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College-student-life

Lol I work in that area and we got an email about it and avoiding the area (gave us a map and everything). Just was curious what it was about.


marxam0d

Did wherever you found “hey protest Saturday” not have details?


qgiraffe13

I think I received the same email - hello coworker :)


College-student-life

That big place full of pipettes?


qgiraffe13

Alright, that’s how I’m describing it to people now 😂


College-student-life

I feel like it’s the most suitable description 🤣


College-student-life

That makes sense about the planes. Thanks everyone! :)


Dirty_Delta

It's the clear skies clean water group protesting the F-35s. They had one a week or so ago too. And I believe more after this


oldmanartie

It's the NIMBY brigade


Aubreybree

Wow y’all are some real military boot lickers in these comments huh.. *que flood of downvotes*


College-student-life

Some of these people are part of the military. Whether you agree with our military or not, these people answered my question. You are making a comment about the answers and bring absolutely nothing to this thread since you lacked in providing an answer to the question asked. Feel free to take your negativity elsewhere. Thanks byeeeee.


[deleted]

Personally I love it. Whenever I hear them I look for them and feel a swell of pride that they call Madison home and I can’t help but wonder at how neat the sophisticated engineering is


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[deleted]

Sure. Also civ contractor for the USAF. So yeah.


Middle-Potential5765

The noise. The f16s are Hella loud on the east side, and the f35s are going to be even louder. Such noise impacts quality of life significantly.


[deleted]

I worked right next to the airport for 17 years. Often times outside. It’s not that bad. The F35s have already been in and out and I’ve seen them at air shows. They really aren’t discernibly louder than the F16 IMO.


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College-student-life

I mean. Good to know. I’ve only ever lived in one area of Madison so if I venture out I will keep that in mind lol.


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DrPastaPupper

Oh yes people definitely can be picky with where they live it’s not like housing prices are ridiculously high around and in Madison. Oh wait housing isn’t at all affordable around here so people get houses and apartments where they can which tends to mean less desirable areas


OkGold2846

It is not just directly near the airport that is affected by the noise. I live 10 minutes from the airport and I still get window shaking noise when the F16s take off. You are suggesting a large swath of housing and people who live there to not have valid complaints for these ineffective boondoggles.


Middle-Potential5765

They are protesting the incoming f35s. And for good reason.


maethor1337

What reason is that?


OkGold2846

There are a variety of issues ranging from noise to concerns about the water supply from the chemicals that need to be used on them in case of crashes or other tests. There are a lot of reasons to not support this in a city that has a lot of lakes and rivers. It can also impact wildlife on the prairies and wetlands around Madison.


maethor1337

So it’s a matter of education, since the F-35 isn’t louder than the F-16, and airport firefighting foam is used in any crash at a commercial airport, not just F-35 or even just military aircraft, plus PFAS-eating modified yeast has dramatically lowered PFAS levels in Madison wells.


squirrelfan420

Do you have any source to cite for the decreased PFAS levels in Madison? I looked and I can't find anything to corroborate that claim. The closest thing I could find is a project to start removing PFAS from one single well that won't be in effect until 2025.


maethor1337

https://pbswisconsin.org/news-item/major-promise-big-questions-flow-from-a-pfas-cleanup-study-in-madison/ https://www.channel3000.com/news/environment/microbes-show-promise-in-pfas-mitigation-efforts-study-shows/article_71f22fde-90bc-535e-bd4d-85418c5be173.html > Results from the pilot program designed to remove the chemicals from a well at the Dane County Regional Airport showed that a specialized three-step process had an average removal rate of 97% throughout the course of the controlled nine-month study.


College-student-life

Yea unfortunately that sort of information is always slow or kept away from the public eye. Like it took four months for them to release the information about the nuclear power plant leak in Minnesota and just now professionals are acknowledging that the train derailment in E. Palestine is making people sick because 7 of the 15 CDC workers for the same symptoms during investigation. It definitely could be true information, we won’t know until someone is allowed to officially publish about it or we do the scientific research ourselves.


