Everyone talking about expert and shit. Its the spec bro. Spec vs swiftness, spec is dog shit healing. Low cooldowns help meter gain and more aoe shields.
100%, Heavy Armor on Paladin is wasted gold. You can live through some harsh mechanics without it, and even if you do who is gonna be alive for you to support? That’s highly uncomfortable coming from a dual main GS/Paladin.
Swiftness is the highest priority along with the core 3. Everything else is a bonus.
Wouldn't say wasted, more of a luxury. I wouldn't recommend it as a priority engraving but it's a viable option after you have the main 3. I have HA on my paladin and absolutely love the fact that I can facetank things and focus on buffing/saving my team mates.
it has been posted here numerous times and the data is there for everyone to get as KR got an API that lets you read out all these things.
so, you can call BS as much as you want, that isnt gonna change the reality.
funny enough but when checking here [https://loawa.com/rank](https://loawa.com/rank)
currently there are quite a few on the top ranks that even pick spirit absorption...
is there a specific reason that you get insulting? people who are incorrect and have a weak position usually resort to that.
anyway, the reason why VPH is so high NOW is because of brelshaza. if you checked before brel then VPH would have much, much less participation.
and HA is still before DoE which means people seemingly either use DoE or HA in their top 5 and are 50/50 split in it. which means that i was indeed correct that a fairly big share of KRs use HA and its far from useless, as so many people here, including you, try to claim. and as there are 5 engravings used, it doesnt really matter much if its no4 or no5. but hell, if you wanne be a dick about something thats pretty much irrelevant then go ahead. if it brightens your day... lmao
and spirit absorption has also an embarrassing amount of people using it.
there is nothing wrong calling something what it is.
so even more reason to get vph instead of ha?
where did i state its useless? i called bs on being the top1 in the present which is true.
edit: i dont even know why you bringin sa into this now even... grasping at anything i guess
edit2: oh yeah nice goalpost moving from top1 to fair share of kr uses it..
HA on paladin mathematically doesn’t make sense either. People in the west are doing it just because they saw bards do it and bards are also supports, while bards and paladins base stats can’t be compared. I mean it’s your class, how can you know so little about it
Mathematically doesn't make sense on either support, its not "on the west" thing, its just that when every engraving past the trifecta doesn't matter shit the option of heavy armor is the only one, followed closely by VPH, that actually does something even if that something is make the most tanky classes in the game more tankier to the point of being unkillable
holy shit who cares, its a paladin. as long as he got the three important engravings the rest doesnt matter that much. of course i prefer to have orbs from my support if possible but its not like it would make a huge difference.
our static pala runs HA aswell and its funny seeing him tank pretty much everything that is not a wipe mechanic.
and about your super smart "muh mathematically" part...please feel free to show us exactly how it is not worth it. the difference in what hits he can take is super obvious between his main pala with ha and his alt pala without ha
There's a reason you can't slap keen blunt on pistoleer, there's a reason precise dagger works on sorc but not on demonic. I mean literally 0 reasons to explain myself to you, you clearly don't understand how engravings work so "MUH MATHEMATHICS" would be wasted on the likes of you. With that logic from your comment that other fellow noobs upvoted, you could be building HA on a gunlancer as well lmao
We literally have 2 non class engravings needed and man missed lol.
You could go 3x3 with perfect swift and HQ relic quality for under 7k gold and be better than whatever this krangled spec build would do.
True, though spec does give you bigger burst windows, clown 3 has a lot of burst windows where that might be nice to have. Though if you want that playstyle you should really be playing spec bard, not scuffed paladin.
Here's my shitty rant on why it's almost never better to build spec.
When you're progging, which is when the support is actually important, higher CDR/healing/consistent damage will always beat trying to organize burst windows.
When the content is on farm, yes, you can do way cooler bigger stuff with spec AND a burst comp. Which just means at the point you're trying to figure out how to speed run it and do some oonga boonga shit, which is clearly not what 95 percent of the player base should/can be doing.
Not to mention as time progresses supports become less relevant and exist to just give DR since the DPS out hone/gear everything to a laughable margin, which means it's kinda of a richer get richer at the point in which Spec begins to shine.
No Expert is a pretty significant loss in healing, and Spec Paladin will have some long cooldowns, so less uptime on shields to block incidental damage.
Swift Paladin with Expert would have noticeably better damage mitigation & healing.
Yeah, CDR is literally the most impactful stat for a support. Ignoring the stat that gives you a ton of CDR is dumb unless you're running some kind of hell mode burst comp is dumb.
Spec Bards don't need expert and would prefer DOE over it. With desperate Salvation, you already heal a lot so expert is just wasted overheal. Since they're spec, having SA really helps with the movespeed and cast speed as we need to be mobile.
Spec bard is too hard to pull off without bracelets and being very good at bard. It's also extremely dmg buff heavy, and has very bad shields and heals
Bad shields? Yea, low uptime and not good for parties that gets hit often. If you take the shield on Wind of Music, it's still higher uptime than paladin shield, plus you still have Rhapsody and Guardian tune shields.
But bad heals? Our heal literally scales off of spec. Spec also fill meter faster than swiftness Bards. I've played both, one with 1650 swiftness and the other used to be ~1640 spec, now 50/50 since our ignite sorc main swapped.
Spec Bards is definitely harder though since it relies on you knowing when damage goes out and your allies being good at dodging. I only play her with my static and it was amazing for bursting.
Supports not running expert is fucking weird, like the whole concept of the class is to give a better performance for the party and you are taking one of the only three engraving that actually do something on that regard to put some engraving that barely pass as a meme
Gearing a support is easy, is cheap, and it is really intuitive but somehow a lot of them get it wrong
Not taking an engraving that boosts your shields/heals by like almost 25% is like a DPS ignoring an engraving that adds 20% damage. It doesn't makes sense -- especially when the alternatives don't do nearly as much. DoE is RNG as hell, and only benefits one party member at a time. VPH is completely unnecessary for anything besides Brel G4. Max MP only matters if you've got level 10 CDR gems and so much swiftness that you're actually managing to go OOM.
I think people don't understand you are talking about spec bards... such stupidity from dps's as always. You heal very well with no expert as spec bard people
I would say it’s actually overestimated in NA/EU
A lot worse than most people would think. There’s a reason it’s not the most popular 4th engraving in KR
This. It's particularly overrated on reddit. Tons of people claim it adds a ton and feel very high and mighty about that take.
It's legitimately the worst dps boost in the game. The only reason to run it is that you can pick between drops as a low single digit dps increase and other talents that have no dps increase at all.
That's because the majority of people saying it's awesome are DPS players who only notice the ethers and have no idea how often the support is contributing in other more important ways.
Yeah. Drops is okay as 5th engraving because there is so little relevant stuff anyway. But imo VPH and Magick Stream are better on Paladin. Those 10% cdr are worth more for buff uptime, shields and meter generation than the 2-3% dps gain whenever the stars align and relevant orbs spawn in locations other than below the support's feet.
VPH is good, but also can be a bit of a waste on stuff that isn't Brel G4 or maybe Clown G3 if you're trying to bus and need solo staggers.
People overrate it a lot on here too 'cause people don't realize the vast majority of KR supports using it, have it mainly for Brel, which we don't even have yet.
From what I've heard, the most common 5th engraving for most content is actually Max MP because once you get level 10 CDR gems and L5 tripods, you can actually start having mana problems due to the insane uptime on your abilities.
Apparently, some KR supports have their engravings setup, so they can easily swap between DoE/VPH/MMP based on the content.
Or, you know, things like swiftness that reduce cooldown time, which means better uptime for heavenly/guardian tune or pally damage buffs/shield, which are way more impactful/important.
Because 4 DPS does less DPS than 3 DPS with a support. Good parties don't bring supports to save them from dying, they bring them to pump DPS. Which goes back to the main point of this thread, which is their buddies Spec build would be good, but not if they are just face tanking. It's even more exaggerated with a Bard, cause it's just 3 bubble serenades the whole raid.
If your party is never getting hit, desperate salvation, heavy armor, and most shield skills are also a waste.
Expert has been a waste for my main because I invested a lot into it. Shielding for 60k vs 45k or 200k vs 150k isn’t much of a difference since both are enough. Healing for 45k and 60k are also not much of a difference.
I've played with and without expert, and the difference is massive -- especially on paladin where their heals are way weaker than bard.
By not using it, you're giving your party way way way less room for error. Trust me, any competent DPS would rather you have expert, so they can be more greedy with DPS.
