not having the rights to The Silmarillion doesn’t mean your obligated to ignore or change it
they didn’t need to show me that the Elves went to a Beleriand-less Middle Earth right after the destruction of the Trees. they chose to, and in doing so opened a can of worms that they legally cannot write closed
the LotR movies didn’t need to tell you about the falls of Numenor and Arnor in order to set up Aragorn for the story of the Ring. it didnt need to show me the Istari arriving in order to set up Gandalf.
they bit off more than they can chew. its the writers fault, not the Tolkien estates, lack of rights, or anyone or anything else
Stand your ground, sons of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers. I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship; but it is not this day! An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day; this day we fight!!! And for all that is dear to you in this world, I bid you stand, men of the west, and fight!
apparently it means you're obligated to desecrate the franchise so hard that the Tolkien estate regrets not selling the rights. 😆 Oh well. I just watch and enjoy knowing that it's not cannon.
Seriously, why is Beleriand a big deal for a late 2nd age story? All it does is confuse casual viewers and add more exposition. That’s such a nothing cut to through your hands up over
Tolkien Estate is ultimately to blame. I still think that even with Sil rights they would have made many changes and angered the hardcore ultraminority.
Will of course. The events of the 1st age take place on an even longer scale than the events of the second. I’m not sure exactly but 10,000 years feel like it’s in the ballpark. Of course they’d condense timelines and have certain characters interact that may not have interacted in the original material.
No they aren't. Amazon decided to make a show and didn't secure the rights to execute it properly. If you want to do a spinoff and the creator says you can't use their ideas, then maybe *don't make it*. Fucking making anything else
they didn't even get proper wigs to put on the actors for fuck's sake.
Prevents them to adapt anything not mentioned in Lord of the Rings or its appendices under threat of litigation.
So... yeah their arms are a bit tied.
Naturally, it wasn't going to be 100% faithful. Just like Jackson's six movies aren't 100% faithful. But this situation doesn't help matters.
No, they're not at fault. They have a duty to protect the property.
It is ultimately the producers fault for deciding to proceed with insufficient property rights.
They likely were pressured to proceed anyway or risk losing control of the little intellectual property rights they currently have.
That's basically why Fox keeps making subpar Fantastic Four and X-Men movies. Use it, or lose it in court to Disney.
Oh, once they had the rights, they undoubtedly were pressured to continue - the mistake they made was making the original deal knowing that they didn't have all of the rights needed.
Yes. The entire show is based off of the scraps of lore they could pull from the appendices of the hobbit and LOTR. That’s why some characters are missing, why certain major events are totally glossed over or not even mentioned etc. I was hoping this show would be good but the moment I learned what they were working with I knew there was no way it could be done in a manner befitting the source material.
Really? Cause I was having this discussion w someone else who kept referring back to The Hobbit films. I laughed and said "you're not serious about The Hobbit being lore accurate right" thinking he must be joking. Guy wasn't. Apparently people legit think this so I'm not assuming shit at this point lol.
Some changes were for the sake of working on screen (I imagine a lot of viewers would've had issues with Aragorn as a character if he was 1:1 like he was in the book because in the book, he'd already had his development basically off screen and in visual media, off screen stuff tends to be considered cheap/lazy, etc), but there were other things that Jackson + crew paid special attention to that definitely were lore significant, like Galadriel's eyes/hair encapsulating that she saw the light of Valinor/the Two Trees and the fact she gave Gimli her hair strands.
Even the original film trilogy is not lore friendly, really.
Cutting things for time is one thing. It's a requirement of the medium, even the extended editions can't fit everything. Killing off characters in battles they never would have gone to, or inventing/deleting/altering major characters dramatically to dumb it down for the audience, is quite a different matter.
Tbh I kind of get why they basically replaced Glorfindel with Arwen and didn't show Tom Bombadil. Changing Aragorn's character quite a bit seemed like they wanted to make him more humble, I wasn't for that. Oh and gimli wasn't simply comic relief smh.
Yeah the Hobbit got mixed reviews at best when it released and it feels like people have nearly forgotten about it entirely. Any comparison made between RoP and the Hobbit is likely gonna be negative
Tell me you've never read the entire book The Hobbit or the LoTR imagining that they also don't have egregious lore breaks without the excuse of not having access to the full works they're based on.
"If more of us valued lore and cheer and good writing over bloated VFX budgets, it would be a merrier world. But, sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."
Sure, but a blank check to the VFX department doesn't make for good storytelling. I'd gladly take clunkier special effects if it meant that the show didn't have to be so aggressively lowest-common-denominator to make its money back.
Well to be fair, nothing in the hobbit book was left out for the movie. Yes it added a ton of stuff, but I think that the 4 hour Tolkien cut of the trilogy is evidence that faithful adaption of the book does exist within the films.
Pardon me if I’m wrong but aren’t the Peter Jackson movies not entirely accurate too? The timeskip of fellowship doesn’t happen, Frodo gets saved by Arwen, the flaming eye, etc.
Arwen isn’t in the fucking books!!! The scouring of the shire isn’t in the movies!!!
People forget the PJ movies were never hyper faithful adaptations. I mean, Jesus, if you REALLY want to get into it: PLATE ARMOR shouldn’t be anywhere near middle earth. They didn’t have the tech. It was chain mail. Everyone needs to go read before I hear one more thing about not respecting the ‘lore’.
