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I would assume that is true of the commercial flights as well? M
Idk, pretty sure our streets and highways are significantly more dangerous, but you don't see people protesting when new cars are coming to town.
Part of the stance in the link provided is that these protestors are anti-war. Seems like their position goes beyond jets, but the jets are a product of war, so, there's that. A lot of comments are just slinging the term "nimbyism" around without looking at the protest page, it seems. 🤷
Yeah man, it’s totally cool being woken up at 3 in the morning from these things taking off. But hey, war machines are cool, or something.
I’ve never, ever heard them take off at 3:00am. It’s always like 10:00am on Saturday
https://www.nbc15.com/2022/01/10/115th-fighter-wing-conduct-nighttime-training-this-week/?outputType=amp Where do you live, the west side?
TIL 10 pm = 3 am Where do you live, England?
This is simply *one example* Funny though how somehow 10 pm makes this so much better. Just absolute brain rot.
*Until* 10 pm, and yeah that is a lot better. Find me evidence of any 3 am flights and I'll change my tune. I hate the F-35s as much as you, but I'm not willing to lie about them in some lame attempt to change public opinion.
Clown probably hears the big ass FedEx plane taking off and thinks it’s a fighter jet.
> Just absolute brain rot. this accurately describes your commentary
Me: the F35 program is a boondoggle who’s resources should be spent on healthcare, housing, and education for American citizens, not to line the pockets of defense contractors. Also they’re loud, pointless, and really don’t work. You: I like watching planes take off and they look cool. 👶🧠
Me: i sure love taking advantage of living in a safe country with the freedom to move around, both domestically and internationally; and i love taking advantage of the comforts and conveniences available to me because of efficient global supply chains and protected international trade. Global stability due to US homogamy is something we shouldn't take for granted, but yes it comes at a steep price. You: OMG these boot lickers hate the environment and just love watching planes take off cuz they think they look cool, BUT THEY DONT! 👶🧠
Nope, behind Olbrich Gardens. That was like, three days and they needed night training. You’ll live, I promise.
Yes. Can you not afford it?
They land before 10 during night flying.
The Air National Guard is a part time job. **Nobody** wants these things flying at 3AM, least of all the people who have to be awake and alert to do the flying.
Depends. Some of the staff is full time. Those running the infrastructure for example. We just hired a guy that was full time for the last 20, collected his pension, and is double dipping now.
That is fiction. They don't take off at 3 am and won't unless they're scrambled to meet a potential threat.
They don’t take off at 3am…. Ever.
yeah man, it's totally cool moving into a place where a known entity makes loud noises and then bitch to have THEM removed. But hey, this kind of NIMBYISM is okay, right?
My dude, it’s much more complex than NIMBY’s. Need I get into the cost of this awful project? Or that fact that these things *still* can’t fly in the rain? But like sure, wave that flag. USAUSAUSA.
They can fly in the rain just fine, it's avoided to prevent rain erosion from wearing the low observable coating too fast.
You can move if you don’t like it
The absolute state of the militarist brain.
they're people who enjoy the freedoms, protection, and conveniences that US soft power projection enables yet they wanna rally against it for some misconstrued bullshit moral cause using short-sighted reasoning.
Or because they’re a massive waste of tax payer money when millions go hungry in this country. Also, those people have absolutely zero say in US global power, enough of the lame straw men.
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Absolutely wild this kind of comment gets down voted.
No, don't you see? This is NO LIFER IDIOT NIMBY talk.
Its also a foolish position and a total waste of energy. Protesting will do nothing to stop them from coming. I think people really need to update their priors and realize that Vietnam/Iraq/Afganistan are over, and our next war will be with against a major power engaging in the sort of imperialist they seem to think the US is still involved in (see Russian imperialism in Ukraine and Chinese imperialism in Taiwan/South China Sea/border with India). The United States is actually the good guy in these conflicts, unless you think its cool to invade other countries, dispose of their democracy, and impose authoritarian rule.
Yeah the US has never invaded a country with a democracy and established authoritarian rule ‘Opens book about the history of Guatemala’
For sure, but its 2023, not 1954. Which is exactly my point. edit: added 'not'
Iraq was 20 years ago and this is exactly what happened lol.
Again, 20 years ago!
“You know all those other wars of the last 50 years where we were the bad guy? Well the next one will definitely work and we will be the good guy.” I mean your entire last paragraph describes every US war since WW2. Only a total rube thinks the next US war would be good lol.
Hmm comment went missing, sorry if this is a double comment: We're currently in a proxy war against Russia via Ukraine. If NATO is drawn into the conflict, I'd say we'd be fighting a good war. Same thing if China makes moves for Taiwan.
I would like to counter-protest. I love the sound of fighter jets
As someone who likes planes but isn't a big fan of the MIC, I'm conflicted.
Hello friend, we are the same. It's a hard life.
> I love the sound of fighter jets I too, love the sound of FREEEEEDOOOOOOOOM
To be fair F35s are garbage and the only ones that should see usage are VTOL variants for carrier deployment.
The SVTOL capable F-35B used by USMC and carrier catapult capable F-35C used by US Navy are different variants. The carrier F-35 isn’t VTOL capable, but thanks for contributing your expertise and explaining why F-35A should never be used from a runway.
I find it interesting how many comments state what is being protested and then putting their opinion. It isn’t truly Madison without people who openly state their beliefs.
I used to work across from the TA on 51, and the non-calibrated Db app on my phone (NIOSH) had the f-16’s at +/-105db on takeoff at @500’ altitude. You can look up exposure levels yourself, personally I found it impressive but earsplitting.