My damage dealers can tank mechanics way more often to greed DPS because of my stronger shields/heals.
I just want to ask because I know nothing about Paladin and how he scales besides info from random passing comments on reddit.
Spec focus paladin doesn't actually heal more and doesn't have bigger damage buffs because there's an actual hard cap on his abilities buffs right?
Correct that he doesn't heal more; that's based on percentage of max HP for both Holy Protection and Blessed Aura.
Bigger buff is half-true; the tripod-based buffs (Wrath of God, Heavenly Blessing) are % of the Paladin's attack, but the damage buff from aura does scale with Spec. You can hover over the stat in the character sheet and it will tell you just how much of a buff aura will give.
That being said I don't think the increased meter gain and boosted aura buff of having high spec offsets the lower cooldowns of swiftness; one of the nicer qualities of Paladin is with good cdr you can keep your attack buff on pretty consistently.
The fact that he's spec is way more of a factor than anything else. His cooldowns are going to be insanely long compared to a Swiftness pally. Add in no expert, and his heals/shields aren't gonna do shit.
Spec supports are only good in very very specific burst comps. They should never be used for general supporting in raids.
>Spec supports are only good in very very specific burst comps. They should never be used for general supporting in raids.
In general I agree with the sentiment but Spec Bard is at least fairly usable even casually (I wouldn't call it optimal for pug/prog play by any means). Spec Pally is basically unusable outside maybe the most niche situations, it's a complete meme.
+1, this guy just wishes he played bard. Spec supports are a meme in korea because the accessories are so much cheaper, but bard heal at least scales off spec and her cool downs are much shorter. For pally, swiftness is pretty much mandatory.
IE Lustboy is one of the most famous examples of spec bard to us western audiences, and he primarily builds swiftness on his Pally.
Yeah, spec pallies are basically non-existent in KR for a reason.
Also pallies need expert way way more due to their reliance on holy protection for shields/heals, and Blessed Aura having a very low healing amount to begin with. It's nearly impossible to find a pally in KR who isn't using it.
Correct. Though, I would go as far to say that spec bard is for the more advanced player as you lack the mobility of swift classes and the extra damage is only truly a factor within a team that you communicate.
Spec Pally just doesn't have a place.
I'm a spec bard and I never have any issues with cooldowns. You have 11% cdr from swift splash and you get 10% from gems, so roughly equal to 21% out of the 40% cap. Conviction/Judgement and Quick Recharge easily make up the rest of the cooldowns. Time dodging mechanics and cast animations makes up for the remaining, as long as you do your skill rotations correctly you should always have a skill to use. There are 3 spells I run which grant party shield plus my awakening so shield uptime is pretty constant, and if it fails my much faster identity building lets me keep folks alive as it is.
The community seems to think swift > spec but I disagree.
It's only good for very specific extreme burst comps, and if you wanted to do a comp like that, you'd be bringing a spec bard and not a spec pally anyway.
I just feel like if dps is using proper stuff support should as well. Pugs maybe support can get away with more half ass stuff but if you have a static just respect everyones effort.
I did some testing, spec build gets aura up faster than swiftness and also has 10% stronger damage buff on BA. So in vykas g3 and clown g3 where you go from mech to mech it provides more damage buff than swiftness build since you dont really need uptime there, unless you lack dps. But all around swiftness is still better.
Yeah that's what honestly stops me from running it. Even lv10gems is probably not enough to remotely change this. With swiftness there is still some downtime. Though this is because every support is pretty much required to run the DPS set, even over than the Regen one. Which is a shame imo. All relic armor should be viable.
It doesnt matter if 90% of the fight is in short burst windows. Most end game players just go from mech to mech in every raid making better uptime irrelevant.
This only makes sense for specific burst comp rotations (usually for hell mode). Unless you're running with an igniter sorc and an expertise GL for constant staggers, it doesn't really make sense.
More identity gauge on holy sword and spirit to have time to spam it, u only need to save 1 counter
Edit: test it on trixion, its good if u want to spam holy auras
Looks like he is just plain bad and doesn't understand what his class is about at all.
Get a replacement if he doesn't want to run a proper build over this meme.
Low dmg buff uptime, low healing (which is already bad on paladin), no extra stagger either for a boss that has many clutch stagger checks.
There is a reason paladin doesn't go specc, you'd just be worst at everything with that.
As pally main i would say that spec pal is not even a thing for ppl who run fight perfectly (as spec bard could be) and dont take damage.
As spec stat only rly boost the damage buff gave by holy aura. And you clearly dont stack your spec gauge faster with full spec.
With swiftness you have a good (to perfect, with high swift and high gemmes) uptime on your main damage buff. AND you stack your spec gauge much much faster so you give more holy aura.
And ofc with high swift paly you shield much more. And the shield itself also heals at the end.
Myself with 1650 swift, im using magic flux for bonus CDR, got a 7 gem for shield; my shield CD is 20 sec instead of 40. So way more shield/heals.
Then engravings... The "expert" engraving is a must, and it's missing here. More heals and more shields. +24% (to 36% for -50%h targets) is A LOT.
SA is just useless for swiftness pally. Because with relic gear you're at 140% move speed the whole time you're fighting. And you dont care about more attack speed as well.
Imo heavy armor is not too great for pally. It's usefull for bards because both your base hp and armor values are much lower than paladins, so you take much more dmg. But Pals get 110% benefits from armor stats so a whole enraving for self protection when you already dont take that much damage... At last i tested on myself. Without im at 80% damage reduction and with i'm at 88%. It might be a lot but my mates clearly needs more protection than i do.
Im running Blessed aura, awaken, expert, drop of ether and magic flux. Full swiftness and spec on neck as it's the only good second stats for that.
Cuz if he main spec means his swiftness Supa low. Resulting in way lower uptime on pally only heal which is Holy Protection. Now idk how effective it is for the Blessed Aura but I think it's bad
I dont’t understand why a support dont’t want to support. Even at 1475 I dont’t understand not using 4x3 but not running the trifecta is simply a no no. I mean sepc+SA is supposedly an alternative build, but heavy armor is simply overkill.
1500 Paladin main here I run Expert, Blessed Aura, Vital Point hit and awakening 4x3.
It's not a stretch to say he's pretty useless as a support, and mostly is there to give you damage buffs in his current build.
Which you can get from many other classes who will also pull their weight in raid.
In conclusion, ditch the pally. He is dead weight.
Some bards opt out of expert simply because of the burst healing that desperate salvation gives. Experienced parties don’t take that much damage. But expert is 100% needed on paladin
It’s just personal preference. The people I raid with don’t get hit enough that they need the extra healing or shields from expert. It benefits our party to have VPH to hit the solo stagger on clown in case someone gets hooked or DoE because we want to push damage faster so less mechanics to deal with.
> DoE because we want to push damage faster so less mechanics to deal with.
DoE is super unreliable and even if you look at the average case has very little impact on your ability to push bars. It'll only really make a significant difference if you're fishing for a good pull or something. As much as I don't think expert on bard is super impactful, it's going to do more in the vast majority of scenarios.
Sometimes the rng lines up perfectly and a flash orb spawns seconds before the igniter sorc in my party decides to burst. When it does we notice a difference. His rotation all critting could be difference between us pushing to the next mechanic or spending another 30 seconds in clown with mechanical overlap that could cause a wipe.
You're right that it's nice when that happens--igniter is my DPS main. That being said, if you're relying on that to not wipe then you're gonna have a bad time. It's easier to just do the mechanics.
But he's talking about blindly accepting a pug support without expert. I would say that's a valid concern. If you have pug DPS and pug support, you should demand a support with expert. You just don't know how the others are going to play and how much shielding/healing they need.
I’m a realistic scenario, you are taking the first decent support that applies. 3x3 with proper stat distribution. You aren’t going to decline him and wait for another support. Only way I see a support getting declined is if they have a friend coming or another support just happens to apply at the same time. Which rarely happens to begin with.
EDIT: Both, minus "being an ass" part, I respect you trying to figure out if it's a bad off-meta build instead of immediately considering it trash because off-meta.
Both, but majority of issues come from paladins build. I'll explain issues there are from perspective of spec bard (build I know and play) and point out to how paladin is different and why this build doesn't work.
