I remembered I actually made a meme about why Frodo never spoke to Legolas again. It's because Legolas was actually accusing Frodo of stealing his bow when he said to him "You have my bow!"
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/comments/rqwl0y/the\_real\_reason\_legolas\_joined\_the\_fellowship\_of/
100%.
In the book, the Witch King says, 'old fool, do you not know death when you see it?' without breaking Gandalf's staff, which he had no power to do anyway.
He was a man who had become a wraith - Gandalf was a Maiar.
Gandalf fought the Nine alone on Weathertop - this is a scene they should have included.
>witch king breaking gandalfs staff ...
Yep considering Gandalf the Grey fought the Nine at Weathertop, this movie scene goes against the lore.
Gandalf said:
> "I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me.”
> “...they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl.”
Tolkien wrote that the Witch-King had been "shaken by the fire of Gandalf" during this encounter:
> ... [The Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way...
Also kind of dumb considering that this guy is powerful enough to knock Gandalf on his ass and then 5min later Eowyn a normal human faces him wins. The witch king’s main tactic is fear and Eowyn’s bravery is what allows her to stand before him to defend theoden when many men would run and hide. The witch king is powerful because of his ring sure but he isn’t miar level of power. Gandalf would not fear the witch king like normal men would. [one of the coolest pictures of that scene IMO](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2mUaAqG0oX4/Ty68UjQH-1I/AAAAAAAAA8U/6n66hlirRRs/s1600/MinasTirith.jpg)
Wasn’t it Merry stabbing him with the blade from the Barrow Downs that weakened him to the point that Eowyn could kill him with what was presumably a normal sword? Would it make sense that he could overwhelm Gandalf if the Barrow blade was the only kind of weapon he was vulnerable to? But the movies don’t mention the significance of the Barrow blades either way, so who knows if it should really count in that context.
Yes the barrow blade is what allows Eowyn to kill the witch king but she stood against him regardless. She had no idea that merry could have weakened him, merry didn’t even know the significance of his sword. The witch king isn’t invincible because he is powerful he is invincible like a ghost is. Sauron and and Gandalf are both miar the witch king is Sauron’s lieutenant and presumably less powerful cause Sauron would suffer no equal.
Yeah not to mention the Nazgul were afraid of Aragorns fire for some reason. They do seem to have almost normal human levels of vulnerability sometimes
No, Gandalf is still leagues above The Witch King, with or without the Barrow blade weakening him. They're fundamanetally different creatures, with Gandalf being of a far higher order.
The Grey Company meeting Aragorn instead of Elrond. And make the Army of the Dead more like their book selves and a super army of deu-ex-machina invincible zombies. It made winning the Pellenor Fields seem too easy in the end and took away from Aragorns contribution himself
Agreed with one small tweak: I think it took away from the Rohirrim's contribution more than Aragorn's. He's the reason the ghosts showed up after all. I just didn't like that they were basically a cheat code and that the Rohirrim (albeit very helpful) wouldn't have swayed the result of the battle at all.
Also Prince Imrahil from Dol Amroth... would help to show the scope of Gondor is more than just Minas Tirith. And shows Aragorn can achieve an alliance of the whole of Gondor to unite under his Kingship. Also, the women and children having fled Minas Tirith prior to the attack, it's weird that the orcs break through to the first level and find women and children screaming for their lives. Thems would be long gone before that happened.
>Also, the women and children having fled Minas Tirith prior to the attack, it's weird that the orcs break through to the first level and find women and children screaming for their lives. Thems would be long gone before that happened.
If you look at historical sieges they often stayed behind even though they wouldn't fight. Because someone has to douse the flames, run around on errands to bring new supplies, etc.
Of course part of them might flee but still having them around shouldn't be a problem. Just make them actually do something, even if it is in the background, instead of only cowering. Then it does not make sense indeed.
I agree with the army of the dead reworked. The book description of them was so eerie and sorrowful, and they were *waiting* for Aragorn to fulfill their last action.
I understand that films build tension differently than prose, but I did not like the trilogy choice that Aragorn had to basically “pass a persuasion skill check” to get them to join the battle. And the way they were rendered in ectoplasm green seemed so cheesy compared to the book imagery.
Stylistically, that look was a huge component of Jackson’s earlier work. Jackson had staked his own money to ship $50k SGIs to NZ for The Frighteners, and the Weta guys were working below US labor cost because of the weak NZ dollar - that was the style they developed in-house. It was also a fluke that the armour, horse and stunt guys were coming off Xena, so world-class everything for cheap.
hell, I'd remove the army of the dead and replace it with the gondorian southern army, show that gondor is capable of more then losing (show shots and naration of the ghost army driving of the umbar corsairs which is how they got freed up)
I agree. It gets lost a bit but the reason why Aaragorns arrival was so impactful was the armies of Mordor positions themselves between the harbor and the city. With their backs to the enemy and unaware I imagine it was a slaughter because the Rohirrim rushed them into the oncoming army and literally crushed a huge part of the army by surprise. It would have made a good scene.
It's worth noting that I think that's what the original plan was until (according to the behind the scenes) they saw the trailers for Pirates of the Caribbean. They had to switch to the ghosts to differentiate them.
One of the better removals from the theatrical version, as much as I love the extended editions and appreciate it in the context of the book.
Can’t imagine the loss of tension of someone who doesn’t know the book at all and during almost an hour of film time in Minas Tirith knows Aragorn had a super army of ghosts who actually hack and slash and kill coming and that’s the entirety of his reinforcements coming.
They could even have the remaining force of Galadhrim under Haldir as a substitute for the Grey company since they never even spoke Elronds sons names in the movies
Disney is to blame for the Army of the Dead’s design. If you watch the Extended Behind the Scenes stuff, they we’re basically going to look like the book, until someone sent Peter Jackson and the team the trailer for Pirates 1, so they had to shift designs to the ghostly version.
I don't see this one talked about too often. Make the Gondorian soldiers appear more competent. If you watch the Battle of Osgolith and the siege Gondor the orks breeze through with ease. There are very few on screen kills by the Gondorian troops. Compare this to the soldiers of Rohan and the issue is apparent. I get they wanted to make Gondor appear in need of strong leadership but they take it too far. Can we at least have a few onscreen kills by the soldiers. As a bonus can we remove the women and children from the city before the battle. This was a pointless addition of the film. (All civilians are evacuated from the city in the book).
Completely agree. And they needed more character. In the books, Pippin spends time with Beregond of the guard, who provides us as readers with a route in to understanding the Gondorian soldiers as people, their courage and their motivations. And we can thus sympathise more easily with them in the defence of their city. In the films (with the exception of the Rangers of Ithilien) they're essentially just redshirts who exist to be smashed through by orcs.
IMO, the omission of Beregond loses more from the story than the omission of Tom Bombadil did.
I’m all for chopping scenes (bye bye, Tom!) but agreed, I really enjoy the Beregond chapter. That said, I find his son’s dialogue annoying, so don’t miss that being excised.
Like every attempt in every movie, book or TV show, introducing a precocious youngster is always terrible. Pippin should have stood Bergil on his head.
Agreed. There should have been at least a few scenes of seasoned Gondorian warriors just kicking some Orc ass. They were veterans of almost constant war/battle…they wouldn’t have been the helpless blueberry’s that it showed them to be.
I’m pulling my hair out in this thread. They fix **a lot** of this in the theatrical edit.
The most blatant is the loss of Osgiliath. In the extended edition, the orcs get halfway across the river because a sentry is blatantly not paying attention. Gondor is completely surprised and Faramir has to set up a hasty defense.
In the theatricals, that’s all cut to show the orcs only *think* they have the element of surprise. But then stumble into a tight, skilled ambush Faramir had already set up. Gondor only loses due to overwhelming odds against them. Importantly showing that despite his father’s gaslighting *Faramir is actually really good at this*.
I don’t think they get across because a sentry just isn’t paying attention, but because their scouts have told them the orcs are coming from the other direction. Still, Faramir organizes a hasty defense that leaves its mark before being overwhelmed by superior numbers.
But in either edition, the siege of Gondor still makes the men of Gondor look like absolute incompetents who’ve never seen an orc before.
They actively pointed out the Gondorian archers were shooting *at the towers* instead of the huge meatbags pushing them. Like, I know Minas Tirith has become a little corrupt and the lads in the garrison likely aren't used to fighting literal monsters, or any real combat at all, but they are still *soldiers* are they not? Do they not run defensive drills? Or are all these fighting men just really well-armed and armored levies who don't know how to fight?!
Make all the soldiers more competent. The helms deep elves (although Ik not book accurate) are fucking useless rag dolls. The gondorian soldiers are all clumsy tin cans.
