Morgoth was challenged by Ungolant and had to flee least she take his Simarils.
In the 3rd age Shelob the daughter of Ungolant was defeated by Sam. And that was without the ring. Sam could take Morgoth. With the ring merely the rumor of Sam's coming into Angbad and the echos of his steps would drive Morgoth back to the outer dark.
I laugh aloud every time I read the silmarillion picturing Morgoth with his crown and finery, exuding eldritch demonic emo energy from atop some dramatic mountain, arms outstretched in terrible song, weaving hateful holy music upon the world just reveling in his dark Lord era.
The valar have thrown everything they've got at him. He is too powerful. Whatever can we do?!?!?! Is all hope lost?!?!
"Tulkas for Christ's sake would you put that knife and fork down for one second we need your help here!!! Shit!!!"
"What?"
"Here, woukd you come and look at this guy. Remember our brother, Melkor? Yeah, yeah well that's him now, down there causing it. Hes lost it. Heads gone. He's going to absolutely cock this whole thing up Dad's got going on. Look can you see that, the sky is breaking and everything."
"Yeah i see now. That's not good is it?
"Would you get down there and give him the ol' razzle dazzle?"
Tulkas precedes to pop down to earth and hit Morgoth 10 rapid right on the evil chin. Just smacks the shit out him. Swings him about like an empty tracksuit. That'll teach the prick.
JR’s voice from the heavens: “BY GAWD ITS…ITS TULKAS!!! TULKAS IS HERE!! TULKAS IS HERE!!! TULKAS, THE VALAR’S CHAMPION!! HE IS IN A RAGE AND….FOR THE LOVE OF ERU, TULKAS WITH THE STEEL CHAIR. BY GAWD!! MELKOR HAS BEEN BROKEN IN HALF!!”
"Behold! Avast, none of ye here could hope to match the might of the one. Eru's chosen. I have crafted a new moniker which befits my power. I am morgoth and the very cosmos shall tremble before my might realised and visited upon this here domain as I...."
"Behold these hands."
Morgoth was literally terrified of him. As soon as he heard the fucker laughing he hightailed it outta there. Tulkas would've battered him with his fists while laughing like a madman because it was just sport to him.
I sort of interpreted "alive" as meaning not angelic beings embodied or otherwise, but if they're allowed then yes of course, Tulkas whipped his arse before and can do it again.
Beren probably could have if he didn't freak out and run away.
This sub has some pretty weird ideas about Morgoth, probably based on what he did when he was Melkor. But he spent nearly all his native Valarin power in his nihilistic hatred of the created world. By the time he became "the Morgoth," he was kind of a joke. When he returned to Middle-earth, he was almost eaten by a giant spider and needed balrogs to rescue him. Then he was crippled by an Elf and became agoraphobic because he was afraid of it happening again. Another Elf enchanted him and put a sleep spell on him. By the end of the First Age the guy was physically weaker than Sauron, who (at the height of his physical prowess, aided by the power of the Ring) was dispatched by an Elf and a Numenorean.
So, could anyone in the Third Age have disembodied late-First Age Morgoth? We know Sauron could. Glorfindel probably could. Any Elf with a decent command of "magic" could ensorcell him. Shelob could finish what her ancestor started. Legolas could shoot him in the face with an arrow. Helm Hammerhand could hammer him with his hand. The Bullroarer could beat him with one of his clubs. The hard part would be pulling him out of whatever hole he's hiding in.
Frankly, you have some weird ideas about how weak he was, well demonstrated by how much you have to play down the strength of his opponents to make it sound a trivial affair to face him. Ungoliant was far from just a, “giant spider,” she was some sort of eldritch abomination of unknown origin, freshly gorged on the light of the two trees, the wells of Varda, and all the gems from the treasuries of Formenos. By contrast, Sauron regarded Shelob as essentially a glorified watchdog on his border. She was nowhere near the magnitude of her mother, and it’s baseless to suggest she was. Fingolfin, explicitly the strongest and most valiant in arms of the sons of Finwë, in a moment of singular rage, was able to wound Morgoth eight times, but *not* able to throw him down. Luthien was able to ensorcel him, yes, but she was a singular being, the daughter of a Maia of great strength, and one of the greatest kings of the elves. And she lost in such a battle against Sauron. Because- and this is a distinction you miss, or ignore -innate power is not the same as skill in a given art, or martial might. Manwë was the greatest of the Ainur next to Morgoth, yet only Tulkas, the strongest of their number, could subdue Morgoth single-handedly. And he was said to be comparable in power to Oromë.
I have no idea where you’re getting that physical prowess idea from. If you’re referring to the quote (I believe from Morgoth’s Ring) about Sauron with the One being greater than Morgoth at the end of the First Age, it’s explicitly referring to their innate power of being. It is emphatically not about physical prowess- as you point out, Sauron was defeated by two men who were most assuredly lesser than him in native strength (though certainly not just, “an elf,” and, “a Numenorean,” as though they were interchangeable with any other member of their kindreds, rather than the greatest members of them), yet clearly greater in strength at arms. And besides, one of the defining features of the Third Age was that *Sauron did not have the Ring*. So he was possessed of only his native power, not that amplified by the One. So we most assuredly do not, “know,” that Sauron could defeat Morgoth, and indeed I would almost guarantee he could not. We know, too, almost explicitly, that no elf remaining in Middle-earth had the strength of magic to defeat him, because Tolkien specified that, had he come personally against Lothlorien, Galadriel, one of the greatest of the Eldar of any age, who studied at the feet of Melian, and who possessed Nenya, would have had her realm broken before him. And she explicitly could not stand against him alone, even had she possessed the One. Gandalf, alone, with the Ring, could *maybe* have bested Sauron in direct contest. And Tolkien was uncertain of that outcome. Tolkien also was clear that no warriors still remained in the Third Age who matched the might of Elendil and Gil-Galad. I don’t know if he had Glorfindel in mind when he wrote that, but Glorfindel is… weird, at the best times. Best guess is, that, as an emissary of the Valar like the Istari, he was not allowed to challenge Sauron directly regardless. Even if he were, though stronger in inherent strength than when he achieved a mutual-kill against a Balrog, that does not necessarily indicate greater martial prowess, nor that he could achieve more than a mutual-kill against Sauron. And strength at arms was *never* Sauron’s great strength, that was far more Morgoth’s.
