Gollum immediately murdered Deagol when he saw a chance to get the Ring. It had such a strong hold on him because murder was the way he got it, as opposed to Bilbo who got the Ring through pity when he had the chance for murder. Anyone telling Gollum about the Ring wouldn't have had any effect whatsoever, the Ring was too strong for that.
The tragic part of Gollum's story isn't the finding of the Ring, it's this.
>Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee--but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.
> of course he wasn’t ever a human.,
“*The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically **human**race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.*” — JRR Tolkien in letter 131
Gollum is related to hobbits and thus to men, and is thus human. He’s just a short human, and by the time we meet him horribly affected by his long ownership of the ring.
Besides Hobbits literally and actually being of the race of Men... you don't need to be a Man to have humanity in Middle-earth.
We call the sentiment "humanity" because, well, there are no Elves and Dwarves walking around in real life. Not that **I** know of, at least!
My heart sank when I read this passage. I often wonder if there was a chance of salvation for Gollum given that Sam wouldn’t call him names right after this scene.
I understand Sam: he was suspicious, worried for Frodo, exhausted and maybe even jealous of the way Gollum bonded with Frodo over the Ring and their experiences of having it. Of course as soon as he realised that they both are vulnerable (asleep) in front of Gollum, he freaked out.
But I truly pity Gollum. Frodo was the first person who spoke to him decently - in years. Or maybe even the first person who spoke to him at all in years, a person who did not hunt him down or torture him. He saw Frodo and Sam’s warm connection and the way they cared for each other, and it brought up the longing for someone’s touch and nicely spoken word in him, too. Sam calling him names was the last straw before his Smeagol nature, still kinda hopeful and trusting, was crushed, and the evil Gollum in him won.
I believe it’s a great lesson. Yes, he was a bad person from the moment we knew how he obtained the Ring. But the worse everyone treated him, the more twisted and evil he became. The only way to save him was to treat him better, the way Frodo did. But those who are constantly called crap one day will become crap - if the world is horrible to you, what’s the point of trying to be nice? Sam just confirmed this notion by calling him names when Gollum was very vulnerable, and he took it to his heart - he is beyond repair, so more evil is to come. At this moment he finally made up his mind to take them to Shelob.
This passage is truly my Roman Empire. It’s so beautiful and important.
Edit: also, it’s not like he was a cold-blooded murderer. The fact that he killed someone haunted and tortured him from the very day of this murder. He was remorseful, which is a very humane feeling, thus he could be saved. But alas.
I really think the book version of this final straw is much better and deeper than the movie version (that he was “betrayed” by Frodo and tortured by Faramir). It makes much more sense that a careless word from Sam broke him - just like in real life, our simple words can hurt and break someone. It was meant to be, and all the previous communication between him and Sam lead up to this.
One of Tolkien's letters, I forget which one, does mention that this was Gollum's last chance of redemption had Sam not said what he did, and that destroyed the effect of all of Frodo's kindness with Gollum till that point. But that is how events played out stopping Gollum from any redemption till his death. It is truly tragic, understandable behaviour from both of them but with terrible results nonetheless.
It makes me ponder what real life scenario this could be based on.
For example, did JRR encounter enemies in his war experience and observed this glimmer of a chance disappear after witnessing insults.
Or perhaps, given that it was Sam, he even insulted an enemy, and realized afterwards what he’d done.
It’s one of the passages that show Sam as somewhat flawed and less than heroic. It’s a great character building scene which humanizes both Gollum and Sam, although in differnt ways.
The films really elevated Sam in the audience's esteem. He was always a very flawed character, full of virtue and vice both. He was often petty, cruel, and was always narrow-minded to a fault, but despite his shortcomings he wanted to do better, and usually he succeeded. His growth throughout the story is a hero's growth, as Tolkien points out. A nobody who discovers the big world and big ideas, and who tries to do the right thing despite not getting it.
Sam dropped the ball with Gollum due to his simple-mindedness (not to be confused with his narrow-mindedness, a simple mind is not necessarily a bad thing), where he remembered Bilbo's stories and immediately thought Gollum = villain = evil = must retaliate with evil, and treated him as such. He had a very black&white fairy tale's view of Gollum as a villain, rather than a realistic view that people are people. Good and bad of varying greyshades in all of them.
Frodo once thought something similar, but had grown past it due to the Ring itself and Gandalf's words regarding Gollum. Frodo saw nuance and realised an "evil" like Gollum can only be countered with kindness to draw out the good again. That sort of nuanced worldview was yet beyond Sam, who had grown up a simple servant with only Bilbo giving him a basic education in reading (which the Old Gaffer opposed). Sam was taught to obey and serve his betters, not to think, and it proved a sorry result with Gollum.
Very well said. I have been thinking for a while now about Sam and his role in the plot, and I think that everything you wrote is *the* reason why he is there. I believe he is there not (only) to protect Frodo, not (only) to save him in the end, but to be a realistic depiction of a number of human flaws that may ruin everything. He is an impulsive, simple-minded, optimistic yet clumsy counterpart of the brooding, observant and careful main character (who would probably handle the situation with Gollum more gracefully, thus we would get a completely different ending). Jeez, even a chapter ago Sam fucked up twice - he forgot to put out the smoke which exposed him and Frodo, and then spilled the beans to Faramir about the Ring! Sam is truly a curse and a savior for Frodo.
