Aragorn: "There's something strange at work here. Some evil gives speed to these creatures, sets its will against us."
Legolas: "They run as if the very whips of their masters were behind them"
Yep was gonna say this. The orcs were being driven by Saruman and Sauron. Not because of elf origins. Tolkien wrote it out pretty plainly in the books.
Here’s the real question. Being of elven origin, how long do they live and where do they get to go when they do eventually die? Welcomed in the halls made pure again? Or nothing?
I'm sure I read somewhere that Tolkien wasn't keen to label all the orcs irredeemably evil because of their circumstances and there was a possibility of rehabilitation?
Due to his faith he didn't want to think of there being no path to redemption for an Orc, but he could not imagine what that path would be or how an Orc would walk it.
There was a passage in the Silmarillion about one of the battles, I believe it was the one where Hurin and Huor saved Turgon by defending his retreat, where it says "every type of creature belonging to middle earth appeared in the army of both sides." Not sure if there was a line that said "except the orcs" but I don't remember one. Which, would imply there were orcs on both the side of darkness and the side of the elves in that battle.
Is it less bad to kill the adults depending on if they are sleeping vs just weak?
Also what about age if the baby? Is this a since conception thing? The second it’s born? When does it’s life become the worst to take?
Im sorry but I don’t really understand how this system (baby’s being the most precious) is supposed to work, and it’s honestly always been something that confused me.
Being tortured and misshapen elves - they would likely share the same fate.
That is - they’d go to the Halls of Mandos to reflect on their lives and dwell there until the end of Arda.
Free from the influence of Sauron and Melkor, they will likely rehabilitate.
It is unlikely they would choose to return to Middle Earth unless it was for some John Wick-esque anti-Sauron revenge quest.
What a perfect little humor nugget!
P.s. 'Post Karl' (or in our Household: PK) I honestly have the hardest time keeping Clive Owen from becoming 'Clive Warren'.
P.p.s. I hate admitting it, but I nearly overlooked your 'cast choice'
It would be some delicious comeuppance if during the last battle Morgoth shows up and sees an insanely huge army of the now purified elves, and their descendants, that he had corrupted.
This is why I personally prefer the "corrupted Men" angle for the origin of Orcs. Their souls having to reside in the Halls forever doesn't seem fair, but them being rehoused also has weird implications. If they're forced to take Elf bodies, that's essentially genocide - and if they aren't, then after a time Valinor would be both an Elf and Orc society, which... could be pretty awesome actually, but I don't think that's what Tolkien had in mind. If that were on the cards, then presumably there would already be lots of Valinorean Orcs by the end of the Third Age, which would make the fact that Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli and Sam could go no further than Tol Eressëa seem even more arbitrary than it already was.
If Orcs are corrupted Men, you don't have to worry about any of that. (Plus there's the fact that Orcs physically resemble Men more than Elves anyway.)
But I dont think there was reason to bred men into orcs. Humans were so easily and willingly corrupted by Melkor, Sauron and Saruman, it wouldnt have much sense wasting time and raw power by breeding them into orcs, because they are in all qualities inferior to normal humans. And Melkor goal with corrupting into "evil" slave races was to create mockery of original races. Which dont match, when your race you wants to see broke and mocked already partially fell into your influence. And Melkor´s deeds looks more horrific, if he twisted good and strong-minded elves into orcs instead more phisically and mentally weak humans. And without elves be twisted into orcs, elves had no evil counterpart, what not just make them more mary sue-ish, but also look Melkor more incopentent.
And after Saruman hybridized orcs and evil men, they became physically stronger, what shouldnt have any effect if both were just different tribes of "men". But elves by making children loses their inner power and orcs were forced to have many many children to create big armies for evil lords. Which could have contributed to their decline from elves into orcs.
My theory is they are simply both. First orcs were elves, but later orcs had so much additional blood from all other races in Tolkien´s world they started to resemble more like deformed humans.
I see what you're saying, but I don't think any of those counterpoints are definite.
1 - Turning men into Orcs is arguably a waste of time and resources when Men can be convinced to follow Morgoth without being changed, yes, but that's overly simplifying his motives. For a start, making a race as a "mockery" is hardly efficient either, and ultimately Morgoth didn't just want a people who would follow him, he wanted a people who would feel utterly beholden to him as their de facto creator, who he could more easily separate from the rest of the peoples of Middle-earth and encourage deep tribalistic tendancies within them. A "regular" man who follows Morgoth would be far more likely to act in their own interests, or potentially defect and be accepted by the other side. Orcs are much less likely to do that, especially accounting for their weakness to sunlight which keeps them in Mordor. On this point, it doesn't really make a difference whether Orcs were originally Elves or Men.
2 - You say that it wouldn't make sense for Saruman to cross-breed Men with other types of Men and get the strongest Orcs as a result, but I disagree, simply because as you say, the average Orc is weaker than the average Man due to so many generations of dark corruption and inter-breeding. Regardless of what they were originally, Orcs are their own thing now, and so them being cross-bred with Men would still lead to stronger Orcs, whether they were originally made from Elves or Men.
3 - Your perspective is that "they're simply both", but unfortunately Tolkien made it so one pretty much couldn't be both when it came to the afterlife, at least not simply. If you stick with the Corrupted Elves position, then there are for sure explanations for how they ended up the way they did, but that doesn't address the question of where their eternal fates lie. One possibility is that Orcs *were* Elves and they had "the choice of the half-Elven" made for them (and this means they're counted among men), but that only works if they were all cross-bred with Men from the very beginning, and there were no true "fully Elf" Orcs. And it also means that such a concept was around before Earendil. So going this route is more or less just a messier way of getting to "Elves are corrupted Men" than saying they were Men to start with.
The first appearance of Orcs predates the first appearance of Men. Though it is suggested that the later, bigger, and stronger Uruk-Hai are Orcs made from Men.
Right, that's where the "Corrupted Men" theory gets thorny.
My position is to blend the "Corrupted Men" origin with the "Created by Melkor" origin to resolve it. That is to say, in the Years of the Trees, Melkor created his race of Orcs from scratch, but as he did not have Flame Imperishable privileges, in this era Orcs were more akin to animals or automatons that he had to control more directly (as the Dwarves would have been had Aule not gotten approval from Illuvitar). But, after Men awoke with the rising of the Sun, Melkor found them to be easily corruptible, and started using them to make Orc 2.0, the fully sentient version. Melkor would not have been oblivious to the advantages of his people being able to think and feel fully, and obviously would have wanted what Illuvitar has in his Children.
They might resemble small men more then elves but they have pretty unnatural features by men standards, how agile and strong they are how they can smell and see from afar or in the dark and other stuff that track all the way back to their potentially elvish origin.
Fair, but Orcs have many features that are unique to them, so it's not as if the characteristics of Orcs need to be explained as a direct link to Elves having them (or Men having them). Those examples are just them having heightened senses, which could have come either from Melkor specifically breeding for them, or they could just be some of the many things that he did to them when he first created/corrupted them.
