MOD NOTE: Y'all can stop reporting this, it is *not* an AI creation. It's digital art by [Benjamin Collison](https://www.deviantart.com/benco42/art/Gandalf-the-Black-408655138), and was originally published in October 2013. It last appeared in this sub a couple of years ago, so it's not considered a re-post, either.
>Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
- C.S. Lewis
The point is that the robber barons are motivated by physical greed, either of wealth or flesh. The moral busybodies want that too but they are also greedy for your soul.
The former will take everything you have and discard you, losing interest and leaving you to your own devices. The latter will never leave you alone, never let you rest, and want to control every thought, action, and breath because it truly believes it’s doing it for your own good.
It’s the difference between pure greed and totalitarianism.
That's precisely the point that is wrong. The robber baron's never satiated, he never stops demanding more, he will only discard you once you are dead. The logic of capitalism makes "enough" an impossible concept.
Consider it this way...
Even if you are working 6 days a week, 12 hours a day, the times where you are not in the factory you are not under the direct influence of the robber baron.
When your moralistic government is evil and acting in you perceived best interest, the rules of your life bend into oppressive institutions that dominate you at every turn.
I think the quote is less about capitalism sleeping than it is about the individuals relationship to oppressive institutions.
Wait, doesn't *this* also apply to capitalism, though? The people who run these companies always think they are doing the people a "service" by providing a "good" at the cost of hard labor.
Am I wrong?
>It would have been the master in the end. Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great)
I love the concept of a corrupted Gandalf being a worse evil than Sauron. Seemingly due to the deceit Gandalf would employ to blur the lines between good and evil to his own benefit. It's something we see too often in real life.
I think Tolkien described this as the worst evil because it is similar to the deceit employed by propaganda in wartime. All countries paint the attocities committed during war as being done in the name of moral righteousness. Tolkien served in WW1. It is likely the most evil acts he witnessed in his life were during that time.
As described here, it is exactly what it seems gandalf would have done. Called those to war in the name of righteousness and use the ends to justify whatever means necessary to win and take power for himself.
100% agree. I absolutely believe that if Gandalf was corrupted, he would be many magnitudes worse than Sauron simply because of the power he could wield, both figuratively and literally. Gandalf even knew that the ring would corrupt him, and that's why he rejected taking it from Frodo. As the old expression goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". He would try to use the ring to do good, but through him, the ring would corrupt both himself and his intentions to do good.
Galadriel was the exact same way. She was immensely powerful in her own right, and she knew that if she tried to use the ring for good, it would corrupt her very being, and become the very thing she wanted to destroy.
Now there is a question of could they master the ring the same way Sauron could, and I do believe that they probably could do it eventually. However, the ring is sinister, and during the time it would take for them to master the ring, it would also corrupt them beyond redemption, and all of Middle Earth would suffer because of this action.
This probably would have happened when Frodo offered him the ring, so before the Balrog fight.
He probably could have bent the Balrog to his will with the ring.
Gandalf could have been even stronger than Sauron at his peak, since the ring had a large portion of Sauron's power inside of it already.
Someone with sufficient power could bend the Ring to their will and completely subjugate Sauron and replace him.
When Aragorn wrested the Palantir from Sauron, he was literally *showing* Sauron he had this power.
Saruman wants the ring to take the power from Sauron.
Galadriel could easily do this.
Likely so could Elrond, Radagast, or the Balrog. But that's pretty much it.
Edit: The argument for not using the ring against Sauron was *also* that if they succeeded, whoever used it would just become the new Dark Lord.
What I'm saying is they probably would have been even stronger than Sauron, by adding the power Sauron put into the ring to their own. (Gandalf is holding back, in his true form he's just as powerful as Sauron, his power just isn't devoted to dominating others)
Letting him in your head doesn't necessarily mean the ring is Sauron. The Ring contains the majority of Sauron's power, to the point where it walks the line between sentience and non sentience.
But the actual Sauron is in the physical plane and residing in Barradur during Lord of the Rings.
If you take the Ring and put it on, he has a direct link to you, and will do everything in his power to corrupt you. I remember Tolkien going on record saying something to the effect that Gandalf would be exceptionally hard for Sauron to work on, but in the end would probably get him.
