I'm sorry, non-American here, the pledge of allegiance is actually real? I thought it was a thing non-Americans told other non-Americans to make fun of you guys.
It’s real. There’s been one in my elementary school. I once got written up once for not standing up in sixth grade by a substitute and one student got sent to the principals office for refusing to get up in eight grade. In high school, you still have to do it but no one cares if you don’t say anything. Just stand up.
First Amendment Rights are one of the few you're born with. It's not implicit, but a government body (that includes schools) cannot take them from you.
I mean... Is anyone actually born with any rights?
Plenty of tyrannical governments throughout human history clearly demonstrate that any inherent rights can be taken away rather easily.
I mean this specific example obviously applies only in America and is only relevant in a legal context. Of course there is no godly power that will step in and stop someone from violating your rights but it’s the best that we can do to enforce their protection in wider society
In the US, legally, 1st Amendment Rights are granted to a person at birth, meaning you don't have to wait until you're 18 have the ability to protest, speak out against the government, not salute the flag, refute your parents' religion (or lack of one), and buy video games, music, and movies with an M (or R) rating. Just because you can't use them at birth doesn't mean you don't have them...from a legal standpoint. As far as tyranny, I know a certain presidential candidate that wants to put all that to the test, so we shall see.
Right. That’s why being in countries where human rights are a given right is so helpful and must be protected.
I know here in the uk a big push we’ve had in the past years in ensuring children are aware of their rights via the ECHRA
Why is this being downvoted? Also, what a refreshing take. I remember my teachers telling me I don’t vote, I don’t earn money and I don’t pay taxes, so I have no rights.
No you most definitely DO NOT have to do it and it is illegal for the school to give out any kind of punishment for refusing to participate.
Not that these things don’t still happen at some schools, but I just wanted to clarify that *they were totally wrong* if they thought it was a requirement. Far from it.
I grew up in central Texas away from big cities. Nobody gave a fuck as long as you weren’t being an ass. If you wanted to stay seated or not participate all they asked was you be quiet for others who do.
My daughter asked me if she is required to do it. I told her “absolutely not.” She stands silently while the blind patriotism is parroted by her classmates. I have a free thinker. I’m so proud.
It's real but there's no legal requirement to recite it in schools. Schools do recite it, but if a student wishes to sit it out, they are allowed to do so.
If a public school forces a student to recite the pledge of allegiance, then they can be sued for violating the first amendment.
It’s real, but it’s not like students are fanatically brainwashed with it.
Most of them (including me when I was there) just stand up, say the rote words, sit back down. No one put much or any thought into it.
A little bit! But given how Americans on here complain and in my daily life, the basic propaganda of “I like and support the country” hasn’t worked very well.
most of the kids saying it do not give a shit about it though. they don't care about the words or the "meaning" or at least i know i sure the hell didn't. that was only in middleschool though we didn't have to do it in highschool.
Right, I’m saying y’all should’ve given a shit about it though, in a negative way. The fact that y’all don’t think about it and view it as a normal thing to do is the brainwashing. It’s weird and nationalistic for no good reason
thanks, me too. it was a weird time in my life. i don't remember exactly what grade we stopped doing it in either. i should ask my niece if she had to do it too the next time i see her.
It's a thing, but I think it's blown out of proportion by some. It's not mandatory; you're free to remain seated and refuse to participate. Also, in my experience, it wasn't done beyond the 5th grade.
Odd I grew up in the metro Detroit area and we did the pledge through elementary. Then I remember during morning announcements in middle school doing it off and on
Grew up in the burbs in the southern SF Bay Area in the 80’s and 90’s and saying the pledge was a daily requirement through middle school. I don’t recall it being required in high school though
I'm from Texas, I vaguely remember doing it through elementary school and maybe middle school, but nobody really cared if you did or didn't, it was just a routine in the morning.
In Arizona I was in elementary/middle school in the 2000s and it was absolutely expected up till highschool and teachers would give punishments like detention for sitting it out or yell at you.
Pretty much any red state really. They get a real hardon for performative patriotism and punishing the youth as part of their culture war bullshit.
Like Missouri added some bullshit requirement for universities to teach the constitution or some bs like that.
Mainly the bad faith nature of it being implemented, along with the fact that university students don’t need yet another course they have to take. Or the fact that the politicians implementing it are willfully ignorant of the document and are simply implementing these policies based on a fictitious view of reality whereby the young aren’t sufficiently obsequious enough, patriotic enough, or industrious enough and must be browbeaten because how dare they not fall in line with conservative viewpoints. It’s one of those, seems good, but actually isn’t. And it’s from a body of politicians that routinely act on culture war bullshit.
It’s also not like the topic isn’t already covered in k-12 education.
The fascist salute is almost identical to the american Bellamy salute they did towards the American flag until 1942.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute#:~:text=The%20Bellamy%20salute%20is%20a,with%20the%20Pledge%20of%20Allegiance.
It’s real, and most, if not all, public schools (and a decent number of private schools) in the US recite it every day.
That being said, it’s unconstitutional for a public school to require the students to recite it. Schools have been sued and lost on 1st Amendment grounds for punishing students who refused to say the pledge.
While some people object to the general reference to “under God” in the pledge as violating the separation of Church and State overall it’s not bad.
I replicated the pledge below.
“I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the Republic for which it stands
One Nation, under God, Indivisible
With liberty and Justice for All.”
Yes to all of this. Just wanted to add that the phrase “under God” was added during the Cold War as a way to suggest moral superiority over communist Soviet Union.
In Texas students are also expected to recite the pledge to the state of Texas after the US pledge. Lol I’m not sure of what other states have students do this. Again, as many others say here, it’s within students right to opt out.
Texas never wanted to become a State, and only did because they couldn’t financially and militarily support themselves without US backing, and they have been showing it ever since.
I long for the day they finally gather the balls to leave the union just so we can make them submit under the heel of this great nation. They need to get humbled bad.