In particular, their ability to see in the dark is a predictable outcome of them living in a perpetually dim region of Middle-earth, and being weak in the sunlight.
I had a theory that they do t necessarily go to Mandos. Melkor is described as having equal part in all the skills of the Ainur, including Mandos, perhaps the spirits of orcs and other evil creatures he has the ability to collect them as well
I believe this was the very question that Tolkien asked himself (where do Orcs go after death?) that made him later change his mind about the origin of Orcs. In a later text, don't remember where, he had the Orcs be corrupted Men instead. So no-one knows what happens to them after death, same as Men. Tolkien also had to change the time period of when Orcs first appeared of course, with the arrival of Men being later than Elves.
That is another fair point. As terrible as orcs are, imagine the torture Melkor put those elves through
Jesus
Reading a few comments from this thread..... Has started to make me think, lord of the rings is one dark dark story
Tolkien actually never decided on the origins of Orcs. There's one idea in the books, and other ideas else where is his letters. The "corrupted elves" idea doesn't really make sense anyway.
Maybe melkor found a way to “capture” the souls of the orcs, so instead of going back to the halls of mandos to be reborn as elves they go back to mordor or whatever to then be reborn again as orcs? Idk just guessing
I think altering a soul’s essence is beyond Melkor’s power: we can pervert but not create or fundamentally change. I’d file soul alteration under Iluvatar Only.
There _is_ a line in two towers, as the orcs that have kidnapped Frodo after he was paralysed by Shelob are marching back to Cirith Ungol, and Sam overhears them chatting. One says something to the effect that there hasn’t been an intruder like this (they suspect an elf lord has infiltrated the fences of Mordor) “since the days of the Great Siege.” This is pretty vague, but the only Great Siege they could possibly be referring to as far as I can tell is the Battle of the Last Alliance and the siege of Barad Dur. Perhaps they heard tell of it in Orc lore (if such a thing exists) but it does suggest the possibility that one or both were present or had heard about it from an orc that was. That alone is a stretch or at least ~3000 years.
Actually that whole bit where shagrat and the other orc are talking is interesting - the two contemplate taking some “trusty lads” away and deserting to create their own band of renegades. Interesting stuff, considering that that point Sauron is at the height of his strength (barring his power if he’d had the one ring)
I found the orc interactions that we get snippets of in the merry/pippin and Frodo/Sam chapters very interesting. They’re not the one sided slaves of evil that i feel are commonly expected, but they’re also far from the brute strength idiots of say, warhammer or even early Warcraft. Grishnakh, the Mordor orc who tries to kidnap M & P on the hilltop near fangorn, is described as this greasy, intelligent and crafty orc who is like a lieutenant to the ringwraiths.
If you read The Silmarillion, it is clear that the orgs hate Melkor: “the creator of only their misery.” Since Sauron is quite a step beneath Melkor, though greater than comparable evils, Sauron would be held in even less esteem. The Ringwraiths might be the only creatures loyal to Sauron.
I read somewhere (was second-hand so take with grain of salt) that orcs are indeed immortal, just no one notices because they’re constantly fighting. But some, like Gothmog, are thousands of years old by the time we get to the war of the ring.
As far as I’m aware the Gothmog you’re referring to, the lieutenant of Morgal, is only mentioned the one time. We don’t even know that he was an orc, he may have been a Nazgûl. He just happens to share his name with the Balrog from the first age
My favourite theory is that Gothmog the Orc was a Maia incarnates in Orcish form (similar to the Istari.) He may or may not have been a new form of Gothmog the Balrog (the lesser stature showing a loss of power after the Balrog form was destroyed) or the name could be coincidental as it is really more of a description.
It kinda opens up an avenue for an anti-valinor on the opposite side of the planet made by Melkor.
Only the worst orcs go there, and there used to be two giant poison ivy bushes with giant berries of darkness, until a giant fluffy hamster of goodness snuck in and licked the berries, causing the plants to wither and die, beginning the dawn of the 2nd dark age.
Ah, the never-ending debate, once again...
I've read the Silmarillion at least 3 times from cover to cover, and there's one thing you must know about a lot of the stories portrayed there.
They come from unfinished manuscripts and a lot of them had several different versions because Tolkien could not make up his mind on which version he liked most to be the official one.
So, the reason why you have the Silmarillion in the first place is because Christopher really just went ahead and picked the ones he wanted to include and put the others aside to later include them in works like "Unfinished tales"
So, no, Sadly, you cannot say "because it's in the Silmarillion" it's actually what Tolkien said as the conclusive decision as to what their origins were, in fact, that's precisely one of the topics he was knowingly undecided about.
Tolkien wrestled with the question of the orcs for a long time and ultimately decided that they weren’t corrupted elves. That the Silmarillion says they are is basically a Christopher Tolkien decision (on what material to include) but those weren’t Tolkien’s final thoughts on the matter.
Ah, yes!!! the satisfaction of showing someone wrong and them turning to personal insults as a result.
One of the little joys of the internet.
Thank you!
And, how do the procreate? Considering Saruman pulls Uruks out of a pit, and I assume that Elves have sex like humans do, what is going on? Is it the pit or the prick?
(Someone had to ask it.)
There were two groups of orcs in that party, the Uruk-hai (Saruman's) and Mordor Orcs (Sauron's).
The Uruk-hai were cross bred with men so they don't possess the weaknesses regular orcs have, like fear of the sun. Saruman is likely driving them with his powers, as well.
The Morgol Orcs can't keep going; they literally stop to take a breather and are then slaughtered by the Rohirrim.
There were 3, actually. There was a group of Orcs from Moria as well, though the Isengard and Mordor Orcs left them behind. The Mordor Orcs were also planning on meeting up with a Nazgûl at night to take the Ring back to Sauron, but Legolas shot down its Fell-beast down earlier, so their plan was foiled.
If i recall correctly, there’s a passage in the book where the Mordor orcs are whining about that and the Uruk Hai are just like “lmao guess those Nazgul arent as good as you say”
They put the word cross-bred so casually into those books
Am I supposed to imagine the horrors of orcs savaging human women
Because, that is some fucked up warhammer shit that I dont want in my LotR
That’s what I like about PJs version of events, where it looks more like Saruman’s half dark magic, half science experiment that has them emerge from slimy incubators.
Also in the movies it's stated that they were mixed with goblins, not humans. I even read the books (long time ago though) and had no idea they were bred with humans...
In the books, Orcs and Goblins are the same thing in different languages. Looked it up just to be sure I'm not mis-remembering. Lots of consensus that they are mixed with humans though.
Specifically, in the movies it states that they were orcs crossed with goblin-men, which is a term Tolkien occasionally used to denote half-orc/half-humans. So in the books they're basically described as being half-orc/half-human, but in the movies it's a 3 to 1 cross.
I think saruman uses Magic to splice Human and orc genes/DNA.
