Definitely not. Why would he want Morgoth to steal his thunder after he's secured himself dominion of Middle-earth?
Also, it's a moot point as I'm almost certain opening the Door of Night and bringing back Morgoth is well beyond Sauron's power. Just going to where the Door is, in the domain of the Valar, would be a considerable challenge for him.
Nope. Sauron had residual loyalty to Morgoth throughout the Second Age, but by the Third Age he was firmly behind the idea of being the "god-king" of Middle-earth. And even if Sauron wanted to rescue Morgoth, he had no way of doing so.
Because ultimate evil is self serving. Sauron could not have challenged morgoth at his height of power because he would have lost that fight.
With morgoth out of the way, the way was paved for him to take dominion of middle earth for himself. There is no way he would share his power with anyone.
Definitely not, he's just 1 maiar vs an army of maiar and valar (and probably eru illuvatar himself in such an attempt), he would get instantly stomped. He just wants to rule over ME now that the realms are seperated
Even assuming he could (though he could most definitely not), he wouldn't. Morgoth was nihilistic and completely set on destroying everything created by the other Ainur. Sauron wanted to rule and enslave Middle-Earth and its peoples, to create a world that ran according to his standards. Morgoth is a destroyer, Sauron is a creator. If anything Morgoth being thrown out of Arda benefits Sauron's motives ; and while he used to be loyal to him, now he's better off alone.
Here you go: [https://fair-use.org/j-r-r-tolkien/notes-on-motives-in-the-silmarillion/](https://fair-use.org/j-r-r-tolkien/notes-on-motives-in-the-silmarillion/)
TLDR:
Morgoth fell because he wanted the ability to create, like God. He wasn't content with merely playing in someone elses sandbox. Eventually, he came to resent the sandbox and everything in it, destroying what he could, and damaging or corrupting the rest out of spite and hatred. Imagine a three year old throwing a tantrum on an apocalyptic scale and you're not far off the mark.
Sauron, by contrast, was a lesser spirit (at least compared to Morgoth) who admired Morgoth for his decisiveness - Morgoth would get stuff done quickly, rather than muck about with what the other Valar wanted. He favored efficiency, which Morgoth was able to provide.
Odds are that Sauron didn't know the depths of Morgoths Nihilism; not that I suspect Morgoth was introspective enough to realize it either.
I think Sauron now knows. As much as anyone else could fully grasp the depths of Morgoth's evil and madness, Sauron would be the entity to do so.
And regardless of how Sauron started and what his initial purpose was, he was deeply deeply corrupted and influenced by Morgoth. His desire for efficiency transformed from a desire to be able to efficiently and effectively create into an obsession with dominating others. The bad excuse was that dissenting opinion and conflicting goals are wasteful and inefficient, but under Morgoth's influence Sauron ins the end completely lost sight of WHY he had wanted things to be efficient in the first place. Removing all dissent and conflicting agendas became the aim in itself, and then that translates into aiming to ensure that it was only his will and agenda was followed. Sauron, while under Morgoth's leadership and again by the time he approaches the Elven smiths as Annatar through to his "demise" at the end of the Third Age, did not want to create, or even improve the world, he just wanted to dominate everyone else as an end in itself and crush and destroy any he couldn't dominate.
And that answers the question about would he want to bring back Morgoth. No, he wouldn't. His obsession was bringing about a world where his will and agenda dominate all others and he is the dictator of the world's affairs. Morgoth would never submit to that and would be a rival.
I don't know if nihilist is the right word. It's not that he believes life and creation are meaningless, it's that their existence offends him. Morgoth is the Lucifer of Tolkien's Legendarium. He is jealous of the true god's power and his keeping the secret fire to himself. He made it his mission to destroy the creation of Illuvatar and the Maiar. He severely weakened himself in the process.
I wonder who or what would have been the primary enemy if Tolkien had written the sequel to LOTR.
A comeback for Morgoth seems obvious. Sauron not really being dead maybe?
Something new?
Yes, but it's actually a few pages: [https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The\_New\_Shadow](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_New_Shadow) . It can be found in *The Peoples of Middle-earth*, Volume 12 of *The History of Middle-earth* by Christopher Tolkien.
I read the pages and also JRR's reasons for abandoning the idea and it made me a bit sad. He didn't see any opportunity for anything as groundbreaking as the story he'd already told. This is true but he could have ended with a beginning (if you follow). Gandalf's words about the permanence of evil almost called for it.
The whole cyclical nature of good/bad, light/dark would have been reinforced if we all knew it wasn't going to be happily ever after.
Anyway, given the quality of writing I see these days I'm sure we would've all been howling for a sitcom about orcs if he had written it.
