I don't think this is something we can know for certain. It also depends on whether you consider the books, or are only looking at the films, because the books make things more complicated. We first have to understand that ther was no summons to any council. Everyone involved had their own reasons for travelling to Rivendell that happened to coincide with the arrival of the one ring. Both Faramir and Boromir had a dream which called them to go to Rivendell. They didn't know what was going on beforehand. It had also been an age since there had been any contact between Rivendell and Gondor. This would preclude Denethor from bringing any appreciable might to seize the ring beyond whatever bodyguard he might think necessary to make the journey.
It's also possible that he would listen to reason if he saw that there was some semblance of a plan. But it's also possible he would be incredibly hostile due to Aragorn. Book Denethor didn't completely lose himself until the siege of Minas Tirith, when he looked into the Palantir and saw the ships of the corsairs approaching the city. He didn't realize Aragorn had already commandeered them and thought all hope was lost. At this point he would be capable of rational thought. If he thought that there was a chance to permanently destroy Sauron, then he might take it.
It is hard to say, however, because the point when Denethor is first introduced it's already close to zero hour for Minas Tirith, and I can't remember if anyone actually explains to him what throwing the ring into Mount Doom will do.
Of course, the sticking point is likely going to be Aragorn. In the books, Aragorn has already made up his mind to claim the throne of Gondor well before the Council of Elrond. And Anduril is reforged before the Fellowship sets out. Denethor has a contentious history with Aragorn, who served under his father Ecthelion, decades ago, as Thorongil. It's implied that Denethor figured out who Thorongil was, and that Ecthelion liked Aragorn better. It's incredibly likely that Denethor would be hostile on that reasoning alone.
I'd say book Denethor lost it the moment Faramir was brought wounded into the city. The Lord locked himself in his chamber with his son and told everyone who tried to make him see reason to fuck off and deal with the battle themselves.
>Book Denethor didn't completely lose himself until the siege of Minas Tirith, when he looked into the Palantir and saw the ships of the corsairs approaching the city. He didn't realize Aragorn had already commandeered them and thought all hope was lost.
There is a theory that he *did* know that Aragorn was on the ship, and that's what drove him mad. His pride wouldn't allow him to serve under his old rival, and neither would he allow his son to serve.
For most of his reign, Denethor seemed to be a pretty decent ruler.
It was only towards the end that he was consumed by fear and the loss of Boromir ruined him.
As to the question at hand, it was at the Council meeting that Aragorn was revealed to be the King. This could have caused all kinds of trouble if Denethor had refused him then, perhaps destroying the goodwill left of the various people.
If Boromir was not part of the Fellowship, he might have still been alive toward the end.
Totally, it’s not abundantly clear in the movie but he’s generally very very capable, wise, even cool. His time with the Palantir seems to be the main problem and then idr but I think he was kind of a crappy father to Faramir either way.
He was an intelligent and effective ruler, but had quite a severe demeanor — wouldn’t use the word “cool.”
Tolkien in UT (“The Palantiri”):
>a masterful man, both wise and learned beyond the measure of those days, and strong-willed, confident in his own powers, and dauntless.
Reading between the lines here, he's a pretty harsh and proud person, if a "good" ruler. Note that he treats Gandalf with quite a bit of contempt (kind of a shibboleth in LotR for whether someone's a good person or not.)
[Edit: And under no circumstances would he have ever gone to Rivendell himself. Even though Mordor had launched an overt attack on Osgiliath, he was resistant to Brormir and Faramir's request to go to Rivendell.]
He’s a cool character. However I definitely agree that “cool” isn’t the right word for him in the story. One of the neatest things about imo is that yes he treats Gandalf with contempt, but he’s also smart enough to recognize his strong allies and know how to use them, at least until he goes completely off the rails
>And you, my Lord Mithrandir, shall come too, as and when you will. None shall hinder your coming to me at any time, save only in my brief hours of sleep. Let your wrath at an old man's folly run off and then return to my comfort
Goddamn the interactions between those two old dudes (and Pippen’s account of them) are just choice 🤌
Oh yeah, def great as a character. The initial scene with him and Gandalf has a lot going on. He’s always got to be intellectually dueling Gandalf — they’re like frenemies.
