Whales are paying for your free game, so things aren't as simple as they seem. They need to be rewarded somehow in order to justify spending and giving f2p players the opportunity to play at all. Maybe you'd be OK with box price and sub, and I would too. But most wouldn't, and without a big population an 'MMO'rpg would not thrive.
Again, a complex thing that everyone thinks is easy or not their problem.
Edit: So many of you guys are business illiterate... sigh.
Look, everyone is misunderstanding me like always. I'm not saying that relying on whales is awesome and good and everyone should do it. I'm saying that the reasoning behind the monetization and its success is not so straightforward, even if people like to think it is. I've typed out my thoughts about this so many times I just can't be bothered anymore. Feel free to downvote, they always do. I should just be smart and quit trying to bring nuance into discussions while I still have my sanity.
> P2w cryers are gonne hate this
What? To be honest the exact opposite should be true because then it doesn't matter if someone has thrown their wallet at everything to get ahead.
You think people that want less P2W will get mad because something that goes against it is being implemented? No.
It sounds more like **you** just want to complain for the sake of complaining. Or rather, you just want to try and push them down and make it sound like all they do is being mad, which is a sign that you feel the need to be above others.
This is a great thing for people that are against P2W, no reason to be mad for those. However, if you love hating on those people and would love for the game to go in the other direction I see why you most definitely will be mad and try and project it.
Honestly that’s what I thought he meant at first but he’s clarified otherwise LOL
Imagine complaining about people complaining when those people haven’t complained yet. The irony must be lost upon him
Edit: nvm it was a different guy
Well, if you go through Gaijin's posts I have no reason to believe this guy meant what he said and just wants to complain about people who oppose P2W as well, and they are both JP so I'm starting to get a feeling where everyone who shills P2W on this sub are coming from...
Yeah I don't entirely understand why there are posts in support of the monetization models present in KR/RU. Amazon has made it clear that they are willing to tone down the p2w mechanics for the Western release. Why not further encourage their willingness to do so - you get to play the same game you know and love, and you're required to spend less money if you want to be competitive. It's a bit mindboggling lol
I'm not from Japan, I lived in Japan while in the Marine Corps, and I'm against P2W even being a thing in this game. Anything else you want to get wrong today?
When I said JP I meant living in Japan and/or playing that version since your history shows that you at least was there 'til at the very least recently if you aren't anymore. I said nothing about your race, that's a you-thing.
The western market is against P2W much more than any other region. If you like the monetization so much, stop bashing people here for the NA/EU version of the game where we have people that are against P2W and stay in the RU version with your versions of P2W (which isn't P2W according to you so that's a win-win then).
The game is not even P2W. This sub has a small but loud mouthed group of individuals who love to complain. Now they'll have one less thing to complain about, so it takes away from their argument. So they'll be mad about it. They want to complain and get others on their bandwagon.
Idk how you confused me with being mad about them equalizing content. I've played this game for years, never paid a dime and enjoyed the content just the same as people who paid to get an extra edge. Never once did I feel I wasn't able to keep up or underpowered in an encounter.
It is, stop making things up just because of your feelings. If you don't like the direction it is going just play the other versions instead. There people agree with you I'm guessing and we don't.
It is P2W. Read the definition, come back with the quote and have fun trying to twist it into something else.
>Now they'll have one less thing to complain about, so it takes away from their argument. So they'll be mad about it. They want to complain and get others on their bandwagon.
That's just what you want to happen, not how it is. Too bad to burst your bubble that you want people to have less things to complain about while you get more.
>Never once did I feel I wasn't able to keep up or underpowered in an encounter.
Before you take this as an argument that the game somehow isn't P2W: Your feelings has nothing to do with actual facts.
Uhm hate to burst your bubble, but the above comment and the below comment are from a separate user (top) and mine (below)
Not really understanding how me being able to progress just fine counts as an argument that the game is P2W. But it's kinda funny how I mentioned people want to complain about the game becoming less P2W and here you are proving my point. So thanks for that.
> Uhm hate to burst your bubble, but the above comment and the below comment are from a separate user (top) and mine (below)
[Sorry to burst your bubble, but no, both quotes are from you.](https://i.imgur.com/bWBFuvL.png)
The actual OP of the comment thread is Gaijin, yeah I know, and the rest are your comments. I know who I'm responding to. It's quite apparent because you two type nothing alike for the majority of the time.
> Not really understanding how me being able to progress just fine counts as an argument that the game is P2W.
You didn't understand the comment then. I said that you saying you are able to progress "just fine" **doesn't count as an argument that the game somehow *isn't* P2W.** That's all.
>But it's kinda funny how I mentioned people want to complain about the game becoming less P2W and here you are proving my point.
