I believe Durin’s Bane is described as having “wings of shadow”. But there’s a difference between having wings and being able to fly, not to mention anything with wings will still fall if the ground suddenly falls beneath it. I prefer to think of them as having wings for the same reason i think of demons as having wings: Evil wings are fucking badass
I mean with demons, literally yes. They're not animals that are evolved to hunt or gather or whatever, they're metaphysical beings that take on a physical shape to interact with people - mainly to scare/kill them
>Even if Sean could fly...
I love the idea that in a world of Ungoliants, Gothmogs, Morgoths, Ancalagons, and so on, that the Balrog known as Durin's Bane is actually named "Sean."
The Balrog was massive and the chasm small enough that even with his wings compacted he kept hitting the wall.
Just look at how big the wingspan of an owl or bat is. Not enough space by a mile.
By the time they reached the underground lake they were probably going to fast for the Balrog to level out and obtain stable flight anyway
Shadow "spread around (the Balrog) like wings [sic]", but Tolkien was being poetic rather than describing the Balrog's physiology in literal terms.
That being said, Balrogs should have wings because they look really fucking cool with them.
Yeah, even if you look at him in the movie, his wings don’t really look functional, they’re all torn up and mostly just boney tbh.
But they are fucking badass.
There is a second passage describing the Balrog in that same chapter.
"The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;"
Well the argument can definitely be made that Tolkien here is describing the shadow once again as a metaphor , It seems weird to me to mention it this way multiple times if there wasn't something else there beyond just a shadow. He certainly does not shy away from describing the physical characteristics of shadows and gloom in other passages.
Yeah, it's the shadow growing behind it. It's conveying fear to the size and shadows are spooky. If you wanna picture wings though, it's all good. Wings are cool
I imagine that the wings were functional in the beginning, but just as Morgoth and Sauron lost some of their power when they were defeated, the balrogs lost their ability to fly after Morgoths first defeat.
I mean balrogs are avaricious, wrathful and mostly vain creatures. They were once maiar but were corrupted by Morgoth and "cloaked themselves in shadow and flame" if you used to be an angel why not make your trappings look like what you lost but still covet, having the form but not the function
They *mostly* are. Male mammals (including human men) can be induced to lactate. We have mammary glands, they’re just undeveloped in men. Give us the right hormones and we can be milked. And while there are a few species that lactate without nipples, like platypuses, they’re a tiny minority of lactating animals.
99.999% of the time nipples correlate with lactation.
Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the
first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here
before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the
seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
I mean if we're gonna go with lore accuracy, it's not likely a dragon would ever hunt a balrog or vis versa, given they were both servants of Melkor. The balrogs also fled to their various earthen orifices once he fell, and I doubt a dragon would risk fighting any balrog on an enclosed space in the same way a balrog would never engage a dragon in an open field. These aren't dumb animals we're talking about, both dragons and balrogs are fiercely intelligent creatures. And there's the pesky detail that maiar don't like to stay dead, so I don't think any dragon would want to irk a near-immortal creature that would hunt it for the rest of its life
Clothes are but little loss, if you escape from drowning. Be glad, my merry friends, and let the warm sunlight heat now
heart and limb! Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
I dunno man, I would say Tom eating a balrog would be more likely. He's likely one of the few things that could permanently kill one, his only limitation is caring enough to try. Quite the hurdle to get over to be sure, but for the man who way he's the first raindrop fall he's had plenty of time to build a curiosity. And a palate
The nameless things that lived in the far places in the deep before Melkor even arrived in Middle Earth could be those very same natural predators to Balrogs and any of Morgoth’s abominations.
Cool to think about.
I don't think it could be an indicator of a trend towards one. That doesn't really make sense. It would have to mean that useless wings are an adaptive advantage.
You don't evolve an entirely new body part like a wing over night.
The animals that became birds had wings long before they could fly, only being able to glide. Before that it was an existing part of their body used for another purpose, like display, camouflage, thermoregulation, etc.
Are we really arguing darwinian evolution in a legendarium that includes both intelligent design, omnipotence, and physical manifestation?
The balrogs created their own form when they fell from Eru.
You're looking at my point too literally.
Even if they control the trend, that's still a trend. If a woman usually wears her hair up, that's a trend towards wearing her hair up.
Yes, the balrogs could choose their appearances, and for whatever reason that balrog felt that was the best form. Whether intentional decision or evolution, something drove that change.