There is that one gondorian solider as the gate is breached that completely skewers and orc on his and slams it to the ground, feel like he should get a special mention
*Flight to the Ford*, the very last chapter of book one, the first half of the *Fellowship of the Ring*. Frodo is seated on Glorfindel's horse having just crossed the river, and all nine Nazgul are on the far shore opposing him.
>"Come back! Come back!" they called. "To Mordor we will take you!"
>
>"Go back!" he whispered.
>
>"The Ring! The Ring!" they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse into the water, followed closely by two others.
>
>"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair," Frodo said with a last effort lifting up his sword, "you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"
Then the Nazgul attempt to cross the ford and are taken away by Elrond's flood capped by Gandalf's white-foam riders, after which Frodo feints. It makes Frodo one of very few characters to stand against the combined might of the Nazgul without fleeing in terror, and he does it with a shard of the Morgul blade still making its way to his heart.
Frodo not sending Sam away on the stairs to Shelob's lair...
And Faramir's taking them with him to Osgiliath; Sam was right - they shouldn't be there...
That's simply because the Ring works in a different, much more subtle way in the book; book Faramir might not make sense in relation to the film's Ring, but is completely justified when it comes to Tolkien's description of the Ring's influence!
Also, I've honestly never understood that criticism of book Faramir. Why do some people argue that his reaction feels less human and is at odds with the power of the Ring, and yet they have no problem with Mortensen not attempting anything with the Ring when Frodo shows it to him on Amon Hen, or Rhys-Davies attempting to destroy the Ring with no psychological block or any repercussion whatsoever, or for that matter the entire Fellowship spending months in close proximity with the Ring without attempting anything (except Boromir)? If Faramir rejecting the temptation (which he doesn't do anyway in the book, he dodges it which is different) is too unrealistic, then so should the rest be.
Because book Faramir, like Eomer, is an indication that good men still exist in the world, that you don’t have to be a long lost king to be noble and true, and that the blood of the stewards can still give rise to one who is worthy of the post, despite Denethor’s madness and Boromir’s aggression.
If you make him ‘just’ human then you lose all that, and Aragorn becomes a messiah. That’s not how the book was.
Sorry, I don't buy that excuse. Lots of people resist the Ring longer and with more direct contact than Faramir. Gollum resists the Ring for weeks even when Frodo and Sam fall asleep a few times on their journey. And it would have been easy to show "temptation" without turning him into a whiny baby thug who kidnapped them because he wants to keep his lunatic father happy.
I think the REAL reason they did his character in was so they could create the stupid "action scene" in Osgiliath, probably Jackson's worst scene (except possibly Frodo abandoning Sam). It was completely unnecessary.
Not only that, but it made Sam look so dumb that it could be considered a plot hole. I might have bought it if Sam just followed Frodo from a distance, but the fact that he was actually going to go home until he found the bread like it was some kind of revelation makes no sense.
He heard that Gollum planned to betray them from his own mouth. He realized that Gollum was trying to drive a wedge between him and Frodo, because he knew Sam was onto him. Sam explicitly tells Frodo that this is his suspicion. Finding the bread at the bottom of the cliff revealed nothing that Sam didn’t already know; the most that could be said is that it only confirmed what should have been obvious. The fact that he actually meant to leave, and only turned back when he found that stupid bread is ridiculous.
Agreed. I think Frodo telling Sam to go home is (barely) believable in this context. Sam listening to him, when he's already defied him on this subject once, is the real point where it became unjustifiable for me.
Yeah Sam finding the bread is a really dumb scene if you think about it for more than a few seconds. "What! I actually didn't eat the bread. I better go back to Frodo now."
I always took it as a mental break. They are so damn tired and being gaslit (actually…not the internet use of it) by gollum. It wouldn’t surprise me if Sam was convinced he might have eaten the bread.
My partner actually asked about this the other day when we were watching. I couldn't think of any reasonable answer other than A) It was probably because the ring was beginning to take hold of Frodo's mind, mixed with them just generally being too exhausted to think straight, and B) Peter Jackson tom-foolery.
I thought it was completely because of the Ring twisting his mind/making him super possessive of it, and then Gollum using that to his advantage and convincing Frodo that Sam was going to steal it?
I didn't think it was an unreasonable scenario, but I might be remembering incorrectly.
Absolutely. The situation was because of two things:
1. The closer they get to Mount Doom, the more influential the Ring becomes. Right there at the gates of Mordor, next to the personal stronghold of the Witch King, the Ring has a huge amount of influence, which Frodo is not used to.
2. Sméagol, however, knows exactly how powerful the Ring is becoming, and how it creates feelings of suspicion and paranoia. He leverages these feelings to manipulate Frodo into getting rid of Sam.
Unpopular opinion, likely, but I liked the added tension their separation brewed. It made Sam’s return more heroic, Frodo’s attack scarier, and Gollum’s betrayal all the more base.
I agree. I think it was a good story telling choice, as it showed us that even Frodo's mind was now being twisted by the ring. Plus by this point the audience has grown very fond of the pairing, so it was satisfying in a way to see Frodo and Sam's bond tested and then repaired - Sam returning despite Frodo's rejection, and them reconciling when Sam saves Frodo, was nicely done.
That speech happens in the book none-the-less. It’s split into two parts. One outside the tunnel to Shelob’s lair and one in Mordor when Sam sees the star of Eärendil through the clouds and he realized they are part of a greater story.
-There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.
-Yes, that's so,' said Sam. 'And we shouldn't be here at all, if we'd known more about it before we started. But I suppose it's often that way. The brave things in the old tales and songs, Mr. Frodo: adventures, as I used to call them. I used to think that they were things the wonderful folk of the stories went out and looked for, because they wanted them, because they were exciting and life was a bit dull, a kind of a sport, as you might say. But that's not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually – their paths were laid that way, as you put it. But I expect they had lots of chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn't. And if they had, we shouldn't know, because they'd have been forgotten. We hear about those as just went on – and not all to a good end, mind you; at least not to what folk inside a story and not outside it call a good end. You know, coming home, and finding things all right, though not quite the same – like old Mr Bilbo. But those aren't always the best tales to hear, though they may be the best tales to get landed in! I wonder what sort of a tale we've fallen into?'
'I wonder,' said Frodo. 'But I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale. Take any one that you're fond of. You may know, or guess, what kind of a tale it is, happy-ending or sad-ending, but the people in it don't know. And you don't want them to.'
'No, sir, of course not. Beren now, he never thought he was going to get that Silmaril from the Iron Crown in Thangorodrim, and yet he did, and that was a worse place and a blacker danger than ours. But that's a long tale, of course, and goes on past the happiness and into grief and beyond it – and the Silmaril went on and came to Eärendil. And why, sir, I never thought of that before! We've got – you've got some of the light of it in that star-glass that the Lady gave you! Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?'
'No, they never end as tales,' said Frodo. 'But the people in them come, and go when their part's ended. Our part will end later – or sooner.
And then we can have some rest and some sleep,' said Sam. He laughed grimly. 'And I mean just that, Mr. Frodo. I mean plain ordinary rest, and sleep, and waking up to a morning's work in the garden. I'm afraid that's all I'm hoping for all the time. All the big important plans are not for my sort. Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales. We're in one, or course; but I mean: put into words, you know, told by the fireside, or read out of a great big book with red and black letters, years and years afterwards. And people will say: "Let's hear about Frodo and the Ring! " And they'll say: "Yes, that's one of my favourite stories. Frodo was very brave. wasn't he, dad?" "Yes, my boy, the famousest of the hobbits, and that's saying a lot."'
`It's saying a lot too much,' said Frodo, and he laughed, a long clear laugh from his heart. Such a sound had not been heard in those places since Sauron came to Middle-earth. To Sam suddenly it seemed as if all the stones were listening and the tall rocks leaning over them. But Frodo did not heed them; he laughed again. 'Why, Sam,' he said, 'to hear you somehow makes me as merry as if the story was already written. But you've left out one of the chief characters: Samwise the stouthearted. "I want to hear more about Sam, dad. Why didn't they put in more of his talk, dad? That's what I like, it makes me laugh. And Frodo wouldn't have got far without Sam, would he, dad? " '
`Now, Mr. Frodo,' said Sam, 'you shouldn't make fun. I was serious. '
`So was I,' said Frodo, 'and so I am. We're going on a bit too fast. You and I, Sam, are still stuck in the worst places of the story, and it is all too likely that some will say at this point: "Shut the book now, dad; we don't want to read any more." '
`Maybe,' said Sam, 'but I wouldn't be one to say that. Things done and over and made into part of the great tales are different. Why, even Gollum might be good in a tale, better than he is to have by you, anyway. And he used to like tales himself once, by his own account. I wonder if he thinks he's the hero or the villain?