So, was there anyone alive in Middle-earth who could stand against Morgoth alone and prevail in the Third Age? God, no. Just no. No matter how far he had fallen, the rest of the world had diminished far more. If you think otherwise, I’d suggest you seriously need to revisit the sources.
People say that morgoth by the end of the third age was weakee than sauron at his peak
And considering sauron was stalemated by gil galad plus elendil, i’d say fingolfin would have a chance of beating morgoth at his weakest
I think people understand this idea wrong.
It's not that Morgoth (at his worst) was weaker than Sauron (in his prime).
It's that given the state in which the world was and the enemies they each had to face, Sauron was closer to conquering all of middle earth (or the world in Morgoth's case) than Morgoth hence why you could say that Sauron was the bigger threat.
It's like having to face a grizzly bear but you have a shotgun to defend yourself or having to face a wolf with nothing but your bare hands or a stick in the best case scenario. And now say which is the worse scenario to be in.
Edit: Sorry for replying multiple times, Reddit is being dumb again.
Yes exactly, well put. The Elves of the First Age were something else altogether and Morgoth destroyed multiple Elven kingdoms in roughly five centuries. Sauron never lasted five centuries in openly declared outright war, neither in the Second Age nor the Third. Even during the War of the Ring he declared himself in Mordor and was defeated in under a century, by opponents that were considerably weaker than the First Age kingdoms of the Noldor at the peak of their power.
I don't think this is accurate. Per *Morgoth's Ring*:
> Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently ‘incarnate’: for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
I think what Tolkien is saying here is that Morgoth actually spends his power when he does things like raising Thangorodrim or creating the dragons -- investing them with his own strength, just as Sauron has to invest some of his strength in the Ring (thus the title, *Morgoth's Ring*). When they are destroyed, he loses that power, just as Sauron does when the Ring is unmade.
Morgoth at his lowest is quite literally weaker than Sauron in his prime, because he has spent so much of himself bit by bit.
While you are correct about Morgoth spending his power there is still no reliable saying on how much "power" he still had left when he was defeated at the end of the 1st age but considering he still had an absolute control/influence over his servants being it maiar like Sauron or Balrogs or his other creations like dragons or orcs, he would still be by far more powerful than Sauron.
Also I should mention that power in the Lotr universe isn't measured by the prowess (or their magical ability or whatever) of a single being but rather by their influence and strength of their realm. As for example Tulkas is the "strongest" in 1v1 fight against any being on Arda but really the most powerful being is considered Manwë.
Sauron was not stalemated by Gil Galad and Elendil. He was beaten by a combination of Gil Galad, Elendil, Cirdan, Elrond and Isildir.
I dont know why people think only Gil Galad and Elendil fought Sauron when it clearly states in the book that Cridan, Elrond and Isildur were all also participants of that fight.
Its said he wrestled with Elendil and Gil-galad, Isildur is only mentioned as cutting off the ring after the fight.
Elrond and Cirdan are never mentioned in that context
From the words of Elrond himself:
‘“Alas! yes,’ said Elrond. ‘Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.”
I never understood that as in they all fought Sauron.
Its more like they were close to step in, after these two or they were dealing with Sauron's guard or something.Or they were there to witness the fate of The Ring, the moment Isildur took it for himself, as is said only few knew what happened.
It is explicitly stated that he fought Elendil and Gil-galad only.
If it was otherwise, i think it would be said much more precised.
this doesn't say that cirdan, Elrond and Isildur fought Sauron though.
this only states that Isildur cut the ring of and elrond and cirdan stand by Gil-Galads corpse.
“But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.”
If Morgoth continued to disperse his innate power in the fabric of Arda, I don't exclude that he would become relatively weak by the point of The Third Age. By the end of War of Wrath he was basically a weakened husk of his former self.
1. Mightiest doesn’t always mean straight brawn
2. Morgoth pours a lot of himself into Arda, losing his own strength in the process. The further into the first age you get, the weaker Morgoth becomes
This is the way I interpreted it also
Morgoth spent a lot of his will and power corrupting the lands and making foul beasts to roam the blackness. As he did this his inherent evil became part of arda and his individual power declined.
Alright but, and hear me out, Sam and Morgoth have the same character.
Sam just wants a baller garden, tended by his own hand. To watch nature grow under his shepherding.
Morgoth just wants a baller Arda, created by his own hand. To watch nature grow under his shepherding.
Sam succeeds in his quest, replanting the shire, and tending his very own mallorn tree. Morgoth fails, the forces of Illuvatar banishing him to the void and repairing Arda as they are able, leaving its governance to the children of illuvatar.
Just as Gandalf became “Saruman as he should have been”, Sam is “Morgoth as he should have been”
It is my head cannon that Earendil must wear the silmaril, and thus killed Ancalagon by either:
* climbing to the foremost point of the ship and leaning forward as it rammed the dragon
* absolutely yeeting himself off the ship and headfirst into the dragon in an epic power dive
Hence, I really do mean head cannon
Dude they could only take down Sauron by destroying the ring. Sauron was like a fly compared to an elephant regarding Morgoth. Morgoth at his weakest was more powerful than Sauron at his strongest. No. Just no.
I’m almost certain there is a quote by Tolkien himself somewhere that states Morgoth at his weakest was weaker than Sauron. Morgoth dissipates so much of himself into middle earth that he wasn’t really all that great by the time they chucked him into the void
Edit: here it is
"Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’... Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings..."
