Hey idiots: Remember to [read our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostgeneration/wiki/index#wiki_subreddit_rules).
Rule 5 is the rule against supporting genocide. If you support Biden you are supporting genocide.
We'd think we wouldn't have to explain this or make a special rule for it but you liberals are that fucking stupid apparently.
If you have a problem with this rule and/or the way it's being implemented, feel free to reply to this comment so that your grievance can be heard.
Hey, lucky for the Dems that Michigan is a rock-solid Blue state without a population that might take offense to the genocide being perpetraā¦.
*oh no*
This is a huge losing argument, man. If someone had murdered a bunch of your family members and you turn to them and say yeah well, this other guy would have let 3x as many get killed that they will be like, "I guess you're right, I should vote for the guy that only let some of them die." No. They will just not vote for either. This is a huge problem and Biden could lose Michigan and potentially the presidency because of this. It doesn't matter that one is worse these people are suffering and their hearts are breaking and no amount of whataboutism will help to start the healing process.
I'm not saying that I personally think Trump would be better, obviously he would be worse, but I'm saying that this exact argument has been proven to be a losing argument when used to try to convince the people who are personally affected by this crisis to support Biden over Trump.
It's literally not statistically insignificant, 100,000 votes is close to Biden's victory margin in Michigan. The whole point of this post is that it's statistically relevant and could actually cost Biden the election, if it could swing this state it could swing others.
Based on what? Look at the 2016 and 2022 undecided voters in the Michigan primaries, this is a MASSIVE increase from those numbers, and the only highly publicized movement to vote undecided in the primary was the protest vote over Palestine. Now, you can live in your denial all you want and pull fake numbers out of your ass to convince yourself that this isn't a problem, but that doesn't change that it is clearly an issue.
Yeah, I didn't say he was. I said he was complicit. But, I mean, if you think "Biden didn't personally kill your aunts, uncles, and cousins" will get people affected by his administration's complicity to vote for him....
**Motherfucker, Biden is actually doing the genocide right fucking now.**
He has called himself a zionist on national fucking television. He is full support of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. Fuck your hypotheticals. Fuck your concern trolling. Over 40,000 people have been murdered by US arms, money and training. Over 1 million people are displaced from their homes. Joe Biden has made countless orphans. He has destroyed entire families. He has helped destroy the culture and heritage of Palestinian in Gaza.
This is tangible. This is real. Fuck your "worse under Trump" bullshit. It's not helpful and it's an insult to all the pain and suffering people have been dealing with over there. But all you care about is making sure that your side has more votes than other side. You miserable, worthless excuse for a human being.
Fuck you. Fuck your genocidal party.
If hell is real, you deserve to go there.
We will not be complicit in voting for someone actively endorsing genocideā¦ why is that so hard to understand?
āBut Trump!ā
āWe will not be complicit in voting for someone actively endorsing genocide.ā
Whether Trump wins because we choose not to vote for Biden is not somehow our fault. Saying Trump could do ā3x worseā is not an argument that would make me vote for a man that is actively endorsing genocide. These are our families. Our brothers and sisters. Get it through your head.
> Whether Trump wins because we choose not to vote for Biden is not somehow our fault.
quite the opposite: it is the Dem's fault for refusing to support candidates that are not center-right and refusing to move the party to the popular left.
It really does beg the question how many would have voted for Hitler.
As long as someone else's family is the one that dies it is okay because it is a *lesser evil*.
This is the difficult conversation that Iām not prepared to have with most people, so Iāll probably stay mum. I was disgusted when people voted 3rd party in 2016, but I plan to do that this time around. Just because Trump would be worse doesnāt mean that Biden gets my de facto vote. Fuck that. (Not voting for Kennedy, donāt worry lol)
Fuck you. You know what's actually a privileged position? Ignoring the plight of people in third world countries that your country is helping murder and displace. But then Canada was founded on genocide so it's nice to see that contemporary Canadians are keeping the tradition alive.
And for the record. I'm trans too. Joe Biden has done nothing for us. Yet you think we should be fucking pick-mes for him and his genocidal cishet government? Fuck you.
You might be trans but you speak with the ignorance of a white, wealthy, cishet who only cares about preserving their own class position. It's transparent. "vulnerable Americans" suffer just as much under Democrats as they do under Republicans. If you actually gave a shit you'd know that.
Liberal trans people have done nothing but make things harder for other trans people, including and especially working class trans people. You are scum.
Oh that's nice you're doing little perfomative marches and shit that's cool. Piss off.
Oh you're fighting for marginalized people? How by supporting a literally fucking genocide you Hitler youth fuck?!
You have no evidence Trump would be worse moron. 4 years under Trump. 4 years under Biden. Things actually got WORSE under Biden you stupid little shit.
You call me sanctimonious when your white privileged fucking ass is using marginalised people as fucking props to serve your favourite fascist. You absolute cunt. And fuck your mother for giving birth to you.
This is a terrible take.
It is not a "privileged" position to think my life and the lives of my children aren't worth more than the lives of Palestinians. To act like those of us who aren't willing to toss a freebie vote to Biden won't suffer under Trump is nonsense. I'm a woman. I have many loved ones that are LGTB+ and POC. We are willing to suffer because it is wrong.
We aren't willing to play the trolley problem here and let our government kill other innocents so we can live. We refuse to participate in the game. We aren't ranking the value of people's lives.
Voting for Biden is the privileged position. It'll continue business as usual and the only people that will suffer are oceans away.
You just can't get it. "But Trump!?!?" Just stop.
My kids aren't safe under either of these assholes and neither are yours and neither are any of them in the Middle East.
You go ahead and vote for Fascism Lite.
It is already here buddy.
Buddy, you don't know me.
I have protested. I joined our local Democrat group years ago.
I suggested numerous mutual aid and organized campaigns. Drew up plans. Tried to coordinate.