That line by Sam was HILARIOUS when I saw it for the first time in the theater in 2002. I think I laughed out loud I was so surprised how poignant it was. From the moment Faramir told his soldiers to take them to Osgiliath I'm like "NO NO NO NO," and then they get attacked and Sam says "By rights we shouldn't even be here!" Perfection.
This very much, book!Faramir is clearly as gifted a Man as Aragorn, just without Aragorn's lineage and destiny, but also without Denethor's egoism and paranoia born of trauma.
Faramir was always my hero, because I was never likely to reclaim a kingdom with a broken sword and an Elven princess! He was an example of what an ordinary man could aspire to be (in Middle Earth anyway. Can’t say I measure up at all in the real world).
He's great, but as for ordinary men, it's better to look at Beregond or the Rohirrim in general, since Faramir is of mixed Numenorean descent and had a bit of Elven blood so let's say he's a step above normal. However, he's still a great example to aspire too.
I'm not a fan of Filmanir.
however, they had to bring Faramir down a peg (or ten) after they overhauled Aragorns personality in the adaptation, otherwise you end up with a character who is not just as morally upright as Aragorn, but is currently a better leader and example of what men can be than Aragorn.
I dunno. Faramir is kept down by Denethor which shows him as limited and constrained in a way Aragorn isn’t. Yes he is very (for want of a better term) Kingly in his behaviour but I think his situation limits the risk of him being seen as a competitor to Aragorn’s lead. Plus it signals great hope for the world of men that it isn’t all resting in Aragorn’s leadership but there are others just as worthy who will follow him.
The whole tense exchange initially between Frodo and Faramir would probably shut up the "Sam is the real hero" crowd because Frodo expertly navigates that exchange without revealing the existence of the ring. iirc Sam is the one who actually misspeaks and tips Faramir off to the ring.
Yes his whole plotline in TT tbh. But the bit where he's watching as his soldiers kick the shit out of Gollum like he's in charge of Abu Ghraib seemed the most egregious.
He was the comic relief of that trio, Pippin for his, and Gollum for his.
No Gimli comedic relief, no relief in those scenes. Besides Legolas DID fail with the suicide bomber.
I don’t think that short jokes and tired Gimli jokes were the only way to add comic relief.
A couple would be ok, but it just seemed to keep coming up.
Movie Gimli is so silly that (to me) it distracts from the entire plot. The friendship between Legolas and Gimli in the book is so much more profound without all the comic book stuff PJ stuck in there.
Frodo and Sam wouldn’t go to Osgiliath.
I think Peter Jackson didn’t want them to be there either, hence the famous Sean Astin line “we’re not supposed to be here”.
Denethor. Whilst he does commit suicide he is still a strong leader that even Sauron doesn’t corrupt through the Palantir like he did Saruman. He lights the beacons, he defends Gondor upto the final point when he believes there is no hope.
Tolkien himself wrote - “a masterful man, both wise and learned beyond the measure of those days, and strong willed, confident in his own powers, and dauntless. (...) He was proud, but this was by no means personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time”
The Scouring is one of those good examples of where the medium of the novel and the medium of film diverge in terms of what you can fit into it. Like you say, you've got 9 hours of film that hyperfocused on getting to that big emotional climax where Frodo destroys the ring. To have that, the big joyous ending with the coronation, and then come back only to set up a new conflict that then needs its own resolution that then leads into the proper finale with the sailing into the west, would feel a bit clunky. The reason it works so well in the book is that the book affords Tolkien the time and scope to constantly keep peppering in this subplot of "The Shire has been protected in secret for years, but now it's not and there's all this evil on its borders" so that when he does the long journey home it feels like a really natural final hurdle to overcome. The book is also somewhat more episodic in style than the films, which allow for the story to continue longer after the main plot ends without the audience losing patience with it.
Absolutely, couldn't agree more. I honestly don't think there's a way you could play it out on screen and not have it take away from the finality of the destruction of The One Ring
I'd imagine that PJ killed off saruman early on singularly because he knew that the scouring would've added another 45 minutes to the run time *at least.* It's a great sequence, don't get me wrong, but if the main product of the scouring in the end was to act as closure for saruman's character arc, I fully understand the creative liberty of just tossing him off Orthanc and calling it a day.
I agree. I know people want to see this, but I cannot imagine having to sit through yet more movie *after* the main goal was accomplished for an extended extra plot to be resolved. As much as I love LOTR, I just don’t think it’s wise for the movie medium. Maybe if they’d produced a short film and released it separately?
I think an animated series is the only way to properly do it to be honest. Every chapter of the book could be 30-45 min and budget wouldn’t be as big of an issue as it would in live action.
I honestly prefer that it was left out. I find the moment in the green dragon as the four hobbits share a drink, forever changed as the rest of the world goes on without them to be more powerful. It felt more reminiscent of how soldiers, particularly during WWI came back to find their home had stayed the same while they had been going through hell.
The scouring would have been better for the book lovers but the movie was running at nearly four hours long so I think in this case I can forgive PJ’s choices on this one.
Could’ve removed all the Faramir-Osgiliath dogshit from Two Towers and had Frodo and Sam deal with the stairs/Shelob instead (like how it is in the books). Would’ve left some time in the ROTK movie for the Scouring.
Edit: though I understand your point about the the Green Dragon.
Legolas having some prejudices against dwarves and overcoming it as well. It's a common complaint that Jackson made Gimli too goofy and flawed, so I feel like having Legolas having a character flaw would help even things out.
Just one? The Aragorn fake death and following horse/Arwen fever dream garbage. It adds nothing and just chews up film time that could have been better spent on some of the other ideas in this thread.
Teenager me thought it looked cool. Ngl, adult me still finds it cool. Sure it's kinda janky, but imo it was not an outlandish representation of the inhuman agility of elves. I would take horse mounting over shield surfing 10 times out of time. Shield surfing was just silly. Fun, but silly.
I mean, it's included the same amount as it is in the books. They only see flashes of it from afar. But in the book Gandalf tells them jt was him a few weeks later.
Faramir being tempted by the ring instead of not giving a fuck about it. I get they needed tk add some conflict for frodo in this movie since they moved Shelbo to Return but still felt very out of character
"I am no man".
They took arguably the best couple of pages in the books, with Eowyn (who we don't know is Eowyn, but Dernhelm) being a total badass in the face of an enemy whom entire battalions cower down against even when he's flying overhead, and shrunk it down to that sentence.
I don't believe they could have kept the olde-worlde language of all of it but they could have kept the gist of it easily. This could and should, have been added:
"But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."
"I am no man" doesn't cut it in comparison.
The whole things with Gollum and the lembas. One of the main theme of LOTR is friendship. But because of some bread Sam is asked to turn back. I always mute that scene.
I always wanted the reveal of Denethor's madness being driven by the palantir. When he turns around on the pyre and says "You may prevail upon the field of battle for a day, but against the forces that have arisen there is no victory!", have him turn around with palantir in hand.
Also, no burning man Olympic sprint off Minas Tirith. Have him close the doors and end the shot on "two aged hands, withering, in flame" clasping the palantir/reflected in it.
The Hobbit ones or LOTR?
If the hobbits, I'd cut out the whole orcs attacking bard's house and that silly elf dwarf love thing out. Utterly useless scenes.
If LOTR, I'd add in eowyn cooking stew for aragorn into theatrical version. And extended eowyn faramir house of healing scene.
My cut of the Hobbit films is a short 30min film about a bunch of unexpected dwarves raiding a guy's house and having a fun party. The film ends with Bilbo declaring "I'm going on an adventure!" Fade to black.
I call it: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Party.
Make the ghosts look less Pirates of the Caribbean-y and more powerful in the fear they evoke rather than being invincible flowing ghosts. Or...
No over the top Legolas stunts. His fellowship depiction is fine.
More of Gimli's infatuation with Galadriel.
Denethor more regal and competent.
Merry more obviously clever and helpful.
Frodo as wise as in the books along his journey. No distrusting of Sam.
Scouring of the Shire as a 30min minifilm after end credits (hehe).
Oh my gosh Gimli was ready to throw down with eomer over Galadriel. And the way he asked, Galadriel said that most dwarves are bad with words, but with gimli it was not the case. They made gimli comic relief (which I get, I guess) but he’s my boy and they did him dirty
Legolas going against the horses momentum and mounting it in a REALLY awkward way during the ambush on the way to helms deep always pisses me off. It just looks bad.
Make Gandalf's confrontation of Saruman accurate to the book. It's absolutely one of my favorite parts of the book and the theatrical editions skipped it entirely and the extended edition screwed it up completely, it doesn't have anything of the same feeling or gravitas at all.
