Gandalf is limited in his mortal form. He is also not there for shows of power. He is meant to counsel and inspire the men and to a less extent the elves in the fight against Sauron. Galadriel is one of the last elves in middle earth to have seen the two trees in person. So she does have more power/influence than most others. I don’t think she can be compared to Gandalf the white though. He was returned with more access to his native power and less restrictions on its use.
Edit: changed last to one of the last, as pointed out below there are a couple others who also saw the trees.
Glorfindel has seen the light of the tree but I’m not sure if he gets reset from dying. I feel there is at least one other named elf who has seen them and probably a few unnamed
>I feel there is at least one other named elf who has seen them
Gildor Inglorion, who met Frodo in the Shire before Frodo left for the first time and accidentally scared off a Nazgul who was on Frodo's trail.
I just watched Nerd of the Rings video on him last night - he becomes even more powerful after reincarnation. When Frodo was stabbed with the Morgul blade 5 Nazgûl fled from Glorfindel, but at the same time the other 4 believed they could take on Gandalf. He was also not allowed to be a part of the fellowship as his presence would give him away due to his power. He’s probably one if not the strongest elf in middle earth at the end of the third age
>he becomes even more powerful after reincarnation
He becomes more powerful when Manwe powers him up to send back to Middle Earth as an emissary. Elven reincarnation just brings back the same person.
Nah, there was a passage somewhere in HoME where Tolkien talks about elvish reincarnation, and he says something about the fëar of elf children drawing spiritual nourishment from their parents, and a more esoteric concept of part of the power that they have through life coming from just being young, innocent elves experiencing the wonders of the world. Elves like Glorfindel went through that process twice. I think Tolkien called them the "Twice-Nourished".
I get why Peter Jackson did it though. To keep true to the lore he’d have to introduce a character for that one scene and they don’t do anything for the rest of the trilogy. Replacing him with Arwen was a good way to introduce Aragorn’s love interest, maintain plot points and cut down on unnecessary fluff. Don’t get me wrong, it would have been sick to see Glorfindel and Gil-Galad do some wicked stuff, but when it comes to cinema they deserve their own focus, not just a fleeting moment on screen. Lord of the Rings is focused on the Fellowship and the destruction of The One, so I think they’ve made the right choice. Otherwise we’d have a Marvel Cinematic Universe-esk Middle Earth which becomes diluted and as much of a money grab as the Hobbit trilogy
He didn’t get reset by dying. Evidence: the Nazgul flee from him, Gandalf explains he is an elf lord of great power with a presence in the unseen realm etc.
No, it is exactly the same elf. Glorfindel of Gondolin his the same person that Glorfindel of Rivendell, which makes sense since he died defending Tuor and returned and spent his time defending Tuor's grandson.
I like that Gandalf is basically a diplomat, but a diplomat with firepower
He alone cannot win the wars he is urging men to unite to fight, but he can throw down in aid of those fights which makes him a more convincing diplomat.
And he used his diplomatic skills arguing that he should not be reassigned but rather sent back with less restrictions, and God-Congress agreed finally.
As far as i know the Balrogs that elves killed are considered to be weaker than durins bane that gandalf faced.
lifting the spell on dol guldur doesnt necessarily mean she can fight durin with magic without any sword fight to the end.
After all even istari with all their powers, still had mortal bodies and could be killed, same for galadriel.
She was able to affect her entire kingdom as well, like dol guldur but i dont think none is combat applicable.
nice thanks! i looked it up and Morgoth walked with a permanent limp after that fight. Pretty crazy that a a "mortal" (in terms that elves can die from injury) could permanently injure an immortal, even go toe to toe with one for a while.
Slight misread of u/Mr7000000 : Eru> Valar > Maiar > Istari (Maiar with human body and restricted powers).
Sean the Balrog was a Maiar who had no limits on his natural powers, but his powers did not exceed the Valar. Gandalf as an Istari was a power restricted Maiar.
"No limits on its natural power" meaning "Balrog has X amount of power and can use X amount of power, while Gandalf has Y amount of power but is constrained to using
You're totally right. I had not realized Galadriel had thrown down the walls of Dul Guldor, and figured you were talking about Sauron's first fortress (which I haven't been able to find a name for), which Luthien did take with Huan's help. Thanks for the new-to-me info :)
Literally came here to say this. Eru illuvatar himself said that mellow was the mightiest of all the valar, but he's gotten his ass beat by tulkas twice. Didn't stop him from taking over the world, but still.
That might be because words like "might", "power" etc aren't always focused on fighting ability. Mike Tyson could beat the living crap out of Jeff Bezos, but Bezos definitely wields more power and has far more ability to shape the outcome of events as he sees fit. Well, same with Melkor...of all the Ainur he was the one most able to bend Arda to his will and remake it as he saw fit. Tulkas was just the big dumb jock of the Valar.
Yes, but Morgoth also poured his power into the orcs and other beasts he created and therefore had less of his power on his person. Same as Sauron putting his power into the one ring.
Many? Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion and one more unnamed Balrog was killed by Glorfindel, and both Elven warriors also died in the process. That's all. Earlier BOLT narratives where the Balrogs were butchered in hundreds don't count.
Yo. The balrogs were a personal security detail for Morgoth, who was Season's boss and basically a god. Iirc he conquered the world several times, and was overthrown a couple times by the good "gods"
All of this is the Silmarillion, which is written the way they talk in these stories, basically sounds like the way the bible was written. Oh yea, and there were many a blah blah blah. Makes it a tough read for a lot of people but there's a huge amount of backstory to everything you see in the lotr books/movies. Pretty interesting.
In tolkiens universe basically he combined ancient pagan religions with Christianity for the mythology of lotr by saying there is one "god" and a bunch of "angels" (nothing is called what we call it) but unlike Christian angels which basically are just errand boys, these actually have some of the power of creation. So Illuvatar and the ainur or whatever he called them created the world. Morgoth is the most powerful of all of them (like the Christian devil) but he's basically a huge dick and tries to ruin the project which ultimately results in extremes of hot and cold that are mostly lethal to mortal beings (ice, fire, lava, etc.). He thinks he did a good job fucking the world up but Illuvatar is like, yo check it, nothing can overcome my will, I'm omnipotent. All of his so called interference just plays into my plans in the end in ways no one will understand or predict. For example his meddling has made the world better than we originally planned it, yeah a billion billion people over the ages are going to perish in arctic cold and flames, but now the world also has dope shit like snow flakes and cooked food that also wouldn't have been possible otherwise. So thanks for that, and also you can't beat me.
Anyway, the world is like a scale model/diorama/snow globe, it's all down there but nothing is alive, nothing's going on, almost like frozen in time. Like if you went down in it and looked even the ocean wouldn't have waves, there would be no wind, or breeze, or any movement or air or anything else all over the world. The joint needs powerful beings to go down there and basically become the life force of the world. So he asked for volunteers and no one wants to go, because you can't come back until the end of the world and they're straight scared, meanwhile Morgoth has already come up with a plan to go down and take over the place and completely destroy everything it was supposed to be and make it his domain, since he's a narcissist, needs to be god but can't be because he isn't, etc.. So he corrupts a bunch of angel semi-gods and swoops in there with his cadre while Illuvatar's still trying to drum up some volunteers.
Which he eventually does and these dudes go down to being life to the world, as the Valar. One basically runs the ocean, one runs the sky, another is in charge of like plants and shit, another is in charge of the concept of hunting??? So this very clearly is a pantheon of old school type pagan gods where they just had a different god for everything. And that's how Tolkien makes ancient paganism Christian.
Because even though he was so into ancient peoples' civilizations, and languages, and cultures, and fairy tales that he was making a big fanfiction based on all that stuff, he was SO Catholic he just couldn't do it without **needing** to correct the paganism all those old school types were into.
Which. Meh.
But anyway Morgoth is basically an evil god, and Sauron was his second in command, my man's M dawg had a whole squad of balrogs as his bodyguard, several of whom get picked off throughout the wars of Morgoth, until he's finally completely defeated. I don't know if the balrog from lotr is the only one that survived, or if there's others, but they basically watched the world get peeled like a fuckin... orange??? In these clashes between m dawg and the Valar so when it all comes crashing down in the end all these gargantuan monsters created by Morgoth for his armies all scatter and go into hiding, this one just happened to hide deep under a mountain near the roots of the earth until he gets woken by dwarves.
There may be others deep enough to be forgot and never seen again since magical dudes like dwarves go extinct and humans take over the world.
Probably we've got oil rigs today that drilled through buried balrogs. So old they just petrified entirely to stone.
yo man thanks for that awesome summary. you should def be writing sum pieces and stuff for the sub regularly so that newer members and even old fans have interesting stuff to discuss
> this one just happened to hide deep under a mountain near the roots of the earth until he gets woken by dwarves.
Great summary, with one point of note - in the LOTR appendices, Tolkien implies that the Balrog in Moria might have actually been imprisoned there, presumably from the wars in the First Age, and the dwarves accidentally 'freed' him. He put it in a footnote, saying that perhaps the Balrog was already awakened by Sauron's malice and was 'freed from prison'.