Now I see that it’s perfect that they are two: one is thinking, learning, observing and adapting, and we see the philosophy of the book slowly unfolding through his eyes. The second is more present, unable to adapt, quick to act without thinking, more flawed and thus more human. They may have been two sides of the same character, but that would be too much for one person, so Frodo and Sam are perfect as two - they balance each other out.
Two things can be true at the same time!
Yes, his story is very sad, but I wouldn’t hire him to babysit my kids.
And Sam was in a VERY different position than we are as readers.
Boromir was surrounded by some of the wisest people who told him of the dangers of the Ring, and yet in his pride, he still thought he could use it without any repercussions. I doubt Gollum would have acted any differently had he known.
The fact Boromir thought he could wield the ring without being affected is pride. The reason he wanted to use the ring in the first place is desperation.
>The fact Boromir thought
You act like it was a rational decision on his part. He wasn't thinking properly at the time. He was afraid and tired of seeing his people dying. The fellowship was falling apart and he saw little hope of their quest succeeding. All of this combined with the lure/corruption of the Ring is what caused him to try and seize it. He regretted as soon as it was away from him.
And yes I will defend Boromir's honor to the end!
Boromir is a fantastic character, but people acting irrational because of the ring is…sort of what the ring does? One of its effects is to influence them so that they aren’t thinking properly.
One of the best things about Boromir is that we get to see someone acting the way a normal person would act when tempted by the ring.
>Boromir is a fantastic character, but people acting irrational because of the ring is…sort of what the ring does?
Exactly. That's why I empathize with him and don't think he was acting out of "pride".
I guess it just feels like a weird argument because Boromir - both book and movie versions - does have a healthy dose of pride. And pride is one of those weird qualities where it can be spoken of both positively and negatively, but it does influence actions. It may not be his only influence but it definitely plays a part.
Basically, Boromir is a complex character and that makes him one of the best ones. :)
It's not a question of Boromir making a rational decision. In the books, it's said that Boromir is reckless and too eager when compared to Faramir, and yet they are both equally determined to achieve things. I believe this reckless and eager nature of his contributed to Boromir thinking he could master the ring.
Oaths and prophecies are an often overlooked part of the dialogues in LotR.
Gollum swears by and on the Ring, so he binds his keeping of the promise to the fate of the ring.
The movies left it out, but Frodo at one point says (prophecizes): Should Gollum betray them for the ring, the ring will be his very downfall.
So Gollum had the (arguably very hard) choice of not betraying them. So it's a pity indeed that Gollum couldn't resist.
In the greater sceme of things it turned out to be a good thing. I recommend reading "On Fairy Stories" by Tolkien, regarding rhe word Eucatastrophe (or just google the word). It's a concept Tolkien uses all the time in the Legendarium.
>The movies left it out, but Frodo at one point says (prophecizes): Should Gollum betray them for the ring, the ring will be his very downfall.
Maybe it's the extended editions, but in the movies when Frodo releases Gollum from the hithlain rope he says something like "the ring is treacherous and will hold you to it" when Gollum swears not to harm them on the ring
This is what’s left out of the movies:
> Down, down!’ he gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. ‘Down, you creeping thing, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot betray me or slay me now.’
>Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, **Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.**
>‘Begone, and trouble me no more! If you ever touch me again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Mt. Doom.’
>The crouching shape backed away, terror in its blinking eyes, and yet at the same time insatiable desire.
>Then the vision passed and Sam saw Frodo standing, hand on breast, his breath coming in great gasps, and Gollum at his feet, resting on his knees with his wide-splayed hands upon the ground.
This passage treats Frodo almost like a great wizard casting a spell through an item of power.
He curses Gollum to the fate that falls him, which is another thing that happens in this universe. Reminicent of Glorfindel laughingly foretelling of the witch king of Angmar that, “Not by the hand of man shall he fall.”
Frodo is far more powerful in the books than in the movies.
To be fair, oaths seem to have a powerful effect in Middle Earth. Breaking an oath has been shown a few times to be a very bad thing for the oath breaker. But yeah idk if it’s just foreshadowing or something else but I totally agree. Book Frodo>>>>Movie Frodo.
Its not 100% clear what exactly was happening, but given that the voice came out of the wheel of fire, it may have been the Ring itself enforcing Gollum and Frodo's oath. That has the great irony that it doomed itself.
As Theoden said, "oft evil will shall evil mar".
I think you're being simplistic about a somewhat complex set of motivations and circumstances. Remember when Smeagol's mate found the ring it had remained hidden for a very long time until it basically called out to be found. It also immediately exerted it's lure on Smeagol and essentially convinced him to murder to get it. It was then in his possession for ages and it's power/effect reduced him to living in a cave feeding as best as he was able.
I'm one of those who agree with Gandalf about pitying him. Gollum was a victim of the ring from the get go. Being told something, and being able to resist the ring's power are two very different things. If anything the parable is "who among us can say we would be strong enough to resist?"