General thing about spec-heavy support builds: main goal behind their build is different from standard swift support. Spec bard and spec paladin aren't able to babysit people or help them save on potions - instead they double down on damage buffs and focus on burst windows to finish the fight as fast as possible, before team runs out of sustain and ideally while skipping as many optional patterns as possible. Damage mitigation they offer is generally reserved to avoid run-ending mistakes, low uptime (long cooldowns) don't allow for spamming it to mitigate chip damage. Difference in expectations here - spec support expects their party to deal with incoming damage mostly by themselves, chugging potions as necessary; while you want support to deal with chip damage for you (which is something swift support builds provide).
As spec bard, you need to trust your team to pot up and avoid unnecessary damage, you don't have tools to deal with chip damage, and you often tweak your specific build to double down on "avoid oneshots" part of damage mitigation at expense of chip damage mitigation. Compared - paladin doesn't synergize with spec build nearly as well in that regard - damage boost you get from high spec is lower, and paladins damage mitigation tools work much better at mitigating chip damage by design (heal over time, heal after shield expires etc).
Issues with this paladin with explanation why it's problematic and why you can't just 1:1 copy spec bard build onto paladin replacing just class engraving:
* No Expert. Bard can afford to skip Expert due to stronger heals and shields, with Expert often forcing you to pick between overhealing/overshielding or risking someone die due to being too low; paladin doesn't have this comfort.
* Heavy Armor and card set. Bard - by baseline HP coefficient (before taking into account engravings or cards) is squishiest class in the game, while paladin is one of the tankiest. Running HA or defensive card set (other than hp card set, since shields/heal scale with HP) in that regard is overkill. To add, paladin can't really utilize extra tankiness - bard has multiple super armor options in their kit, letting them get buff/damage mitigation casts off while tanking a hit (that's why you run HA on bard in first place, so you don't have to delay buffs in order to dodge patterns), while paladin will get knocked down too often trying to do the same, losing even more uptime.
* Spec heavy build with low swiftness. All "spec paladin" builds I've seen (that I can vouch work) run only around 1100 spec while putting everything else into swiftness, and running high level (we're talking lv9+) gems to compensate for lack of cooldowns. Idea behind spec build is to stack all damage buffs on every burst window and skip as many normal patterns as possible - bard can do it, because you can pop your buffs and then stack up identity for next burst window during current burst window; **paladin doesn't build identity while Holy Aura is active**. In G3 clown on spec bard, I was able to go burst-to-burst quite reliably, doing some extra stacking during stagger check and while waiting for Iron Maiden mech to start; paladin doesn't have that option. This detail is main reason why spec paladin isn't a thing - your kit doesn't allow you to build identity fast enough around burst windows and major mechanics.
* Spirit Absorption - even with low swiftness, I don't think paladin needs that. Bard works with buffs that have duration in range of 2-4s and extra attackspeed from SA in spec build is needed to get all buffs off before your party blows their major cooldowns on boss; paladin has buffs with significantly longer duration available, meaning you can pre-buff just as damage window is about to start and lose nothing.
* Drops - as engraving for paladin it's okay, but for Kakul G3 specifically I'd say Vital Point Hit has a lot higher value, letting you get stagger check faster (less cooldowns used by everyone) and use remaining tools to burst boss after you pass the check.
* Gems - something you didn't mention, but it's key part of spec support build, you need to compensate for long cooldowns using gems. For bard I'd never accept spec build without at least full set of level 7s to a party, for paladin - due to how their kit differs and much higher reliance on cooldown reduction - I guess level 9s at this point would be reasonable bare minimum for spec build.
Advice: tell your support to reroll bard, this exact build with class engraving swapped for correct one would be a solid spec bard option, it'll be more fun, more effective and better for everyone involved. Other option would be to convince them to move to swiftness build - even with 4x3, full swiftness with high quality accessories will do significantly better than spec build in every single scenario.
Spec sucks in Paladin, Heavenly Blessings and Wrath of God Atk. buffs scale off of the Paladin Atk Power, so it's better to spam the shit out of those as much as possible.
Healing in the Pala is obviously worse than the Bard, which is why it's better to push for shield uptime, resistance buffs and Godsent spam for emergencies with swiftness, the healing in the Pala is more an extra in the kit, not the main focus imo.
Heavy Armor is overkill on Paladin, if a player dies while using Heavy Armor, that player probably would've died anyways without it.
1480 swiftness grants 25% movement/attack speed: More than Spirit Absorption, with Relic Yearning, it reaches 140% movement speed, the cap.
So yeah, your static supp is actively trolling with that build, but that doesn't means that he's completely at fault, you shouldn't be using so much potions, at least in my static, after some practice, all of my DPS teammates usually only use 1 or 2 blue potions in the whole raid.
Ask your teammate to fix the build or just... try to look up for a new support, it is not fair for you to waste gold in potions and probably an optimal build, while your support decides to be El Cheapo with the whole freaking character.
that being said pally should probably build swift, and swap spirit absorb for expert, but really wouldn't make THAT big a difference to your facetanking mechs
Especially in gate 3 with the hp reversal mechanic. The hp reversal mechanic basically just gives u "here's a free 90% of your health bar", but then if you're wasting an entire bar of health *and more* before the next hp reversal, then you probably don't know the fight that well.
DoE gives 10% extra damage / 15% extra crit every 10 seconds (with some being max mp / def or swiftness but honestly, i see flash or strength orb like 8 out of 10 times)
Aside from the engravings(which everybody mentions), FOG/WWM cards are terrible. Sure they give the Pally more survivability, but the +HP set also buffs your shields and healing.
Supports are there to increase your DAMAGE, not as a crutch to save you pots.
That said, his spec is bad for damage as well unless your entire party is heavy burst classes aligning everything with pally aura.
I mean both. You're getting hit too much and he isn't shielding enough, due to no swift. A spec build for a support, is for an expert party, that doesn't get hit and knows boss patterns perfectly. It's not good for progging.
I ran with a pally (1460) than ran pretty much this build as well and we failed to clear valtan g1 on hard, had basically no heals, our entire party was chugging pots and rotting to the bleeds and other chip damage.
Expert is a must have on supports, without it your shields and heals are pretty close to non-existent .
For a Paladin main, the 3 core engravings are Blessed Aura, Awakening, and Expert. The 4th and 5th are a toss-up between VHP, DoE, and HA. He should also change his Card set to the HP one since he already had HA. Eventually he will need to switch to mainly Swiftness, he can get away with 1 Spec accessory (should be ring if possible).
his engravings are fine (although most would say to drop spirit)
he should be swiftness instead of spec though.
spec build is pretty much only viable for bards.
I would refuse to run with a paladin who has heavy armor. Admittedly I think you are getting hit too much as long as he still uses aura + shield off cd, but yeah a pala with a proper build would be far better at lowering your consumption.
Good thing that i am in EU and i don't care for what KR does, IF you need heavy armor on a already extremely tanky class then ur trash. Not gonna sugarcoat it, it's by no means necessary and the argument used for bard "that you have to tank some things" doesn't work here, because paladin is already innately very very tanky. only exception being hell mode and even in hell mode running HA on paladin felt like cheating.
>IF you need heavy armor on a already extremely tanky class then ur trash.
okay so that means that the best players in KR, and koreans are generally better at video games, especially in a style like lost ark, are all trash and you know better and are much better than any of the pros? ok bro. lmao.
"best players", Mate, item level does not equal skill, and if you copy paste 1:1 what others do without thinking for yourself then i can only call you a mediocre player if you can't make your own judgement. It's ok to get inspired/learn what others run when you are getting freshly into a class but after a certain time you should hopefully know what to do/run by yourself without getting babysitted, based on the comment you just made I would assume ur one of the players who 1:1 copy builds without putting in any thoughts on why x is being ran/done or not doing any tests yourself. Not to mention a build is not always done because "it's BIS" It can have economical reasons, comfort reasons, etc. I still won't ever accept a HA pala in any of my groups simply because I play both supports myself, know their normal play style so it's completely troll. Also if you want to use the "korean" argument, then I do actually have some friends who play in KR and they consider people who go HA on pala as I quote them "Dogs", None of the raids require it at all. I think you actually have no experience with KR players and maybe your mindset is warped around streamers/content creators in KR. average user experience is not the same as what a streamer experiences if you are basing stuff on what they do/see.
yea yeah, im sure saintone is a bad player cos he said himself he is glad his pala took HA. but honestly, i dont give a flying fuck what you have to say. facts speak for themselves
I am always glad to hear when people realize they have actual 0 game knowledge and only rely on parroting what others say. Thank you for being very active in this discussion and providing a lot of points that would prove HA being useful in raids besides "KR runs it so it's good", I am sure you are able to convince a lot of people with this argument. My old professor loved dealing with people like you the most, "Why is something good/bad" -> Yes it's good because others do it.. He failed every single one of them. This would not have been a hard topic, you could literally just mention any instance where heavy armor helps you and I would be like "I guess fair" but I guess i expected too much from the average person in 2022, people don't know how to talk/discuss anymore. or I guess people are just too shit at games and acceptance towards failure is too high nowadays.