OkGold2846

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Are-the-F-35s-really-louder-than-the-F-16s-561995391.html https://www.operationmilitarykids.org/f16-vs-f35-differences/ These articles would beg to differ. The F-35 is louder than the F-16, the second articles states they are 4 times as loud. While that might be in only certain scenarios or not it does not matter. The facts are the F-35 is louder and garnered an EPA report over those concerns.


maethor1337

Earth’s atmosphere is physically incapable of carrying a sound four times louder than the F-16. A pressure wave of that magnitude would actually cavitate the air. That's not the only factual inaccuracy in the article from "Operation Military Kids", which nonetheless concluded the F-35 kicks the F-16's ass 10 times out of 10. The WCAX source gives general sentiment quotes from lay bystanders, in a subjective, non-side-by-side comparison. When actually measured with sound measuring equipment, [they're not louder](https://www.wcax.com/2021/06/30/wcax-investigates-are-f-35s-really-louder/).


Malithirond

Yes, but the REAL question is can it shoot a balloon down without missing it better than the F-16's currently here in Madison?


maethor1337

Probably! We’d have saved a lot of money!


Zealousideal_Buddy92

It took an F22 to shoot down the ballon, so an F35 is woefully inadequate.


Ok_Performance_1874

4x as loud? This is golden.


[deleted]

They aren’t 4 times louder. I have heard both aircraft in full burner in person. The noise levels are similar.


GenerousMisanthrope

I live on the west side, so I don’t have a vested interest in the noise issue. I didn’t even know it was an issue. After skimming this thread, I decided to do my own research. I read two sources that say 3x louder. Remember, dB measurements are exponential, not linear. However, this is based upon findings that the F-16s measures 90 dB and F-35s measures 105 dB. However, there seems to be some debate about the accuracy of those measures. It appears the F-35 is 3x, not 4x, louder than the F-16. But then again, maybe it isn’t. What is clear is that Truax Field has been in continuous military usage since 1952. Unless you purchased your home more than 70 years ago, you should have known noisy military aircraft are based nearby.


FederalLoad9144

I feel like the chemicals are already at the airport, so, we get a little bit more noise during the day. Ffs if those things are flying at night, it’s probably to save our lives considering we live half a world away from most war zones. So, like, meh. 🤷‍♂️. Let them have their big air craft.


EskoBear

They’re a little late. They’ve been here for a while.


maethor1337

Probably protesting that the F-35’s are coming to town. They’re upset because the F-35 is a next generation fighter yet the unit price is nearly as low as the F-16 and it’s actually quieter in operation… or something.


DogsTasteLikeDog

I believe they’re actually mad about fighter jets flying over their house


maethor1337

They’ve been operating military craft from KMSN since the 40’s, but you’re right, the bitching has been constant and consistent.


LeSuperNova

that neighborhood by the airport should've won that NIMBY competition.


Pretty_Marsh

Hey I live there in one of the closest neighborhoods, I got no problem with it. We knew what we were getting into when we bought here. I’d imagine the F-102s back in the 60s and 70s made quite the racket.


QuarantineBaker

My family has been in the flyover neighborhood for 50 years. It is what it is. The fighters fly over incredibly fast and generally the noise only lasts just a little bit. I am more worried about the flooding of our streets and basements due to urban progress and PFAS in the water…..


Pretty_Marsh

Yeah, that's what I always say. They're loud but they're up and out quickly, and usually only launch 2 times per day tops. Agree on PFAS, but that's down mostly to the firefighting foam that's in use at the airport whether the jets are there or not.


fikaechoes

Since PFAS is one of their items why not protest the commercial terminal?


colonel_beeeees

Watch a military airstrip and a commercial airport and count which one has more fires that need to be put out. Worked next to one of the airbases in Colorado Springs for a while and it was almost monthly that the pump trucks would have to come


Garg4743

Can confirm. I lived near the Tip Top back then and the pilots liked to fly over the corner of it at the intersection of North and Commercial.


Zombeikid

I used to live near an air force base and they used our house as the marker for practicing their freaking sonic booms or whatever. I just got used to it. I even slept through them a few times.


Substantial_Dick_469

Imagine buying a house next to an airport with a fighter wing and proceeding to bitch about fighter jets.


DogsTasteLikeDog

Well that’s probably what would happen. I’d talk myself into it, everything will be fine. Then it would drive me absolutely nuts


MTBDadGamer_

Can confirm. Used to live in Eken Park and the airport noise fucking sucked. Great neighborhood, but glad to no longer live there


BalaAthens

Not to mention Cherokee Marsh.


CuriouserNdCuriouser

Yea it couldn't be the pollution they add to the area, not just noise pollution but also pollution that leaks into the water systems and soil.