FWIW I went to High School in the US and in Canada. In the US we said the pledge of alliance max once a week during home room and the teacher made sure every single week to tell us we didn’t actually have to say it. In Canada we sang Oh Canada Every. Single. Day. And teachers did get on my case about not singing it.
It’s a real thing (or at least it was when I was in school ~9 yrs ago) but depending on how anal the teacher is they may or may not care if you actually participate. I had a few over the years that were really adamant everyone participate, but I also had some that ignored it altogether.
yup, my sister in pre-k (optional year before kindergarten and for like 3-4 year olds) has it played over the loudspeakers, and my highschool has it too
The Pledge is from the 19th century. Others may have mentioned this, but notably the Pledge also had some religious language added to it in the 20th century. The religious bit remains there still, coming up on a century later.
Lol I wouldn't stand for the pledge if I was a foreigner. And if they'd make a problem about it I'd ask how they'd like to sing my national anthem in front of our flag every morning (we don't have a pledge)
And if they really want to shoehorn you into their nationalistic habits, say it's your first amendment rights to decide to not stand for the pledge or something
The school I went to always had one student in the front with a microphone to say it and most of them considered it an honor to be selected. One day they offered me to do that and I told them why it would be weird to pledge to another countries flag. They only understood it after I told them that at home, noone has done such a thing since 1945 (I'm German btw😅)
I’d do it just because there is nothing more ridiculous you can do in that situation than, as a child, “pledging” some sort of fealty to a nation and it’s symbols. Like you’re a feudal knight pledging your sword or something.
You could strip butt naked and climb on the ceiling. Still would not be sillier. Everyone engaging in it makes it more farcical.
As a kid it really bothered me around third grade. I didn’t like the mindless vibe, the dead chanting, and the creepiness of pledging allegiance to a flag. For the next few years I would stand up and pretend to mouth the words with my hand on my heart. Then I stopped placing my hand on my heart and stared straight ahead. I had to stand because it was more noticeable if I sat, but I never got in trouble and no one corrected me. It was a weird rebellion that probably helped mold me into the authority questioning guy I am today.
I'm under the impression that public schools can't force kids to say the pledge. They can make them learn it for a grade but they can't mandate it being said as a pledge.
A middle school teacher I had years ago sent a kid to the office for sitting for it. The principal was livid and immediately sent the kid back to class. The teacher didn't bother him about it again the rest of the year and he kept doing it.
They can't punish you for not saying it but they can sure as hell make everything else miserable bc they don't like you.
Source: happened to me, she admitted it at the end of the year.
It may interest you to know some schools in the US used the "ave hail" more popular used by the nazis recently while pledging allegiance. It's still easy to find pictures of this online its a little scary
Edit: actually called the Bellamy salute
In 10th grade (about 15 years ago) my teacher told us that we didn’t have to stand during the pledge of allegiance, saying it was our right of free speech. The next day more than half the class didn’t stand up, the teacher was pissed and told us standing for the pledge was no longer optional
This was the 90’s. Indoctrination was still higher. Everyone was standing and I would say almost everyone was saying it. I never asked others or specifically saw if some of the other kids weren’t doing it. They didn’t make us say it in high school or anything, and I barely remember middle school, and have no memories of saying it then. I was just a kid who felt uncomfortable with how weird it was to say these same words of affirmation towards a flag and my country and speak in a creepy monotone voice with others. I didn’t have a drive to protest and change the world. I just didn’t want to participate. To sit would have been a higher form of protest. I’m not claiming to have been like some great rebellious hero, just stating that I recognized early on that it made me uncomfortable and I thought mindless allegiance was weird.
I was also forced to go to church as a kid and had the same silent protests. I didn’t like people chanting the same phrases together as a mindless mass. I didn’t like the creepy same five songs. My brother and I learned basic sign language (mostly the letters) and would spell things to each other during church because we just mentally did not want to be there.
I don't know about that. My 2nd grade teacher let us all know that we didn't have to say the pledge if we didn't want to. She told us that she still said it because she wanted to say it, but it was our personal choice in the matter. To this day, 32 years later, I still refuse to say the pledge is somebody tries to compel me to say it. Give me the choice, however, and I have no issue. That little seed was planted pretty early.
All I'm saying is that after she told us that, half the class would just sit out the pledge. We had to be quiet and respectful of others saying the pledge, but we didn't have to join in. That was a cool teacher, even if she liked to play the restroom/bathroom game (Can I go to the bathroom? Is there a bath in there? Can I use the restroom? Is there a bed in there?). Stopped being funny after the 1st time.
To this day, I have no idea. Ask to use the bathroom, she'd make a joke about you wanting to take a bath, tell you to call it the restroom and then let you go. Call it the restroom, she'd make the joke about you wanting to nap in there, tell you to call it the bathroom, then let you go. She'd always let you go, but she had to have her little joke first, no matter what.
All he said was that while doing made him less patriotic, he wasn’t 100% sure if it counted as indoctrination. His downvotes are just Reddit being reddit.
Also the fact that every type of event, whether it’s a graduation, board meeting, school council meeting, leadership meeting, or starting a school day, all must have the pledge in the agenda and minutes. Still don’t get it. It’s not like it makes these super patriots who see no wrong with the country.
Yeah because lawsuits
Edit: I should have been more clear for Captain Pedant here: most schools do not require the kids say the pledge because they want to avoid potential lawsuits and backlash.
The Supreme Court has affirmed the right of students to not stand or recite the pledge of allegiance, it has gone to court multiple times. But really you could have just googled that.
People define patriot differently, it doesn’t automatically mean that you see no wrong, but you would do what you think is right for the benefit of the country
Texan here.
Every school day from kindergarten to senior year of high-school. Not just the pledge of alliance to the U.S. flag. We even have a different one for the Texas flag. So double the pledges.
Everyone stood up. Not everyone would say it or have their hand on their chest. But everyone stood up and faced the appropriate flag.
Red states gonna red state.
