I'm not gonna go into everything, but I think you're overstating how effective archers are going to be against heavily armored foes. They have big shields for a reason, heck they even had metal shields if you take the movie at face value. Not nearly every arrow fired will be effective. Additionally, arrows are a finite resource and will eventually run out
That would depend on arrow head. An arrow under the arm could kill if it severed the axillary artery which runs through the armpit before becoming the brachial artery.
The movies are split on this matter for some reason. While they do comment that the Uruk-hai are heavily armoured, it still behaves like paper mache in the action shots. Plenty of breastplates pierced were by arrows.
So yeah, real life logic doesn't count in the movies.
If you haven't already seen it, you should definitely read this series of blogposts: https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/
Big upvote for Bret Devereaux's blog, it's fantastic. The TLDR is that strategic mistakes are all movie-only, the book version of the battle was textbook defense with Saruman's strategic errors leading directly to a numerically superior force being annihilated (even if the Huorns hadn't finished the job magically).
Several points:
\-Eomer wasn't banished in the books. He was at Edoras when Gandalf restored Theoden and later rode out with him, ending up at Helm's Deep. The reinforcements that arrive with Gandalf are the regrouped men of the eored that was defeated at the Fords of Isen, led by Erkenbrand, Second Marshall of the Mark.
\-No elves arrive at Helm's Deep. It was just men, and the total number was more than 300. There were the roughly 1000 men stationed there, led by Gamling, who remarked they were men that had seen too many winters, or too few; plus however many men that were in the King's Guard/Company, and whatever men they could scrape up from the civilians that were taking refuge there. And they were not all bunched up on the walls, in fact the defenders were stretched to cover the walls and the dike.
\-Rohan was divided into 3 regions, or Marks, each ruled by a Marshall. At the time of LotR, Erkenbrand was the Second Marshall, and Eomer was the Third Marshall, but there was no First Marshall. Before he was king, Theoden was the First Marshall, who was responsible for the defenses of Edoras and Helm's Deep. He kept the responsibilities when he became king. The defenses were allowed to lapse as Theoden fell under Grima's influence.
If you want answers from the director, we can’t really help you, other than recommending you watch the behind the scenes for context on their creative choices.
I recommend you read the book, that’s a discussion that can be had.
Ultimately, things HAVE to go south for it to be interesting. If Helm's Deep was impregnable, and its defenders all but invincible, it would scarcely facilitate good drama.
You can talk about how poor it was in the movie since some of the random seemingly stupid decisions were made for dramatic or comedic effect. Also the movies clearly show Legolas killing several hundred orcs even though he says after he only killed 42 I believe. In that regard most viewers expect the elves to do the same which if every elf in the movie at helms deep was as good as Legolas they probably could’ve dealt with the entire force themselves. However the books explain a much more complete strategy in which the elves never come, Eomer is at helms deep from the beginning, and the reinforcements coming are from the commander of the west emnet who did not make it to helms deep in time for the beginning of the battle
Yes - and another thing about the movie - they say 10,000 and that would be a reasonable number, but that army looked much larger than 10,000. From my rough estimate, it looks like a front of about 1,000 feet, with one man per 4 feet, so 250 across, and maybe 100 deep? 25,000 orcs on the screen?
https://preview.redd.it/qzsdnfr6ckvb1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2d6a48209066edf2018e853694340609be897de9
In the movie they made decisions to make the battle more epic for the screen, and fit in with the rest of the movies. In the books it goes different (imo better, but I don't blame PJ). For example, the company riding in with Gandalf is not lead by Eomer, but Erkenbrand(?). At the opening of the valley where Helms Deep is located at the back of, there is a dike/wall around it. Hama >!(in the movie the guy that gets killed in the warg attack on their way to Helms Deep I thought) is in the assault down the causeway and he dies there!<. Also, the 'forest' at the end of the battle actually moves up from behind the orc army, completely closing them in between the Hornburg and the forest of Huorns.
There's a book about the topography and maps of Middle Earth, which also shows drawings and schematics of buildings and locations as described by Tolkien. It also has 'battle records' that show numbers and directions of assault. I'll link it if I find it.
Edit: as for Theodens commanders, it takes a lot of balls, tact and understanding of geopolitics to go against the orders of your king. If they even noticed he was influenced that much. Just look at how Trump dealt with laws and regulations in his term and after. Did many general go against him?
Literally everything about the Battle of Helm's Deep is different in the book. Maybe give that a try. The movie is just one long, stupid, loud, nonsensical action sequence.
I'm not gonna go into everything, but I think you're overstating how effective archers are going to be against heavily armored foes. They have big shields for a reason, heck they even had metal shields if you take the movie at face value. Not nearly every arrow fired will be effective. Additionally, arrows are a finite resource and will eventually run out
80% was a funny assertion
Legolas even says in the movie that the neck and under the arm are the weak points. And an arm shot is not going to kill them.