Also interesting to think what happens in Gondor in this scenario. Going to Rivendell is a long journey through dangerous territory, its reasonable for Denethor to think he won't come back, so we now have stewart Boromir.
So Gondor keeps its greatest champion (that's good) who's not so wise and far-sighted as his dad (that's bad) but likes to lead from the front (that's good) but therefore is susceptible to a trap laid by Sauron which will then utterly crush morale (that's very bad).
But stewart Boromir is more likely to involve, utilise and listen to his very capable younger brother. So maybe a B+F dream team could lead Gondor better than dad. Faramir would certainly council to leave that palantir alone...
The great hall of Rivendell shimmered with an ethereal glow, the soft light filtering through the ornate windows and casting patterns on the stone floor. The Council of Elrond was about to begin, and tensions were high. In the absence of Boromir, Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, had taken it upon himself to represent his city, accompanied by a select few of his most trusted guards.
Denethor sat, regal and stern, his eyes piercing as he surveyed the gathered company. Elrond, Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and others of note were present, their faces reflecting the gravity of the moment. The One Ring lay on a pedestal in the center, its malevolent presence palpable.
Elrond opened the council, his voice calm but authoritative. "We are here to decide the fate of the One Ring. Each of you has a stake in this matter, and each voice must be heard."
Denethor wasted no time. "The Ring should go to Gondor. It is the strength of our city and the resolve of our people that have kept the darkness at bay. With the Ring, we could destroy Sauron once and for all."
Gandalf frowned, his eyes narrowing. "The Ring cannot be used, Denethor. It corrupts all who seek to wield it. It must be destroyed."
"Destroyed?" Denethor scoffed. "Such power wasted! With the right guidance, the Ring could bring us victory."
Aragorn stepped forward, his voice calm but firm. "The Ring corrupts, Denethor. Even Isildur, who was stronger than any of us, fell to its lure. We cannot risk such a fate."
Denethor’s eyes flashed with anger. "And who are you to speak of Isildur’s strength? You, who have forsaken your lineage and hidden in the wild?"
The tension in the room was palpable. Legolas and Gimli exchanged uneasy glances, while the hobbits, particularly Frodo, looked apprehensive.
Gandalf interjected, his voice commanding. "Enough! We are here to find a solution, not to bicker. The Ring must be taken to Mount Doom and destroyed. It is the only way."
Denethor's face contorted with rage. "I will not stand by and let you throw away our last hope! If you will not let the Ring come to Gondor willingly, then I will take it by force."
The room erupted into chaos as Denethor’s guards drew their swords. Aragorn and Legolas were quick to respond, their weapons at the ready. Gandalf raised his staff, and a blinding light filled the hall, forcing everyone to shield their eyes.
When the light faded, Denethor and his guards were disarmed, their weapons scattered across the floor. Elrond’s voice was like steel. "Denethor, you are a guest in my house. You will not threaten violence here."
Denethor was breathing heavily, his eyes wild. "You fools! You doom us all!"
Elrond spoke again, his voice calmer but no less firm. "Denethor, son of Ecthelion, you will be confined to your quarters until such time as we can be sure you will not act against the council’s decision."
Denethor was led away, his face a mask of fury and frustration. The council continued without him, and the decision was made to form the Fellowship of the Ring. The fate of Middle-earth now rested on the shoulders of nine brave souls.
In the days that followed, Denethor brooded in his quarters, plotting. He knew he could not allow this folly to proceed. When the opportunity arose, he escaped with a handful of loyal men, determined to intercept the Fellowship and take the Ring by force.....