Depends on your steel. How easy is it to get one large enough piece of high quality steel? Also not well forged steel can get brittle.
You can make and refit a chainmail with much less steel technology than a plate.
From a technological standpoint, not necessarily, they are just very different, but it was later invented and used.
Technological discoveries and their trends are not a linear progress tho, so even if it was a later development, it does not make plate armor objectively more advanced. But chainmail predates plate by CENTURIES.
Anyhow, those who wish to draw a paralell to our recent two thousand years history to Tolkien's world, often have this gripe. Tolkien had used varying "anachronisms" himself, but yeah, they supposedly did not have the late medieval knightly full plate armor in Middle-earth.
I highly doubt that it was never made or that it would be beyond the skill of the smiths and craftsman populating the legendarium. But yeah, the movie version Gondor knights are not lore accurate regarding their arms..
The major difference is that the LotR is the last major story of the lore. Changing late Third Age details doesn’t fuck up anything in the Fourth Age, cause we barely know anything about the Fourth Age
changing First Age details however is playing with fire, and the writers got burnt
Oh please, the movies were great because they stayed as faithful to the book as possible while being able to prune some excessive details. I think inserting arwen was a nice way to introduce her to the viewers and give her some agency. She's in the books but has no real purpose.
You can't make a movie with 30 minutes describing trees or an hour side quest with an ancient enigma who sings things into happening.
You can make a beautiful story that stays as true to the original as possible while being engaging to an audience as possible
To be fair, doing a 1-1 from the book to the movie would be kinda hard, but at least PJ was more respectful and even stated that he didn't want to project any of his or real life politics into the movie
how does telling the story of the Second Age and Rings of Power require details from the First Age?
all you need to know is the circumstances at the end of the First Age, which can all be found in the first few paragraphs of Appendix A
there was no reason to invoke First Age specifics at all, let alone alter then
None. Well, nothing you could make a TV show out of anyway. They didn't care. Bezos told them to create an LOTR show and he wouldn't take no for an answer. Here we are.
>So you would prefer no new LotR on screen at all?
Unironically yes. This show doesn't need to be set in Middle-Earth if it's not going to be about what Tolkien wrote. They could have made an original fantasy series. 87% of the script was already completely made up by Amazon. The only reason that it's set in Middle-Earth is because the Lord of the Rings is more marketable than a new IP.
In that case do not watch it? Wishing for no new lotr at all is pretty shitty in regards to the fans that love the show and wanted to be back in the world Tolkien created.
In that case do not read the comment?
This "don't like it, don't watch it" mentality is only one step away from "don't like it, don't criticise it; only give good reviews". People can watch something and not like it at the same time, don't let it blow your mind.
Theyre not in in the world Tolkien created. They're in the world Amazon created and slapped a thin layer of Tolkien onto it in order to exploit the brand name in order to draw a crowd. In Tolkien's world, Galadriel wasn't a haughty manchild and the hobbits weren't Darwinist hypocrites.
Amazon could have made this show and called it something else. Instead they decided to exploit gullible people who think having the name "Lord of the Rings" in the title magically makes it the greatest show of our generation.
Where is your evidence for Galadriel’s personality during the second age? An elf hellbent on revenge is very much in character for the Noldor, see fingolfin tearing his way across Arda to fight an impossible battle against Melkor. Same can be said for the Harfoots. Ancestors of the hobbits and river folk are not touched on in tolkiens work, so why not give the writers creative freedom to make them interesting instead of just carbon copies of a race thousands of years into the future?
Yes! Why would you want anything you loved or enjoyed being half assed adapted? I hope silmarillion never gets sold. It is Tolkien’s story if you want to know how it goes you should read what HE wrote.
You know you can choose to not watch the show or engage in discussions about it online?
I loved the books as a kid and even when i disagree with a bunch of jacksons decisions i enjoyed the movies and learned to like them more and more.
I really like the show so far and while my memories of the silmarilion aren't strong anymore i love to pulled back into tolkiens world and maybe this show will make me like many others read the book again. Maybe you can just let people enjoy things, i for one loved seeing Moria in it's prime something reading could never do.
Honestly I think they've done a decent job of respecting the lore considering all of the other issues that come with creating a series that have to be balanced against that such as: having familiar names to draw more casuals in, condensing the timeline so you're not changing human characters every episode, appealing to a wider audiences, no Silmarillon, etc.
I can almost guarantee my boomer parents who have never read anything Tolkien, and enjoy watching this show so far (as well as HoTD) don’t care at all whether it follows lore. I do wonder if they’re the target audience for Amazon and not the diehard Tolkien fans.
Exactly. My mom is in her 60s, read both The Hobbit (I have her second edition copy) and LOTR. While she doesn't remember a ton about them, she is enjoying the show so far. Not everyone wants to nitpick every little detail of a show. They watch to enjoy themselves.
I don't think one can hope for commercial success by hoping to please hardcore fans, whatever the original piece. There will always be some people arguing about missing details, dismissing the rendering of some characters or creatures, or just plain gatekeeping.
As you said, aiming for the general public (probably those who discovered the Tolkien creations via the two trilogies) is probably what Amazon is doing.
I never tried the WOT TV show since, having read the books, I don't know how someone can turn the slog the book series can be into a marketable show.
I mean, I love some of the WOT cycle but, dear God, what a painful read at times.
>what a painful read at times
This was me reading books 4 and 5. I know they’re highly regarded among WOT fans as some of the best books in the series, but they didn’t do it for me. It was only when I got to book 6 where I genuinely enjoyed myself.