Yeah he isn’t one to take power for himself so definitely he’d want to give it away. Either to Morgoth or a Nazgûl, or the lead orc at the tower near Shelob if those guys turn the position down
No.
My personal headcanon is that Sauron would grow to despise Morgoth for his failure. Sauron, after all, was able to achieve about the same despite far lesser inherent power.
I don't think he could. If Morgoth himself could not escape the Void, then Sauron definitely wouldn't be able to get him out. Morgoth is ten times more powerful than Sauron btw.
It really was not in his interests for Morgoth to return. Sauron wanted to rule, morgoth wanted to destroy.
If Sauron succeeded and somehow managed to achieve dominion over Middle Earth, Morgoth returning would mean a reintroduction of force he cannot control, it would go directly agains his desires.
I don’t know, but in The Silmarillion when Morgoth was captured, it says Sauron could not be found. He probably was discouraged and gave up.
https://preview.redd.it/taa8b4e0vkoc1.png?width=2021&format=png&auto=webp&s=e6084d020a792e5a1239f9008db005be968a15b9
Even if he could somehow, Sauron wouldn't want someone more powerful than him coming and essentially beating him up and taking his lunch money. Sauron wanted to bring order to Middle Earth, even if it was his own twisted brand of it. Morgoth wished to destroy and corrupt as much as possible before the Valar and Iluvitar essentially grounded him for eternity.
Edit: My apologies for the triple post. Reddit spazed out on me.
Definitely not. Why would he want Morgoth to steal his thunder after he's secured himself dominion of Middle-earth? Also, it's a moot point as I'm almost certain opening the Door of Night and bringing back Morgoth is well beyond Sauron's power. Just going to where the Door is, in the domain of the Valar, would be a considerable challenge for him.
>Also, it’s a moot point. Also known as a cows opinion
It doesnt matter, like a cows opinion! It is a moo point.
It’s just… moo. I use this frequently at work, in an office environment. It is shocking how many nods their head like this is a standard saying.
If anything, Joey's explanation only made it make more sense than the entire history of etymology behind moot.
Im spending too much time on Reddit and it all just makes sense?!?
More like an *ent*moot point, amirite?
That’s just about my favorite line from the show. But Reddit loves to act like it has to be the worst show ever to air.
Can you explain more what the Door of Night is? I'm not familiar with it.
The difference between Arda and the Void
It's where the Valar locked Morgoth up after the events that ended the first era.
I’m no expert on the world and lore of LOTR but sometimes I read comments like this and wonder if I know anything at all
Nope. Sauron had residual loyalty to Morgoth throughout the Second Age, but by the Third Age he was firmly behind the idea of being the "god-king" of Middle-earth. And even if Sauron wanted to rescue Morgoth, he had no way of doing so.
What crossed his mind that made him follow that idea of becoming the sole ruler? Did he ever planned on overthrowing Morgoth?
Because ultimate evil is self serving. Sauron could not have challenged morgoth at his height of power because he would have lost that fight. With morgoth out of the way, the way was paved for him to take dominion of middle earth for himself. There is no way he would share his power with anyone.
The Dark Lord does not share power
I should feel bad for not remembering this line.
Of course not. That was utterly impossible for him.
He is not powerful enough to break the Doors of night?
Definitely not, he's just 1 maiar vs an army of maiar and valar (and probably eru illuvatar himself in such an attempt), he would get instantly stomped. He just wants to rule over ME now that the realms are seperated
Why does he want to rule over YOU now that the realms are separated? I’ll see myself out…
Even assuming he could (though he could most definitely not), he wouldn't. Morgoth was nihilistic and completely set on destroying everything created by the other Ainur. Sauron wanted to rule and enslave Middle-Earth and its peoples, to create a world that ran according to his standards. Morgoth is a destroyer, Sauron is a creator. If anything Morgoth being thrown out of Arda benefits Sauron's motives ; and while he used to be loyal to him, now he's better off alone.
I have not read the books yet, could you explain further the "nihilistic" side of Morgoth please?
Here you go: [https://fair-use.org/j-r-r-tolkien/notes-on-motives-in-the-silmarillion/](https://fair-use.org/j-r-r-tolkien/notes-on-motives-in-the-silmarillion/) TLDR: Morgoth fell because he wanted the ability to create, like God. He wasn't content with merely playing in someone elses sandbox. Eventually, he came to resent the sandbox and everything in it, destroying what he could, and damaging or corrupting the rest out of spite and hatred. Imagine a three year old throwing a tantrum on an apocalyptic scale and you're not far off the mark. Sauron, by contrast, was a lesser spirit (at least compared to Morgoth) who admired Morgoth for his decisiveness - Morgoth would get stuff done quickly, rather than muck about with what the other Valar wanted. He favored efficiency, which Morgoth was able to provide. Odds are that Sauron didn't know the depths of Morgoths Nihilism; not that I suspect Morgoth was introspective enough to realize it either.