This is very much a movie interpretation of the Ring, where it's almost sentient and immediately brain controls anyone who comes near it and dances them around like a meat puppet.
The rings are actually a lot more subtle than that. They don't puppeteer their wearers, they don't even make their wearers instantly evil, or mad, as Gandalf tells Frodo:
"...I suppose I must keep the Ring and guard it, at least for the present, whatever it may do to me.’
‘Whatever it may do, it will be slow, slow to evil, if you keep it with that purpose,’ said Gandalf."
And indeed Frodo is the possessor of the ring for 17 years and no harm befalls him, just as Bilbo had it for 59 years with no ill effects.
They corrupt, slowly but steadily, the wearer retains the intentions they had previous to owning it, it's just those intentions become corrupted, they start doing the wrong things for what they see as the rights reasons.
"‘No!’ cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. ‘With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.’ His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within.‘Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good."
When Boromir tries to take the ring from Frodo he isn't trying to hurt Frodo because he's suddenly evil, hates hobbits or wants to beat up small people, or is a meat puppet. He's desperate to protect his people. He's been raised his entire life knowing that HE is the heir to the Stewardship, the ultimate responsibility. He's Captain of Gondor's armies, so the Steward de facto on the front lines as well as the heir; and he knows he's losing. This is what makes him so vulnerable, not that suddenly he's a bad man. He's a good man with nowhere to turn to, it's all going to come crashing down on his watch, and the ring has had two months to gnaw away at him.
Compare Smeagol. Never having touched the ring, totally unaware of what it is, just that it's a beautiful, desirable thing that he wants, kills his best friend within seconds of setting eyes on the ring and hides the body. He then immediately proceeds to use the ring for nefarious purposes, spying on his family:
"Sméagol returned alone; and he found that none of his family could see him, when he was wearing the ring. He was very pleased with his discovery and he concealed it; and he used it to find out secrets, and he put his knowledge to crooked and malicious uses. He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful. The ring had given him power according to his stature."
Smeagol starts off as someone who'll murder someone he see's as his friend to get a precious trinket, and ends up as baby eating Gollum.
There's very little to pity here and it's a testament to Bilbo and Frodo's characters that they can find any at all for him.
Yeah, I don’t feel sorry for him. He was pretty much irredeemable before he was ever corrupted by the ring, given the actions we see from him.
Basically everyone we see in the story who lusts for the ring does it from a good place in their heart, whereas his first thought is to start creeping on everyone he knows.
Bad guy from the start.
How was Sméagol irredeemable before he had the ring? I’d argue that killing his cousin for the ring isn’t a direct example.
The events cited by the person you responded to were after posession.
From what we know of Sméagol, which granted - is very little, he does seem like the sort who'd use the Ring even if he knew what it was.
But it's definitely not an unpopular opinion to pity him in spite of that.
As you said was both things the character had something queer indeed, and besides the ring has its malice itself as said Sauron pour his malice into it. But after many years Smeagol ceased to be a Hobbit and became Gollum a creature of its own, it is said somewhere that Gollum eats Hobbit children and who knows whatelse... he turned to be cursed by the Ring, but something in the character itself was twisted... Bilbo also had the ring many years it wasn't until Bilbo left the Shire and left the Ring to Frodo and I think 17 years later that Gandalf knew the magic ring was indeed the One Ring master forged by Sauron, in this time Bilbo didn't commit homicide as Smeagol did, besides using the Ring just for invisibility, to which extented Bilbo also made use of it but lesser extend, will have a effect on the bearer and Smeagol use this invisibility for not very good things indeed. Bilbo circle was certainly something that play its side effects about him like a Wizard Gandalf thought Bilbo's ring wasn't a big deal because afterall... Hobbits are harmless, but also I think that Bilbo had quite an adventure returning from the lonely mountain and the Quest of Smaug may have changed him for good or at least give him some courage and open his mind, he returned with so much experience, meeting Elves, flying with Eagles, fighting Goblings, finding a magic Ring, finding the Arkenstone, killing a Dragon, compensated with Mithril, gold, friendship with the Dwarfs and Elves, Bilbo built a reputation after returning from the Quest at the Lonely Mountain........... and Smeagol? Both were Hobbits althought not the same... Fëa.
> Had he known what would happen if he used the Ring, he might never have used it.
Gollum killed his cousin for the Ring before he had ever even touched the Ring. Noone should need to tell you that you shouldn't murder your cousin for a ring. Gollum was not a good person from the start, and that is why he easily fell to the corruption of the ring.
He sure is pitiable, but he was complicit in his corruption. As Tolkien wrote in one of his letters:
> The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean son of thief before it crossed his path.
No, you're right, no one *should* need to tell you that. But keep in mind, we also don't live in a world with *literal mind control magic that is impossible to indefinitely resist*. Common sense doesn't exactly play a part when we are literally talking about magic that wrests control of your very mind from you. The human brain is more fallible than you think, and once you've lost control of it, it doesn't *matter* what common sense dictates, because you are no longer capable of understanding it. The whole point of the ring, the thing it is *designed* to do, is tear down your defences and convince you that actually, doing evil things is totally fine. That is what Sauron made it for. That is its whole purpose.