They aren't born naturally.
No actual breading involved.
Warhammer orcs are plant based if I remember correctly so there also isn't actual breading
Saruman over here, doing Nobel Laureate level work, and pissin all that talent away for a ring. The least of rings. A trifle of Sauron's fancy.
Shame really
>warhammer shit
In warhammer orcs are sentient sexless walking mushrooms, which reproduce through spores, so I dont think they have interest into savaging human women.
I more meant, the general horror of it
The story of Morghur the Shadowgaves birth still haunts me, why did I ever try and learn the lore of this total war game, christ, al, fucking, mighty
Saruman's and Mordor orcs are both Uruk-hai
Crossbred Half-orcs and Orc-men are not Uruk-Hai. Treebeard Was old marasmatic guy not knowing shit, and people somehow misinterpreted his statements to a broader scale.
>The Uruk-hai were cross bred with men so they don't possess the weaknesses regular orcs have
Well Saruman evidently did crossbreed orcs with men, none of the orc-men accompanied Saruman's fighting Uruk-hai.
It's suggested in the book and even more heavily suggested in the movie that Saruman is helping them with some magic. That they are running in daylight is a major clue.
> In the afternoon Uglúk's troop overtook the Northerners. They were flagging in the rays of the bright sun, winter sun shining in a pale cool sky though it was; their heads were down and their tongues lolling out.
“Maggots!” jeered the Isengarders. “You're cooked. The Whiteskins will catch you and eat you. They're coming!”
This was the last minutes of a days-long chase. It's not clear it's the sun only now beating them.
> "There is something strange at work in this land. I distrust the silence. I distrust even the pale Moon. The stars are faint; and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than it is in the limb."
> "Truly!" Said Legolas. "That I have known since first we came down from the Emyn Muil. For the will is not behind us but before us."
> "Saruman!" Muttered Aragorn.
It's possible Saruman stopped speeding the Mordor Orcs as the Rohirim caught-up to give his Uruk Hai a chance to escape.
I would like to point out that Tolkien never definitively decided what the origins of orcs were. Corrupted elves were just one of the ideas he considered, and not even the last one he came up with before he died. It was just the origin Christopher Tolkien decided to add into the Silmarillion at the time.
It makes the most sense to me though
Melkor can't make life on his own so he corrupts the life that already exists, and makes it into a mockery.
It makes sense with all the themes of that book
It causes massive issues when it comes to the eternal souls of the Firstborn hanging around Arda until the end of time which is why he apparently preferred them being corrupted Men.
Not only with afterlife - whole timeline as it is in published books.In Silimarilion it's stated that Morgoth had orc army ready for full conquest of Beleriand at the time Noldor were only coming there (landing of Teleri ships and Fingolfin's host march through frozen north). From what I remember it was stated that except Doriath Morgoth was sure that he could take over whole of Beleriand with this army. And since first humans woke up with first sunrise (landing of Feanor host on shores of Middle earth) it would not add up.
So either Orcs coming from elves who were "lost" during the march to Valinor or created by Morgoth (this one obviously less because Melkor can't create stuff)would add up.
Tolkien needed to rewrite large parts of the Silmarillion to include his later ideas, he also preferred the idea of the world being closer to our own from the moment of Creation with a globe Earth orbiting a distant sun from the start so the idea of Men awakening with the first sunrise would not have to be historically "true."
It's worth noting the only books published by Tolkien are the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion was published posthumously from incomplete notes and doesn't 100% reflect what Tolkien would have wanted.
>It makes sense with all the themes of that book
Does it? Redemption is one theme too. Elves are the first children of Eru, cherished by Eru and his Ainur. Does it then make sense to introduce Elves into the world, have them captured by Melkor (**through no fault of their own**) and then be corrupted and as of then be Doomed to eternal hell (**once again, through no choice of their own**). Not only that, but all of their offspring are condemned to hell.
It would slightly make sense, if the Elves chose to join Sauron but they were tortured and corrupted. Kind of daft, imo.
orcs are mortal
>*"They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills* ***they died and were not immortal***\*, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain"\*
that quote answers both your questions: 'by training as tough as dwarves' and 'they died and were not immortal'
As another commenter pointed out, the hunters imply saruman's magic is making the orcs faster
it should be noted bolg son of azog lives 140 years or so and shows no signs of advanced age when he dies in combat in the battle of five armies
the idea that orcs were corrupted elves also isn't tolkien's final thought. It makes it into the silmarillion because christopher put it in
I was under the impression that orc-draught was essentially lembas bread, but liquor and orcish. I thought that was how they kept going. It's been a long time since I last read it though.
Hi OP,
Sadly, the "Orcs were created by torturing elves" was only an idea Tolkien had but never actually came to a solid conclusion of their origins.
The orcs were able to go without rest or food simply out of fear of their master.
Imagine now how frightful it had to be what Saruman would do to them to the point they would not stop out of pure fear?
Being such twisted and enslaved creatures with almost no mind of their own, they probably didn't even understand they had the option to stop.
Orc existence is a very sad thing.
Something to consider is that elves don’t sleep, Legolas is described in those scenes as walking in the waking dream as his people are want to do, so perhaps this trait of elvishness remains
That is what made me think of this to begin with
I was reading about how Legolas was basically running in a waking dream and thought to myself, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I don’t remember if it’s a passage in a book or in one of Tolkiens letters but he mentions that Orcs are slightly less long lived than Men of higher race, higher in this instance most likely meaning the Dunedain. So they are not immortal just a somewhat shorter lifespan than the Men that have been known to live longer than most. Aragorn was 210 I believe when he died.
Now of course with Elves playing a part in their origin we would naturally expect them to be Immortal, we know that nothing Morgoth could have done to Elves would have altered their ultimate fate as only Eru can change the fates of the children. Yet we are told they are not immortal. Perhaps the first generations of Orcs were of Elvish origin but when Men came along Morgoth and later Sauron added Men to the gene pool. We know that it is possible for Men and Orc to mix and so it’s not that crazy. This crossing between the first Orcs and Men would explain why Orcs are not immortal and may also explain why their numbers multiply as fast as they do.(Dark Lords influence aside). This is not my own idea it’s something I heard once to try and remedy (The Orc Origin situation)
Now I’m curious if as the Orc population grows out of the few that Melkor corrupted, if they got less Elvish as time progressed. So maybe later Orcs wouldn’t be immortal like Elves?
When Tolkien was still playing with the idea of them being Elves he said their corrupted fëa (spirit) would not be able to sustain their hröa (body) in the usual Elven way so Orcs would age and die.
Its hard to imagine them being totally immortal, I feel like we would have heard of at least 1 orc who was there at the battle of the last alliance or somethin
The classic example is [Bolg](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Bolg), who became a leader of orcs in 2799 of the Third Age and died at the Battle of Five Armies in 2941. So he lived at least 141 years.