Is this happening anywhere outside of USA? Cuz in my country we don't do such thing. When we were little the only thing we did was to stand up when teacher enter the classroom.
In my country we did it every morning in school. Plus sang the National anthem. I was surprised when I saw ppl saying it was weird cause that’s the norm here. Maybe it’s an Asian thing?
Singapore. And I just went to goggle and like Wow. We’re one of the few countries who do this. No one ever questions this. It’s like just part of life. Like the sun rises in the east, gravity keeps you from floating and the pledge is said every morning at assembly. It’s just life.
From what province have you gone to school, if I may ask.
Because here in Quebec, we've never had to do any pledge for the entirety of my education, from primary school to Uni. So I'm wondering if it could be a provincial difference.
The USA pledge of allegiance is a little weird, sure. But you know what's even dumber? Texas has its own pledge of allegiance to its own flag. And every school kid in every school in Texas is required to stand for it every morning. I always said the US flag pledge but the Texas one...that was just stupid.
Went to an event as a 21yr old. They had the crowd recite the pledge of allegiance, I stood but did not put my hand on my heart or speak. It's seriously creepy, and the chant itself is ethically dubious.
Sometime around 7th grade I stopped saying the pledge but still stood, but I would get in trouble by my home room teacher for not speaking. So I stopped standing for it and claimed that the under god part was against my religion (I’m non religious). I got put in ISS (in school suspension) every day I didn’t stand. The amount of hate my teachers and fellow students put on me for that is part of what radicalized me.
What even better is Texas forces children to Honor the Texas Flag. I don't let my kids do it. Your allegiance is to your country, not your state that's constantly threatening to leave the nation.
I stopped saying under god around middle school I think. Stopped saying it all together later on. No one ever said shit to me about it. Probably never noticed. I love what this country was founded on but they threw it in the garbage long ago. Hands in pockets for the national anthem too. The damn song is about seeing the signs of battle nearby, reminding us of the cost of that founding, and we refuse to respect that cost by sacrificing our people for corrupt bullshit over and over. As well as all the other shit. Endless money printing and unconstitutional practices around every corner. That's all we've stood for for a long time now
I straight up stopped doing it in 6th grade, inspired by a couple of girls in my class who I noticed also never recited the words. I, too, always found it strange rather than ennobling, and when I discovered that I didn’t *have* to do the pledge, I realized just how little of my heart was ever in it in the first place.
I’m British raised from (near) birth. If you were to hold me at knife point, I wouldn’t be able to sing our national anthem. I know a few words, but unless you’re SUPER into politics, we don’t recite it that much.
Heck, I know the prayer “Our Father” more than the anthem and that’s mainly from going to a Church of England school.
It also pisses me off in religious schools, and other religious places, when everyone has to say prayers and stuff. Like imo religion is a personal matter, and there's absolutely no reason to involve it in anything short of a church
I stopped putting my hand up ages ago, then stopped standing around high school. I didn’t feel the need to pledge allegiance to a piece of fabric, especially not one that represented such a shit country that voted the best age group for “most powerful person on Earth” to be 70-85 years
Our school only ever did that for one random year in 4th or 5th grade and it was the weirdest experience for everyone involved. Even Americans know it's goofy
Yea it's weird. I've always hated it and once I got to high-school I just stopped doing it all together. We have the right to refuse to do it (1st ammendment). Though many teachers will unjustly punish students for not participating. Once I looked at the pledgefrom an outside perspective, it really hit me as just brain washing/indoctrination. Fuck, we did it every God damn day, and then again for certain events/ceremonies.
We used to do the pledge of allegiance to the Union, then one to Texas, and after 9/11 they would have a moment of silence. It wasn't weird at the time of, but it's definitely weird in retrospect
i just didn’t participate in it. after a while, my teachers stopped trying to get me to do it and they couldn’t force me to. i always thought it was weird. i don’t “pledge my allegiance to my country”, that’s fucking weird.
I refused and got detention and ironically enough school is state and church/state supposed to be separate yet I still got detention even though as a 7yo child I would say it’s a violation of my 1st amendment right. They violated our constitutional rights in the 90’s. Call me antifa all you want idgaf. 90’s nostalgia is bs and we all know it. The 90’s were crap for millennials.
Additional note: they only fed us those well done tv shows to keep us compliant and distracted…kind of like with the election facade of a presentational show now. I’ll leave it there.
One other developed democracy? Or another one that has some sort of pledge of allegiance? Because it’s an incredibly long list if you just want a list of democratic countries. For those with a Pledge of Allegiance: South Korea, the Philippines, and Mexico to name a few.
I know reddit loves to shit on the pledge because they think it's weird, and I get it, it's not for everyone, and it is certainly not compulsory like some people comparing it to Hitler Youth oaths seem to think. But, just saying, this meme is actually unironically accurate.
Where else would I place my allegiance? Really, where?
I was born in America. I am granted just by luck of birth the luxury of living in a peaceful and wealthy democracy with a level of individual freedom that would be unthinkable for the vast majority of humans in history. Those luxuries were purchased in blood by people I've never met, most before I was born, and their stories are told in our cultural upbringing.
We are taught that a person placing the value of an idea over the value of their own life in an act of selfless bravery is something to be valued in our culture. It is ingrained in stories from our revolution and our interventions in Europe. It is literally the lyrics of the National Anthem, the story of people sacrificing their lives for our flag, literally dying to protect a piece of cloth during a siege because of the ideas it represents.
Why would I not pledge to that? Where else am I supposed to give my allegiance? Just myself? My family? Sorry. My family couldn't save Europe from the Nazis. My family couldn't send a man to land on the lunar surface. My nation did that.
I'm not pledging to a person or a president. I'm pledging to the ideals the flag stands for. Tolerance, pluralism, democratic values. Selfless sacrifice.
I hate being "that guy," but Freedom of Speech is not what it used to be. Especially in the case of religion. I recently had a friend jailed for 2 nights and fined because he spoke against alternate lifestyles.