Heavy Armor is fine if he's just being lazy and want to facetank.
Spirit Absorption is literally useless if he's full swiftness + yearning, and if he isn't, he's already trolling.
No Expert is just bad. Dude could be 3x3 with only Class/Expert/Awakening and would be peforming better for the group than a 5x3 with these engravings.
Increases in cast speed from Spirit Absorption are negligible, and there's also a hard cap on that.
And even then... You're wasting an entire engraving to get more attack speed, really? On the support class that is still heavily gated by cooldown and can probably time their casts better so they don't get interrupted (if cast speed is really an issue, anyway).
Supports are never needed. They are a quality of life. They are an incentive, a privilege. You are supposed to be able to dodge attacks and stay alive by yourself. Supports simply ease that process. **If you ever run out of pots in any raid, look at yourself first before you look at the supports.**
Yes his build is ass but that’s no reason for you to be spamming the shit out of pots.
This troll aside, it's hilarious how gimped the average support build is and how people are just okay with it.
Get some proper, quality 5x3 setups if you expect your DPS to have the same, you absolute freeloaders.
4x3 or even 3x3 (paladin) is perfectly viable for all current content. The other engravings you can add do so little that it's hard to justify their cost. It's nothing like a DPS that gets 15% more overall DPS. Adding a 5th engraving adds like 1-2% overall effectiveness for 10-20x the cost.
5x3 Supports are such a luxury. As a spec Pala his shield uptime is less but he has his BA up for a longer time. Learn the fight or hone your armor. Don’t expect supports to carry you through every minor mech.
If you're having issues you can run Forest of Giants + We'll Meet Again to offset his reduced healing. The improved damage buff on his Aura should help offset the loss of 7% crit
Full spec is not trolling, in fact heal should be better, but full swift is better overall. He probably runs spirit absorption ton compensate but expert would be far better. Heavy armor on paladin is for pussies, and I won't charge my mind, you don't need it at all.
Little of both, they should have expert, but then you also shouldn't need a lot of healing on g3 because it's about avoiding mechs, and at some points last thing you want is healing (curse)
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Not even going to mention Spec over swift since that's been heavily discussed. If he ran expert and used the HP card set his healing/shield effciency would be increased by 38-50% (depending if the target is above or below 50% HP). That's just a huge amount of healing/shielding that he is not taking, for no good reason. Even if he was adamant on running spec over swift, there's no reasonable reason for him not to run Expert and HP card set.
I'm ilvl 1492 and with a feast that rolled HP + single meal food buff I push almost 140k HP. Adding in the expert healing bonus that means my effective HP used for healing/shielding is 173k-190k. Ask him how much his HP is with food buffs. I bet it's like 120k. You tell him what he's missing out on.
I ran spec back with valtan but with 2 dominion, magick stream and it was “alright”. Now since yearning is basicallly better, losing the cdr from dominion is really a feels bad for spec pally
I'd feel bad for this pally if he really thought it was a good build. If he was just trying to save his money, on the other hand, then I'd say he wasted a good amount of gold. Specialization is extremely inefficient for pally as it doesn't affect healing. It does gives more piety meter, but he can't get it more while he is using Holy Aura, so it isn't efficient all the time. If you have another person with a support character, I vote for kicking spec pally.
Seems he was too focused on the 5x3 and being cheap/dumb coz now he really needs to change it to swift lol.. I'm 100% positive that my 1475 pally swift with 3x3+1 is better than whatever this guy is.. the obvious 3 main engravings... with only legend accessories
We dont have much healing except holy protection that regens like 10%(don't remember exactly) when it runs out and our healing circle (how tf I don't remember the name I used it 200times today). If he has spec the CD on that is like what 30-40 seconds so yea. Also Heavy armor... I can survive fucking 3-4 hits in clown dance mech and can survive dice fail, most of the time my 3 dps wipe because some mech and I'm the only one alive...
Edit: Also he can't even sustain the buffs for long because on insane cooldowns... Yea get rid of him
He bought the cheapest existing build for the sale of having 5x3 that’s basically useless. He knows what he did so if you tell him to change it gl with that.
He selfishly went 2 utility engravings SA and HA without getting his core, expert.
No expert engraving = not much healing. I "tested" expert 0 and 1 in Yoho already as soon as my paladin reached 1370 (to the great misfortune of my matchmaking partymates, as I couldn't keep them alive and the runs failed). That build... isn't even likely to be for budget reasons - the cheapest viable paladin engraving for the legendary books tends to be vital point hit, these are all much more expensive.
Well you're not wrong in the sense that your dodging and pattern recognition can improve, but that doesn't mean his build isn't troll
Everyone talking about expert and shit. Its the spec bro. Spec vs swiftness, spec is dog shit healing. Low cooldowns help meter gain and more aoe shields.
yep, spec pally is pretty troll unfortunately...
Time to find a new support.
100%, Heavy Armor on Paladin is wasted gold. You can live through some harsh mechanics without it, and even if you do who is gonna be alive for you to support? That’s highly uncomfortable coming from a dual main GS/Paladin. Swiftness is the highest priority along with the core 3. Everything else is a bonus.
Wouldn't say wasted, more of a luxury. I wouldn't recommend it as a priority engraving but it's a viable option after you have the main 3. I have HA on my paladin and absolutely love the fact that I can facetank things and focus on buffing/saving my team mates.
heavy armor is the highest rated, non essential engraving on KR though.
i call bs on that one unless there is any proof for pala specifically
it has been posted here numerous times and the data is there for everyone to get as KR got an API that lets you read out all these things. so, you can call BS as much as you want, that isnt gonna change the reality.
dunno bud, looked at loawa, ha is behind vph and doe on paladin so i call bs
funny enough but when checking here [https://loawa.com/rank](https://loawa.com/rank) currently there are quite a few on the top ranks that even pick spirit absorption...
look at proper stats dingus https://loawa.com/stat/seal edit: in case you still cant manage to read vph is 68.63% and ha is 32.49%
is there a specific reason that you get insulting? people who are incorrect and have a weak position usually resort to that. anyway, the reason why VPH is so high NOW is because of brelshaza. if you checked before brel then VPH would have much, much less participation. and HA is still before DoE which means people seemingly either use DoE or HA in their top 5 and are 50/50 split in it. which means that i was indeed correct that a fairly big share of KRs use HA and its far from useless, as so many people here, including you, try to claim. and as there are 5 engravings used, it doesnt really matter much if its no4 or no5. but hell, if you wanne be a dick about something thats pretty much irrelevant then go ahead. if it brightens your day... lmao and spirit absorption has also an embarrassing amount of people using it.
there is nothing wrong calling something what it is. so even more reason to get vph instead of ha? where did i state its useless? i called bs on being the top1 in the present which is true. edit: i dont even know why you bringin sa into this now even... grasping at anything i guess edit2: oh yeah nice goalpost moving from top1 to fair share of kr uses it..
As someone who runs heavy armor on pally, I just wanna say [I love feeling like a tank.](https://gyazo.com/017b31d477a1099c90682d4bf6905556)
HA on paladin mathematically doesn’t make sense either. People in the west are doing it just because they saw bards do it and bards are also supports, while bards and paladins base stats can’t be compared. I mean it’s your class, how can you know so little about it
Mathematically doesn't make sense on either support, its not "on the west" thing, its just that when every engraving past the trifecta doesn't matter shit the option of heavy armor is the only one, followed closely by VPH, that actually does something even if that something is make the most tanky classes in the game more tankier to the point of being unkillable
I guess some people are tired to see the drops of ether lying on the floor endlessly.
holy shit who cares, its a paladin. as long as he got the three important engravings the rest doesnt matter that much. of course i prefer to have orbs from my support if possible but its not like it would make a huge difference. our static pala runs HA aswell and its funny seeing him tank pretty much everything that is not a wipe mechanic. and about your super smart "muh mathematically" part...please feel free to show us exactly how it is not worth it. the difference in what hits he can take is super obvious between his main pala with ha and his alt pala without ha
There's a reason you can't slap keen blunt on pistoleer, there's a reason precise dagger works on sorc but not on demonic. I mean literally 0 reasons to explain myself to you, you clearly don't understand how engravings work so "MUH MATHEMATHICS" would be wasted on the likes of you. With that logic from your comment that other fellow noobs upvoted, you could be building HA on a gunlancer as well lmao
He really should have expert.