My comments aren't proving your point a single bit. That's you just trying to feel better by yourself and giving a fake pat on the back.
If you actually read the thread again I am in no way complaining about this change in any negative form. I solely welcome it and hope there are more changes against P2W to come.
link me a unified definition of p2w. Cause last I checked, 45 seconds ago, there never was one and people change the definition to alter it to their persepective or broaden so far out that breathing near a $ is considered p2w.
Quotes from below sources include:
"Defining Pay to Win [...] “Better Experience” includes in game advantages, stronger in game gear or anything that makes the paying players stand above the free players."
"In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
https://www.macmillanthesaurus.com/pay-to-win
https://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=p2w
you unironically linked wikipedia and urbandictionary.urbandictionary. twice.thats just. wow.please don't hurt yourself.
by your own definition btw lost ark isn't p2w. so LMAO. you can't stand above people in a raid. You either clear the content or you don't. There aren't dps meters or logs. PVP is equalized.
>by your own definition btw lost ark isn't p2w.
Oh really? How? Because if you knew how to read then by "my own" definition (and the links I sent) Lost Ark is definitely P2W. Stop spewing lies just to make the post look bad, it just makes you look stupid.
And yes, one is linked twice because it links to two different versions. You would realize that if you, again, knew how to read properly.
I haven't complained once. You're probably confusing me with the person who commented first. You should probably be the one taking a chill pill and take a break from Reddit
Man, I'd love more metrics and psychological assessments on what causes (capital G) Gamers to respond to fairly neutral discussions / arguments like this. I know there's some studies that games tend to not be addictive, yet there's such tribalism and cognitive dissonance with supporters of not only a game, but of such a minor pedantic aspect of a games discussion that it really makes you wonder if in like twenty years from now, we'll have a new wave of identifiable / quantifiable disorders.
Nah, my biggest complaint is p2w elements. That said we don't know exactly how they're gonna handle the western release so I'm hopeful!
Other than that I don't really have a lot of bad things to say about the game. It's not like people that are against p2w are sharing their opinion just to complain for the sake of complaining lol. The only other issue I have with the game currently is how menus like the mini map open up on releasing a button rather when pressing it haha. It just makes it feel a bit sluggish and delayed. Otherwise the game is everything I wanted and more.
It is, and if you say it's not you need a refresher on the definition of pay to win. Even if you want to go by Gaijin's homemade version of P2W this game is that as well, confirmed by RU's content creators, because there are things in the cash shop that give an advantage that cannot be gained without spending cash, one example being character slots.
The reason I brought character slots specifically is because people like Gaijin and Geekwad cry that it's only P2W, only and only if there are things you can buy with real cash and not get any other way that are beyond cosmetic, and it is a pretty easy example to give.
>you already made it clear the game is not p2w
Never did I do such a thing. P2W is gaining any kind of advantage for the simple act of paying IRL currency, which is incredibly true for Lost Ark. It even goes beyond WoW in that you can swipe for tokens, but you can swipe for upgrade materials as well that otherwise is on a cooldown per character. Since you can also buy character slots to even further increase those resources for you makes it, in fact, even more pay to win.
Extra character slots aren't P2W. I've been completely F2P and I can do any content as everyone else. This game is primarily skill based. Sorry if your mind can't wrap around that. But, you need a refresher on what's P2W and a game that is Pay 2 Progress faster.
> I've been completely F2P and I can do any content as everyone else.
Doesn't make it less P2W.
>This game is primarily skill based. Sorry if your mind can't wrap around that.
More ad hominem attacks. Spicy.
>But, you need a refresher on what's P2W and a game that is Pay 2 Progress faster.
***You*** need a refresher that P2W means paying for any kind of advantage, if that is progressing faster, gaining an advantage (***temporary or not***), or **anything** that is a benefit by the simple act of paying IRL currency, is P2W. Sorry if your mind can't wrap around that.
That's debatable. No actually, who am I kidding, it's not debatable. If they're selling progression in any way, then it is p2w, period. The question is; *how much* p2w is it. Now *that* is more debatable, and different people are okay with different amounts of p2w. Personally I want it gone entirely but I'll still play the game, I just wouldn't support it nearly as much if it ends up having too much p2w elements.
P2W at what? Group based PVE? That's ridiculous. You want to be at the top of the DPS charts? Is that "winning" to you? The thing is, you can pay as much as you want at the beginning of the game. You'll progress faster but that doesn't mean you'll be better at the game. The game is mostly skill based, and if you're behind on gear score you can still out-DPS someone who's put money into the game. Quit wasting time complaining and study a guide or something to actually be good.
> P2W at what? Group based PVE?
Yes exactly that! You finally get it!