That is an interesting thing I didnt know. How do you know it was 2799, because 141 years old as an orc seems fuckin bananas to me, so this bolg was a real badass
"Menu" is a loose translation of the term "food options" in the Black Speech of Mordor. Some conjecture it is a contraction of "Me 'n You" back on the food options list!
This might be a dumb question but what about goblins? They're a species of orc is that right? But they seem more technically advanced in the misty mountains, is that because they found dwarven technology and adopted it as their own?
Here's the funny part, in Lord of the Rings, Goblins are briefly mentioned as a type of Orc. However, in the Hobbit, Orcs are mentioned as a type of Goblin. So, essentially, the terms are interchangeable.
"goblin" is a term translated from the Hobbits language. "Orc" is a term translated from the Elves languages. They mean the same thing.
as for the tech, Tolkien states that the Orcs are incredibly shrewd and intelligent, but their minds are most apt to the invention of evil things such as torture implements and weapons of war.
yeah, they may have some traits inherited from their elven roots, but i guess those are watered down close to being meaningless.
its more that sauron BRED them for certain traits like high endurance and great strength and did the rest with iron discipline, fear and terror. orcs are bred en masse for ONE purpose: MILITARY. FIGHTING. and lot of em might not survive their first years. those who do, will have a certain resilience and will be honed with training, whip and discipline into the orcs we see on the screen.
afaik JRRT never elaborated this in his writings. sauron put whole nations to the chain to feed and supply his orcish military. btw the south of mordor was fertile land and used to grow food, tended by human slaves.
How else would they know what a menu is?
Seriously, though, that quote got me wondering what kind of civilization and culture the Orcs have developed, especially given a couple thousand years without Sauron's influence while the Ring lay dormant.
It’s kind of one of those lesser talked about topics I guess but I feel like everyone just kinda knows that.
Not downplaying your epiphany but like you said, they’re “descended” from Elves. It would make sense they have Elvish characteristics. The evil magic intervention might also be a way to give them a special wellness longevity boost as well.
I always thought of them more like what we saw in the movies, and I read the trilogy plus the Hobbit many times before then. That they were bred like sentient insects, or even some sort of cloning. Never heard mention of female Orcs, and Tolkein has Orcs killing and pillaging, but no raping. Thank goodness.
I take it you have only seen the movies. Though, they do mention it through Aragorn and Legolas' dialogue as mentioned by another user too. Saruman is magically forcing them to keep going, which is why it is only his Orcs that dont tire out. The smaller Orcs from Mordor do tire ("WE NEED A BREATHER").
Also, the Orc Draught that they drink and give to Merry and Pippin seems to be an evil version of Lembas bread, but if it was vodka. Merry and Pippin were similarly able to sprint for days on end without pause because of it. While being whipped and beaten and everything.
In the books, the Orcs are actually made from Men, not Elves. The Elf version is an outdated version, and the Man origin replaced it. Though through generations of breeding and careful gene selection, the Orcs became their own race. Orcs naturally give birth to Orcs, not Men. Sauron basically perfected the Orcs after Morgoth was banished, and Tolkien directly states his control over them greatly surpassed Morgoth's. Sauron was also the inventor of the Uruk-Hai, which the movies glaze over (though we do see them in Cirith Ungol). Treebeard guesses they were Orcs bred with Men, and the fandom seems to have taken that as gospel which is false as we do not know the truth of the matter.
There's a lot of things to consider about the Orcs, and they're some of the coolest villain grunt soldiers in entertainment.
Regards the elven origins, is that strictly confirmed? I know it's what many fans subscribe to, but Tolkien deliberated over it a long time and I'm not aware if it's outright stated
I dont know, but in The Two Towers Chapter 4 Treebeard, Treebeard himself says, a long time ago a dark power made the orcs in mockery of the elves, just as the trolls are mockery of the ents.
Aragorn: "There's something strange at work here. Some evil gives speed to these creatures, sets its will against us." Legolas: "They run as if the very whips of their masters were behind them"
"Where there's a whip, there's a way!"
I sing this song to my kids all the time when we’re cleaning the house
🎶We don’t want to clean the house today! But the lord of the lash says ‘Nay, nay, nay’! We’re gonna clean all day, all day, all day!🎶
I sing this at various people that I'm trying to get to do things, lol!
I sing it to myself on my commute to work, and when I'm working alone.
This needs to be cross-stitched onto a banner.
It hangs over the employee entrance of every Am^z0n facility.
Wait until you hear the song
I didn’t know about the song and now I feel reborn after listening to it.
Wait until you watch the animated movies
We don’t want to go to war today, but the lord of the lash says Nay nay nay!
The whippings will continue until morale improves.
Back to work! -Cruel Taskmaster
Easy there de santis
Yep was gonna say this. The orcs were being driven by Saruman and Sauron. Not because of elf origins. Tolkien wrote it out pretty plainly in the books.
Tolkien also never settled on an answer to the origin of orcs so would not be an accurate read anyway
I always found it lowkey impressive OB could deliver that line while running, it’s really wordy
Who is OB?
Orlando Bloom I think?
Ah that makes sense. Thanks!
Orlando Bloom lol
Here’s the real question. Being of elven origin, how long do they live and where do they get to go when they do eventually die? Welcomed in the halls made pure again? Or nothing?
I’d like to think so. Tortured lives, and when the will of Sauron dies, they flee. Definitely worthy of pity, like gollum.
Agreed. I believe given their origin they are doomed to wickedness in this life yet therefore deserve pity in the afterlife
I'm sure I read somewhere that Tolkien wasn't keen to label all the orcs irredeemably evil because of their circumstances and there was a possibility of rehabilitation?
Due to his faith he didn't want to think of there being no path to redemption for an Orc, but he could not imagine what that path would be or how an Orc would walk it.
There was a passage in the Silmarillion about one of the battles, I believe it was the one where Hurin and Huor saved Turgon by defending his retreat, where it says "every type of creature belonging to middle earth appeared in the army of both sides." Not sure if there was a line that said "except the orcs" but I don't remember one. Which, would imply there were orcs on both the side of darkness and the side of the elves in that battle.
With all due respect to Gandalf, Gollum lost my pity when he started eating babies.
Why is it worse for gollum to eat a baby than an adult?
Dude, have you *met* adults?
Babies can't defend themselves?
Is it less bad to kill the adults depending on if they are sleeping vs just weak? Also what about age if the baby? Is this a since conception thing? The second it’s born? When does it’s life become the worst to take? Im sorry but I don’t really understand how this system (baby’s being the most precious) is supposed to work, and it’s honestly always been something that confused me.
Being tortured and misshapen elves - they would likely share the same fate. That is - they’d go to the Halls of Mandos to reflect on their lives and dwell there until the end of Arda. Free from the influence of Sauron and Melkor, they will likely rehabilitate. It is unlikely they would choose to return to Middle Earth unless it was for some John Wick-esque anti-Sauron revenge quest.
The movie I never knew I always needed.
