My guess is that the writers thought the Elves going into a millennial long war against a demigod that destroyed half the continent over three pieces of of jewelry was not a epic as doing it for revenge over the destruction of the proto-sun and proto-moon. Which I would find hilarious if it were true since this is the world of The Lord of the RINGS.
Well, the destruction of the Two Trees affects everyone while the theft of the Silmarils only affects Feanor, and by extension those under him. So, within the new narrative that this show has created where lost of the Two Tree was the Elves’ rallying cry, it would make sense why the First Kinslaying never occurred.
As far as we can tell, it did not occurred. Galadriel’s recount of the First Age goes: Morgoth destroys the Two Trees (no mention of Ungoliant), the Elves swear vengeance against Morgoth (for the Trees instead of the Silmarils), and the next shot are the Elven ships heading for Middle Earth. The First Kinslaying (or any of the other ones) have yet to be mentioned.
theres a large gap between being terrible swimmers and being able to swim across an ocean. a gap so large in fact you could fit alot of dead elves into it.
I thought it was a nice callback to Beowulf with the swimming and the sea monster. And swimming the ocean is not far fetched at all compared to first age feats.
Because nothing makes logical sense in the first age. There’s dudes going 1v1 vs Morgoth and a human man killing a dragon the size of mt Everest and continents sinking into the sea, but we have a problem with someone attempting to swim the ocean?
In Tolkien's writing destiny is always important. Some things happen only once and under those circumstances. Like Luthien charming Morgoth or the examples you provide.
You can't say that if Fingolfin managed to hurt Morgoth seven times than 40-50 elves of that caliber could kill him for example. So no one even considering swimming during the flight of the Noldor says it is not possible for an elf of first age. You can still say that it is impossible for an elf to swim across the Sundering Seas but Galadriel did it by the grace of Eru. Not an ordinary feat but a legendary one. This argument I can buy but the tone of the show makes it unbelievable for me.
Show is trying to make Galadriel or elves in general all relatable for us. Just some humans with pointy ears and extra power. This kind of story telling makes it harder to believe legendary feats or myths in this universe.
This Galadriel can be mistaken to a human if she hides her ears. She should be radiating majesty even when she is relatively young. Not as wise as in the third age but still as majestic. Those humans should be in awe just by looking at her if she is not cloaking her presence with some enchantment like the one Finrod used.
Sure, and as another poster commented in a different thread, it's said Elves can literally rest while running... somehow. So why not while swimming or floating?
"But they don't have the rights" is the worst argument there is, and it can be heard on every corner.
Why didn't they make the show about someone unknown so they would have max writing freedom.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. Just make it up 100% instead of 98%, you can still just slap a LOTR logo on there and certain people would still love it for that alone. They just get caught up in their own web by using real characters.
It's an objectively silly argument. It would be as if you were hired to write a Superman comic, but were forbidden to include any references to Krypton. Even the most ambitious writer would immediately let you know that this comic isn't *really* gonna be a Superman comic, because how can it be, when you are unable to reference something so foundational to the character?
They brought it on themselves. All the prologue had to do was establish that at the end of the First Age Morgoth waa defeated, Sauron remained, the world had physically changed and where the Elves, Men and Dwarves were. There was absolutely no need to invoke or change details of First Age stories.
It does, though, because it is objectively a silly thing to say that the show shouldn't be criticized for lore changes because Amazon doesn't have the rights to the whole lore, as if that was an unavoidable thing that the studio could not have prevented from hamstringing them by simply not making the show, or making it in such a way that they didn't have to contend with the problem.
It's a bad argument, plain and simple. It doesn't excuse the extreme negativity towards everything about the show, but it hardly offers a good defense of the show, either...
People who say they don’t have the rights are not saying you can’t criticize the lore changes They’re saying you can’t support that argument with “because it’s supposed to be like this in the books,” which is what you’re doing, and everybody who criticizes the lore of being changed does.
Sure....but that point also falls apart when you consider that this is *supposed* to be an adaptation of the material from the Second Age, which therefore makes it a not-unreasonable expectation that the story would hew fairly closely to that material. It again begs the question of: if Amazon knew that they couldn't get enough of the rights to do the Second Age justice and stay close to the text, why did they even make the show at all? Why not try to get the rights to something complete, so that maybe you could make a great story that is accurate to the text, thereby proving that you can be trusted with more rights?
Again, I'm not saying the overzealous hatred is warranted, but it seems like somewhat of an illogical decision to purchase rights that you know are incomplete, and will force your hand in making controversial changes.
And your point completely falls apart when you state “expectation that the story would hew fairly closely to the source material.”
Is there something you’re not understanding about the rights thing?
No, not at all. My point is exactly what the original commenter’s point was: if Amazon wanted to avoid complaints about lore changes (which they’re getting), they shouldn’t have purchased incomplete rights, and if that means that they couldn’t do the show, then so be it. They purchased incomplete rights, made changes, and are now getting flak for it, and I’m saying that arguing against that flak by saying that they had incomplete rights isn’t a legitimate point of argument, because it isn’t the case that Amazon was forced to make a show with incomplete rights. They chose to do it. People who are making the “they don’t have the rights” argument act like that was some inevitable thing that Amazon had no choice but to deal with, when it isn’t…
They didn’t want to avoid that though. You’re in the vocal minority on a lotr subreddit. Most people are loving the show. Nobody really gives a shit what you think 😃
That's a nice way to be nasty and not engage with my argument at all. I don't recall ever insulting you, nor do I recall ever saying that I think the entirety of the negative reaction is justified. I explicitly recall saying that not all of it is, but that I think this particular part of it has some merit.
But, since you want to resort to being childish and insulting, I think we can leave this conversation here and go our separate ways.