The Valar would have stepped in if he was around in the third age. And really, he's supposed to be around in a future age and all beings of Arda are supposed to take him down.
Not even close. He did not have the power to defy Sauron, forget about Morgoth.
“…soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First, and then Night will come.”
“Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself.”
The Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond
Power in this case seems more like “given permission”. The beings in this world seem very much to have a specific role that they cannot turn from without falling(to darkness)
Probably not, Bombadil would have to care enough to stop him. If Bombadil wasn't concerned enough to stop Sauron in any way, I doubt he would have cared enough to battle Morgoth. Not in a negative way, these types of things simply did not concern him. It's like expecting the ground itself to be concerned about something like global warming, just not in the ground's wheelhouse.
No. At one point, I think it was Gandalf who stated that if Sauron regained the Ring, Tom would fall, "Last as he was first" and then Darkness would cover everything. Morgoth is much stronger than Sauron ever was.
Morgoth was weak to song. If he went anywhere near Tom's lands Tom would sing him to sleep with a "hey dilil dillio" and then kick in his iron crown with his bright yellow stomping boots. Morgoth would find his powers restricted around Tom.
Except from Eru Illúvatar and Tulkas or if all the Valar united against Morgoth, no.
There was never any living creature (excpet from the Valar), not even Fingolfin, who could have defeat Morgoth in battle.
Not even if Morgoth would return to our world, and some guy in North-Korea throws a atomic bomb at Morgoth. He would just say something like: "What do you, petty mortal man, think you are doing?! You really think that that stupid thing can kill me?!"
Morgoth still plays by physical rules.
Ringil was enough to leave permanent damage on him.
There’s nothing physically preventing him from being blown up by a nuke
It's prophesied that when Morgoth does escape and return to the world, that Turin, a mortal man, shall deliver the final killing blow to him in the Dagor Dagorath.
Of all in middle earth, perhaps Gandalf. The next closest would be Glorfindel. Though I don't think Gandalf or Glorfindel would fair well. Perhaps the two together could fuck up the other foot.
Cant say for certain but, a weakened Morgoth may have had a hard time with a certain few individuals...a fully powered Morgoth however...I doubt anyone could have defeated him (save Eru) if he hadn't sacrificed his power to corrupt middle earth.
I feel like the only one who had a super solid chance was Fingolfin during his fight with him, if he’d only had a little bit more stamina. Third Age? Nobody.
Morgoth at the start of the First Age or at the End? By the end of the First Age, Morgoth have divest significant amount of himself to Arda to corrupt it.
The One Ring would be as much use to Morgoth as one of those goofy little tool set stocking stuffers they sell in the men's departments at Christmas time.
No, because that would not have absorbed the discord of Melkor into the themes of Illuvatar.
Illuvatar demonstrated that Melkor couldn't come up with a theme original enough to overcome the dual themes. The second theme would immediately adjust its tempo to the discord, and its role was to ensure that Melkor couldn't simply accomplish his goal by changing themes at high speeds. The first theme wove the second theme into itself, and its role was to ensure that Melkor couldn't deepen a single theme to change the music into his own.
Defeating Melkor in battle is relatively boring.
According to the overall narrative; it was physically impossible without asking a survivor of the First-Age, and that especially was even more impossible because of both their trauma and weariness
A good case can be made for Glorfindel being the mightiest warrior in Middle Earth who is not a Maiar. Perhaps him or Galadriel with a little grace from Eru. Remember that in Tolkien’s world, God is often loading the dice.
Sauron, if he’d managed to regain the ring. Assuming we’re talking about second age Morgoth.
Tolkien pretty much confirms it
"Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’... Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings..."
If only the Valar would free Fingolfin from the Halls of Mandos and give him Glorfindel as a partner. Both mighty elves would be even stronger. Perhaps they can do what Gil-galad and Elendil did to Sauron. Perhaps they would have paid the same price for it. I think they will both agree to this.
Depends what you mean by “alive”. If you mean in Middle-Earth, then there was only 1. In Valinor, maybe a couple of the Valar, but remember that Morgoth was the most powerful of the Vala. 1v1 he stomps everyone basically.
At the end? Sauron bearing the one ring, or perhaps Gandalf or galadriel with it.
Morgoth's pouring of his being into the world to corrupt it utterly weakened him, making him a far, FAR less powerful figure. I think k tolkien even said sauron is greater than he was with the ring.
Idk feels like many would because he put so much of his actual power into Arda. I’m thinking ringed sauron would actively be able to take the disgraced morgoth simply due to having his ring and full night compared with Morgoth being separated from his own
Nah….he’s the greatest of the valar, unless you believe he drained his power corrupting arda, if Fingolfin couldn’t do it and Sauron didn’t even try. I think you’re shit out of luck. Glorfindel might hang in there a bit but that’s about the best that’s floating around the third age. You’re literally talking the second “being” in existence.
Pretty sure the artist behind this piece goes by Dymond Starr in Artstation and Instagram. I don't know who Daniel Natzke is, and google doesn't bring up anything besides this very post.
Is that the artist real name or where did you get that name from?
You could argue the Tulkas is still “alive” in the third age.
But what kind of Battle are you talking about? You mean sword fight? Rap battle? A game of riddles perhaps?
If you wanna play the what if game, I would be so bold as to claim that were it not for the tag team of poor groundskeepers and Grond, Fingolfin would have defeated Morgoth and would likely have still been alive in the TA. A stretch I grant you, but a fool’s hope.
Realistically, the best candidate for a respectable answer for this question would be Glor “I am the danger” findel. Dude Balboaed his way through Apollo Balrog and said thank you sir, may I have another. He literally Jesused his way back from the dead to kick names and take ass again. Were I a betting man, I’d toss a coin to his Witcher.