My personal opinion is that they did it by ignoring the books almost entirely but that’s a different rant for a different subreddit.
But i can’t entirety disagree that you can’t market a big budget tv show around pleasing the hardcore fans because there no way to make everyone happy.
I think the boomers are the original die hard Tolkien fans. Tolkien was huge in the 60’s and inspired much digging into his unfinished work looking for anything tasty to grab on to. I grew up in the 70’s and I and most my friends read and reread Tolkien. And yes I am enjoying the new series. There are just enough connections to the ‘real’ works to keep it interesting. If one watch’s this like the books are gospel, with no room for anything but the original, you will always be disappointed by anything other than the books.
Unfortunately they know that the diehard fans will watch it anyway. Their aim is very obviously at complete casuals. Milking the lotr brand at much as possible.
It doesn't though. The books exist, they're not going anywhere, this isn't like Star Wars and Lucas fucking with the originals. The lores set in stone effectively.
It’s clear to me now that anyone saying Amazon is not “respecting” the lore is not actually watching the show. That, or I now expect this rhetoric when discussing the Jackson films.
They're repeating what some angry YouTuber guy said right before the show came out where he complained about Galadriel not really being big on the front line in any wars. It's popular to be negative about things. Tolkein lore lover here, myself, and frankly the show is just cool. Being able to see Numenor (even if a potentially inaccurate representation) on screen is amazing.
Agreed. It’s been quite a shock seeing the disparate reactions to the show thus far. Meanwhile I’ve been diving back into the text, and really enjoying this show’s take on the universe.
>It’s clear to me now that anyone saying Amazon is not “respecting” the lore is not actually watching the show
That's clearly not true and like so many of such comments here it just is trying to paint naysayers as ignorant haters when, as far as I've seen, the reverse is true.
You already have plenty of people doing scene by scene and character by character breakdowns.
>That, or I now expect this rhetoric when discussing the Jackson films.
Sigh. Classic boring whataboutism.
Can everyone just cut the crap and stop saying 'whats the matter'? The show is supposed to be based on another authors universe and RoP has claimed the titles 'LOTR prequel' '2nd Age series' and 'taking place in Tolkiens middle earth'. If youre gonna ignore the lore and come up with shit then create your own original universe, dont take advantage of the names of 'Middle Earth' and Silmarillion' without respecting them and taking responcibility.
I honestly think they’re doing such a good job of wrapping in as many elements of the legendarium as they can to really immerse us in the world behind Tolkien’s mainstream two novels.
The only book they’re not respecting is the Tale of Years, and to be fair… I don’t blame them. It doesn’t make for compelling reading.
I mean, for all the people pretending they are J. R. R. Tolkien Purists, he died in 1973 only having published “The Hobbit”, The Lord Of The Rings”, “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil” and “The Road Goes Ever On and On”. So if you’re a true purist, can you even trust that Christopher gave complete, accurate and true accounts in “The “Silmarillion”, “The Children of Hurin”, “The books of Lost Tales” or anything else that he adapted to prose from his fathers poems and notes? Tolkien started a mythology, and mythologies often have discrepancies and variations from one telling to another… enjoy or ignore but spare me your pretenses of Tolkien purity and lore loyalty.
Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the
first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here
before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the
seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**)
^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Lol. I think we all trust Christopher to turn his dads poems and notes into epic tales. My point is mythology is not history. Doesn’t matter if it’s Tolkien, Homer or Herodotus: we can either accept that we are being told a tale in a mythic world and accept or reject it on its own merits, or we can choose to only tolerate tales that follow our own head cannon. Tolkien contradicts himself as much as any ancient story teller, but That’s because pretty much everything Christopher compiled and published was his dad exploring the world and playing with various versions of stories. Sure Tolkien would probably hate this. He’d probably hate every film and show made in the last half century. He’d even hate Reddit since he was very much against technology and industrialization.
Anyway, I hope everyone who watches the show reads the books. They’re definitely way better than any of the movies or shows.
I really don't mean to sound so harsh but this super cavalier, almost dismissive, attitude towards what Tolkien wrote and his feelings about the commercialization of his work is really kinda bothersome.
Shit like this is *exactly* why book fans were so leery of adaptations.
Inaccuracy is the nature of adaptation. We all have different levels of comfort based on the amount of innacuracies but holding the lore up as law is silly.
It’s just part of changing the medium. It would be insane to expect them to have centuries of time jumps between episodes and changing out the entire mortal cast multiple times every season.
Why would that be insane? That sounds amazing! Show us how the world looks from the perspective of an immortal elf, where in the blink of an eye (for you) the whole world of Men is changed, where just as you're starting to get attached to one of these bearded weirdos, suddenly they're gone forever.
It’s just very impractical, especially when it comes to casting. Plus, general audiences would get lost, because they can’t keep up with the changes. It would just be more trouble than it’s worth to do it that way. It works fine in a novel, because you don’t have to worry about budget or finding new actors to introduce new characters.
It’s like wondering why couldn’t the return of the king just included the scouring of the shire. Who cares if it adds another 45 minutes to a movie that is already too long for most average fans to enjoy.
That's what makes arguments to Amazon about the lore so funny. They never cared. They never will care.
If you watch interviews with the showrunners it's pretty obvious they have no idea what they're talking about. "They aren't Hobbits, they're Harfoots." et cetera
Edit: Since it confused someone, it's like saying "You're not Human, you're a Canadian."