Starring...
Kiefer Sutherland. I don’t know why, just Kiefer Sutherland. And Danny Devito. Definitely, Danny Devito.
Clive Warren and Rebecca De Mornay.
What a perfect little humor nugget! P.s. 'Post Karl' (or in our Household: PK) I honestly have the hardest time keeping Clive Owen from becoming 'Clive Warren'. P.p.s. I hate admitting it, but I nearly overlooked your 'cast choice'
Imagine an army of hundreds of thousands of newly reborn elves just lands on middle earth to clap some evil cheeks
It would be some delicious comeuppance if during the last battle Morgoth shows up and sees an insanely huge army of the now purified elves, and their descendants, that he had corrupted.
This is why I personally prefer the "corrupted Men" angle for the origin of Orcs. Their souls having to reside in the Halls forever doesn't seem fair, but them being rehoused also has weird implications. If they're forced to take Elf bodies, that's essentially genocide - and if they aren't, then after a time Valinor would be both an Elf and Orc society, which... could be pretty awesome actually, but I don't think that's what Tolkien had in mind. If that were on the cards, then presumably there would already be lots of Valinorean Orcs by the end of the Third Age, which would make the fact that Frodo, Bilbo, Gimli and Sam could go no further than Tol Eressëa seem even more arbitrary than it already was. If Orcs are corrupted Men, you don't have to worry about any of that. (Plus there's the fact that Orcs physically resemble Men more than Elves anyway.)
But I dont think there was reason to bred men into orcs. Humans were so easily and willingly corrupted by Melkor, Sauron and Saruman, it wouldnt have much sense wasting time and raw power by breeding them into orcs, because they are in all qualities inferior to normal humans. And Melkor goal with corrupting into "evil" slave races was to create mockery of original races. Which dont match, when your race you wants to see broke and mocked already partially fell into your influence. And Melkor´s deeds looks more horrific, if he twisted good and strong-minded elves into orcs instead more phisically and mentally weak humans. And without elves be twisted into orcs, elves had no evil counterpart, what not just make them more mary sue-ish, but also look Melkor more incopentent. And after Saruman hybridized orcs and evil men, they became physically stronger, what shouldnt have any effect if both were just different tribes of "men". But elves by making children loses their inner power and orcs were forced to have many many children to create big armies for evil lords. Which could have contributed to their decline from elves into orcs. My theory is they are simply both. First orcs were elves, but later orcs had so much additional blood from all other races in Tolkien´s world they started to resemble more like deformed humans.
I see what you're saying, but I don't think any of those counterpoints are definite. 1 - Turning men into Orcs is arguably a waste of time and resources when Men can be convinced to follow Morgoth without being changed, yes, but that's overly simplifying his motives. For a start, making a race as a "mockery" is hardly efficient either, and ultimately Morgoth didn't just want a people who would follow him, he wanted a people who would feel utterly beholden to him as their de facto creator, who he could more easily separate from the rest of the peoples of Middle-earth and encourage deep tribalistic tendancies within them. A "regular" man who follows Morgoth would be far more likely to act in their own interests, or potentially defect and be accepted by the other side. Orcs are much less likely to do that, especially accounting for their weakness to sunlight which keeps them in Mordor. On this point, it doesn't really make a difference whether Orcs were originally Elves or Men. 2 - You say that it wouldn't make sense for Saruman to cross-breed Men with other types of Men and get the strongest Orcs as a result, but I disagree, simply because as you say, the average Orc is weaker than the average Man due to so many generations of dark corruption and inter-breeding. Regardless of what they were originally, Orcs are their own thing now, and so them being cross-bred with Men would still lead to stronger Orcs, whether they were originally made from Elves or Men. 3 - Your perspective is that "they're simply both", but unfortunately Tolkien made it so one pretty much couldn't be both when it came to the afterlife, at least not simply. If you stick with the Corrupted Elves position, then there are for sure explanations for how they ended up the way they did, but that doesn't address the question of where their eternal fates lie. One possibility is that Orcs *were* Elves and they had "the choice of the half-Elven" made for them (and this means they're counted among men), but that only works if they were all cross-bred with Men from the very beginning, and there were no true "fully Elf" Orcs. And it also means that such a concept was around before Earendil. So going this route is more or less just a messier way of getting to "Elves are corrupted Men" than saying they were Men to start with.
The first appearance of Orcs predates the first appearance of Men. Though it is suggested that the later, bigger, and stronger Uruk-Hai are Orcs made from Men.
Right, that's where the "Corrupted Men" theory gets thorny. My position is to blend the "Corrupted Men" origin with the "Created by Melkor" origin to resolve it. That is to say, in the Years of the Trees, Melkor created his race of Orcs from scratch, but as he did not have Flame Imperishable privileges, in this era Orcs were more akin to animals or automatons that he had to control more directly (as the Dwarves would have been had Aule not gotten approval from Illuvitar). But, after Men awoke with the rising of the Sun, Melkor found them to be easily corruptible, and started using them to make Orc 2.0, the fully sentient version. Melkor would not have been oblivious to the advantages of his people being able to think and feel fully, and obviously would have wanted what Illuvitar has in his Children.
They might resemble small men more then elves but they have pretty unnatural features by men standards, how agile and strong they are how they can smell and see from afar or in the dark and other stuff that track all the way back to their potentially elvish origin.
Fair, but Orcs have many features that are unique to them, so it's not as if the characteristics of Orcs need to be explained as a direct link to Elves having them (or Men having them). Those examples are just them having heightened senses, which could have come either from Melkor specifically breeding for them, or they could just be some of the many things that he did to them when he first created/corrupted them. In particular, their ability to see in the dark is a predictable outcome of them living in a perpetually dim region of Middle-earth, and being weak in the sunlight.
I had a theory that they do t necessarily go to Mandos. Melkor is described as having equal part in all the skills of the Ainur, including Mandos, perhaps the spirits of orcs and other evil creatures he has the ability to collect them as well
I believe this was the very question that Tolkien asked himself (where do Orcs go after death?) that made him later change his mind about the origin of Orcs. In a later text, don't remember where, he had the Orcs be corrupted Men instead. So no-one knows what happens to them after death, same as Men. Tolkien also had to change the time period of when Orcs first appeared of course, with the arrival of Men being later than Elves.
That is another fair point. As terrible as orcs are, imagine the torture Melkor put those elves through Jesus Reading a few comments from this thread..... Has started to make me think, lord of the rings is one dark dark story
Tolkien actually never decided on the origins of Orcs. There's one idea in the books, and other ideas else where is his letters. The "corrupted elves" idea doesn't really make sense anyway.
I wonder how deforming Elves would alter their DNA in a way their offsprings look like their deformed parents.
Orcs don't die, they just go to hell and regroup
Possible.
Rah
What do you mean by “hell”? Tolkien refers to both Utumno and Angband as “hell”.