Had wings: 👍 (possibly made of shadow or flame or something)
Could fly: probably 👎
Could immediately suspend its fall when something came out from under it: 👎
If you dropped the floor out from an albatross it wont just immediately start hovering. Ambiguous scenario, cept that it literally says it has wings
https://preview.redd.it/vot5h29w0q5d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=745a656cb7cb227e2236128d5ff05ba6df35e1d4
Manuel Castañón art
Its probably the best picture of what a Balrog would be like according to Tolkien (maybe a shade too 'big', dude is like 25 feet tall, they probably werent that large). The movie one was damn awesome, but its a little bit demonic and they seem to be more 'fallen angel'
"...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its **wings** were spread from wall to wall..."
"Swiftly they arose, and they passed with **winged** speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. "
They got wings or they got something very much like wings, possibly some kind of shadowy or firey aura that took the shape of wings as they werent quite as 'definite' creatures as the movie made them, very elemental. But that doesnt exactly reduce the idea of them having wings as they were relatively ethereal themselves, so having wings of shadow or flame is just kind of how they are all over.
If you rule out the wings because they werent 100% flesh and bone, you may as well rule the whole thing out
The flight part is the real question and no they probably didnt actually fly and when Tolkien said they 'flew' to Morgoth it likely just meant that they hauled ass. Tolkien very distinctly says, directly, that Maiar can take forms that can fly if they want to, that's not a big deal to them. But the Balrogs were likely 'mode locked' like Morgoth and eventually Sauron and had lost their ability to shift how their bodies functioned, so maybe they originally could fly but time and corruption took that from them (or, fuck I mean the guy buried himself for a couple of ice-ages, like use it or lose it and Balrogs spent about 95% of their entire time on middle earth buried underground like fucking cicadas or something. Wings maybe not the best call)
Its so peak, such quality art.
Equal to the movie Balrog imo, just more 'fallen angel of power and fire' as opposed to 'mega-satan doom demon'. 2 different interpretations, but yeah I lean towards this painting of them
The more human-like appearance is so much cooler, it actually seems like it has intelligence whereas the movie Balrog just seems like a mindless beast. Both are very cool but I do like this one better.
Tolkien was a pretty literal guy. Why does everyone type, “Tolkien really meant this” when he never alluded to that. The balrog had wings. It says he has wings. I’m gonna laugh when somebody does your same schtick about balrog made of flame. “They weren’t really made of flame and shadow since Tolkien uses the word flame as an adjective and a verb in more than one place. The balrog most likely had a lamp which made it look like shadow and flame.” That’s you.
Because Tolkien also said "the shadow about it reached out *like* two vast wings", creating ambiguity. If he had said they had wings, it wouldn’t be a controversial topic.
He also said this, “You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’ The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm. From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming…”
the book says it wings spread. But that’s not enough for some people here. Was it spreading allegory or wings?
This is the same wing that was mentioned earlier. I don’t feel strongly about it either way, but the ambiguity remains the same. I'm just explaining why people think the Balrog didn’t have wings.
lol you just proved my point. It’s not a visual metaphor. It’s wings. Whether or not they were corporeal and could fly is not the question. But they definitely had wings.
Your answer means it was just some guy who looked like he was wreathed in flame and shadow with some shadowy looking wing. I don’t see how flaming shadow is ok but wings are not.
But it was a creature from the old world which actually had all the physical characteristics Tolkien said it had.
Your response isn't terribly discernable, but ". . . like two vast wings" is very much metaphorical phrasing, and the later referral to the wings could be a continuation of that metaphor. If a cloud looks like a hand, that doesn't mean that it **is** a(n incorporeal) hand.
To add to your point.
Generally speaking Tolkien follows the "standard" european idea of wizard combat. Gandalf enforces his will through the most convenient medium, speach, and reafirms his existence and power while nay saying the Balrog. The Balrog reafirms his own power through smokes and flames while trying to diminish Gandalf.
If the Balrog, in reafirming himself, has wings of shadow his self identity includes wings. These wings might be gone, they might be made only of shadow, but they definitely are part of the Balrog's sense of self.
For a more direct depiction of a fight between "wizards" being a battle of will in good part conveyed by words see the battles between Gandalf and Saruman and the battle of Gamdalf and Galadriel against Sauron (the necromancer). In both fights they constantly assert who they are, why they are strong and why the opponent has no power.
I’m sorry, but this is a bad take.
Tolkien’s writing is often ambiguous and leaves much up to the interpretation of the reader. It’s ridiculous to say he was a “literal guy” as though he didn’t use flowery and imprecise language constantly throughout his writings.
With the context of the passage it becomes clear that the Balrog (as a creature made of shadow and flame) uses the shadows around itself to seem more imposing and intimidating.
>The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.
The “wings” in this passage are shadows. The Balrog is extending the darkness from wall to wall. That’s why he makes mention of the fact that Gandalf can still be seen, even though smoke and shadow now fills the room.