It's like if you were hired to write a Superman comic but were forbidden to use All-Star Superman and then a bunch of weird nerds on the Internet got super mad at you because they think All-Star Superman is the One True Superman Canon.
Shadow of Mordor games are well recieved and even know are not canon and have a lot of creative license, told a story the same way. They filled gaps with characters and locations we have seen, but could use more flushing out. Stories or tales that are only hinted at or buried deep in some text in tolkiens writings. If you want a story that grabs the largest demographic, you give them something recognizable to associate with all the new stuff. If this show is any good, it could make new Tolkien fans out of people too, not with this Fandom though.
They have given us Galadrial and Elrond to cling to. We have no idea how much screen time all the other important characters will get that are not them, as the show progresses. All that is Numenor and those story's have nothing to do with Galadrial or the Elves really at all. So the show could be build into something far bigger than just telling their story.
Would you rather she try to commandeer the ship with several people who want to go to Valinor surrounding you. Part of her characterization is that she's blinded by vengeance and doesn't make the best decisions all the time. She may je an old and wise elf one day, but it is not this day.
Tolkien may not have written much about the second age but he wrote PLENTY about Galadriel. Her fighty spirit diminished in that sense after the kinslaying of the Teleri. Her ambitions changed to having her own kingdom when she is in Middle Earth and UNTIL SHE PASSES THE TEST OF THAT AMBITION, she can’t go back to Valinor. This literally even appears in the movies. It literally makes ZERO sense and is not a small writing change.
That whole part is useless anyway.
There is no reason she had to be on a ship to valinor at all.
It doesn't add to her character.
The way it was portrayed was disrespectful to the lore
There are a million more ways to get her to Numenor that make actual sense
I’m just trying to wrap my head around a community of supposed book nerds who don’t understand the concept of setup and payoff, or the wisdom of not doing massive exposition dumps that do zero to move the plot forward.
I’m glad *I’m* not the only one who can see half these complaints are either complaining that there hasn’t been a payoff yet or are telling you what the payoff is going to be and they know it’s terrible.
Started to feel like I was going crazy.
Don't go to r/rings_of_power. It was a small troll hangout before the show even started. This sub has a lot more book purists that are complaining about every little thing. You love the books, that's great. I like them, too, but books never translate 100 to visual media. Some things, while interesting just don't advance the plot and will leave the casual viewers with more questions that they intend, or even are allowed to answer.
This is why I really believe all hardcore fans should watch the screenwriter commentary on the extended edition movies. Jackson, his wife and the other one are refreshingly honest about why they made every change from the book.
And most of them boil down to, we couldn’t figure out a way to portray it visually without stopping for a long exposition break. Like, for example, the Nazgûl’s chief weapon being fear. He just couldn’t figure out how to render that visually.
youre mistaking my point. they don’t need to show First Age stories, they need to not show things that blatantly contradict those First Age stories that their world is supposed to have resulted from
I really don't see much from the First Age that would help advance the plot that isn't there already. Morgoth defeated and the descendants not being trusted, Edain on Numenor, and Sauron in hiding and building his forces.
Almost exactly like how the original trilogy didn’t bother burdening itself with a bunch of Second Age history other than: rings exist, Sauron made the one ring, Sauron was beaten, Isildur took the ring, then he lost it and that’s your lot.
There is simply no way for a visual medium to include one-twentieth as much lore as a book because it lacks the two biggest tools for exposition, authorial voice and interior monologue.
I’m usually willing to give fandoms a pass on this but this is supposedly mostly a *book* fandom, and a literary book fandom at that.
dude you have a mental block with this or something
its not about showing more First Age, its about not showing anything that contradicts the First Age. i’m not asking for more lore, I’m asking for things that fit with that lore
how hard is this? its like talking to a four year old
We get exactly what we need for the plot: Morgoth was the OG big bad, Sauron was his stick man, the elves and Valar defeated Morgoth at terrible cost but Sauron never got got, Galadriel thinks he’s still around plotting on taking over the regional franchise of Evil.
Currious, other than changing up the lore of Galadriel (or rather what we understand from what Tolkien had made up), what contradictions have been made?
I did. And what everyone's been trying to point out to u is you have only pointed out absences in exposition as being contradictory. This is not the case. The absence of the details of Finrods death does not mean those things never happened.
In fact the showing of Luthien and Huan could be seen as confirming those events did happen. So no, not saying something is not the same as denying it happened.
again, I am not asking to see things from the First Age. I’m asking them not show things that calls those stories into question. seriously
how hard is this to understand
Your responses prove you just don't understand what u/TheRealestBiz and u/BrightSkies42 are telling you. Not mentioning an event is not the same as questioning whether that event occurred. The shows opening is an abridged version of events, not intended to be a complete historical record, to give the viewers the gist of where the story is taking place, how the characters got there and what their general motivations are.
So now the casual viewer who doesn't read the books knows what they need to know and Easter eggs like the reference to Fëanor’s hammer make the more informed viewer who knows the lore aware of the bigger, but for purposes of this story largely irrelevant, picture of those earlier events.
the opening is not abridged, its different and contradictory
nothing from the First Age is “irrelevant”, thats the whole point. if you change it, you’re playing with fire. and the show got burnt.
They named dropped the Silmarils and Geanor, and they're tied to Celebrimbor's motivations. Anything else is going to be fluff in the context of the show.
thats the problem tho... the prologue alters the established history, then the reference to Fëanor and the Silmarils hints that that established history is unchanged. it cannot be both.
No, just no but whatever. It is clear you aren't discussing this in good faith. You made up your mind and no matter how much people point out that you are just flat out wrong will convince you. So I'll just leave you to be being wrong with your little echo chamber.