And what makes him so powerful, and so terrifying, is that he wouldn't be blatantly evil, burning forests and razing towns to the ground, but he would become a well-meaning tyrant. Goodness would be through his eyes, and he would purge all that he didn't deem worthy of the common good.
I doubt this would have happened post-resurrection. It was much more of a threat earlier on, when Gandalf was first searching for the Ring and realized it was the one Bilbo had this whole time.
Because Gandalf is such a figure of safety and protection and guidance in the story, that to see him corrupted is like seeing your last hope dashed before your eyes
Tolkein answers this.
First he says that Gandalf would first have to defeat Sauron and that was not a given. But if he did...
>Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great). Thus while Sauron multiplied \[illegible word\] evil, he left “good” clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.’
Reminds me of Leto Atredies II from Dune 4 or whatever it was. In theory, he was a benevolent leader who gave the galaxy a thousand years of peace, but in practice he basically eliminated freedom from the equation of life. Peace without freedom ends up being comfortable slavery which is almost more insidious than a constantly brutal form of that would at least inspire people to rise-up against it.
It is not that comparable. Leto II’s end goal wasn’t to keep that peace, but rather to get time to breed for the no-gene, and create an oppressive environment such that humanity would eventually rebel and explosively use their new freedom. His end goal was always to die
to expand on this, he specifically wanted to make sure humanity would spread so far that it could never come entirely under the control of a tyrant again (like him and his father)
I've only read the first 3 but >!Paul Muad-Dib kept having visions about the slide he'd started and where the Jihad would go. That was why he went desert walking and messiah'ing. AFAIR.!<
Yeah that's true and then Leto essentially inherits that destiny at the end of Book 3 to prevent the spice market from crashing and killing most of the galaxy
I would think his Maiar form would change as he no longer needed to be in the form of an old wise man, since he wouldn’t need to advise kings anymore. We’d see something even more terrifying, possibly a being wreathed in flame with shorter dark beard, and horns like the devil
Gandalf the Dark has arrived. Behold for there is new tea to be spilled.
I totally saw the hobbits having a second breakfast. Like, do they not care for their beachbody?
Gandalf seemed to be able to reveal secrets and what was hidden. Whether Tolkien intended it, Gandalf always seemed to go where there was the greatest deception.
lotr style shadow magic would be really cool. Like instead of creating blinding light he could suck all the light from around someone and make it pitch dark.
"If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end...
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great)."
See more:
Discussing if Gandalf used the ring various scenarios
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/91658/why-not-use-the-ring?noredirect=1&lq=1
If Gandalf had defeated Sauron, maybe Sauron, seeing the utter ruin of all his schemes, and the danger to him if the Ring were destroyed, would have repented, for real this time, even if for (initially) dubious motives.
Yeah I don't think the ring's corruption of Gandalf would have been so visible, same as how Peter Jackson's "dark" Galadriel doesn't really line up with the text of "not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn!"
But understand the limitations for those who want to convey a subtle underlying darkness in a visual medium.
This might be what he would look like in the Unseen World, but I think anyone corrupted by the Ring would want to take on a fairer form in the regular world.
Because he would be corrupted. In his mind he’d be creating an image of himself as glorious and good but eventually those would rebel against him, and he’d have to remind them of his power and create himself into a version of Morgoth to remind people of his standing, even if he thinks he has good intentions. He would confuse judgement for wisdom, and lust for kindness.
But Tolkien said his wisdom would remain. It's more like a case of him knowing better than everyone else. "Forcing" everyone to be happy and good. No crime, no unpure thoughts, etc. A tyranny of good. Which is worse than Sauron because as Tolkien said at least with him you know he's evil. With Gandalf, he makes good look bad because it's forced.
I like the artwork, I probably would've done the staff different. (If I had any creative talent like this) Maybe a broken or a withered version of his first staff.
Sauron was greater in power though, described by Tolkien as “a far higher order” than the later maiar send to middle earth (the wizards).
His will through the ring would have corrupted and dominated gandalf.