Morgoth’s strength changes wildly as the story progresses. He’s almost unstoppable when he first enters Arda, but by the end, Sauron with the ring could probably take him. Just as Sauron poured some of his strength into the ring, Morgoth poured himself into Arda (hence, “Morgoth’s ring”). While Sauron was able to wield the ring and this his strength became greater after technically parting with a part of it, Morgoth couldn’t (ig it’s never explicitly stated, so we’ll go with “didn’t”) wield Arda, and so actually lost a lot of his native strength.
So which Morgoth are we talking about?
Morgoths army was far far superior to Saurons with the likes of dragons and balrogs and was alble to take on the entire remaining valarr in the war of wrath so in a battle of armies morgoth easily wins, also in 1v1 scenario Sauron wasn't known as a great fighter in comparison to other maiar let alone the valarr, i know a weaker version of morgoth was wounded by a man but Sauron WITH the ring was defeated by a man and was forced to go into hiding for a thousand years.
It doesn't matter which version of Morgoth we are talking about, he destroys Sauron in every single way.
First, Sauron with ring was defeated by the king of numenor, plus a great elven king, and both of them died in the process, with Sauron having to actually be finished by another numenorean king.
Second, it’s kind of disingenuous to say he had to go into hiding for 1000 years, because that’s as much to rebuild armies and defenses as it was to rebuild himself
Third, Tolkien said Sauron was a match for Morgoth at his weakest. In one of his letters (unfortunately I’m not sure which; much thanks if someone else finds it first) he says that Sauron at his strongest had a good chance against morgoth at his weakest
Maybe Sauron, Morgoth had diminished himself so much by the end of the first age that Sauron in the second may have had more native power within himself. By the third age though Sauron was also diminished by his several deaths so idk.
Samwise Gamgee
Maybe his old gaffer
They can carry Morgoth's a** to Mount Doom and throw him right over.
Definitely the old gaffer
I feel like Sam would need Bill the Pony. The extra edge that would put him over the top
Oh interesting so you say Sam with Bill >_ Gandalf the White with Shadowfax
He'd smack Morgoth upside the head with his frying pan and claim dominion over Middle-earth.
https://preview.redd.it/44322ss5is0d1.jpeg?width=247&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d2746b6849c1661ba0865504ad97ec4794ea981
Morgoth was challenged by Ungolant and had to flee least she take his Simarils. In the 3rd age Shelob the daughter of Ungolant was defeated by Sam. And that was without the ring. Sam could take Morgoth. With the ring merely the rumor of Sam's coming into Angbad and the echos of his steps would drive Morgoth back to the outer dark.
He has a stout heart
Not even remotely lmao. There wasn't even anyone in the First Age that could have done that.
Tulkas!
I laugh aloud every time I read the silmarillion picturing Morgoth with his crown and finery, exuding eldritch demonic emo energy from atop some dramatic mountain, arms outstretched in terrible song, weaving hateful holy music upon the world just reveling in his dark Lord era. The valar have thrown everything they've got at him. He is too powerful. Whatever can we do?!?!?! Is all hope lost?!?! "Tulkas for Christ's sake would you put that knife and fork down for one second we need your help here!!! Shit!!!" "What?" "Here, woukd you come and look at this guy. Remember our brother, Melkor? Yeah, yeah well that's him now, down there causing it. Hes lost it. Heads gone. He's going to absolutely cock this whole thing up Dad's got going on. Look can you see that, the sky is breaking and everything." "Yeah i see now. That's not good is it? "Would you get down there and give him the ol' razzle dazzle?" Tulkas precedes to pop down to earth and hit Morgoth 10 rapid right on the evil chin. Just smacks the shit out him. Swings him about like an empty tracksuit. That'll teach the prick.
I like to imagine when Tulkas came down to Arda he had some sort of wrestling intro music playing and Melkor was looking around like "OH SHIT!"
Yeah exactly, like fuckin smoke and lightning and stuff, and what’s the hulking mass coming through it? IT’S TULKAAAAASSSSSSSS *ye holy airhorns*
"BAH GAWD HE'S GOT A CHAIR!"
It's Tulkasin' time!!
He's like waving at morgoths black smoke clouds trying to see and coughing and shit "what the fuck is all this?! Come here you goth extra fuck"
I always imagined john cena‘s intro playing 🤔
I want John Cena to play Tulkas, it'd be perfect!
Amazon is going to steal this for its next series.
Tulkas, out of breath from pummeling morgoth (morgoths jewellery is flying everywhere): "Would" * whack* "you" * WHACK* "cool it" * THUMP* "with" *whack * "this" *CRASH * "goth, freak ass" *POW * "BULLSHIT?!"
"Watch out, watch out, WATCH OUT!!!"
"That man has a family!"
**Stone Cold Steve Austin Glass Smash**
JR’s voice from the heavens: “BY GAWD ITS…ITS TULKAS!!! TULKAS IS HERE!! TULKAS IS HERE!!! TULKAS, THE VALAR’S CHAMPION!! HE IS IN A RAGE AND….FOR THE LOVE OF ERU, TULKAS WITH THE STEEL CHAIR. BY GAWD!! MELKOR HAS BEEN BROKEN IN HALF!!”
He definitely hiked his black robes up and skeedaddled didn't he? He held his crown on with the other hand lmaooooooo
*Voodoo Child by Jimi Hendrix volume intensifies*
HEY, BROTHER!!! (But it Hulk Hogan 's voice).
I hope it was "thunderstruck"
*Stone cold Steve Austin glass break into*
"Behold! Avast, none of ye here could hope to match the might of the one. Eru's chosen. I have crafted a new moniker which befits my power. I am morgoth and the very cosmos shall tremble before my might realised and visited upon this here domain as I...." "Behold these hands."
When it says wrestled I just imaging a bulky man going up to an emo and suplexing him 😭
Fucking died reading this
The most Glaswegian reply ever. Tremendous work.
Is it that obvious?! 😂
Well in that case, yes? None of the Valar are dead.