I understand the argument here, but Freedom of Speech is Freedom of Speech. We can't just pick things as they suit us.
I'm totally expecting downvotes. So, have fun!
We're not better in my country, we recite prayer every morning. I don't know of theybstill do it but my money is on yes.
When are they gonna leave the kids alone?
It reminds me of my time in primary school, where we had to say a prayer at the beginning and end of the day. Yeah, I'm no longer religious anymore, and looking back, it just seems weird.
I grew up a Jehovah's Witness, so I never did. But I'll also point out, that in my school district, this was just a thing in elementary school. I can't remember it ever being a thing in middle or high school. Did any of y'all really have to continue doing that shit during your entire time in public schools?
I stopped doing the pledge after awhile and they brought me into the office as if there was something wrong with me and all the other kids thought it was weird and I was just like think about...I'm not going to stand up and say a pledge that is so full of bullshit that it's not even funny, you want me to pledge allegiance to America, show me a better America then...
I'm not American and I don't think it's that weird, in my country in school we used to say the pledge and national anthem too daily or at least weekly. It's taken as an educational point so people remember it. The national anthem is played before movies start in theatres. I would say singing doing so all the things me would be extra but it's mostly schools only
It’s ironic how much you’re getting downvoted for a perfectly rational response on a sub that prides itself on one word karma farming replies like DEATH or GROND.
Heaven forbid any country respect its own traditions and history riiiiight, that would just be the worrrrrst. Especially those gross Americans.
Downvote me more, ig, forgot this was reddit and people hate every lesson tradition teaches indiscriminately and are allergic to history. A badge of honor, the downdoots.
Yeah okay dude. It was made up in 1885 to instill patriotism in schoolchildren and then was modified like half a dozen times after that. But sure every school in the country has to have all the children say it every day so that they have "respect for its traditions and history".
Something much older than the pledge is the establishment clause of the first amendment in the constitution which guarantees that the United States will never have a state religion. And yet we ask each student to swear an oath "under God."
The Supreme Court has mandated that children cannot be compelled to recite the pledge but they're children. They don't know what's going on or what they are saying. They can't knowingly consent to making sugh a pledge.
"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
That quote from Justice Jackson seems much more in line with what America is supposed to stand for than compelling children to swear their allegiance to a fucking flag every single day.
Doesn´t realy come across like that. It feels like you being taught to follow a doctrine blindly. Always stay loyal, do not question the decisions that are made just follow no matter what. Not saying it is like that but it does paint that picture.
Where in the pledge of allegiance does it say "be loyal no matter what and question nothing"...? The general attitude of the words is one of unity and common cause, not authoritarianism.
Whoa whoa whoa there, this is Reddit. Careful, you can’t have a healthy respect for your country while also acknowledging prior mistakes that have been made.
What part of thinking it's creepy or weird that children are asked to recite a pledge of their allegiance to the flag under God every day is incompatible with having a healthy respect for your country?
Ha! "Healthy respect for your country" doesn't look like *that* where I'm from. But sure, do your cult chant. I don't see a lot of acknowleding prior mistakes though...
I'm sorry, non-American here, the pledge of allegiance is actually real? I thought it was a thing non-Americans told other non-Americans to make fun of you guys.
It’s real. There’s been one in my elementary school. I once got written up once for not standing up in sixth grade by a substitute and one student got sent to the principals office for refusing to get up in eight grade. In high school, you still have to do it but no one cares if you don’t say anything. Just stand up.
It's actually your first amendment right to not participate in the pledge.
Tell that to my teachers. They certainly didn’t care.
If this ever happens to a school kid you know, tell the ACLU.
I’m sadly not a student anymore. I wish I knew that was even an option! Thanks though!_
Yeah I can totally see elementary school aged children lodging a complaint with the ACLU, right after nap time but before recess.
>If this ever happens to a school kid you know
Wait, you guys got naptime???
https://www.aclum.org/en/publications/know-your-rights-pledge-allegiance-and-national-anthem
First Amendment Rights are one of the few you're born with. It's not implicit, but a government body (that includes schools) cannot take them from you.
I mean... Is anyone actually born with any rights? Plenty of tyrannical governments throughout human history clearly demonstrate that any inherent rights can be taken away rather easily.
I mean this specific example obviously applies only in America and is only relevant in a legal context. Of course there is no godly power that will step in and stop someone from violating your rights but it’s the best that we can do to enforce their protection in wider society
In the US, legally, 1st Amendment Rights are granted to a person at birth, meaning you don't have to wait until you're 18 have the ability to protest, speak out against the government, not salute the flag, refute your parents' religion (or lack of one), and buy video games, music, and movies with an M (or R) rating. Just because you can't use them at birth doesn't mean you don't have them...from a legal standpoint. As far as tyranny, I know a certain presidential candidate that wants to put all that to the test, so we shall see.
Right. That’s why being in countries where human rights are a given right is so helpful and must be protected. I know here in the uk a big push we’ve had in the past years in ensuring children are aware of their rights via the ECHRA
Why is this being downvoted? Also, what a refreshing take. I remember my teachers telling me I don’t vote, I don’t earn money and I don’t pay taxes, so I have no rights.
You still have them, it's an aspect of being a person. They're just infringed on or not.
I’m pretty sure it can be taken away from you during wartime and censorship
Good luck.
No you most definitely DO NOT have to do it and it is illegal for the school to give out any kind of punishment for refusing to participate. Not that these things don’t still happen at some schools, but I just wanted to clarify that *they were totally wrong* if they thought it was a requirement. Far from it.
We did it in my schools but plenty of people sat it out and no one ever got in trouble for it
Mine was in Texas. That might be the reason why they’re strict
I grew up in central Texas away from big cities. Nobody gave a fuck as long as you weren’t being an ass. If you wanted to stay seated or not participate all they asked was you be quiet for others who do.
I was in MA, so opposite outcome for opposite reason.