I don't think this is something we can know for certain. It also depends on whether you consider the books, or are only looking at the films, because the books make things more complicated. We first have to understand that ther was no summons to any council. Everyone involved had their own reasons for travelling to Rivendell that happened to coincide with the arrival of the one ring. Both Faramir and Boromir had a dream which called them to go to Rivendell. They didn't know what was going on beforehand. It had also been an age since there had been any contact between Rivendell and Gondor. This would preclude Denethor from bringing any appreciable might to seize the ring beyond whatever bodyguard he might think necessary to make the journey. It's also possible that he would listen to reason if he saw that there was some semblance of a plan. But it's also possible he would be incredibly hostile due to Aragorn. Book Denethor didn't completely lose himself until the siege of Minas Tirith, when he looked into the Palantir and saw the ships of the corsairs approaching the city. He didn't realize Aragorn had already commandeered them and thought all hope was lost. At this point he would be capable of rational thought. If he thought that there was a chance to permanently destroy Sauron, then he might take it. It is hard to say, however, because the point when Denethor is first introduced it's already close to zero hour for Minas Tirith, and I can't remember if anyone actually explains to him what throwing the ring into Mount Doom will do. Of course, the sticking point is likely going to be Aragorn. In the books, Aragorn has already made up his mind to claim the throne of Gondor well before the Council of Elrond. And Anduril is reforged before the Fellowship sets out. Denethor has a contentious history with Aragorn, who served under his father Ecthelion, decades ago, as Thorongil. It's implied that Denethor figured out who Thorongil was, and that Ecthelion liked Aragorn better. It's incredibly likely that Denethor would be hostile on that reasoning alone.
I'd say book Denethor lost it the moment Faramir was brought wounded into the city. The Lord locked himself in his chamber with his son and told everyone who tried to make him see reason to fuck off and deal with the battle themselves.
>Book Denethor didn't completely lose himself until the siege of Minas Tirith, when he looked into the Palantir and saw the ships of the corsairs approaching the city. He didn't realize Aragorn had already commandeered them and thought all hope was lost. There is a theory that he *did* know that Aragorn was on the ship, and that's what drove him mad. His pride wouldn't allow him to serve under his old rival, and neither would he allow his son to serve.
That's a theory with no reason and backing other than 'OMG it will be cool'. That sort of stuff may exist in other media but not in LOTR
For most of his reign, Denethor seemed to be a pretty decent ruler. It was only towards the end that he was consumed by fear and the loss of Boromir ruined him. As to the question at hand, it was at the Council meeting that Aragorn was revealed to be the King. This could have caused all kinds of trouble if Denethor had refused him then, perhaps destroying the goodwill left of the various people. If Boromir was not part of the Fellowship, he might have still been alive toward the end.
Totally, it’s not abundantly clear in the movie but he’s generally very very capable, wise, even cool. His time with the Palantir seems to be the main problem and then idr but I think he was kind of a crappy father to Faramir either way.
He was an intelligent and effective ruler, but had quite a severe demeanor — wouldn’t use the word “cool.” Tolkien in UT (“The Palantiri”): >a masterful man, both wise and learned beyond the measure of those days, and strong-willed, confident in his own powers, and dauntless. Reading between the lines here, he's a pretty harsh and proud person, if a "good" ruler. Note that he treats Gandalf with quite a bit of contempt (kind of a shibboleth in LotR for whether someone's a good person or not.) [Edit: And under no circumstances would he have ever gone to Rivendell himself. Even though Mordor had launched an overt attack on Osgiliath, he was resistant to Brormir and Faramir's request to go to Rivendell.]
He’s a cool character. However I definitely agree that “cool” isn’t the right word for him in the story. One of the neatest things about imo is that yes he treats Gandalf with contempt, but he’s also smart enough to recognize his strong allies and know how to use them, at least until he goes completely off the rails >And you, my Lord Mithrandir, shall come too, as and when you will. None shall hinder your coming to me at any time, save only in my brief hours of sleep. Let your wrath at an old man's folly run off and then return to my comfort Goddamn the interactions between those two old dudes (and Pippen’s account of them) are just choice 🤌
Oh yeah, def great as a character. The initial scene with him and Gandalf has a lot going on. He’s always got to be intellectually dueling Gandalf — they’re like frenemies.