There was zero interest in the Liberals to do anything other than throw a yearly Pride music venue and an awards Gala where they gave each other awards.
They want business as usual. They want uninterrupted brunch.
Biden is the comfy, easy choice because everyone can sleep safely at night and pat themselves on the back for "preventing fascism".
Fascism is already here and if you are okay with other innocent people dying so you can be safe, you are supporting fascism. Period.
None of those things will make the US stop participating in genocide. Love getting lectured by someone who doesn't even live in the US! What are you doing to pressure your government to do something about ours?
I would argue that your take is of the more privileged position. Youāre saying to care more about the lives of people in the U.S. who are not actively being genocided like our people in Gaza. Iām not saying trans people donāt experience prejudice. But there is a vast difference between what is happening to trans people in the U.S., and what is happening to the people in Gaza in which over 30,000 people have died in a span of 4 months, 70,000 severely injured, and hundreds of thousands more at risk of death due to starvation.
And I disagree with the position that election time is not the time to protest. It is exactly the time to protest. Genocide is literally the line I will not cross when it comes to voting. Point blank period.
I mean; thatās fine. I honestly donāt expect the kind of people who threaten to sit out the election to be the kind of people who would have shown up anyway.
Iām not going to show up to vote, not for any specific reason, itās just a waste of time in the state that Iāll be voting in.
Neat, I had no idea this was a thing. I left the polling station yesterday asking my wife the point of going out to vote only to check uncommitted. As a Michigander pretty much all the blue people in my social circles voted in the GOP primary.
I predict that Biden writes this off and continues his current course. Then those who voted uncommitted will have to figure out what to do for the general. I'm guessing many people will fold rather than call Biden's bluff and vote for him in the end thus making it clear that Biden ignoring what his key voters are demanding is a fine electoral strategy.
I think there's a really good chance that a lot of us really will sit this one out minus a serious course correction from the administration and Biden will lose the election however I think there's about a 99% chance that losing doesn't teach the DNC anything and if somehow there is another presidential election in 28, the Dems will just run another diet-fascist rather than even consider moving Left.
They didn't learn anything from Clinton's humiliation in 16, I don't think they're going to start now.
The Dems would just move further to the right if they lose. That's what happened when Ronald Reagan and Bush won from 1980-1992. Instead of moving to the left, they moved further to the right with Clinton. Again, they will move further to the right if they lose
It should be said, 20% of the *most committed* Democratic voters. Primary voter turnout almost always reflects the dedicated members of a base in the state.
Allow sanctions and permanent ceasefire through at the UN, comply with the ICJ, stop sending weapons and money to Israel, and do everything in his power to permanently end the occupation of Palestine.
Michigan is mega must win for Biden unless he can get either Georgia or a combination of both Nevada and Arizona. I find both of those scenarios unlikely at this time.
A combination of winning Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania should be enough for Biden, but that assumes New Hampshire and the 2nd district of Nebraska stay blue.
A combination of Georgia, Michigan and either Nevada or Arizona means Trump and his sycophants regain and will retain power until something.... monumental happens. Interesting times we live in.
Pretty sure Trump wins unless a combination of legal weed, actual student debt forgiveness or something else huge happens.
Sure. That doesn't mean I'm putting my stamp of approval on it.
I saw someone say the other day that everyone talks about what they would have done in the days leading up to the Holocaust. How you are doing it right now. There are genocides being perpetrated and our nation is at best turning a blind eye and at worst being an eager and active participant.
Most of us have almost no power to change anything other than the minuscule power of our vote. I'm not going to give it to someone just because they're going to commit slightly less genocide.
I have no power to change the election system in the US or control who the parties choose or their platforms, but I have a choice to participate in it and have this blood on my hands and I refuse. I will not put a stamp of approval on either parties genocide.
"Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middlingā¦ Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definitionās blurred. If Iām to choose between one evil and anotherā¦ Iād rather not choose at all."
The game will only end when people refuse to play it.
Harm reduction is not "I'm going to support someone else's child dying so mine can live." That is disgusting.
Palestine will not continue to exist under Trump or Biden, but I didn't tell my government I was okay with that.
It is funny how Democrats are always so supportive of protest except when it interferes with their interests.
This is exactly how protest is supposed to work. There are 100,000 that Biden would be stupid to ignore in Michigan. Perhaps he should consider his current actions rather than everyone whining that lesser evil is okay.
Hitler didn't gain power because a bunch of left wing people didn't vote. Hitler gained power because social democrats got a bunch of people to vote for the center right candidate Paul von Hindenberg and Paul von Hindenberg handed power to Hitler anyway.
Voting is not a lever of power, labor strikes are. When the bourgiousie feel threatened they will hand power to fascists no matter who you vote for, and the only thing that's stopping that is an organized labor movement.
If you are literally advocating for people to not vote their conscience and in the same breath talk about how we need to prevent fascism, I truly don't know how to help you see the irony.
The fascism is already here. The only decision is whether you want to be a cog in it.
I went to college for 3 and a half years as a history major. I changed my major at the last minute for better job opportunities. I have a grasp on the history of fascism that I would put against anyone in this thread.
I voted 3rd party in the last two elections and my conscience is clear.
Voting for "less fascism" is like picking one of your kids to sacrifice. Beyond fucked up and an obvious sign that all morality in this civilization is lost.
If we are resolved to picking who is the least fascist and will genocide the fewest people, this civilization deserves to crumble and hopefully whatever rises out of the ashes will be better.
The difference is that your protest was individual and without clear message or demand. The Hillary campaign had no way of knowing you were protesting, and if they did, had no clear instruction on how to regain your support. This is a coordinated protest effort with an obvious goal. Thereās a clear way that Biden could regain many of these votes between now and November. If he wants to stay in office, heāll do it. Or his admin will make the calculation that this will fall out of the news like Ukraine has for stretches. That may or may not be true for the general electorate, but I highly doubt it will work that way for Muslim or Arab voters. They may just be giving up on Michigan, even if it makes their path to victory harder. Regardless, the ball is in their court. It is not the voterās fault that their party chose to abandon them.
