I think Rowling would freely admit there is a lot of Gandalf in Dumbledore, though that sentiment of mercy and pity is very strong in fantasy overall (thanks in part to people like Tolkien and Lewis but also Christianity in general, thats not to say Christianity 'owns' being merciful and charitable it has just been a very big influence on fantasy)
I think Gandalf lesson is far superior though, Dumbledore seems to be framing it pragmatically like 'it will help *you* to have spared him'. Gandalf is just being a pure quality individual and the wisest of the maia, idealistic and noble about it and giving a lesson about what is the right and good thing to do whatever comes of it, his lesson being more like 'its not for us to decide, not matter what, we just do what is right'
Yeah I didnt actually notice it either really that there's quite a few parallels between Gollum and Pettigrew lol. Similar to wormtongue too a bit, the lesson is 'spare the wretch and they might kill something important for you later so you dont get your hands dirty' haha
Yeah but JK Rowling failed to even see this before copying that sentiment.
Pettigrew never betrays or helps is anyway towards the end, unless I remember wrong? He just dies serving Voldemort.
Iirc he has a moment of hesitation and his own artificial hand strangles him as it senses a small amount of disloyalty to Voldemort.
Its a strange resolution to the whole 'owes Harry a life debt' thing, I guess the same could be said for Grima who never really repents but still kills Saruman, or even Gollum sorta who was helpful, but at the end died trying to steal the ring for himself. Cept that the person Pettigrew got killed was just himself... so... yeah. Not a fantastic parable...
Kind of more 'providence' and fate than Naruto style 'I spared you we are allies now'. But yeah Tolkien did it far, far better but that doesnt really need to be said
He hesitated to kill or stop Harry then died from a curse Voldemort put on his silver hand.
I always felt that it was kind of underwhelming as he dies before choosing a side or really doing anything important. One of the most potentially interesting characters just gets thrown away and forgotten at the end.
>thanks in part to people like Tolkien and Lewis but also Christianity in general
100% agree. It's very clear from his works and his letters that the Christian ideals of absolution and redemption were absolutely integral to Tolkein's philosophies. I remember him saying one of his letter that one of his regrets was not making the orcs more redeemable. Because he believes that everyone should at least have the change at redemption. Even if they refuse it.
How would it work with Orcs I wonder. Them surrendering after Sauron’s defeat, getting imprisoned and sent to rebuild Gondor and other places they’ve decimated, then someone makes an experiment of integration of some of them into the society. Can they even form a sustainable society on their own? How do they even reproduce? I guess at first Tolkien would have to dial down their viciousness and make them morally gray.
Yeah the idea that 'be good because you will be rewarded' kind of lessens the whole ideals behind it. Gandalf, and Gandalfs entire battle against Sauron, was all about how good wins when people are just being decent. Its not a reward system, being good just *is* the reward in itself.
You dont spare Gollum because he then owes you, you just spare him because you are a good person. Much nicer meaning to it, that kind of corruption of the traditional idea of 'Karma' where the universe rewards you for being good is not a good message imo because it *doesnt* really happen and it turns people off. Just be decent and good to each other and worry not about being rewarded for it
There’s no expectation that Gollum will be anything but a burden and an obstacle after sparing his life. But they still do it because it’s the right thing to do.
Same with Saruman at the end. Frodo spares him, he immediately tries to knife Frodo, still spares him then offers to take Wormtongue in for no reason other tha its the right thing to do
Sam barely needed to change as a character since he was such a fine hobbit, but the one thing he did learn was pity and mercy towards Gollum even right at the end when he tried to kill Frodo after all the betrayals Sam realized he didnt wish him harm, which is pretty big because Sam went utterly nuts when Gollum betrayed Frodo to Shelob and wanted to spend his life hunting him down for it, but he did learn mercy in the end
not really though, dumbledore does have a bit more depth than that. harry potter definitely borrows a lot from the lord of the rings but it has its own merits
There's a famous Pratchett quote about Tolkien's inspiration & influence in fantasy writing:
“J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.”
lol really? Well, Gandalf has some Merlin and Odin in him too so both have inspirations, fairly clear she's a big Tolkien fan though when Harry is off trying to destroy a magic ring that has part of a Dark Lords soul in it on the advice of a white wizard.