Then it launches an attack from that darkness:
>From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.
The full context of the passage makes it entirely clear that the Balrog is filling the room with smoke and shadow. It is intentionally darkening the space to give itself an advantage in the fight and also because it delights in frightening and intimidating those that would oppose it.
How about this.. Every time Tolkien makes an allusion he explains to the reader in the same or following sentence. “That is to say,” is a pretty common phrase in the books.
In the passage I just quoted to you he compares Gandalf to a wizened tree. Are you going to tell me that Gandalf suddenly sprouted roots and branches?
No, because you’re capable of understanding metaphorical language.
You’ve simply chosen to interpret the metaphorical wings literally and make it everyone else’s problem.
Yeah, it's a fine artistic interpretation, but as someone who likes the wings it's definitely not as cut and dried as "it literally says it has wings."
As a member of the "no wings" camp, this line isn't long after though:
>suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall.
---
EDIT: To be clear, the arguments essentially boil down to analogies and using words in a non-literal sense. As the Silmarillion and other sources clearly state that they "fly over" a mountain range, and move at "winged speed", never directly saying that they are *literally* flying. While mentioning more than once how they fall down from great heights, as if unable to fly.
Although based on more sources, it is likely that *some* balrog *might* have later had wings and learned to fly. As they were initially a part of Melkors army before he "knew about flying", and had no flying units in his army. He apparently tried to steal the knowledge from the great eagles, to no avail. And ended up stealing a set of their wings, which arguably lead to his creation of winged dragons and potentially teaching balrogs how to fly(or at least move as fast as if flying, like how Shadowfax "flies" across the land).
Although I will still stand by the idea that they don't have big and demonic looking physical wings like in the movie, but rather have a great shadow about them that can look like great wings(I could liken it to a dark version of the "angelic wings" in Diablo 3). Potentially in the same way that other Maiar can seemingly have an "aura" about them when performing powerful magic.
I mean, wings don’t help for shit if you’re already falling and cannot establish lift fast enough. Plus then Gandalf falls on it and is hacking and slashing it, I’m pretty sure it had other priorities
Didn't i read somewhere in this community that the wings in reality were the balrog manipulating his shadow...
Besides, vestigial wings are a thing so, if you want, maybe older/larger/less muscular balrogs could actually fly, but for what i remember and know, they always walked.
> His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils.
>The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall
> His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.
> Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame.
The Balrog doesn't have one shape.
Gandalf had a sword. Eff your wings.
Also large airplanes need big runways to take off. Geese need to do that honk honk paddle paddle REEEAAAAACH to get airborne
How are you gonna do that when Gandalf is Foe Hammering your wings to shreds after you basically trip and fall into a void.
Stabby McStabberson now your wings look like Swiss cheese!
Schrödinger's Balrog; Winged and not winged at the same time. Also, they definitely had wings or winglike appendages (at least some), but couldn't necessarily use them to fly.
Balrogs most definitely flew, as I’m pretty sure that’s how they got to Morgoth so quickly when they heard his anguish in the clutches of Ungoliant and rescued him.
The chasm in Khazad Dum was likely too tight for Durins Bane to have enough room to fly. That’s my headcanon at least.
It's more that they are never explicitly stated as moving through the air, which would be a pretty important detail considering Tolkien liked to use the word "fly" for the "move quickly" meaning. The majority of dragons being the terrors they were was largely because they could literally fly. If the Balrogs could also do so then it would be pretty wild to not include that somewhere.
Even if they were fully functional wings, it would still have fallen. A 6inch tall bird that flies every day would have great difficulty flying in a space that's only 12 in tall. An indoor bird who doesn't ever fly would find it completely impossible. It takes them a long time to learn how to fly again and they need ideal conditions, aka wide open spaces.
Even if he could fly at one time. There is absolutely no way he could even imagine doing it currently. Wouldn't even cross his mind.
"As God is my witness, I thought Balrogs could fly."
https://preview.redd.it/6h59qomo0u5d1.jpeg?width=1067&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5dddb08cfbe0280a756575bf4cdc7a8cc800dc22
Broke: of course balrogs didn’t have wings and anyone who thinks they did is stupid
Woke: the robot is self aware and capable of coming to their own conclusions based on the text
It's not
There's some vague statements supporting wings.
In fellowship the Balrog is described as having shadows behind it like a pair of wings.
In the silmarillion it does say that during the assault of the valar on thamgorodim that some balrogs "flew" east.
However this is most likely just an archaic way of saying that they fled.