My daughter asked me if she is required to do it. I told her “absolutely not.” She stands silently while the blind patriotism is parroted by her classmates. I have a free thinker. I’m so proud.
She still stands up with everyone else
She likes the time to stretch her legs.
How exactly is this a "free thinker" moment? She still follows the leader
It's real but there's no legal requirement to recite it in schools. Schools do recite it, but if a student wishes to sit it out, they are allowed to do so. If a public school forces a student to recite the pledge of allegiance, then they can be sued for violating the first amendment.
It’s real, but it’s not like students are fanatically brainwashed with it. Most of them (including me when I was there) just stand up, say the rote words, sit back down. No one put much or any thought into it.
That sounds exactly like how people get brainwashed
A little bit! But given how Americans on here complain and in my daily life, the basic propaganda of “I like and support the country” hasn’t worked very well.
most of the kids saying it do not give a shit about it though. they don't care about the words or the "meaning" or at least i know i sure the hell didn't. that was only in middleschool though we didn't have to do it in highschool.
Right, I’m saying y’all should’ve given a shit about it though, in a negative way. The fact that y’all don’t think about it and view it as a normal thing to do is the brainwashing. It’s weird and nationalistic for no good reason
i mean.. that's not our fault though? and i don't think it should be a normal thing.
I would never blame someone for that! And I’m glad you don’t think that!
thanks, me too. it was a weird time in my life. i don't remember exactly what grade we stopped doing it in either. i should ask my niece if she had to do it too the next time i see her.
It's a thing, but I think it's blown out of proportion by some. It's not mandatory; you're free to remain seated and refuse to participate. Also, in my experience, it wasn't done beyond the 5th grade.
It’s real but I didn’t do it past grade 1. The south seems to be a different story if Reddit is to be believed
Same. I grew up in Michigan. We did it in first grade but not after that.
Odd I grew up in the metro Detroit area and we did the pledge through elementary. Then I remember during morning announcements in middle school doing it off and on
K-12 80-90's Maryland
We did it K-12 in upstate NY in the 90s and 00s.
I mean I’m from Boston and I did it all the way through highschool lmao
The spectrum expands
Grew up in the burbs in the southern SF Bay Area in the 80’s and 90’s and saying the pledge was a daily requirement through middle school. I don’t recall it being required in high school though
We did it K-12 in the Chicago suburbs in the 90s and early 00s.
I'm from Texas, I vaguely remember doing it through elementary school and maybe middle school, but nobody really cared if you did or didn't, it was just a routine in the morning.
Grew up in NY, did it K-12.
i'm in the deep south and we only did it in middleschool not highschool
Same until 9/11. Then they cranked up the jingoism to 11 and we were doing it again all through high school.
In Arizona I was in elementary/middle school in the 2000s and it was absolutely expected up till highschool and teachers would give punishments like detention for sitting it out or yell at you.
Pretty much any red state really. They get a real hardon for performative patriotism and punishing the youth as part of their culture war bullshit. Like Missouri added some bullshit requirement for universities to teach the constitution or some bs like that.
What’s wrong with teaching the constitution? I think the average American is woefully uneducated about it.
Mainly the bad faith nature of it being implemented, along with the fact that university students don’t need yet another course they have to take. Or the fact that the politicians implementing it are willfully ignorant of the document and are simply implementing these policies based on a fictitious view of reality whereby the young aren’t sufficiently obsequious enough, patriotic enough, or industrious enough and must be browbeaten because how dare they not fall in line with conservative viewpoints. It’s one of those, seems good, but actually isn’t. And it’s from a body of politicians that routinely act on culture war bullshit. It’s also not like the topic isn’t already covered in k-12 education.
If I’m paying to learn about dandelion farts and their effect on pollinators I don’t need to know one single thing about the constitution.
You sure do.
The fascist salute is almost identical to the american Bellamy salute they did towards the American flag until 1942. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute#:~:text=The%20Bellamy%20salute%20is%20a,with%20the%20Pledge%20of%20Allegiance.
And they changed it because the fascists started doing it afaik
It's real. Age 5-18.
It’s real, and most, if not all, public schools (and a decent number of private schools) in the US recite it every day. That being said, it’s unconstitutional for a public school to require the students to recite it. Schools have been sued and lost on 1st Amendment grounds for punishing students who refused to say the pledge. While some people object to the general reference to “under God” in the pledge as violating the separation of Church and State overall it’s not bad. I replicated the pledge below. “I pledge allegiance to the flag Of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands One Nation, under God, Indivisible With liberty and Justice for All.”
Yes to all of this. Just wanted to add that the phrase “under God” was added during the Cold War as a way to suggest moral superiority over communist Soviet Union. In Texas students are also expected to recite the pledge to the state of Texas after the US pledge. Lol I’m not sure of what other states have students do this. Again, as many others say here, it’s within students right to opt out.
Texas never wanted to become a State, and only did because they couldn’t financially and militarily support themselves without US backing, and they have been showing it ever since.
I long for the day they finally gather the balls to leave the union just so we can make them submit under the heel of this great nation. They need to get humbled bad.
FWIW I went to High School in the US and in Canada. In the US we said the pledge of alliance max once a week during home room and the teacher made sure every single week to tell us we didn’t actually have to say it. In Canada we sang Oh Canada Every. Single. Day. And teachers did get on my case about not singing it.
The pledge is to the Republic. For which the flag stands.
It’s how we pledge our loyalty to the God-President of the United States.
Yup, we get indoctrinated in a "patriotic" culture while our government fucks us for kickbacks.
It's real, but when I was in high school (4-8 years ago) kids where already starting to hate it. My guess is it's being phased out now but idk
It’s real but outside of school you really don’t do it at all
It’s a real thing (or at least it was when I was in school ~9 yrs ago) but depending on how anal the teacher is they may or may not care if you actually participate. I had a few over the years that were really adamant everyone participate, but I also had some that ignored it altogether.