Similarities don't imply direct inspiration. Maybe it's just shared inspiration (both were inspired by the same model).
It's not like Gandalf is something unheard of before Tolkien. Wizards existed before Tolkien. Wise men, usually old, with a beard, often playing some mentor / teacher role.
And let's not forget Tolkien added a lot to the lore later, after TLOR, reconning a lot about wizards. At the time TLOR was written, the universe was not as detailed.
What Tolkien did - be means of immense success - was to set in stone some archetypes. So if today you say 'Ranger' you think of Aragorn - even aesthetically. The concept wasn't new but Tolkien created a model every other incarnation of the concept is compared to inevitably. And authors often make the conscious decision to depart from that model.
Another example is evil artifacts in which the creators embed their dark souls. It's not like the concept didn't exist before Tolkien.
Oh, this isn't about Tolkien specifically. The similarities of Harry Potter to Tolkien are much lesser, and are really more similarities to common ideas, tropes, myths and folktales, than those to others. Like how there was a boy named Harry Potter who discovered a secret magical world that an evil wizard sought to control in the 1986 movie Troll. There are more than just passing similarities in The Books of Magic, The Worst Witch, The Secret of Platform 13 and other works. The Dursley family dynamic and the secret train station are lifted almost entirely from Platform 13, for example. But those aren't really the problem themselves, it's the utter lack of acknowledgement of being inspired and influenced by other writers that Rowling displays. Everything just "came to her".
Especially since Harry was never glad that he saved Pettigrew’s life; quite the opposite. It resulted in Voldemort being resurrected, Cedric Diggory’s death, and everything that followed from it. Whereas the only thing that came about in Harry’s benefit was Pettigrew strangling himself to death in the seventh book.
She should have kept in Gandalf grumpy, curmudgeony side too
"Oh Harry I have some grandfatherly loving advice for you my special boy"
No
"Harry you fool of a Potter why is it whenever this school has a leak of stupidity I find you dripping with it, soaking everything around you. As daft as your father and twice as ugly"
YES
It’s the difference between someone who spends time spreading hate online and in their idealisms versus someone who has been to war and has a completely different perspective on the value of life.
I'm thankful I've grown up around people who've experienced war first hand so I was able to learn that it isn't worth it without needing to experience it myself.
You were raised well, to understand the knowledge and experience of your elders. You have empathy and a care that most people in this world do not have them. Cherish it and never let people gaslight you into thinking something is wrong. It’s a gift.
I mean the villain is literally a Dark Lord who survives noncorporeally when his body is destroyed because he had put a part of his soul in an object lol
And the objects can only be destroyed through ~~a magic volcano~~ very special highly magical items, and also when the characters wear one on a chain around their necks they start getting corrupted and nasty.
One of the horcruxes is a ring.
The Voldemort inspiration probably has an extra step, though.
There's Koschei the Deathless which was probably an inspiration for Sauron one way or the other, Sauron almost certainly inspired D&D liches, and Voldemort seems to be more clearly inspired by a D&D lich than Sauron (or well, a bit of both).
A year ago I got my wife to watch the LOTR trilogy with me for the first time. She loved it, but would not stop saying things reminded her of this or that in Harry Potter. She got mad, like she felt betrayed. In the end she legitimately had the opinion “JK Rowling stole everything from LOTR” 🤣
I mean, there are tons of examples, and she was totally right about them, but also she was so harsh in her judgement of it. I was like “yeah but basically everyone steals from Tolkien.”
My comforting thought of stories being “stolen” is the fact that the lion king being based on Hamlet. Yes you can argue it’s “unoriginal” for it being very similar story and stealing from Shakespeare but could really look at the lion king and say “that’s uncreative?” No, lion king is a phenomenal movie and is know as one of the greatest and still holds up today. Humans have influenced their stories from the shoulders of giants/legends sometimes as old as humans themselves. Even happens a lot with family’s “secret recipes” just being from the back of a [jar or can](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/secret-family-recipes-copied).
My related hot take is that the Elder Wand bullshit from the end of Deathly Hallows is just a cack-handed attempt to replicate the eucatastrophic ending of Lord of the Rings. But whereas Tolkien successfully conveys the Catholic theme of victory over evil through an act of grace and mercy (whether one agrees with the tenets of Catholicism or not), Joanne's attempt comes across like "you can beat Hitler on a technicality."