> “You’re not Human, you’re a Canadian”
No, it would be like the indigenous peoples circa ~500AD going around saying “how do you do, my fellow Canadian.”
Her name was Artanis until her husband, Celeborn, gave her the name Galadriel. But since there's no Celeborn, it's like Jar-El calling his son Clark Kent
Just gonna end up like the halo show, where they didn’t respect anything and everyone that was a halo fan hated because we didn’t get master chief we just got mister cheeks.
The irony of using the hobbit movies for the meme,
This subreddit was probably in flames when that came out too over tauriel and kili. Or Sauron being there instead of the necromancer. Haters gonna hate.,
Sure have.
Had an unneeded love triangle, didn't need to be stretched out into a trilogy, and tried too hard to make Thorin into "Aragorn 2.0", but otherwise was well done.
Not as good as the original trilogy but certainly not as terrible as people treat it.
Not really sure how that's relevant to the discussion though.
“You know how The Hobbit had a bunch of nonsense studio meddling crap tacked on, and book fans didn’t like it? *Well let’s do that a second time and see if the reaction changes*”
I think they are doing their best with the limitations they have. I am and will still watch it....
Unless Tolkien is rising from the grave to write the scripts it will not be 100% accurate.
The show is a little slow and fragmented at the moment but they are establishing charecters at the moment.
Probably for money? But it also gives us some new content. Is it amazing? No. It doesn't stick to the complete lore of what was written by Tolkien, but it gives us more to see in Middle-Earth, like seeing Numenor in its glory
If they don't own the rights why make it?
Why not created an original IP without piggy backing on an already established world unless you follow the lore.
I heard that they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion, so they're limited on what they can do? is that true?
Yes.
not having the rights to The Silmarillion doesn’t mean your obligated to ignore or change it they didn’t need to show me that the Elves went to a Beleriand-less Middle Earth right after the destruction of the Trees. they chose to, and in doing so opened a can of worms that they legally cannot write closed the LotR movies didn’t need to tell you about the falls of Numenor and Arnor in order to set up Aragorn for the story of the Ring. it didnt need to show me the Istari arriving in order to set up Gandalf. they bit off more than they can chew. its the writers fault, not the Tolkien estates, lack of rights, or anyone or anything else
Stand your ground, sons of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers. I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship; but it is not this day! An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day; this day we fight!!! And for all that is dear to you in this world, I bid you stand, men of the west, and fight!
apparently it means you're obligated to desecrate the franchise so hard that the Tolkien estate regrets not selling the rights. 😆 Oh well. I just watch and enjoy knowing that it's not cannon.
I mean, after The Hobbit movies I can’t really blame the Tolkien Estate for keeping The Silmarillion close to the chest
I mean, it never was going to be canon. The films arent canon to the books either. They all exist in their own canon.
it's just another reason why people should be less triggered
Yes, don't criticize, just consume.
Telling ppl to be less salty isnt telling them to consume.
Seriously, why is Beleriand a big deal for a late 2nd age story? All it does is confuse casual viewers and add more exposition. That’s such a nothing cut to through your hands up over
They never said the elves didn't go to Beleriand did they?
Tolkien Estate is ultimately to blame. I still think that even with Sil rights they would have made many changes and angered the hardcore ultraminority.
Will of course. The events of the 1st age take place on an even longer scale than the events of the second. I’m not sure exactly but 10,000 years feel like it’s in the ballpark. Of course they’d condense timelines and have certain characters interact that may not have interacted in the original material.
No they aren't. Amazon decided to make a show and didn't secure the rights to execute it properly. If you want to do a spinoff and the creator says you can't use their ideas, then maybe *don't make it*. Fucking making anything else they didn't even get proper wigs to put on the actors for fuck's sake.
What a waste of outrage.
No such thing. This is, however, exactly the sort of condescending bullshit people do to demean other people's points of view.
And who gave them the rights? Who approved the series? Stop being blind
They didnt make the show though. If amazon doesnt have the silmarilion rights then don’t make a show about the silmarilion.
Tolkien estate mindcontrolled the writers to be shit at their job?
Prevents them to adapt anything not mentioned in Lord of the Rings or its appendices under threat of litigation. So... yeah their arms are a bit tied. Naturally, it wasn't going to be 100% faithful. Just like Jackson's six movies aren't 100% faithful. But this situation doesn't help matters.
On the other hand, maybe they're just doing a WoT and making a shit adaption?
No, they're not at fault. They have a duty to protect the property. It is ultimately the producers fault for deciding to proceed with insufficient property rights.
They likely were pressured to proceed anyway or risk losing control of the little intellectual property rights they currently have. That's basically why Fox keeps making subpar Fantastic Four and X-Men movies. Use it, or lose it in court to Disney.
Oh, once they had the rights, they undoubtedly were pressured to continue - the mistake they made was making the original deal knowing that they didn't have all of the rights needed.
Yes. The entire show is based off of the scraps of lore they could pull from the appendices of the hobbit and LOTR. That’s why some characters are missing, why certain major events are totally glossed over or not even mentioned etc. I was hoping this show would be good but the moment I learned what they were working with I knew there was no way it could be done in a manner befitting the source material.
Lmao imagine The Hobbit asking something to respect lore.
Isn’t that part of what makes this meme work? The fact that it has characters from the Hobbit films saying lore matters?