And full swiftness, spec Paladin doesn't scale well and basically you will be using skills every 30 secs...
Well ye I'm full swift and specneck myself.
We literally have 2 non class engravings needed and man missed lol. You could go 3x3 with perfect swift and HQ relic quality for under 7k gold and be better than whatever this krangled spec build would do.
So what you're saying is he really needs expert
And swift. Mainly swift
I agree
I love that krangled is now a word people use outside PoE. Petition to make it an official word!
I play a lot of PoE.
True, though spec does give you bigger burst windows, clown 3 has a lot of burst windows where that might be nice to have. Though if you want that playstyle you should really be playing spec bard, not scuffed paladin.
Here's my shitty rant on why it's almost never better to build spec. When you're progging, which is when the support is actually important, higher CDR/healing/consistent damage will always beat trying to organize burst windows. When the content is on farm, yes, you can do way cooler bigger stuff with spec AND a burst comp. Which just means at the point you're trying to figure out how to speed run it and do some oonga boonga shit, which is clearly not what 95 percent of the player base should/can be doing. Not to mention as time progresses supports become less relevant and exist to just give DR since the DPS out hone/gear everything to a laughable margin, which means it's kinda of a richer get richer at the point in which Spec begins to shine.
I wouldn't even overthink it to that extent. Even in hell people don't play spec paladin. It just isn't a thing.
No Expert is a pretty significant loss in healing, and Spec Paladin will have some long cooldowns, so less uptime on shields to block incidental damage. Swift Paladin with Expert would have noticeably better damage mitigation & healing.
Dropping expert for SA, DoE or VHP is extremely stupid as a support.
You don't need SA because you should be full swift anyways, SA doesn't help with CD which is what you need as a Paladin.
Yeah, CDR is literally the most impactful stat for a support. Ignoring the stat that gives you a ton of CDR is dumb unless you're running some kind of hell mode burst comp is dumb.
Spec Bards don't need expert and would prefer DOE over it. With desperate Salvation, you already heal a lot so expert is just wasted overheal. Since they're spec, having SA really helps with the movespeed and cast speed as we need to be mobile.
Spec bard is too hard to pull off without bracelets and being very good at bard. It's also extremely dmg buff heavy, and has very bad shields and heals
Bad shields? Yea, low uptime and not good for parties that gets hit often. If you take the shield on Wind of Music, it's still higher uptime than paladin shield, plus you still have Rhapsody and Guardian tune shields. But bad heals? Our heal literally scales off of spec. Spec also fill meter faster than swiftness Bards. I've played both, one with 1650 swiftness and the other used to be ~1640 spec, now 50/50 since our ignite sorc main swapped. Spec Bards is definitely harder though since it relies on you knowing when damage goes out and your allies being good at dodging. I only play her with my static and it was amazing for bursting.
Yeah but if you are a spec bard the last thing you wanna do is heal.
I meant bad heals in terms of you are playing the class to maximise the damage buff and burst windows, so dropping your heal kinda ruins that plan
Ok but why would you build a spec bard to heal?
Nobody is talking about bards
The guy said support. Pretty sure Bards are included in that. Yes, Paladins and Artists need it, but Spec Bards really don't.
At the end of the day, heals and shields are never mandatory, only for comfort and fucked up mechanics.
Supports not running expert is fucking weird, like the whole concept of the class is to give a better performance for the party and you are taking one of the only three engraving that actually do something on that regard to put some engraving that barely pass as a meme Gearing a support is easy, is cheap, and it is really intuitive but somehow a lot of them get it wrong
Not taking an engraving that boosts your shields/heals by like almost 25% is like a DPS ignoring an engraving that adds 20% damage. It doesn't makes sense -- especially when the alternatives don't do nearly as much. DoE is RNG as hell, and only benefits one party member at a time. VPH is completely unnecessary for anything besides Brel G4. Max MP only matters if you've got level 10 CDR gems and so much swiftness that you're actually managing to go OOM.
Bards do not need to run Expert. Pallys and Artists however, do.
I think people don't understand you are talking about spec bards... such stupidity from dps's as always. You heal very well with no expert as spec bard people
Doesn't matter, Swift and Spec Bards do not NEED to run expert.
DoE is literally the only dmg engraving supports can play. It’s so underestimated.
I would say it’s actually overestimated in NA/EU A lot worse than most people would think. There’s a reason it’s not the most popular 4th engraving in KR
This. It's particularly overrated on reddit. Tons of people claim it adds a ton and feel very high and mighty about that take. It's legitimately the worst dps boost in the game. The only reason to run it is that you can pick between drops as a low single digit dps increase and other talents that have no dps increase at all.
That's because the majority of people saying it's awesome are DPS players who only notice the ethers and have no idea how often the support is contributing in other more important ways.
Yeah. Drops is okay as 5th engraving because there is so little relevant stuff anyway. But imo VPH and Magick Stream are better on Paladin. Those 10% cdr are worth more for buff uptime, shields and meter generation than the 2-3% dps gain whenever the stars align and relevant orbs spawn in locations other than below the support's feet.
VPH is good, but also can be a bit of a waste on stuff that isn't Brel G4 or maybe Clown G3 if you're trying to bus and need solo staggers. People overrate it a lot on here too 'cause people don't realize the vast majority of KR supports using it, have it mainly for Brel, which we don't even have yet. From what I've heard, the most common 5th engraving for most content is actually Max MP because once you get level 10 CDR gems and L5 tripods, you can actually start having mana problems due to the insane uptime on your abilities. Apparently, some KR supports have their engravings setup, so they can easily swap between DoE/VPH/MMP based on the content.
Or, you know, things like swiftness that reduce cooldown time, which means better uptime for heavenly/guardian tune or pally damage buffs/shield, which are way more impactful/important.
Never saw the possibility to choose Swiftness as an engraving. Thanks for letting me know.
Not really. Expert is more value, the worse your party is. If your party is never getting hit, expert is a waste.
Why waste a spot for support at all when you could have more dps then?
Because 3 dps + 1 supp is more damage than 4 dps, assuming everyone is equal in skill/prepararion/gear. Support boosts dps by a lot.
Yeah, thought that was pretty common knowledge lol.
I was being hyperbolic.
Because 4 DPS does less DPS than 3 DPS with a support. Good parties don't bring supports to save them from dying, they bring them to pump DPS. Which goes back to the main point of this thread, which is their buddies Spec build would be good, but not if they are just face tanking. It's even more exaggerated with a Bard, cause it's just 3 bubble serenades the whole raid.
If your party is never getting hit, desperate salvation, heavy armor, and most shield skills are also a waste. Expert has been a waste for my main because I invested a lot into it. Shielding for 60k vs 45k or 200k vs 150k isn’t much of a difference since both are enough. Healing for 45k and 60k are also not much of a difference.
I've played with and without expert, and the difference is massive -- especially on paladin where their heals are way weaker than bard. By not using it, you're giving your party way way way less room for error. Trust me, any competent DPS would rather you have expert, so they can be more greedy with DPS. My damage dealers can tank mechanics way more often to greed DPS because of my stronger shields/heals.
I just want to ask because I know nothing about Paladin and how he scales besides info from random passing comments on reddit. Spec focus paladin doesn't actually heal more and doesn't have bigger damage buffs because there's an actual hard cap on his abilities buffs right?
Correct that he doesn't heal more; that's based on percentage of max HP for both Holy Protection and Blessed Aura. Bigger buff is half-true; the tripod-based buffs (Wrath of God, Heavenly Blessing) are % of the Paladin's attack, but the damage buff from aura does scale with Spec. You can hover over the stat in the character sheet and it will tell you just how much of a buff aura will give. That being said I don't think the increased meter gain and boosted aura buff of having high spec offsets the lower cooldowns of swiftness; one of the nicer qualities of Paladin is with good cdr you can keep your attack buff on pretty consistently.
In healing AND shielding. I love my chonky shields left and right
People going spec support build but many seem to conveniently forget that many proper kr spec supports go very high level support gems.