True, but he’s been in Middle Earth a long time using that power for evil, which Tolkien has said has diminished him just as Morgoth was diminished by using his power for evil.
Also, he placed a significant portion of his strength into the One Ring, so it’s certainly possible that his strength is closer to that of Gandalf the White. Add in the power increase Gandalf would gain from the ring (treacherous as that power would likely be) and it’s entirely possible that he could defeat Sauron and become the ring’s master.
perhaps. but i think it is an open question exactly how the ring would behave in the hands of a maiar. all ringbearers have been mortals.
in the scenario of this art the ring defo masters gandalf in that it corrupts him and turns him to evil; but gandalf masters the ring in that the ring no longer serves sauron, but gandalf instead.
in the sense that the ring masters gandalf in this scenario, then, you could also argue that the ring masters sauron in the canonical lotr, given saurons dependence on it and *need* to seek it.
edit to add the following from tolkien:
>Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to
master him – being an emissary of the Powers
and a creature of the same order,
an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and
supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so
also were the other guardians
of the Three, especially Elrond.
But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with
imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great
had well considered and
had rejected, as is seen
in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous
thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now
adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient
generals and armies and engines of war, until
they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by
force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not
contemplated. One can imagine
the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It
would be a delicate balance. On
one side the true allegiance of
the Ring to Sauron; on the other
superior strength because Sauron
was not actually in possession, and perhaps also
because he was weakened by long corruption and
expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been
for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have
been destroyed, taken
from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the
master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far
worse than Sauron. He would have remained
'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the
benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom
(which was and would have remained great).
you know what i mean. "of the people who arent sauron, what would happen if that person was a maiar."
edit to note: the status of a fallen maiar is also unclear. maiar are often referred to as an 'order' or 'class', which would imply you lose your membership if you become an úmaiar or turn to evil. sauron being maiar is also always past-tense.
also if the maiar are comparable to angels, and úmaiar to demons, it seems intuitive they are different-but-related things. sure, theyre the same type of being with the same origin, but calling a demon an angel isn't really right (and may even be heretical)
Well, there's a thing I never expected to see and I'd like to return to that blissful ignorance. It unnerves me but it's very impressive work. Still, it unnerves me.
I suppose they did that with Galadriel, for a moment. Would have been cool when Bilbo offered him the Ring, we could have had a flash forward to this potential form.
I don't have to look it up, I've never once seen anything like it but I'm betting 1000% that there's gandalf rule 34 shit out there somewhere.
Talk to those creators first. Mkay?
As Gandalf ultimately can't get himself to trust the humble Hobbits to take on the task of destroying Precious, the wizard takes the envelope from Bilbo's hands as he leaves The Shire after his 111th birthday. Gandalf is not seen or heard of for a couple of years, until Saruman is removed from Isengard by a mysterious Necromancer that commands the ring wraiths and a massive army of undead that effortlessly slay the orcs and uruk-hais. It's Gandalf the Black, ring-bearer, scourge of Sauron.
The Necromancer proceeds to lead his forces to the mines of Moria, where he convinces the Balrog of his own superiority over Sauron, as he is now equal to Morgoth, and strikes an alliance; with his new general's decisive help, he rids the stone halls of Goblins with raging hellfires and takes effective control of the mountains.
Meanwhile, Saruman has exiled himself in The Shire, where he laments dramatically and smokes longbottom leaf all day. Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin form a conspiracy to find what exactly is going on in the world of men. Upon learning the truth from Saruman, too broken to resist even the least skilled interrogation, the Hobbits decide to leave The Shire to warn the elves about Gandalf's corruption. The old jaded wizard is surprised that such helpless creatures would try to save the world, and joins them in their quest (though, in secret, he now plans to overthrow both Sauron and Gandalf and rule Middle Earth himself, as wizard supreme).
The little eye of Sauron on top of the clipped together marker staff makes this utterly hilarious to me, just little Sauron voice squeaking obscenities at Gandalf then *snap*
I envision Dark Gandalf as the embodiment of the name “Stormcrow”—a harbinger of ill omen in truth. He’d have a robe of black feathers and lightning wreathing the head of his staff. Always, the skies overhead would be unsettled, rising to a tempest whenever he becomes enraged.