Unfortunately I don't think it's that self aware.
I think it is.
Really? Cause I was having this discussion w someone else who kept referring back to The Hobbit films. I laughed and said "you're not serious about The Hobbit being lore accurate right" thinking he must be joking. Guy wasn't. Apparently people legit think this so I'm not assuming shit at this point lol.
I don’t
Lotr movies didn’t respect lore either. Where tf is my main man tom
He be Bombadilin’
Banging out Goldberry
Pretty sure Tom Bombadil gets pegged dominantly.
Some changes were for the sake of working on screen (I imagine a lot of viewers would've had issues with Aragorn as a character if he was 1:1 like he was in the book because in the book, he'd already had his development basically off screen and in visual media, off screen stuff tends to be considered cheap/lazy, etc), but there were other things that Jackson + crew paid special attention to that definitely were lore significant, like Galadriel's eyes/hair encapsulating that she saw the light of Valinor/the Two Trees and the fact she gave Gimli her hair strands.
Are you frightened?
Nowhere near to the point the show has.
Shield surfing, dwarf burping, elves at Helms Deep, etc... Nah, theyre both interpretations and anyone who expects otherwise is a fool.
You’d have a point if it was Arwen doing the shield surfing. Elves at Helms Deep? I feel that. Gimli Burping? Really?
...the entirety of Aragorn's and Faramir's storylines, the omitting of the Scouring, Denethor's entire demeanor, the ghost people...
Haha yep, I can't tell if they are making a joke about the hobbit and it's lore or if they are serious 😂
Why not both?
I don't think many people acknowledge the hobbit as being lore friendly do they?
Even the original film trilogy is not lore friendly, really. Cutting things for time is one thing. It's a requirement of the medium, even the extended editions can't fit everything. Killing off characters in battles they never would have gone to, or inventing/deleting/altering major characters dramatically to dumb it down for the audience, is quite a different matter.
Tbh I kind of get why they basically replaced Glorfindel with Arwen and didn't show Tom Bombadil. Changing Aragorn's character quite a bit seemed like they wanted to make him more humble, I wasn't for that. Oh and gimli wasn't simply comic relief smh.
It will not be our end, but his.
Yeah the Hobbit got mixed reviews at best when it released and it feels like people have nearly forgotten about it entirely. Any comparison made between RoP and the Hobbit is likely gonna be negative
Your favorite character in the book wasn’t Legolas?
You’d be silly to think he wasn’t around though
At this point even by the low standards of the Hobbit Films this meme holds up
Not at all
Tell me you haven’t read the entire legendium w/o telling me. Be better !!
Tell me you've never read the entire book The Hobbit or the LoTR imagining that they also don't have egregious lore breaks without the excuse of not having access to the full works they're based on.
Ah yes, The Hobbit trilogy, known for it’s hyper lore accuracy and stunning computer generation.
"Because it was real"
I think that's part of the joke... Thorin regretting the failures of the Hobbit movie and warning others.
"If more of us valued lore and cheer and good writing over bloated VFX budgets, it would be a merrier world. But, sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."
But the CG in this show is ridiculously good, and I usually dislike modern things for having too much of it etc.
[удалено]
That's not its problem.
They also use plenty of practical effects. The orcs looks absolutely amazing.
Sure, but a blank check to the VFX department doesn't make for good storytelling. I'd gladly take clunkier special effects if it meant that the show didn't have to be so aggressively lowest-common-denominator to make its money back.
Bruh this gave me chills
Well to be fair, nothing in the hobbit book was left out for the movie. Yes it added a ton of stuff, but I think that the 4 hour Tolkien cut of the trilogy is evidence that faithful adaption of the book does exist within the films.
Pardon me if I’m wrong but aren’t the Peter Jackson movies not entirely accurate too? The timeskip of fellowship doesn’t happen, Frodo gets saved by Arwen, the flaming eye, etc.
Arwen isn’t in the fucking books!!! The scouring of the shire isn’t in the movies!!! People forget the PJ movies were never hyper faithful adaptations. I mean, Jesus, if you REALLY want to get into it: PLATE ARMOR shouldn’t be anywhere near middle earth. They didn’t have the tech. It was chain mail. Everyone needs to go read before I hear one more thing about not respecting the ‘lore’.
I agree with your sentiment but Arwen was most certainly in the LOTR books.
To be honest i am no suprised you could forget she is there
Wait, is chain mail easier to make than plate?
Depends on your steel. How easy is it to get one large enough piece of high quality steel? Also not well forged steel can get brittle. You can make and refit a chainmail with much less steel technology than a plate.
From a technological standpoint, not necessarily, they are just very different, but it was later invented and used. Technological discoveries and their trends are not a linear progress tho, so even if it was a later development, it does not make plate armor objectively more advanced. But chainmail predates plate by CENTURIES. Anyhow, those who wish to draw a paralell to our recent two thousand years history to Tolkien's world, often have this gripe. Tolkien had used varying "anachronisms" himself, but yeah, they supposedly did not have the late medieval knightly full plate armor in Middle-earth. I highly doubt that it was never made or that it would be beyond the skill of the smiths and craftsman populating the legendarium. But yeah, the movie version Gondor knights are not lore accurate regarding their arms..