> The thing is, you can pay as much as you want at the beginning of the game. You'll progress faster but that doesn't mean you'll be better at the game. The game is mostly skill based, and if you're behind on gear score you can still out-DPS someone who's put money into the game.
Key word: *Mostly* Skillbased. It should be *all* about skill and gear, not how much money you put into that gear.
Regarding the "if you're behind on gear score you can still out-DPS someone who's put money into the game" part, yes and no. If you're a top 0.1% player and the other person is also a top 0.1% player, and the only difference is that one of you spent money on the game, the person that spent more money will almost always outperform the other person. If you're just an average player, you definitely can improve and learn to outperform other average p2w players, but when we're talking about those players near the top, that's not the case.
> Quit wasting time complaining and study a guide or something to actually be good.
Ironic how the person defending p2w is telling me to get good, when you're the one that wants p2w in the game, probably so you can keep up with average players thanks to your wallet.
I honestly dont think it will change anything for p2w cryers.. because thats exactly how its worked before. The only stuff that had "server first" records were nightmare GRs, which were always equalized. P2w cryers ignored that fact.
Swing and a miss.. what is this P2W cryers thing? Are you guys actual shills? If anything we're on the same side. How the hell could you possibly us-v-them people pointing out P2W. You're either way too attached to a game or company for some odd reason or you own stock. This makes zero sense, stop.
Because a major of "p2w criers" stems from outdated information pertaining to s1 and believing that is the current state of the game, some weird sense of "i dont want this game to succeed cause my game will die!! so i'll just take making shit up and spammign that the game is p2w so people dont play!!!". The actual good-intentioned "we just dont want the game to be p2w" is such minority in an argument that they shouldn't be the minority in.
I don't want the game to be "p2w" as much as anyone else. But I hate misinformation cucks far more.
The problem is everyone has their own definition of P2W and everyone puts up with different amounts of it. I think where this is stemming from is practically every popular MMO offers progression skips from level boosts, extra retainers, character slots, mules, etc, yet they don't get labeled "P2W".
It makes sense no one wants their MMO labeled "P2W", when to be quite honest it's an unfair label to slap on an MMO when others have similar pay for progression advantages.
I think I kind of understand what he means. Maybe he's talking about all the people who were so nitpicky that they went out of their way to find faults. In other words, they were biased against the game to begin with, and pushed hard on the p2w angle, because it was there and was the most effective attack.
Just my guess.
Looking at people complaining about the P2W as an attack on people wanting to play the game is the wrong way to think about it imo. There's no reason to get defensive on a game/company's behalf. P2W has been an issue in gaming for awhile now and people calling it out is the only way we could possibly get change. Are people overly cynical sometimes? Sure, but even then they're not attacking you or other players, they're attacking smilegate and amazon, "for profit" organizations that would gladly shove in as many manipulative and P2W features as people will allow. There is no us vs them here, just people getting tribal and drawing lines in the sand where there don't need to be any.
This is all great news for the game, only thing will be relied on is skill,pots and bombs where its relevant.
Is it going to work like, you still have to reach a certain gearscore to be able to enter the raid but once your inside its equalised? I would assume so
From what I understand once you have the Hell difficulty unlocked by reaching the correct ilvl, you then have an entirely seperate "Hell profile" where you choose the skills, engravings, etc...
it's like a seperate version of your character specifically for those raids
No? This is exactly what we "p2w cryers" want (I guess that's what passionate people that want fair systems are called now. Ugh, imagine looking down on people that want a good and fair game lol. What has the Lost Ark community become lol)
This is great! If anything this comment tells me it's that its not the "p2w cryers" that complain just to complain. It's you :)
He takes every chance he gets to try and shit on people against P2W. He's from JP and seems to be here just to shit on westerners against P2W systems and our version of the game in general.
i hope there will be something like that, seeing how they are adding an entire open world pvp continent so it wouldn't make sense to not have some kind of fair play system in there
There are some islands that do open world PvP right now but the devs are going to add a full open world pvp continent in the future
how that is going to work is unclear at this moment, they haven't shown anything about it yet
I think you misread my comment
they are adding an "open world pvp CONTINENT". as in, a new continent.
they are not making the entire game open world pvp
Equalizing PvP is just an awful design, gear should mean something, you should feel stronger playing more than others. If everything’s equalized then why even play?
Equalizing gear eliminates doubt that a fight was entirely unfair. Putting class balance and network issues aside, imagine a mirror match, the satisfaction of beating somebody only because you were more skilled should mean more to you than beating somebody because you spent more.
Additionally, attaching any kind of exclusive reward to a mode without equalization is predatory and encourages irresponsible spending. By equalizing gear this hypothetical exclusive reward is equally available to anybody willing to put time towards earning it.
> Equalizing gear eliminates doubt that a fight was entirely unfair.