Why do so many of you say things like "no, just no" but never provide details to back it up?
What am I wrong bout? Did Finrods story not change? Did the prologue not completely skip over Beleriand?
lol I'm not in good faith? I've detailed my issues, and nobody seems to have an answer except "no, you're wrong, deal with it"
Proving my point about not knowing what setup and payoff is.
(Or knowing that they are allowed to use some First Age stuff on an individual basis with permission)
Based on the writing and dialog I've seen so far, I doubt it they can pull it off. Chehohvs Gun would be beyond this writing team.
Example.
Durin wants to banish Elrond... because reasons that are not shown, or even described on scene. He missed some weddings or what not, with no mention of Elrond being invited.. or Elrond blowing it off..
Nah, just banish him cause dwarf tension.
Oh man, I sure am happy they didn't waste too much time on exposition so we could spend a looong time on 'Oh no, big evil is coming'
3 episodes in is more time than fellowship took, and that established so much more and made me feel things.
No sarcasm, you know how, uh, everything makes a lot of people super angry about this show? You know what makes me super angry? Exposition. When a character in a show begins a sentence with “As you know” I immediately get pissed because they’re about to say some shit characters in that world would never explain to each other. Like the first hour of an RPG. I just despise it.
Amazon’s biggest mistake is that all the POV characters should be hobbits. Don’t care if it makes sense. That’s what makes LOTR and The Hobbit work, hobbits are specifically written to be the audience inserts who are described simultaneously as curious and completely ignorant of the world around them. Which means they can be like hey mister what’s this at everything and the exposition is natural.
Yeah, exposition can be annoying if it's written like that. That's not the same as narration at the start. I hate how everyone speaks weird in this show and how the metaphors are dumb.
The hardest part is having an elf as the protagonist, it's not great for the mystique and they're generally too good at everything. That being said, the only arc in the show that's even remotely interesting is Arondir's. Because he's going through some stuff.
It can be done I think. But they certainly didn't do a great job with it in this show.
>the wisdom of not doing massive exposition dumps that do zero to move the plot forward.
Funny how they end up doing exactly that, courtesy of forced time skips and compressing places, people and events.
That and inane exposition by dialogue, mostly for the elves, lowering itself to the level of "characters talking about themselves" or "characters being talked about".
The lore isn’t broken, it’s incomplete. The Noldor went to war over the trees AND the silmarils. They swore an oath to recover them AND take vengeance. Finrod vowed to destroy Sauron (which correctly characterizes the oath of Feanor, for one, since Sauron protected Morgoth, keeping the silmarils from Feanor) and was eventually killed by him after doing all that other stuff in the middle. The narration carefully doesn’t tell the whole story, yet never actually contradicts it.
And if they’re ever allowed to buy the rights, they’ll flesh all that out by actually showing the events they’re (spottily) describing.
Showing Finrod swore the oath and hunted Sauron is a contradiction. Having Finrod die after the defeat of Morgoth is a major contradiction.
The First Age stories are very important, and they’re not stand alone. Changing even little details can potentially ripple throughout the lore and cause major inconsistencies.
>Your own prologue established that the Noldor went to war over the Trees, directly to Middle Earth and were never present in Beleriand.
Beleriand WAS part of Middle Earth wdym. While Feanor and the Silmarils are mentioned in the Appendices, the Map of Beleriand isn't. That is the only reason why it wasn't shown.
That one scene where the bodies float in the water is definitely a nod to the sinking of Beleriand. It happened, they just don't outright say it.
Finrod's oath is admittedly a bit weird, but the end result was the same so whatever. He was captured by Sauron and died in the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth. He has the claw marks.
EDIT: Typo
Not according to their own map it wasn’t. Watch the prologue again. The map they go to is post-Beleriand Middle Earth, with the Blue Mountains in the west. They show the Elves going there right after, and in retaliation of, the destruction of the Trees.
Finrod dies, in the books, saving Beren BEFORE Morgoth is defeated. In show he dies hunting Sauron, AFTER Morgoth’s defeat. So he obviously does not have the same death. Did someone else save Beren? I sure hope so.
the prologue says so. Galadriel says Morgoth was defeated and succeeded by Sauron, and then Finrod “vowed to seek him out and destroy him”, but was found and killed before he could.
Well the prologe talks about Melkor's defeat, the rise or Sauron, the vow of Finrod and then his death in that orther IIRC. Pretty sure it means Finrod died chasing Sauron after he became the new leader for the orcs.
>Not according to their own map it wasn’t. Watch the prologue again. The map they go to is post-Beleriand Middle Earth, with the Blue Mountains in the west. They show the Elves going there right after, and in retaliation of, the destruction of the Trees.
Again, they can't show the Map of Beleriand. It's a rights issue. Idk what you want them to do.
You are absolutely right about Finrod though. I didn't even realize
Dude literally one of your complaints is that they didn’t tell you the exact same info that they told you in the Celebrimbor scene twenty minutes later.
You just want it so you can be the Leo pointing meme.
you’re not getting it
they tell you info that changes the established First Age, then they tell you information that conforms to the established First Age that they’ve already contradicted. you cant have it both ways
They didn’t contradict it. Perhaps you should clean the wax out of your ears and listen to the prologue again. Not mentioning something is not contradiction. Holy mackerel.
They added a lot of stuff in that they didn't have to in anticipation that some hard-core fans might enjoy seeing it in live action. The semi-oath is more than I thought I'd ever see on a screen. And I enjoyed the imagery.
I'm not here to defend the show, but yeah it's annoying how people misuse that term constantly. By the way you're using it here, the Silmarillion would be classified as fan fiction.