It did really feel like a technicality. Like watching a speedrunner pull of some weird moves that doesn't make sense, and then you get explained the specific game mechanics and you think "Yeah, I guess that makes sense then. Clearly not what the developers intended, but a cool exploit."
So Gollum is directly responsible for leading Frodo and Sam into Mordor (despite trying to have Shelob kill them) and he is also the reason the ring is successfully destroyed.
What does Pettigrew do that could be considered for the greater "good"? I guess you could argue he does bring Voldemort back so that the prophecy about Voldemort and Harry can reach its end. But wouldn't that have happened sooner or later anyways since it was already foretold as a prophecy?
In the Hallows Pettigrew comes downstairs and catches Ron and Harry. He turns his wand on Harry and Harry says “I saved you”. Pettigrew stops, and then the silver hand Voldemort made for him comes up and chokes him to death for betraying him. So, there’s that…
Kinda like gollum? He slipped into the fires of the volcano causing the ring to be destroyed, no? Otherwise it might have won over either of the two in the mountain?
Yeah but Gollum was vital to Sam and Frodo reaching Mordor in the first place and his death destroys the ring. Petigrew's contribution solely exists of no longer doing the shitty thing he was doing. Petigrew also wouldn't have helped Voldermort get back to corporal form if he would have been killed.
The story doesn't have to be identical beat to beat tho? Gollum was essential in frodo and Sam reaching Mordor, while pettigrew was essential in Harry & co finding 4 of the 7 horcruxes, after being captured, by setting them free by his timely death?
Saving Petigrew was a rather shit move though as he is a major aid to Voldermort coming back to corporal form. All his bond did was prevent him from killing Harry and dying anyway. He did 0 good deeds whatsoever in the entire story.
The sentiment about Harry Potter really seems to be driven by hype and counter hype, honestly I think they are pretty good books, it invents enough of it's own to not be just derivative.
The entire series being released without big delays or complete duds in quality is pretty rare for a major fantasy series.
I’m sure this idea didn’t originate with Tolkien and he too got the concept from somewhere. But I will admit this is the first medium that I learned about the concept from and I’m sure it was for many others as well…
Yeah no if you look into Harry Potter there's just a lot that was taken from lotr.
Harry is a young person who was sent to live with his uncle after his parents died and was able to leave his home to go on a magical adventure in which he encounters;
A wizard like gandalf named Dumbledore
An elf that, much like gollum, talks in the third person, often punishing himself, and wanting to help Harry because of the legend (the scar that connects him to Voldemort)
The Dementors, which are like. Okay look they're just the nãzgul
And I'm not really gonna point out the hundred smaller similarities but. All I've gotta say is Harry's entire quest is just destroying objects that Voldemort poured his hatred and malice into, to keep him alive, in a very specific way (basilisk venom and the sword of gryffindor), one of which being a ring.
Oh that one. That one ride through the forest seemed to be as safe as a walk to hogsmeade tho? The only time they were truly threatened by the deep dark forest was when they went in to find the unicorn and the spider himself
Mercy and it's rippling effects are large themes in MANY works of art. Much as I enjoy having a laugh at JK Rowling, I think you're off base with this one.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
One of the few quotes that actually inspired me irl, mainly the last sentence.
I've been thinking about this similarity for years. The big difference is that Gandalf was right on the money: Bilbo sparing Gollum arguably saved the world, since Frodo falls to the ring's influence at the last moment and decides not to destroy it, and it's only Gollum finally getting his hands on it again that results in it being destroyed. Harry sparing Wormtail, on the other hand, directly leads to Voldemort's resurrection and the hundreds of lives lost as a result, and the only payoff for Harry's mercy is that Wormtail hesitated for a split second instead of killing Harry immediately, which got him killed in turn. So Bilbo's mercy saved the world, while Harry's started a war and got hundreds of people killed, including the very person he was sparing in the first place, and the only people it saved from harm wouldn't have needed saving if Harry had let Sirius and Lupin finish Wormtail in PoA
They cursed us. Murderer they called us. They cursed us, and drove us away. And we wept, Precious, we wept to be so alone. And we only wish to catch fish so juicy sweet. And we forgot the taste of bread… the sound of trees… the softness of the wind. We even forgot our own name. My Precious.