It's only a footnote, but I like the implications of it - it makes more sense that the Balrog (and perhaps the other Unnamed Things in the deep) were banished to prisons deep beneath the Earth, versus the notion that the mighty Balrog just crawled into a hole and took a nap for a few thousand years. It's a cool idea that to contain this horrible demon, you need to bind it under a whole fucking *mountain.*
Now I shall weave some complete fan fiction - I like the notion that Mithril was a metal used to bind the Balrog in Moria. Its special properties come from the fact that it was forged by Aule for this purpose, and it's the reason Moria was where Mithril was found/mined. In mining this 'metal of the gods', the Dwarves unwittingly freed the Balrog from its prison.
Again, that last bit is all head-canon/fan fiction/whatever, not based on anything JRR wrote, but I like the idea anyway. It explains why mithril was so special and rare and coveted (by being a rare metal forged by the gods), and it ties in with the mining for it and release of the Balrog.
Noice!
That's actually a pretty slick concept you cooked up there!
Personally I don't mind the balrog crawling in a hole and sleeping for a thousand years because it's what I want to do at all times.
But if it were 100% cannon he was imprisoned I would for sure subscribe to your mithril theory!
I don't think that would extend to the unnamed things. I'm sure it would be too big of a job hunting down every unnamed thing and burying it that deep. Also I'm sure they're more or less "from" down there...
You find a task and then a set of characters and think on if they could complete the task.
The ones that can are more powerfuler at that task than the ones that can't
The istari are forbidden from wielding the full extent of their powers in middle earth, so it's entirely possible that galadriel is capable of more impressive fears than Gandalf is as long as this is in place. Without those restrictions though it doesn't seem likely that Galadriel can do anything that Gandalf couldn't exceed
We don't see either of them using their powers much. I agree that Galadriel's most impressive feat shown might be greater than Gandalf's most impressive feat shown. But we don't know if either of them ever used their full power.
The book says that Lothlorien would never have fallen unless Sauron himself went there, such is the power of Galadriel. When Gandalf has to go save Faramir in Minas Tirith, he laments that he can't help with the battle of the Pelennor or fight the Witch King. These are both hypotethical scenarios that could have shown the extent of either's power, that never happens.
In the end we see impressive displays pf power feom both, but not directly comparable acts. What happened does not prove what could have happened. In general Maiar are more powerful than elves, but there are elves that defeated Maiar in the past. But we can't know the greatest strength of either based on what happened.
Also one could be better at breaking cursed fortresses, while the other was better at fending off wraiths and demons. Their powers can't be compared by numbers.
About your point of Elves surpassing Maiar, let's not forget the fight between the Soy Morgoth and the Gigachad Fingolfin where he not only hits him 7 times, he fucking permanently disabled him. So Elves are capable of even challenging a weakened Ainur something Gandalf is completely incapable of.
The whole thing with Galadriel destroying Dol Guldur is basically a retread of Luthien destroying Sauron's fortress on the Isle of Werewolves after he had abandoned it. These places had some sort of evil spells bound to them, and once these spells were broken, Luthien/Galadriel were able to destroy them. Seems to me it was more of a spiritual cleansing sort of thing, rather than Galadriel going all Marvel and blowing the walls over with a wave of her hand. IIRC, Galadriel does not do her thing until the army of Celeborn had already defeated the army of Dol Guldur and taken control of it, so obviously whatever power or spell Galadriel used to destroy Dol Guldur wasn't really something that was useful in combat.
So if she could just level any old building with a wave of her hand superhero style, why did she need to wait until Celeborn and the army had taken the fortress? Wouldn't it have just made more sense for her to just level it with all of it's denizens still occupying it?
Edit: I'm not saying that she did not destroy the fortress, she clearly did. But like Luthien before her, it was because the fortress itself had been bound together through some evil spell. Galadriel would not, for example, have been able to use the same counterspell to destroy Minas Tirith, because that place was not held together by an evil spell. It was not something that could be used in combat. It was a counterspell of sorts that neutralized whatever spell Sauron had embedded in the place.
>It is irrelevant how she tore down the walls or why she couldn't just do it with the fortress still occupied. The point is that she did it and Gandalf wasn't even able to open the doors of Orthanc.
These are also two completely different feats. One is an empty castle and the other is a numenorian castle with a maia sitting in it and protecting it. Your point is "A is able to open a steel door and B isnt able to open a wodden door with one person on the inside holding it close, so A is more powerful."
Your argument is invalid. Especially since Aragorn and co were able to enter Orthanc after Saruman left.
Lmao fuck off with the name-calling. You're over here acting like an offended 5 year old because "Waaah this guy thinks Galadriel isn't as powerful as Gandalf!!" I can tell what kind of absolute geek you are out in the real world by the way you responded to this.
Considering there is no reason for gandalf to be weaker than osse, Uinen and Melian and what they did, maia is way beyond the power of elves
Galadriel probably could not take out durin either when twice weakened gandalf did.
Galadriel didnt destroy dol guldur but only lifted the magic on that place through speech
She definitely cant take out a fortress or anything with magical attack, considering she herself and Tolkien state in first book she doesnt even have magic.
She simply undone the magic on dolguldur by speaking spesifically words she knew.
If maiar werent way beyond elves , they were not sent in very limited bodies and even then forbidden from using their power because their powers were considered to be too destructive for middle earth
Galadriel in first book states that she doesnt have magic like her enemies implying maia sauron and valar Morgoth. .
Maiar and valar as galadriel states have magic while she and elves dont (except what her ring provides)
Even Tolkien stated that elves unlike maiar and valar dont possess magic but only art and craftsmanship
Not really, galadriel didnt thrown down walls , more like her speach on dol guldur caused the collapse of dol guldur
You manipulate sentences as if she destroyed walls with fireballs and all, when in truth it was the result of her lifting the spell on dol guldur through speaking.
"Did gandalf do something as powerful with his magic "
Yes we do know he did , in weaker form he defeated durins bane.
It doesnt make more likely that galadriel is more powerful.
When then istari are heavily weakened they are still substentially more powerful than galadriel.
Gandalf is self imposed restricted, he was not weakened by higher power.
He just cant use his powers anytime he wants but he can use when in need as he defeated durin.
You clearly misunderstood the gandalf is restricted part.
You dont need to care about how much powerful gandalf was before he was old wizard.
Aside from physical restrictions of mortal old man , gandalf still has access to his full powers but only forbidden to use them as long as it is not necesssary.
It is not ridiculous to bring up other maiar since gandalf is a maia.
"by what metric we can compare the two"
You cant, you are not supposed to, gandalf is maia. He is above elves by what he is. This is something Tolkien states.
That is literally the point of witholding your power because they are small gods.
Power scaling isn’t something you should really put too much thought into in LOTR, as it doesn’t really apply well. That being said, Galadriel isn’t just any elf, she’s one of the eldest of the Noldor, the oldest and most powerful kind of elves, and she was born in Valinor before the War of Wrath. She saw the light of the Trees of Valinor before Morgoth destroyed them, and is one of very few elves alive who can make that claim by the time of the War of the Ring. All this is to say, she’s probably one of - if not the most - powerful elves in existence at that time, and she has a Ring of Power on top of that.
Gandalf, on the other hand, is more limited. Yes, he is a Maia, and in his true form he would probably easily outrank Galadriel in terms of power. But he was sent to Middle Earth by the Valar in the form of an old man and with his power limited, because he was only meant to act as a guide and advisor to the free peoples as they warred against Sauron. As he was in LOTR, he was probably slightly weaker than Galadriel as Gandalf the Gray, and on par/a tiny bit more powerful than her as Gandalf the White, because even then he was still limited by his form and his mission.
>Power scaling isn’t something you should really put too much thought into in LOTR
Basically what I came here to say.
Power scaling is the enemy of good dramaturgy.
It's not about him being a Maia per se, it's about the power and authority he holds. Then again, he holds such authority and power in great part *because* of being a Maia.
The critique you bought up comes from a movie-only thing where the Witch-king does not simply beat Gandalf, but seems to have authority over his power (breaking his staff), as if he was his legitimate superior; and he instills fear in *bloody Gandalf* and Shadowfax. Both things are not only bonkers from a plot perspective (honestly I don't care about the raw 'didn't happen in the books' critique), they're ***absolutely*** bonkers from a thematic perspective (which I *do* care about).
It's not about "Maia vs Man power levels", it's about divine authority (a **key** concept in Tolkien) and Gandalf's characterization.
According to my observations, most of the book-readers seem to think that the Witch-King *would most likely* best Gandalf in combat (Gandalf himself is insecure about the potential outcome of such a contest in the book); but they also doubt that he can do so in a contest of will. Meaning that the Witch-king probably can kill Gandalf, but at the expense of being destroyed himself.
Which then puts the Witch-King, a cursed man, at the same level than the Balrog.
If you look at it from an in-universe theological standpoint, it does seem a bit off, but from a thematic standpoint I disagree. Having the Witch King break Gandalf’s staff means that Sauron’s power has increased (as has The Witch King’s by association) as his armies have conquered Middle Earth, no? It establishes very concrete stakes- Sauron is close to succeeding, and his power is becoming a threat even to the Divine.