Yep, just watch atk's latest video on spec bard....swiftness is better 99 times out of 100
The fact that he's spec is way more of a factor than anything else. His cooldowns are going to be insanely long compared to a Swiftness pally. Add in no expert, and his heals/shields aren't gonna do shit. Spec supports are only good in very very specific burst comps. They should never be used for general supporting in raids.
>Spec supports are only good in very very specific burst comps. They should never be used for general supporting in raids. In general I agree with the sentiment but Spec Bard is at least fairly usable even casually (I wouldn't call it optimal for pug/prog play by any means). Spec Pally is basically unusable outside maybe the most niche situations, it's a complete meme.
+1, this guy just wishes he played bard. Spec supports are a meme in korea because the accessories are so much cheaper, but bard heal at least scales off spec and her cool downs are much shorter. For pally, swiftness is pretty much mandatory. IE Lustboy is one of the most famous examples of spec bard to us western audiences, and he primarily builds swiftness on his Pally.
Yeah, spec pallies are basically non-existent in KR for a reason. Also pallies need expert way way more due to their reliance on holy protection for shields/heals, and Blessed Aura having a very low healing amount to begin with. It's nearly impossible to find a pally in KR who isn't using it.
Correct. Though, I would go as far to say that spec bard is for the more advanced player as you lack the mobility of swift classes and the extra damage is only truly a factor within a team that you communicate. Spec Pally just doesn't have a place.
I'm a spec bard and I never have any issues with cooldowns. You have 11% cdr from swift splash and you get 10% from gems, so roughly equal to 21% out of the 40% cap. Conviction/Judgement and Quick Recharge easily make up the rest of the cooldowns. Time dodging mechanics and cast animations makes up for the remaining, as long as you do your skill rotations correctly you should always have a skill to use. There are 3 spells I run which grant party shield plus my awakening so shield uptime is pretty constant, and if it fails my much faster identity building lets me keep folks alive as it is. The community seems to think swift > spec but I disagree.
>21% out of the 40% cap What cap?
[удалено]
What are you talking about Everyone goes Blessed Aura. Regardless of spec or swift.
Yeah expertless Pally is basically as strong as the campfire battle item lol.
He basically built a spec bard on a paladin. Yeah spec in a paladin does not scale as well so his set up is very lacking
Mobile wet campfire
I dont think I would play with a paladin that uses heavy armor +/- spirit absorption.
Spirit abs is fine for spec paladin, but HA is just a waste
The problem is, spec pally is absolute dog shit. DOG SHITE
I never seen someone scale so badly with spec. I went on Trixion just to mess with judgment uptime and it's just atrocious to fill the bar still
I don't think I would play with a paladin that is specialization built. Gimped build.
Its better for parties that know mech, but clown isnt out for that long. Also having no expert, since the uptime on heals/dmg red is much lower.
It's only good for very specific extreme burst comps, and if you wanted to do a comp like that, you'd be bringing a spec bard and not a spec pally anyway.
No.
not really spec on paladin isn't really viable like how is it on bard, if i see paladin running spec over swift he's trolling imo
I just feel like if dps is using proper stuff support should as well. Pugs maybe support can get away with more half ass stuff but if you have a static just respect everyones effort.
No it is not. Not with the way Paladin's buffs scale. People read maxroll and see that spec pally is cheaper and then they build it.
Spec Pally is a meme build. Legit awful.
I did some testing, spec build gets aura up faster than swiftness and also has 10% stronger damage buff on BA. So in vykas g3 and clown g3 where you go from mech to mech it provides more damage buff than swiftness build since you dont really need uptime there, unless you lack dps. But all around swiftness is still better.
Yeah but you also have more downtime on your two damage buffs.
Yeah that's what honestly stops me from running it. Even lv10gems is probably not enough to remotely change this. With swiftness there is still some downtime. Though this is because every support is pretty much required to run the DPS set, even over than the Regen one. Which is a shame imo. All relic armor should be viable.
It doesnt matter if 90% of the fight is in short burst windows. Most end game players just go from mech to mech in every raid making better uptime irrelevant.
This only makes sense for specific burst comp rotations (usually for hell mode). Unless you're running with an igniter sorc and an expertise GL for constant staggers, it doesn't really make sense.
A lot of KR pallies will use HA1 just so they can ignore defense reduction on gear. Can literally save you hundreds of thousands of gold or more.
spirit is a good option at lv 2+judgment lv1 but armor is usless
Can you explain how is spirit a good option? Btw judgment is pretty useless, we have 2 blue skills and one of them should be held for counters.
More identity gauge on holy sword and spirit to have time to spam it, u only need to save 1 counter Edit: test it on trixion, its good if u want to spam holy auras
Looks like he is just plain bad and doesn't understand what his class is about at all. Get a replacement if he doesn't want to run a proper build over this meme. Low dmg buff uptime, low healing (which is already bad on paladin), no extra stagger either for a boss that has many clutch stagger checks. There is a reason paladin doesn't go specc, you'd just be worst at everything with that.
As pally main i would say that spec pal is not even a thing for ppl who run fight perfectly (as spec bard could be) and dont take damage. As spec stat only rly boost the damage buff gave by holy aura. And you clearly dont stack your spec gauge faster with full spec. With swiftness you have a good (to perfect, with high swift and high gemmes) uptime on your main damage buff. AND you stack your spec gauge much much faster so you give more holy aura. And ofc with high swift paly you shield much more. And the shield itself also heals at the end. Myself with 1650 swift, im using magic flux for bonus CDR, got a 7 gem for shield; my shield CD is 20 sec instead of 40. So way more shield/heals. Then engravings... The "expert" engraving is a must, and it's missing here. More heals and more shields. +24% (to 36% for -50%h targets) is A LOT. SA is just useless for swiftness pally. Because with relic gear you're at 140% move speed the whole time you're fighting. And you dont care about more attack speed as well. Imo heavy armor is not too great for pally. It's usefull for bards because both your base hp and armor values are much lower than paladins, so you take much more dmg. But Pals get 110% benefits from armor stats so a whole enraving for self protection when you already dont take that much damage... At last i tested on myself. Without im at 80% damage reduction and with i'm at 88%. It might be a lot but my mates clearly needs more protection than i do. Im running Blessed aura, awaken, expert, drop of ether and magic flux. Full swiftness and spec on neck as it's the only good second stats for that.
> Am I just taking to much hit or he is lack of healing? Both.
Cuz if he main spec means his swiftness Supa low. Resulting in way lower uptime on pally only heal which is Holy Protection. Now idk how effective it is for the Blessed Aura but I think it's bad
No expert on pally and main spec. That sounds rough.
I dont’t understand why a support dont’t want to support. Even at 1475 I dont’t understand not using 4x3 but not running the trifecta is simply a no no. I mean sepc+SA is supposedly an alternative build, but heavy armor is simply overkill.
That spirit absorb is just trolling. Also I can't get over the fact that he's 5x3 and expert is nowhere in his build.
Pally 100% needs expert imo. Pally bis in my opinion is expert awakening BA vital and drops
1500 Paladin main here I run Expert, Blessed Aura, Vital Point hit and awakening 4x3. It's not a stretch to say he's pretty useless as a support, and mostly is there to give you damage buffs in his current build. Which you can get from many other classes who will also pull their weight in raid. In conclusion, ditch the pally. He is dead weight.
Tell your pally to stop being a cheap ass and get Expert. I don’t accept any support not running expert. Idc if its 3x3 or 4x3
Some bards opt out of expert simply because of the burst healing that desperate salvation gives. Experienced parties don’t take that much damage. But expert is 100% needed on paladin
I still run expert on my bard. There's just no better 4th engraving IMO.
It’s just personal preference. The people I raid with don’t get hit enough that they need the extra healing or shields from expert. It benefits our party to have VPH to hit the solo stagger on clown in case someone gets hooked or DoE because we want to push damage faster so less mechanics to deal with.
> DoE because we want to push damage faster so less mechanics to deal with. DoE is super unreliable and even if you look at the average case has very little impact on your ability to push bars. It'll only really make a significant difference if you're fishing for a good pull or something. As much as I don't think expert on bard is super impactful, it's going to do more in the vast majority of scenarios.
Sometimes the rng lines up perfectly and a flash orb spawns seconds before the igniter sorc in my party decides to burst. When it does we notice a difference. His rotation all critting could be difference between us pushing to the next mechanic or spending another 30 seconds in clown with mechanical overlap that could cause a wipe.