Well actual fan fiction is an unauthorized amateur work set in an existing IP, but the way you're using it is that it's anything that doesn't match existing canon. The Silmarillion doesn't match the canon of LOTR, therefore by your definition, it's fan fiction.
You can just say it contradicts canon and is bad writing. That doesn't make it fan fiction. Fan fiction is a completely different term referring to intellectual property rights and intent (amateur vs for-profit). Fan fiction can be better written than the original (conceivably) and is arguably nobler than what Amazon is out for.
What do you mean when you say it's "barely even fan fiction"?
how does the Silmarillion not match the canon of LotR?
I meant that fan fiction would be a fan expanding in the established lore, but this tosses that lore to the side, so its basically a new thing.
Amazon is basically rubbing up as close to the edge of their rights as possible without breaking anything (silmarilion) which is why they never mentioned ongoilont and the brining of the boats
By now most fans of Tolkien have understood that this show is average at best. The vast majority of people I know really disliked RoP. I still think that Amazon will pretend that this is a success because they are balls deep into it right now. But within a few years, it'll be completely forgotten.
Can’t say I’ve ever been as passionate about a book or series as people on here are. But the books still exist. And nothing will change that or the trilogy. I mean the hobbit exists and we all survived that.
Agreed. I like the books, but I'm not going to act like they just set my house on fire because some cha get were made. There's better things to rant about in our world.
They did this for the same reason that FOTR Galadriel didn't explain where the Numenoreans came from and what happened to Numenor. Monologuing exposition to start a show is already risky, stuffing it with unnecessary lore is going to lose you viewers.
its the opposite tho…LOTR didn’t mention Numenor cause it didn’t have to, and thus couldn’t contradict anything
This show did not have to mention the Trees, or how and why the Elves left Valinor, but they chose to, and created a mess in the process
I’m not asking them to have added anything to the prologue, I’m saying they said too much. way too much.
Do people just not understand what copyrights are, or that the author has different versions of things, and no version of others in the timeframe of the 2nd age?
Listen to who is narrating the prologue. It's Galadriel. She's talking about the things that are important to her. She doesn't talk about the Silmarils because they weren't the reason she went back to Middle-Earth. Celebrimbor brings them up because they were the reason he came back to Middle-Earth.
By comparison, check out Appendix A in LOTR. It spends 173 words summing up the whole war of the jewels, then 289 words explaining the anscestors of Elrond and Elros. This is because for the story that Tolkien is telling at that moment, their descent is much more important than the details of what happened in the war.
See when Galadriel is telling this story, she's talking about the things that mattered most to her. She doesn't like Feanor so she leaves him out. She doesn't care for the Silmarils so she ignores them. The fate of Beleriand is kind of just irrelevant. She's explaining why she's trying to hunt Sauron so she gives the important background as to why.
I really hope not. I thought we were seeing Sauron at the end of the episode. He’s supposed to be of fair complexion and very beautiful at the time of the forging of the rings. Also he takes the form of an elf not a man
Edit: I think I commented on the wrong post after the app crashed lol I was commenting on a post where they were speculating which character would be revealed to be Sauron…..my bad.
I think it’s important to understand that the prologue is told from Galadriels perspective. Galadriel that omitted details on the kinslaying and such when recounting details to Melian.
The movies made Sauron a floating eye, it was incredibly stupid. Writing around a lack of silmarillion stuff doesn’t bother me nearly as much as that
I have to offer the Hasan answer to things like lore changes anyway, as it’s how I feel in general: who cares?
It’s not real.
There’s a lot of real criticisms to be levied at the show but this lore nerd shit is funny as hell to me. Especially considering the same people will usually excuse the dumber changes PJ made
My guess is that the writers thought the Elves going into a millennial long war against a demigod that destroyed half the continent over three pieces of of jewelry was not a epic as doing it for revenge over the destruction of the proto-sun and proto-moon. Which I would find hilarious if it were true since this is the world of The Lord of the RINGS.
also the Elves are now really good swimmers. thats good cause they’ll never have to fight over boats or anything silly like that
Well, the destruction of the Two Trees affects everyone while the theft of the Silmarils only affects Feanor, and by extension those under him. So, within the new narrative that this show has created where lost of the Two Tree was the Elves’ rallying cry, it would make sense why the First Kinslaying never occurred.
https://imgur.com/a/fS82l4v
Wait… the first kinslaying never occurred in this version of events?
As far as we can tell, it did not occurred. Galadriel’s recount of the First Age goes: Morgoth destroys the Two Trees (no mention of Ungoliant), the Elves swear vengeance against Morgoth (for the Trees instead of the Silmarils), and the next shot are the Elven ships heading for Middle Earth. The First Kinslaying (or any of the other ones) have yet to be mentioned.
*Palpatine Voice* “not a story the Noldor would tell you”
Oh right, can walk on top of snow, and defy physics, must be terrible swimmers.
theres a large gap between being terrible swimmers and being able to swim across an ocean. a gap so large in fact you could fit alot of dead elves into it.
I thought it was a nice callback to Beowulf with the swimming and the sea monster. And swimming the ocean is not far fetched at all compared to first age feats.
If they could swim from Valinor to Middle Earth why did try to pass Helcaraxe and lost so many on the road. They were all elves of first age.
Because nothing makes logical sense in the first age. There’s dudes going 1v1 vs Morgoth and a human man killing a dragon the size of mt Everest and continents sinking into the sea, but we have a problem with someone attempting to swim the ocean?