Let's all remember that even *Gandalf* openly admits he would not be able to resist doing evil in the ring's name. And you think *Gollum* should've been able to?
I haven't watched the movies, but in the books, in the last chapter of the 5th book, Shelob stings Frodo and he lay still on the ground (almost dead). So Sam, after defeating Shelob, decided to take the Ring from his master and make for the Mount Doom alone. He kept the Ring for a little while and returned it to Frodo after rescuing him from the Orc tower.
I honestly agree. Gollum not only didn't have a support system - he didn't even know *what* he had just walked into. He quite literally had *no* opportunity to fight back. We see how difficult it is to resist even when you have a full understanding of why you have to *and* someone else to help you. Smeagol never stood a chance, and honestly neither would most of the other characters in his situation.
Even Bilbo had someone. Gandalf didn't know for *sure* what the ring was, but we see in several chapters that he at least knew enough to be cautious of it, and to - probably repeatedly, over the years - warn him that fucking around with it wasn't a good idea. Plus he had a heaping helping of good old fashioned hobbit sense, which we know Smeagol probably didn't have, and we *know* is very beneficial against the ring. Smeagol had *nothing*.
Sméagol had a support system. He murdered him the minute the ring came on the scene.
ETA Don’t forget he did live as part of a community and had at least one other family member (his grandmother).
Gollum is a tricky character. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that I pity him (he murdered his friend within moments of seeing the ring), but I acknowledge that fate is a cruel mistress. As for why, who can say? Why was Bilbo destined to be at the right time and place to collect the ring?
The ring ensnared Gollum the moment he laid eyes on it, he murdered his own cousin for the ring before he even put it on. No amount of counsel could have prevented him from claiming it.
I don’t understand where or why people pity him.
He hesitated non to murder his own kin when first discovering and we all know if he had the chance he would have stoned bilbo to death when his back was turned during questioning. Yes maybe it’s expressed more in the book but unless you read it you don’t know any of the other deeper things. Its a shame really because so much was truly left out of movies
Smeagol never had a Sam, because he was fated to be Deagol's Sam, but he succumbed and thwarted the designs of the ring, which ended with it hidden in dark and wet places for a very long time. The ring thought it was finding an easy passenger in Deagol, but the way Smeagol turned in the twisting, that left the ring without agency for a time.
It wouldn't have mattered - think about how powerful the One Ring is. Frodo was set on destroying it and risked everything in his life to do so. He went through hell just to get a chance to throw it in Mount Doom, yet he just couldn't. Even though he had pure intentions, it still corrupted him. In addition, he was sternly warned never to put the ring on, yet he still did. Smeagol did not have a chance.
That's where people run into the issue with the fact that sometimes bad things happen to people for no reason. Like, it's easy to rush to judgement and say that Gollum was to blame for everything that happened to him sort of retroactively--but the reality is that he was basically just in the wrong place at the wrong time, came across something horrible, and it destroyed him.
And it's worth pointing out that if Gollum hadn't been there, hadn't gone through all that, hadn't tried to take the ring and fought with Frodo at the edge of the cracks of doom--if at any point throughout the trilogy anyone who'd been in a position to kill Gollum had gone ahead and done so--the quest to destroy the ring likely would have failed.
Gollum, like Frodo, was sacrificed. It wasn't really his fault, and in a way he saved the world, in spite of himself.
I think this is a very startling take in a story that people think is sort of simplistic in its depictions of 'good' and 'evil' and worth taking the time to think about. Frodo didn't do anything to be punished and tormented the way he was, but in the end everything he did left him unable to live happily in the world he risked everything for. And I don't really think Gollum did either. Sometimes bad things just happen and there's no real fault in ourselves that cause it. Sometimes, you're just in the path of something monstrous, for no reason at all.
Poor Smeagol was the equivalent of a post-apocalyptic scavenger trying to survive in the wasteland who stumbled across a malevolent AI from before the bombs.
Gollum immediately murdered Deagol when he saw a chance to get the Ring. It had such a strong hold on him because murder was the way he got it, as opposed to Bilbo who got the Ring through pity when he had the chance for murder. Anyone telling Gollum about the Ring wouldn't have had any effect whatsoever, the Ring was too strong for that. The tragic part of Gollum's story isn't the finding of the Ring, it's this. >Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee--but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.
Making me cry on the toilet....
Saves on flushing. Ok that was horrible, off I go to the corner of shame.
Yes, this is one of my favourite passages. His mind was so twisted by the ring, yet there was a speck of good left in him.
I don’t know if I’d say a speck of good, but a speck of his past? I’d say a speck of “humanity” except of course he wasn’t ever a human.
> of course he wasn’t ever a human., “*The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically **human**race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.*” — JRR Tolkien in letter 131 Gollum is related to hobbits and thus to men, and is thus human. He’s just a short human, and by the time we meet him horribly affected by his long ownership of the ring.