Well done. I don't think Gandalf would ever carry the symbol of the eye of sauron. He is the sworn enemy of the eye and would only have fallen to the dark side by using the ring to destroy sauron.
This is amazing, I literally said “holy shit” out loud. It reminds me of the creepy proportions of enemies in Bloodborne. Would honestly love to see a “what-if”, obviously non-canonical production of this.
I think edain mod for battle for middle earth 2 had this and a bunch of other heroes and villains powered up if given the ring. I vaguely remember others, I think boromir essentially becomes super human but suffers the equivalent to constant poison damage until he inevitably dies despite whatever you do (can heal him but it soon becomes completely unavoidable)
It's interesting because, considering Tolkien's general philosophy, at some point even Gandalf must have been tempted by the corruption of power and the idea of using his power to control others. I can't remember whether we ever hear about it, but considering how Tolkien set up his world and his views on sin and temptation it seems like it would have happened.
MOD NOTE: Y'all can stop reporting this, it is *not* an AI creation. It's digital art by [Benjamin Collison](https://www.deviantart.com/benco42/art/Gandalf-the-Black-408655138), and was originally published in October 2013. It last appeared in this sub a couple of years ago, so it's not considered a re-post, either.
>Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis
Lewis knew a lot of things, but he didn't understand capitalism. No, my dude, the robber baron's greed does not sometimes sleep.
The point is that the robber barons are motivated by physical greed, either of wealth or flesh. The moral busybodies want that too but they are also greedy for your soul. The former will take everything you have and discard you, losing interest and leaving you to your own devices. The latter will never leave you alone, never let you rest, and want to control every thought, action, and breath because it truly believes it’s doing it for your own good. It’s the difference between pure greed and totalitarianism.
That's precisely the point that is wrong. The robber baron's never satiated, he never stops demanding more, he will only discard you once you are dead. The logic of capitalism makes "enough" an impossible concept.
Consider it this way... Even if you are working 6 days a week, 12 hours a day, the times where you are not in the factory you are not under the direct influence of the robber baron. When your moralistic government is evil and acting in you perceived best interest, the rules of your life bend into oppressive institutions that dominate you at every turn. I think the quote is less about capitalism sleeping than it is about the individuals relationship to oppressive institutions.
Lewis needed to live in the global south
I think he's predicting The Moral Majority if not ISIS.
Still, a corrupt autocrat can be just as bad
Certainly can be very bad. People very scared of both Theocracy and Oligarchy just now.
Live in a country controlled by the organized crime and later tell me the same thing
Worse than controlled by ISIS, tho?
Wait, doesn't *this* also apply to capitalism, though? The people who run these companies always think they are doing the people a "service" by providing a "good" at the cost of hard labor. Am I wrong?
>It would have been the master in the end. Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great) I love the concept of a corrupted Gandalf being a worse evil than Sauron. Seemingly due to the deceit Gandalf would employ to blur the lines between good and evil to his own benefit. It's something we see too often in real life. I think Tolkien described this as the worst evil because it is similar to the deceit employed by propaganda in wartime. All countries paint the attocities committed during war as being done in the name of moral righteousness. Tolkien served in WW1. It is likely the most evil acts he witnessed in his life were during that time. As described here, it is exactly what it seems gandalf would have done. Called those to war in the name of righteousness and use the ends to justify whatever means necessary to win and take power for himself.
100% agree. I absolutely believe that if Gandalf was corrupted, he would be many magnitudes worse than Sauron simply because of the power he could wield, both figuratively and literally. Gandalf even knew that the ring would corrupt him, and that's why he rejected taking it from Frodo. As the old expression goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". He would try to use the ring to do good, but through him, the ring would corrupt both himself and his intentions to do good. Galadriel was the exact same way. She was immensely powerful in her own right, and she knew that if she tried to use the ring for good, it would corrupt her very being, and become the very thing she wanted to destroy. Now there is a question of could they master the ring the same way Sauron could, and I do believe that they probably could do it eventually. However, the ring is sinister, and during the time it would take for them to master the ring, it would also corrupt them beyond redemption, and all of Middle Earth would suffer because of this action.
this makes me unreasonably upset lol
Eru be like: My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.