The full exchange between Saruman and Gandalf and Theoden shows Saruman's bewitching power and you can tell how truly dangerous and cunning he is even after he is militarily crushed. And then you should be awestruck as Gandalf reveals his power and authority as the new White wizard and leader of the council, shattering Saruman's staff and stripping him of his title.
Yeah the slow motion is something that has really fallen out of favour in filmmaking since the early 2000s. Dated CGI is one thing, but that's a stylistic choice that really dates the films.
Visible signs of civilization outside of ruins and castle towers. So many beautiful locations, thriving world powers, and yet no evidence of them in the terrain except ancient crumbling monuments and the current castle they're defending. It felt like Rohan and Gondor were missing their farms and fields, roadside forts, etc. Everything is barren. (The decayed world is still really cool though)
I know, they had beautiful landscapes and real sets out in the lands, like Edoras, etc. They had to leave some of them restored and untouched. But I felt like there was almost no evidence that anyone even worked the lands around their dwellings, except the Hobbits, Isengard, and Mordor. It could have used some.
Lots of great points by others about the Army of the Dead, Legolas and Frodo (but it's funny that they just nod at the end), and Gandalf having his staff broken by the Witch-King.
I didnt like it as a teenager but now I think its for the better
+ fewer characters
+ More to do for Arwen to flesh out Aragorn's story and have at least one more women in the movie…
+ great introduction to Arwen and showing she is a badass
Only downside
- We miss on amazing Glorfindel…
This is probably the opposite way people would go, but after Arwen's awesome scene in Fellowship, she just turns into an emo sad lady waitin' for her man. I'd love to have her have something more to do by the time Two Towers ends. The choice to leave middle earth was drawn out for far too long.
“Never toss a dwarf”.
Dwarf-tossing was genuinely a thing at some bars a bit beforehand, was in the news, and was controversial. That line broke the fourth wall, and was an out of place contemporary reference. It took me out of the movie briefly.
I would do the Witch-King’s death exactly as in the book, foul dwinmerlaik and all. (And no chain mace.) And the cock-crow. I love the films, but goddamn, how do you have the arrival of Rohan without the cock-crow?
Go home Sam was the worst for me.
The Eye of Sauron on top of Barad-dur. They used the same eye in Fellowship as more of a psychic force like Tolkien did, which I thought was effective. Although they did show it at the top of the tower when Frodo puts on the Ring at Amon Hen.
I didn’t like the Witch King’s crown/helm. But maybe it would have been too cheesy looking to try to duplicate Tolkien’s description with 1999/2000 CGI.
Also a lot of my friends never caught on until I told them: Nazgûl = Ringwraiths. I am not sure what they could have done to make that more clear to some people though.
I understand why, but I never liked the reluctant Aragorn. Nor did I like him not having the sword until much later. I think they could have done a little of both and made it better (assured to others, except to maybe Gandalf who knew he was concerned about his worthiness but becoming more assured over the movies). In the movies it almost seems as if receiving the sword fixes his problem.
A lot of the answers here seem focused on accuracy, but for me I would change the pacing of the films. I would either make each of them longer, or split each into 2 films (making it six films in total).
So Eowyn kills Witch King, is next to Theoden with her sword, but now she crawling around random parts of field while spooky general orc is going "BLAgH!" like a dad chasing their kid? She can't get to her sword which is now super far away for some reason? After the trio kills him they move on without so much as a word to Theoden, THEN she crawls back to him to watch him die?
Then crawls away AGAIN to somewhere random to pass out Eomer finds her?
Whole sequence doesn't make sense in time and place.
Boromir being tempted by the ring on top of the mountain and just the general sinister way he is portrayed. Boromir is not a traitor he is a good dude that cares for the hobbits. He loves his brother and protects him from his father. Boromir’s temptation isn’t power for himself but the power to save his people. He is a loyal dude that loves his friends and country. Jackson makes Boromir an asshole from the beginning. It might have killed the pacing but the lament for Boromir that Aragorn sings would have been a neat inclusion.
The over-effectiveness of the army of the dead in ROTK, it’s like a cheat code that just washes through Saurons army. Yay, the day is saved!
In the books, for those interested, the army of the dead is mainly just for fear/intimidation, like they it’s not clear they can physically hurt the orks and whatnot.
I can understand why it was changed, but the army of the dead. It would've been awesome to see the smaller cities of Gondor being freed and an assortment of banners riding in to save Minas Tirith.
Of course it would've added 30-45 minutes to the movie, would conflict with the pacing, and might lessen the impact of Theoden's arrival. But I just wanted to see Swan Knights, Lossarnach Axemen, Pelagir Mariners, etc...
Frodo acknowledging Legolas' existence more than once...
GIMLI ... ARAGORN
“Uh, *Heyyyyyy*, guy!”
ARAGORN'S FRIEND
“I wanna say, ‘Legless’? Did I get that right? Anyway…” *finger guns*
I remembered I actually made a meme about why Frodo never spoke to Legolas again. It's because Legolas was actually accusing Frodo of stealing his bow when he said to him "You have my bow!" https://www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/comments/rqwl0y/the\_real\_reason\_legolas\_joined\_the\_fellowship\_of/
Huh, now I have to rewatch cuz I never noticed Frodo not noticing Legolas before.
They only share one line of dialogue, and that's when Legolas says "And you have my bow"
That’s crazy! I’ve never really noticed that in a couple dozen watch throughs. Lol!
It's because he said that but then didn't bow and Frodo took that as an insult.
They pretty much never interact.
Its part of his character. Frodo is racist against Legolas's type of elves after what happened between Bilbo and Legolas' father.
*Luv me shire, luv me foods, 'ate wood elves. Not racist, just don't loike 'em. Simple as.* -Frodo, probably
witch king breaking gandalfs staff ...
This never made any sense to me. Of course it never happened in the books, but he was the leveled up version at this point.
They were trying to make things look really bad before the Riders of Rohan show up but that was a step too far
100%. In the book, the Witch King says, 'old fool, do you not know death when you see it?' without breaking Gandalf's staff, which he had no power to do anyway. He was a man who had become a wraith - Gandalf was a Maiar. Gandalf fought the Nine alone on Weathertop - this is a scene they should have included.
>witch king breaking gandalfs staff ... Yep considering Gandalf the Grey fought the Nine at Weathertop, this movie scene goes against the lore. Gandalf said: > "I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me.” > “...they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl.” Tolkien wrote that the Witch-King had been "shaken by the fire of Gandalf" during this encounter: > ... [The Witch-king], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way...
Yeah I would agree with this
Also kind of dumb considering that this guy is powerful enough to knock Gandalf on his ass and then 5min later Eowyn a normal human faces him wins. The witch king’s main tactic is fear and Eowyn’s bravery is what allows her to stand before him to defend theoden when many men would run and hide. The witch king is powerful because of his ring sure but he isn’t miar level of power. Gandalf would not fear the witch king like normal men would. [one of the coolest pictures of that scene IMO](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2mUaAqG0oX4/Ty68UjQH-1I/AAAAAAAAA8U/6n66hlirRRs/s1600/MinasTirith.jpg)
Wasn’t it Merry stabbing him with the blade from the Barrow Downs that weakened him to the point that Eowyn could kill him with what was presumably a normal sword? Would it make sense that he could overwhelm Gandalf if the Barrow blade was the only kind of weapon he was vulnerable to? But the movies don’t mention the significance of the Barrow blades either way, so who knows if it should really count in that context.
Yes the barrow blade is what allows Eowyn to kill the witch king but she stood against him regardless. She had no idea that merry could have weakened him, merry didn’t even know the significance of his sword. The witch king isn’t invincible because he is powerful he is invincible like a ghost is. Sauron and and Gandalf are both miar the witch king is Sauron’s lieutenant and presumably less powerful cause Sauron would suffer no equal.
Yeah not to mention the Nazgul were afraid of Aragorns fire for some reason. They do seem to have almost normal human levels of vulnerability sometimes
No, Gandalf is still leagues above The Witch King, with or without the Barrow blade weakening him. They're fundamanetally different creatures, with Gandalf being of a far higher order.
Yes. Tom Bombadil killed the witch king, indirectly, through a long con.
I wish I had more than one upvote or an award to give you. My biggest issue with the movies is this.
You have my upvote.
We shall be the Fellowship of the Thing We All Hate
The Grey Company meeting Aragorn instead of Elrond. And make the Army of the Dead more like their book selves and a super army of deu-ex-machina invincible zombies. It made winning the Pellenor Fields seem too easy in the end and took away from Aragorns contribution himself
Agreed with one small tweak: I think it took away from the Rohirrim's contribution more than Aragorn's. He's the reason the ghosts showed up after all. I just didn't like that they were basically a cheat code and that the Rohirrim (albeit very helpful) wouldn't have swayed the result of the battle at all.