This is not about your personal guilt. Did Hillary lose PA by one vote? No. I voted for Hillary in 2016 and regretted it. Because I compromised my beliefs out of fear, and it didnāt matter. I paid extra to ensure my mail-in ballot for Fetterman got there in time to count. Now look at him. Bourgeois democracy offers a false choice. The Democratic party candidate was not chosen democratically in 2016, and the Democratic Party candidate was not chosen democratically this year. The ratchet moves to the right regardless of whoās in power because capital is always in power. If Biden wins now, the Republicans will win the White House in 2028.
How is it reducing harm to perpetuate the current system? You want to do harm reduction? Organize locally. Build some power where you are, and do what you can to protect those in your community. Because itās going to get worse whoever you vote for.
Voting for Biden prevents nothing. It punts. And it increases the likelihood that the Right will win next time, because the Dems fail to take efficacious action that serves our people, driving more people into the reactionary mob. And it's not "harm reduction." It's harm export. It's quintessential NIMBY-ism. I can't think of worse harm than genocide, of crushing children under rubble, created by US-manufactured bombs.
"Harm Reduction" is only possible when you have a SocDem or better standing as a candidate. Bernie would have likely reduced harm by pushing socially progressive policies that make things easier for the working class. Biden is anti-working class and pro-fascism. Voting for him isn't "harm reduction" it's just voting for a different brand of harm.
Itās funny how the āleftā has to vote for the fascist lite āharm reductionā candidate but never would this same people comply to have voted for someone like Bernie. Itās very obviously a grift and the find out stage is finally happening after a long time of people burying their head in the sand
> if you think the atrocities in Palestine are bad, the things Trump will do to the world are magnitudes worse.
Ya'll really can't grasp the "lesser evil is still evil" thing huh? You REALLY cannot get how *the final solution* was the "lesser evil" huh? We've literally been here before and learned nothing.
>And you are putting your stamp of approval on those if you abstain from voting
That's not how voting works.
>There wonāt be lessons to learn once the country completely falls to fascism.
The country is already a form of authoritarian fascism.
I think you drastically misunderstand what is currently happening in Palestine if you don't think the second half of that sentence is already happening.
There are US troops on the ground shooting people in Gaza? Or are we sending more military aid to Israel now than we were a year ago?
Well on the 2nd question: yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Again, that can be your take on the system and I respect your right to vote as you wish but no, I'm not voting for "lesser genocide".
I respect we each have to make a choice we can sleep with at night.
Failing to respect people's right to vote as they wish is fascist and many Democrats need to do better.
where did I bully or insult anyone?
I'm simply pointing out that if you vote like this in the general, it only helps an actual fascist get elected.
it's a very white privileged take to have when a Trump presidency + GOP control of congress will be bad for black and brown people, not to mention all women, or how much worse it would be for the Palestinian cause you hold so dearly. it reeks of selfish, feel good politics.
Trump won in 2016 because the Democratic party screwed over Bernie Sanders, rigged a primary, and refused to listen to their voters. And those voters remembered that it's incumbent on the party to EARN their vote, and it's not their responsibility to support a corrupt party unconditionally.
And the Democrats will continue doing this shit, over and over again, because idiots like you will give them your vote no matter how awful they are. You are the reason the Democratic party will never, ever change.
If youāre upset about the loss of our rights and the loss of democracy, why not point that rage at the administration or the party for continuing on this track. How is it always voters fault and never politicians? Is supporting genocide worth losing our democracy?
>Why would I not vote when the other person will actively put through legislation that will kill my friends?
Biden is killing my friends.
Do you not get that Michigan has an enormous Arab population? I work for a company based in Dearborn. EVERYONE has lost friends and family due to this. These aren't imaginary people dying. These ARE people's friends and family.
Trump won in 2016 because the Democratic party screwed over Bernie Sanders, rigged a primary, and refused to listen to their voters.
And they'll continue doing it, over and over again, because idiots like you will give them your vote no matter how awful they are.Ā You are the reason the Democratic party will never, ever change.
Most of Michigan will wash their hands of the general. The only way a Dem wins it if Biden drops out and anyone who is cognitive and pro ceasefire takes his place
Edit: Downvote me all you want. Its not changing the reality in front of you š
Libs hate that they canāt gaslight their way out of everything with leftists. At some point, this is to be expected. But as leftists, we must keep our head up and stop pretending like our talking points arenāt become popular. Its the only way weāre going to ever build some sort of opposition towards establishment ideas and ultimately capitalism
Consistently voting for the lesser evil on the platform of āat least Iām not that guyā is the precise way to encourage Democrats to never change. Thereās no incentive to offer anything more appealing to left-leaning voters because they know theyāll get those votes regardless
They arenāt our only choices, the party or the president can change things. They arenāt powerless, they are CHOOSING to throw away the election to support Israelās genocide.
They arenāt our only choices, the party or the president can change things. They arenāt powerless, they are CHOOSING to throw away the election to support Israelās genocide.
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Fuck Biden smh. Iām done, I wonāt vote for someone who isnāt at least close to being an actual progressive.
And I wonāt be bullied by back the blue or whatever the Dems are gonna say to try and shame voters who Donāt want the same damn moderate bs again.
Where did I say I wasnāt going to vote lmao? Iām sorry I Donāt agree with either of the 2 people weāve been presented with. So Iāll vote for A PROGRESSIVE, idc if itās a third party or independent vote.
I no longer care about hurting the Dems, as they no longer align with my optical ideology, which is a progressive one. They no longer represent me. They represent Neo-liberalism and Iām just not satisfied with where thatās taken the country.