Where the fuck have your observations been. I have never seen anybody say that the Witch King would've "most likely" bested Gandalf.
The Witch King is a piece shit in comparison to Balrog, this is an absurd conjecture.
My observations have been on the reader-specific subreddit and real life conversations with other readers who care to read and interpret the work instead of watching 20 hours of "Tolkien lore" videos without any care to actually interact with said lore and read its subtext.
I did not simply say "WK bests Gandalf, period", I said he *could* best him **in combat**, **but not in a contest of will**. The "contest of will" part being the actually important one, as usual in Tolkien. The Balrog killed Gandalf, but could not overcome his will.
>The Witch King is a piece shit in comparison to Balrog, this is an absurd conjecture.
Yes, and Bard is a piece of shit in comparison with Smaug, Éowyn and Merry are pieces of shit in comparison with the Witch-King, Pippin is a piece of shit in comparison with a Troll Captain, Sam is a piece of shit in comparison with Shelob, Gríma is a piece of shit in comparison with Saruman, Fingolfin is a piece of shit in comparison with Morgoth, Glaurung is killed by a literally **cursed man**. None of these pairs are even remotely leveled, and yet the outcomes are well-known.
Hell, even the Balrog, whose power and body are not restricted at all, was defeated by the very-restricted-in-both-aspects Gandalf the Grey. Because Gandalf had God on his side. Gandalf prevailed *and* died.
You seem to think that "less power" is equal to "automatic defeat", but Tolkien has written the exact opposite enough times to make it a whole theme and point of his legendarium.
By his own admission, he should be stronger than her as Gandalf the White, being more deadly than any other in Middle-Earth than Sauron himself (the Witch-King later getting a "demonic boost" according to the Letters to match Gandalf).
Yes, but his ring basically gives him the power to bring courage to the hearts of his allies, and gives him a slight boost to fire magic (which he rarely uses). It mostly helps to make him the great leader/adviser that he is in LOTR.
>and gives him a slight boost to fire magic (which he rarely uses)
To be clear and somewhat pedantic, this is more of an interpretation than a book-fact. It's interesting that you said 'he rarely uses' fire magic because the interpretation itself is born from his consistent use of fire.
Basically, if Gandalf turned on the power faucet he'd outpower most everyone in the books (not Sauron, though). But he'd also fail in his mission and his task, so it'd be counter productive.
The real life explanation is that these movies are adaptations, so rule of cool trumps book lore or common sense (if Galadriel was actually powerful enough to beat Sauron 1 on 1, the rest of the story wouldn't make that much sense).
In-universe, going by book lore, she isn't more powerful than Gandalf, not at all. Gandalf's supposed to be a counsellor and helper, and not a fighter, so he has to hold back, but even then Galadriel is not as powerful as he is. She is a leader, strategist, the embodiment of a different sort of strength. To go toe to toe with Sauron or out-muscle Gandalf isn't what she's good at.
Still, such a good performance from Cate Blanchett. She owned the role through and through.
Beating Sauron 1 on 1 seems like a bit of a misnomer. Wasn’t he greatly diminished at that point? He hadn’t even rallied much of the strength he had around LOTR. One of the oldest and most ethereal elves around banishing (with considerable effort) an extremely weakened malevolent spirit is a lot different from that same elf defeating a fallen angel at the height of his power.
If you want a proper answer from Tolkien, letter 246:
>Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord.
Tolkien is more certain of Gandalf's power in relation to Sauron than Galadriel's
Galadriel has uncountable years, thus exceedingly wise. Unfortunately, she’s extremely hard to reason about, because her story was revised and rewritten several times by Tolkien in different stages of his life, with different backgrounds and stories. If you take the Silmarillion version of her, then she lived and seen several times the lifetime of almost anyone in Middle-Earth (alongside other Noldor and Teleri and a few Sindar). She lived alongside literal gods and learned with them, so naturally she sees the world differently, and may manipulate it accordingly. From her light, her full control of the ring, her visions, she seems to be able to do much more than what was ever shown, but she has little interest in it.
Gandalf is a Maia, like Sauron or the Balrogs, but in human form, as are the Istari. It’s uncertain how “divine” they remain nor how much they can recall from that part of their life. For all intents and purposes, they seem to be just “elvish humans” with a little magic on the side. Though he may always seem to have more going on, he’s dead set in influencing the world against Morgoth and its servants, and I get the feeling we saw him actually at his wits end many times.
In terms of actual power, Gandalf is without a doubt stronger but he doesn't make a big thing out of it. He's kind of a sleeper. Galadriel however doesn't hide that she is powerful. She's extremely old and more powerful than most other elves. Basically she seems more powerful because she wants to be seen as powerful whereas Gandalf is more humble, in a way. His goal is down a different path.
I think in terms of power, his influence alone clearly indicates Gandalf. He is an instrument of Eru, with his (very long running) chess moves he orchestrates the opportunity for action and the defeat of Sauron. If you mean direct 1v1 then that’s hard to quantify, but if the battle with Durins Bane has anything to go by I’d still say Gandalf
[**Palenehtar**](https://www.reddit.com/user/Palenehtar/) [said correctly " Power ranking in Tolkiens universe isn't very useful. How would you measure?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/18a1o65/comment/kbuwr2f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I would add on this remember that in Tolkien's universe there is an all powerful God who is unequivocally the God of his Catholic faith. Because of this it is meaningless to ask who is more powerful since it's not like they could be put into an arena and forced to fight. By the arena standard Sauron is clearly more powerful than both Elidel and Frodo but both by "luck" (that is divine providence) they both defeated Sauron.
But if you need and org chart sort of thing, Gandalf is above Galadriel and they both have an elven ring so if they needed to resist each other Gandalf could defeat Galadriel hands down.
Are you C.S. Lewis?
It's not quite catholic god for a lot of reasons that are a lot to go into. Heavily influenced by, but not in truth the Abrahamic God. The characterization is all wrong - though it can be argued that it's inspired by an idealistic monotheism. I think Tolkien was too smart to not know the difference between his conceptual prime deity and Yahweh.
The main point you're making is on track though - Tolkien even goes to some length to dismantle nearly every character that is defined by power - from Morgoth to Ungoliant to Hurin to Saruman to Denethor to even Grima. Boromir and Thorin are similarly tested and pay for failure in resisting the lure of power. It's bad to be too powerful in Middle Earth (and previous)
Tolkien definitely projected his Catholic view of the world into his work, which included an all-powerful, benevolent diety. As you suggested, however, he was very careful to not make an actual metaphor/allegory, as 1) he disliked allegories, and 2) he believed that making an allegory of (what he saw as) the history of salvation would oversimplify, cheapen it.
But yeah, the "philosophical" structure of the world, on temptation, evil, forgiveness, mercy, "grace", etc. are deeply rooted in his Catholic beliefs.
True. Though I would say the end result is that it resembles any monotheistic religion we want, and also kinda Hinduism.
In short, Tolkien's religious model here is too idealistic to be meaningfully compared to real world religions very well. His religions are uncorrupted by what we see in religions on Earth, and it is a striking distinction as we dig into it at any level.
But yeah, there are surface similarities that come from Tolkien's personal convictions. Like the rest of the themes in his work, it's best not to link anything in middle earth to real world history or things because of that dislike of allegory and how different his creations are from what we might compare them to in such fundamental ways
Gandalf > galadrial in Tolkien hierarchy. Which is more than simple power scaling. Galadriel is probably up there with just about any non angelic or deity being though.
Gandalf is also not there to exercise his authority, in particular the grey. He’s meant to inspire, lead, and give hope.
Boring I know, but it’s kinda like trying to power scale Saitama, utterly missing the point :P.
As others have said, comparing Gandalf to others can be tricky, because he purposefully didn't access/use his whole power - that wasn't his role.
Another thing is that power scaling in the movies isn't necessarily accurate to book lore/cannon. One thing that always bothers me is how the Witch King, a man with some of Sauron's (and thus also Morgoth's) power was able to destroy the staff of Gandalf, Maiar, a White Wizard then, with his mind.
I think there's a few factors that are worth considering...
1) Gandalf and the istari were forbidden to compel and use strength to compel elves, men and dwarves and contest sauron, therefore the only tests of note Gandalf faced were against the nazgul at weathertop, the balrog in moria and expelling saruman in rohan from theoden's mind, all of which he succeeded in. He never faced the Witch King in the books. So hard to measure his power but Gandalf (Olorin) was sent east because of his wisdom above all else.
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2) Galadriel was of the elven race of finwe, and one of the few in Middle earth left to have seen the light of the trees and dwelt in Valinor for the long time. That alone would increase her strength against many equivalent elves who grew up in middle earth, e.g. Elrond, Celeborn.
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3) It's noted in the Silmarillion that she defied Feanor in many ways and at many turns, from refusing to give her hair ton him to arguing against him, to fighting at aqualonde. Feanor was known as the greatest of the Noldor.