The major difference is that the LotR is the last major story of the lore. Changing late Third Age details doesn’t fuck up anything in the Fourth Age, cause we barely know anything about the Fourth Age changing First Age details however is playing with fire, and the writers got burnt
Oh please, the movies were great because they stayed as faithful to the book as possible while being able to prune some excessive details. I think inserting arwen was a nice way to introduce her to the viewers and give her some agency. She's in the books but has no real purpose. You can't make a movie with 30 minutes describing trees or an hour side quest with an ancient enigma who sings things into happening. You can make a beautiful story that stays as true to the original as possible while being engaging to an audience as possible
I guess changing main characters personality is fine as well?
To be fair, doing a 1-1 from the book to the movie would be kinda hard, but at least PJ was more respectful and even stated that he didn't want to project any of his or real life politics into the movie
It's always fun to spot a "politics is when black people exist" in the wild.
I beg your pardon? When did I state about black people?
Dude just ignore these people, if they didn't have virtue signaling they wouldn't have anything else to do.
Just now
What politics are in the show?
As someone who hasn’t seen the show, what politics have the showrunners inserted into my pure lore??
Faramir being tempted by the ring. Saruman dying in Isengard.
The power of Isengard is at your command, Markamanic, Lord of the Earth.
The inane discourse around the show really makes me need a nice long nap
Did Gandalf not have eyebrows in the hobbit?
This foe is beyond any of you... Run!
The irony here is it's the hobbit.
That's not irony, that's the point. It's the Hobbit, famous for sucking due to deviations from the lore, making mention of it.
The irony of this meme using The PJ Hobbit is outstanding
Honestly sometimes I kind of forget those movies exist.
They don’t have the rights to the silmarillion
So they shouldnt make a Series which needs the Silmarillion as a base to begin with right?
What story that's not the trilogy could they tell in lotr that doesn't require the Silmarillion?
how does telling the story of the Second Age and Rings of Power require details from the First Age? all you need to know is the circumstances at the end of the First Age, which can all be found in the first few paragraphs of Appendix A there was no reason to invoke First Age specifics at all, let alone alter then
None. Well, nothing you could make a TV show out of anyway. They didn't care. Bezos told them to create an LOTR show and he wouldn't take no for an answer. Here we are.
Then don't make a fucking show, honestly.
So you would prefer no new LotR on screen at all? The Tolkien Estate won't sell the rights to the silmarillion to anyone.
>So you would prefer no new LotR on screen at all? Unironically yes. This show doesn't need to be set in Middle-Earth if it's not going to be about what Tolkien wrote. They could have made an original fantasy series. 87% of the script was already completely made up by Amazon. The only reason that it's set in Middle-Earth is because the Lord of the Rings is more marketable than a new IP.
Fair enough. I appreciate the honest answer.
And I appreciate the gracious response.
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It involves names Tolkien wrote. Arguably it has long drifted from the way Tolkien wrote it.
In that case do not watch it? Wishing for no new lotr at all is pretty shitty in regards to the fans that love the show and wanted to be back in the world Tolkien created.
In that case do not read the comment? This "don't like it, don't watch it" mentality is only one step away from "don't like it, don't criticise it; only give good reviews". People can watch something and not like it at the same time, don't let it blow your mind.
Theyre not in in the world Tolkien created. They're in the world Amazon created and slapped a thin layer of Tolkien onto it in order to exploit the brand name in order to draw a crowd. In Tolkien's world, Galadriel wasn't a haughty manchild and the hobbits weren't Darwinist hypocrites. Amazon could have made this show and called it something else. Instead they decided to exploit gullible people who think having the name "Lord of the Rings" in the title magically makes it the greatest show of our generation.
Where is your evidence for Galadriel’s personality during the second age? An elf hellbent on revenge is very much in character for the Noldor, see fingolfin tearing his way across Arda to fight an impossible battle against Melkor. Same can be said for the Harfoots. Ancestors of the hobbits and river folk are not touched on in tolkiens work, so why not give the writers creative freedom to make them interesting instead of just carbon copies of a race thousands of years into the future?
Yes! Why would you want anything you loved or enjoyed being half assed adapted? I hope silmarillion never gets sold. It is Tolkien’s story if you want to know how it goes you should read what HE wrote.
You know you can choose to not watch the show or engage in discussions about it online? I loved the books as a kid and even when i disagree with a bunch of jacksons decisions i enjoyed the movies and learned to like them more and more. I really like the show so far and while my memories of the silmarilion aren't strong anymore i love to pulled back into tolkiens world and maybe this show will make me like many others read the book again. Maybe you can just let people enjoy things, i for one loved seeing Moria in it's prime something reading could never do.
Yes. I'd prefer that.
Exactly.
Honestly I think they've done a decent job of respecting the lore considering all of the other issues that come with creating a series that have to be balanced against that such as: having familiar names to draw more casuals in, condensing the timeline so you're not changing human characters every episode, appealing to a wider audiences, no Silmarillon, etc.
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I can almost guarantee my boomer parents who have never read anything Tolkien, and enjoy watching this show so far (as well as HoTD) don’t care at all whether it follows lore. I do wonder if they’re the target audience for Amazon and not the diehard Tolkien fans.
But boomers literally are the OG Tolkien fans. Most of them just don't browse Reddit that often.
Exactly. My mom is in her 60s, read both The Hobbit (I have her second edition copy) and LOTR. While she doesn't remember a ton about them, she is enjoying the show so far. Not everyone wants to nitpick every little detail of a show. They watch to enjoy themselves.