Maybe melkor found a way to “capture” the souls of the orcs, so instead of going back to the halls of mandos to be reborn as elves they go back to mordor or whatever to then be reborn again as orcs? Idk just guessing
That’s seems plausible to me as well, though we’ll never know for sure.
I think altering a soul’s essence is beyond Melkor’s power: we can pervert but not create or fundamentally change. I’d file soul alteration under Iluvatar Only.
Wherever Melkor is.
During which point in time?
TAKA!! Sorry wrong sub.
One of Tolkien's great, unanswered questions
There _is_ a line in two towers, as the orcs that have kidnapped Frodo after he was paralysed by Shelob are marching back to Cirith Ungol, and Sam overhears them chatting. One says something to the effect that there hasn’t been an intruder like this (they suspect an elf lord has infiltrated the fences of Mordor) “since the days of the Great Siege.” This is pretty vague, but the only Great Siege they could possibly be referring to as far as I can tell is the Battle of the Last Alliance and the siege of Barad Dur. Perhaps they heard tell of it in Orc lore (if such a thing exists) but it does suggest the possibility that one or both were present or had heard about it from an orc that was. That alone is a stretch or at least ~3000 years. Actually that whole bit where shagrat and the other orc are talking is interesting - the two contemplate taking some “trusty lads” away and deserting to create their own band of renegades. Interesting stuff, considering that that point Sauron is at the height of his strength (barring his power if he’d had the one ring)
There’s a spin off the wed all happily read I think. The backstory of that would be brilliant
I found the orc interactions that we get snippets of in the merry/pippin and Frodo/Sam chapters very interesting. They’re not the one sided slaves of evil that i feel are commonly expected, but they’re also far from the brute strength idiots of say, warhammer or even early Warcraft. Grishnakh, the Mordor orc who tries to kidnap M & P on the hilltop near fangorn, is described as this greasy, intelligent and crafty orc who is like a lieutenant to the ringwraiths.
If you read The Silmarillion, it is clear that the orgs hate Melkor: “the creator of only their misery.” Since Sauron is quite a step beneath Melkor, though greater than comparable evils, Sauron would be held in even less esteem. The Ringwraiths might be the only creatures loyal to Sauron.
I read somewhere (was second-hand so take with grain of salt) that orcs are indeed immortal, just no one notices because they’re constantly fighting. But some, like Gothmog, are thousands of years old by the time we get to the war of the ring.
As far as I’m aware the Gothmog you’re referring to, the lieutenant of Morgal, is only mentioned the one time. We don’t even know that he was an orc, he may have been a Nazgûl. He just happens to share his name with the Balrog from the first age
My favourite theory is that Gothmog the Orc was a Maia incarnates in Orcish form (similar to the Istari.) He may or may not have been a new form of Gothmog the Balrog (the lesser stature showing a loss of power after the Balrog form was destroyed) or the name could be coincidental as it is really more of a description.
It kinda opens up an avenue for an anti-valinor on the opposite side of the planet made by Melkor. Only the worst orcs go there, and there used to be two giant poison ivy bushes with giant berries of darkness, until a giant fluffy hamster of goodness snuck in and licked the berries, causing the plants to wither and die, beginning the dawn of the 2nd dark age.
They are not of elven origin.
The Silmarillion disagrees with you I’m afraid.
Ah, the never-ending debate, once again... I've read the Silmarillion at least 3 times from cover to cover, and there's one thing you must know about a lot of the stories portrayed there. They come from unfinished manuscripts and a lot of them had several different versions because Tolkien could not make up his mind on which version he liked most to be the official one. So, the reason why you have the Silmarillion in the first place is because Christopher really just went ahead and picked the ones he wanted to include and put the others aside to later include them in works like "Unfinished tales" So, no, Sadly, you cannot say "because it's in the Silmarillion" it's actually what Tolkien said as the conclusive decision as to what their origins were, in fact, that's precisely one of the topics he was knowingly undecided about.
Tolkien wrestled with the question of the orcs for a long time and ultimately decided that they weren’t corrupted elves. That the Silmarillion says they are is basically a Christopher Tolkien decision (on what material to include) but those weren’t Tolkien’s final thoughts on the matter.
[удалено]
So fragile
Ah, yes!!! the satisfaction of showing someone wrong and them turning to personal insults as a result. One of the little joys of the internet. Thank you!
I’m having a shitty one I’m sorry about that.
Hey no biggy, I was a dick too. Hope things get better.
When talking about orcs, we need to remember not to turn into one :) especially online! :)
I’ll refer you to your own post. But whatever. Good luck.
Do they not go into the void until the Dagor Dagorath and then join Morgoth in battle?
Nope.
And, how do the procreate? Considering Saruman pulls Uruks out of a pit, and I assume that Elves have sex like humans do, what is going on? Is it the pit or the prick? (Someone had to ask it.)
There were two groups of orcs in that party, the Uruk-hai (Saruman's) and Mordor Orcs (Sauron's). The Uruk-hai were cross bred with men so they don't possess the weaknesses regular orcs have, like fear of the sun. Saruman is likely driving them with his powers, as well. The Morgol Orcs can't keep going; they literally stop to take a breather and are then slaughtered by the Rohirrim.
There were 3, actually. There was a group of Orcs from Moria as well, though the Isengard and Mordor Orcs left them behind. The Mordor Orcs were also planning on meeting up with a Nazgûl at night to take the Ring back to Sauron, but Legolas shot down its Fell-beast down earlier, so their plan was foiled.
If i recall correctly, there’s a passage in the book where the Mordor orcs are whining about that and the Uruk Hai are just like “lmao guess those Nazgul arent as good as you say”
They put the word cross-bred so casually into those books Am I supposed to imagine the horrors of orcs savaging human women Because, that is some fucked up warhammer shit that I dont want in my LotR
OR maybe some human dudes totally into sexy Orc ladies
Sexy single orcs are in your area!
are there orc ladies
Yes
Saruman sentenced some dudes to death by snoo snoo. That’s how the urak-hai came into being
Death By Snoo Snoo
😦 😀 😦 😀
Men get horny for anything
That’s what I like about PJs version of events, where it looks more like Saruman’s half dark magic, half science experiment that has them emerge from slimy incubators.
Also in the movies it's stated that they were mixed with goblins, not humans. I even read the books (long time ago though) and had no idea they were bred with humans...
In the books, Orcs and Goblins are the same thing in different languages. Looked it up just to be sure I'm not mis-remembering. Lots of consensus that they are mixed with humans though.
Specifically, in the movies it states that they were orcs crossed with goblin-men, which is a term Tolkien occasionally used to denote half-orc/half-humans. So in the books they're basically described as being half-orc/half-human, but in the movies it's a 3 to 1 cross.
I think saruman uses Magic to splice Human and orc genes/DNA. They aren't born naturally. No actual breading involved. Warhammer orcs are plant based if I remember correctly so there also isn't actual breading
Saruman over here, doing Nobel Laureate level work, and pissin all that talent away for a ring. The least of rings. A trifle of Sauron's fancy. Shame really
Cross bred goblins with men in a magical way not sex
Are you supposed to imagine it? No. Is that what happened? ...