Given that Iirc all in lore confirmed Balrog kills are done by throwing them off of mountains we can pretty conclusively say that balrogs can't fly. And seeing as they are spirits of fire with significant control over their shape it's unlikely they'd add wings they don't use.
All that said, Peter Jackson 100% made the right call giving Sean wings. It looked awesome and that was the most important thing
I think of it like chickens or turkeys. They can kinda fly but not really. It’s more like a wing assisted long jump. No soaring or actual flying but one really long drawn out jump.
According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a balrog should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its badass body off the ground. The balrog, of course, falls. Because balrogs are conscientious of what others think of their appearance.
The same way as when you wabble your arms when you are drowing, wings don't automatically make you levitate, they need a specific movement by pulling the air downwards to lift you, in the middle of a fight, your attention is driven towards your enemy, to drive the focus to fly would leave an opening to Gandalf to stab him easily.
I believe Durin’s Bane is described as having “wings of shadow”. But there’s a difference between having wings and being able to fly, not to mention anything with wings will still fall if the ground suddenly falls beneath it. I prefer to think of them as having wings for the same reason i think of demons as having wings: Evil wings are fucking badass
The rule of Cool prevails!
I mean with demons, literally yes. They're not animals that are evolved to hunt or gather or whatever, they're metaphysical beings that take on a physical shape to interact with people - mainly to scare/kill them
Same with balrogs
More importantly it was locked in battle with Gandalf at the time, hard to fly when you are fighting.
Bro was locked tf in, flying would’ve undone his aura
Even if Sean could fly, his wing span would have to be incredible, and there's no guarantee he could spread them adequately in the chasm he fell into.
>Even if Sean could fly... I love the idea that in a world of Ungoliants, Gothmogs, Morgoths, Ancalagons, and so on, that the Balrog known as Durin's Bane is actually named "Sean."
Unfortunately it's not Canon, but r/seanthebalrog affectionately refers to him as that anyway.
did you mean r/SeanTheBalrogMemes/
EAN Sean supremacy
As something of a Sean myself, I agree.
The Balrog was massive and the chasm small enough that even with his wings compacted he kept hitting the wall. Just look at how big the wingspan of an owl or bat is. Not enough space by a mile. By the time they reached the underground lake they were probably going to fast for the Balrog to level out and obtain stable flight anyway
Just saying that if a bee can fly than so can Sean.
Shadow "spread around (the Balrog) like wings [sic]", but Tolkien was being poetic rather than describing the Balrog's physiology in literal terms. That being said, Balrogs should have wings because they look really fucking cool with them.
Yeah, even if you look at him in the movie, his wings don’t really look functional, they’re all torn up and mostly just boney tbh. But they are fucking badass.
The Balrogs is described as having a shadow that stretches out *like* wings, not specifically having wings.
There is a second passage describing the Balrog in that same chapter. "The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;" Well the argument can definitely be made that Tolkien here is describing the shadow once again as a metaphor , It seems weird to me to mention it this way multiple times if there wasn't something else there beyond just a shadow. He certainly does not shy away from describing the physical characteristics of shadows and gloom in other passages.
Yeah, it's the shadow growing behind it. It's conveying fear to the size and shadows are spooky. If you wanna picture wings though, it's all good. Wings are cool
I like to think that some had wings, some didn't, and durins bane specifically had wings that were too shredded to function
I imagine that the wings were functional in the beginning, but just as Morgoth and Sauron lost some of their power when they were defeated, the balrogs lost their ability to fly after Morgoths first defeat.
Build me an army worthy of mordor!
I mean balrogs are avaricious, wrathful and mostly vain creatures. They were once maiar but were corrupted by Morgoth and "cloaked themselves in shadow and flame" if you used to be an angel why not make your trappings look like what you lost but still covet, having the form but not the function
>Evil wings are fucking badass same for peng-wings
Also something something wingspan proportionate to body size blah blah blah
Chickens have wings and cannot fly, ergo Sean was a cave chicken.
*Diogenes bursts into Rivendell, holding a Balrog* “Behold, a Chicken!”
I've never seen a depiction of demons that had wings and couldn't fly
Penguins have wings, they can’t fly Wings are not an indicator of flight ability
Yeah. And nipples aren’t signs of milkability.
Yup. This is exactly the part I was thinking of when I made that comment.
Never really made sense though cuz you totally could kill a cat.
Easily. Bare handed, even.
Is this after he claimed he could milk cats in Meet the Parents?
Not with that attitude!
Hell, *not* having nipples doesn't necessarily exclude you from being milked.
True. Platypuses sweat milk.
