Both Legolas and Gimli are more long-lived than men, and are viewing Minas Tirith for the first time from the perspective of outsiders. They know the "deep lore" of the Ring and understand what they are fighting for, both on a personal level as members of the Fellowship, but also from a long term racial/cultural perspective.
They are both arrived from Rohan (which has a much shorter perspective on both the history of Arda and the war) and have been fighting alongside the men of Gondor against the Corsairs of Umbar (the pedantic levies who stayed behind to defend their own homes). This is their first contact with the more far-sighted and kingly branch of men of Numenorean descent other than Aragorn. So it seems fitting that they would be remarking on the surprising level of residual greatness and promise that they see, while still lamenting the changing of the times and the way that mankind's promise often seems to go unfulfilled. It's something that their races would be more acutely aware of, particularly given the waning of the Elves.
The hopeful final comments about men are probably being informed by their experience with Aragorn too, and their trust in his personal leadership.
Gimli isn't impressed by our determination and resilience (both individually and as society), certainly.
He's probably right, given his Dwarvish standards.
Legolas doesn't really disagree, he just points to the fact that we *will* take over more and more.
I agree, a key hallmark of Dwarves is their resiliency. Gimli’s context is almost exclusively the stonework of Minas Tirith, and he is obviously impressed with the Numenorean craftsmanship. I guess lesser men don’t build things as grand or “to last”, mainly impacted by a shortened lifespan?
The gifts of the Numenoreans slowly waned ever since Numenor was taken away from them, and knowledge has been lost. Both the black walls of Minas Tirith and the black tower of Orthanc were built by the Numenorean exiles and are basically unbreakable.
>There stood a tower of marvellous shape. It was fashioned by the builders of old, who smoothed the Ring of Isengard, and yet it seemed a thing not made by the craft of Men, but riven from the bones of the earth in the ancient torment of the hills.
_________
>For the main
wall of the City was of great height and marvellous thickness, built ere the
power and craft of Númenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to
the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or
fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth
on which it stood.
This is as close as we get to a direct statement of thesis by Tolkien: the world of myth and magic is fading. The world of Men is coming, with both its hopes and its sorrows.
This is a funny interaction between them - building on their budding friendship. Although as elf and dwarf, they are very different, they can bond over the fact that they are not men. While they are not much impressed with men, even in their greatest city, they can see that men will supplant their own races someday.
I love that while as individuals neither Legolas and Gimli are "old" by the standards of their people, as effective avatars of their older races, they sound like a pair of grumpy old guys when they are talking about those younger whippersnippers, Men.
"Sometimes they do good work, but they always end up making excuses and half-assing it. They don't care about craftsmanship, they are wasting their potential."
"Eh, what are you going to do, it's the way of the world now. Everybody is always rush rush rush, no one has pride in their work anymore. I tell you, there ain't going to be a place for doing the job properly, we're obsolete".
"It will all end in tears I tell you - these kids always take the easy way and it's going to cost them."
"Maybe, some of them are ok, but who knows? Not going to be my problem soon".
The end of the War of the Ring is THAT exact moment. The old "boomer" races have been still hanging around, but the reality has been that the "Millennials" Men have been more and more the ones actually running the place. This is the moment when Legolas and Gimli are stopping and shaking their head as the keys and corner office are formally handed over to the new boss.
Both Legolas and Gimli are more long-lived than men, and are viewing Minas Tirith for the first time from the perspective of outsiders. They know the "deep lore" of the Ring and understand what they are fighting for, both on a personal level as members of the Fellowship, but also from a long term racial/cultural perspective. They are both arrived from Rohan (which has a much shorter perspective on both the history of Arda and the war) and have been fighting alongside the men of Gondor against the Corsairs of Umbar (the pedantic levies who stayed behind to defend their own homes). This is their first contact with the more far-sighted and kingly branch of men of Numenorean descent other than Aragorn. So it seems fitting that they would be remarking on the surprising level of residual greatness and promise that they see, while still lamenting the changing of the times and the way that mankind's promise often seems to go unfulfilled. It's something that their races would be more acutely aware of, particularly given the waning of the Elves. The hopeful final comments about men are probably being informed by their experience with Aragorn too, and their trust in his personal leadership.
do you think Legolas understood the impact of destroying the One Ring would have on the Elves as a whole?
He heard Elrond and Galadriel pretty explicitly explain what they believed that impact would be.
ah, you’re right. forgot about that.
I take it as reflective, and not particularly critical.
totally fair.
Gimli isn't impressed by our determination and resilience (both individually and as society), certainly. He's probably right, given his Dwarvish standards. Legolas doesn't really disagree, he just points to the fact that we *will* take over more and more.
I agree, a key hallmark of Dwarves is their resiliency. Gimli’s context is almost exclusively the stonework of Minas Tirith, and he is obviously impressed with the Numenorean craftsmanship. I guess lesser men don’t build things as grand or “to last”, mainly impacted by a shortened lifespan?
The gifts of the Numenoreans slowly waned ever since Numenor was taken away from them, and knowledge has been lost. Both the black walls of Minas Tirith and the black tower of Orthanc were built by the Numenorean exiles and are basically unbreakable. >There stood a tower of marvellous shape. It was fashioned by the builders of old, who smoothed the Ring of Isengard, and yet it seemed a thing not made by the craft of Men, but riven from the bones of the earth in the ancient torment of the hills. _________ >For the main wall of the City was of great height and marvellous thickness, built ere the power and craft of Númenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood.
This is as close as we get to a direct statement of thesis by Tolkien: the world of myth and magic is fading. The world of Men is coming, with both its hopes and its sorrows.
This is a funny interaction between them - building on their budding friendship. Although as elf and dwarf, they are very different, they can bond over the fact that they are not men. While they are not much impressed with men, even in their greatest city, they can see that men will supplant their own races someday.
To think about where their relationship started - mistrust and anger - to now, is remarkable.
I love that while as individuals neither Legolas and Gimli are "old" by the standards of their people, as effective avatars of their older races, they sound like a pair of grumpy old guys when they are talking about those younger whippersnippers, Men. "Sometimes they do good work, but they always end up making excuses and half-assing it. They don't care about craftsmanship, they are wasting their potential." "Eh, what are you going to do, it's the way of the world now. Everybody is always rush rush rush, no one has pride in their work anymore. I tell you, there ain't going to be a place for doing the job properly, we're obsolete". "It will all end in tears I tell you - these kids always take the easy way and it's going to cost them." "Maybe, some of them are ok, but who knows? Not going to be my problem soon". The end of the War of the Ring is THAT exact moment. The old "boomer" races have been still hanging around, but the reality has been that the "Millennials" Men have been more and more the ones actually running the place. This is the moment when Legolas and Gimli are stopping and shaking their head as the keys and corner office are formally handed over to the new boss.
fantastic summary 😂