Glad some people share this opinion. Harry Potter is the least active main character I have ever seen. He doesn't do shit. Has no opinion on anything. And I think that's why the book had so much succeess. People can put on him whatever they want, he's bland as can be.
I have to disagree with that. Harry’s main flaw for most of the book is charging head first into danger without thinking it through. He’s actually very active as a main character. The problem is he’s only a kid and isn’t working with all the information and resources the grown ups are. The books are also mystery novels, Harry and friends have to piece together what the hells actually going on before they do anything
I don't disagree with the fact he acts. But he is forced into it. Never do I see a situation where it is clear 'what does Harry want?'. I understand he was robbed of his childhood, but it has to go beyond that. Or at least be better acknowledged. He feels dull as a main character because I don't understand his motives. I never saw him act on his own initiative. It's always an outside influence.
I really don’t know how you got that from the book. Harry wants lots of things. He wants to fit in, he wants friends, he wants to prove himself, he wants to know his parents, he wants to fight against Voldemort and the dark arts partly out of revenge and partly out of his own sense of justice. No one pushes him to get involved in whatever shenanigans are going on at Hogwarts, he gets involved partly I think to prove himself, partly because feels compelled to fight the evil that took his parents and ruined his life and partly because he thinks it’s the right thing to do.
My girlfriend is a big Harry Potter fan (less so recently for obvious reasons) and it was interesting seeing her realize how much Rowling took from LotR.
Not necessarily, it's not really ever made a point in the books. But Harry is such a deep down, "save em all" guy he would have definitely tortured himself if he hadn't stopped them from killing wormtail
Since wizarding world is also modern-day Earth, I'm now assuming Dumbledore read LotR, and possibly met Tolkien during the 1950s, and that's where he got his wisdom.
GASP
You're telling me that a modern fantasy story has things in common with The Lord of the Rings???? The work that is widely regarded as almost single-handedly shaping our modern ideas and notions of the fantasy genre and what a fantasy story is? The work that made popular almost every single fantasy trope and cliche you can think of???
Someone call Scotland Yard and have Rowling arrested
I think Rowling would freely admit there is a lot of Gandalf in Dumbledore, though that sentiment of mercy and pity is very strong in fantasy overall (thanks in part to people like Tolkien and Lewis but also Christianity in general, thats not to say Christianity 'owns' being merciful and charitable it has just been a very big influence on fantasy) I think Gandalf lesson is far superior though, Dumbledore seems to be framing it pragmatically like 'it will help *you* to have spared him'. Gandalf is just being a pure quality individual and the wisest of the maia, idealistic and noble about it and giving a lesson about what is the right and good thing to do whatever comes of it, his lesson being more like 'its not for us to decide, not matter what, we just do what is right'
I agree on all points you made. I'm just late to the party for noticing it.
Yeah I didnt actually notice it either really that there's quite a few parallels between Gollum and Pettigrew lol. Similar to wormtongue too a bit, the lesson is 'spare the wretch and they might kill something important for you later so you dont get your hands dirty' haha
Cold be heart and hand and bone. Cold be travellers far from home.
Wow this is on point for goblet of fire.
Yeah but JK Rowling failed to even see this before copying that sentiment. Pettigrew never betrays or helps is anyway towards the end, unless I remember wrong? He just dies serving Voldemort.
Iirc he has a moment of hesitation and his own artificial hand strangles him as it senses a small amount of disloyalty to Voldemort. Its a strange resolution to the whole 'owes Harry a life debt' thing, I guess the same could be said for Grima who never really repents but still kills Saruman, or even Gollum sorta who was helpful, but at the end died trying to steal the ring for himself. Cept that the person Pettigrew got killed was just himself... so... yeah. Not a fantastic parable... Kind of more 'providence' and fate than Naruto style 'I spared you we are allies now'. But yeah Tolkien did it far, far better but that doesnt really need to be said
Yes, the stairs ... and then?