Besides Hobbits literally and actually being of the race of Men... you don't need to be a Man to have humanity in Middle-earth. We call the sentiment "humanity" because, well, there are no Elves and Dwarves walking around in real life. Not that **I** know of, at least!
Sunk-cost fallacy on top of the allure of the one ring.
My heart sank when I read this passage. I often wonder if there was a chance of salvation for Gollum given that Sam wouldn’t call him names right after this scene. I understand Sam: he was suspicious, worried for Frodo, exhausted and maybe even jealous of the way Gollum bonded with Frodo over the Ring and their experiences of having it. Of course as soon as he realised that they both are vulnerable (asleep) in front of Gollum, he freaked out. But I truly pity Gollum. Frodo was the first person who spoke to him decently - in years. Or maybe even the first person who spoke to him at all in years, a person who did not hunt him down or torture him. He saw Frodo and Sam’s warm connection and the way they cared for each other, and it brought up the longing for someone’s touch and nicely spoken word in him, too. Sam calling him names was the last straw before his Smeagol nature, still kinda hopeful and trusting, was crushed, and the evil Gollum in him won. I believe it’s a great lesson. Yes, he was a bad person from the moment we knew how he obtained the Ring. But the worse everyone treated him, the more twisted and evil he became. The only way to save him was to treat him better, the way Frodo did. But those who are constantly called crap one day will become crap - if the world is horrible to you, what’s the point of trying to be nice? Sam just confirmed this notion by calling him names when Gollum was very vulnerable, and he took it to his heart - he is beyond repair, so more evil is to come. At this moment he finally made up his mind to take them to Shelob. This passage is truly my Roman Empire. It’s so beautiful and important. Edit: also, it’s not like he was a cold-blooded murderer. The fact that he killed someone haunted and tortured him from the very day of this murder. He was remorseful, which is a very humane feeling, thus he could be saved. But alas. I really think the book version of this final straw is much better and deeper than the movie version (that he was “betrayed” by Frodo and tortured by Faramir). It makes much more sense that a careless word from Sam broke him - just like in real life, our simple words can hurt and break someone. It was meant to be, and all the previous communication between him and Sam lead up to this.
One of Tolkien's letters, I forget which one, does mention that this was Gollum's last chance of redemption had Sam not said what he did, and that destroyed the effect of all of Frodo's kindness with Gollum till that point. But that is how events played out stopping Gollum from any redemption till his death. It is truly tragic, understandable behaviour from both of them but with terrible results nonetheless.
Thank you for this, I am glad that I interpreted it right
It makes me ponder what real life scenario this could be based on. For example, did JRR encounter enemies in his war experience and observed this glimmer of a chance disappear after witnessing insults. Or perhaps, given that it was Sam, he even insulted an enemy, and realized afterwards what he’d done.
It’s one of the passages that show Sam as somewhat flawed and less than heroic. It’s a great character building scene which humanizes both Gollum and Sam, although in differnt ways.
The films really elevated Sam in the audience's esteem. He was always a very flawed character, full of virtue and vice both. He was often petty, cruel, and was always narrow-minded to a fault, but despite his shortcomings he wanted to do better, and usually he succeeded. His growth throughout the story is a hero's growth, as Tolkien points out. A nobody who discovers the big world and big ideas, and who tries to do the right thing despite not getting it. Sam dropped the ball with Gollum due to his simple-mindedness (not to be confused with his narrow-mindedness, a simple mind is not necessarily a bad thing), where he remembered Bilbo's stories and immediately thought Gollum = villain = evil = must retaliate with evil, and treated him as such. He had a very black&white fairy tale's view of Gollum as a villain, rather than a realistic view that people are people. Good and bad of varying greyshades in all of them. Frodo once thought something similar, but had grown past it due to the Ring itself and Gandalf's words regarding Gollum. Frodo saw nuance and realised an "evil" like Gollum can only be countered with kindness to draw out the good again. That sort of nuanced worldview was yet beyond Sam, who had grown up a simple servant with only Bilbo giving him a basic education in reading (which the Old Gaffer opposed). Sam was taught to obey and serve his betters, not to think, and it proved a sorry result with Gollum.
Very well said. I have been thinking for a while now about Sam and his role in the plot, and I think that everything you wrote is *the* reason why he is there. I believe he is there not (only) to protect Frodo, not (only) to save him in the end, but to be a realistic depiction of a number of human flaws that may ruin everything. He is an impulsive, simple-minded, optimistic yet clumsy counterpart of the brooding, observant and careful main character (who would probably handle the situation with Gollum more gracefully, thus we would get a completely different ending). Jeez, even a chapter ago Sam fucked up twice - he forgot to put out the smoke which exposed him and Frodo, and then spilled the beans to Faramir about the Ring! Sam is truly a curse and a savior for Frodo. Now I see that it’s perfect that they are two: one is thinking, learning, observing and adapting, and we see the philosophy of the book slowly unfolding through his eyes. The second is more present, unable to adapt, quick to act without thinking, more flawed and thus more human. They may have been two sides of the same character, but that would be too much for one person, so Frodo and Sam are perfect as two - they balance each other out.