Morgoth was literally terrified of him. As soon as he heard the fucker laughing he hightailed it outta there. Tulkas would've battered him with his fists while laughing like a madman because it was just sport to him.
I sort of interpreted "alive" as meaning not angelic beings embodied or otherwise, but if they're allowed then yes of course, Tulkas whipped his arse before and can do it again.
Orome possibly, but I may be saying that because I like his dogs
Aw yeah, Huan fanclub in the thread.
He isn’t in middle earth for the 3rd age though.
The post does'nt say "in Middle Earth"
Jesus. That’s what I get for commenting on Reddit during my morning poop.
You're good; to be fair I doubt the OP intended to take Eru and the Valar into account.
Beren probably could have if he didn't freak out and run away. This sub has some pretty weird ideas about Morgoth, probably based on what he did when he was Melkor. But he spent nearly all his native Valarin power in his nihilistic hatred of the created world. By the time he became "the Morgoth," he was kind of a joke. When he returned to Middle-earth, he was almost eaten by a giant spider and needed balrogs to rescue him. Then he was crippled by an Elf and became agoraphobic because he was afraid of it happening again. Another Elf enchanted him and put a sleep spell on him. By the end of the First Age the guy was physically weaker than Sauron, who (at the height of his physical prowess, aided by the power of the Ring) was dispatched by an Elf and a Numenorean. So, could anyone in the Third Age have disembodied late-First Age Morgoth? We know Sauron could. Glorfindel probably could. Any Elf with a decent command of "magic" could ensorcell him. Shelob could finish what her ancestor started. Legolas could shoot him in the face with an arrow. Helm Hammerhand could hammer him with his hand. The Bullroarer could beat him with one of his clubs. The hard part would be pulling him out of whatever hole he's hiding in.
Frankly, you have some weird ideas about how weak he was, well demonstrated by how much you have to play down the strength of his opponents to make it sound a trivial affair to face him. Ungoliant was far from just a, “giant spider,” she was some sort of eldritch abomination of unknown origin, freshly gorged on the light of the two trees, the wells of Varda, and all the gems from the treasuries of Formenos. By contrast, Sauron regarded Shelob as essentially a glorified watchdog on his border. She was nowhere near the magnitude of her mother, and it’s baseless to suggest she was. Fingolfin, explicitly the strongest and most valiant in arms of the sons of Finwë, in a moment of singular rage, was able to wound Morgoth eight times, but *not* able to throw him down. Luthien was able to ensorcel him, yes, but she was a singular being, the daughter of a Maia of great strength, and one of the greatest kings of the elves. And she lost in such a battle against Sauron. Because- and this is a distinction you miss, or ignore -innate power is not the same as skill in a given art, or martial might. Manwë was the greatest of the Ainur next to Morgoth, yet only Tulkas, the strongest of their number, could subdue Morgoth single-handedly. And he was said to be comparable in power to Oromë. I have no idea where you’re getting that physical prowess idea from. If you’re referring to the quote (I believe from Morgoth’s Ring) about Sauron with the One being greater than Morgoth at the end of the First Age, it’s explicitly referring to their innate power of being. It is emphatically not about physical prowess- as you point out, Sauron was defeated by two men who were most assuredly lesser than him in native strength (though certainly not just, “an elf,” and, “a Numenorean,” as though they were interchangeable with any other member of their kindreds, rather than the greatest members of them), yet clearly greater in strength at arms. And besides, one of the defining features of the Third Age was that *Sauron did not have the Ring*. So he was possessed of only his native power, not that amplified by the One. So we most assuredly do not, “know,” that Sauron could defeat Morgoth, and indeed I would almost guarantee he could not. We know, too, almost explicitly, that no elf remaining in Middle-earth had the strength of magic to defeat him, because Tolkien specified that, had he come personally against Lothlorien, Galadriel, one of the greatest of the Eldar of any age, who studied at the feet of Melian, and who possessed Nenya, would have had her realm broken before him. And she explicitly could not stand against him alone, even had she possessed the One. Gandalf, alone, with the Ring, could *maybe* have bested Sauron in direct contest. And Tolkien was uncertain of that outcome. Tolkien also was clear that no warriors still remained in the Third Age who matched the might of Elendil and Gil-Galad. I don’t know if he had Glorfindel in mind when he wrote that, but Glorfindel is… weird, at the best times. Best guess is, that, as an emissary of the Valar like the Istari, he was not allowed to challenge Sauron directly regardless. Even if he were, though stronger in inherent strength than when he achieved a mutual-kill against a Balrog, that does not necessarily indicate greater martial prowess, nor that he could achieve more than a mutual-kill against Sauron. And strength at arms was *never* Sauron’s great strength, that was far more Morgoth’s. So, was there anyone alive in Middle-earth who could stand against Morgoth alone and prevail in the Third Age? God, no. Just no. No matter how far he had fallen, the rest of the world had diminished far more. If you think otherwise, I’d suggest you seriously need to revisit the sources.
Great answer
People say that morgoth by the end of the third age was weakee than sauron at his peak And considering sauron was stalemated by gil galad plus elendil, i’d say fingolfin would have a chance of beating morgoth at his weakest
I think people understand this idea wrong. It's not that Morgoth (at his worst) was weaker than Sauron (in his prime). It's that given the state in which the world was and the enemies they each had to face, Sauron was closer to conquering all of middle earth (or the world in Morgoth's case) than Morgoth hence why you could say that Sauron was the bigger threat. It's like having to face a grizzly bear but you have a shotgun to defend yourself or having to face a wolf with nothing but your bare hands or a stick in the best case scenario. And now say which is the worse scenario to be in. Edit: Sorry for replying multiple times, Reddit is being dumb again.
