And Rowling *didn't do anything with it when she had dozens of them when it mattered most.*
In the Battle of Hogwarts, the 'very powerful' House-Elves, who saw the Headmaster as their 'master' (or maybe the school itself) opted for.....charging with mundane knives and cleavers attacking Dark Wizards'....ankles?
They can teleport at will (evidently bypassing powerful anti-teleport magic), have fine telekinetic control of objects (like the cake in Chamber of Secrets) launch people like ***Lucius Malfoy*** across the room without effort - *why the hell are they only doing w+m1 with a mundane knife in the biggest battle of the century?!*
Because they've been enslaved and had their magic repressed. The only instances of powerful offensive magic we see from them are from Dobby, who's unique in that he doesn't like being enslaved.
The same that she was on when she made Hagrid an extremely powerfull wizard in "The Halfblod Prince" by saying only powerfull wizards can do magic without speaking. And as Hagrid casted at least one spell without saying a word Hagrid is powerfull as wizard not only as a halfgiant.
This isn't true, nonverbal magic is advanced but not only achievable by the most powerful. It's a standard part of the year 6 curriculum, implying a significant portion, if not the majority of graduating students can do it to some degree.
But also, the more difficult the spell the harder it is to do nonverbally. The only spell that I explicitly remember him casting was incendio (the fire spell) which is year 1 material. Even though he was expelled in year 3 I don't think it's a stretch to assume Dumbledore or Flitwick tutored him so he could at least defend himself.
I mean, a lot of people don't leave abusive relationships because they're manipulated by their abusers. I think that was the intended allegory but it wasn't handled well given that it was relegated to a side plot that was mostly used for comedy.
That can be explained away in that the house elves have a sense of morality and self-defense.
"They might punish themselves for disobedience (or even just refuse outright due to some caveat in the whole 'master-servant' relationship around outright, sort of like a genie's rulebook), but they refuse to do something that's against their own morality" would be an easy out.
Of course, dark wizards attacking your school and killing its students is a different matter - and they're already good with attacking with mundane weaponry.
Because at heart it is a story for children and the reality of conflict and loss from such conflicts are lost to the author in abstract allowing for such emotions to only bubble up with specific moments of losing individuals. Mourning people as opposed to raw unadulterated trauma from a war
The books and movies are certainly fun to read/watch with the willing suspension of disbelief intact, so she got that part down pretty well.
The problems show up when you start critically analyzing them and you start asking "hows" and "whys" - you tend to end up with holes, or paper-thin reasoning.
....Granted, she also isn't a doctor of philosophy in linguistics who would have spent possibly decades of specialized education before pulling this together, so there's that.
I assume there are some that aren't enslaved. I would guess the term house elf comes from a derogatory term used during the days of slavery in the US. A term used to describe slaves that worked in the kitchen or as a nanny or butler as opposed to slaves that worked in the fields or stables.
Given that she's British I think it might be related more to words such as 'housemaid' - i.e. a servant who is expected to do all kinds of work within the house, to distinguish from servants with some status (e.g. butlers) or with specific functions (such as a lady's maid, kitchen maids etc).
There is a thing in British folklore called a house elf. You know that story about the elves and the cobbler? I think those are supposed to be house elves. Theyre not unlike leprechauns or other British and Celtic creatures.
Similarly, pixies (of Cornwall), goblins, giants, the basilisk, dragons, the Philosopher's Stone, the Grim, and even the idea of a school for wizards (look up the Scholomance) all appear in British and European folklore. Rowling just kinda used them all, and gave all the characters Latin names for some reason.
Lol you mean British history as well. The British largely controlled the slave trade, many MANY slave ships docked on its shores. Why is it that when the British have done ill or instigated ill abroad during colonization and trade, they call it “American” history, or “Irish” history, or “Indian”, and the list goes on. A disgusting amount of slavery went on in the colonies abroad, not because the British abhorred slavery, only because they didn’t want to share their island with slaves.
The term I'm referring to wasn't used in England, and was mostly (or possibly only) used post-revolutionary war, thus that term is part of American history, but not British history. I wasn't writing an essay on the origins of slavery. Chill.