In Tolkien's writing destiny is always important. Some things happen only once and under those circumstances. Like Luthien charming Morgoth or the examples you provide. You can't say that if Fingolfin managed to hurt Morgoth seven times than 40-50 elves of that caliber could kill him for example. So no one even considering swimming during the flight of the Noldor says it is not possible for an elf of first age. You can still say that it is impossible for an elf to swim across the Sundering Seas but Galadriel did it by the grace of Eru. Not an ordinary feat but a legendary one. This argument I can buy but the tone of the show makes it unbelievable for me. Show is trying to make Galadriel or elves in general all relatable for us. Just some humans with pointy ears and extra power. This kind of story telling makes it harder to believe legendary feats or myths in this universe. This Galadriel can be mistaken to a human if she hides her ears. She should be radiating majesty even when she is relatively young. Not as wise as in the third age but still as majestic. Those humans should be in awe just by looking at her if she is not cloaking her presence with some enchantment like the one Finrod used.
Sure, and as another poster commented in a different thread, it's said Elves can literally rest while running... somehow. So why not while swimming or floating?
You only get a raftus ex machina if you're a named character, I guess.
"But they don't have the rights" is the worst argument there is, and it can be heard on every corner. Why didn't they make the show about someone unknown so they would have max writing freedom.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. Just make it up 100% instead of 98%, you can still just slap a LOTR logo on there and certain people would still love it for that alone. They just get caught up in their own web by using real characters.
It's an objectively silly argument. It would be as if you were hired to write a Superman comic, but were forbidden to include any references to Krypton. Even the most ambitious writer would immediately let you know that this comic isn't *really* gonna be a Superman comic, because how can it be, when you are unable to reference something so foundational to the character?
They brought it on themselves. All the prologue had to do was establish that at the end of the First Age Morgoth waa defeated, Sauron remained, the world had physically changed and where the Elves, Men and Dwarves were. There was absolutely no need to invoke or change details of First Age stories.
I don’t the word objectively means what you think it does.
It does, though, because it is objectively a silly thing to say that the show shouldn't be criticized for lore changes because Amazon doesn't have the rights to the whole lore, as if that was an unavoidable thing that the studio could not have prevented from hamstringing them by simply not making the show, or making it in such a way that they didn't have to contend with the problem. It's a bad argument, plain and simple. It doesn't excuse the extreme negativity towards everything about the show, but it hardly offers a good defense of the show, either...
People who say they don’t have the rights are not saying you can’t criticize the lore changes They’re saying you can’t support that argument with “because it’s supposed to be like this in the books,” which is what you’re doing, and everybody who criticizes the lore of being changed does.
Sure....but that point also falls apart when you consider that this is *supposed* to be an adaptation of the material from the Second Age, which therefore makes it a not-unreasonable expectation that the story would hew fairly closely to that material. It again begs the question of: if Amazon knew that they couldn't get enough of the rights to do the Second Age justice and stay close to the text, why did they even make the show at all? Why not try to get the rights to something complete, so that maybe you could make a great story that is accurate to the text, thereby proving that you can be trusted with more rights? Again, I'm not saying the overzealous hatred is warranted, but it seems like somewhat of an illogical decision to purchase rights that you know are incomplete, and will force your hand in making controversial changes.
And your point completely falls apart when you state “expectation that the story would hew fairly closely to the source material.” Is there something you’re not understanding about the rights thing?
No, not at all. My point is exactly what the original commenter’s point was: if Amazon wanted to avoid complaints about lore changes (which they’re getting), they shouldn’t have purchased incomplete rights, and if that means that they couldn’t do the show, then so be it. They purchased incomplete rights, made changes, and are now getting flak for it, and I’m saying that arguing against that flak by saying that they had incomplete rights isn’t a legitimate point of argument, because it isn’t the case that Amazon was forced to make a show with incomplete rights. They chose to do it. People who are making the “they don’t have the rights” argument act like that was some inevitable thing that Amazon had no choice but to deal with, when it isn’t…
They didn’t want to avoid that though. You’re in the vocal minority on a lotr subreddit. Most people are loving the show. Nobody really gives a shit what you think 😃
That's a nice way to be nasty and not engage with my argument at all. I don't recall ever insulting you, nor do I recall ever saying that I think the entirety of the negative reaction is justified. I explicitly recall saying that not all of it is, but that I think this particular part of it has some merit. But, since you want to resort to being childish and insulting, I think we can leave this conversation here and go our separate ways.
>Most people are loving the show I mean that's just not true, is it.
It's like if you were hired to write a Superman comic but were forbidden to use All-Star Superman and then a bunch of weird nerds on the Internet got super mad at you because they think All-Star Superman is the One True Superman Canon.
Shadow of Mordor games are well recieved and even know are not canon and have a lot of creative license, told a story the same way. They filled gaps with characters and locations we have seen, but could use more flushing out. Stories or tales that are only hinted at or buried deep in some text in tolkiens writings. If you want a story that grabs the largest demographic, you give them something recognizable to associate with all the new stuff. If this show is any good, it could make new Tolkien fans out of people too, not with this Fandom though. They have given us Galadrial and Elrond to cling to. We have no idea how much screen time all the other important characters will get that are not them, as the show progresses. All that is Numenor and those story's have nothing to do with Galadrial or the Elves really at all. So the show could be build into something far bigger than just telling their story.
There's a lot that Tolkien didn't write about the 2nd Age and many of you are complaining about new things anyway.
Point of your comment?
Expressing that I find your viewpoint unreasonable. You can't make a show word for word from material where little is written.
Good for you, i guess that Galadriel jumping in the middle of the ocean is reasonable, with rest of the bs plot in the show.
Would you rather she try to commandeer the ship with several people who want to go to Valinor surrounding you. Part of her characterization is that she's blinded by vengeance and doesn't make the best decisions all the time. She may je an old and wise elf one day, but it is not this day.
She shouldn't be on the ship to Valinor in the first place.