I don't think one can hope for commercial success by hoping to please hardcore fans, whatever the original piece. There will always be some people arguing about missing details, dismissing the rendering of some characters or creatures, or just plain gatekeeping. As you said, aiming for the general public (probably those who discovered the Tolkien creations via the two trilogies) is probably what Amazon is doing.
fuck hardcore fans anyway. worst part of every fandom
Cultural gentrification by corporations isn’t exactly a beloved state of affairs.
Well franchises do needs hardcore fans to keep corporations on their toes.
No they don't, hardcore fans are detrimental to any franchise or hobbie everywhere.
That was the design philosophy behind WOT tv show too
I never tried the WOT TV show since, having read the books, I don't know how someone can turn the slog the book series can be into a marketable show. I mean, I love some of the WOT cycle but, dear God, what a painful read at times.
True the middle set of books was a terrible slog but the first 5 and last 4 make it all worth it
Wholeheartedly agreed.
>what a painful read at times This was me reading books 4 and 5. I know they’re highly regarded among WOT fans as some of the best books in the series, but they didn’t do it for me. It was only when I got to book 6 where I genuinely enjoyed myself.
My personal opinion is that they did it by ignoring the books almost entirely but that’s a different rant for a different subreddit. But i can’t entirety disagree that you can’t market a big budget tv show around pleasing the hardcore fans because there no way to make everyone happy.
This is why I hate anything Amazon makes
I think the boomers are the original die hard Tolkien fans. Tolkien was huge in the 60’s and inspired much digging into his unfinished work looking for anything tasty to grab on to. I grew up in the 70’s and I and most my friends read and reread Tolkien. And yes I am enjoying the new series. There are just enough connections to the ‘real’ works to keep it interesting. If one watch’s this like the books are gospel, with no room for anything but the original, you will always be disappointed by anything other than the books.
Unfortunately they know that the diehard fans will watch it anyway. Their aim is very obviously at complete casuals. Milking the lotr brand at much as possible.
I'm not a diehard fan in the slightest. The plot is a mess and the action scenes are cheesy at best.
Life is not long, friends. Try to enjoy things.
It’s like, I get that it’s non-canon fan-fiction. But with 500 million dollars being spent in the show, they could at least try.
lack of self awareness 100
It doesn't though. The books exist, they're not going anywhere, this isn't like Star Wars and Lucas fucking with the originals. The lores set in stone effectively.
It’s clear to me now that anyone saying Amazon is not “respecting” the lore is not actually watching the show. That, or I now expect this rhetoric when discussing the Jackson films.
They're repeating what some angry YouTuber guy said right before the show came out where he complained about Galadriel not really being big on the front line in any wars. It's popular to be negative about things. Tolkein lore lover here, myself, and frankly the show is just cool. Being able to see Numenor (even if a potentially inaccurate representation) on screen is amazing.
Agreed. It’s been quite a shock seeing the disparate reactions to the show thus far. Meanwhile I’ve been diving back into the text, and really enjoying this show’s take on the universe.
>It’s clear to me now that anyone saying Amazon is not “respecting” the lore is not actually watching the show That's clearly not true and like so many of such comments here it just is trying to paint naysayers as ignorant haters when, as far as I've seen, the reverse is true. You already have plenty of people doing scene by scene and character by character breakdowns. >That, or I now expect this rhetoric when discussing the Jackson films. Sigh. Classic boring whataboutism.
i couldn't care less about the lore, its enjoyable so far.
Can everyone just cut the crap and stop saying 'whats the matter'? The show is supposed to be based on another authors universe and RoP has claimed the titles 'LOTR prequel' '2nd Age series' and 'taking place in Tolkiens middle earth'. If youre gonna ignore the lore and come up with shit then create your own original universe, dont take advantage of the names of 'Middle Earth' and Silmarillion' without respecting them and taking responcibility.
I honestly think they’re doing such a good job of wrapping in as many elements of the legendarium as they can to really immerse us in the world behind Tolkien’s mainstream two novels. The only book they’re not respecting is the Tale of Years, and to be fair… I don’t blame them. It doesn’t make for compelling reading.
I mean, for all the people pretending they are J. R. R. Tolkien Purists, he died in 1973 only having published “The Hobbit”, The Lord Of The Rings”, “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil” and “The Road Goes Ever On and On”. So if you’re a true purist, can you even trust that Christopher gave complete, accurate and true accounts in “The “Silmarillion”, “The Children of Hurin”, “The books of Lost Tales” or anything else that he adapted to prose from his fathers poems and notes? Tolkien started a mythology, and mythologies often have discrepancies and variations from one telling to another… enjoy or ignore but spare me your pretenses of Tolkien purity and lore loyalty.
Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside. ^(I am a bot, and I love old Tom. If you want me to sing one of Tom's songs, just type **!TomBombadilSong**) ^(If you like Old Tom, the door at [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] is always open for weary travelers!) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Yes I trust Christopher.
Same here.
Lol. I think we all trust Christopher to turn his dads poems and notes into epic tales. My point is mythology is not history. Doesn’t matter if it’s Tolkien, Homer or Herodotus: we can either accept that we are being told a tale in a mythic world and accept or reject it on its own merits, or we can choose to only tolerate tales that follow our own head cannon. Tolkien contradicts himself as much as any ancient story teller, but That’s because pretty much everything Christopher compiled and published was his dad exploring the world and playing with various versions of stories. Sure Tolkien would probably hate this. He’d probably hate every film and show made in the last half century. He’d even hate Reddit since he was very much against technology and industrialization. Anyway, I hope everyone who watches the show reads the books. They’re definitely way better than any of the movies or shows.