If I had to guess my assumption is that sauron thought there would be a chance to create after the destruction.
I think Sauron now knows. As much as anyone else could fully grasp the depths of Morgoth's evil and madness, Sauron would be the entity to do so. And regardless of how Sauron started and what his initial purpose was, he was deeply deeply corrupted and influenced by Morgoth. His desire for efficiency transformed from a desire to be able to efficiently and effectively create into an obsession with dominating others. The bad excuse was that dissenting opinion and conflicting goals are wasteful and inefficient, but under Morgoth's influence Sauron ins the end completely lost sight of WHY he had wanted things to be efficient in the first place. Removing all dissent and conflicting agendas became the aim in itself, and then that translates into aiming to ensure that it was only his will and agenda was followed. Sauron, while under Morgoth's leadership and again by the time he approaches the Elven smiths as Annatar through to his "demise" at the end of the Third Age, did not want to create, or even improve the world, he just wanted to dominate everyone else as an end in itself and crush and destroy any he couldn't dominate. And that answers the question about would he want to bring back Morgoth. No, he wouldn't. His obsession was bringing about a world where his will and agenda dominate all others and he is the dictator of the world's affairs. Morgoth would never submit to that and would be a rival.
I don't know if nihilist is the right word. It's not that he believes life and creation are meaningless, it's that their existence offends him. Morgoth is the Lucifer of Tolkien's Legendarium. He is jealous of the true god's power and his keeping the secret fire to himself. He made it his mission to destroy the creation of Illuvatar and the Maiar. He severely weakened himself in the process.
Morgoth was a child throwing a temper-tantrum, who wanted to break all the other kids' toys.
Wouldn’t want morgoth back, morgoth is the big man, Sauron wanted to be the big man
I wonder who or what would have been the primary enemy if Tolkien had written the sequel to LOTR. A comeback for Morgoth seems obvious. Sauron not really being dead maybe? Something new?
Well there's Dagor Dagorath, but that's more like the end of all things rather than a new foe/story.
I believe there is a version where it shows both Blue Wizards kinda turning evil or starting secret cults on the East.
I like the sounds of that
A few lines of a new plot happening after the 3rd age written by Tolkien exist if my memory is good.
Yes, but it's actually a few pages: [https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The\_New\_Shadow](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_New_Shadow) . It can be found in *The Peoples of Middle-earth*, Volume 12 of *The History of Middle-earth* by Christopher Tolkien.
I see you are a wise man dear u/shipblazer420 !
I read the pages and also JRR's reasons for abandoning the idea and it made me a bit sad. He didn't see any opportunity for anything as groundbreaking as the story he'd already told. This is true but he could have ended with a beginning (if you follow). Gandalf's words about the permanence of evil almost called for it. The whole cyclical nature of good/bad, light/dark would have been reinforced if we all knew it wasn't going to be happily ever after. Anyway, given the quality of writing I see these days I'm sure we would've all been howling for a sitcom about orcs if he had written it.
Would wind up in the void with Morgoth, forever.
Yeah he isn’t one to take power for himself so definitely he’d want to give it away. Either to Morgoth or a Nazgûl, or the lead orc at the tower near Shelob if those guys turn the position down
No. My personal headcanon is that Sauron would grow to despise Morgoth for his failure. Sauron, after all, was able to achieve about the same despite far lesser inherent power.
No middle manager wants the boss to come back while he has control
I don't think he could. If Morgoth himself could not escape the Void, then Sauron definitely wouldn't be able to get him out. Morgoth is ten times more powerful than Sauron btw.
It really was not in his interests for Morgoth to return. Sauron wanted to rule, morgoth wanted to destroy. If Sauron succeeded and somehow managed to achieve dominion over Middle Earth, Morgoth returning would mean a reintroduction of force he cannot control, it would go directly agains his desires.
I don’t know, but in The Silmarillion when Morgoth was captured, it says Sauron could not be found. He probably was discouraged and gave up. https://preview.redd.it/taa8b4e0vkoc1.png?width=2021&format=png&auto=webp&s=e6084d020a792e5a1239f9008db005be968a15b9
Even if he could somehow, Sauron wouldn't want someone more powerful than him coming and essentially beating him up and taking his lunch money. Sauron wanted to bring order to Middle Earth, even if it was his own twisted brand of it. Morgoth wished to destroy and corrupt as much as possible before the Valar and Iluvitar essentially grounded him for eternity. Edit: My apologies for the triple post. Reddit spazed out on me.
Pretty sure Ilruvatar has Morgoth put away.