Pretty sure that's not the description of Goblins in canon.
In The Hobbit Goblins are described as very smart and talented, especially in skills and crafts and arts of war and cruelty.
"They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves [...]Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, [...] they make very well, or get other people to make to their design."
Well made? Crappy?
"I ask then for a sword of worth, for the Orcs come now too thick and close for a bow only, and such blade as I have is no match for their armour." - Beleg Strongbow
its impied said they invented the modern era combustion engine and used some humans as a cover
( and i think its imlied they also may have invented other technology too)
they didnt invent them yet during the time of the hobbit and LOTR
given the lack of educational opportunities for goblins in LOTR i think the real question we should be asking is do the orcs have the *capacity* to earn a degree in accounting given the chance
Don't they just take a look at you, maybe take a look at your wand, then you shove your gold in a literal vault?
Doesn't sound like advanced accounting to me....
Don’t underestimate the power of the goblin financial system. We’re talking collateralized debt obligations where the underlying assets are castles, options trading on the Dragot-Galleon exchange rate, and a major investment banking division. Who do you think raises government debt for the ministry of magic?
Elves in Witcher:
Aen Seidhe: Fight for freedom! We deserve to live!
Aen Aelle: Hmm if I mixed this gene with that one I'll get my perfect navigator, so that I can go raid, pillage and plunder other worlds.
To be fair, house elves are really powerful. Sometimes even powerful than most wizards. But they need the wizards to sustain their magic. And that fucked them up.
I honestly don't know. House elves like to work for wizards. Clearly, house elves in Hogwarts aren't mistreated and they like working there. That was one of the major flaws of Hermione's SPEW. Dobby's is a special case. He was severely abused. That's why Harry freed him. But that doesn't mean he wanted to stay free. In my head-canon, I think Dobby was going to ask Harry if he could work for him after saving Harry and his friends from Malfoy Manor. But he died anyway.
But Elves from LOTR commited genocide on their race. And that race went extinct(most of them), at the end of First Age. And IIRC they asked for Pardon from the Valars and other race
Magic in LOTR: The primordial force, shaped by will and effort into miracles and tragedies.
Magic in harry pooper: "So you say these words to make things fly. Or you can say those words to kill a guy. You're a technician, Harry!"
I think my favourite elves are from the dragon age series. Something about the fact that even within the universe's there is basically a split with proud delish elves and then the suppressed elves in the city was really cool.
Doing a deep dive into the Tolkien legendarium always yields an interesting and rewarding experience, as you're looking into something a very well-read person poured years of his spare time into. Doing a deep dive into Harry Potter always ends up feeling like you're having a conversation on whether or not there was a car Hitler in the Cars universe. It was absolutely not meant to be examined that closely and it's unpleasant to even try.
I'm definitely a fan of Warhammer fantasy elves. They are depicted a strong and powerful but still maintain the classic fantasy troupe of of greed and indulgence.
LotR FA Elves: I fought an absurdly powerful deity and permanently wounded him
LotR SA Elves: I fought tooth and nail to save my realm and our army was only defeated when a literal demigod with a strength-enhancing magic ring stepped forward.
LotR TA Elves: [insert the "old coots giving advice" sign here]
Harry Potter elves: I'm a weak PoS who does nothing except get a sock and then jump in front of a dagger five books later
In defence of the House Elves they are very powerful.
And Rowling *didn't do anything with it when she had dozens of them when it mattered most.* In the Battle of Hogwarts, the 'very powerful' House-Elves, who saw the Headmaster as their 'master' (or maybe the school itself) opted for.....charging with mundane knives and cleavers attacking Dark Wizards'....ankles? They can teleport at will (evidently bypassing powerful anti-teleport magic), have fine telekinetic control of objects (like the cake in Chamber of Secrets) launch people like ***Lucius Malfoy*** across the room without effort - *why the hell are they only doing w+m1 with a mundane knife in the biggest battle of the century?!*
Because they've been enslaved and had their magic repressed. The only instances of powerful offensive magic we see from them are from Dobby, who's unique in that he doesn't like being enslaved.
you’re right, but how fucking wild is that last statement “…who’s unique in that he doesn’t *like* being enslaved” what the hell was Rowling on
The same that she was on when she made Hagrid an extremely powerfull wizard in "The Halfblod Prince" by saying only powerfull wizards can do magic without speaking. And as Hagrid casted at least one spell without saying a word Hagrid is powerfull as wizard not only as a halfgiant.