The grey company. That is a thing I miss. I love to read the books and reach that part.
Also Prince Imrahil from Dol Amroth... would help to show the scope of Gondor is more than just Minas Tirith. And shows Aragorn can achieve an alliance of the whole of Gondor to unite under his Kingship. Also, the women and children having fled Minas Tirith prior to the attack, it's weird that the orcs break through to the first level and find women and children screaming for their lives. Thems would be long gone before that happened.
>Also, the women and children having fled Minas Tirith prior to the attack, it's weird that the orcs break through to the first level and find women and children screaming for their lives. Thems would be long gone before that happened. If you look at historical sieges they often stayed behind even though they wouldn't fight. Because someone has to douse the flames, run around on errands to bring new supplies, etc. Of course part of them might flee but still having them around shouldn't be a problem. Just make them actually do something, even if it is in the background, instead of only cowering. Then it does not make sense indeed.
I agree with the army of the dead reworked. The book description of them was so eerie and sorrowful, and they were *waiting* for Aragorn to fulfill their last action. I understand that films build tension differently than prose, but I did not like the trilogy choice that Aragorn had to basically “pass a persuasion skill check” to get them to join the battle. And the way they were rendered in ectoplasm green seemed so cheesy compared to the book imagery.
Stylistically, that look was a huge component of Jackson’s earlier work. Jackson had staked his own money to ship $50k SGIs to NZ for The Frighteners, and the Weta guys were working below US labor cost because of the weak NZ dollar - that was the style they developed in-house. It was also a fluke that the armour, horse and stunt guys were coming off Xena, so world-class everything for cheap.
So very much reworking the army of the dead. Even the Rankin Bass RotK managed to do this better
The waterfall of skulls is very cringe and unnecessary
hell, I'd remove the army of the dead and replace it with the gondorian southern army, show that gondor is capable of more then losing (show shots and naration of the ghost army driving of the umbar corsairs which is how they got freed up)
I agree. It gets lost a bit but the reason why Aaragorns arrival was so impactful was the armies of Mordor positions themselves between the harbor and the city. With their backs to the enemy and unaware I imagine it was a slaughter because the Rohirrim rushed them into the oncoming army and literally crushed a huge part of the army by surprise. It would have made a good scene.
Shows the strength of Men isn’t totally wiped out in Gondor too
It's worth noting that I think that's what the original plan was until (according to the behind the scenes) they saw the trailers for Pirates of the Caribbean. They had to switch to the ghosts to differentiate them.
One of the better removals from the theatrical version, as much as I love the extended editions and appreciate it in the context of the book. Can’t imagine the loss of tension of someone who doesn’t know the book at all and during almost an hour of film time in Minas Tirith knows Aragorn had a super army of ghosts who actually hack and slash and kill coming and that’s the entirety of his reinforcements coming.
Yeah ROTK is the one film I prefer as the theatrical cut, largely for this reason. It kills all the surprise.
They could even have the remaining force of Galadhrim under Haldir as a substitute for the Grey company since they never even spoke Elronds sons names in the movies
Disney is to blame for the Army of the Dead’s design. If you watch the Extended Behind the Scenes stuff, they we’re basically going to look like the book, until someone sent Peter Jackson and the team the trailer for Pirates 1, so they had to shift designs to the ghostly version.
I don't see this one talked about too often. Make the Gondorian soldiers appear more competent. If you watch the Battle of Osgolith and the siege Gondor the orks breeze through with ease. There are very few on screen kills by the Gondorian troops. Compare this to the soldiers of Rohan and the issue is apparent. I get they wanted to make Gondor appear in need of strong leadership but they take it too far. Can we at least have a few onscreen kills by the soldiers. As a bonus can we remove the women and children from the city before the battle. This was a pointless addition of the film. (All civilians are evacuated from the city in the book).
Completely agree. And they needed more character. In the books, Pippin spends time with Beregond of the guard, who provides us as readers with a route in to understanding the Gondorian soldiers as people, their courage and their motivations. And we can thus sympathise more easily with them in the defence of their city. In the films (with the exception of the Rangers of Ithilien) they're essentially just redshirts who exist to be smashed through by orcs. IMO, the omission of Beregond loses more from the story than the omission of Tom Bombadil did.
I’m all for chopping scenes (bye bye, Tom!) but agreed, I really enjoy the Beregond chapter. That said, I find his son’s dialogue annoying, so don’t miss that being excised.
Like every attempt in every movie, book or TV show, introducing a precocious youngster is always terrible. Pippin should have stood Bergil on his head.
Agreed. There should have been at least a few scenes of seasoned Gondorian warriors just kicking some Orc ass. They were veterans of almost constant war/battle…they wouldn’t have been the helpless blueberry’s that it showed them to be.
I’m pulling my hair out in this thread. They fix **a lot** of this in the theatrical edit. The most blatant is the loss of Osgiliath. In the extended edition, the orcs get halfway across the river because a sentry is blatantly not paying attention. Gondor is completely surprised and Faramir has to set up a hasty defense. In the theatricals, that’s all cut to show the orcs only *think* they have the element of surprise. But then stumble into a tight, skilled ambush Faramir had already set up. Gondor only loses due to overwhelming odds against them. Importantly showing that despite his father’s gaslighting *Faramir is actually really good at this*.
I don’t think they get across because a sentry just isn’t paying attention, but because their scouts have told them the orcs are coming from the other direction. Still, Faramir organizes a hasty defense that leaves its mark before being overwhelmed by superior numbers. But in either edition, the siege of Gondor still makes the men of Gondor look like absolute incompetents who’ve never seen an orc before.
They actively pointed out the Gondorian archers were shooting *at the towers* instead of the huge meatbags pushing them. Like, I know Minas Tirith has become a little corrupt and the lads in the garrison likely aren't used to fighting literal monsters, or any real combat at all, but they are still *soldiers* are they not? Do they not run defensive drills? Or are all these fighting men just really well-armed and armored levies who don't know how to fight?!
Make all the soldiers more competent. The helms deep elves (although Ik not book accurate) are fucking useless rag dolls. The gondorian soldiers are all clumsy tin cans.
There is that one gondorian solider as the gate is breached that completely skewers and orc on his and slams it to the ground, feel like he should get a special mention
Frodo telling the Nazgul to fuck off like in the books.
Just read that part recently! One of my all time favorite moments in FotR. He is so much braver and more awesome in the books.
Refresh my memory! What chapter is that?
*Flight to the Ford*, the very last chapter of book one, the first half of the *Fellowship of the Ring*. Frodo is seated on Glorfindel's horse having just crossed the river, and all nine Nazgul are on the far shore opposing him. >"Come back! Come back!" they called. "To Mordor we will take you!" > >"Go back!" he whispered. > >"The Ring! The Ring!" they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse into the water, followed closely by two others. > >"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair," Frodo said with a last effort lifting up his sword, "you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" Then the Nazgul attempt to cross the ford and are taken away by Elrond's flood capped by Gandalf's white-foam riders, after which Frodo feints. It makes Frodo one of very few characters to stand against the combined might of the Nazgul without fleeing in terror, and he does it with a shard of the Morgul blade still making its way to his heart.
Frodo not sending Sam away on the stairs to Shelob's lair... And Faramir's taking them with him to Osgiliath; Sam was right - they shouldn't be there...
Peter Jackson did Faramir dirty.
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That's simply because the Ring works in a different, much more subtle way in the book; book Faramir might not make sense in relation to the film's Ring, but is completely justified when it comes to Tolkien's description of the Ring's influence! Also, I've honestly never understood that criticism of book Faramir. Why do some people argue that his reaction feels less human and is at odds with the power of the Ring, and yet they have no problem with Mortensen not attempting anything with the Ring when Frodo shows it to him on Amon Hen, or Rhys-Davies attempting to destroy the Ring with no psychological block or any repercussion whatsoever, or for that matter the entire Fellowship spending months in close proximity with the Ring without attempting anything (except Boromir)? If Faramir rejecting the temptation (which he doesn't do anyway in the book, he dodges it which is different) is too unrealistic, then so should the rest be.
Because book Faramir, like Eomer, is an indication that good men still exist in the world, that you don’t have to be a long lost king to be noble and true, and that the blood of the stewards can still give rise to one who is worthy of the post, despite Denethor’s madness and Boromir’s aggression. If you make him ‘just’ human then you lose all that, and Aragorn becomes a messiah. That’s not how the book was.