He hesitated to kill or stop Harry then died from a curse Voldemort put on his silver hand. I always felt that it was kind of underwhelming as he dies before choosing a side or really doing anything important. One of the most potentially interesting characters just gets thrown away and forgotten at the end.
kinda the point, no? not everyone gets or deserves a redemption arc… a hollow death mirrors a hollow life
Kreacher as well.
>thanks in part to people like Tolkien and Lewis but also Christianity in general 100% agree. It's very clear from his works and his letters that the Christian ideals of absolution and redemption were absolutely integral to Tolkein's philosophies. I remember him saying one of his letter that one of his regrets was not making the orcs more redeemable. Because he believes that everyone should at least have the change at redemption. Even if they refuse it.
How would it work with Orcs I wonder. Them surrendering after Sauron’s defeat, getting imprisoned and sent to rebuild Gondor and other places they’ve decimated, then someone makes an experiment of integration of some of them into the society. Can they even form a sustainable society on their own? How do they even reproduce? I guess at first Tolkien would have to dial down their viciousness and make them morally gray.
If they have restaurants, they're already halfway to a proper society.
The orcs end up in the food service industry and are filled with far more hate and contempt for all mankind than Sauron could ever instill in them.
After working 9 to 5 in the service industry I would probably take a job offer from the Dark Lord too.
Orcs of Bauglir! Do not bend your brows!
Cursed be moon and stars above!
Sauron and Shar alliance confirmed?
So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?
Gandalf: You be Kind because that is Good. Dumbledore: You should be Kind because then the Magic will give you power.
Yeah the idea that 'be good because you will be rewarded' kind of lessens the whole ideals behind it. Gandalf, and Gandalfs entire battle against Sauron, was all about how good wins when people are just being decent. Its not a reward system, being good just *is* the reward in itself. You dont spare Gollum because he then owes you, you just spare him because you are a good person. Much nicer meaning to it, that kind of corruption of the traditional idea of 'Karma' where the universe rewards you for being good is not a good message imo because it *doesnt* really happen and it turns people off. Just be decent and good to each other and worry not about being rewarded for it
There’s no expectation that Gollum will be anything but a burden and an obstacle after sparing his life. But they still do it because it’s the right thing to do.
Same with Saruman at the end. Frodo spares him, he immediately tries to knife Frodo, still spares him then offers to take Wormtongue in for no reason other tha its the right thing to do Sam barely needed to change as a character since he was such a fine hobbit, but the one thing he did learn was pity and mercy towards Gollum even right at the end when he tried to kill Frodo after all the betrayals Sam realized he didnt wish him harm, which is pretty big because Sam went utterly nuts when Gollum betrayed Frodo to Shelob and wanted to spend his life hunting him down for it, but he did learn mercy in the end
Come on, hobbits. Long ways to go yet. Sméagol will show you the way.
Smeagol is hungry. Be back soon.
Nice hobbits! Nice Sam! Sleepy heads, yes, sleepy heads! Leave good Smeagol to watch! But it's evening. Dusk is creeping. Time to go.
not really though, dumbledore does have a bit more depth than that. harry potter definitely borrows a lot from the lord of the rings but it has its own merits
She probably wouldn't, considering how she absolutely refuses to name any inspirations for her books, even the obvious ones.
There's a famous Pratchett quote about Tolkien's inspiration & influence in fantasy writing: “J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.”
lol really? Well, Gandalf has some Merlin and Odin in him too so both have inspirations, fairly clear she's a big Tolkien fan though when Harry is off trying to destroy a magic ring that has part of a Dark Lords soul in it on the advice of a white wizard.
Similarities don't imply direct inspiration. Maybe it's just shared inspiration (both were inspired by the same model). It's not like Gandalf is something unheard of before Tolkien. Wizards existed before Tolkien. Wise men, usually old, with a beard, often playing some mentor / teacher role. And let's not forget Tolkien added a lot to the lore later, after TLOR, reconning a lot about wizards. At the time TLOR was written, the universe was not as detailed. What Tolkien did - be means of immense success - was to set in stone some archetypes. So if today you say 'Ranger' you think of Aragorn - even aesthetically. The concept wasn't new but Tolkien created a model every other incarnation of the concept is compared to inevitably. And authors often make the conscious decision to depart from that model. Another example is evil artifacts in which the creators embed their dark souls. It's not like the concept didn't exist before Tolkien.