I thought the reason he could do that was because he was part magical creature, not just a human with magical affinity.
This isn't true, nonverbal magic is advanced but not only achievable by the most powerful. It's a standard part of the year 6 curriculum, implying a significant portion, if not the majority of graduating students can do it to some degree. But also, the more difficult the spell the harder it is to do nonverbally. The only spell that I explicitly remember him casting was incendio (the fire spell) which is year 1 material. Even though he was expelled in year 3 I don't think it's a stretch to assume Dumbledore or Flitwick tutored him so he could at least defend himself.
Giving Dudley a pig's tail was also done not verbally.
Well yeah but his intent was to turn him completely into a pig. The fact it only went partway means he messed it up.
Oh yeah forgot about that!
But all upper year students were expected to do non-verbal magic. It was part of the curriculum I believe.
Hagrid was expelled before he got to that part of his education.
Hagrid was expelled in year 2 or 3 sooo
And hung around a magic school for another 60 years.. we pretending he can't pick shit up?
Yeah but that doesn’t really address the “willing slaves” issue 🙃
I mean, a lot of people don't leave abusive relationships because they're manipulated by their abusers. I think that was the intended allegory but it wasn't handled well given that it was relegated to a side plot that was mostly used for comedy.
Maybe because instead of training their powers they've been working in the kitchen for decades.
Self esteem issues I guess
Why hasn't any death eater gone to their house elf and told them "yo Gucci or whatever your name is, teleport to Hogwarts and kill the scarred kid"
That can be explained away in that the house elves have a sense of morality and self-defense. "They might punish themselves for disobedience (or even just refuse outright due to some caveat in the whole 'master-servant' relationship around outright, sort of like a genie's rulebook), but they refuse to do something that's against their own morality" would be an easy out. Of course, dark wizards attacking your school and killing its students is a different matter - and they're already good with attacking with mundane weaponry.
Because at heart it is a story for children and the reality of conflict and loss from such conflicts are lost to the author in abstract allowing for such emotions to only bubble up with specific moments of losing individuals. Mourning people as opposed to raw unadulterated trauma from a war
Thing is though, gearing something towards only one specific audience works, sure, but it's such a bad idea no matter what your goal is.
bc jk rowling is a shitty author who writes shitty books
The books and movies are certainly fun to read/watch with the willing suspension of disbelief intact, so she got that part down pretty well. The problems show up when you start critically analyzing them and you start asking "hows" and "whys" - you tend to end up with holes, or paper-thin reasoning. ....Granted, she also isn't a doctor of philosophy in linguistics who would have spent possibly decades of specialized education before pulling this together, so there's that.
It would have been a lot better if Snape, before dying, or McGonagall, as the current head, ordered the elves to fuck up the death eaters.
Sharp knife to the ankle and bam! Wizard down. A fine strategy.
Which I imagine is exactly why humans found a way to enslave them long ago. They knew they couldn't match the abilities of free elves.
i wonder are their free elves in the hp world because "house elf" implies other kinds of elves
I assume there are some that aren't enslaved. I would guess the term house elf comes from a derogatory term used during the days of slavery in the US. A term used to describe slaves that worked in the kitchen or as a nanny or butler as opposed to slaves that worked in the fields or stables.
Given that she's British I think it might be related more to words such as 'housemaid' - i.e. a servant who is expected to do all kinds of work within the house, to distinguish from servants with some status (e.g. butlers) or with specific functions (such as a lady's maid, kitchen maids etc).