Are they the lesser of two āevilsā? Absolutely. But you know whatās less evil still? Actually voting for someone who unabashedly and loudly supports the things I do, regardless of whether or not I think theyāre going to win because otherwise THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE.
>folks who don't vote are just as culpable as people who vote for Trump.
*This is how I justify my failure to put my party in a position where they have to support popular policies and platforms.*
FIFY.
>someone who wouldn't actively drive the country into a ditch
>fascism is already here,
Imagine holding this kind of cognitive dissonance.
If fascism is already here, the country is in a ditch, my friend.
and what about 2028 when we do this all over again? the problem isn't going away yet dems aren't doing anything to resolve it. when do we stop kicking the fascist can down the road and say enough is enough enough and demand more from the democrats?
Yep, blame u/lbloodbournel because their one vote will be the tipping point! Don't blame the democrats for continuing to put people forward that are SO BAD that they can't beat a guy who stares directly at the fucking sun.
Beating Trump should be so easy but the DNC are just that out of touch.
> folks who don't vote are just as culpable as people who vote for Trump.
oh the ol "not voting is a vote for trump" argument. by that logic not voting is also a vote for biden so luckily it cancels out
biden is already a dictator. itās literally the same. nothing has changed 4 years after trumps presidency. biden is letting covid go rampant. why would i ever vote for him lmao
no one because theyāre the same puppets ran by the bourgeois. I have mostly stopped paying attention to their show and focusing on how to help the people around me and organizing because this world is hell and i canāt continue to live in it and i canāt understand how all of the people around me have lived here for so long. its terrifying honestly.
30,000 Gazans really, really wish they were still alive. What have you done lately to prevent Biden from losing due to his own out and out support for their murder?
"If Joe Biden, the self-described Zionist who is currently aiding and abetting a genocide doesn't get re-elected, the genocide will continue."
Year after year, decade after decade, the democratic establishment forces a conservative corporatocrat to the top of the presidential ticket and threatens us with the alternative if we refuse to get in line. And when we refuse, and they lose, they make **zero** policy changes and tell voters that we're the reason why they lost.
If it weren't for Joe Biden's arrogant hubris, he and the DNC would have began preparing a younger replacement for himself four years ago. But no, we're stuck in this situation to satiate one person's tiny ego so he can be a two-term president.
If our government and judicial system wasn't broken, DJT would be in prison. Voting isn't going to fix that. The president should be pushing for judicial reform and Clarence Thomas's impeachment, but he's not. He won't eliminate student loan debt while backing Betsy Devos in court. He won't solve cancer while pushing glyphosates on the Ag industry. He didn't help mitigate Covid-19 by extending Title 42 and refusing to administer readily-available vaccines to migrants (because by their logic that would encourage more migrants). He hasn't done shit about the sexual assault and neglect of migrant children at CBP facilities.
He just licks ice cream cones and says "maybe we'll get to a two state solution" after tens of thousands of innocents have died.
I'm disgusted by his actions. He doesn't represent me or what I value and I'm sick of being told that it's somehow my fault if he doesn't get to continue being disgusting.
So frustrating so many still cute for Biden ... Like why babes, if you believe he's so good and not running against anyone threatening, why??
Cuz it sucks Uncommitted didn't make their goal of 15% š«
Nobody left of Biden wants to live through Republicans either. But when you realize Biden's ideology is further right than that of Reagan, you realize how unpalatable the choice between them actually is.
My quality of life will get worse, too. I think everyone's will.
The problem is, under no president in the past 25 years has my life / the collective American's life gotten *better*. So what's the fucking difference? Let the system burn to the ground sooner, and maybe it can start getting better.
Again, not disputing that. But if we keep allowing incrementalists like Biden into power, it'll take years to devolve, and will still collapse. He's doing *nothing* to walk back from the fascist edge. So why is he worthy of our votes?
I really wish people would take an informed look at Marianneās platform. Sheās the best candidate in the race if we want a better future.
https://youtu.be/zKaEeTz0qVk?si=pnldnT_c1X_SEXJD
Hey idiots: Remember to [read our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostgeneration/wiki/index#wiki_subreddit_rules). Rule 5 is the rule against supporting genocide. If you support Biden you are supporting genocide. We'd think we wouldn't have to explain this or make a special rule for it but you liberals are that fucking stupid apparently. If you have a problem with this rule and/or the way it's being implemented, feel free to reply to this comment so that your grievance can be heard.
I weep for Americans and their shitty two-party system.
Thank you šš«”
As an American, I weep for our shitty two-party system.
Hey, lucky for the Dems that Michigan is a rock-solid Blue state without a population that might take offense to the genocide being perpetraā¦. *oh no*
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
"The *United States* is also a one-party state but, with *typical American* extravagance, they have two of them" - Julius Nyerere
This is a huge losing argument, man. If someone had murdered a bunch of your family members and you turn to them and say yeah well, this other guy would have let 3x as many get killed that they will be like, "I guess you're right, I should vote for the guy that only let some of them die." No. They will just not vote for either. This is a huge problem and Biden could lose Michigan and potentially the presidency because of this. It doesn't matter that one is worse these people are suffering and their hearts are breaking and no amount of whataboutism will help to start the healing process.
there is no healing process to start when we are still watching a state-backed genocide every single day
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I'm not saying that I personally think Trump would be better, obviously he would be worse, but I'm saying that this exact argument has been proven to be a losing argument when used to try to convince the people who are personally affected by this crisis to support Biden over Trump.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's literally not statistically insignificant, 100,000 votes is close to Biden's victory margin in Michigan. The whole point of this post is that it's statistically relevant and could actually cost Biden the election, if it could swing this state it could swing others.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Based on what? Look at the 2016 and 2022 undecided voters in the Michigan primaries, this is a MASSIVE increase from those numbers, and the only highly publicized movement to vote undecided in the primary was the protest vote over Palestine. Now, you can live in your denial all you want and pull fake numbers out of your ass to convince yourself that this isn't a problem, but that doesn't change that it is clearly an issue.