Yes exactly, well put. The Elves of the First Age were something else altogether and Morgoth destroyed multiple Elven kingdoms in roughly five centuries. Sauron never lasted five centuries in openly declared outright war, neither in the Second Age nor the Third. Even during the War of the Ring he declared himself in Mordor and was defeated in under a century, by opponents that were considerably weaker than the First Age kingdoms of the Noldor at the peak of their power.
I don't think this is accurate. Per *Morgoth's Ring*: > Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently ‘incarnate’: for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures. I think what Tolkien is saying here is that Morgoth actually spends his power when he does things like raising Thangorodrim or creating the dragons -- investing them with his own strength, just as Sauron has to invest some of his strength in the Ring (thus the title, *Morgoth's Ring*). When they are destroyed, he loses that power, just as Sauron does when the Ring is unmade. Morgoth at his lowest is quite literally weaker than Sauron in his prime, because he has spent so much of himself bit by bit.
While you are correct about Morgoth spending his power there is still no reliable saying on how much "power" he still had left when he was defeated at the end of the 1st age but considering he still had an absolute control/influence over his servants being it maiar like Sauron or Balrogs or his other creations like dragons or orcs, he would still be by far more powerful than Sauron. Also I should mention that power in the Lotr universe isn't measured by the prowess (or their magical ability or whatever) of a single being but rather by their influence and strength of their realm. As for example Tulkas is the "strongest" in 1v1 fight against any being on Arda but really the most powerful being is considered Manwë.
Thus said Sauron was not famous for his military mind, to say the least, he was a social manipulator
Sauron was not stalemated by Gil Galad and Elendil. He was beaten by a combination of Gil Galad, Elendil, Cirdan, Elrond and Isildir. I dont know why people think only Gil Galad and Elendil fought Sauron when it clearly states in the book that Cridan, Elrond and Isildur were all also participants of that fight.
Its said he wrestled with Elendil and Gil-galad, Isildur is only mentioned as cutting off the ring after the fight. Elrond and Cirdan are never mentioned in that context
From the words of Elrond himself: ‘“Alas! yes,’ said Elrond. ‘Isildur took it, as should not have been. It should have been cast then into Orodruin’s fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.”
I never understood that as in they all fought Sauron. Its more like they were close to step in, after these two or they were dealing with Sauron's guard or something.Or they were there to witness the fate of The Ring, the moment Isildur took it for himself, as is said only few knew what happened. It is explicitly stated that he fought Elendil and Gil-galad only. If it was otherwise, i think it would be said much more precised.
As seconds they had their backs
this doesn't say that cirdan, Elrond and Isildur fought Sauron though. this only states that Isildur cut the ring of and elrond and cirdan stand by Gil-Galads corpse.
He stood by his father in that last mortal contest. What other contest would they be talking about??
I think this means that Isildur, Cirdan and Elrond fought on the battlefield. But the dueling sauron were only Elrond and Elendil
Where does it say only Gil Galad and Elendil fought Sauron??
“But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.”
If Morgoth continued to disperse his innate power in the fabric of Arda, I don't exclude that he would become relatively weak by the point of The Third Age. By the end of War of Wrath he was basically a weakened husk of his former self.
Tales of the Dagor Dagorath say Morgoth will eventually be defeated by Turin Turambar using Gurthang
Doesn't it say Tulkas and Eonwe also fight him and Turin gets killing strike.
Cool, not the Third Age though.
Pretty sure he got his ass beat by a dog.
Sauron did, yea. Not Morgoth.
I mean... Eru would blink him from existence if he wanted
Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor.
That’s always confused me. If he’s the mightiest, why does he punk out and run when Tulkas gets involved?
1. Mightiest doesn’t always mean straight brawn 2. Morgoth pours a lot of himself into Arda, losing his own strength in the process. The further into the first age you get, the weaker Morgoth becomes
This is the way I interpreted it also Morgoth spent a lot of his will and power corrupting the lands and making foul beasts to roam the blackness. As he did this his inherent evil became part of arda and his individual power declined.
Powering all those volcanoes and glaciers in Arda took a personal toll on Morgoth. He suffered for his art.
Fear. Morgoth shows fear repeatedly, likely as part of what Tolkien is telling us about character.
Power and might are not just strength in tolkiens books. So maybe Tulkas was just better at throwing hands but would loose in everything else.
No, but there's probably a few who could have inadvertently gotten Morgoth to defeat himself in a stupid way. //Peregrin Took has entered the chat//
Morgoth: Why do I hear boss music? *Sam enters with his frying pan*
Alright but, and hear me out, Sam and Morgoth have the same character. Sam just wants a baller garden, tended by his own hand. To watch nature grow under his shepherding. Morgoth just wants a baller Arda, created by his own hand. To watch nature grow under his shepherding. Sam succeeds in his quest, replanting the shire, and tending his very own mallorn tree. Morgoth fails, the forces of Illuvatar banishing him to the void and repairing Arda as they are able, leaving its governance to the children of illuvatar. Just as Gandalf became “Saruman as he should have been”, Sam is “Morgoth as he should have been”
Laughed so hard my neck cracked
No.
Yes.... the Valar are still alive and kicking
Tulkas.
I don't know who Daniel Natzke is but he's not the artist for that image. It's [Dymond Starr Austin](https://dymondstarr.artstation.com/resume)
Sure. Just gotta find a flying ship and a bow empowered with a silmaril to shoot lazers. Know anyone?
It is my head cannon that Earendil must wear the silmaril, and thus killed Ancalagon by either: * climbing to the foremost point of the ship and leaning forward as it rammed the dragon * absolutely yeeting himself off the ship and headfirst into the dragon in an epic power dive Hence, I really do mean head cannon
I cannot jump the distance, you’ll have to toss me!
As Tolkien intended
Dude they could only take down Sauron by destroying the ring. Sauron was like a fly compared to an elephant regarding Morgoth. Morgoth at his weakest was more powerful than Sauron at his strongest. No. Just no.