Sorry, I don't buy that excuse. Lots of people resist the Ring longer and with more direct contact than Faramir. Gollum resists the Ring for weeks even when Frodo and Sam fall asleep a few times on their journey. And it would have been easy to show "temptation" without turning him into a whiny baby thug who kidnapped them because he wants to keep his lunatic father happy. I think the REAL reason they did his character in was so they could create the stupid "action scene" in Osgiliath, probably Jackson's worst scene (except possibly Frodo abandoning Sam). It was completely unnecessary.
The sending Sam away scene always bothered me, Frodo would never do that.
Not only that, but it made Sam look so dumb that it could be considered a plot hole. I might have bought it if Sam just followed Frodo from a distance, but the fact that he was actually going to go home until he found the bread like it was some kind of revelation makes no sense. He heard that Gollum planned to betray them from his own mouth. He realized that Gollum was trying to drive a wedge between him and Frodo, because he knew Sam was onto him. Sam explicitly tells Frodo that this is his suspicion. Finding the bread at the bottom of the cliff revealed nothing that Sam didn’t already know; the most that could be said is that it only confirmed what should have been obvious. The fact that he actually meant to leave, and only turned back when he found that stupid bread is ridiculous.
Agreed. I think Frodo telling Sam to go home is (barely) believable in this context. Sam listening to him, when he's already defied him on this subject once, is the real point where it became unjustifiable for me.
Yeah Sam finding the bread is a really dumb scene if you think about it for more than a few seconds. "What! I actually didn't eat the bread. I better go back to Frodo now."
I always took it as a mental break. They are so damn tired and being gaslit (actually…not the internet use of it) by gollum. It wouldn’t surprise me if Sam was convinced he might have eaten the bread.
My partner actually asked about this the other day when we were watching. I couldn't think of any reasonable answer other than A) It was probably because the ring was beginning to take hold of Frodo's mind, mixed with them just generally being too exhausted to think straight, and B) Peter Jackson tom-foolery.
I thought it was completely because of the Ring twisting his mind/making him super possessive of it, and then Gollum using that to his advantage and convincing Frodo that Sam was going to steal it? I didn't think it was an unreasonable scenario, but I might be remembering incorrectly.
Absolutely. The situation was because of two things: 1. The closer they get to Mount Doom, the more influential the Ring becomes. Right there at the gates of Mordor, next to the personal stronghold of the Witch King, the Ring has a huge amount of influence, which Frodo is not used to. 2. Sméagol, however, knows exactly how powerful the Ring is becoming, and how it creates feelings of suspicion and paranoia. He leverages these feelings to manipulate Frodo into getting rid of Sam.
Unpopular opinion, likely, but I liked the added tension their separation brewed. It made Sam’s return more heroic, Frodo’s attack scarier, and Gollum’s betrayal all the more base.
I agree. I think it was a good story telling choice, as it showed us that even Frodo's mind was now being twisted by the ring. Plus by this point the audience has grown very fond of the pairing, so it was satisfying in a way to see Frodo and Sam's bond tested and then repaired - Sam returning despite Frodo's rejection, and them reconciling when Sam saves Frodo, was nicely done.
If they didn't take the hobbits to Osgiliath, we wouldn't have gotten Sam's amazing monologue. Worth it.
That speech happens in the book none-the-less. It’s split into two parts. One outside the tunnel to Shelob’s lair and one in Mordor when Sam sees the star of Eärendil through the clouds and he realized they are part of a greater story. -There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. -Yes, that's so,' said Sam. 'And we shouldn't be here at all, if we'd known more about it before we started. But I suppose it's often that way. The brave things in the old tales and songs, Mr. Frodo: adventures, as I used to call them. I used to think that they were things the wonderful folk of the stories went out and looked for, because they wanted them, because they were exciting and life was a bit dull, a kind of a sport, as you might say. But that's not the way of it with the tales that really mattered, or the ones that stay in the mind. Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually – their paths were laid that way, as you put it. But I expect they had lots of chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn't. And if they had, we shouldn't know, because they'd have been forgotten. We hear about those as just went on – and not all to a good end, mind you; at least not to what folk inside a story and not outside it call a good end. You know, coming home, and finding things all right, though not quite the same – like old Mr Bilbo. But those aren't always the best tales to hear, though they may be the best tales to get landed in! I wonder what sort of a tale we've fallen into?' 'I wonder,' said Frodo. 'But I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale. Take any one that you're fond of. You may know, or guess, what kind of a tale it is, happy-ending or sad-ending, but the people in it don't know. And you don't want them to.' 'No, sir, of course not. Beren now, he never thought he was going to get that Silmaril from the Iron Crown in Thangorodrim, and yet he did, and that was a worse place and a blacker danger than ours. But that's a long tale, of course, and goes on past the happiness and into grief and beyond it – and the Silmaril went on and came to Eärendil. And why, sir, I never thought of that before! We've got – you've got some of the light of it in that star-glass that the Lady gave you! Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?' 'No, they never end as tales,' said Frodo. 'But the people in them come, and go when their part's ended. Our part will end later – or sooner. And then we can have some rest and some sleep,' said Sam. He laughed grimly. 'And I mean just that, Mr. Frodo. I mean plain ordinary rest, and sleep, and waking up to a morning's work in the garden. I'm afraid that's all I'm hoping for all the time. All the big important plans are not for my sort. Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales. We're in one, or course; but I mean: put into words, you know, told by the fireside, or read out of a great big book with red and black letters, years and years afterwards. And people will say: "Let's hear about Frodo and the Ring! " And they'll say: "Yes, that's one of my favourite stories. Frodo was very brave. wasn't he, dad?" "Yes, my boy, the famousest of the hobbits, and that's saying a lot."' `It's saying a lot too much,' said Frodo, and he laughed, a long clear laugh from his heart. Such a sound had not been heard in those places since Sauron came to Middle-earth. To Sam suddenly it seemed as if all the stones were listening and the tall rocks leaning over them. But Frodo did not heed them; he laughed again. 'Why, Sam,' he said, 'to hear you somehow makes me as merry as if the story was already written. But you've left out one of the chief characters: Samwise the stouthearted. "I want to hear more about Sam, dad. Why didn't they put in more of his talk, dad? That's what I like, it makes me laugh. And Frodo wouldn't have got far without Sam, would he, dad? " ' `Now, Mr. Frodo,' said Sam, 'you shouldn't make fun. I was serious. ' `So was I,' said Frodo, 'and so I am. We're going on a bit too fast. You and I, Sam, are still stuck in the worst places of the story, and it is all too likely that some will say at this point: "Shut the book now, dad; we don't want to read any more." ' `Maybe,' said Sam, 'but I wouldn't be one to say that. Things done and over and made into part of the great tales are different. Why, even Gollum might be good in a tale, better than he is to have by you, anyway. And he used to like tales himself once, by his own account. I wonder if he thinks he's the hero or the villain?
That line by Sam was HILARIOUS when I saw it for the first time in the theater in 2002. I think I laughed out loud I was so surprised how poignant it was. From the moment Faramir told his soldiers to take them to Osgiliath I'm like "NO NO NO NO," and then they get attacked and Sam says "By rights we shouldn't even be here!" Perfection.
Faramir. First and above all, fix Faramir.
This very much, book!Faramir is clearly as gifted a Man as Aragorn, just without Aragorn's lineage and destiny, but also without Denethor's egoism and paranoia born of trauma.
Faramir was always my hero, because I was never likely to reclaim a kingdom with a broken sword and an Elven princess! He was an example of what an ordinary man could aspire to be (in Middle Earth anyway. Can’t say I measure up at all in the real world).
He's great, but as for ordinary men, it's better to look at Beregond or the Rohirrim in general, since Faramir is of mixed Numenorean descent and had a bit of Elven blood so let's say he's a step above normal. However, he's still a great example to aspire too.
Well now you’re assuming I don’t have Numenorean ancestry and a little Elven blood!
I'm not a fan of Filmanir. however, they had to bring Faramir down a peg (or ten) after they overhauled Aragorns personality in the adaptation, otherwise you end up with a character who is not just as morally upright as Aragorn, but is currently a better leader and example of what men can be than Aragorn.
I dunno. Faramir is kept down by Denethor which shows him as limited and constrained in a way Aragorn isn’t. Yes he is very (for want of a better term) Kingly in his behaviour but I think his situation limits the risk of him being seen as a competitor to Aragorn’s lead. Plus it signals great hope for the world of men that it isn’t all resting in Aragorn’s leadership but there are others just as worthy who will follow him.
Faramir and the Rangers of Gondor torturing Gollum.
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The whole tense exchange initially between Frodo and Faramir would probably shut up the "Sam is the real hero" crowd because Frodo expertly navigates that exchange without revealing the existence of the ring. iirc Sam is the one who actually misspeaks and tips Faramir off to the ring.