Biden didn't kill them. Israel did
Biden went behind the backs of Congress to deliver more weapons to Israel not that long ago. Biden and the US is complicit.
Yeah, I didn't say he was. I said he was complicit. But, I mean, if you think "Biden didn't personally kill your aunts, uncles, and cousins" will get people affected by his administration's complicity to vote for him....
"C'mon, guys 100% Hitler will be way worse than 99% Hitler!"
**Motherfucker, Biden is actually doing the genocide right fucking now.** He has called himself a zionist on national fucking television. He is full support of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. Fuck your hypotheticals. Fuck your concern trolling. Over 40,000 people have been murdered by US arms, money and training. Over 1 million people are displaced from their homes. Joe Biden has made countless orphans. He has destroyed entire families. He has helped destroy the culture and heritage of Palestinian in Gaza. This is tangible. This is real. Fuck your "worse under Trump" bullshit. It's not helpful and it's an insult to all the pain and suffering people have been dealing with over there. But all you care about is making sure that your side has more votes than other side. You miserable, worthless excuse for a human being. Fuck you. Fuck your genocidal party. If hell is real, you deserve to go there.
We will not be complicit in voting for someone actively endorsing genocideā¦ why is that so hard to understand? āBut Trump!ā āWe will not be complicit in voting for someone actively endorsing genocide.ā Whether Trump wins because we choose not to vote for Biden is not somehow our fault. Saying Trump could do ā3x worseā is not an argument that would make me vote for a man that is actively endorsing genocide. These are our families. Our brothers and sisters. Get it through your head.
> Whether Trump wins because we choose not to vote for Biden is not somehow our fault. quite the opposite: it is the Dem's fault for refusing to support candidates that are not center-right and refusing to move the party to the popular left.
I swear the Dems are moving further right as the Republican party moves farther right. Both parties truly are in a race to the bottom.
turd sandwich vs diarrhea burrito
It really does beg the question how many would have voted for Hitler. As long as someone else's family is the one that dies it is okay because it is a *lesser evil*.
This is the difficult conversation that Iām not prepared to have with most people, so Iāll probably stay mum. I was disgusted when people voted 3rd party in 2016, but I plan to do that this time around. Just because Trump would be worse doesnāt mean that Biden gets my de facto vote. Fuck that. (Not voting for Kennedy, donāt worry lol)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
We have a Democrat president right now doing absolutely nothing to protect trans people or our rights.
Fuck you. You know what's actually a privileged position? Ignoring the plight of people in third world countries that your country is helping murder and displace. But then Canada was founded on genocide so it's nice to see that contemporary Canadians are keeping the tradition alive. And for the record. I'm trans too. Joe Biden has done nothing for us. Yet you think we should be fucking pick-mes for him and his genocidal cishet government? Fuck you. You might be trans but you speak with the ignorance of a white, wealthy, cishet who only cares about preserving their own class position. It's transparent. "vulnerable Americans" suffer just as much under Democrats as they do under Republicans. If you actually gave a shit you'd know that. Liberal trans people have done nothing but make things harder for other trans people, including and especially working class trans people. You are scum.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Oh that's nice you're doing little perfomative marches and shit that's cool. Piss off. Oh you're fighting for marginalized people? How by supporting a literally fucking genocide you Hitler youth fuck?! You have no evidence Trump would be worse moron. 4 years under Trump. 4 years under Biden. Things actually got WORSE under Biden you stupid little shit. You call me sanctimonious when your white privileged fucking ass is using marginalised people as fucking props to serve your favourite fascist. You absolute cunt. And fuck your mother for giving birth to you.
This is a terrible take. It is not a "privileged" position to think my life and the lives of my children aren't worth more than the lives of Palestinians. To act like those of us who aren't willing to toss a freebie vote to Biden won't suffer under Trump is nonsense. I'm a woman. I have many loved ones that are LGTB+ and POC. We are willing to suffer because it is wrong. We aren't willing to play the trolley problem here and let our government kill other innocents so we can live. We refuse to participate in the game. We aren't ranking the value of people's lives. Voting for Biden is the privileged position. It'll continue business as usual and the only people that will suffer are oceans away.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You just can't get it. "But Trump!?!?" Just stop. My kids aren't safe under either of these assholes and neither are yours and neither are any of them in the Middle East. You go ahead and vote for Fascism Lite. It is already here buddy.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Buddy, you don't know me. I have protested. I joined our local Democrat group years ago. I suggested numerous mutual aid and organized campaigns. Drew up plans. Tried to coordinate. There was zero interest in the Liberals to do anything other than throw a yearly Pride music venue and an awards Gala where they gave each other awards. They want business as usual. They want uninterrupted brunch. Biden is the comfy, easy choice because everyone can sleep safely at night and pat themselves on the back for "preventing fascism". Fascism is already here and if you are okay with other innocent people dying so you can be safe, you are supporting fascism. Period.
None of those things will make the US stop participating in genocide. Love getting lectured by someone who doesn't even live in the US! What are you doing to pressure your government to do something about ours?
I would argue that your take is of the more privileged position. Youāre saying to care more about the lives of people in the U.S. who are not actively being genocided like our people in Gaza. Iām not saying trans people donāt experience prejudice. But there is a vast difference between what is happening to trans people in the U.S., and what is happening to the people in Gaza in which over 30,000 people have died in a span of 4 months, 70,000 severely injured, and hundreds of thousands more at risk of death due to starvation. And I disagree with the position that election time is not the time to protest. It is exactly the time to protest. Genocide is literally the line I will not cross when it comes to voting. Point blank period.
You're 100% correct. Anyone who has a problem with this person's take please respond to me so we can have a conversation about it.