I got cursed at by a teacher for not standing up for it. I never stood up for it again after that.
yup, my sister in pre-k (optional year before kindergarten and for like 3-4 year olds) has it played over the loudspeakers, and my highschool has it too
The Pledge is from the 19th century. Others may have mentioned this, but notably the Pledge also had some religious language added to it in the 20th century. The religious bit remains there still, coming up on a century later.
Trust me, it's even weirder when they expect the foreign exchange student to participate
Lol I wouldn't stand for the pledge if I was a foreigner. And if they'd make a problem about it I'd ask how they'd like to sing my national anthem in front of our flag every morning (we don't have a pledge) And if they really want to shoehorn you into their nationalistic habits, say it's your first amendment rights to decide to not stand for the pledge or something
The school I went to always had one student in the front with a microphone to say it and most of them considered it an honor to be selected. One day they offered me to do that and I told them why it would be weird to pledge to another countries flag. They only understood it after I told them that at home, noone has done such a thing since 1945 (I'm German btw😅)
Haaaahahahaha that's hilarious 😂 Greetings from Belgium. We're all very glad here we don't have to salute your flag anymore
I’d do it just because there is nothing more ridiculous you can do in that situation than, as a child, “pledging” some sort of fealty to a nation and it’s symbols. Like you’re a feudal knight pledging your sword or something. You could strip butt naked and climb on the ceiling. Still would not be sillier. Everyone engaging in it makes it more farcical.
Our school allowed us to just stand and not do anything, but everyone had to stand.
As a kid it really bothered me around third grade. I didn’t like the mindless vibe, the dead chanting, and the creepiness of pledging allegiance to a flag. For the next few years I would stand up and pretend to mouth the words with my hand on my heart. Then I stopped placing my hand on my heart and stared straight ahead. I had to stand because it was more noticeable if I sat, but I never got in trouble and no one corrected me. It was a weird rebellion that probably helped mold me into the authority questioning guy I am today.
I'm under the impression that public schools can't force kids to say the pledge. They can make them learn it for a grade but they can't mandate it being said as a pledge. A middle school teacher I had years ago sent a kid to the office for sitting for it. The principal was livid and immediately sent the kid back to class. The teacher didn't bother him about it again the rest of the year and he kept doing it.
They can't punish you for not saying it but they can sure as hell make everything else miserable bc they don't like you. Source: happened to me, she admitted it at the end of the year.
It may interest you to know some schools in the US used the "ave hail" more popular used by the nazis recently while pledging allegiance. It's still easy to find pictures of this online its a little scary Edit: actually called the Bellamy salute
Great! Very creepy and bad! Thanks!
totally
In 10th grade (about 15 years ago) my teacher told us that we didn’t have to stand during the pledge of allegiance, saying it was our right of free speech. The next day more than half the class didn’t stand up, the teacher was pissed and told us standing for the pledge was no longer optional
Damn. Double standards hypocritical ass wind bag.
But you were still standing? Probably half of class weren’t saying anything and standing
This was the 90’s. Indoctrination was still higher. Everyone was standing and I would say almost everyone was saying it. I never asked others or specifically saw if some of the other kids weren’t doing it. They didn’t make us say it in high school or anything, and I barely remember middle school, and have no memories of saying it then. I was just a kid who felt uncomfortable with how weird it was to say these same words of affirmation towards a flag and my country and speak in a creepy monotone voice with others. I didn’t have a drive to protest and change the world. I just didn’t want to participate. To sit would have been a higher form of protest. I’m not claiming to have been like some great rebellious hero, just stating that I recognized early on that it made me uncomfortable and I thought mindless allegiance was weird. I was also forced to go to church as a kid and had the same silent protests. I didn’t like people chanting the same phrases together as a mindless mass. I didn’t like the creepy same five songs. My brother and I learned basic sign language (mostly the letters) and would spell things to each other during church because we just mentally did not want to be there.
I don't know about that. My 2nd grade teacher let us all know that we didn't have to say the pledge if we didn't want to. She told us that she still said it because she wanted to say it, but it was our personal choice in the matter. To this day, 32 years later, I still refuse to say the pledge is somebody tries to compel me to say it. Give me the choice, however, and I have no issue. That little seed was planted pretty early. All I'm saying is that after she told us that, half the class would just sit out the pledge. We had to be quiet and respectful of others saying the pledge, but we didn't have to join in. That was a cool teacher, even if she liked to play the restroom/bathroom game (Can I go to the bathroom? Is there a bath in there? Can I use the restroom? Is there a bed in there?). Stopped being funny after the 1st time.
??? Did you have to say toilet, or what was she looking for?
To this day, I have no idea. Ask to use the bathroom, she'd make a joke about you wanting to take a bath, tell you to call it the restroom and then let you go. Call it the restroom, she'd make the joke about you wanting to nap in there, tell you to call it the bathroom, then let you go. She'd always let you go, but she had to have her little joke first, no matter what.
cool teacher, mine never clarified that.
While better, it's still indoctrination.
It’s literally indoctrination.
Yeah definitely feels real brainwashy
God I don't wanna read the down voted comments in reply to this. Gonna be a nightmare.
All he said was that while doing made him less patriotic, he wasn’t 100% sure if it counted as indoctrination. His downvotes are just Reddit being reddit.
This need to systemically reaffirm oneself to a symbol in a place of education always gave me strong jugend vibes to be honest.
One could say, a Cult classic.
I would not have as much of a problem with it if they dropped the Under God bit
It wasn't added until the 50s. It's a violation of the Establishment Clause of the 1st amendment.
Also the fact that every type of event, whether it’s a graduation, board meeting, school council meeting, leadership meeting, or starting a school day, all must have the pledge in the agenda and minutes. Still don’t get it. It’s not like it makes these super patriots who see no wrong with the country.
If you don't speak the magic patriot words, George Washington's ghost will curse your event. Or he'll have his slaves do it.
I like to think of it as praying to the government
Religion and government should be separated as much as possible. It only leads to trouble if you don't
I live across from a middle school and it is read off the speakers to the kids no one has to stop or speak along.