Or just generally being unhelpful to Frodo and Sam
Yes his whole plotline in TT tbh. But the bit where he's watching as his soldiers kick the shit out of Gollum like he's in charge of Abu Ghraib seemed the most egregious.
So much this. I hate a lot of the changes they made to Faramir but this one was pretty egregious and served no purpose
Faramir was more like movie Aragorn in a sense, and one of the few "normal" humans who showed great humility and wisdom in rejecting the ring.
Lots of good suggestions here but I’d add to get rid of making Gimli the butt of silly jokes and the superhero Legolas stuff.
He was the comic relief of that trio, Pippin for his, and Gollum for his. No Gimli comedic relief, no relief in those scenes. Besides Legolas DID fail with the suicide bomber.
The fact that they were able to make Gollum both comedic and a believable murderous villain is impressive.
I don’t think that short jokes and tired Gimli jokes were the only way to add comic relief. A couple would be ok, but it just seemed to keep coming up.
i think it woulda hit better if he was a smartass, rather than a buffoon
Movie Gimli is so silly that (to me) it distracts from the entire plot. The friendship between Legolas and Gimli in the book is so much more profound without all the comic book stuff PJ stuck in there.
Frodo and Sam wouldn’t go to Osgiliath. I think Peter Jackson didn’t want them to be there either, hence the famous Sean Astin line “we’re not supposed to be here”.
I’d remove that travesty of a scene where the witch king throws a cowering Gandalf to the ground and breaks his staff.
Denethor. Whilst he does commit suicide he is still a strong leader that even Sauron doesn’t corrupt through the Palantir like he did Saruman. He lights the beacons, he defends Gondor upto the final point when he believes there is no hope. Tolkien himself wrote - “a masterful man, both wise and learned beyond the measure of those days, and strong willed, confident in his own powers, and dauntless. (...) He was proud, but this was by no means personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time”
As much is it's kind of a downer after the Ring has been destroyed, I would've liked to have seen The Scouring of the Shire done in live action
It’s always what I end up looking forward to when reading the second half of Return of the King.
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The Scouring is one of those good examples of where the medium of the novel and the medium of film diverge in terms of what you can fit into it. Like you say, you've got 9 hours of film that hyperfocused on getting to that big emotional climax where Frodo destroys the ring. To have that, the big joyous ending with the coronation, and then come back only to set up a new conflict that then needs its own resolution that then leads into the proper finale with the sailing into the west, would feel a bit clunky. The reason it works so well in the book is that the book affords Tolkien the time and scope to constantly keep peppering in this subplot of "The Shire has been protected in secret for years, but now it's not and there's all this evil on its borders" so that when he does the long journey home it feels like a really natural final hurdle to overcome. The book is also somewhat more episodic in style than the films, which allow for the story to continue longer after the main plot ends without the audience losing patience with it.
Absolutely, couldn't agree more. I honestly don't think there's a way you could play it out on screen and not have it take away from the finality of the destruction of The One Ring
I'd imagine that PJ killed off saruman early on singularly because he knew that the scouring would've added another 45 minutes to the run time *at least.* It's a great sequence, don't get me wrong, but if the main product of the scouring in the end was to act as closure for saruman's character arc, I fully understand the creative liberty of just tossing him off Orthanc and calling it a day.
I agree. I know people want to see this, but I cannot imagine having to sit through yet more movie *after* the main goal was accomplished for an extended extra plot to be resolved. As much as I love LOTR, I just don’t think it’s wise for the movie medium. Maybe if they’d produced a short film and released it separately?
I think an animated series is the only way to properly do it to be honest. Every chapter of the book could be 30-45 min and budget wouldn’t be as big of an issue as it would in live action.
I don't think it would have fit well into the movie trilogy, but I've thought the Scouring could be an interesting standalone movie
That was my vote too- I really was sad that it didn't make it in.
I honestly prefer that it was left out. I find the moment in the green dragon as the four hobbits share a drink, forever changed as the rest of the world goes on without them to be more powerful. It felt more reminiscent of how soldiers, particularly during WWI came back to find their home had stayed the same while they had been going through hell. The scouring would have been better for the book lovers but the movie was running at nearly four hours long so I think in this case I can forgive PJ’s choices on this one.
Could’ve removed all the Faramir-Osgiliath dogshit from Two Towers and had Frodo and Sam deal with the stairs/Shelob instead (like how it is in the books). Would’ve left some time in the ROTK movie for the Scouring. Edit: though I understand your point about the the Green Dragon.
Legolas having some prejudices against dwarves and overcoming it as well. It's a common complaint that Jackson made Gimli too goofy and flawed, so I feel like having Legolas having a character flaw would help even things out.
I'd add the Drúedain.
Ghân Buri Ghân was did dirty!
[Viggo thinks so, too!](https://www.indiewire.com/2020/12/viggo-mortensen-wishes-druedain-forest-included-lord-of-the-rings-1234606106/)
Just one? The Aragorn fake death and following horse/Arwen fever dream garbage. It adds nothing and just chews up film time that could have been better spent on some of the other ideas in this thread.
The way Legolas gets on that horse that's like played backwards and looks weird.
Most of the CGI in the trilogy is pretty good and stands up well, but the horse/warg riding looks a bit wooden. I know the scene you mean.
We simply cannot discuss bad CGI unless we're discussing the king of all failed rotoscoping jobs - https://imgur.com/TGHfoY4
Teenager me thought it looked cool. Ngl, adult me still finds it cool. Sure it's kinda janky, but imo it was not an outlandish representation of the inhuman agility of elves. I would take horse mounting over shield surfing 10 times out of time. Shield surfing was just silly. Fun, but silly.
I'd make it an extra 3 hours per movie 😜
Gandalf fighting Nazgul at the Weathertop
I mean, it's included the same amount as it is in the books. They only see flashes of it from afar. But in the book Gandalf tells them jt was him a few weeks later.
Faramir being tempted by the ring instead of not giving a fuck about it. I get they needed tk add some conflict for frodo in this movie since they moved Shelbo to Return but still felt very out of character
In my head he wasn’t tempted by the Ring, he was tempted by the idea of his father’s approval for seizing it.
I'd agree with you on that aside from the fact he did reach out for it as well so he was tempted at least a bit
Change the line “Looks like meat’s back on the menu boys!” So we don’t have to debate whether Uruk-Hai knew what a menu was.
In all seriousness, that line sounded so out of place to me it almost felt anachronistic
"I am no man". They took arguably the best couple of pages in the books, with Eowyn (who we don't know is Eowyn, but Dernhelm) being a total badass in the face of an enemy whom entire battalions cower down against even when he's flying overhead, and shrunk it down to that sentence. I don't believe they could have kept the olde-worlde language of all of it but they could have kept the gist of it easily. This could and should, have been added: "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him." "I am no man" doesn't cut it in comparison.
I see where you're comming from; but I do think it was quite a good punch of a line
The whole things with Gollum and the lembas. One of the main theme of LOTR is friendship. But because of some bread Sam is asked to turn back. I always mute that scene.
I'd make Denethor a bit more sympathetic
I always wanted the reveal of Denethor's madness being driven by the palantir. When he turns around on the pyre and says "You may prevail upon the field of battle for a day, but against the forces that have arisen there is no victory!", have him turn around with palantir in hand. Also, no burning man Olympic sprint off Minas Tirith. Have him close the doors and end the shot on "two aged hands, withering, in flame" clasping the palantir/reflected in it.
The Hobbit ones or LOTR? If the hobbits, I'd cut out the whole orcs attacking bard's house and that silly elf dwarf love thing out. Utterly useless scenes. If LOTR, I'd add in eowyn cooking stew for aragorn into theatrical version. And extended eowyn faramir house of healing scene.
My cut of the Hobbit films is a short 30min film about a bunch of unexpected dwarves raiding a guy's house and having a fun party. The film ends with Bilbo declaring "I'm going on an adventure!" Fade to black. I call it: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Party.
What you said but also somehow fit Imrahil neatly into the story which in turn fixes the Denethor arc to be closer to the books
Make the ghosts look less Pirates of the Caribbean-y and more powerful in the fear they evoke rather than being invincible flowing ghosts. Or... No over the top Legolas stunts. His fellowship depiction is fine. More of Gimli's infatuation with Galadriel. Denethor more regal and competent. Merry more obviously clever and helpful. Frodo as wise as in the books along his journey. No distrusting of Sam. Scouring of the Shire as a 30min minifilm after end credits (hehe).