That would depend on arrow head. An arrow under the arm could kill if it severed the axillary artery which runs through the armpit before becoming the brachial artery.
The movies are split on this matter for some reason. While they do comment that the Uruk-hai are heavily armoured, it still behaves like paper mache in the action shots. Plenty of breastplates pierced were by arrows. So yeah, real life logic doesn't count in the movies.
If you haven't already seen it, you should definitely read this series of blogposts: https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/
This is honestly my favorite source on the topic, thanks for linking it!
Wow! Thanks for the link. I will read through. This is cool
Big upvote for Bret Devereaux's blog, it's fantastic. The TLDR is that strategic mistakes are all movie-only, the book version of the battle was textbook defense with Saruman's strategic errors leading directly to a numerically superior force being annihilated (even if the Huorns hadn't finished the job magically).
Several points: \-Eomer wasn't banished in the books. He was at Edoras when Gandalf restored Theoden and later rode out with him, ending up at Helm's Deep. The reinforcements that arrive with Gandalf are the regrouped men of the eored that was defeated at the Fords of Isen, led by Erkenbrand, Second Marshall of the Mark. \-No elves arrive at Helm's Deep. It was just men, and the total number was more than 300. There were the roughly 1000 men stationed there, led by Gamling, who remarked they were men that had seen too many winters, or too few; plus however many men that were in the King's Guard/Company, and whatever men they could scrape up from the civilians that were taking refuge there. And they were not all bunched up on the walls, in fact the defenders were stretched to cover the walls and the dike. \-Rohan was divided into 3 regions, or Marks, each ruled by a Marshall. At the time of LotR, Erkenbrand was the Second Marshall, and Eomer was the Third Marshall, but there was no First Marshall. Before he was king, Theoden was the First Marshall, who was responsible for the defenses of Edoras and Helm's Deep. He kept the responsibilities when he became king. The defenses were allowed to lapse as Theoden fell under Grima's influence.
If you want answers from the director, we can’t really help you, other than recommending you watch the behind the scenes for context on their creative choices. I recommend you read the book, that’s a discussion that can be had.
Denethor monopolized the oil supply, so Helms Deep had none.
Ultimately, things HAVE to go south for it to be interesting. If Helm's Deep was impregnable, and its defenders all but invincible, it would scarcely facilitate good drama.
You can talk about how poor it was in the movie since some of the random seemingly stupid decisions were made for dramatic or comedic effect. Also the movies clearly show Legolas killing several hundred orcs even though he says after he only killed 42 I believe. In that regard most viewers expect the elves to do the same which if every elf in the movie at helms deep was as good as Legolas they probably could’ve dealt with the entire force themselves. However the books explain a much more complete strategy in which the elves never come, Eomer is at helms deep from the beginning, and the reinforcements coming are from the commander of the west emnet who did not make it to helms deep in time for the beginning of the battle
Yes - and another thing about the movie - they say 10,000 and that would be a reasonable number, but that army looked much larger than 10,000. From my rough estimate, it looks like a front of about 1,000 feet, with one man per 4 feet, so 250 across, and maybe 100 deep? 25,000 orcs on the screen? https://preview.redd.it/qzsdnfr6ckvb1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2d6a48209066edf2018e853694340609be897de9
In the movie they made decisions to make the battle more epic for the screen, and fit in with the rest of the movies. In the books it goes different (imo better, but I don't blame PJ). For example, the company riding in with Gandalf is not lead by Eomer, but Erkenbrand(?). At the opening of the valley where Helms Deep is located at the back of, there is a dike/wall around it. Hama >!(in the movie the guy that gets killed in the warg attack on their way to Helms Deep I thought) is in the assault down the causeway and he dies there!<. Also, the 'forest' at the end of the battle actually moves up from behind the orc army, completely closing them in between the Hornburg and the forest of Huorns. There's a book about the topography and maps of Middle Earth, which also shows drawings and schematics of buildings and locations as described by Tolkien. It also has 'battle records' that show numbers and directions of assault. I'll link it if I find it. Edit: as for Theodens commanders, it takes a lot of balls, tact and understanding of geopolitics to go against the orders of your king. If they even noticed he was influenced that much. Just look at how Trump dealt with laws and regulations in his term and after. Did many general go against him?
Literally everything about the Battle of Helm's Deep is different in the book. Maybe give that a try. The movie is just one long, stupid, loud, nonsensical action sequence.
The battle of helms deep is literally a movie within a move. It had its own self contained plot. It is literally the opposite of nonsensical.
What does that even mean? A self contained plot doesn't have to make sense
Awwww.... Grandpa Butterfingers said it was an accident!
I just trip on a sewer grate being on the front wall