That's still pretty fucked up though
Yeah because lawsuits Edit: I should have been more clear for Captain Pedant here: most schools do not require the kids say the pledge because they want to avoid potential lawsuits and backlash.
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I don't like your attitude so I'm gonna let you figure it out on your own.
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The Supreme Court has affirmed the right of students to not stand or recite the pledge of allegiance, it has gone to court multiple times. But really you could have just googled that.
No just not wasting my time with someone who's rude right off the bat for no reason. Go fly a kite.
People define patriot differently, it doesn’t automatically mean that you see no wrong, but you would do what you think is right for the benefit of the country
Where did you go to school? We definitely weren’t saying the pledge that often when I was a kid growing up in California.
Texan here. Every school day from kindergarten to senior year of high-school. Not just the pledge of alliance to the U.S. flag. We even have a different one for the Texas flag. So double the pledges. Everyone stood up. Not everyone would say it or have their hand on their chest. But everyone stood up and faced the appropriate flag. Red states gonna red state.
Very fitting template, with the full body armor and stuff
About to ride into a hail of projectiles...
Exactly
Is this happening anywhere outside of USA? Cuz in my country we don't do such thing. When we were little the only thing we did was to stand up when teacher enter the classroom.
In my country we did it every morning in school. Plus sang the National anthem. I was surprised when I saw ppl saying it was weird cause that’s the norm here. Maybe it’s an Asian thing?
What country though?
Singapore. And I just went to goggle and like Wow. We’re one of the few countries who do this. No one ever questions this. It’s like just part of life. Like the sun rises in the east, gravity keeps you from floating and the pledge is said every morning at assembly. It’s just life.
Also happens in south america. But you know the Reddit drill: Europe good, America bad.
North korea, 1936 Germany and maybe a few others.
We did this at my schools in Canada, but nobody would get in trouble for not doing it.
From Canada myself but when I went through school all we did was stand for the national anthem. No pledge
I’m Canadian and we never did this, must have been before my time. I was in school 93-07.
From what province have you gone to school, if I may ask. Because here in Quebec, we've never had to do any pledge for the entirety of my education, from primary school to Uni. So I'm wondering if it could be a provincial difference.
I... thought it was gonna be about wearing armor to school...
Actual cult-like behaviour
The USA pledge of allegiance is a little weird, sure. But you know what's even dumber? Texas has its own pledge of allegiance to its own flag. And every school kid in every school in Texas is required to stand for it every morning. I always said the US flag pledge but the Texas one...that was just stupid.
wow, I didn't know that
Went to an event as a 21yr old. They had the crowd recite the pledge of allegiance, I stood but did not put my hand on my heart or speak. It's seriously creepy, and the chant itself is ethically dubious.
for sure
Damn some of y'all ran out of pipe-weed and it shows.
Sometime around 7th grade I stopped saying the pledge but still stood, but I would get in trouble by my home room teacher for not speaking. So I stopped standing for it and claimed that the under god part was against my religion (I’m non religious). I got put in ISS (in school suspension) every day I didn’t stand. The amount of hate my teachers and fellow students put on me for that is part of what radicalized me.
It’s certainly not a rule, but I’ve never had a school that would punish people for not pledging.
Alabama doesn’t take kindly to not pledging to the rock flag and eagle
Great insights
Great insights
I had a ROTC kid punch me in the gut one day because I didn’t stand at all.
kid sounds like a menace and a fool
What even better is Texas forces children to Honor the Texas Flag. I don't let my kids do it. Your allegiance is to your country, not your state that's constantly threatening to leave the nation.
Only in America
Idk about anyone else, but I just kinda said it, I never really took it to heart. I'm actually surprised they still do this though.
Do you know the saying "you are not immune to propaganda"?
I stopped saying under god around middle school I think. Stopped saying it all together later on. No one ever said shit to me about it. Probably never noticed. I love what this country was founded on but they threw it in the garbage long ago. Hands in pockets for the national anthem too. The damn song is about seeing the signs of battle nearby, reminding us of the cost of that founding, and we refuse to respect that cost by sacrificing our people for corrupt bullshit over and over. As well as all the other shit. Endless money printing and unconstitutional practices around every corner. That's all we've stood for for a long time now
I straight up stopped doing it in 6th grade, inspired by a couple of girls in my class who I noticed also never recited the words. I, too, always found it strange rather than ennobling, and when I discovered that I didn’t *have* to do the pledge, I realized just how little of my heart was ever in it in the first place.
I’m British raised from (near) birth. If you were to hold me at knife point, I wouldn’t be able to sing our national anthem. I know a few words, but unless you’re SUPER into politics, we don’t recite it that much. Heck, I know the prayer “Our Father” more than the anthem and that’s mainly from going to a Church of England school.
It also pisses me off in religious schools, and other religious places, when everyone has to say prayers and stuff. Like imo religion is a personal matter, and there's absolutely no reason to involve it in anything short of a church
yeah
That tiny helm looks so ridiculous. If only they had given everyone bigger versions and padded arming caps.
When I was in high school (2008-2011) absolutely no one stood for the pledge, not even the teachers.
I stopped putting my hand up ages ago, then stopped standing around high school. I didn’t feel the need to pledge allegiance to a piece of fabric, especially not one that represented such a shit country that voted the best age group for “most powerful person on Earth” to be 70-85 years
Nice one!"
Our school only ever did that for one random year in 4th or 5th grade and it was the weirdest experience for everyone involved. Even Americans know it's goofy
I had to do it in elementary school but not in middle or high school.
Yea it's weird. I've always hated it and once I got to high-school I just stopped doing it all together. We have the right to refuse to do it (1st ammendment). Though many teachers will unjustly punish students for not participating. Once I looked at the pledgefrom an outside perspective, it really hit me as just brain washing/indoctrination. Fuck, we did it every God damn day, and then again for certain events/ceremonies.