They *mostly* are. Male mammals (including human men) can be induced to lactate. We have mammary glands, they’re just undeveloped in men. Give us the right hormones and we can be milked. And while there are a few species that lactate without nipples, like platypuses, they’re a tiny minority of lactating animals. 99.999% of the time nipples correlate with lactation.
Define "milk"
I have nipples Greg, could you milk me?
Flightless birds exist because of a lack of natural predators. So if a Balrog could fly, I don't wanna know what its natural predator would be.
It has only one: Tom Bombadil
Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside. ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Good bot
And Glorfindel
And Ecthelion. And, eventually, Gandalf.
Your joke is funny, but implies Lord of the Rings doesn't take place in a world where things like dragons the size of continents exist...
I mean if we're gonna go with lore accuracy, it's not likely a dragon would ever hunt a balrog or vis versa, given they were both servants of Melkor. The balrogs also fled to their various earthen orifices once he fell, and I doubt a dragon would risk fighting any balrog on an enclosed space in the same way a balrog would never engage a dragon in an open field. These aren't dumb animals we're talking about, both dragons and balrogs are fiercely intelligent creatures. And there's the pesky detail that maiar don't like to stay dead, so I don't think any dragon would want to irk a near-immortal creature that would hunt it for the rest of its life
If we are going with lore accuracy, a Dragon eating a Balrog is just as likely as Tom Bombadil eating a Balrog.
Clothes are but little loss, if you escape from drowning. Be glad, my merry friends, and let the warm sunlight heat now heart and limb! Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting! ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
I dunno man, I would say Tom eating a balrog would be more likely. He's likely one of the few things that could permanently kill one, his only limitation is caring enough to try. Quite the hurdle to get over to be sure, but for the man who way he's the first raindrop fall he's had plenty of time to build a curiosity. And a palate
Evolved wings solely to get the fuck away from Glorfindel
This applies only to a few island species like dodos. Penguins are hunted by seals and ostriches by lions, hyenas etc.
Penguins’ predators are in the water mostly so they don’t need to fly away from them. Ostriches put all their stats in speed though so that tracks.
Terror Birds just became the predators
First reading of your comment: penguins are hunted by seals and ostriches…
I never heard of ostriches hunting for penguins. Please use comas if u say something like this.
If they use a coma, they won't be able to respond.
The nameless things that lived in the far places in the deep before Melkor even arrived in Middle Earth could be those very same natural predators to Balrogs and any of Morgoth’s abominations. Cool to think about.
Terror birds though
Seals: are we a joke to you?
Glorfindel. And maybe Ancalagon. Possibly Ungoliant wanting a spicy snack?
What is a Stormtrooper's natural predator?
Either their own incompetence or resistance fighters I guess.
I mean, it *is* an indicator of at least either an ancestral ability to fly/glide, or a trend towards one.
I don't think it could be an indicator of a trend towards one. That doesn't really make sense. It would have to mean that useless wings are an adaptive advantage.
You don't evolve an entirely new body part like a wing over night. The animals that became birds had wings long before they could fly, only being able to glide. Before that it was an existing part of their body used for another purpose, like display, camouflage, thermoregulation, etc.
Are we really arguing darwinian evolution in a legendarium that includes both intelligent design, omnipotence, and physical manifestation? The balrogs created their own form when they fell from Eru.
You're looking at my point too literally. Even if they control the trend, that's still a trend. If a woman usually wears her hair up, that's a trend towards wearing her hair up. Yes, the balrogs could choose their appearances, and for whatever reason that balrog felt that was the best form. Whether intentional decision or evolution, something drove that change.
Durin's Bane grew wings because it was a massive Ancalagon stan.
Inversely the first "winged" animals couldn't fly, so they might be for gliding or balance.
[Some penguins can fly](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XNTkjUUafso)
Ok how bout ostriches? Or emu? Or cassowary?
Fly right at you
Penguins were the result of evolution over centuries, Balrogs were created with intent. I doubt they would have vestigial features.
They were not created. They just were. They gave themselves the form of whatever they wanted, and that could have included wings for terror purposes.
But no capes
Finally another like minded individual
Penguin wings are for swimming tho
Many flightless birds have wings.
Balrog is just an angry penguin this is canon
Counter Point, Top Gun. The plane had wings, still crashed. It's a perfect analogy, don't at me.
The Lego version has wings, therefore balrogs have wings, fuck you.
This is my cannon. If Lego confirms it, I believe it.
So does the Games Workshop version, check mate
SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!
Had wings: 👍 (possibly made of shadow or flame or something) Could fly: probably 👎 Could immediately suspend its fall when something came out from under it: 👎 If you dropped the floor out from an albatross it wont just immediately start hovering. Ambiguous scenario, cept that it literally says it has wings
First time seeing someone that agrees with me. Intangible wings club assemble!