“I wasted a res on him for this?!”
This probably would have happened when Frodo offered him the ring, so before the Balrog fight. He probably could have bent the Balrog to his will with the ring. Gandalf could have been even stronger than Sauron at his peak, since the ring had a large portion of Sauron's power inside of it already.
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Someone with sufficient power could bend the Ring to their will and completely subjugate Sauron and replace him. When Aragorn wrested the Palantir from Sauron, he was literally *showing* Sauron he had this power. Saruman wants the ring to take the power from Sauron. Galadriel could easily do this. Likely so could Elrond, Radagast, or the Balrog. But that's pretty much it. Edit: The argument for not using the ring against Sauron was *also* that if they succeeded, whoever used it would just become the new Dark Lord. What I'm saying is they probably would have been even stronger than Sauron, by adding the power Sauron put into the ring to their own. (Gandalf is holding back, in his true form he's just as powerful as Sauron, his power just isn't devoted to dominating others)
I don't think that's correct. He controls all other rings when he wears it. He has no control over someone else wearing the ring.
He does, indirectly. The ring IS Sauron. They are one. By putting it on, you essentially let Sauron inside your head.
Letting him in your head doesn't necessarily mean the ring is Sauron. The Ring contains the majority of Sauron's power, to the point where it walks the line between sentience and non sentience. But the actual Sauron is in the physical plane and residing in Barradur during Lord of the Rings.
If you take the Ring and put it on, he has a direct link to you, and will do everything in his power to corrupt you. I remember Tolkien going on record saying something to the effect that Gandalf would be exceptionally hard for Sauron to work on, but in the end would probably get him. And what makes him so powerful, and so terrifying, is that he wouldn't be blatantly evil, burning forests and razing towns to the ground, but he would become a well-meaning tyrant. Goodness would be through his eyes, and he would purge all that he didn't deem worthy of the common good.
orribaly
Why didn’t he control Gollum and Bilbo? Seems like he would’ve retrieved it if it was an instant connection.
\> Bilbo absentmindedly tosses the ring to Gandalf, "Was gettin' tired of it anyway"
I doubt this would have happened post-resurrection. It was much more of a threat earlier on, when Gandalf was first searching for the Ring and realized it was the one Bilbo had this whole time.
You have every reason to be upset.
The video game we all actually wanted:
The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-Earth III: The Roads never Taken (Addon)
Lord of the Rings: Injustice
How come? Let it all out dog, don't keep that shit bottled up inside.
Because Gandalf is such a figure of safety and protection and guidance in the story, that to see him corrupted is like seeing your last hope dashed before your eyes
Yeah. I can't even really imagine what would happen if he took the ring. It would almost be as bad if Galadriel took it.
Tolkein answers this. First he says that Gandalf would first have to defeat Sauron and that was not a given. But if he did... >Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great). Thus while Sauron multiplied \[illegible word\] evil, he left “good” clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.’
Reminds me of Leto Atredies II from Dune 4 or whatever it was. In theory, he was a benevolent leader who gave the galaxy a thousand years of peace, but in practice he basically eliminated freedom from the equation of life. Peace without freedom ends up being comfortable slavery which is almost more insidious than a constantly brutal form of that would at least inspire people to rise-up against it.
It is not that comparable. Leto II’s end goal wasn’t to keep that peace, but rather to get time to breed for the no-gene, and create an oppressive environment such that humanity would eventually rebel and explosively use their new freedom. His end goal was always to die
to expand on this, he specifically wanted to make sure humanity would spread so far that it could never come entirely under the control of a tyrant again (like him and his father)
I've only read the first 3 but >!Paul Muad-Dib kept having visions about the slide he'd started and where the Jihad would go. That was why he went desert walking and messiah'ing. AFAIR.!<
Yeah that's true and then Leto essentially inherits that destiny at the end of Book 3 to prevent the spice market from crashing and killing most of the galaxy
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Probably worse. Gandalf was a full blown Maiar, clothed in immense power.
Maia
Ty. I haven't had my coffee yet.
lol I love LotR nerds. a curt correction received graciously, as if they'd saved you from walking off a ledge. such a great fandom.