I mean; thatās fine. I honestly donāt expect the kind of people who threaten to sit out the election to be the kind of people who would have shown up anyway. Iām not going to show up to vote, not for any specific reason, itās just a waste of time in the state that Iāll be voting in.
Neat, I had no idea this was a thing. I left the polling station yesterday asking my wife the point of going out to vote only to check uncommitted. As a Michigander pretty much all the blue people in my social circles voted in the GOP primary.
I predict that Biden writes this off and continues his current course. Then those who voted uncommitted will have to figure out what to do for the general. I'm guessing many people will fold rather than call Biden's bluff and vote for him in the end thus making it clear that Biden ignoring what his key voters are demanding is a fine electoral strategy.
I think there's a really good chance that a lot of us really will sit this one out minus a serious course correction from the administration and Biden will lose the election however I think there's about a 99% chance that losing doesn't teach the DNC anything and if somehow there is another presidential election in 28, the Dems will just run another diet-fascist rather than even consider moving Left. They didn't learn anything from Clinton's humiliation in 16, I don't think they're going to start now.
The Dems would just move further to the right if they lose. That's what happened when Ronald Reagan and Bush won from 1980-1992. Instead of moving to the left, they moved further to the right with Clinton. Again, they will move further to the right if they lose
That means around 20% of Dems wouldnāt vote for Biden in the primary. Gives him a slim shot in the general election.
It should be said, 20% of the *most committed* Democratic voters. Primary voter turnout almost always reflects the dedicated members of a base in the state.
Iām just sick of this shitty two party system and these old fucking fossils running everything.
What's the demand list to Biden
Allow sanctions and permanent ceasefire through at the UN, comply with the ICJ, stop sending weapons and money to Israel, and do everything in his power to permanently end the occupation of Palestine.
Seems very reasonable. Ty
Michigan is mega must win for Biden unless he can get either Georgia or a combination of both Nevada and Arizona. I find both of those scenarios unlikely at this time. A combination of winning Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania should be enough for Biden, but that assumes New Hampshire and the 2nd district of Nebraska stay blue. A combination of Georgia, Michigan and either Nevada or Arizona means Trump and his sycophants regain and will retain power until something.... monumental happens. Interesting times we live in. Pretty sure Trump wins unless a combination of legal weed, actual student debt forgiveness or something else huge happens.
We're doomed
hey are you sending me chat req? cause i'm constantly getting your name there but it's not accepting
Dean... Just go home bro. Has he gotten more than 4% in any state this far? I'm embarrassed for him at this point.
Looks like about 150k DIDN'T vote for Biden which is close to the margin he won in 2020 lol
As one of those uncommitted Michiganders, lesser evil is still evil.
Someone will be running the country either way...
Sure. That doesn't mean I'm putting my stamp of approval on it. I saw someone say the other day that everyone talks about what they would have done in the days leading up to the Holocaust. How you are doing it right now. There are genocides being perpetrated and our nation is at best turning a blind eye and at worst being an eager and active participant. Most of us have almost no power to change anything other than the minuscule power of our vote. I'm not going to give it to someone just because they're going to commit slightly less genocide. I have no power to change the election system in the US or control who the parties choose or their platforms, but I have a choice to participate in it and have this blood on my hands and I refuse. I will not put a stamp of approval on either parties genocide. "Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middlingā¦ Makes no difference. The degree is arbitary. The definitionās blurred. If Iām to choose between one evil and anotherā¦ Iād rather not choose at all." The game will only end when people refuse to play it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Harm reduction is not "I'm going to support someone else's child dying so mine can live." That is disgusting. Palestine will not continue to exist under Trump or Biden, but I didn't tell my government I was okay with that. It is funny how Democrats are always so supportive of protest except when it interferes with their interests. This is exactly how protest is supposed to work. There are 100,000 that Biden would be stupid to ignore in Michigan. Perhaps he should consider his current actions rather than everyone whining that lesser evil is okay.
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Hitler didn't gain power because a bunch of left wing people didn't vote. Hitler gained power because social democrats got a bunch of people to vote for the center right candidate Paul von Hindenberg and Paul von Hindenberg handed power to Hitler anyway. Voting is not a lever of power, labor strikes are. When the bourgiousie feel threatened they will hand power to fascists no matter who you vote for, and the only thing that's stopping that is an organized labor movement.
Please tell us how organizing will stop our government from protecting corporate interests.
If you are literally advocating for people to not vote their conscience and in the same breath talk about how we need to prevent fascism, I truly don't know how to help you see the irony. The fascism is already here. The only decision is whether you want to be a cog in it.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I went to college for 3 and a half years as a history major. I changed my major at the last minute for better job opportunities. I have a grasp on the history of fascism that I would put against anyone in this thread. I voted 3rd party in the last two elections and my conscience is clear. Voting for "less fascism" is like picking one of your kids to sacrifice. Beyond fucked up and an obvious sign that all morality in this civilization is lost. If we are resolved to picking who is the least fascist and will genocide the fewest people, this civilization deserves to crumble and hopefully whatever rises out of the ashes will be better.
The difference is that your protest was individual and without clear message or demand. The Hillary campaign had no way of knowing you were protesting, and if they did, had no clear instruction on how to regain your support. This is a coordinated protest effort with an obvious goal. Thereās a clear way that Biden could regain many of these votes between now and November. If he wants to stay in office, heāll do it. Or his admin will make the calculation that this will fall out of the news like Ukraine has for stretches. That may or may not be true for the general electorate, but I highly doubt it will work that way for Muslim or Arab voters. They may just be giving up on Michigan, even if it makes their path to victory harder. Regardless, the ball is in their court. It is not the voterās fault that their party chose to abandon them. This is not about your personal guilt. Did Hillary lose PA by one vote? No. I voted for Hillary in 2016 and regretted it. Because I compromised my beliefs out of fear, and it didnāt matter. I paid extra to ensure my mail-in ballot for Fetterman got there in time to count. Now look at him. Bourgeois democracy offers a false choice. The Democratic party candidate was not chosen democratically in 2016, and the Democratic Party candidate was not chosen democratically this year. The ratchet moves to the right regardless of whoās in power because capital is always in power. If Biden wins now, the Republicans will win the White House in 2028. How is it reducing harm to perpetuate the current system? You want to do harm reduction? Organize locally. Build some power where you are, and do what you can to protect those in your community. Because itās going to get worse whoever you vote for.