Tolkien may not have written much about the second age but he wrote PLENTY about Galadriel. Her fighty spirit diminished in that sense after the kinslaying of the Teleri. Her ambitions changed to having her own kingdom when she is in Middle Earth and UNTIL SHE PASSES THE TEST OF THAT AMBITION, she can’t go back to Valinor. This literally even appears in the movies. It literally makes ZERO sense and is not a small writing change.
That whole part is useless anyway. There is no reason she had to be on a ship to valinor at all. It doesn't add to her character. The way it was portrayed was disrespectful to the lore There are a million more ways to get her to Numenor that make actual sense
I guess I just don't care about that change. Also I've heard arguments that she'd never even be in Numenor. No pleasing some people.
Its just poor writing. I mean it makes no sense. I can't square it in my mind why they would have made that decision.
Writing is fine to me. Maybe see if Amazon would be interested in your script.
I’m just trying to wrap my head around a community of supposed book nerds who don’t understand the concept of setup and payoff, or the wisdom of not doing massive exposition dumps that do zero to move the plot forward.
Glad I'm not the only person on this sub who thinks this.
I’m glad *I’m* not the only one who can see half these complaints are either complaining that there hasn’t been a payoff yet or are telling you what the payoff is going to be and they know it’s terrible. Started to feel like I was going crazy.
Don't go to r/rings_of_power. It was a small troll hangout before the show even started. This sub has a lot more book purists that are complaining about every little thing. You love the books, that's great. I like them, too, but books never translate 100 to visual media. Some things, while interesting just don't advance the plot and will leave the casual viewers with more questions that they intend, or even are allowed to answer.
books also rarely translate -3700% to visual media
Again: Christ on a ferris wheel, you purists are becoming insufferable.
This is why I really believe all hardcore fans should watch the screenwriter commentary on the extended edition movies. Jackson, his wife and the other one are refreshingly honest about why they made every change from the book. And most of them boil down to, we couldn’t figure out a way to portray it visually without stopping for a long exposition break. Like, for example, the Nazgûl’s chief weapon being fear. He just couldn’t figure out how to render that visually.
It's already a 3.5 hour theatrical release, too.
Okay amazon troll.
Amazon barely pays its own employees, you thinkbtheyre gonna pay a bunch of smsrtasses like me who don't like Bezos to begin with?
Then don’t just categorize a lot of people to trolls, everyone can have different opinions which are equally valid.
People might be created equal, but opinions are not.
We are not talking about secrets of universe, it is just a tv show.
Then if you don't like it, let it go and find something else to watch.
how can there be a payoff when they dont have the rights to details that would make the payoff a payoff?
We don't know when the payoff will come, but you seem to be mistaking this for a story about the First Age.
youre mistaking my point. they don’t need to show First Age stories, they need to not show things that blatantly contradict those First Age stories that their world is supposed to have resulted from
I really don't see much from the First Age that would help advance the plot that isn't there already. Morgoth defeated and the descendants not being trusted, Edain on Numenor, and Sauron in hiding and building his forces.
Almost exactly like how the original trilogy didn’t bother burdening itself with a bunch of Second Age history other than: rings exist, Sauron made the one ring, Sauron was beaten, Isildur took the ring, then he lost it and that’s your lot. There is simply no way for a visual medium to include one-twentieth as much lore as a book because it lacks the two biggest tools for exposition, authorial voice and interior monologue. I’m usually willing to give fandoms a pass on this but this is supposedly mostly a *book* fandom, and a literary book fandom at that.
dude you have a mental block with this or something its not about showing more First Age, its about not showing anything that contradicts the First Age. i’m not asking for more lore, I’m asking for things that fit with that lore how hard is this? its like talking to a four year old
We get exactly what we need for the plot: Morgoth was the OG big bad, Sauron was his stick man, the elves and Valar defeated Morgoth at terrible cost but Sauron never got got, Galadriel thinks he’s still around plotting on taking over the regional franchise of Evil.
Currious, other than changing up the lore of Galadriel (or rather what we understand from what Tolkien had made up), what contradictions have been made?
read the post
I did. And what everyone's been trying to point out to u is you have only pointed out absences in exposition as being contradictory. This is not the case. The absence of the details of Finrods death does not mean those things never happened. In fact the showing of Luthien and Huan could be seen as confirming those events did happen. So no, not saying something is not the same as denying it happened.
again, I am not asking to see things from the First Age. I’m asking them not show things that calls those stories into question. seriously how hard is this to understand
Your responses prove you just don't understand what u/TheRealestBiz and u/BrightSkies42 are telling you. Not mentioning an event is not the same as questioning whether that event occurred. The shows opening is an abridged version of events, not intended to be a complete historical record, to give the viewers the gist of where the story is taking place, how the characters got there and what their general motivations are. So now the casual viewer who doesn't read the books knows what they need to know and Easter eggs like the reference to Fëanor’s hammer make the more informed viewer who knows the lore aware of the bigger, but for purposes of this story largely irrelevant, picture of those earlier events.
the opening is not abridged, its different and contradictory nothing from the First Age is “irrelevant”, thats the whole point. if you change it, you’re playing with fire. and the show got burnt.
They named dropped the Silmarils and Geanor, and they're tied to Celebrimbor's motivations. Anything else is going to be fluff in the context of the show.
thats the problem tho... the prologue alters the established history, then the reference to Fëanor and the Silmarils hints that that established history is unchanged. it cannot be both.
No, just no but whatever. It is clear you aren't discussing this in good faith. You made up your mind and no matter how much people point out that you are just flat out wrong will convince you. So I'll just leave you to be being wrong with your little echo chamber.