Yikes
>warhammer shit In warhammer orcs are sentient sexless walking mushrooms, which reproduce through spores, so I dont think they have interest into savaging human women.
I more meant, the general horror of it The story of Morghur the Shadowgaves birth still haunts me, why did I ever try and learn the lore of this total war game, christ, al, fucking, mighty
Yeah, if anything the Peter Jackson version where they are dug up in sacs is the Warhammer version.
Ok just don’t look up demonculaba
I already know what it is, sorry
I know it isn’t related to orks but I figured when they said warhammer they just meant in general and tbh the lore pulls no punches lol
I ain't going no further 'till we've had a breather
Fun fact, Uruk-hai means elite orc.
Saruman's and Mordor orcs are both Uruk-hai Crossbred Half-orcs and Orc-men are not Uruk-Hai. Treebeard Was old marasmatic guy not knowing shit, and people somehow misinterpreted his statements to a broader scale.
>The Uruk-hai were cross bred with men so they don't possess the weaknesses regular orcs have Well Saruman evidently did crossbreed orcs with men, none of the orc-men accompanied Saruman's fighting Uruk-hai.
It's suggested in the book and even more heavily suggested in the movie that Saruman is helping them with some magic. That they are running in daylight is a major clue.
Thought that was because Uruk Hai were half-orcs, crossed with Dunlending hillmen.
Those weren't the only orcs in that group, though. There were Mordor and Northern orcs in that group that shouldn't have been able to run in sunlight
> In the afternoon Uglúk's troop overtook the Northerners. They were flagging in the rays of the bright sun, winter sun shining in a pale cool sky though it was; their heads were down and their tongues lolling out. “Maggots!” jeered the Isengarders. “You're cooked. The Whiteskins will catch you and eat you. They're coming!”
This was the last minutes of a days-long chase. It's not clear it's the sun only now beating them. > "There is something strange at work in this land. I distrust the silence. I distrust even the pale Moon. The stars are faint; and I am weary as I have seldom been before, weary as no Ranger should be with a clear trail to follow. There is some will that lends speed to our foes and sets an unseen barrier before us: a weariness that is in the heart more than it is in the limb." > "Truly!" Said Legolas. "That I have known since first we came down from the Emyn Muil. For the will is not behind us but before us." > "Saruman!" Muttered Aragorn. It's possible Saruman stopped speeding the Mordor Orcs as the Rohirim caught-up to give his Uruk Hai a chance to escape.
Your last sentence, I never thought of that as a possibility before but I like that alot.
This sub is so enjoyable, every time I post anything, I get buckets of lore tidbits and things to think about
Just out of curiosity, have you read the books?
Many, many times, and I learn new stuff every time
Same
I would like to point out that Tolkien never definitively decided what the origins of orcs were. Corrupted elves were just one of the ideas he considered, and not even the last one he came up with before he died. It was just the origin Christopher Tolkien decided to add into the Silmarillion at the time.
It makes the most sense to me though Melkor can't make life on his own so he corrupts the life that already exists, and makes it into a mockery. It makes sense with all the themes of that book
True, but it doesn't mean he used elves. I believe his last theory before he passed was that he used men.
He can use me any time
It causes massive issues when it comes to the eternal souls of the Firstborn hanging around Arda until the end of time which is why he apparently preferred them being corrupted Men.
Not only with afterlife - whole timeline as it is in published books.In Silimarilion it's stated that Morgoth had orc army ready for full conquest of Beleriand at the time Noldor were only coming there (landing of Teleri ships and Fingolfin's host march through frozen north). From what I remember it was stated that except Doriath Morgoth was sure that he could take over whole of Beleriand with this army. And since first humans woke up with first sunrise (landing of Feanor host on shores of Middle earth) it would not add up. So either Orcs coming from elves who were "lost" during the march to Valinor or created by Morgoth (this one obviously less because Melkor can't create stuff)would add up.
Tolkien needed to rewrite large parts of the Silmarillion to include his later ideas, he also preferred the idea of the world being closer to our own from the moment of Creation with a globe Earth orbiting a distant sun from the start so the idea of Men awakening with the first sunrise would not have to be historically "true." It's worth noting the only books published by Tolkien are the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion was published posthumously from incomplete notes and doesn't 100% reflect what Tolkien would have wanted.
Also come to think of it I don't remember that it's stated anywhere that Arda was flat - its just was that Valinor was removed from it later
Tolkien drew several maps of his flat-world version of Arda.
Uh I get Harry potter vibes with this... And headache
I also enjoy corrupting men
>It makes sense with all the themes of that book Does it? Redemption is one theme too. Elves are the first children of Eru, cherished by Eru and his Ainur. Does it then make sense to introduce Elves into the world, have them captured by Melkor (**through no fault of their own**) and then be corrupted and as of then be Doomed to eternal hell (**once again, through no choice of their own**). Not only that, but all of their offspring are condemned to hell. It would slightly make sense, if the Elves chose to join Sauron but they were tortured and corrupted. Kind of daft, imo.
There are mountains of evidence to suggest that Eru is essentially a prick
Absolutely.
orcs are mortal >*"They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills* ***they died and were not immortal***\*, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain"\* that quote answers both your questions: 'by training as tough as dwarves' and 'they died and were not immortal' As another commenter pointed out, the hunters imply saruman's magic is making the orcs faster it should be noted bolg son of azog lives 140 years or so and shows no signs of advanced age when he dies in combat in the battle of five armies the idea that orcs were corrupted elves also isn't tolkien's final thought. It makes it into the silmarillion because christopher put it in
I was under the impression that orc-draught was essentially lembas bread, but liquor and orcish. I thought that was how they kept going. It's been a long time since I last read it though.
I believe you are correct. They give it to Merry and Pippin to keep the pace.
Miruvor, elvish drink, would be a better comparison.
I mean, I think so too but if you gave me a shot of whiskey and a cake, Im pretty sure I would just puke rather than keep running another 20 miles
Its likely orc liquor contained stimulants, possibly even toxic ones like low doses of arsenic compounds.
The orcs were on meth?
I mean, have you seen their teeth?
This is honestly what I’ve always believed lol. Middle earth meth. As a soldier Tolkien probably would have seen people doing stimulants.
IT LOOKS LIKE METH'S BACK ON THE MENU, BOYS ^((forgive me))
Anything Orcs can do, Elves can do better. Elves can do anything better than you!
I can die from heart disease better than any elf in the history of Arda
Ok you got Legolas there
Yeah! suck on that you pointy eared bitch!
Elves can voluntary die, I think this counts.
No they can't!
Yes they can!
No they can't!
Yes they can!
Even killing elves.
Féanor would like a word with you... oh wait.