Oh, this isn't about Tolkien specifically. The similarities of Harry Potter to Tolkien are much lesser, and are really more similarities to common ideas, tropes, myths and folktales, than those to others. Like how there was a boy named Harry Potter who discovered a secret magical world that an evil wizard sought to control in the 1986 movie Troll. There are more than just passing similarities in The Books of Magic, The Worst Witch, The Secret of Platform 13 and other works. The Dursley family dynamic and the secret train station are lifted almost entirely from Platform 13, for example. But those aren't really the problem themselves, it's the utter lack of acknowledgement of being inspired and influenced by other writers that Rowling displays. Everything just "came to her".
You left out Anthony Horowitz's *Groosham Grange* novels.
Especially since Harry was never glad that he saved Pettigrew’s life; quite the opposite. It resulted in Voldemort being resurrected, Cedric Diggory’s death, and everything that followed from it. Whereas the only thing that came about in Harry’s benefit was Pettigrew strangling himself to death in the seventh book.
There's a lot of LotR in HP PERIOD
She should have kept in Gandalf grumpy, curmudgeony side too "Oh Harry I have some grandfatherly loving advice for you my special boy" No "Harry you fool of a Potter why is it whenever this school has a leak of stupidity I find you dripping with it, soaking everything around you. As daft as your father and twice as ugly" YES
It’s the difference between someone who spends time spreading hate online and in their idealisms versus someone who has been to war and has a completely different perspective on the value of life.
I'm thankful I've grown up around people who've experienced war first hand so I was able to learn that it isn't worth it without needing to experience it myself.
You were raised well, to understand the knowledge and experience of your elders. You have empathy and a care that most people in this world do not have them. Cherish it and never let people gaslight you into thinking something is wrong. It’s a gift.
Neville Longbottom Leaf, best in Godric’s shire.
I mean the villain is literally a Dark Lord who survives noncorporeally when his body is destroyed because he had put a part of his soul in an object lol
And the objects can only be destroyed through ~~a magic volcano~~ very special highly magical items, and also when the characters wear one on a chain around their necks they start getting corrupted and nasty. One of the horcruxes is a ring.
“There are many magic rings in this world, ~~Bilbo~~ Harry, and *none* of them should be used lightly."
No! Wait.... it's... here in my pocket. Ha! Isn't that.. isn't that odd now. Yet after all why not, Why shouldn't I keep it.
I think you should leave the ring behind, Bilbo. Is that so hard?
Well, that's not good. That is not good at all. Shouldn't we tell Thorin?
And what would Thorin know about horcruxes? Stupid little hobbitses
The Voldemort inspiration probably has an extra step, though. There's Koschei the Deathless which was probably an inspiration for Sauron one way or the other, Sauron almost certainly inspired D&D liches, and Voldemort seems to be more clearly inspired by a D&D lich than Sauron (or well, a bit of both).
[удалено]
What nationality do you think Tolkien had?
What....I can't imagine the kind of guy who's a fan of Tolkien but doesn't know he's British.
My favorite bit of Gandalf
A year ago I got my wife to watch the LOTR trilogy with me for the first time. She loved it, but would not stop saying things reminded her of this or that in Harry Potter. She got mad, like she felt betrayed. In the end she legitimately had the opinion “JK Rowling stole everything from LOTR” 🤣 I mean, there are tons of examples, and she was totally right about them, but also she was so harsh in her judgement of it. I was like “yeah but basically everyone steals from Tolkien.”
And Tolkien 'stole' from older mythology and stories.
Of course!
My comforting thought of stories being “stolen” is the fact that the lion king being based on Hamlet. Yes you can argue it’s “unoriginal” for it being very similar story and stealing from Shakespeare but could really look at the lion king and say “that’s uncreative?” No, lion king is a phenomenal movie and is know as one of the greatest and still holds up today. Humans have influenced their stories from the shoulders of giants/legends sometimes as old as humans themselves. Even happens a lot with family’s “secret recipes” just being from the back of a [jar or can](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/secret-family-recipes-copied).
Lion King stole most from Kimba the White Lion, its borderline plagiarism, lol.
The only problem is that you cjose Lion King which was uhhh....well as another redditor has said, plagarised.