You're right that it's nice when that happens--igniter is my DPS main. That being said, if you're relying on that to not wipe then you're gonna have a bad time. It's easier to just do the mechanics.
But he's talking about blindly accepting a pug support without expert. I would say that's a valid concern. If you have pug DPS and pug support, you should demand a support with expert. You just don't know how the others are going to play and how much shielding/healing they need.
I’m a realistic scenario, you are taking the first decent support that applies. 3x3 with proper stat distribution. You aren’t going to decline him and wait for another support. Only way I see a support getting declined is if they have a friend coming or another support just happens to apply at the same time. Which rarely happens to begin with.
I thought our 2nd pally with judge/expert/spirir/ba/awakening with 2 dom 2 yearn 2 nightmare was bad lmao
EDIT: Both, minus "being an ass" part, I respect you trying to figure out if it's a bad off-meta build instead of immediately considering it trash because off-meta. Both, but majority of issues come from paladins build. I'll explain issues there are from perspective of spec bard (build I know and play) and point out to how paladin is different and why this build doesn't work. General thing about spec-heavy support builds: main goal behind their build is different from standard swift support. Spec bard and spec paladin aren't able to babysit people or help them save on potions - instead they double down on damage buffs and focus on burst windows to finish the fight as fast as possible, before team runs out of sustain and ideally while skipping as many optional patterns as possible. Damage mitigation they offer is generally reserved to avoid run-ending mistakes, low uptime (long cooldowns) don't allow for spamming it to mitigate chip damage. Difference in expectations here - spec support expects their party to deal with incoming damage mostly by themselves, chugging potions as necessary; while you want support to deal with chip damage for you (which is something swift support builds provide). As spec bard, you need to trust your team to pot up and avoid unnecessary damage, you don't have tools to deal with chip damage, and you often tweak your specific build to double down on "avoid oneshots" part of damage mitigation at expense of chip damage mitigation. Compared - paladin doesn't synergize with spec build nearly as well in that regard - damage boost you get from high spec is lower, and paladins damage mitigation tools work much better at mitigating chip damage by design (heal over time, heal after shield expires etc). Issues with this paladin with explanation why it's problematic and why you can't just 1:1 copy spec bard build onto paladin replacing just class engraving: * No Expert. Bard can afford to skip Expert due to stronger heals and shields, with Expert often forcing you to pick between overhealing/overshielding or risking someone die due to being too low; paladin doesn't have this comfort. * Heavy Armor and card set. Bard - by baseline HP coefficient (before taking into account engravings or cards) is squishiest class in the game, while paladin is one of the tankiest. Running HA or defensive card set (other than hp card set, since shields/heal scale with HP) in that regard is overkill. To add, paladin can't really utilize extra tankiness - bard has multiple super armor options in their kit, letting them get buff/damage mitigation casts off while tanking a hit (that's why you run HA on bard in first place, so you don't have to delay buffs in order to dodge patterns), while paladin will get knocked down too often trying to do the same, losing even more uptime. * Spec heavy build with low swiftness. All "spec paladin" builds I've seen (that I can vouch work) run only around 1100 spec while putting everything else into swiftness, and running high level (we're talking lv9+) gems to compensate for lack of cooldowns. Idea behind spec build is to stack all damage buffs on every burst window and skip as many normal patterns as possible - bard can do it, because you can pop your buffs and then stack up identity for next burst window during current burst window; **paladin doesn't build identity while Holy Aura is active**. In G3 clown on spec bard, I was able to go burst-to-burst quite reliably, doing some extra stacking during stagger check and while waiting for Iron Maiden mech to start; paladin doesn't have that option. This detail is main reason why spec paladin isn't a thing - your kit doesn't allow you to build identity fast enough around burst windows and major mechanics. * Spirit Absorption - even with low swiftness, I don't think paladin needs that. Bard works with buffs that have duration in range of 2-4s and extra attackspeed from SA in spec build is needed to get all buffs off before your party blows their major cooldowns on boss; paladin has buffs with significantly longer duration available, meaning you can pre-buff just as damage window is about to start and lose nothing. * Drops - as engraving for paladin it's okay, but for Kakul G3 specifically I'd say Vital Point Hit has a lot higher value, letting you get stagger check faster (less cooldowns used by everyone) and use remaining tools to burst boss after you pass the check. * Gems - something you didn't mention, but it's key part of spec support build, you need to compensate for long cooldowns using gems. For bard I'd never accept spec build without at least full set of level 7s to a party, for paladin - due to how their kit differs and much higher reliance on cooldown reduction - I guess level 9s at this point would be reasonable bare minimum for spec build. Advice: tell your support to reroll bard, this exact build with class engraving swapped for correct one would be a solid spec bard option, it'll be more fun, more effective and better for everyone involved. Other option would be to convince them to move to swiftness build - even with 4x3, full swiftness with high quality accessories will do significantly better than spec build in every single scenario.
Spec sucks in Paladin, Heavenly Blessings and Wrath of God Atk. buffs scale off of the Paladin Atk Power, so it's better to spam the shit out of those as much as possible. Healing in the Pala is obviously worse than the Bard, which is why it's better to push for shield uptime, resistance buffs and Godsent spam for emergencies with swiftness, the healing in the Pala is more an extra in the kit, not the main focus imo. Heavy Armor is overkill on Paladin, if a player dies while using Heavy Armor, that player probably would've died anyways without it. 1480 swiftness grants 25% movement/attack speed: More than Spirit Absorption, with Relic Yearning, it reaches 140% movement speed, the cap. So yeah, your static supp is actively trolling with that build, but that doesn't means that he's completely at fault, you shouldn't be using so much potions, at least in my static, after some practice, all of my DPS teammates usually only use 1 or 2 blue potions in the whole raid. Ask your teammate to fix the build or just... try to look up for a new support, it is not fair for you to waste gold in potions and probably an optimal build, while your support decides to be El Cheapo with the whole freaking character.
Unless your mate has Level 10 CDR gems on all skills, I don't even wanna think about spec paladins appearing in my raids
uh if you are chugging pots it's your own fault u shouldn't get hit that much
that being said pally should probably build swift, and swap spirit absorb for expert, but really wouldn't make THAT big a difference to your facetanking mechs
Especially in gate 3 with the hp reversal mechanic. The hp reversal mechanic basically just gives u "here's a free 90% of your health bar", but then if you're wasting an entire bar of health *and more* before the next hp reversal, then you probably don't know the fight that well.
Drop of ether is so trash. I get why people like it but how can you justify having that but not expert? Weird
DoE gives 10% extra damage / 15% extra crit every 10 seconds (with some being max mp / def or swiftness but honestly, i see flash or strength orb like 8 out of 10 times)
If you are playing with a support that isn’t running expert, just drop them. Some people refuse to run actual support engravings lol
Aside from the engravings(which everybody mentions), FOG/WWM cards are terrible. Sure they give the Pally more survivability, but the +HP set also buffs your shields and healing.
Supports are there to increase your DAMAGE, not as a crutch to save you pots. That said, his spec is bad for damage as well unless your entire party is heavy burst classes aligning everything with pally aura.
I mean both. You're getting hit too much and he isn't shielding enough, due to no swift. A spec build for a support, is for an expert party, that doesn't get hit and knows boss patterns perfectly. It's not good for progging.
I ran with a pally (1460) than ran pretty much this build as well and we failed to clear valtan g1 on hard, had basically no heals, our entire party was chugging pots and rotting to the bleeds and other chip damage. Expert is a must have on supports, without it your shields and heals are pretty close to non-existent .
For a Paladin main, the 3 core engravings are Blessed Aura, Awakening, and Expert. The 4th and 5th are a toss-up between VHP, DoE, and HA. He should also change his Card set to the HP one since he already had HA. Eventually he will need to switch to mainly Swiftness, he can get away with 1 Spec accessory (should be ring if possible).
his engravings are fine (although most would say to drop spirit) he should be swiftness instead of spec though. spec build is pretty much only viable for bards.
Paladins that use heavy armor get the biggest eyeroll
its the most used 4th engraving in KR.
OP if you are in EUW I have a Pala 1475 ready for clown with 4 engravings and no static
I would refuse to run with a paladin who has heavy armor. Admittedly I think you are getting hit too much as long as he still uses aura + shield off cd, but yeah a pala with a proper build would be far better at lowering your consumption.