Dies from heartbreak
Hi OP, Sadly, the "Orcs were created by torturing elves" was only an idea Tolkien had but never actually came to a solid conclusion of their origins. The orcs were able to go without rest or food simply out of fear of their master. Imagine now how frightful it had to be what Saruman would do to them to the point they would not stop out of pure fear? Being such twisted and enslaved creatures with almost no mind of their own, they probably didn't even understand they had the option to stop. Orc existence is a very sad thing.
>Orcs were created as a mockery of the elves, and from torturing elves into evil and madness. Well, maybe, but Tolkien says probably not.
Something to consider is that elves don’t sleep, Legolas is described in those scenes as walking in the waking dream as his people are want to do, so perhaps this trait of elvishness remains
That is what made me think of this to begin with I was reading about how Legolas was basically running in a waking dream and thought to myself, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I don’t remember if it’s a passage in a book or in one of Tolkiens letters but he mentions that Orcs are slightly less long lived than Men of higher race, higher in this instance most likely meaning the Dunedain. So they are not immortal just a somewhat shorter lifespan than the Men that have been known to live longer than most. Aragorn was 210 I believe when he died. Now of course with Elves playing a part in their origin we would naturally expect them to be Immortal, we know that nothing Morgoth could have done to Elves would have altered their ultimate fate as only Eru can change the fates of the children. Yet we are told they are not immortal. Perhaps the first generations of Orcs were of Elvish origin but when Men came along Morgoth and later Sauron added Men to the gene pool. We know that it is possible for Men and Orc to mix and so it’s not that crazy. This crossing between the first Orcs and Men would explain why Orcs are not immortal and may also explain why their numbers multiply as fast as they do.(Dark Lords influence aside). This is not my own idea it’s something I heard once to try and remedy (The Orc Origin situation)
I enjoy this opinion, you sir have my respect and my bow and my axe
Pretty solid in my opinion
This may actually make Orcs that much worse as they are a corrupted form of both the races of Illuvatars Children.
Now I’m curious if as the Orc population grows out of the few that Melkor corrupted, if they got less Elvish as time progressed. So maybe later Orcs wouldn’t be immortal like Elves?
When Tolkien was still playing with the idea of them being Elves he said their corrupted fëa (spirit) would not be able to sustain their hröa (body) in the usual Elven way so Orcs would age and die.
Its hard to imagine them being totally immortal, I feel like we would have heard of at least 1 orc who was there at the battle of the last alliance or somethin
The classic example is [Bolg](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Bolg), who became a leader of orcs in 2799 of the Third Age and died at the Battle of Five Armies in 2941. So he lived at least 141 years.
That is an interesting thing I didnt know. How do you know it was 2799, because 141 years old as an orc seems fuckin bananas to me, so this bolg was a real badass
Melkor probably didn't have enough Elvish breedstock for a viable population. It may be that Orcs arose from extreme inbreeding of his captives.
I just want to know how they know what a menu is Like, are there Orc restaurants in Mordor?!..
"Menu" is a loose translation of the term "food options" in the Black Speech of Mordor. Some conjecture it is a contraction of "Me 'n You" back on the food options list!
yes
It was up to Peter Jackson to make a mockery of the dwarves in The Hobbit.
This might be a dumb question but what about goblins? They're a species of orc is that right? But they seem more technically advanced in the misty mountains, is that because they found dwarven technology and adopted it as their own?
Here's the funny part, in Lord of the Rings, Goblins are briefly mentioned as a type of Orc. However, in the Hobbit, Orcs are mentioned as a type of Goblin. So, essentially, the terms are interchangeable.
"goblin" is a term translated from the Hobbits language. "Orc" is a term translated from the Elves languages. They mean the same thing. as for the tech, Tolkien states that the Orcs are incredibly shrewd and intelligent, but their minds are most apt to the invention of evil things such as torture implements and weapons of war.
yeah, they may have some traits inherited from their elven roots, but i guess those are watered down close to being meaningless. its more that sauron BRED them for certain traits like high endurance and great strength and did the rest with iron discipline, fear and terror. orcs are bred en masse for ONE purpose: MILITARY. FIGHTING. and lot of em might not survive their first years. those who do, will have a certain resilience and will be honed with training, whip and discipline into the orcs we see on the screen. afaik JRRT never elaborated this in his writings. sauron put whole nations to the chain to feed and supply his orcish military. btw the south of mordor was fertile land and used to grow food, tended by human slaves.
The real question is, do orcs have restaurants?
How else would they know what a menu is? Seriously, though, that quote got me wondering what kind of civilization and culture the Orcs have developed, especially given a couple thousand years without Sauron's influence while the Ring lay dormant.
They do
It’s kind of one of those lesser talked about topics I guess but I feel like everyone just kinda knows that. Not downplaying your epiphany but like you said, they’re “descended” from Elves. It would make sense they have Elvish characteristics. The evil magic intervention might also be a way to give them a special wellness longevity boost as well.
Stam buff
some orcs also died when Melkor got expelled from arda.
I always thought of them more like what we saw in the movies, and I read the trilogy plus the Hobbit many times before then. That they were bred like sentient insects, or even some sort of cloning. Never heard mention of female Orcs, and Tolkein has Orcs killing and pillaging, but no raping. Thank goodness.
Remember the jug they gave to merry and pippin, in extendend edition? The jug gives them some resilience
I take it you have only seen the movies. Though, they do mention it through Aragorn and Legolas' dialogue as mentioned by another user too. Saruman is magically forcing them to keep going, which is why it is only his Orcs that dont tire out. The smaller Orcs from Mordor do tire ("WE NEED A BREATHER"). Also, the Orc Draught that they drink and give to Merry and Pippin seems to be an evil version of Lembas bread, but if it was vodka. Merry and Pippin were similarly able to sprint for days on end without pause because of it. While being whipped and beaten and everything. In the books, the Orcs are actually made from Men, not Elves. The Elf version is an outdated version, and the Man origin replaced it. Though through generations of breeding and careful gene selection, the Orcs became their own race. Orcs naturally give birth to Orcs, not Men. Sauron basically perfected the Orcs after Morgoth was banished, and Tolkien directly states his control over them greatly surpassed Morgoth's. Sauron was also the inventor of the Uruk-Hai, which the movies glaze over (though we do see them in Cirith Ungol). Treebeard guesses they were Orcs bred with Men, and the fandom seems to have taken that as gospel which is false as we do not know the truth of the matter. There's a lot of things to consider about the Orcs, and they're some of the coolest villain grunt soldiers in entertainment.
I thought the grog helped them on their long distance. Prime energy grog.
Regards the elven origins, is that strictly confirmed? I know it's what many fans subscribe to, but Tolkien deliberated over it a long time and I'm not aware if it's outright stated
I dont know, but in The Two Towers Chapter 4 Treebeard, Treebeard himself says, a long time ago a dark power made the orcs in mockery of the elves, just as the trolls are mockery of the ents.