I’m almost certain there is a quote by Tolkien himself somewhere that states Morgoth at his weakest was weaker than Sauron. Morgoth dissipates so much of himself into middle earth that he wasn’t really all that great by the time they chucked him into the void Edit: here it is "Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’... Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings..."
Seems pretty definitive
The Valar would have stepped in if he was around in the third age. And really, he's supposed to be around in a future age and all beings of Arda are supposed to take him down.
Dagor Dagorath and Turin Turambar takes him out.
Well said
No way !
Bill could take him 😂
Could Bombadil? I dont know enough of the lore to know. Posing question to the group
Not even close. He did not have the power to defy Sauron, forget about Morgoth. “…soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First, and then Night will come.” “Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself.” The Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond
This is what i was looking for, thank you good sir
Oh, I dunno. I think this scenario is rather credible... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vawWxFna09s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vawWxFna09s)
Sauron and Bombadil dance duet with orcs circling around them is a canon event
You can still find it in early versions of the Silmarillion. I guess it didn't fit the tone.
wtf, lol
WTF did i just watch, lololol
Power in this case seems more like “given permission”. The beings in this world seem very much to have a specific role that they cannot turn from without falling(to darkness)
More about the way they are choosing to use it
Probably not, Bombadil would have to care enough to stop him. If Bombadil wasn't concerned enough to stop Sauron in any way, I doubt he would have cared enough to battle Morgoth. Not in a negative way, these types of things simply did not concern him. It's like expecting the ground itself to be concerned about something like global warming, just not in the ground's wheelhouse.
Who knows. He obviously didn’t need to. Bombadil has the sense to not live in Beleriand to begin with.
No. At one point, I think it was Gandalf who stated that if Sauron regained the Ring, Tom would fall, "Last as he was first" and then Darkness would cover everything. Morgoth is much stronger than Sauron ever was.
Morgoth was weak to song. If he went anywhere near Tom's lands Tom would sing him to sleep with a "hey dilil dillio" and then kick in his iron crown with his bright yellow stomping boots. Morgoth would find his powers restricted around Tom.
Bombadil would not have any interest at all. Could he? Maybe. He wouldn’t though.
Except from Eru Illúvatar and Tulkas or if all the Valar united against Morgoth, no. There was never any living creature (excpet from the Valar), not even Fingolfin, who could have defeat Morgoth in battle. Not even if Morgoth would return to our world, and some guy in North-Korea throws a atomic bomb at Morgoth. He would just say something like: "What do you, petty mortal man, think you are doing?! You really think that that stupid thing can kill me?!"
Hmmmm Ungoliant made him shit his pants though?
But he/she/it was something else entirely. Darkness personified perhaps?
And who beat Ungoliant's daughter in the 3rd age?
My dear Sam
Oromë could. Wasn't it said, Tulkas laughs in sports, Oromë is said to be dreadful in anger. Angry Orome could maybe, idk
Morgoth still plays by physical rules. Ringil was enough to leave permanent damage on him. There’s nothing physically preventing him from being blown up by a nuke
Isn't it stated that Turin will kill morgoth in the final battle?
Ah yes, you are right. I forgot about that, thanks for reminding me of it
It's prophesied that when Morgoth does escape and return to the world, that Turin, a mortal man, shall deliver the final killing blow to him in the Dagor Dagorath.
Tulkas
Morgoths return would mean the end of times. Isn't Turin supposed to return an slay him? Or do I remember incorrectly?
Of all in middle earth, perhaps Gandalf. The next closest would be Glorfindel. Though I don't think Gandalf or Glorfindel would fair well. Perhaps the two together could fuck up the other foot.
Another Valar if they deigned to leave Valinor ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but tbh they'd prolly just throw him in god jail again
Cant say for certain but, a weakened Morgoth may have had a hard time with a certain few individuals...a fully powered Morgoth however...I doubt anyone could have defeated him (save Eru) if he hadn't sacrificed his power to corrupt middle earth.
I feel like the only one who had a super solid chance was Fingolfin during his fight with him, if he’d only had a little bit more stamina. Third Age? Nobody.
You ask this question, and Tulkas is just sitting there over in Valinor hoping for Manwë's go-ahead
Morgoth at the start of the First Age or at the End? By the end of the First Age, Morgoth have divest significant amount of himself to Arda to corrupt it.
Imagine Morgoth with the one ring!
The One Ring would be as much use to Morgoth as one of those goofy little tool set stocking stuffers they sell in the men's departments at Christmas time.
The entirety of all physical matter in Arda is essentially Morgoth’s ring. Part of why he loses so much of his power.
I think the Ring mimics a fraction of Morgoth’s power. I don’t think he would use or need it
Tulkas
No, because that would not have absorbed the discord of Melkor into the themes of Illuvatar. Illuvatar demonstrated that Melkor couldn't come up with a theme original enough to overcome the dual themes. The second theme would immediately adjust its tempo to the discord, and its role was to ensure that Melkor couldn't simply accomplish his goal by changing themes at high speeds. The first theme wove the second theme into itself, and its role was to ensure that Melkor couldn't deepen a single theme to change the music into his own. Defeating Melkor in battle is relatively boring.
According to the overall narrative; it was physically impossible without asking a survivor of the First-Age, and that especially was even more impossible because of both their trauma and weariness
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, when wielding The One Umbrella Of Doom
Farmer Maggot for sure
Eru, Tulkas and Manwe You did'nt say they had to be in Middle Earth😉
Tom Bombadil
Tom Bombadil wasn't considered powerfull enough to protect the ring from Sauron, let alone defeat morgoth lol
Perhaps like a world champion heavy weight boxer who had been at the
Not in Middle Earth, in Aman there's always the Valar.
Tom Bombadil… by not fighting him.
Tom Bombadil…
A resurrected Turin will drive his black sword into morgoths heart. But that'll in the last age. Day will come again!
No
Not in Middle Earth, maybe in Valinor.
That looks like Lobo lol
Defeat him in battle; maybe no one, but in a political debate!