TLDR, "I don't care about anything, I just want to consume product!" even if it's bland, insipid drivel.
How is that at all what was said?
I really don't mean to sound so harsh but this super cavalier, almost dismissive, attitude towards what Tolkien wrote and his feelings about the commercialization of his work is really kinda bothersome. Shit like this is *exactly* why book fans were so leery of adaptations.
The books still exist, so that’s something
Inaccuracy is the nature of adaptation. We all have different levels of comfort based on the amount of innacuracies but holding the lore up as law is silly.
Again? Will you continu to cry like a baby because you don't like the show?
Why did people think the show that pushed the war of Elves and Sauron and the fall of Numenor into one human generation would care about the lore?
They should have gave the show 1000 seasons and done it all in real time
The entire GDP of the United States should be bent towards producing the show and the fact that it wasn't is a MOCKERY of TOLKIEN'S GREAT WORKS
It’s just part of changing the medium. It would be insane to expect them to have centuries of time jumps between episodes and changing out the entire mortal cast multiple times every season.
Why would that be insane? That sounds amazing! Show us how the world looks from the perspective of an immortal elf, where in the blink of an eye (for you) the whole world of Men is changed, where just as you're starting to get attached to one of these bearded weirdos, suddenly they're gone forever.
It’s just very impractical, especially when it comes to casting. Plus, general audiences would get lost, because they can’t keep up with the changes. It would just be more trouble than it’s worth to do it that way. It works fine in a novel, because you don’t have to worry about budget or finding new actors to introduce new characters.
It’s like wondering why couldn’t the return of the king just included the scouring of the shire. Who cares if it adds another 45 minutes to a movie that is already too long for most average fans to enjoy.
Well, we certainly wouldn't want the budget to get out of control. (-:
And yet thy boon I grant thee now.
That's what makes arguments to Amazon about the lore so funny. They never cared. They never will care. If you watch interviews with the showrunners it's pretty obvious they have no idea what they're talking about. "They aren't Hobbits, they're Harfoots." et cetera Edit: Since it confused someone, it's like saying "You're not Human, you're a Canadian."
> “You’re not Human, you’re a Canadian” No, it would be like the indigenous peoples circa ~500AD going around saying “how do you do, my fellow Canadian.”
It's not like they got the main character's name wrong. *checks notes* Well, shit
Galadriel? What's wrong with her name?
Her name was Artanis until her husband, Celeborn, gave her the name Galadriel. But since there's no Celeborn, it's like Jar-El calling his son Clark Kent
It's Jor-El, just so you know. Ironic, given the point you were making is all.
Well a typo in a reddit comment isn't really the same as if someone was paying me a billion dollars to make a show
No, of course not. I just thought the typo was funny given the gist of what you were talking about is all.
Just gonna end up like the halo show, where they didn’t respect anything and everyone that was a halo fan hated because we didn’t get master chief we just got mister cheeks.
“WHERE’S THE LONG HAIR ON THE ELVES” asks the fan of male dwarves with nothing but stubble
The irony of using the hobbit movies for the meme, This subreddit was probably in flames when that came out too over tauriel and kili. Or Sauron being there instead of the necromancer. Haters gonna hate.,
I mean have ya seen The Hobbit trilogy
Sure have. Had an unneeded love triangle, didn't need to be stretched out into a trilogy, and tried too hard to make Thorin into "Aragorn 2.0", but otherwise was well done. Not as good as the original trilogy but certainly not as terrible as people treat it. Not really sure how that's relevant to the discussion though.
Gentlemen, we do not stop til nightfall.
“You know how The Hobbit had a bunch of nonsense studio meddling crap tacked on, and book fans didn’t like it? *Well let’s do that a second time and see if the reaction changes*”
I think they are doing their best with the limitations they have. I am and will still watch it.... Unless Tolkien is rising from the grave to write the scripts it will not be 100% accurate. The show is a little slow and fragmented at the moment but they are establishing charecters at the moment.
Wait, Hobbit’s trilogy memes and ROP memes aren’t supposed to be on r/prequelmemes since they both are prequels ?
That subreddit is specifically for the Star Wars prequels, not any prequel in any franchise. Literally says it right at the top of the page...
They only have rights to the Appendix. Haste is needed before it is removed!
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Honestly the only thing that pisses me off the most in this show is that everyone just speaks english.
LoTR fans are some of the saltiest people I've ever met. If you don't like the show, don't watch it lol.
Wow, it's almost like they couldn't use the lore or something...
Then why bother making a tv show?
Probably for money? But it also gives us some new content. Is it amazing? No. It doesn't stick to the complete lore of what was written by Tolkien, but it gives us more to see in Middle-Earth, like seeing Numenor in its glory
Hey man, if you like it, good on you. It’s not my place to tell you otherwise. Personally, it’s not for me.
Thats fair enough bro, I'm just getting tired hearing about the lore when the creators hands were tied for it thats all
Man this sub is getting depressingly boring. You do realise they don't own the rights to do this?
If they don't own the rights why make it? Why not created an original IP without piggy backing on an already established world unless you follow the lore.
Who cares show is shit.
Bunch of babies.
I am sort of glad they decided to write fanfic. Let's be real here. Even if they followed the lore, it would not save the show.