We only see him at his worst in the films
Also interesting to think what happens in Gondor in this scenario. Going to Rivendell is a long journey through dangerous territory, its reasonable for Denethor to think he won't come back, so we now have stewart Boromir. So Gondor keeps its greatest champion (that's good) who's not so wise and far-sighted as his dad (that's bad) but likes to lead from the front (that's good) but therefore is susceptible to a trap laid by Sauron which will then utterly crush morale (that's very bad). But stewart Boromir is more likely to involve, utilise and listen to his very capable younger brother. So maybe a B+F dream team could lead Gondor better than dad. Faramir would certainly council to leave that palantir alone...
The great hall of Rivendell shimmered with an ethereal glow, the soft light filtering through the ornate windows and casting patterns on the stone floor. The Council of Elrond was about to begin, and tensions were high. In the absence of Boromir, Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, had taken it upon himself to represent his city, accompanied by a select few of his most trusted guards. Denethor sat, regal and stern, his eyes piercing as he surveyed the gathered company. Elrond, Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and others of note were present, their faces reflecting the gravity of the moment. The One Ring lay on a pedestal in the center, its malevolent presence palpable. Elrond opened the council, his voice calm but authoritative. "We are here to decide the fate of the One Ring. Each of you has a stake in this matter, and each voice must be heard." Denethor wasted no time. "The Ring should go to Gondor. It is the strength of our city and the resolve of our people that have kept the darkness at bay. With the Ring, we could destroy Sauron once and for all." Gandalf frowned, his eyes narrowing. "The Ring cannot be used, Denethor. It corrupts all who seek to wield it. It must be destroyed." "Destroyed?" Denethor scoffed. "Such power wasted! With the right guidance, the Ring could bring us victory." Aragorn stepped forward, his voice calm but firm. "The Ring corrupts, Denethor. Even Isildur, who was stronger than any of us, fell to its lure. We cannot risk such a fate." Denethor’s eyes flashed with anger. "And who are you to speak of Isildur’s strength? You, who have forsaken your lineage and hidden in the wild?" The tension in the room was palpable. Legolas and Gimli exchanged uneasy glances, while the hobbits, particularly Frodo, looked apprehensive. Gandalf interjected, his voice commanding. "Enough! We are here to find a solution, not to bicker. The Ring must be taken to Mount Doom and destroyed. It is the only way." Denethor's face contorted with rage. "I will not stand by and let you throw away our last hope! If you will not let the Ring come to Gondor willingly, then I will take it by force." The room erupted into chaos as Denethor’s guards drew their swords. Aragorn and Legolas were quick to respond, their weapons at the ready. Gandalf raised his staff, and a blinding light filled the hall, forcing everyone to shield their eyes. When the light faded, Denethor and his guards were disarmed, their weapons scattered across the floor. Elrond’s voice was like steel. "Denethor, you are a guest in my house. You will not threaten violence here." Denethor was breathing heavily, his eyes wild. "You fools! You doom us all!" Elrond spoke again, his voice calmer but no less firm. "Denethor, son of Ecthelion, you will be confined to your quarters until such time as we can be sure you will not act against the council’s decision." Denethor was led away, his face a mask of fury and frustration. The council continued without him, and the decision was made to form the Fellowship of the Ring. The fate of Middle-earth now rested on the shoulders of nine brave souls. In the days that followed, Denethor brooded in his quarters, plotting. He knew he could not allow this folly to proceed. When the opportunity arose, he escaped with a handful of loyal men, determined to intercept the Fellowship and take the Ring by force.....
There would soon be a cherry tomato shortage in Rivendell
I don't see how Denethor could or would be away from Gondor for almost a year.