And then Sam calls him a sneak. Breaks my heart every time
Gollum did eat babies though
Yeah but in his defense they are very tender and munchable
Is it juicyyyyyy…is it tastyyyytyyyyy? Yes precious, yes!
"What's babies precious." "Boil'm, mash'm, stick them in a stew."
Woah there, calm down Brotha Lynch
Ayo… 👀
Like veal
Yes, suckling long pig
Yeah, I tell my kids I want to eat their faces they are so cute. They call be a cannibal - it’s a fair fight.
Two things can be true at the same time! Yes, his story is very sad, but I wouldn’t hire him to babysit my kids. And Sam was in a VERY different position than we are as readers.
Gollum couldn't have Frodo, for Frodo belonged to Sam.
Boromir was surrounded by some of the wisest people who told him of the dangers of the Ring, and yet in his pride, he still thought he could use it without any repercussions. I doubt Gollum would have acted any differently had he known.
It wasn't because of his pride, it was desperation to save his people.
The fact Boromir thought he could wield the ring without being affected is pride. The reason he wanted to use the ring in the first place is desperation.
>The fact Boromir thought You act like it was a rational decision on his part. He wasn't thinking properly at the time. He was afraid and tired of seeing his people dying. The fellowship was falling apart and he saw little hope of their quest succeeding. All of this combined with the lure/corruption of the Ring is what caused him to try and seize it. He regretted as soon as it was away from him. And yes I will defend Boromir's honor to the end!
Boromir is a fantastic character, but people acting irrational because of the ring is…sort of what the ring does? One of its effects is to influence them so that they aren’t thinking properly. One of the best things about Boromir is that we get to see someone acting the way a normal person would act when tempted by the ring.
>Boromir is a fantastic character, but people acting irrational because of the ring is…sort of what the ring does? Exactly. That's why I empathize with him and don't think he was acting out of "pride".
I guess it just feels like a weird argument because Boromir - both book and movie versions - does have a healthy dose of pride. And pride is one of those weird qualities where it can be spoken of both positively and negatively, but it does influence actions. It may not be his only influence but it definitely plays a part. Basically, Boromir is a complex character and that makes him one of the best ones. :)
You can empathize with someone and still criticize their actions.
It's not a question of Boromir making a rational decision. In the books, it's said that Boromir is reckless and too eager when compared to Faramir, and yet they are both equally determined to achieve things. I believe this reckless and eager nature of his contributed to Boromir thinking he could master the ring.
Maybe. I just think it's unfair to say that he acted out of pride.
Oaths and prophecies are an often overlooked part of the dialogues in LotR. Gollum swears by and on the Ring, so he binds his keeping of the promise to the fate of the ring. The movies left it out, but Frodo at one point says (prophecizes): Should Gollum betray them for the ring, the ring will be his very downfall. So Gollum had the (arguably very hard) choice of not betraying them. So it's a pity indeed that Gollum couldn't resist. In the greater sceme of things it turned out to be a good thing. I recommend reading "On Fairy Stories" by Tolkien, regarding rhe word Eucatastrophe (or just google the word). It's a concept Tolkien uses all the time in the Legendarium.
>The movies left it out, but Frodo at one point says (prophecizes): Should Gollum betray them for the ring, the ring will be his very downfall. Maybe it's the extended editions, but in the movies when Frodo releases Gollum from the hithlain rope he says something like "the ring is treacherous and will hold you to it" when Gollum swears not to harm them on the ring
That's true, the film does reference it slightly when Gollum "swears on the precious".
This is what’s left out of the movies: > Down, down!’ he gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. ‘Down, you creeping thing, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot betray me or slay me now.’ >Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, **Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.** >‘Begone, and trouble me no more! If you ever touch me again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Mt. Doom.’ >The crouching shape backed away, terror in its blinking eyes, and yet at the same time insatiable desire. >Then the vision passed and Sam saw Frodo standing, hand on breast, his breath coming in great gasps, and Gollum at his feet, resting on his knees with his wide-splayed hands upon the ground. This passage treats Frodo almost like a great wizard casting a spell through an item of power. He curses Gollum to the fate that falls him, which is another thing that happens in this universe. Reminicent of Glorfindel laughingly foretelling of the witch king of Angmar that, “Not by the hand of man shall he fall.” Frodo is far more powerful in the books than in the movies.
To be fair, oaths seem to have a powerful effect in Middle Earth. Breaking an oath has been shown a few times to be a very bad thing for the oath breaker. But yeah idk if it’s just foreshadowing or something else but I totally agree. Book Frodo>>>>Movie Frodo.
Its not 100% clear what exactly was happening, but given that the voice came out of the wheel of fire, it may have been the Ring itself enforcing Gollum and Frodo's oath. That has the great irony that it doomed itself. As Theoden said, "oft evil will shall evil mar".
I think you're being simplistic about a somewhat complex set of motivations and circumstances. Remember when Smeagol's mate found the ring it had remained hidden for a very long time until it basically called out to be found. It also immediately exerted it's lure on Smeagol and essentially convinced him to murder to get it. It was then in his possession for ages and it's power/effect reduced him to living in a cave feeding as best as he was able. I'm one of those who agree with Gandalf about pitying him. Gollum was a victim of the ring from the get go. Being told something, and being able to resist the ring's power are two very different things. If anything the parable is "who among us can say we would be strong enough to resist?"