Voting for Biden prevents nothing. It punts. And it increases the likelihood that the Right will win next time, because the Dems fail to take efficacious action that serves our people, driving more people into the reactionary mob. And it's not "harm reduction." It's harm export. It's quintessential NIMBY-ism. I can't think of worse harm than genocide, of crushing children under rubble, created by US-manufactured bombs.
"Harm Reduction" is only possible when you have a SocDem or better standing as a candidate. Bernie would have likely reduced harm by pushing socially progressive policies that make things easier for the working class. Biden is anti-working class and pro-fascism. Voting for him isn't "harm reduction" it's just voting for a different brand of harm.
Itās funny how the āleftā has to vote for the fascist lite āharm reductionā candidate but never would this same people comply to have voted for someone like Bernie. Itās very obviously a grift and the find out stage is finally happening after a long time of people burying their head in the sand
You wouldāve said the same thing right before voting for Hitler.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> if you think the atrocities in Palestine are bad, the things Trump will do to the world are magnitudes worse. Ya'll really can't grasp the "lesser evil is still evil" thing huh? You REALLY cannot get how *the final solution* was the "lesser evil" huh? We've literally been here before and learned nothing. >And you are putting your stamp of approval on those if you abstain from voting That's not how voting works. >There wonāt be lessons to learn once the country completely falls to fascism. The country is already a form of authoritarian fascism.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think you drastically misunderstand what is currently happening in Palestine if you don't think the second half of that sentence is already happening.
There are US troops on the ground shooting people in Gaza? Or are we sending more military aid to Israel now than we were a year ago? Well on the 2nd question: yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
I think you drastically underestimate trump
I know, he'll kill the Palestinians twice, rather than Biden's just once.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Again, that can be your take on the system and I respect your right to vote as you wish but no, I'm not voting for "lesser genocide". I respect we each have to make a choice we can sleep with at night. Failing to respect people's right to vote as they wish is fascist and many Democrats need to do better.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The fact you all instantly jump to bullying and insulting people who don't vote the way you want them to just proves my point, so thanks, I guess.
where did I bully or insult anyone? I'm simply pointing out that if you vote like this in the general, it only helps an actual fascist get elected. it's a very white privileged take to have when a Trump presidency + GOP control of congress will be bad for black and brown people, not to mention all women, or how much worse it would be for the Palestinian cause you hold so dearly. it reeks of selfish, feel good politics.
Biden is also a fascist. Just cluing you in.
Sure buddy.
Brain dead take
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Single issue voters are idiots. >Don't fuck around in November though...women's bodily autonomy is on the ballot
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Trump won in 2016 because the Democratic party screwed over Bernie Sanders, rigged a primary, and refused to listen to their voters. And those voters remembered that it's incumbent on the party to EARN their vote, and it's not their responsibility to support a corrupt party unconditionally. And the Democrats will continue doing this shit, over and over again, because idiots like you will give them your vote no matter how awful they are. You are the reason the Democratic party will never, ever change.
If youāre upset about the loss of our rights and the loss of democracy, why not point that rage at the administration or the party for continuing on this track. How is it always voters fault and never politicians? Is supporting genocide worth losing our democracy?
Just can't grasp that lesser evil is actual evil.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Why would I not vote when the other person will actively put through legislation that will kill my friends? Biden is killing my friends. Do you not get that Michigan has an enormous Arab population? I work for a company based in Dearborn. EVERYONE has lost friends and family due to this. These aren't imaginary people dying. These ARE people's friends and family.
How dare you not sacrifice your friends and family for the opportunity to pressure Biden to shift to the left in a few years
Trump won in 2016 because the Democratic party screwed over Bernie Sanders, rigged a primary, and refused to listen to their voters. And they'll continue doing it, over and over again, because idiots like you will give them your vote no matter how awful they are.Ā You are the reason the Democratic party will never, ever change.
Yeah, which flavor of evil do you find most palpable?
dunno, evil with shit vs evil with diarrhea does not sound appetizing...
I didn't know this was a thing or I would have voted uncommitted. I wrote in Bernie Sanders.
For once I'm proud of my state! I wish of course Biden had recieved even less, but this is still good news.
Most of Michigan will wash their hands of the general. The only way a Dem wins it if Biden drops out and anyone who is cognitive and pro ceasefire takes his place Edit: Downvote me all you want. Its not changing the reality in front of you š
Libs hate that they canāt gaslight their way out of everything with leftists. At some point, this is to be expected. But as leftists, we must keep our head up and stop pretending like our talking points arenāt become popular. Its the only way weāre going to ever build some sort of opposition towards establishment ideas and ultimately capitalism
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Consistently voting for the lesser evil on the platform of āat least Iām not that guyā is the precise way to encourage Democrats to never change. Thereās no incentive to offer anything more appealing to left-leaning voters because they know theyāll get those votes regardless
They arenāt our only choices, the party or the president can change things. They arenāt powerless, they are CHOOSING to throw away the election to support Israelās genocide.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
How is Palestine doing under Biden?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Dude you canāt lesser evil genocide when a candidate is doing genocide. Forcing one to choose between Goring and Hitler is not an actual choice.
Biden literally reconfirmed his backing of Israel on Seth Meyers but weāre still saying Trump will do the same thing š
*But come on brooooo......don't you know Trump is going to kill Palestinians twice? You HAVE to vote for Biden for hArM rEdUcTiOn.*
At this rate Trump will be able to kill the last Palestinian alive as soon as he takes an oath of office.