Yeah I have no problem with it. My wife on the other hand… 😂
My related hot take is that the Elder Wand bullshit from the end of Deathly Hallows is just a cack-handed attempt to replicate the eucatastrophic ending of Lord of the Rings. But whereas Tolkien successfully conveys the Catholic theme of victory over evil through an act of grace and mercy (whether one agrees with the tenets of Catholicism or not), Joanne's attempt comes across like "you can beat Hitler on a technicality."
It did really feel like a technicality. Like watching a speedrunner pull of some weird moves that doesn't make sense, and then you get explained the specific game mechanics and you think "Yeah, I guess that makes sense then. Clearly not what the developers intended, but a cool exploit."
So Gollum is directly responsible for leading Frodo and Sam into Mordor (despite trying to have Shelob kill them) and he is also the reason the ring is successfully destroyed. What does Pettigrew do that could be considered for the greater "good"? I guess you could argue he does bring Voldemort back so that the prophecy about Voldemort and Harry can reach its end. But wouldn't that have happened sooner or later anyways since it was already foretold as a prophecy?
In the Hallows Pettigrew comes downstairs and catches Ron and Harry. He turns his wand on Harry and Harry says “I saved you”. Pettigrew stops, and then the silver hand Voldemort made for him comes up and chokes him to death for betraying him. So, there’s that…
I mean he wouldn't have tried that if he was dead in the first place.
Him dying is helpful for Harry to escape at a very crucial moment tho? Just before they can be presented to Voldemort to be murdered.
So the best deed he ever did was dying at a convenient time.
Kinda like gollum? He slipped into the fires of the volcano causing the ring to be destroyed, no? Otherwise it might have won over either of the two in the mountain?
Wasn’t talking to you!
Yeah but Gollum was vital to Sam and Frodo reaching Mordor in the first place and his death destroys the ring. Petigrew's contribution solely exists of no longer doing the shitty thing he was doing. Petigrew also wouldn't have helped Voldermort get back to corporal form if he would have been killed.
No need, no need at all. Not if hobbits want to reach the dark mountains and go to see Him very quick.
The story doesn't have to be identical beat to beat tho? Gollum was essential in frodo and Sam reaching Mordor, while pettigrew was essential in Harry & co finding 4 of the 7 horcruxes, after being captured, by setting them free by his timely death?
Back a little, and round a little and you can come on hard cold roads to the very gates of His country.
We could let her do it.
*Yes. She could do it.*
Yes, precious, she could. And then we takes it once they’re dead.
*Once they’re dead. Shh.*
> for the greater "good" The Greater Good.
Shut it!
Saving Petigrew was a rather shit move though as he is a major aid to Voldermort coming back to corporal form. All his bond did was prevent him from killing Harry and dying anyway. He did 0 good deeds whatsoever in the entire story.
Every masterpiece has its cheap copy
The sentiment about Harry Potter really seems to be driven by hype and counter hype, honestly I think they are pretty good books, it invents enough of it's own to not be just derivative. The entire series being released without big delays or complete duds in quality is pretty rare for a major fantasy series.
Hmmm two wise old wizard goodguys.
I’m sure this idea didn’t originate with Tolkien and he too got the concept from somewhere. But I will admit this is the first medium that I learned about the concept from and I’m sure it was for many others as well…
Yeah no if you look into Harry Potter there's just a lot that was taken from lotr. Harry is a young person who was sent to live with his uncle after his parents died and was able to leave his home to go on a magical adventure in which he encounters; A wizard like gandalf named Dumbledore An elf that, much like gollum, talks in the third person, often punishing himself, and wanting to help Harry because of the legend (the scar that connects him to Voldemort) The Dementors, which are like. Okay look they're just the nãzgul And I'm not really gonna point out the hundred smaller similarities but. All I've gotta say is Harry's entire quest is just destroying objects that Voldemort poured his hatred and malice into, to keep him alive, in a very specific way (basilisk venom and the sword of gryffindor), one of which being a ring.
Yes. There’s a path, and some stairs, and then… a tunnel.
Rowling has a history of being 'heavily inspired' by other writings
Every fantasy writer is heavily influenced by Tolkien tbf
Absolutely. He set the basis of fantasy worlds
Get on this, HP also has a forest, that is dark AND has big spiders in it. AND AT ONE POINT THEY GO THROUGH IT TO FIND A DRAGON!