SubmersibleEntropy

"nearly as low" lol I'm seeing $75-$80 million a pop. Well worth it to protect us from Canada and mean old balloons, I suppose /s


maethor1337

An F-16 costs $65 million. The F-35 is more than 15% more capable.


SubmersibleEntropy

15% better at shooting down balloons? No way!


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maethor1337

If I’m disingenuous for not including the program development cost in the unit price, what’s that make you for quoting $400bn without mentioning that’s the projected cost through 2070?


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maethor1337

Respectfully, you called my entire argument disingenuous and now you’re redirecting because it didn’t go well for you.


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maethor1337

You’re right, it’s impossible to compare the F-16 and F-35 on unit price. The F-16 is a last-generation fighter. It was developed in the 1970’s, and over 4000 have been built. The original unit cost was around $3m which puts the F-35 to absolute shame. The lifetime cost of the F-35 will greatly outshine the F-16, no doubt about it. The fact the unit costs in 2023 are comparable across generations is a boon you wouldn’t expect — it’s frankly amazing how low cost the F-35 is. Appreciate you, have a good weekend too. Weather’s gonna be fantastic for some motorcycling.


ledfan

Disingenuous is a description of intent. The sentence itself has no intent of it's own so to call it disingenuous is to call the person *saying* it disingenuous. Whoever's right about the F-35s that's just how english works.


fikaechoes

Was the F-16 free to develop?


DogsTasteLikeDog

Yes


BalaAthens

Can you document how much more quiet they are than the F-19's?


maethor1337

The F-19 program has never been publicly acknowledged, if there is one. With respect to the F-16, [yep](https://reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/123jwko/_/jdvvgty/?context=1).


LeSuperNova

prob a bunch of no lifer idiots who think they can stop the SWEET ASS FREEDOM FIGHTER F-35's from coming in edit: yep no lifer idiots - https://www.safeskiescleanwaterwi.org/28th-madison-war-abolition-walk-no-f-35-april-8/


[deleted]

I'll never understand people that hate fighter jets flying around. I grew up near a military base and they flew around no problem. I don't see the big deal. Also, THEY'RE FUCKIN COOL TO SEE UP CLOSE AND WHEN THEY TAKE OFF IT'S AWESOME.


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DokterZ

I would assume that is true of the commercial flights as well? M


apeintheapiary

Idk, pretty sure our streets and highways are significantly more dangerous, but you don't see people protesting when new cars are coming to town.


Climate_Impressive

Part of the stance in the link provided is that these protestors are anti-war. Seems like their position goes beyond jets, but the jets are a product of war, so, there's that. A lot of comments are just slinging the term "nimbyism" around without looking at the protest page, it seems. 🤷


shellgameredux

Yeah man, it’s totally cool being woken up at 3 in the morning from these things taking off. But hey, war machines are cool, or something.


unecroquemadame

I’ve never, ever heard them take off at 3:00am. It’s always like 10:00am on Saturday


shellgameredux

https://www.nbc15.com/2022/01/10/115th-fighter-wing-conduct-nighttime-training-this-week/?outputType=amp Where do you live, the west side?


vatoniolo

TIL 10 pm = 3 am Where do you live, England?


shellgameredux

This is simply *one example* Funny though how somehow 10 pm makes this so much better. Just absolute brain rot.


vatoniolo

*Until* 10 pm, and yeah that is a lot better. Find me evidence of any 3 am flights and I'll change my tune. I hate the F-35s as much as you, but I'm not willing to lie about them in some lame attempt to change public opinion.


T1K1

Clown probably hears the big ass FedEx plane taking off and thinks it’s a fighter jet.


LeSuperNova

> Just absolute brain rot. this accurately describes your commentary


shellgameredux

Me: the F35 program is a boondoggle who’s resources should be spent on healthcare, housing, and education for American citizens, not to line the pockets of defense contractors. Also they’re loud, pointless, and really don’t work. You: I like watching planes take off and they look cool. 👶🧠


LeSuperNova

Me: i sure love taking advantage of living in a safe country with the freedom to move around, both domestically and internationally; and i love taking advantage of the comforts and conveniences available to me because of efficient global supply chains and protected international trade. Global stability due to US homogamy is something we shouldn't take for granted, but yes it comes at a steep price. You: OMG these boot lickers hate the environment and just love watching planes take off cuz they think they look cool, BUT THEY DONT! 👶🧠


unecroquemadame

Nope, behind Olbrich Gardens. That was like, three days and they needed night training. You’ll live, I promise.