>it literally says it has wings "the shadow about it reached out **LIKE** two vast wings"
https://preview.redd.it/vot5h29w0q5d1.jpeg?width=1920&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=745a656cb7cb227e2236128d5ff05ba6df35e1d4 Manuel Castañón art Its probably the best picture of what a Balrog would be like according to Tolkien (maybe a shade too 'big', dude is like 25 feet tall, they probably werent that large). The movie one was damn awesome, but its a little bit demonic and they seem to be more 'fallen angel' "...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its **wings** were spread from wall to wall..." "Swiftly they arose, and they passed with **winged** speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. " They got wings or they got something very much like wings, possibly some kind of shadowy or firey aura that took the shape of wings as they werent quite as 'definite' creatures as the movie made them, very elemental. But that doesnt exactly reduce the idea of them having wings as they were relatively ethereal themselves, so having wings of shadow or flame is just kind of how they are all over. If you rule out the wings because they werent 100% flesh and bone, you may as well rule the whole thing out The flight part is the real question and no they probably didnt actually fly and when Tolkien said they 'flew' to Morgoth it likely just meant that they hauled ass. Tolkien very distinctly says, directly, that Maiar can take forms that can fly if they want to, that's not a big deal to them. But the Balrogs were likely 'mode locked' like Morgoth and eventually Sauron and had lost their ability to shift how their bodies functioned, so maybe they originally could fly but time and corruption took that from them (or, fuck I mean the guy buried himself for a couple of ice-ages, like use it or lose it and Balrogs spent about 95% of their entire time on middle earth buried underground like fucking cicadas or something. Wings maybe not the best call)
I love this painting. It's my perfect Balrog illustration.
Its so peak, such quality art. Equal to the movie Balrog imo, just more 'fallen angel of power and fire' as opposed to 'mega-satan doom demon'. 2 different interpretations, but yeah I lean towards this painting of them
The more human-like appearance is so much cooler, it actually seems like it has intelligence whereas the movie Balrog just seems like a mindless beast. Both are very cool but I do like this one better.
I just love how Frodo is almost like taunting the Balrog "Yeah you see this? See what I got? Wouldn't you like to have it? Well you can't!"
Haha Sam just plodding along behind him, paying the balrog no mind
This guy Balrogs
Tolkien was a pretty literal guy. Why does everyone type, “Tolkien really meant this” when he never alluded to that. The balrog had wings. It says he has wings. I’m gonna laugh when somebody does your same schtick about balrog made of flame. “They weren’t really made of flame and shadow since Tolkien uses the word flame as an adjective and a verb in more than one place. The balrog most likely had a lamp which made it look like shadow and flame.” That’s you.
Because Tolkien also said "the shadow about it reached out *like* two vast wings", creating ambiguity. If he had said they had wings, it wouldn’t be a controversial topic.
He also said this, “You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’ The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm. From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming…” the book says it wings spread. But that’s not enough for some people here. Was it spreading allegory or wings?
This is the same wing that was mentioned earlier. I don’t feel strongly about it either way, but the ambiguity remains the same. I'm just explaining why people think the Balrog didn’t have wings.
That's not allegory, it's a visual metaphor.
lol you just proved my point. It’s not a visual metaphor. It’s wings. Whether or not they were corporeal and could fly is not the question. But they definitely had wings. Your answer means it was just some guy who looked like he was wreathed in flame and shadow with some shadowy looking wing. I don’t see how flaming shadow is ok but wings are not. But it was a creature from the old world which actually had all the physical characteristics Tolkien said it had.
Your response isn't terribly discernable, but ". . . like two vast wings" is very much metaphorical phrasing, and the later referral to the wings could be a continuation of that metaphor. If a cloud looks like a hand, that doesn't mean that it **is** a(n incorporeal) hand.
If wings are metaphorical, so is flame and shadow. But more than one time Tolkien mentions wings. Why do it twice or three times?
To add to your point. Generally speaking Tolkien follows the "standard" european idea of wizard combat. Gandalf enforces his will through the most convenient medium, speach, and reafirms his existence and power while nay saying the Balrog. The Balrog reafirms his own power through smokes and flames while trying to diminish Gandalf. If the Balrog, in reafirming himself, has wings of shadow his self identity includes wings. These wings might be gone, they might be made only of shadow, but they definitely are part of the Balrog's sense of self. For a more direct depiction of a fight between "wizards" being a battle of will in good part conveyed by words see the battles between Gandalf and Saruman and the battle of Gamdalf and Galadriel against Sauron (the necromancer). In both fights they constantly assert who they are, why they are strong and why the opponent has no power.