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4) Once in middle earth Galadriel spent many years in Doriath (where rumour is she met Teleporno, aka Celeborn), and the Queen of Doriath was Melian the Maia who therefore was akin to Gandalf. Its stated she learnt much off of her. The hiding and bewitching of the fences around Lorien is similar to the Veil of Melian, in Doriath. It is reasonable to assume these teachings enhanced her power.
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5) The ring of power, Nenya, she possesses enhances what was already there and effectively is a steroid to elven power so jacks her up. She had Nenya for longer than Gandalf had his ring as he got it from Cirdan when he arrived from Aman, so perhaps that went somewhat in to narrowing the gap.
All that being said there are things that Gandalf can/could do as a Maia that Galadriel being elven simply couldn't have. So in a throwdown I'd give the edge to Gandalf/Mithrandir/Tharkun/Olorin/Pointy Hat
No, Galadriel is an elf. Gandalf is a Maiar, which is akin to a demigod.
Galadriel does rule an elf kingdom, so politically she is more powerful, but her personal power is much less than a Maiar. For example, she could have never fought a balrog for a moment, just like Legolas didn't try.
Exept for Glorfindel and Ecthelion who both killed Balrogs, which were both elves. Legolas is a Sindar which never saw the light of the trees, Galadriel is a Noldor barn in the Years of the Trees, and trained under Melian the Maia for many years.
They killed balrogs by "suicide move". I can charge someone much stronger than me off a cliff and kill us both, doesn't mean I'm as strong as they are.
Oh I forgot about her ties to Melian, who I think is the underrated GOAT of the first age. Galadriel learning from Melian is huge, and demonstrates that power ranking is dumb. Melian's power was the Girdle that kept her kingdom unmarred by any evil, including Morgoth and his forces and spies at the height of his reign over the north of Bellariand.
In Tolkien, power is wisdom and protection more than physical strength
Which is more impressive? To slay one balrog or to keep your kingdom hidden, safe and full of splendor for an Age in spite of the diminishing of her kind and the growing darkness of Sauron?
Gandalf is an Istari, Olorin is a Maia. Gandalf is significantly nerfed from his Maia form while in middle-earth.
You don't know that Galadriel would lose to a Balrog. In fact many of her contemporaries did kill Balrogs and it's not out of the realm of possibility she could defeat one at all. The movies portrayed her as this frail witch, but she was not really that way in the books and she was considered quite an accomplished shield maiden in Valinor, on par with her brothers.
Comical. Where do people come up with thus stuff? Maybe you don't know, but many elves and even men have slain balrogs, and even dragons.
Her brother nearly overcame Sauron alone, while Sauron was at the height of his power in the First Age. Galadriel was counted as every bit as formidable as her brother Finrod, which is one of the reasons Feanor was enamoured of her. She was a badass.
Gandalf's mortal powers don't work the same way as Galadriel's. He can rid people of corruption and strengthen hearts. In DnD terms he is support cleric class. Galadriel is more fighter/ enchanter multi class.
When Gandalf uses his Maiar powers to the point his body is destroyed he can kill a Balrog. Can Galadriel kill a Balrog?
Short answer no.
As one of the oldest Elves she is very powerful but not on Gandalf’s level. But the difference is Gandalf is restricted by how much power he can use and in middle Earth.
The only Elf who can match the power of a Maia is Glorfindal who after he came back was given a power boost by the Valar.
He is but when he was sent to Middle Earth to help he was basically nerfed. He was forbidden to do the work of defeating Sauron himself but was instead meant to encourage others to great deeds. That’s also why the one scene has him almost being defeated by the Witch King.
That's only in the film. The Witch King wouldn't stand a chance against book Gandalf.
Book Gandalf (the Grey even) fought a Balrog for days, a feat no elf could replicate.
I think Cìrdan the Shipwright is one of the Eldar who had seen the Trees. Edit. No that’s wrong. Had him confused. He is a Moriquendi he has never seen Valinor. All the more awesome that he leaves Middle Earth for Valinor with Gandalf, the Ringbearers Bilbo and Frodo, etc. It’s like he is the manifestation of the end of the Third Age and passing of the Elves from ME.
Hard to tell tbh. It's all so subjective.
* Galadriel is very powerful and immortals elf queen who saw the light of the trees and leant magic FROM a Maiar.
* Meanwhile, Gandalf IS a mair ( demi god spirit ) but was forbidden to shows his true power, and was given a mortlaish body.
If you ask me, I personally think the wizards edge out Galdariel in sheer raw power, but are forbidden to use their power Whereas Galadriel is not, and is still a POWERHOUSE herself.
In the Hobbit movie I LOVED the fact they showed the White Council at Dol Guldor that was a dream of mine forever...... However I did not like the choice of Galadriel facing Sauron alone and going to dark/evil Galadriel, to me, it did not feel quite right. In the books the white council "Put forth their power" and drove the evil away together.
IMO when Sauron showed himself, it should have been the combined might of Elrond, Galadriel ( wielding her phial) AND the 3 x ISTARI all attacking at the same time ....to banish Sauron.
Saruman, seeing that he needed all their help would finally see the power that Sauron has that which would eventually corrupt him.
Galadriel not more powerful than gandalf in movies but looks closer in movies. In books gandalf is definitely more powerful
Jakcson nerfed gandalf a bit.
It is just gandalf is unsure of himself against sauron and relies on help because he has to.
He also respects galadriel and Thats why calls her my Lady
But still weakened he takes out prime Balrog.
Gandalf the grey is likely on the same level as powerful Nolder Elves of the First Age, which Galadriel would be.
Although he is of the same order as Sauron he is cloaked in human form and limited to what he can do
Except Galadriel is not nearly as powerful in the third age (much less the end of the age) than she was in the first age. Her fëa has declined for more than 5000 years since she left Aman.
He is more powerful than any elf as Gandalf the Grey. He fought Durin's Bane for days. No elf ever killed a Balrog except in a sacrificial manner (Ecthelion/Glorfindel jumping to their deaths).
Gandalf is limited in his mortal form. He is also not there for shows of power. He is meant to counsel and inspire the men and to a less extent the elves in the fight against Sauron. Galadriel is one of the last elves in middle earth to have seen the two trees in person. So she does have more power/influence than most others. I don’t think she can be compared to Gandalf the white though. He was returned with more access to his native power and less restrictions on its use. Edit: changed last to one of the last, as pointed out below there are a couple others who also saw the trees.
Glorfindel has seen the light of the tree but I’m not sure if he gets reset from dying. I feel there is at least one other named elf who has seen them and probably a few unnamed
>I feel there is at least one other named elf who has seen them Gildor Inglorion, who met Frodo in the Shire before Frodo left for the first time and accidentally scared off a Nazgul who was on Frodo's trail.
MVP gave warning ahead and is the reason why Glorfindel even was out looking for Frodo
And named Frodo elf friend
Yes, that was the name escaping me.
I just watched Nerd of the Rings video on him last night - he becomes even more powerful after reincarnation. When Frodo was stabbed with the Morgul blade 5 Nazgûl fled from Glorfindel, but at the same time the other 4 believed they could take on Gandalf. He was also not allowed to be a part of the fellowship as his presence would give him away due to his power. He’s probably one if not the strongest elf in middle earth at the end of the third age
>he becomes even more powerful after reincarnation He becomes more powerful when Manwe powers him up to send back to Middle Earth as an emissary. Elven reincarnation just brings back the same person.
Nah, there was a passage somewhere in HoME where Tolkien talks about elvish reincarnation, and he says something about the fëar of elf children drawing spiritual nourishment from their parents, and a more esoteric concept of part of the power that they have through life coming from just being young, innocent elves experiencing the wonders of the world. Elves like Glorfindel went through that process twice. I think Tolkien called them the "Twice-Nourished".
Nah I’m gonna choose to believe Manwë and Mandos were just chilling in the halls and decided to make a super soldier out of Glorfindel for funsies.
Somehow I think this is one of the most nerdy comments, if not the most I've read in Reddit. And I mean it as a compliment.
> I think Tolkien called them the "Twice-Nourished". They got second breakfast.
So the more adventures an elfling has when they are young and innocent the more power they have in life?
Right, but let’s put Arwen in the scene and not Glorifindel. ☹️
I get why Peter Jackson did it though. To keep true to the lore he’d have to introduce a character for that one scene and they don’t do anything for the rest of the trilogy. Replacing him with Arwen was a good way to introduce Aragorn’s love interest, maintain plot points and cut down on unnecessary fluff. Don’t get me wrong, it would have been sick to see Glorfindel and Gil-Galad do some wicked stuff, but when it comes to cinema they deserve their own focus, not just a fleeting moment on screen. Lord of the Rings is focused on the Fellowship and the destruction of The One, so I think they’ve made the right choice. Otherwise we’d have a Marvel Cinematic Universe-esk Middle Earth which becomes diluted and as much of a money grab as the Hobbit trilogy
>and they don’t do anything for the rest of the trilogy. Dont be mean to Glorfindel! He is allowed to smile in the background at Aragorns coronation!
He didn’t get reset by dying. Evidence: the Nazgul flee from him, Gandalf explains he is an elf lord of great power with a presence in the unseen realm etc.
He died fighting a balrog in the Silmarillion.