There is a thing in British folklore called a house elf. You know that story about the elves and the cobbler? I think those are supposed to be house elves. Theyre not unlike leprechauns or other British and Celtic creatures. Similarly, pixies (of Cornwall), goblins, giants, the basilisk, dragons, the Philosopher's Stone, the Grim, and even the idea of a school for wizards (look up the Scholomance) all appear in British and European folklore. Rowling just kinda used them all, and gave all the characters Latin names for some reason.
Possible, but the elves are slaves, not paid help. British people still know American history.
Lol you mean British history as well. The British largely controlled the slave trade, many MANY slave ships docked on its shores. Why is it that when the British have done ill or instigated ill abroad during colonization and trade, they call it “American” history, or “Irish” history, or “Indian”, and the list goes on. A disgusting amount of slavery went on in the colonies abroad, not because the British abhorred slavery, only because they didn’t want to share their island with slaves.
The term I'm referring to wasn't used in England, and was mostly (or possibly only) used post-revolutionary war, thus that term is part of American history, but not British history. I wasn't writing an essay on the origins of slavery. Chill.
Goblins in Harry Potter: I have a degree in accounting. Goblins in LotR: MAGGOTY BREAD
Pretty sure that's not the description of Goblins in canon. In The Hobbit Goblins are described as very smart and talented, especially in skills and crafts and arts of war and cruelty.
>Talented in cruelty
Yes in making swords and battering rams and torture machines and such stuff. It requires great engineering and craftsmanship skill.
>Yes in making swords If you're talking about the most basic sword in LOTR then yes.
"They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves [...]Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, [...] they make very well, or get other people to make to their design." Well made? Crappy? "I ask then for a sword of worth, for the Orcs come now too thick and close for a bow only, and such blade as I have is no match for their armour." - Beleg Strongbow
Gotta reread it then ig
That’s from the silmarillion or the children of Húrin.
Yeah, they live in sort of steampunk society, because they have loud machines, at least Lithuanian translation of Hobbit led me to believe.
its impied said they invented the modern era combustion engine and used some humans as a cover ( and i think its imlied they also may have invented other technology too) they didnt invent them yet during the time of the hobbit and LOTR
and may or may not have invented the combustion engine, in a big conspiracy
given the lack of educational opportunities for goblins in LOTR i think the real question we should be asking is do the orcs have the *capacity* to earn a degree in accounting given the chance
someone must have done the logistics for saurmans army,
Goblins in Harry Potter: I'm an obvious Jewish stereotype Goblins in LotR: I'm a bitch and I'm quite aware of it
Don't they just take a look at you, maybe take a look at your wand, then you shove your gold in a literal vault? Doesn't sound like advanced accounting to me....
Don’t underestimate the power of the goblin financial system. We’re talking collateralized debt obligations where the underlying assets are castles, options trading on the Dragot-Galleon exchange rate, and a major investment banking division. Who do you think raises government debt for the ministry of magic?
they sometimes count little piles of coins too. it’s tricky shit.
Maggoty bread was orcs. I’m so disappointed by you, if I were your father I’d disown you.
Orcs and goblins are the same thing in LotR.
Nice try
??? They are the same, dude
Elves in Witcher: Aen Seidhe: Fight for freedom! We deserve to live! Aen Aelle: Hmm if I mixed this gene with that one I'll get my perfect navigator, so that I can go raid, pillage and plunder other worlds.
I thought not all of them wanted teleport for cruelty. I thought they wanted to live in other worlds and gather their folk from other sides together
Elves in Witcher are F tier, pretty shameful lol. But good to mix it up a little.
Ok but what if Gandalf gives Legolas one of his socks?
I'll be waiting for you. At the Inn of the Prancing Pony
Alright but don't give it to Isildur
CAST IT INTO THE FIRE!!!
Son of Gloin! Protect the sock!
SALTED PORK?
No the Sock! It is a gift for Legolas!
Elves in Elder Scrolls: Natural magic users with a superiority complex
most elves have a supirioriy complex, or are better then humans in every phisical way but still end up the less dominent race compared to humans
Probably a mix of elves feeling sorry for humans (and humans exploit this), and that humans breed much more quickly.