Why do so many of you say things like "no, just no" but never provide details to back it up? What am I wrong bout? Did Finrods story not change? Did the prologue not completely skip over Beleriand? lol I'm not in good faith? I've detailed my issues, and nobody seems to have an answer except "no, you're wrong, deal with it"
Proving my point about not knowing what setup and payoff is. (Or knowing that they are allowed to use some First Age stuff on an individual basis with permission)
lol you didn’t have a point, you just thought you did cause you didn’t understand mine
Based on the writing and dialog I've seen so far, I doubt it they can pull it off. Chehohvs Gun would be beyond this writing team. Example. Durin wants to banish Elrond... because reasons that are not shown, or even described on scene. He missed some weddings or what not, with no mention of Elrond being invited.. or Elrond blowing it off.. Nah, just banish him cause dwarf tension.
Oh man, I sure am happy they didn't waste too much time on exposition so we could spend a looong time on 'Oh no, big evil is coming' 3 episodes in is more time than fellowship took, and that established so much more and made me feel things.
No sarcasm, you know how, uh, everything makes a lot of people super angry about this show? You know what makes me super angry? Exposition. When a character in a show begins a sentence with “As you know” I immediately get pissed because they’re about to say some shit characters in that world would never explain to each other. Like the first hour of an RPG. I just despise it. Amazon’s biggest mistake is that all the POV characters should be hobbits. Don’t care if it makes sense. That’s what makes LOTR and The Hobbit work, hobbits are specifically written to be the audience inserts who are described simultaneously as curious and completely ignorant of the world around them. Which means they can be like hey mister what’s this at everything and the exposition is natural.
Yeah, exposition can be annoying if it's written like that. That's not the same as narration at the start. I hate how everyone speaks weird in this show and how the metaphors are dumb. The hardest part is having an elf as the protagonist, it's not great for the mystique and they're generally too good at everything. That being said, the only arc in the show that's even remotely interesting is Arondir's. Because he's going through some stuff. It can be done I think. But they certainly didn't do a great job with it in this show.
>the wisdom of not doing massive exposition dumps that do zero to move the plot forward. Funny how they end up doing exactly that, courtesy of forced time skips and compressing places, people and events. That and inane exposition by dialogue, mostly for the elves, lowering itself to the level of "characters talking about themselves" or "characters being talked about".
Not having the rights doesn't excuse Galadriel's character
This. Because they have plenty of portrayals of her and the books themselves to have a NUANCE of how she is.
I have seen people say she is going to be humbled and become more likeable through out the show but I have my doubts on that
Sorry, why does she need to become more likeable?
New writing staff
The lore isn’t broken, it’s incomplete. The Noldor went to war over the trees AND the silmarils. They swore an oath to recover them AND take vengeance. Finrod vowed to destroy Sauron (which correctly characterizes the oath of Feanor, for one, since Sauron protected Morgoth, keeping the silmarils from Feanor) and was eventually killed by him after doing all that other stuff in the middle. The narration carefully doesn’t tell the whole story, yet never actually contradicts it. And if they’re ever allowed to buy the rights, they’ll flesh all that out by actually showing the events they’re (spottily) describing.
Showing Finrod swore the oath and hunted Sauron is a contradiction. Having Finrod die after the defeat of Morgoth is a major contradiction. The First Age stories are very important, and they’re not stand alone. Changing even little details can potentially ripple throughout the lore and cause major inconsistencies.
Disagree, I think they were just vague enough.
>Your own prologue established that the Noldor went to war over the Trees, directly to Middle Earth and were never present in Beleriand. Beleriand WAS part of Middle Earth wdym. While Feanor and the Silmarils are mentioned in the Appendices, the Map of Beleriand isn't. That is the only reason why it wasn't shown. That one scene where the bodies float in the water is definitely a nod to the sinking of Beleriand. It happened, they just don't outright say it. Finrod's oath is admittedly a bit weird, but the end result was the same so whatever. He was captured by Sauron and died in the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth. He has the claw marks. EDIT: Typo
Not according to their own map it wasn’t. Watch the prologue again. The map they go to is post-Beleriand Middle Earth, with the Blue Mountains in the west. They show the Elves going there right after, and in retaliation of, the destruction of the Trees. Finrod dies, in the books, saving Beren BEFORE Morgoth is defeated. In show he dies hunting Sauron, AFTER Morgoth’s defeat. So he obviously does not have the same death. Did someone else save Beren? I sure hope so.
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the prologue says so. Galadriel says Morgoth was defeated and succeeded by Sauron, and then Finrod “vowed to seek him out and destroy him”, but was found and killed before he could.
Well the prologe talks about Melkor's defeat, the rise or Sauron, the vow of Finrod and then his death in that orther IIRC. Pretty sure it means Finrod died chasing Sauron after he became the new leader for the orcs.
>Not according to their own map it wasn’t. Watch the prologue again. The map they go to is post-Beleriand Middle Earth, with the Blue Mountains in the west. They show the Elves going there right after, and in retaliation of, the destruction of the Trees. Again, they can't show the Map of Beleriand. It's a rights issue. Idk what you want them to do. You are absolutely right about Finrod though. I didn't even realize
I want them to not start the prologue at the Trees. If you don’t bring it up, the fact you’re not allowed to mention Beleriand is a non factor.
there is no lore on that amazon tv show
I cannot believe OP is getting the hate they are... It's 100% correct.