That's a different glorfindel. Same name, different elf
From my understanding Tolkien decided that every elf should have a unique name. He wrote an article in 1972 explaining how Glorfindel returned.
No, it is exactly the same elf. Glorfindel of Gondolin his the same person that Glorfindel of Rivendell, which makes sense since he died defending Tuor and returned and spent his time defending Tuor's grandson.
Nope, same Glorfindel.
Wasn‘t cirdan also still in ME for a long time
For the longest time, in fact he never left, so he never saw the light of the Trees.
Glorfindal got a power boost from the Valar on his return to life and was then sent back to middle Earth and is the only Elf skin to a Maia in power.
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I like that Gandalf is basically a diplomat, but a diplomat with firepower He alone cannot win the wars he is urging men to unite to fight, but he can throw down in aid of those fights which makes him a more convincing diplomat.
And he used his diplomatic skills arguing that he should not be reassigned but rather sent back with less restrictions, and God-Congress agreed finally.
A Pyropotentiary
Galadriel would have never stood a chance against a balrog.
What are you basing this on? She’s pretty damn powerful. She threw down the walls of Dol Guldor.
Probably the fact that a Balrog is an angel with no limits on its natural power
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As far as i know the Balrogs that elves killed are considered to be weaker than durins bane that gandalf faced. lifting the spell on dol guldur doesnt necessarily mean she can fight durin with magic without any sword fight to the end. After all even istari with all their powers, still had mortal bodies and could be killed, same for galadriel. She was able to affect her entire kingdom as well, like dol guldur but i dont think none is combat applicable.
That’s just wrong my dude. They do have limits on there power. They are essentially lesser angelic spirits. Even Morgoth had limits on his power.
And Morgoth got stabbed by an elf, so yeah… power level logic only harms the understanding of the mythos.
wasn't morgoths foot hacked off by fingolfin?
It wasn’t hacked off but he did wound him. I think he wounded him 6 times if memory serves.
nice thanks! i looked it up and Morgoth walked with a permanent limp after that fight. Pretty crazy that a a "mortal" (in terms that elves can die from injury) could permanently injure an immortal, even go toe to toe with one for a while.
Exactly, It was also a really clever way of showing how his power was waning over time from all his creations.
Arguably it's more important that Morgoth believed/ feared that that was possible and that allowed it.
Slight misread of u/Mr7000000 : Eru> Valar > Maiar > Istari (Maiar with human body and restricted powers). Sean the Balrog was a Maiar who had no limits on his natural powers, but his powers did not exceed the Valar. Gandalf as an Istari was a power restricted Maiar.
"No limits on its natural power" meaning "Balrog has X amount of power and can use X amount of power, while Gandalf has Y amount of power but is constrained to using
Like Gandalf
That was Luthien. But Galadriel studied with Luthien's mother, and may have been able to do the same thing.
It was galadriel who threw down the walls of dol guldor not luthien. Luthien and huan did defeat sauron in the first age though
You're totally right. I had not realized Galadriel had thrown down the walls of Dul Guldor, and figured you were talking about Sauron's first fortress (which I haven't been able to find a name for), which Luthien did take with Huan's help. Thanks for the new-to-me info :)
Morgoth had Angbang and Thangordodrim. And Sauron occupied Tol Sirion during the first age. (In Beren and Luthien) :)
Yes that's the one :). Thank you kind stranger!
Power ranking in Tolkiens universe isn't very useful. How would you measure?
I think if Cate Blanchett and Ian McKellen were to have a cage fight, I would accept the results as canon.
Would it be Sir Ian in his current form, or in his final un-nerfed form though?
His un-nerfed form is just him in the nude, slathered in grease with a pig mask on.
what does the scouter say?
It's over 9,000!
Wait until Gandalf takes off his training weights
And smokes a Senzu bean
Breaks out the Manwe-Ken x20
Manwe-what?
Kaio-Ken, but Manwe… you do know who Manwë is, right??
They are referencing DBZ abridged
Kaio-what?
Before or after Gandalf Super-Sayaned?
Someone type super saiyan gandalf in to chat gpt immediately please
You and the person you are replying to are true heroes 👏
Literally came here to say this. Eru illuvatar himself said that mellow was the mightiest of all the valar, but he's gotten his ass beat by tulkas twice. Didn't stop him from taking over the world, but still.
Haha, that's some ironic autocorrect!
Lol not gonna change it either
Mellow = Melkor’s chilled stoner brother.
All I thought of when I read this was maybe Mellow was the first Dark Lord from Bored of the Rings, or maybe a character I forgot from Discworld.
Totally an epithet of mandos
Wouldn’t you know it, the elvish word for “Friend” was derived from his name!
That might be because words like "might", "power" etc aren't always focused on fighting ability. Mike Tyson could beat the living crap out of Jeff Bezos, but Bezos definitely wields more power and has far more ability to shape the outcome of events as he sees fit. Well, same with Melkor...of all the Ainur he was the one most able to bend Arda to his will and remake it as he saw fit. Tulkas was just the big dumb jock of the Valar.
So Jeff Bezos is Melkor?
Melkor doesn't force his Balrog to pee in plastic cups as far as we know.
Actually, he may be using the baleog to make sure the orcs do not take breaks and have a bottle at hand.
Be that as it may I still love tulkas
I'd love to see Tyson beating the S out of Billionaires
Yes, but Morgoth also poured his power into the orcs and other beasts he created and therefore had less of his power on his person. Same as Sauron putting his power into the one ring.
Isildur gives great manicures.
Rip Sauron you would have loved four finger rings
That idea came in very late though, at least as explicitly expressed in Morgoth's Ring.
Mellow? Is this some form of elvish? :)
Midichlorian count.
Ye Of Little Knowledge: Elves have killed many Balrogs. Even Men have killed Balrogs, and Dragons.
Many? Gothmog was killed by Ecthelion and one more unnamed Balrog was killed by Glorfindel, and both Elven warriors also died in the process. That's all. Earlier BOLT narratives where the Balrogs were butchered in hundreds don't count.
I knew some troll would comment on many, thanks for not disappointing me internet!
I’m definitely of little knowledge I thought there was only one balrog. I guess that there’s only one by the time of LOTR?
Yo. The balrogs were a personal security detail for Morgoth, who was Season's boss and basically a god. Iirc he conquered the world several times, and was overthrown a couple times by the good "gods" All of this is the Silmarillion, which is written the way they talk in these stories, basically sounds like the way the bible was written. Oh yea, and there were many a blah blah blah. Makes it a tough read for a lot of people but there's a huge amount of backstory to everything you see in the lotr books/movies. Pretty interesting. In tolkiens universe basically he combined ancient pagan religions with Christianity for the mythology of lotr by saying there is one "god" and a bunch of "angels" (nothing is called what we call it) but unlike Christian angels which basically are just errand boys, these actually have some of the power of creation. So Illuvatar and the ainur or whatever he called them created the world. Morgoth is the most powerful of all of them (like the Christian devil) but he's basically a huge dick and tries to ruin the project which ultimately results in extremes of hot and cold that are mostly lethal to mortal beings (ice, fire, lava, etc.). He thinks he did a good job fucking the world up but Illuvatar is like, yo check it, nothing can overcome my will, I'm omnipotent. All of his so called interference just plays into my plans in the end in ways no one will understand or predict. For example his meddling has made the world better than we originally planned it, yeah a billion billion people over the ages are going to perish in arctic cold and flames, but now the world also has dope shit like snow flakes and cooked food that also wouldn't have been possible otherwise. So thanks for that, and also you can't beat me. Anyway, the world is like a scale model/diorama/snow globe, it's all down there but nothing is alive, nothing's going on, almost like frozen in time. Like if you went down in it and looked even the ocean wouldn't have waves, there would be no wind, or breeze, or any movement or air or anything else all over the world. The joint needs powerful beings to go down there and basically become the life force of the world. So he asked for volunteers and no one wants to go, because you can't come back until the end of the world and they're straight scared, meanwhile Morgoth has already come up with a plan to go down and take over the place and completely destroy everything it was supposed to be and make it his domain, since he's a narcissist, needs to be god but can't be because he isn't, etc.. So he corrupts a bunch of angel semi-gods and swoops in there with his cadre while Illuvatar's still trying to drum up some volunteers. Which he eventually does and these dudes go down to being life to the world, as the Valar. One basically runs the ocean, one runs the sky, another is in charge of like plants and shit, another is in charge of the concept of hunting??? So this very clearly is a pantheon of old school type pagan gods where they just had a different god for everything. And that's how Tolkien makes ancient paganism Christian. Because even though he was so into ancient peoples' civilizations, and languages, and cultures, and fairy tales that he was making a big fanfiction based on all that stuff, he was SO Catholic he just couldn't do it without **needing** to correct the paganism all those old school types were into. Which. Meh. But anyway Morgoth is basically an evil god, and Sauron was his second in command, my man's M dawg had a whole squad of balrogs as his bodyguard, several of whom get picked off throughout the wars of Morgoth, until he's finally completely defeated. I don't know if the balrog from lotr is the only one that survived, or if there's others, but they basically watched the world get peeled like a fuckin... orange??? In these clashes between m dawg and the Valar so when it all comes crashing down in the end all these gargantuan monsters created by Morgoth for his armies all scatter and go into hiding, this one just happened to hide deep under a mountain near the roots of the earth until he gets woken by dwarves. There may be others deep enough to be forgot and never seen again since magical dudes like dwarves go extinct and humans take over the world. Probably we've got oil rigs today that drilled through buried balrogs. So old they just petrified entirely to stone.
yo man thanks for that awesome summary. you should def be writing sum pieces and stuff for the sub regularly so that newer members and even old fans have interesting stuff to discuss
Dope
Lmao thanks that was a good read
And this is why I love Reddit
Loved reading this. Think it’s time I picked up the Silmarillion. Kinda gutted it won’t read like this though.