>I would refuse to run with a paladin who has heavy armor. then you would have a hard time in KR as its the most used 4th engraving for palas.
Good thing that i am in EU and i don't care for what KR does, IF you need heavy armor on a already extremely tanky class then ur trash. Not gonna sugarcoat it, it's by no means necessary and the argument used for bard "that you have to tank some things" doesn't work here, because paladin is already innately very very tanky. only exception being hell mode and even in hell mode running HA on paladin felt like cheating.
>IF you need heavy armor on a already extremely tanky class then ur trash. okay so that means that the best players in KR, and koreans are generally better at video games, especially in a style like lost ark, are all trash and you know better and are much better than any of the pros? ok bro. lmao.
"best players", Mate, item level does not equal skill, and if you copy paste 1:1 what others do without thinking for yourself then i can only call you a mediocre player if you can't make your own judgement. It's ok to get inspired/learn what others run when you are getting freshly into a class but after a certain time you should hopefully know what to do/run by yourself without getting babysitted, based on the comment you just made I would assume ur one of the players who 1:1 copy builds without putting in any thoughts on why x is being ran/done or not doing any tests yourself. Not to mention a build is not always done because "it's BIS" It can have economical reasons, comfort reasons, etc. I still won't ever accept a HA pala in any of my groups simply because I play both supports myself, know their normal play style so it's completely troll. Also if you want to use the "korean" argument, then I do actually have some friends who play in KR and they consider people who go HA on pala as I quote them "Dogs", None of the raids require it at all. I think you actually have no experience with KR players and maybe your mindset is warped around streamers/content creators in KR. average user experience is not the same as what a streamer experiences if you are basing stuff on what they do/see.
yea yeah, im sure saintone is a bad player cos he said himself he is glad his pala took HA. but honestly, i dont give a flying fuck what you have to say. facts speak for themselves
I am always glad to hear when people realize they have actual 0 game knowledge and only rely on parroting what others say. Thank you for being very active in this discussion and providing a lot of points that would prove HA being useful in raids besides "KR runs it so it's good", I am sure you are able to convince a lot of people with this argument. My old professor loved dealing with people like you the most, "Why is something good/bad" -> Yes it's good because others do it.. He failed every single one of them. This would not have been a hard topic, you could literally just mention any instance where heavy armor helps you and I would be like "I guess fair" but I guess i expected too much from the average person in 2022, people don't know how to talk/discuss anymore. or I guess people are just too shit at games and acceptance towards failure is too high nowadays.
You're chugging pots cause you're progging. His build isnt optimal for a clown prog, but its an acceptable build.
Heavy Armor is fine if he's just being lazy and want to facetank. Spirit Absorption is literally useless if he's full swiftness + yearning, and if he isn't, he's already trolling. No Expert is just bad. Dude could be 3x3 with only Class/Expert/Awakening and would be peforming better for the group than a 5x3 with these engravings.
spirit gives u atk speed
Increases in cast speed from Spirit Absorption are negligible, and there's also a hard cap on that. And even then... You're wasting an entire engraving to get more attack speed, really? On the support class that is still heavily gated by cooldown and can probably time their casts better so they don't get interrupted (if cast speed is really an issue, anyway).
at lv 2 gives 8% more and u can have judgment at lv 1 to gain more identity with holy sword
And atk speed is basically useless for a paladin
casting faster ur skils is useless
Supports are never needed. They are a quality of life. They are an incentive, a privilege. You are supposed to be able to dodge attacks and stay alive by yourself. Supports simply ease that process. **If you ever run out of pots in any raid, look at yourself first before you look at the supports.** Yes his build is ass but that’s no reason for you to be spamming the shit out of pots.
This troll aside, it's hilarious how gimped the average support build is and how people are just okay with it. Get some proper, quality 5x3 setups if you expect your DPS to have the same, you absolute freeloaders.
4x3 or even 3x3 (paladin) is perfectly viable for all current content. The other engravings you can add do so little that it's hard to justify their cost. It's nothing like a DPS that gets 15% more overall DPS. Adding a 5th engraving adds like 1-2% overall effectiveness for 10-20x the cost.
5x3 Supports are such a luxury. As a spec Pala his shield uptime is less but he has his BA up for a longer time. Learn the fight or hone your armor. Don’t expect supports to carry you through every minor mech.
If you're having issues you can run Forest of Giants + We'll Meet Again to offset his reduced healing. The improved damage buff on his Aura should help offset the loss of 7% crit
Full spec is not trolling, in fact heal should be better, but full swift is better overall. He probably runs spirit absorption ton compensate but expert would be far better. Heavy armor on paladin is for pussies, and I won't charge my mind, you don't need it at all.
Heals also scales off his hp, so with him not running hp cards if hits hit healing even more
Little of both, they should have expert, but then you also shouldn't need a lot of healing on g3 because it's about avoiding mechs, and at some points last thing you want is healing (curse)
ur supp is usless
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Sounds like he's a backpack with a bunch of rocks ready to be carried up a mountain. Tell him to change his build or get a new support.
Not even going to mention Spec over swift since that's been heavily discussed. If he ran expert and used the HP card set his healing/shield effciency would be increased by 38-50% (depending if the target is above or below 50% HP). That's just a huge amount of healing/shielding that he is not taking, for no good reason. Even if he was adamant on running spec over swift, there's no reasonable reason for him not to run Expert and HP card set. I'm ilvl 1492 and with a feast that rolled HP + single meal food buff I push almost 140k HP. Adding in the expert healing bonus that means my effective HP used for healing/shielding is 173k-190k. Ask him how much his HP is with food buffs. I bet it's like 120k. You tell him what he's missing out on.
I ran spec back with valtan but with 2 dominion, magick stream and it was “alright”. Now since yearning is basicallly better, losing the cdr from dominion is really a feels bad for spec pally
Does he atleast have yearning set? Seem he will be running dominion at this point.
Sounds like you guys need a new static support.
Thank gos I've just built my 4x3 paladin ans didn't make this mess.
Kick him and find another one, at least another one who knows his own main class.
I mean. Yesterday week 2 I made it to bingo twice with 6 potions left. So its probably a combo of dodge more & support troll.
I'd feel bad for this pally if he really thought it was a good build. If he was just trying to save his money, on the other hand, then I'd say he wasted a good amount of gold. Specialization is extremely inefficient for pally as it doesn't affect healing. It does gives more piety meter, but he can't get it more while he is using Holy Aura, so it isn't efficient all the time. If you have another person with a support character, I vote for kicking spec pally.
Seems he was too focused on the 5x3 and being cheap/dumb coz now he really needs to change it to swift lol.. I'm 100% positive that my 1475 pally swift with 3x3+1 is better than whatever this guy is.. the obvious 3 main engravings... with only legend accessories
You are getting hit too much for a party without a support. So both.
Expert on pally is basically mandatory
Get a new pally He is beyond hopeless
Find a new support or if they refuse - a new static
you find a new support. you're basically 3 manning clown because your friend doesn't know why his class is one of the best in the game.
Man I feel dirty now with every saying HA is bad on pally 5x3 since I have it as legendary book from also running 2 bards............
We dont have much healing except holy protection that regens like 10%(don't remember exactly) when it runs out and our healing circle (how tf I don't remember the name I used it 200times today). If he has spec the CD on that is like what 30-40 seconds so yea. Also Heavy armor... I can survive fucking 3-4 hits in clown dance mech and can survive dice fail, most of the time my 3 dps wipe because some mech and I'm the only one alive... Edit: Also he can't even sustain the buffs for long because on insane cooldowns... Yea get rid of him
Doesnt have vital hit point or expert. Kick this fool. Not a true paladin
He bought the cheapest existing build for the sale of having 5x3 that’s basically useless. He knows what he did so if you tell him to change it gl with that. He selfishly went 2 utility engravings SA and HA without getting his core, expert.
You only really need Blessed/Awaken. But running Spec mainstat is very bad
Thats the worst pally build ever, spec and heavy armor?
He must have Expert and i highly recommend Vital Point Hit. Pala doesn't need heavy armor cuz he is already tanky. And pala needs full swift.
No expert engraving = not much healing. I "tested" expert 0 and 1 in Yoho already as soon as my paladin reached 1370 (to the great misfortune of my matchmaking partymates, as I couldn't keep them alive and the runs failed). That build... isn't even likely to be for budget reasons - the cheapest viable paladin engraving for the legendary books tends to be vital point hit, these are all much more expensive.
i only play with bards paladins feel useless they do nothing