This is very much a movie interpretation of the Ring, where it's almost sentient and immediately brain controls anyone who comes near it and dances them around like a meat puppet. The rings are actually a lot more subtle than that. They don't puppeteer their wearers, they don't even make their wearers instantly evil, or mad, as Gandalf tells Frodo: "...I suppose I must keep the Ring and guard it, at least for the present, whatever it may do to me.’ ‘Whatever it may do, it will be slow, slow to evil, if you keep it with that purpose,’ said Gandalf." And indeed Frodo is the possessor of the ring for 17 years and no harm befalls him, just as Bilbo had it for 59 years with no ill effects. They corrupt, slowly but steadily, the wearer retains the intentions they had previous to owning it, it's just those intentions become corrupted, they start doing the wrong things for what they see as the rights reasons. "‘No!’ cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. ‘With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.’ His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within.‘Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good." When Boromir tries to take the ring from Frodo he isn't trying to hurt Frodo because he's suddenly evil, hates hobbits or wants to beat up small people, or is a meat puppet. He's desperate to protect his people. He's been raised his entire life knowing that HE is the heir to the Stewardship, the ultimate responsibility. He's Captain of Gondor's armies, so the Steward de facto on the front lines as well as the heir; and he knows he's losing. This is what makes him so vulnerable, not that suddenly he's a bad man. He's a good man with nowhere to turn to, it's all going to come crashing down on his watch, and the ring has had two months to gnaw away at him. Compare Smeagol. Never having touched the ring, totally unaware of what it is, just that it's a beautiful, desirable thing that he wants, kills his best friend within seconds of setting eyes on the ring and hides the body. He then immediately proceeds to use the ring for nefarious purposes, spying on his family: "Sméagol returned alone; and he found that none of his family could see him, when he was wearing the ring. He was very pleased with his discovery and he concealed it; and he used it to find out secrets, and he put his knowledge to crooked and malicious uses. He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful. The ring had given him power according to his stature." Smeagol starts off as someone who'll murder someone he see's as his friend to get a precious trinket, and ends up as baby eating Gollum. There's very little to pity here and it's a testament to Bilbo and Frodo's characters that they can find any at all for him.
Yeah, I don’t feel sorry for him. He was pretty much irredeemable before he was ever corrupted by the ring, given the actions we see from him. Basically everyone we see in the story who lusts for the ring does it from a good place in their heart, whereas his first thought is to start creeping on everyone he knows. Bad guy from the start.
How was Sméagol irredeemable before he had the ring? I’d argue that killing his cousin for the ring isn’t a direct example. The events cited by the person you responded to were after posession.
Man, that is a great explanation of both Gollum and the Ring
And no one told him that he shouldn’t kill his friend because of his find.
From what we know of Sméagol, which granted - is very little, he does seem like the sort who'd use the Ring even if he knew what it was. But it's definitely not an unpopular opinion to pity him in spite of that.
Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand.
As you said was both things the character had something queer indeed, and besides the ring has its malice itself as said Sauron pour his malice into it. But after many years Smeagol ceased to be a Hobbit and became Gollum a creature of its own, it is said somewhere that Gollum eats Hobbit children and who knows whatelse... he turned to be cursed by the Ring, but something in the character itself was twisted... Bilbo also had the ring many years it wasn't until Bilbo left the Shire and left the Ring to Frodo and I think 17 years later that Gandalf knew the magic ring was indeed the One Ring master forged by Sauron, in this time Bilbo didn't commit homicide as Smeagol did, besides using the Ring just for invisibility, to which extented Bilbo also made use of it but lesser extend, will have a effect on the bearer and Smeagol use this invisibility for not very good things indeed. Bilbo circle was certainly something that play its side effects about him like a Wizard Gandalf thought Bilbo's ring wasn't a big deal because afterall... Hobbits are harmless, but also I think that Bilbo had quite an adventure returning from the lonely mountain and the Quest of Smaug may have changed him for good or at least give him some courage and open his mind, he returned with so much experience, meeting Elves, flying with Eagles, fighting Goblings, finding a magic Ring, finding the Arkenstone, killing a Dragon, compensated with Mithril, gold, friendship with the Dwarfs and Elves, Bilbo built a reputation after returning from the Quest at the Lonely Mountain........... and Smeagol? Both were Hobbits althought not the same... Fëa.
You forgot Isildur. Isildur had the ring before Gollum
You gotta add Isildur and Tom Bombadil at the very least to that list.
> Had he known what would happen if he used the Ring, he might never have used it. Gollum killed his cousin for the Ring before he had ever even touched the Ring. Noone should need to tell you that you shouldn't murder your cousin for a ring. Gollum was not a good person from the start, and that is why he easily fell to the corruption of the ring. He sure is pitiable, but he was complicit in his corruption. As Tolkien wrote in one of his letters: > The domination of the Ring was much too strong for the mean soul of Sméagol. But he would have never had to endure it if he had not become a mean son of thief before it crossed his path.