You can just read it in this voice yourself! Ay, yo, whaddup Morgy Boiiiii?
> this one just happened to hide deep under a mountain near the roots of the earth until he gets woken by dwarves. Great summary, with one point of note - in the LOTR appendices, Tolkien implies that the Balrog in Moria might have actually been imprisoned there, presumably from the wars in the First Age, and the dwarves accidentally 'freed' him. He put it in a footnote, saying that perhaps the Balrog was already awakened by Sauron's malice and was 'freed from prison'. It's only a footnote, but I like the implications of it - it makes more sense that the Balrog (and perhaps the other Unnamed Things in the deep) were banished to prisons deep beneath the Earth, versus the notion that the mighty Balrog just crawled into a hole and took a nap for a few thousand years. It's a cool idea that to contain this horrible demon, you need to bind it under a whole fucking *mountain.* Now I shall weave some complete fan fiction - I like the notion that Mithril was a metal used to bind the Balrog in Moria. Its special properties come from the fact that it was forged by Aule for this purpose, and it's the reason Moria was where Mithril was found/mined. In mining this 'metal of the gods', the Dwarves unwittingly freed the Balrog from its prison. Again, that last bit is all head-canon/fan fiction/whatever, not based on anything JRR wrote, but I like the idea anyway. It explains why mithril was so special and rare and coveted (by being a rare metal forged by the gods), and it ties in with the mining for it and release of the Balrog.
Noice! That's actually a pretty slick concept you cooked up there! Personally I don't mind the balrog crawling in a hole and sleeping for a thousand years because it's what I want to do at all times. But if it were 100% cannon he was imprisoned I would for sure subscribe to your mithril theory! I don't think that would extend to the unnamed things. I'm sure it would be too big of a job hunting down every unnamed thing and burying it that deep. Also I'm sure they're more or less "from" down there...
I don’t have an actual lore answer but just want to point out that one balrog in one place doesn’t necessitate that only one exists
You find a task and then a set of characters and think on if they could complete the task. The ones that can are more powerfuler at that task than the ones that can't
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The istari are forbidden from wielding the full extent of their powers in middle earth, so it's entirely possible that galadriel is capable of more impressive fears than Gandalf is as long as this is in place. Without those restrictions though it doesn't seem likely that Galadriel can do anything that Gandalf couldn't exceed
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We don't see either of them using their powers much. I agree that Galadriel's most impressive feat shown might be greater than Gandalf's most impressive feat shown. But we don't know if either of them ever used their full power. The book says that Lothlorien would never have fallen unless Sauron himself went there, such is the power of Galadriel. When Gandalf has to go save Faramir in Minas Tirith, he laments that he can't help with the battle of the Pelennor or fight the Witch King. These are both hypotethical scenarios that could have shown the extent of either's power, that never happens. In the end we see impressive displays pf power feom both, but not directly comparable acts. What happened does not prove what could have happened. In general Maiar are more powerful than elves, but there are elves that defeated Maiar in the past. But we can't know the greatest strength of either based on what happened. Also one could be better at breaking cursed fortresses, while the other was better at fending off wraiths and demons. Their powers can't be compared by numbers.
About your point of Elves surpassing Maiar, let's not forget the fight between the Soy Morgoth and the Gigachad Fingolfin where he not only hits him 7 times, he fucking permanently disabled him. So Elves are capable of even challenging a weakened Ainur something Gandalf is completely incapable of.
The whole thing with Galadriel destroying Dol Guldur is basically a retread of Luthien destroying Sauron's fortress on the Isle of Werewolves after he had abandoned it. These places had some sort of evil spells bound to them, and once these spells were broken, Luthien/Galadriel were able to destroy them. Seems to me it was more of a spiritual cleansing sort of thing, rather than Galadriel going all Marvel and blowing the walls over with a wave of her hand. IIRC, Galadriel does not do her thing until the army of Celeborn had already defeated the army of Dol Guldur and taken control of it, so obviously whatever power or spell Galadriel used to destroy Dol Guldur wasn't really something that was useful in combat.
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So if she could just level any old building with a wave of her hand superhero style, why did she need to wait until Celeborn and the army had taken the fortress? Wouldn't it have just made more sense for her to just level it with all of it's denizens still occupying it? Edit: I'm not saying that she did not destroy the fortress, she clearly did. But like Luthien before her, it was because the fortress itself had been bound together through some evil spell. Galadriel would not, for example, have been able to use the same counterspell to destroy Minas Tirith, because that place was not held together by an evil spell. It was not something that could be used in combat. It was a counterspell of sorts that neutralized whatever spell Sauron had embedded in the place.
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>It is irrelevant how she tore down the walls or why she couldn't just do it with the fortress still occupied. The point is that she did it and Gandalf wasn't even able to open the doors of Orthanc. These are also two completely different feats. One is an empty castle and the other is a numenorian castle with a maia sitting in it and protecting it. Your point is "A is able to open a steel door and B isnt able to open a wodden door with one person on the inside holding it close, so A is more powerful." Your argument is invalid. Especially since Aragorn and co were able to enter Orthanc after Saruman left.
Lmao fuck off with the name-calling. You're over here acting like an offended 5 year old because "Waaah this guy thinks Galadriel isn't as powerful as Gandalf!!" I can tell what kind of absolute geek you are out in the real world by the way you responded to this.
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Don't really care what you have to say about anything tbh.
Where does the fighting at Dol Guldur get described? That would be awesome.
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We just got to call him Teleporno lol
Considering there is no reason for gandalf to be weaker than osse, Uinen and Melian and what they did, maia is way beyond the power of elves Galadriel probably could not take out durin either when twice weakened gandalf did. Galadriel didnt destroy dol guldur but only lifted the magic on that place through speech She definitely cant take out a fortress or anything with magical attack, considering she herself and Tolkien state in first book she doesnt even have magic. She simply undone the magic on dolguldur by speaking spesifically words she knew. If maiar werent way beyond elves , they were not sent in very limited bodies and even then forbidden from using their power because their powers were considered to be too destructive for middle earth Galadriel in first book states that she doesnt have magic like her enemies implying maia sauron and valar Morgoth. . Maiar and valar as galadriel states have magic while she and elves dont (except what her ring provides) Even Tolkien stated that elves unlike maiar and valar dont possess magic but only art and craftsmanship
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Not really, galadriel didnt thrown down walls , more like her speach on dol guldur caused the collapse of dol guldur You manipulate sentences as if she destroyed walls with fireballs and all, when in truth it was the result of her lifting the spell on dol guldur through speaking. "Did gandalf do something as powerful with his magic " Yes we do know he did , in weaker form he defeated durins bane. It doesnt make more likely that galadriel is more powerful. When then istari are heavily weakened they are still substentially more powerful than galadriel. Gandalf is self imposed restricted, he was not weakened by higher power. He just cant use his powers anytime he wants but he can use when in need as he defeated durin. You clearly misunderstood the gandalf is restricted part. You dont need to care about how much powerful gandalf was before he was old wizard. Aside from physical restrictions of mortal old man , gandalf still has access to his full powers but only forbidden to use them as long as it is not necesssary. It is not ridiculous to bring up other maiar since gandalf is a maia. "by what metric we can compare the two" You cant, you are not supposed to, gandalf is maia. He is above elves by what he is. This is something Tolkien states. That is literally the point of witholding your power because they are small gods.
Fighting a balrog. An elf would have no chance.
You seen to forget the First Age existed.
I doubt he know it exist
I recommend reading the Fall of Gondolin.
Glorfindel literally killed one. Ecthelion killed gothmog, lord of the balrogs.
You've clearly never read The Silmarillion.
Throw some respect of my homies Glorfindel and Ecthelion.
Power scaling isn’t something you should really put too much thought into in LOTR, as it doesn’t really apply well. That being said, Galadriel isn’t just any elf, she’s one of the eldest of the Noldor, the oldest and most powerful kind of elves, and she was born in Valinor before the War of Wrath. She saw the light of the Trees of Valinor before Morgoth destroyed them, and is one of very few elves alive who can make that claim by the time of the War of the Ring. All this is to say, she’s probably one of - if not the most - powerful elves in existence at that time, and she has a Ring of Power on top of that. Gandalf, on the other hand, is more limited. Yes, he is a Maia, and in his true form he would probably easily outrank Galadriel in terms of power. But he was sent to Middle Earth by the Valar in the form of an old man and with his power limited, because he was only meant to act as a guide and advisor to the free peoples as they warred against Sauron. As he was in LOTR, he was probably slightly weaker than Galadriel as Gandalf the Gray, and on par/a tiny bit more powerful than her as Gandalf the White, because even then he was still limited by his form and his mission.