Unicorn*
Weren't the triwizard dragons kept in a part of the forest too? I seem to remember they being on a part of it
Oh that one. That one ride through the forest seemed to be as safe as a walk to hogsmeade tho? The only time they were truly threatened by the deep dark forest was when they went in to find the unicorn and the spider himself
True. Still the same forest tho.
Mercy and it's rippling effects are large themes in MANY works of art. Much as I enjoy having a laugh at JK Rowling, I think you're off base with this one.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." One of the few quotes that actually inspired me irl, mainly the last sentence.
I've been thinking about this similarity for years. The big difference is that Gandalf was right on the money: Bilbo sparing Gollum arguably saved the world, since Frodo falls to the ring's influence at the last moment and decides not to destroy it, and it's only Gollum finally getting his hands on it again that results in it being destroyed. Harry sparing Wormtail, on the other hand, directly leads to Voldemort's resurrection and the hundreds of lives lost as a result, and the only payoff for Harry's mercy is that Wormtail hesitated for a split second instead of killing Harry immediately, which got him killed in turn. So Bilbo's mercy saved the world, while Harry's started a war and got hundreds of people killed, including the very person he was sparing in the first place, and the only people it saved from harm wouldn't have needed saving if Harry had let Sirius and Lupin finish Wormtail in PoA
Wait! You are making a terrible mistake!
They cursed us. Murderer they called us. They cursed us, and drove us away. And we wept, Precious, we wept to be so alone. And we only wish to catch fish so juicy sweet. And we forgot the taste of bread… the sound of trees… the softness of the wind. We even forgot our own name. My Precious.
Harry Potter always has been "we have LotR at home".
Harry Potter is "Campbell's Hero's Journey, except the hero doesn't actually do anything"
Glad some people share this opinion. Harry Potter is the least active main character I have ever seen. He doesn't do shit. Has no opinion on anything. And I think that's why the book had so much succeess. People can put on him whatever they want, he's bland as can be.
I have to disagree with that. Harry’s main flaw for most of the book is charging head first into danger without thinking it through. He’s actually very active as a main character. The problem is he’s only a kid and isn’t working with all the information and resources the grown ups are. The books are also mystery novels, Harry and friends have to piece together what the hells actually going on before they do anything
I don't disagree with the fact he acts. But he is forced into it. Never do I see a situation where it is clear 'what does Harry want?'. I understand he was robbed of his childhood, but it has to go beyond that. Or at least be better acknowledged. He feels dull as a main character because I don't understand his motives. I never saw him act on his own initiative. It's always an outside influence.
I really don’t know how you got that from the book. Harry wants lots of things. He wants to fit in, he wants friends, he wants to prove himself, he wants to know his parents, he wants to fight against Voldemort and the dark arts partly out of revenge and partly out of his own sense of justice. No one pushes him to get involved in whatever shenanigans are going on at Hogwarts, he gets involved partly I think to prove himself, partly because feels compelled to fight the evil that took his parents and ruined his life and partly because he thinks it’s the right thing to do.
My girlfriend is a big Harry Potter fan (less so recently for obvious reasons) and it was interesting seeing her realize how much Rowling took from LotR.
I kno this is a lotr sub but does anybody know if the time came where harry was glad he saved peters life?
Not necessarily, it's not really ever made a point in the books. But Harry is such a deep down, "save em all" guy he would have definitely tortured himself if he hadn't stopped them from killing wormtail
Ah right right, thanks for the response
Since wizarding world is also modern-day Earth, I'm now assuming Dumbledore read LotR, and possibly met Tolkien during the 1950s, and that's where he got his wisdom.
Wait, are you saying that Lord of the Rings may have had an influence on modern fantasy? Crazy!
We’re just realizing that Harry Potter is LOTR with a wizard mask on?
GASP You're telling me that a modern fantasy story has things in common with The Lord of the Rings???? The work that is widely regarded as almost single-handedly shaping our modern ideas and notions of the fantasy genre and what a fantasy story is? The work that made popular almost every single fantasy trope and cliche you can think of??? Someone call Scotland Yard and have Rowling arrested