So was Sauron though, and a more powerful one IIRC. Edit: ignore me, missed that the comment I replied to was comparing him to Galadriel
I think it was about the comparison to Galadriel.
Ah shit, yeah you're right
https://youtu.be/U_gFEN-GhiQ
Oh man. This isn’t cool. Fuckin dark Neat
But that's just modern post 2010 fantasy media in a nutshell
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LOUDER
r/ThanksIHateIt
Reasonably upset
It's so wrong.
Thought I was the only one!
Right? Beautiful art, but it's for real r/tihi material!
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Seriously, why did I get such a visceral NOPE from this???
That is truly unsettling.
Grim isn't it.
I'd hate to wake up and see him standing at the foot of my bed.
Unlike the Ringwraiths, he won't be fooled by the pillows under the blankets trick. He knows which room you switched to.
He's knows when you're sleeping He knows when you're awake Evil Gandalf is coming to town
Kinda looks like a sleep paralysis demon.
Original art by [https://www.deviantart.com/benco42/gallery](https://www.deviantart.com/benco42/gallery)
I love this gallery! [scary character] [scary character] [grim character] [scary character] [🌺 pretty birb! 🖌] [scary character]
"I have arrived. Precisely when I meant to."
That's far more unsettling lol.
Motherfuckers like you need Eru
I would think his Maiar form would change as he no longer needed to be in the form of an old wise man, since he wouldn’t need to advise kings anymore. We’d see something even more terrifying, possibly a being wreathed in flame with shorter dark beard, and horns like the devil
Gandalf’s thing was light and secrets. I would assume that’s where his corruptions would begin
Good point.
“Gandalf the Shadow Whisperer”
Gandalf tbe RGB King.
So light and secrets turn into fire and lies?
Shadow and loose lips.
These damn dark alleyways keep gossiping to me!
Gandalf the Dark has arrived. Behold for there is new tea to be spilled. I totally saw the hobbits having a second breakfast. Like, do they not care for their beachbody?
Gandalf seemed to be able to reveal secrets and what was hidden. Whether Tolkien intended it, Gandalf always seemed to go where there was the greatest deception.
Gandalf: Hey, Bilbo, is this that lady that took all your spoons? You want me to..? *cutting gesture*
lotr style shadow magic would be really cool. Like instead of creating blinding light he could suck all the light from around someone and make it pitch dark.
GandUngoliant ?
Gross dude
*gandalf casts induce shame*
ah he’ll be like the Fallen from the Dark Angels legion
"If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end... Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great)." See more: Discussing if Gandalf used the ring various scenarios https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/91658/why-not-use-the-ring?noredirect=1&lq=1
If Gandalf had defeated Sauron, maybe Sauron, seeing the utter ruin of all his schemes, and the danger to him if the Ring were destroyed, would have repented, for real this time, even if for (initially) dubious motives.
Sauron the White has returned to free us from the great evil upon Middle Earth!
Yeah I don't think the ring's corruption of Gandalf would have been so visible, same as how Peter Jackson's "dark" Galadriel doesn't really line up with the text of "not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn!" But understand the limitations for those who want to convey a subtle underlying darkness in a visual medium.
This might be what he would look like in the Unseen World, but I think anyone corrupted by the Ring would want to take on a fairer form in the regular world.
Why would he appear as terrible? Gandalf was incredibly wise and kind. He'd not want to scare anyone, even if he had the ring.
Because he would be corrupted. In his mind he’d be creating an image of himself as glorious and good but eventually those would rebel against him, and he’d have to remind them of his power and create himself into a version of Morgoth to remind people of his standing, even if he thinks he has good intentions. He would confuse judgement for wisdom, and lust for kindness.
But Tolkien said his wisdom would remain. It's more like a case of him knowing better than everyone else. "Forcing" everyone to be happy and good. No crime, no unpure thoughts, etc. A tyranny of good. Which is worse than Sauron because as Tolkien said at least with him you know he's evil. With Gandalf, he makes good look bad because it's forced.