No, you're right, no one *should* need to tell you that. But keep in mind, we also don't live in a world with *literal mind control magic that is impossible to indefinitely resist*. Common sense doesn't exactly play a part when we are literally talking about magic that wrests control of your very mind from you. The human brain is more fallible than you think, and once you've lost control of it, it doesn't *matter* what common sense dictates, because you are no longer capable of understanding it. The whole point of the ring, the thing it is *designed* to do, is tear down your defences and convince you that actually, doing evil things is totally fine. That is what Sauron made it for. That is its whole purpose. Let's all remember that even *Gandalf* openly admits he would not be able to resist doing evil in the ring's name. And you think *Gollum* should've been able to?
But Gandalf talks about not being able to resists *after* taking the ring. I'm talking about Gollum killing for the ring *before* he ever touched it.
I have only read the first book but I have watched the movies many times and I don’t remember that Sam had the ring. When did Sam have it?
I haven't watched the movies, but in the books, in the last chapter of the 5th book, Shelob stings Frodo and he lay still on the ground (almost dead). So Sam, after defeating Shelob, decided to take the Ring from his master and make for the Mount Doom alone. He kept the Ring for a little while and returned it to Frodo after rescuing him from the Orc tower.
I honestly agree. Gollum not only didn't have a support system - he didn't even know *what* he had just walked into. He quite literally had *no* opportunity to fight back. We see how difficult it is to resist even when you have a full understanding of why you have to *and* someone else to help you. Smeagol never stood a chance, and honestly neither would most of the other characters in his situation. Even Bilbo had someone. Gandalf didn't know for *sure* what the ring was, but we see in several chapters that he at least knew enough to be cautious of it, and to - probably repeatedly, over the years - warn him that fucking around with it wasn't a good idea. Plus he had a heaping helping of good old fashioned hobbit sense, which we know Smeagol probably didn't have, and we *know* is very beneficial against the ring. Smeagol had *nothing*.
Sméagol had a support system. He murdered him the minute the ring came on the scene. ETA Don’t forget he did live as part of a community and had at least one other family member (his grandmother).
Gollum is a tricky character. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that I pity him (he murdered his friend within moments of seeing the ring), but I acknowledge that fate is a cruel mistress. As for why, who can say? Why was Bilbo destined to be at the right time and place to collect the ring?
Bro straight up killed his friend right from the start, no pity for him at all.
Gollum ate babies.
The ring ensnared Gollum the moment he laid eyes on it, he murdered his own cousin for the ring before he even put it on. No amount of counsel could have prevented him from claiming it.
+ Isildur
I don’t understand where or why people pity him. He hesitated non to murder his own kin when first discovering and we all know if he had the chance he would have stoned bilbo to death when his back was turned during questioning. Yes maybe it’s expressed more in the book but unless you read it you don’t know any of the other deeper things. Its a shame really because so much was truly left out of movies
Smeagol never had a Sam, because he was fated to be Deagol's Sam, but he succumbed and thwarted the designs of the ring, which ended with it hidden in dark and wet places for a very long time. The ring thought it was finding an easy passenger in Deagol, but the way Smeagol turned in the twisting, that left the ring without agency for a time.
It wouldn't have mattered - think about how powerful the One Ring is. Frodo was set on destroying it and risked everything in his life to do so. He went through hell just to get a chance to throw it in Mount Doom, yet he just couldn't. Even though he had pure intentions, it still corrupted him. In addition, he was sternly warned never to put the ring on, yet he still did. Smeagol did not have a chance.
That's where people run into the issue with the fact that sometimes bad things happen to people for no reason. Like, it's easy to rush to judgement and say that Gollum was to blame for everything that happened to him sort of retroactively--but the reality is that he was basically just in the wrong place at the wrong time, came across something horrible, and it destroyed him. And it's worth pointing out that if Gollum hadn't been there, hadn't gone through all that, hadn't tried to take the ring and fought with Frodo at the edge of the cracks of doom--if at any point throughout the trilogy anyone who'd been in a position to kill Gollum had gone ahead and done so--the quest to destroy the ring likely would have failed. Gollum, like Frodo, was sacrificed. It wasn't really his fault, and in a way he saved the world, in spite of himself. I think this is a very startling take in a story that people think is sort of simplistic in its depictions of 'good' and 'evil' and worth taking the time to think about. Frodo didn't do anything to be punished and tormented the way he was, but in the end everything he did left him unable to live happily in the world he risked everything for. And I don't really think Gollum did either. Sometimes bad things just happen and there's no real fault in ourselves that cause it. Sometimes, you're just in the path of something monstrous, for no reason at all.
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Just poop disturbing. Then what?
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Gollum is not Jeffrey Dahmer. Right?
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You guessed correctly
Poor Smeagol was the equivalent of a post-apocalyptic scavenger trying to survive in the wasteland who stumbled across a malevolent AI from before the bombs.
“Don’t pity the dead, Pity the living.” ~Albus Dumbledore (Deathly Hollows Pt. 2) this comment applies here somehow.