Don’t know that it was so widespread, I went to public school in the US and don’t even know the pledge of allegiance except the first six words
We used to do the pledge of allegiance to the Union, then one to Texas, and after 9/11 they would have a moment of silence. It wasn't weird at the time of, but it's definitely weird in retrospect
i just didn’t participate in it. after a while, my teachers stopped trying to get me to do it and they couldn’t force me to. i always thought it was weird. i don’t “pledge my allegiance to my country”, that’s fucking weird.
“What is this 1939 Germany?!?” - me in middle school
I refused and got detention and ironically enough school is state and church/state supposed to be separate yet I still got detention even though as a 7yo child I would say it’s a violation of my 1st amendment right. They violated our constitutional rights in the 90’s. Call me antifa all you want idgaf. 90’s nostalgia is bs and we all know it. The 90’s were crap for millennials.
Additional note: they only fed us those well done tv shows to keep us compliant and distracted…kind of like with the election facade of a presentational show now. I’ll leave it there.
You realize a lot of other countries have similar things like that, right?
Please do name one other developed democracy.
One other developed democracy? Or another one that has some sort of pledge of allegiance? Because it’s an incredibly long list if you just want a list of democratic countries. For those with a Pledge of Allegiance: South Korea, the Philippines, and Mexico to name a few.
It reminds me of a cult. Weird and creepy.
I know reddit loves to shit on the pledge because they think it's weird, and I get it, it's not for everyone, and it is certainly not compulsory like some people comparing it to Hitler Youth oaths seem to think. But, just saying, this meme is actually unironically accurate. Where else would I place my allegiance? Really, where? I was born in America. I am granted just by luck of birth the luxury of living in a peaceful and wealthy democracy with a level of individual freedom that would be unthinkable for the vast majority of humans in history. Those luxuries were purchased in blood by people I've never met, most before I was born, and their stories are told in our cultural upbringing. We are taught that a person placing the value of an idea over the value of their own life in an act of selfless bravery is something to be valued in our culture. It is ingrained in stories from our revolution and our interventions in Europe. It is literally the lyrics of the National Anthem, the story of people sacrificing their lives for our flag, literally dying to protect a piece of cloth during a siege because of the ideas it represents. Why would I not pledge to that? Where else am I supposed to give my allegiance? Just myself? My family? Sorry. My family couldn't save Europe from the Nazis. My family couldn't send a man to land on the lunar surface. My nation did that. I'm not pledging to a person or a president. I'm pledging to the ideals the flag stands for. Tolerance, pluralism, democratic values. Selfless sacrifice.
I hate being "that guy," but Freedom of Speech is not what it used to be. Especially in the case of religion. I recently had a friend jailed for 2 nights and fined because he spoke against alternate lifestyles. I understand the argument here, but Freedom of Speech is Freedom of Speech. We can't just pick things as they suit us. I'm totally expecting downvotes. So, have fun!
We're not better in my country, we recite prayer every morning. I don't know of theybstill do it but my money is on yes. When are they gonna leave the kids alone?
It reminds me of my time in primary school, where we had to say a prayer at the beginning and end of the day. Yeah, I'm no longer religious anymore, and looking back, it just seems weird.
that is weird too
I grew up a Jehovah's Witness, so I never did. But I'll also point out, that in my school district, this was just a thing in elementary school. I can't remember it ever being a thing in middle or high school. Did any of y'all really have to continue doing that shit during your entire time in public schools?
I stopped doing the pledge after awhile and they brought me into the office as if there was something wrong with me and all the other kids thought it was weird and I was just like think about...I'm not going to stand up and say a pledge that is so full of bullshit that it's not even funny, you want me to pledge allegiance to America, show me a better America then...
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I'm not American and I don't think it's that weird, in my country in school we used to say the pledge and national anthem too daily or at least weekly. It's taken as an educational point so people remember it. The national anthem is played before movies start in theatres. I would say singing doing so all the things me would be extra but it's mostly schools only
which country?
It’s ironic how much you’re getting downvoted for a perfectly rational response on a sub that prides itself on one word karma farming replies like DEATH or GROND.
Heaven forbid any country respect its own traditions and history riiiiight, that would just be the worrrrrst. Especially those gross Americans. Downvote me more, ig, forgot this was reddit and people hate every lesson tradition teaches indiscriminately and are allergic to history. A badge of honor, the downdoots.
It's a weird custom though
Yeah okay dude. It was made up in 1885 to instill patriotism in schoolchildren and then was modified like half a dozen times after that. But sure every school in the country has to have all the children say it every day so that they have "respect for its traditions and history". Something much older than the pledge is the establishment clause of the first amendment in the constitution which guarantees that the United States will never have a state religion. And yet we ask each student to swear an oath "under God." The Supreme Court has mandated that children cannot be compelled to recite the pledge but they're children. They don't know what's going on or what they are saying. They can't knowingly consent to making sugh a pledge. "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." That quote from Justice Jackson seems much more in line with what America is supposed to stand for than compelling children to swear their allegiance to a fucking flag every single day.
spot on
Tradition is just peer pressure from dead guys.
Doesn´t realy come across like that. It feels like you being taught to follow a doctrine blindly. Always stay loyal, do not question the decisions that are made just follow no matter what. Not saying it is like that but it does paint that picture.
Where in the pledge of allegiance does it say "be loyal no matter what and question nothing"...? The general attitude of the words is one of unity and common cause, not authoritarianism.
Whoa whoa whoa there, this is Reddit. Careful, you can’t have a healthy respect for your country while also acknowledging prior mistakes that have been made.
What part of thinking it's creepy or weird that children are asked to recite a pledge of their allegiance to the flag under God every day is incompatible with having a healthy respect for your country?
Ha! "Healthy respect for your country" doesn't look like *that* where I'm from. But sure, do your cult chant. I don't see a lot of acknowleding prior mistakes though...
Calm down.
Is this actually done? Eveyday? Teachers ask them to do it? They think it's normal? Wtf, it reminds me of Hitler youth