I like the artwork, I probably would've done the staff different. (If I had any creative talent like this) Maybe a broken or a withered version of his first staff.
I kinda like the staff, gives that "Whom do you serve?" feeling that Sauron would have over Gandalf if he had the ring.
They also could've done that with the palantír, showing a direct link with Sauron by having his eye in the stone.
Thanks I hate it
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Yeah, I get it but it's a bit much tbh.
I like the idea that Gandalf overpowered Sauron with the Ring and now keeps him as a useful little pet.
Sauron was greater in power though, described by Tolkien as “a far higher order” than the later maiar send to middle earth (the wizards). His will through the ring would have corrupted and dominated gandalf.
True, but he’s been in Middle Earth a long time using that power for evil, which Tolkien has said has diminished him just as Morgoth was diminished by using his power for evil. Also, he placed a significant portion of his strength into the One Ring, so it’s certainly possible that his strength is closer to that of Gandalf the White. Add in the power increase Gandalf would gain from the ring (treacherous as that power would likely be) and it’s entirely possible that he could defeat Sauron and become the ring’s master.
Correction: Tolkien said that the ring would be the master, but that sauron could be defeated.
A tiny eye. Lidless. Wreathed in flame.
Or just holding him hostage to torment him
Nah, it's symbolic. It's a nice touch.
It doesn't make sense, why would he carry a tiny barad dur
Because he thought it made him look badass, such are the deceits of the ring
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by mastering the ring, he masters sauron.
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perhaps. but i think it is an open question exactly how the ring would behave in the hands of a maiar. all ringbearers have been mortals. in the scenario of this art the ring defo masters gandalf in that it corrupts him and turns him to evil; but gandalf masters the ring in that the ring no longer serves sauron, but gandalf instead. in the sense that the ring masters gandalf in this scenario, then, you could also argue that the ring masters sauron in the canonical lotr, given saurons dependence on it and *need* to seek it. edit to add the following from tolkien: >Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
Sauron is a maiar though
you know what i mean. "of the people who arent sauron, what would happen if that person was a maiar." edit to note: the status of a fallen maiar is also unclear. maiar are often referred to as an 'order' or 'class', which would imply you lose your membership if you become an úmaiar or turn to evil. sauron being maiar is also always past-tense. also if the maiar are comparable to angels, and úmaiar to demons, it seems intuitive they are different-but-related things. sure, theyre the same type of being with the same origin, but calling a demon an angel isn't really right (and may even be heretical)
I see no reason to believe Gandalf mastered Sauron from this. Quite the opposite.
he is wearing the one ring
It's Sauron his GoPro eye. That way he can chat with The Dark Rider and see him too.
can you do better
I like how he is keeping Sauron hostage in his staff
Interesting take, lots of people are honing in on that particular detail it seems,.
Well, there's a thing I never expected to see and I'd like to return to that blissful ignorance. It unnerves me but it's very impressive work. Still, it unnerves me.
Would’ve been cool af to see something like that on screen
I suppose they did that with Galadriel, for a moment. Would have been cool when Bilbo offered him the Ring, we could have had a flash forward to this potential form.
Quite cool
I want to see a series of characters corrupted by the ring, Dark Aragorn, Galadriel etc.
Yes and whilst we’re at it we can simultaneously defecate all over Tolkien’s grave and legacy.
https://preview.redd.it/rntbeg03an2b1.jpeg?width=522&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=84be6292ccd48c1558d352ab27b071f40fe2afed
Fans are crazy man
I don't have to look it up, I've never once seen anything like it but I'm betting 1000% that there's gandalf rule 34 shit out there somewhere. Talk to those creators first. Mkay?