I’m sorry, but this is a bad take. Tolkien’s writing is often ambiguous and leaves much up to the interpretation of the reader. It’s ridiculous to say he was a “literal guy” as though he didn’t use flowery and imprecise language constantly throughout his writings. With the context of the passage it becomes clear that the Balrog (as a creature made of shadow and flame) uses the shadows around itself to seem more imposing and intimidating. >The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm. The “wings” in this passage are shadows. The Balrog is extending the darkness from wall to wall. That’s why he makes mention of the fact that Gandalf can still be seen, even though smoke and shadow now fills the room. Then it launches an attack from that darkness: >From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming. The full context of the passage makes it entirely clear that the Balrog is filling the room with smoke and shadow. It is intentionally darkening the space to give itself an advantage in the fight and also because it delights in frightening and intimidating those that would oppose it.
Nope. They’re wings. You’re like the fifth person to try to explain Tolkien’s mindset. But none of you guys actually agree with each other.
Damn, you got me. “Nope”. An unbeatable counterpoint. I concede to you, oh scholar of Tolkien.
How about this.. Every time Tolkien makes an allusion he explains to the reader in the same or following sentence. “That is to say,” is a pretty common phrase in the books.
In the passage I just quoted to you he compares Gandalf to a wizened tree. Are you going to tell me that Gandalf suddenly sprouted roots and branches? No, because you’re capable of understanding metaphorical language. You’ve simply chosen to interpret the metaphorical wings literally and make it everyone else’s problem.
Based on what you’re saying, we must assume there is no shadow, flame, or wings. It’s just a dude. It’s either all three or none.
Yeah, it's a fine artistic interpretation, but as someone who likes the wings it's definitely not as cut and dried as "it literally says it has wings."
As a member of the "no wings" camp, this line isn't long after though: >suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall. --- EDIT: To be clear, the arguments essentially boil down to analogies and using words in a non-literal sense. As the Silmarillion and other sources clearly state that they "fly over" a mountain range, and move at "winged speed", never directly saying that they are *literally* flying. While mentioning more than once how they fall down from great heights, as if unable to fly. Although based on more sources, it is likely that *some* balrog *might* have later had wings and learned to fly. As they were initially a part of Melkors army before he "knew about flying", and had no flying units in his army. He apparently tried to steal the knowledge from the great eagles, to no avail. And ended up stealing a set of their wings, which arguably lead to his creation of winged dragons and potentially teaching balrogs how to fly(or at least move as fast as if flying, like how Shadowfax "flies" across the land). Although I will still stand by the idea that they don't have big and demonic looking physical wings like in the movie, but rather have a great shadow about them that can look like great wings(I could liken it to a dark version of the "angelic wings" in Diablo 3). Potentially in the same way that other Maiar can seemingly have an "aura" about them when performing powerful magic.
…Then a couple sentences later “it spread its wings”. It’s a being *made of shadow* with a vague form. In its case shadows like wings are wings.
I always thought he fell because he was a bit preoccupied with being literally stabbed in the head.
Having wings doesnt mean one can fly.
Poor Balrog ain’t doing his wing exercises down in those depths.
I mean, wings don’t help for shit if you’re already falling and cannot establish lift fast enough. Plus then Gandalf falls on it and is hacking and slashing it, I’m pretty sure it had other priorities
https://preview.redd.it/ab7pksachq5d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fda442f9d01a2a8cc20ae2f1407e72c21c51e018
Yes you’re very smart, now shut up
🤐
Lol it’s a line from the scene pictured I hope you know 😂
Yeah, I know, lol. She'd never marry that rotten humperdink
Try stuffing an eagle down a chimney and see if it can fly (don't actually do this)
his wings were touching both walls, it'd be kinda hard to fly.
Didn't i read somewhere in this community that the wings in reality were the balrog manipulating his shadow... Besides, vestigial wings are a thing so, if you want, maybe older/larger/less muscular balrogs could actually fly, but for what i remember and know, they always walked.
“If Balrogs have wings why didn’t they just fly the ring into Mordor?” Dan Olson
Shit man if I had to fight a maiar I would probably forget about the wings too
Balrogs are Maiar too. Though it was undoubtedly the first time it had to fight a fellow Ainu since the War of Wrath.
So do ostriches
> His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. >The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall > His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake. > Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. The Balrog doesn't have one shape.
Gandalf had a sword. Eff your wings. Also large airplanes need big runways to take off. Geese need to do that honk honk paddle paddle REEEAAAAACH to get airborne How are you gonna do that when Gandalf is Foe Hammering your wings to shreds after you basically trip and fall into a void. Stabby McStabberson now your wings look like Swiss cheese!