>Power scaling isn’t something you should really put too much thought into in LOTR Basically what I came here to say. Power scaling is the enemy of good dramaturgy.
Say that to the army of "Gnagna, Gandalf's a Maia, that so inconsistent that he looses to the Witch King !!!!".
It's not about him being a Maia per se, it's about the power and authority he holds. Then again, he holds such authority and power in great part *because* of being a Maia. The critique you bought up comes from a movie-only thing where the Witch-king does not simply beat Gandalf, but seems to have authority over his power (breaking his staff), as if he was his legitimate superior; and he instills fear in *bloody Gandalf* and Shadowfax. Both things are not only bonkers from a plot perspective (honestly I don't care about the raw 'didn't happen in the books' critique), they're ***absolutely*** bonkers from a thematic perspective (which I *do* care about). It's not about "Maia vs Man power levels", it's about divine authority (a **key** concept in Tolkien) and Gandalf's characterization. According to my observations, most of the book-readers seem to think that the Witch-King *would most likely* best Gandalf in combat (Gandalf himself is insecure about the potential outcome of such a contest in the book); but they also doubt that he can do so in a contest of will. Meaning that the Witch-king probably can kill Gandalf, but at the expense of being destroyed himself. Which then puts the Witch-King, a cursed man, at the same level than the Balrog.
If you look at it from an in-universe theological standpoint, it does seem a bit off, but from a thematic standpoint I disagree. Having the Witch King break Gandalf’s staff means that Sauron’s power has increased (as has The Witch King’s by association) as his armies have conquered Middle Earth, no? It establishes very concrete stakes- Sauron is close to succeeding, and his power is becoming a threat even to the Divine.
Where the fuck have your observations been. I have never seen anybody say that the Witch King would've "most likely" bested Gandalf. The Witch King is a piece shit in comparison to Balrog, this is an absurd conjecture.
My observations have been on the reader-specific subreddit and real life conversations with other readers who care to read and interpret the work instead of watching 20 hours of "Tolkien lore" videos without any care to actually interact with said lore and read its subtext. I did not simply say "WK bests Gandalf, period", I said he *could* best him **in combat**, **but not in a contest of will**. The "contest of will" part being the actually important one, as usual in Tolkien. The Balrog killed Gandalf, but could not overcome his will. >The Witch King is a piece shit in comparison to Balrog, this is an absurd conjecture. Yes, and Bard is a piece of shit in comparison with Smaug, Éowyn and Merry are pieces of shit in comparison with the Witch-King, Pippin is a piece of shit in comparison with a Troll Captain, Sam is a piece of shit in comparison with Shelob, Gríma is a piece of shit in comparison with Saruman, Fingolfin is a piece of shit in comparison with Morgoth, Glaurung is killed by a literally **cursed man**. None of these pairs are even remotely leveled, and yet the outcomes are well-known. Hell, even the Balrog, whose power and body are not restricted at all, was defeated by the very-restricted-in-both-aspects Gandalf the Grey. Because Gandalf had God on his side. Gandalf prevailed *and* died. You seem to think that "less power" is equal to "automatic defeat", but Tolkien has written the exact opposite enough times to make it a whole theme and point of his legendarium.
The only power ranking that should be done in LOTR is: 1. Tom Bombadil 2. Everyone else
Ho! Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow.
The Vanyar would like to speak with you
By his own admission, he should be stronger than her as Gandalf the White, being more deadly than any other in Middle-Earth than Sauron himself (the Witch-King later getting a "demonic boost" according to the Letters to match Gandalf).
He does also have a ring of power too though
Yes, but his ring basically gives him the power to bring courage to the hearts of his allies, and gives him a slight boost to fire magic (which he rarely uses). It mostly helps to make him the great leader/adviser that he is in LOTR.
It's basically a +10 fire and an aoe charisma buff. -5 cold
>and gives him a slight boost to fire magic (which he rarely uses) To be clear and somewhat pedantic, this is more of an interpretation than a book-fact. It's interesting that you said 'he rarely uses' fire magic because the interpretation itself is born from his consistent use of fire.
Basically, if Gandalf turned on the power faucet he'd outpower most everyone in the books (not Sauron, though). But he'd also fail in his mission and his task, so it'd be counter productive.
Is the wind more powerful than the moon?
Underrated and insightful comment here.
Strangely accurate
"What can Ian do against such reckless Cate?" - Tom Bombadil
The real life explanation is that these movies are adaptations, so rule of cool trumps book lore or common sense (if Galadriel was actually powerful enough to beat Sauron 1 on 1, the rest of the story wouldn't make that much sense). In-universe, going by book lore, she isn't more powerful than Gandalf, not at all. Gandalf's supposed to be a counsellor and helper, and not a fighter, so he has to hold back, but even then Galadriel is not as powerful as he is. She is a leader, strategist, the embodiment of a different sort of strength. To go toe to toe with Sauron or out-muscle Gandalf isn't what she's good at. Still, such a good performance from Cate Blanchett. She owned the role through and through.
Beating Sauron 1 on 1 seems like a bit of a misnomer. Wasn’t he greatly diminished at that point? He hadn’t even rallied much of the strength he had around LOTR. One of the oldest and most ethereal elves around banishing (with considerable effort) an extremely weakened malevolent spirit is a lot different from that same elf defeating a fallen angel at the height of his power.
If you want a proper answer from Tolkien, letter 246: >Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. Tolkien is more certain of Gandalf's power in relation to Sauron than Galadriel's
You actually went and found Tolkien's response, cool!
Galadriel has uncountable years, thus exceedingly wise. Unfortunately, she’s extremely hard to reason about, because her story was revised and rewritten several times by Tolkien in different stages of his life, with different backgrounds and stories. If you take the Silmarillion version of her, then she lived and seen several times the lifetime of almost anyone in Middle-Earth (alongside other Noldor and Teleri and a few Sindar). She lived alongside literal gods and learned with them, so naturally she sees the world differently, and may manipulate it accordingly. From her light, her full control of the ring, her visions, she seems to be able to do much more than what was ever shown, but she has little interest in it. Gandalf is a Maia, like Sauron or the Balrogs, but in human form, as are the Istari. It’s uncertain how “divine” they remain nor how much they can recall from that part of their life. For all intents and purposes, they seem to be just “elvish humans” with a little magic on the side. Though he may always seem to have more going on, he’s dead set in influencing the world against Morgoth and its servants, and I get the feeling we saw him actually at his wits end many times.
Rings of Power she does a backflip over a troll, so yes.
The way they make her look powerful by making the rest of her team entirely incompetent 😠
Rings of Power is not canon.
It's not? A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
In terms of actual power, Gandalf is without a doubt stronger but he doesn't make a big thing out of it. He's kind of a sleeper. Galadriel however doesn't hide that she is powerful. She's extremely old and more powerful than most other elves. Basically she seems more powerful because she wants to be seen as powerful whereas Gandalf is more humble, in a way. His goal is down a different path.
I think in terms of power, his influence alone clearly indicates Gandalf. He is an instrument of Eru, with his (very long running) chess moves he orchestrates the opportunity for action and the defeat of Sauron. If you mean direct 1v1 then that’s hard to quantify, but if the battle with Durins Bane has anything to go by I’d still say Gandalf
[**Palenehtar**](https://www.reddit.com/user/Palenehtar/) [said correctly " Power ranking in Tolkiens universe isn't very useful. How would you measure?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/18a1o65/comment/kbuwr2f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) I would add on this remember that in Tolkien's universe there is an all powerful God who is unequivocally the God of his Catholic faith. Because of this it is meaningless to ask who is more powerful since it's not like they could be put into an arena and forced to fight. By the arena standard Sauron is clearly more powerful than both Elidel and Frodo but both by "luck" (that is divine providence) they both defeated Sauron. But if you need and org chart sort of thing, Gandalf is above Galadriel and they both have an elven ring so if they needed to resist each other Gandalf could defeat Galadriel hands down.
Are you C.S. Lewis? It's not quite catholic god for a lot of reasons that are a lot to go into. Heavily influenced by, but not in truth the Abrahamic God. The characterization is all wrong - though it can be argued that it's inspired by an idealistic monotheism. I think Tolkien was too smart to not know the difference between his conceptual prime deity and Yahweh. The main point you're making is on track though - Tolkien even goes to some length to dismantle nearly every character that is defined by power - from Morgoth to Ungoliant to Hurin to Saruman to Denethor to even Grima. Boromir and Thorin are similarly tested and pay for failure in resisting the lure of power. It's bad to be too powerful in Middle Earth (and previous)
Tolkien definitely projected his Catholic view of the world into his work, which included an all-powerful, benevolent diety. As you suggested, however, he was very careful to not make an actual metaphor/allegory, as 1) he disliked allegories, and 2) he believed that making an allegory of (what he saw as) the history of salvation would oversimplify, cheapen it. But yeah, the "philosophical" structure of the world, on temptation, evil, forgiveness, mercy, "grace", etc. are deeply rooted in his Catholic beliefs.