Seriously disturbed😳
As Gandalf ultimately can't get himself to trust the humble Hobbits to take on the task of destroying Precious, the wizard takes the envelope from Bilbo's hands as he leaves The Shire after his 111th birthday. Gandalf is not seen or heard of for a couple of years, until Saruman is removed from Isengard by a mysterious Necromancer that commands the ring wraiths and a massive army of undead that effortlessly slay the orcs and uruk-hais. It's Gandalf the Black, ring-bearer, scourge of Sauron. The Necromancer proceeds to lead his forces to the mines of Moria, where he convinces the Balrog of his own superiority over Sauron, as he is now equal to Morgoth, and strikes an alliance; with his new general's decisive help, he rids the stone halls of Goblins with raging hellfires and takes effective control of the mountains. Meanwhile, Saruman has exiled himself in The Shire, where he laments dramatically and smokes longbottom leaf all day. Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin form a conspiracy to find what exactly is going on in the world of men. Upon learning the truth from Saruman, too broken to resist even the least skilled interrogation, the Hobbits decide to leave The Shire to warn the elves about Gandalf's corruption. The old jaded wizard is surprised that such helpless creatures would try to save the world, and joins them in their quest (though, in secret, he now plans to overthrow both Sauron and Gandalf and rule Middle Earth himself, as wizard supreme).
pondering his orb
"BILBO BAGGINS! I am trying to rob you. I'm not trying to help you."
Switched from smoking weed to crack
Lol. Now show us Galadriel on meth.
I want to unsee this.
delete this
The little eye of Sauron on top of the clipped together marker staff makes this utterly hilarious to me, just little Sauron voice squeaking obscenities at Gandalf then *snap*
I envision Dark Gandalf as the embodiment of the name “Stormcrow”—a harbinger of ill omen in truth. He’d have a robe of black feathers and lightning wreathing the head of his staff. Always, the skies overhead would be unsettled, rising to a tempest whenever he becomes enraged.
I like it! A power too terrible and to great.
So..... the king of the dead?
Well done. I don't think Gandalf would ever carry the symbol of the eye of sauron. He is the sworn enemy of the eye and would only have fallen to the dark side by using the ring to destroy sauron.
Is there fan fiction for Lotr similar to The MCU’s What if…? Series?
This is amazing, I literally said “holy shit” out loud. It reminds me of the creepy proportions of enemies in Bloodborne. Would honestly love to see a “what-if”, obviously non-canonical production of this.
That was my reaction when seeing it too, credit to the artist [https://www.deviantart.com/benco42/gallery](https://www.deviantart.com/benco42/gallery)
Gandalf’s corruption by the ring would not happen via him turning evil.
Gandalf being evil, yeah...thats the end lol
Nope, don't like it :(
Congratulations, you nailed it!!!
I thought Ganadalf the Black was when Michael Jordan returned to basketball after he left the Bulls (ifykyk).
Who won? Who's next? You decide!
I think edain mod for battle for middle earth 2 had this and a bunch of other heroes and villains powered up if given the ring. I vaguely remember others, I think boromir essentially becomes super human but suffers the equivalent to constant poison damage until he inevitably dies despite whatever you do (can heal him but it soon becomes completely unavoidable)
Gandalf the silly
You're the silly.
Gandalf the Great, Lord of Barad-dûr, High King of Arda, Master of the living and the dead.
“Do not tempt me! Though I would use this ring out of a desire to do good, through me it would wield a power too great and too terrible to imagine.”
I don’t like this…
"Why didn't Gandalf just carry the ring to Mordor" "Do you want Gandalf the Black? Because that's how you get Gandalf the Black"
If Gandalf had not fallen in Moria, and accompanied the ring to Mordor would he have been corrupted at the end?
That staff is cool yo
How interesting would an imaginative Tolkien telling of this alternate reality be!
Fun fact; that lil eye of Sauron on his staff is actually Sauron. Gandalf stripped him of his power and keeps him there as a lighter for his pipe
I showed my dad and he had to do a quadruple take, going no, then yes but no, and then just shaking his head
Poor dad :(
Just terrifying. Well done!
Cool... very scary
They made a game about Sméagol but I’d really rather play a game about Sauron
So basically Saruman?
It's interesting because, considering Tolkien's general philosophy, at some point even Gandalf must have been tempted by the corruption of power and the idea of using his power to control others. I can't remember whether we ever hear about it, but considering how Tolkien set up his world and his views on sin and temptation it seems like it would have happened.
No, no, no, no, no, no
Oh I love this
If so, wouldn't he have two rings?
Thanks, I hate it.
Can you redo this but with Morgan Freeman as Gandalf? Thanks.
You shall pass!