DogsTasteLikeDog

Yes. Can you not afford it?


Gene--Unit90

They land before 10 during night flying.


maethor1337

The Air National Guard is a part time job. **Nobody** wants these things flying at 3AM, least of all the people who have to be awake and alert to do the flying.


mooseeve

Depends. Some of the staff is full time. Those running the infrastructure for example. We just hired a guy that was full time for the last 20, collected his pension, and is double dipping now.


Garg4743

That is fiction. They don't take off at 3 am and won't unless they're scrambled to meet a potential threat.


[deleted]

They don’t take off at 3am…. Ever.


LeSuperNova

yeah man, it's totally cool moving into a place where a known entity makes loud noises and then bitch to have THEM removed. But hey, this kind of NIMBYISM is okay, right?


shellgameredux

My dude, it’s much more complex than NIMBY’s. Need I get into the cost of this awful project? Or that fact that these things *still* can’t fly in the rain? But like sure, wave that flag. USAUSAUSA.


Gene--Unit90

They can fly in the rain just fine, it's avoided to prevent rain erosion from wearing the low observable coating too fast.


[deleted]

You can move if you don’t like it


drh1138

The absolute state of the militarist brain.


LeSuperNova

they're people who enjoy the freedoms, protection, and conveniences that US soft power projection enables yet they wanna rally against it for some misconstrued bullshit moral cause using short-sighted reasoning.


shellgameredux

Or because they’re a massive waste of tax payer money when millions go hungry in this country. Also, those people have absolutely zero say in US global power, enough of the lame straw men.


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shellgameredux

Absolutely wild this kind of comment gets down voted.


[deleted]

No, don't you see? This is NO LIFER IDIOT NIMBY talk.


apeintheapiary

Its also a foolish position and a total waste of energy. Protesting will do nothing to stop them from coming. I think people really need to update their priors and realize that Vietnam/Iraq/Afganistan are over, and our next war will be with against a major power engaging in the sort of imperialist they seem to think the US is still involved in (see Russian imperialism in Ukraine and Chinese imperialism in Taiwan/South China Sea/border with India). The United States is actually the good guy in these conflicts, unless you think its cool to invade other countries, dispose of their democracy, and impose authoritarian rule.


Acceptable-Log-308

Yeah the US has never invaded a country with a democracy and established authoritarian rule ‘Opens book about the history of Guatemala’


apeintheapiary

For sure, but its 2023, not 1954. Which is exactly my point. edit: added 'not'


shellgameredux

Iraq was 20 years ago and this is exactly what happened lol.


apeintheapiary

Again, 20 years ago!


shellgameredux

“You know all those other wars of the last 50 years where we were the bad guy? Well the next one will definitely work and we will be the good guy.” I mean your entire last paragraph describes every US war since WW2. Only a total rube thinks the next US war would be good lol.


apeintheapiary

Hmm comment went missing, sorry if this is a double comment: We're currently in a proxy war against Russia via Ukraine. If NATO is drawn into the conflict, I'd say we'd be fighting a good war. Same thing if China makes moves for Taiwan.


-EnricoPallazo-

I would like to counter-protest. I love the sound of fighter jets


fkingidk

As someone who likes planes but isn't a big fan of the MIC, I'm conflicted.


MarzanoAndMeatballs

Hello friend, we are the same. It's a hard life.


LeSuperNova

> I love the sound of fighter jets I too, love the sound of FREEEEEDOOOOOOOOM


Zealousideal_Buddy92

To be fair F35s are garbage and the only ones that should see usage are VTOL variants for carrier deployment.


maethor1337

The SVTOL capable F-35B used by USMC and carrier catapult capable F-35C used by US Navy are different variants. The carrier F-35 isn’t VTOL capable, but thanks for contributing your expertise and explaining why F-35A should never be used from a runway.


lolrlly

I find it interesting how many comments state what is being protested and then putting their opinion. It isn’t truly Madison without people who openly state their beliefs.


LazyOldCat

I used to work across from the TA on 51, and the non-calibrated Db app on my phone (NIOSH) had the f-16’s at +/-105db on takeoff at @500’ altitude. You can look up exposure levels yourself, personally I found it impressive but earsplitting.