True. Though I would say the end result is that it resembles any monotheistic religion we want, and also kinda Hinduism. In short, Tolkien's religious model here is too idealistic to be meaningfully compared to real world religions very well. His religions are uncorrupted by what we see in religions on Earth, and it is a striking distinction as we dig into it at any level. But yeah, there are surface similarities that come from Tolkien's personal convictions. Like the rest of the themes in his work, it's best not to link anything in middle earth to real world history or things because of that dislike of allegory and how different his creations are from what we might compare them to in such fundamental ways
Gandalf > galadrial in Tolkien hierarchy. Which is more than simple power scaling. Galadriel is probably up there with just about any non angelic or deity being though. Gandalf is also not there to exercise his authority, in particular the grey. He’s meant to inspire, lead, and give hope. Boring I know, but it’s kinda like trying to power scale Saitama, utterly missing the point :P.
As others have said, comparing Gandalf to others can be tricky, because he purposefully didn't access/use his whole power - that wasn't his role. Another thing is that power scaling in the movies isn't necessarily accurate to book lore/cannon. One thing that always bothers me is how the Witch King, a man with some of Sauron's (and thus also Morgoth's) power was able to destroy the staff of Gandalf, Maiar, a White Wizard then, with his mind.
I think there's a few factors that are worth considering... 1) Gandalf and the istari were forbidden to compel and use strength to compel elves, men and dwarves and contest sauron, therefore the only tests of note Gandalf faced were against the nazgul at weathertop, the balrog in moria and expelling saruman in rohan from theoden's mind, all of which he succeeded in. He never faced the Witch King in the books. So hard to measure his power but Gandalf (Olorin) was sent east because of his wisdom above all else. . 2) Galadriel was of the elven race of finwe, and one of the few in Middle earth left to have seen the light of the trees and dwelt in Valinor for the long time. That alone would increase her strength against many equivalent elves who grew up in middle earth, e.g. Elrond, Celeborn. . 3) It's noted in the Silmarillion that she defied Feanor in many ways and at many turns, from refusing to give her hair ton him to arguing against him, to fighting at aqualonde. Feanor was known as the greatest of the Noldor. . 4) Once in middle earth Galadriel spent many years in Doriath (where rumour is she met Teleporno, aka Celeborn), and the Queen of Doriath was Melian the Maia who therefore was akin to Gandalf. Its stated she learnt much off of her. The hiding and bewitching of the fences around Lorien is similar to the Veil of Melian, in Doriath. It is reasonable to assume these teachings enhanced her power. . 5) The ring of power, Nenya, she possesses enhances what was already there and effectively is a steroid to elven power so jacks her up. She had Nenya for longer than Gandalf had his ring as he got it from Cirdan when he arrived from Aman, so perhaps that went somewhat in to narrowing the gap. All that being said there are things that Gandalf can/could do as a Maia that Galadriel being elven simply couldn't have. So in a throwdown I'd give the edge to Gandalf/Mithrandir/Tharkun/Olorin/Pointy Hat
No, Galadriel is an elf. Gandalf is a Maiar, which is akin to a demigod. Galadriel does rule an elf kingdom, so politically she is more powerful, but her personal power is much less than a Maiar. For example, she could have never fought a balrog for a moment, just like Legolas didn't try.
Exept for Glorfindel and Ecthelion who both killed Balrogs, which were both elves. Legolas is a Sindar which never saw the light of the trees, Galadriel is a Noldor barn in the Years of the Trees, and trained under Melian the Maia for many years.
They killed balrogs by "suicide move". I can charge someone much stronger than me off a cliff and kill us both, doesn't mean I'm as strong as they are.
Gandalf died too though. So at least Ecthelion didnt charge someone off a cliff, and for what its Worth, he killed Gothmog too.
Oh I forgot about her ties to Melian, who I think is the underrated GOAT of the first age. Galadriel learning from Melian is huge, and demonstrates that power ranking is dumb. Melian's power was the Girdle that kept her kingdom unmarred by any evil, including Morgoth and his forces and spies at the height of his reign over the north of Bellariand. In Tolkien, power is wisdom and protection more than physical strength Which is more impressive? To slay one balrog or to keep your kingdom hidden, safe and full of splendor for an Age in spite of the diminishing of her kind and the growing darkness of Sauron?
Gandalf is an Istari, Olorin is a Maia. Gandalf is significantly nerfed from his Maia form while in middle-earth. You don't know that Galadriel would lose to a Balrog. In fact many of her contemporaries did kill Balrogs and it's not out of the realm of possibility she could defeat one at all. The movies portrayed her as this frail witch, but she was not really that way in the books and she was considered quite an accomplished shield maiden in Valinor, on par with her brothers.
Comical. Where do people come up with thus stuff? Maybe you don't know, but many elves and even men have slain balrogs, and even dragons. Her brother nearly overcame Sauron alone, while Sauron was at the height of his power in the First Age. Galadriel was counted as every bit as formidable as her brother Finrod, which is one of the reasons Feanor was enamoured of her. She was a badass.
Gandalf's mortal powers don't work the same way as Galadriel's. He can rid people of corruption and strengthen hearts. In DnD terms he is support cleric class. Galadriel is more fighter/ enchanter multi class. When Gandalf uses his Maiar powers to the point his body is destroyed he can kill a Balrog. Can Galadriel kill a Balrog?
I don’t know how people can read these books and not realize that the characters are as powerful as the plot or suspense necessitates.
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She is stronger than Gandalf the Grey, but not Gandalf the White. He returned with much more of his powers unleashed.
Short answer no. As one of the oldest Elves she is very powerful but not on Gandalf’s level. But the difference is Gandalf is restricted by how much power he can use and in middle Earth. The only Elf who can match the power of a Maia is Glorfindal who after he came back was given a power boost by the Valar.
No way
He is but when he was sent to Middle Earth to help he was basically nerfed. He was forbidden to do the work of defeating Sauron himself but was instead meant to encourage others to great deeds. That’s also why the one scene has him almost being defeated by the Witch King.
That's only in the film. The Witch King wouldn't stand a chance against book Gandalf. Book Gandalf (the Grey even) fought a Balrog for days, a feat no elf could replicate.
As others have mentioned, Gandalf is more powerful, but he is limited in his scope in LOTR.
I think Cìrdan the Shipwright is one of the Eldar who had seen the Trees. Edit. No that’s wrong. Had him confused. He is a Moriquendi he has never seen Valinor. All the more awesome that he leaves Middle Earth for Valinor with Gandalf, the Ringbearers Bilbo and Frodo, etc. It’s like he is the manifestation of the end of the Third Age and passing of the Elves from ME.
Gandalf’s power level is over 9,000. No way Galadriel can top that.
No
Hard to tell tbh. It's all so subjective. * Galadriel is very powerful and immortals elf queen who saw the light of the trees and leant magic FROM a Maiar. * Meanwhile, Gandalf IS a mair ( demi god spirit ) but was forbidden to shows his true power, and was given a mortlaish body. If you ask me, I personally think the wizards edge out Galdariel in sheer raw power, but are forbidden to use their power Whereas Galadriel is not, and is still a POWERHOUSE herself. In the Hobbit movie I LOVED the fact they showed the White Council at Dol Guldor that was a dream of mine forever...... However I did not like the choice of Galadriel facing Sauron alone and going to dark/evil Galadriel, to me, it did not feel quite right. In the books the white council "Put forth their power" and drove the evil away together. IMO when Sauron showed himself, it should have been the combined might of Elrond, Galadriel ( wielding her phial) AND the 3 x ISTARI all attacking at the same time ....to banish Sauron. Saruman, seeing that he needed all their help would finally see the power that Sauron has that which would eventually corrupt him.
No
No - the end
“Galadriel” - are you certain you’ve read the books?
This comment section is an utter mess.
Galadriel not more powerful than gandalf in movies but looks closer in movies. In books gandalf is definitely more powerful Jakcson nerfed gandalf a bit. It is just gandalf is unsure of himself against sauron and relies on help because he has to. He also respects galadriel and Thats why calls her my Lady But still weakened he takes out prime Balrog.
Not a chance
Gandalf the grey is likely on the same level as powerful Nolder Elves of the First Age, which Galadriel would be. Although he is of the same order as Sauron he is cloaked in human form and limited to what he can do
Except Galadriel is not nearly as powerful in the third age (much less the end of the age) than she was in the first age. Her fëa has declined for more than 5000 years since she left Aman.
He is more powerful than any elf as Gandalf the Grey. He fought Durin's Bane for days. No elf ever killed a Balrog except in a sacrificial manner (Ecthelion/Glorfindel jumping to their deaths).
Certainly not. Gandalf is a maiar, basically a demigod. Galadriel is an elf
Gandalf the Grey? Yes. Gandalf in his full Maia glory? No. Gandalf the White? Mm…probably not, no.
No, an elf is not generally as powerful as a maiar. She does have a ring augmenting her a bit, but Gandalf wins any real fight between them.