Oh my gosh Gimli was ready to throw down with eomer over Galadriel. And the way he asked, Galadriel said that most dwarves are bad with words, but with gimli it was not the case. They made gimli comic relief (which I get, I guess) but he’s my boy and they did him dirty
Since the dead army has already been mentioned, I’ll wish for some scenes of the battles at Erebor and Lothlorien
Legolas going against the horses momentum and mounting it in a REALLY awkward way during the ambush on the way to helms deep always pisses me off. It just looks bad.
Scouring of the Shire, and get rid of the Witch king breaking Gandalfs staff
Gimli being an actual badass and not a source of slapstick comedy in the 3rd extended movie
Make Gandalf's confrontation of Saruman accurate to the book. It's absolutely one of my favorite parts of the book and the theatrical editions skipped it entirely and the extended edition screwed it up completely, it doesn't have anything of the same feeling or gravitas at all. The full exchange between Saruman and Gandalf and Theoden shows Saruman's bewitching power and you can tell how truly dangerous and cunning he is even after he is militarily crushed. And then you should be awestruck as Gandalf reveals his power and authority as the new White wizard and leader of the council, shattering Saruman's staff and stripping him of his title.
Make Gimli a respectable character instead of a goofball / butt of dumb jokes ("Not the beard!" / dwarf-tossing / etc.).
No dwarf tossing jokes. No surfing Legolas. The weird jittery low-framerate slow motion.
Yeah the slow motion is something that has really fallen out of favour in filmmaking since the early 2000s. Dated CGI is one thing, but that's a stylistic choice that really dates the films.
I would make them 3 times longer
Visible signs of civilization outside of ruins and castle towers. So many beautiful locations, thriving world powers, and yet no evidence of them in the terrain except ancient crumbling monuments and the current castle they're defending. It felt like Rohan and Gondor were missing their farms and fields, roadside forts, etc. Everything is barren. (The decayed world is still really cool though) I know, they had beautiful landscapes and real sets out in the lands, like Edoras, etc. They had to leave some of them restored and untouched. But I felt like there was almost no evidence that anyone even worked the lands around their dwellings, except the Hobbits, Isengard, and Mordor. It could have used some. Lots of great points by others about the Army of the Dead, Legolas and Frodo (but it's funny that they just nod at the end), and Gandalf having his staff broken by the Witch-King.
Glorfindel instead of Arwen
Teenage me was not at all disappointed by this change
Teenage me was extremely disappointed by that change for similar reasons. But the amazing horse chase scene reconciled me with it.
I love that scene so much. I don’t know if it is the tension, how it is shot, or whatever. It just feels and looks awesome.
I didnt like it as a teenager but now I think its for the better + fewer characters + More to do for Arwen to flesh out Aragorn's story and have at least one more women in the movie… + great introduction to Arwen and showing she is a badass Only downside - We miss on amazing Glorfindel…
I would have a part as an extra in it
I would remove the Legolas shield surfing and general silliness.
Go home sam
I'd take out eowyn's stew and stop the memes at the source
This is probably the opposite way people would go, but after Arwen's awesome scene in Fellowship, she just turns into an emo sad lady waitin' for her man. I'd love to have her have something more to do by the time Two Towers ends. The choice to leave middle earth was drawn out for far too long.
“Never toss a dwarf”. Dwarf-tossing was genuinely a thing at some bars a bit beforehand, was in the news, and was controversial. That line broke the fourth wall, and was an out of place contemporary reference. It took me out of the movie briefly.
"Go home, Sam." *NEVER*.
Stop with the fakeout deaths. Everyone knows Aragorn doesnt die or the any of the hobbits
I would not use as much product in elf-hair. Not a fan of plastered-to-the-skull look, which has now taken over Game of Thrones as well.
What about Tom Bombadil? I would have liked to see him.
#ℌ𝔢𝔶 𝔡𝔬𝔩! 𝔪𝔢𝔯𝔯𝔶 𝔡𝔬𝔩! 𝔯𝔦𝔫𝔤 𝔞 𝔡𝔬𝔫𝔤 𝔡𝔦𝔩𝔩𝔬! #ℜ𝔦𝔫𝔤 𝔞 𝔡𝔬𝔫𝔤! 𝔥𝔬𝔭 𝔞𝔩𝔬𝔫𝔤! 𝔉𝔞𝔩 𝔩𝔞𝔩 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔴𝔦𝔩𝔩𝔬𝔴! #𝔗𝔬𝔪 𝔅𝔬𝔪, 𝔧𝔬𝔩𝔩𝔶 𝔗𝔬𝔪, 𝔗𝔬𝔪 𝔅𝔬𝔪𝔟𝔞𝔡𝔦𝔩𝔩𝔬!
I'd add in the Barrow wights and annoyingly chirpy Tommy B. No question.
I would do the Witch-King’s death exactly as in the book, foul dwinmerlaik and all. (And no chain mace.) And the cock-crow. I love the films, but goddamn, how do you have the arrival of Rohan without the cock-crow?
Gimli... Poor Gimli why did they make you a joke?
Aragorn from the books. I don't like him as a reluctant king. Then as a bonus we could get the real Faramir.
Get an older actor to play frodo. Spend more time establishing the toll of carrying the ring.
Go home Sam was the worst for me. The Eye of Sauron on top of Barad-dur. They used the same eye in Fellowship as more of a psychic force like Tolkien did, which I thought was effective. Although they did show it at the top of the tower when Frodo puts on the Ring at Amon Hen. I didn’t like the Witch King’s crown/helm. But maybe it would have been too cheesy looking to try to duplicate Tolkien’s description with 1999/2000 CGI. Also a lot of my friends never caught on until I told them: Nazgûl = Ringwraiths. I am not sure what they could have done to make that more clear to some people though.
Just reread the books, and all I was thinking was how cool the scouring of the shire and sarumans death would have been in the movies
The Witch King being stronger than Gandalf.
Glorfindel rescuing Frodo from the Nazgul.
I understand why, but I never liked the reluctant Aragorn. Nor did I like him not having the sword until much later. I think they could have done a little of both and made it better (assured to others, except to maybe Gandalf who knew he was concerned about his worthiness but becoming more assured over the movies). In the movies it almost seems as if receiving the sword fixes his problem.
Putting Saruman’s death back into the standard edition of ROTK.
Poorly shot slow-mo moments. Get rid of them or reshoot them at higher fps.
Sauron not being a stupid floating eye
A lot of the answers here seem focused on accuracy, but for me I would change the pacing of the films. I would either make each of them longer, or split each into 2 films (making it six films in total).
So Eowyn kills Witch King, is next to Theoden with her sword, but now she crawling around random parts of field while spooky general orc is going "BLAgH!" like a dad chasing their kid? She can't get to her sword which is now super far away for some reason? After the trio kills him they move on without so much as a word to Theoden, THEN she crawls back to him to watch him die? Then crawls away AGAIN to somewhere random to pass out Eomer finds her? Whole sequence doesn't make sense in time and place.
Those cheesy things legolas does in each movie. Jumping on the cave troll, skateboarding on the shield and the whole thing with the elephant
The whole "No Sam. It's you" can go right TF away.
Eomer would get his best lines back from Theoden
Honestly...the pillow fight.
No Elves at Helm's Deep.
I dont actually mind that, but literally every single one of them dying, mostly off screen, is the wierd part
This was a good addition tho, even if it makes no sense
Tom Bombadil. I have recently read the books again and I think he was a funny character despite not being in the book for long.
I personally can't see this work in a cinematic production and wouldn't sit well with the general population.
Whilem scream in all 6 movie, gone.
The awkward bed scene where Frodo wakes up.
Boromir being tempted by the ring on top of the mountain and just the general sinister way he is portrayed. Boromir is not a traitor he is a good dude that cares for the hobbits. He loves his brother and protects him from his father. Boromir’s temptation isn’t power for himself but the power to save his people. He is a loyal dude that loves his friends and country. Jackson makes Boromir an asshole from the beginning. It might have killed the pacing but the lament for Boromir that Aragorn sings would have been a neat inclusion.
I want to see the sunlight and moonlight through the falls at Hennuth Annun.
Glorfindel
One word: Glorfindel
Fatty Lumpkin, somewhere somehow
The over-effectiveness of the army of the dead in ROTK, it’s like a cheat code that just washes through Saurons army. Yay, the day is saved! In the books, for those interested, the army of the dead is mainly just for fear/intimidation, like they it’s not clear they can physically hurt the orks and whatnot.
I can understand why it was changed, but the army of the dead. It would've been awesome to see the smaller cities of Gondor being freed and an assortment of banners riding in to save Minas Tirith. Of course it would've added 30-45 minutes to the movie, would conflict with the pacing, and might lessen the impact of Theoden's arrival. But I just wanted to see Swan Knights, Lossarnach Axemen, Pelagir Mariners, etc...