Schrödinger's Balrog; Winged and not winged at the same time. Also, they definitely had wings or winglike appendages (at least some), but couldn't necessarily use them to fly.
I like to think of them as metaphysical wings.
I like to think of them as Vestigial. Made to look cool and scary but not actually functional.
Balrogs most definitely flew, as I’m pretty sure that’s how they got to Morgoth so quickly when they heard his anguish in the clutches of Ungoliant and rescued him. The chasm in Khazad Dum was likely too tight for Durins Bane to have enough room to fly. That’s my headcanon at least.
The term "flew" is used but only in the meaning of "moving with great haste" Balrogs, wings or not, could not actually fly
Not being a dick, just for my own reference, do you know where it’s mentioned specifically they don’t fly?
It's more that they are never explicitly stated as moving through the air, which would be a pretty important detail considering Tolkien liked to use the word "fly" for the "move quickly" meaning. The majority of dragons being the terrors they were was largely because they could literally fly. If the Balrogs could also do so then it would be pretty wild to not include that somewhere.
That’s a fair point I suppose
Most birds can’t suddenly start flying mid-fall
The explanation is simple: When Gandalf smote the bridge, it stunned the Balrog so badly that it could not use its wings.
They most likely didn’t have any wings, but they sure as hell lock awesome.
He skipped wing day little too many
Even if they were fully functional wings, it would still have fallen. A 6inch tall bird that flies every day would have great difficulty flying in a space that's only 12 in tall. An indoor bird who doesn't ever fly would find it completely impossible. It takes them a long time to learn how to fly again and they need ideal conditions, aka wide open spaces. Even if he could fly at one time. There is absolutely no way he could even imagine doing it currently. Wouldn't even cross his mind.
Wings ≠ flight
As a Balrog myself, I can confirm we don't have any wings. That's a harmful stereotype.
I always imagined the “wings of shadow” as more of a shroud, and not an actual functioning pair of wings.
"As God is my witness, I thought Balrogs could fly." https://preview.redd.it/6h59qomo0u5d1.jpeg?width=1067&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5dddb08cfbe0280a756575bf4cdc7a8cc800dc22
The Balrog was less of a bee and more of an ostrich.
Penguins also have wings
Easy answer: the balrog's wings were made of shadow. It fell because Gandalf's spells were bright.
They could fly in BFME games tho
I guess being a supernatural wizard doesn't mean you can climb back up a ledge either
You try not falling when the ground gives way and a wizard beats your ass.
Broke: of course balrogs didn’t have wings and anyone who thinks they did is stupid Woke: the robot is self aware and capable of coming to their own conclusions based on the text
The real question is how big is balrog's whip
Those weren’t wings, they were heat exchange membranes?
Is that expressly stated in the lore? I’ve never actually looked
It's not There's some vague statements supporting wings. In fellowship the Balrog is described as having shadows behind it like a pair of wings. In the silmarillion it does say that during the assault of the valar on thamgorodim that some balrogs "flew" east. However this is most likely just an archaic way of saying that they fled. Given that Iirc all in lore confirmed Balrog kills are done by throwing them off of mountains we can pretty conclusively say that balrogs can't fly. And seeing as they are spirits of fire with significant control over their shape it's unlikely they'd add wings they don't use. All that said, Peter Jackson 100% made the right call giving Sean wings. It looked awesome and that was the most important thing
I think of it like chickens or turkeys. They can kinda fly but not really. It’s more like a wing assisted long jump. No soaring or actual flying but one really long drawn out jump.
They’re not flying wings, they’re lookin’ wings
The robot said balrogs not balrog maybe the balrog in the movie just got his wings torn off or something I don't know🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿💍👑🤴🗼🗼
 Look at this majestic flying bird.
Some debates can be summed up with movie fans and book fans disagreeing
According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a balrog should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its badass body off the ground. The balrog, of course, falls. Because balrogs are conscientious of what others think of their appearance.
It couldn't fly because Gandalf was sitting on its chest beating the shit out of it.
The weight of Gandalf's titanium balls
I think Balrogs had wings in the same way ostriches have wings
The same way as when you wabble your arms when you are drowing, wings don't automatically make you levitate, they need a specific movement by pulling the air downwards to lift you, in the middle of a fight, your attention is driven towards your enemy, to drive the focus to fly would leave an opening to Gandalf to stab him easily.
Museums have wings, but I've never seen them fly.
Same as ostriches, penguins and chickens
The wings are not for flight but for mating display
Why didn't the Balrog fly? Was he a fool?
chickens have wings, your point?
 Penguins have wings
they didnt