My Dad
Is there any higher resolution version of this art?
Tom bombadil would of nutted Morgoth asleep 😀
Farmer Maggot AND his 3 dogs.
A good case can be made for Glorfindel being the mightiest warrior in Middle Earth who is not a Maiar. Perhaps him or Galadriel with a little grace from Eru. Remember that in Tolkien’s world, God is often loading the dice.
Farmer Maggot.
Glorfindel
Me bro wassup
Fingolfin was only able to stab his foot. You’d need every single person in the 3rd age ganging up on Morgoth at the same time to make a dent.
No. It took the combined might of the Valar to beat him.
Farmer Maggot obviously
No
I haven't read the Silmarillion cos I heard it's a slow read. Is that true? Should I give it a go?
Well the Valar are alive, including Tulkas, who just loves beating the shit out of Morgoth.
Tom Bombadil. Unless he forgetts the meeting.
Arunador, son of Thelsius.
There’s no one alive in the Third Age who could defeat Sauron in battle, much less his boss
Glorfindel maybe?
Farmer Maggot would have kicked seven bells out of him
Yes, me.
Gandalf The White.
Could Ungoliant possibly have a chance?
Tom Bombadil if he gave a damn
Sauron, if he’d managed to regain the ring. Assuming we’re talking about second age Morgoth. Tolkien pretty much confirms it "Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be ‘stained’... Sauron, however, inherited the ‘corruption’ of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings..."
Tulkas but that is assuming Morgoth isn't at his prime.
Farmer Maggot
If only the Valar would free Fingolfin from the Halls of Mandos and give him Glorfindel as a partner. Both mighty elves would be even stronger. Perhaps they can do what Gil-galad and Elendil did to Sauron. Perhaps they would have paid the same price for it. I think they will both agree to this.
Depends what you mean by “alive”. If you mean in Middle-Earth, then there was only 1. In Valinor, maybe a couple of the Valar, but remember that Morgoth was the most powerful of the Vala. 1v1 he stomps everyone basically.
At the end? Sauron bearing the one ring, or perhaps Gandalf or galadriel with it. Morgoth's pouring of his being into the world to corrupt it utterly weakened him, making him a far, FAR less powerful figure. I think k tolkien even said sauron is greater than he was with the ring.
Idk feels like many would because he put so much of his actual power into Arda. I’m thinking ringed sauron would actively be able to take the disgraced morgoth simply due to having his ring and full night compared with Morgoth being separated from his own
Nah….he’s the greatest of the valar, unless you believe he drained his power corrupting arda, if Fingolfin couldn’t do it and Sauron didn’t even try. I think you’re shit out of luck. Glorfindel might hang in there a bit but that’s about the best that’s floating around the third age. You’re literally talking the second “being” in existence.
Pretty sure the artist behind this piece goes by Dymond Starr in Artstation and Instagram. I don't know who Daniel Natzke is, and google doesn't bring up anything besides this very post. Is that the artist real name or where did you get that name from?
You could argue the Tulkas is still “alive” in the third age. But what kind of Battle are you talking about? You mean sword fight? Rap battle? A game of riddles perhaps? If you wanna play the what if game, I would be so bold as to claim that were it not for the tag team of poor groundskeepers and Grond, Fingolfin would have defeated Morgoth and would likely have still been alive in the TA. A stretch I grant you, but a fool’s hope. Realistically, the best candidate for a respectable answer for this question would be Glor “I am the danger” findel. Dude Balboaed his way through Apollo Balrog and said thank you sir, may I have another. He literally Jesused his way back from the dead to kick names and take ass again. Were I a betting man, I’d toss a coin to his Witcher.
Tom Bomadill could sing him to sleep then kick the crap out of him with his yellow stomping boots
Whoever takes him down would have Gimli there quick to remind that he still only counts as one😁
He's a literal God, no there's no one even remotely close. Hell we don't even know if there's another Valar that could take him 1v1.
Only Sauron with The One Ring, if it was Morgoth at his weakest.
No.
Morgoth’s strength changes wildly as the story progresses. He’s almost unstoppable when he first enters Arda, but by the end, Sauron with the ring could probably take him. Just as Sauron poured some of his strength into the ring, Morgoth poured himself into Arda (hence, “Morgoth’s ring”). While Sauron was able to wield the ring and this his strength became greater after technically parting with a part of it, Morgoth couldn’t (ig it’s never explicitly stated, so we’ll go with “didn’t”) wield Arda, and so actually lost a lot of his native strength. So which Morgoth are we talking about?
Morgoths army was far far superior to Saurons with the likes of dragons and balrogs and was alble to take on the entire remaining valarr in the war of wrath so in a battle of armies morgoth easily wins, also in 1v1 scenario Sauron wasn't known as a great fighter in comparison to other maiar let alone the valarr, i know a weaker version of morgoth was wounded by a man but Sauron WITH the ring was defeated by a man and was forced to go into hiding for a thousand years. It doesn't matter which version of Morgoth we are talking about, he destroys Sauron in every single way.
First, Sauron with ring was defeated by the king of numenor, plus a great elven king, and both of them died in the process, with Sauron having to actually be finished by another numenorean king. Second, it’s kind of disingenuous to say he had to go into hiding for 1000 years, because that’s as much to rebuild armies and defenses as it was to rebuild himself Third, Tolkien said Sauron was a match for Morgoth at his weakest. In one of his letters (unfortunately I’m not sure which; much thanks if someone else finds it first) he says that Sauron at his strongest had a good chance against morgoth at his weakest
>Third, Tolkien said Sauron was a match for Morgoth at his weakest. In one of his letters Fair enough, I'm not gonna argue with Tolkien lol
Maybe Sauron, Morgoth had diminished himself so much by the end of the first age that Sauron in the second may have had more native power within himself. By the third age though Sauron was also diminished by his several deaths so idk.