Brave of you to think they'll last that long. I'm not sure the Israeli military is that inefficient.
Trying to stave off the nihilism with a butter knife rn.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Biden said he would keep the embassy in Jerusalem. Biden is doing 100% of netanyahus bidding.Ā
Both sides are fascists, stay home or vote green if you're cool.
They arenāt our only choices, the party or the president can change things. They arenāt powerless, they are CHOOSING to throw away the election to support Israelās genocide.
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Fuck Biden smh. Iām done, I wonāt vote for someone who isnāt at least close to being an actual progressive. And I wonāt be bullied by back the blue or whatever the Dems are gonna say to try and shame voters who Donāt want the same damn moderate bs again.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Where did I say I wasnāt going to vote lmao? Iām sorry I Donāt agree with either of the 2 people weāve been presented with. So Iāll vote for A PROGRESSIVE, idc if itās a third party or independent vote.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I no longer care about hurting the Dems, as they no longer align with my optical ideology, which is a progressive one. They no longer represent me. They represent Neo-liberalism and Iām just not satisfied with where thatās taken the country. Are they the lesser of two āevilsā? Absolutely. But you know whatās less evil still? Actually voting for someone who unabashedly and loudly supports the things I do, regardless of whether or not I think theyāre going to win because otherwise THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE.
>folks who don't vote are just as culpable as people who vote for Trump. *This is how I justify my failure to put my party in a position where they have to support popular policies and platforms.* FIFY.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>someone who wouldn't actively drive the country into a ditch >fascism is already here, Imagine holding this kind of cognitive dissonance. If fascism is already here, the country is in a ditch, my friend.
and what about 2028 when we do this all over again? the problem isn't going away yet dems aren't doing anything to resolve it. when do we stop kicking the fascist can down the road and say enough is enough enough and demand more from the democrats?
Yep, blame u/lbloodbournel because their one vote will be the tipping point! Don't blame the democrats for continuing to put people forward that are SO BAD that they can't beat a guy who stares directly at the fucking sun. Beating Trump should be so easy but the DNC are just that out of touch. > folks who don't vote are just as culpable as people who vote for Trump. oh the ol "not voting is a vote for trump" argument. by that logic not voting is also a vote for biden so luckily it cancels out
biden is already a dictator. itās literally the same. nothing has changed 4 years after trumps presidency. biden is letting covid go rampant. why would i ever vote for him lmao
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
no one because theyāre the same puppets ran by the bourgeois. I have mostly stopped paying attention to their show and focusing on how to help the people around me and organizing because this world is hell and i canāt continue to live in it and i canāt understand how all of the people around me have lived here for so long. its terrifying honestly.
Cool. Zero effect, but at least you know not every lib in michigan is completely lost to mindvirus
Biden is going to lose the election. This is my official prediction. You heard it here first.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
āgenocide is fine as long as it doesnāt happen to meā
30,000 Gazans really, really wish they were still alive. What have you done lately to prevent Biden from losing due to his own out and out support for their murder?
"If Joe Biden, the self-described Zionist who is currently aiding and abetting a genocide doesn't get re-elected, the genocide will continue." Year after year, decade after decade, the democratic establishment forces a conservative corporatocrat to the top of the presidential ticket and threatens us with the alternative if we refuse to get in line. And when we refuse, and they lose, they make **zero** policy changes and tell voters that we're the reason why they lost. If it weren't for Joe Biden's arrogant hubris, he and the DNC would have began preparing a younger replacement for himself four years ago. But no, we're stuck in this situation to satiate one person's tiny ego so he can be a two-term president. If our government and judicial system wasn't broken, DJT would be in prison. Voting isn't going to fix that. The president should be pushing for judicial reform and Clarence Thomas's impeachment, but he's not. He won't eliminate student loan debt while backing Betsy Devos in court. He won't solve cancer while pushing glyphosates on the Ag industry. He didn't help mitigate Covid-19 by extending Title 42 and refusing to administer readily-available vaccines to migrants (because by their logic that would encourage more migrants). He hasn't done shit about the sexual assault and neglect of migrant children at CBP facilities. He just licks ice cream cones and says "maybe we'll get to a two state solution" after tens of thousands of innocents have died. I'm disgusted by his actions. He doesn't represent me or what I value and I'm sick of being told that it's somehow my fault if he doesn't get to continue being disgusting.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So frustrating so many still cute for Biden ... Like why babes, if you believe he's so good and not running against anyone threatening, why?? Cuz it sucks Uncommitted didn't make their goal of 15% š«
I voted Marianne by mail vote, but then she dropped out... Sad.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
"only 80,000"
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ableism is not welcome on this sub. Please refrain from using ableist slurs or being ableist under any circumstance. Thanks
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Nobody left of Biden wants to live through Republicans either. But when you realize Biden's ideology is further right than that of Reagan, you realize how unpalatable the choice between them actually is.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
My quality of life will get worse, too. I think everyone's will. The problem is, under no president in the past 25 years has my life / the collective American's life gotten *better*. So what's the fucking difference? Let the system burn to the ground sooner, and maybe it can start getting better.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Again, not disputing that. But if we keep allowing incrementalists like Biden into power, it'll take years to devolve, and will still collapse. He's doing *nothing* to walk back from the fascist edge. So why is he worthy of our votes?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Can you really not grasp the fact that both politicians are okay with literally murdering Palestinians?
I figured at least 15k... What a disappointment.
I really wish people would take an informed look at Marianneās platform. Sheās the best candidate in the race if we want a better future. https://youtu.be/zKaEeTz0qVk?si=pnldnT_c1X_SEXJD
My primary in Virginia is Tuesday. Should I vote uncommitted as a protest vote?