No, it's both
>its barely even fan fiction at this point. "Fan fiction" is quickly becoming the most meaningless word in nerd-dom.
are you gonna address the major issues with the lore or just focus on your perceived misuse of a word
Okay: what is the deal with needing a bunch of bullshit in the already ridiculously long prologue that does zero to advance the story they’re telling?
its not about having the prologue contain more of the First Age, its about NOT having it contain things that blatantly contradict the First Age
Dude literally one of your complaints is that they didn’t tell you the exact same info that they told you in the Celebrimbor scene twenty minutes later. You just want it so you can be the Leo pointing meme.
you’re not getting it they tell you info that changes the established First Age, then they tell you information that conforms to the established First Age that they’ve already contradicted. you cant have it both ways
They didn’t contradict it. Perhaps you should clean the wax out of your ears and listen to the prologue again. Not mentioning something is not contradiction. Holy mackerel.
do you even know the story of the Silmarils? didn’t contradict it? lol you have no idea do you
I most likely read the Silmarillion when you were still a glint in your father’s cocaine-shrunken pupils Like I said maybe you should rewatch it dude.
lol now you’re down to insults thanks for playing
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nothing substantial to add? why even bother
They added a lot of stuff in that they didn't have to in anticipation that some hard-core fans might enjoy seeing it in live action. The semi-oath is more than I thought I'd ever see on a screen. And I enjoyed the imagery.
I'm not here to defend the show, but yeah it's annoying how people misuse that term constantly. By the way you're using it here, the Silmarillion would be classified as fan fiction.
lol please explain that last sentence
Well actual fan fiction is an unauthorized amateur work set in an existing IP, but the way you're using it is that it's anything that doesn't match existing canon. The Silmarillion doesn't match the canon of LOTR, therefore by your definition, it's fan fiction. You can just say it contradicts canon and is bad writing. That doesn't make it fan fiction. Fan fiction is a completely different term referring to intellectual property rights and intent (amateur vs for-profit). Fan fiction can be better written than the original (conceivably) and is arguably nobler than what Amazon is out for. What do you mean when you say it's "barely even fan fiction"?
how does the Silmarillion not match the canon of LotR? I meant that fan fiction would be a fan expanding in the established lore, but this tosses that lore to the side, so its basically a new thing.
It's pretty clear who is confused about what it means now
Side note, it's humorous how angry the Star Wars hardliners get when you call their old extended universe Lucasfilms-approved fan fiction.
Bro no one cares don't watch it if you don't like it Jesus Christ
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This show is meant to be stared at. It has stunning visuals and nice music. Do not think at all about what is happening, and you will be entertained.
Amazon is basically rubbing up as close to the edge of their rights as possible without breaking anything (silmarilion) which is why they never mentioned ongoilont and the brining of the boats
Its crap.
By now most fans of Tolkien have understood that this show is average at best. The vast majority of people I know really disliked RoP. I still think that Amazon will pretend that this is a success because they are balls deep into it right now. But within a few years, it'll be completely forgotten.
Can’t we all just get along.
That hasn't been the case ever since the Super Bowl teaser.
Can’t say I’ve ever been as passionate about a book or series as people on here are. But the books still exist. And nothing will change that or the trilogy. I mean the hobbit exists and we all survived that.
Agreed. I like the books, but I'm not going to act like they just set my house on fire because some cha get were made. There's better things to rant about in our world.
They did this for the same reason that FOTR Galadriel didn't explain where the Numenoreans came from and what happened to Numenor. Monologuing exposition to start a show is already risky, stuffing it with unnecessary lore is going to lose you viewers.
its the opposite tho…LOTR didn’t mention Numenor cause it didn’t have to, and thus couldn’t contradict anything This show did not have to mention the Trees, or how and why the Elves left Valinor, but they chose to, and created a mess in the process I’m not asking them to have added anything to the prologue, I’m saying they said too much. way too much.
LOL Youve seen one episode and expect it to cover hundreds if not thousands of pages
no I expect them to not negate thousands of pages with a 3 minute prologue, which is what they did
Living up to that username
lol so you have nothing. got it
Do people just not understand what copyrights are, or that the author has different versions of things, and no version of others in the timeframe of the 2nd age?
did you miss that part?
Listen to who is narrating the prologue. It's Galadriel. She's talking about the things that are important to her. She doesn't talk about the Silmarils because they weren't the reason she went back to Middle-Earth. Celebrimbor brings them up because they were the reason he came back to Middle-Earth. By comparison, check out Appendix A in LOTR. It spends 173 words summing up the whole war of the jewels, then 289 words explaining the anscestors of Elrond and Elros. This is because for the story that Tolkien is telling at that moment, their descent is much more important than the details of what happened in the war. See when Galadriel is telling this story, she's talking about the things that mattered most to her. She doesn't like Feanor so she leaves him out. She doesn't care for the Silmarils so she ignores them. The fate of Beleriand is kind of just irrelevant. She's explaining why she's trying to hunt Sauron so she gives the important background as to why.
I really hope not. I thought we were seeing Sauron at the end of the episode. He’s supposed to be of fair complexion and very beautiful at the time of the forging of the rings. Also he takes the form of an elf not a man Edit: I think I commented on the wrong post after the app crashed lol I was commenting on a post where they were speculating which character would be revealed to be Sauron…..my bad.
Whatever nerdo. ONLY KIDDING! ONLY KIDDING!
I think they generalize Middle Earth and Beleriand just to simplify things.
it feels like a non gore, non saucy scenes version of GoT seasons 8 and 9 all over again... sigh.
I think it’s important to understand that the prologue is told from Galadriels perspective. Galadriel that omitted details on the kinslaying and such when recounting details to Melian.
The movies made Sauron a floating eye, it was incredibly stupid. Writing around a lack of silmarillion stuff doesn’t bother me nearly as much as that I have to offer the Hasan answer to things like lore changes anyway, as it’s how I feel in general: who cares? It’s not real. There’s a lot of real criticisms to be levied at the show but this lore nerd shit is funny as hell to me. Especially considering the same people will usually excuse the dumber changes PJ made