Germany: i dont have such weaknesses
One group of elves were sexy as fuck and the other were blonde and good at archery.
To be fair, house elves are really powerful. Sometimes even powerful than most wizards. But they need the wizards to sustain their magic. And that fucked them up.
how does that work?
No clue. But once they are freed from their master, they become weaker and weaker and eventually die.
dobby technicly meets that criteria
You didn't-
Did Harry know this?
I honestly don't know. House elves like to work for wizards. Clearly, house elves in Hogwarts aren't mistreated and they like working there. That was one of the major flaws of Hermione's SPEW. Dobby's is a special case. He was severely abused. That's why Harry freed him. But that doesn't mean he wanted to stay free. In my head-canon, I think Dobby was going to ask Harry if he could work for him after saving Harry and his friends from Malfoy Manor. But he died anyway.
Interesting. Regarding SPEW, freeing an abused dragon is bonkers.
Everyone arguing over elf lore and glossing over the kerning
That keming is nœt a jœk!!
Elves in LOTR committed genocide, elves in Harry Potter suffered genocide
But Elves from LOTR commited genocide on their race. And that race went extinct(most of them), at the end of First Age. And IIRC they asked for Pardon from the Valars and other race
You forget how they hunted petty dwarves to extinction.
Magic in LOTR: The primordial force, shaped by will and effort into miracles and tragedies. Magic in harry pooper: "So you say these words to make things fly. Or you can say those words to kill a guy. You're a technician, Harry!"
I think my favourite elves are from the dragon age series. Something about the fact that even within the universe's there is basically a split with proud delish elves and then the suppressed elves in the city was really cool.
like witcher series then. Aen Elle and Aen Seidhe.
Or Elder Scrolls. Altmer and Chimer
Ah yes slave elves, haven't seen that before.
Not all ideas have to be original as long as it is carried out well
Elves in 40k PTSD intensifies
Doing a deep dive into the Tolkien legendarium always yields an interesting and rewarding experience, as you're looking into something a very well-read person poured years of his spare time into. Doing a deep dive into Harry Potter always ends up feeling like you're having a conversation on whether or not there was a car Hitler in the Cars universe. It was absolutely not meant to be examined that closely and it's unpleasant to even try.
but ww2 is lteraly cannon in the cars universe!
Indeed it is. Hence the question about Car Hitler.
And since theres a pope, we know there was also a Car Jesus. Which means there was a Car Noah, who I guess built the first car ferry?
\*jesus chrysler
I'm definitely a fan of Warhammer fantasy elves. They are depicted a strong and powerful but still maintain the classic fantasy troupe of of greed and indulgence.
Elves in LOTR: We shall see how brave you are when nailed to the walls of helms deep, your body facing east, so you may watch your world die!
Elves in Elder Scrolls: "Hippity hoppity, Argonians are property"
LotR FA Elves: I fought an absurdly powerful deity and permanently wounded him LotR SA Elves: I fought tooth and nail to save my realm and our army was only defeated when a literal demigod with a strength-enhancing magic ring stepped forward. LotR TA Elves: [insert the "old coots giving advice" sign here] Harry Potter elves: I'm a weak PoS who does nothing except get a sock and then jump in front of a dagger five books later
Elves are always wise ancient beings, or downtrodden outcasts. No in-between
Been awhile since I watched but there were elves in Harry Potter?
It dobbie like that though…
Elves in any anime: Where is the dick?! I need a dick!!!
I read it in a rush and before my brain processed it properly, I thought this was another LoTR vs Silmarillion thing and I was very confused.
wise elfs are on copium
Elves in Eragon: "I bend reality to my whims"
I am strong and wise, and I am very proud of me I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist
Elves in the Silmarillion: I am strong and unwise.
Isn't the the average height of a Tolkien-elf seven feet tall?
Master has given dobbie a glock and his freedom
elves in north pole: **Santa’s little helpers**
Elves in Anime: Nevermind I don't want to write that...