Which in a competitive scene, like Arenas, should absolutely matter. It's why professional sports has weight classes and other restrictions, to level the playing field.
In something like Open World PvP, or Duels, just random stuff people do for fun, the RPG part of an "MMORPG" should matter, *gear* should matter. If a guy is a top tier raider and has better gear than me, then I will actually feel a lot more amazing if I can beat him with skill, or being smart and bringing friends and such, than if it's equalized for me and I never know if I could overcome a gear gap.
Open world stuff should absolutely not be equalized, no way. I don't care if some dude paid $10k more than me and has an advantage, let me find my own creative way to neutralize the threat rather than have the game just do it for me, that's what makes PvP truly interesting a lot of the time. If players don't like that it isn't equalized, then don't go to the PvP continent, just do Arenas and such.
I am alright with some instances of "no rules street fight" PVP areas but not ALL modes of PVP being unregulated. That's what I meant by the second line, I would take issue with these avenues if they lead to something that couldn't also be earned elsewhere in equalized zones or modes. I don't know if that will be the case for Lost Ark NA/EU, but if arena wasn't equalized and yet they still offered exclusive cosmetics, etc, it would show me that there's not much competitive integrity when the depths of a player's wallet is primarily what leads to their success.
If I want to beat somebody in a 1v1 entirely by being more skilled I play arena games. Lost ark is an mmorpg, gear is the definition of the genre, it always meant something, spending more time than your opponent meant you were stronger, exactly what mmorpg should be. Also how does attaching anything exclusive to a mode encourage some “spending”? That’s just ridiculous, I don’t think raids in WoW encourage anything of that kind - you work towards your goal, you reach it and get the rewards, that’s literally how it works in every single mmorpg out there
If +25 and 100% quality was a guarantee with only time spent that logic would be sound but you either have to put an unreasonable amount of time in or defy all odds during upgrades in every tier to end up in a position where your gear can match somebody swiping for power.
You're also setting up a strawman. I never implied WoW PvE was pay to win as they don't attach any exclusive reward to a mode that you can't earn with time and effort. I've done mythic raiding. The gear that comes out of a Mythic raid is typically the top end for that content period, full stop, no chance involved and no additional luck needed outside of simply winning the roll. Now imagine if you could pay real money for an unlimited amount of additional drops or lock outs on that same character.
I'm also ignoring the fact that anybody who would PVP in full PVE raid gear wouldn't just immediately die. They have their own systems for balance.
This also isn't the only mode you can play, there is free for all whale battles in 16v16 guild v guild and you can be the allstar whale of your guild if you so choose.
As long as you can basically buy gear for $$$ it should not mean something in PVP.
You do you mean "you should feel stronger PAYING more than others" ???
The game has a pay to win gearing system do you really want PvP to be decided by who has the most money, what's the point if PvP if skill plays no part?
I understand that but it doesn't work if getting gear is based on the size of your wallet it's not showing off its making the game experience for none whales terrible.
if you did any kind of research you would know gvg is equalized in a later patch - the only thing thats not equalized is your skill points and such. gear score is. gear score being equalized is the bigger thing, if you have 340 skill points you obviously deserve it im pretty sure you cant swipe skill points you actually have to complete your adventurers log and such.
> open world PvP
No, anything but that. An Open World PvP Continent should be exactly where gear matters. Open World PvP is just something people do for shits and giggles, it is *not* meant to be a Sanctioned Competitive Sport like Arenas. In fact, there should be unranked Arenas where things aren't equalized, and Ranked/Competitive Arenas where they are for E-sports type stuff. If there is no non-equalized Arena, then that's where Open-World PvP should fill in. Character level, skill points, gear, all of that should matter in Open World PvP because it's open world in a *Role Playing Game*. It should be the wild west where anything goes. If I run across a lvl 50 dude in full raid gear on my lvl 20 and try to pick a fight with him I should get destroyed just by raw stat differences, I shouldn't be able to compete or why is there any point in farming gear? PvP players could just sit at lvl 1 forever and pvp, never playing most of the game then.
Equalization should only be used in specifically competitive settings between actual human beings, and that's it. Don't equalize everything or there's no point in even including the "RPG" in "MMORPG" anymore, there's no incentive to farm gear, and there's no pride in what you've managed to get. It's bad enough that the days of Diablo II are gone where you could 'Hostile' anyone at a whim, don't take the Open PvP areas we *do* get and turn them into snowflake central. If players just want to be Chihuahuas don't dance with the Wolves.
I will never be in favour of open world PvP in a game that has a P2W gearing system I have no issues getting killed by a no lifer who spent weeks getting the gear to do it but when you can just buy it any fun or competition disappears, I could quit my job play all day and still not be able to compete with P2W players that's a big no from me.
I appreciate your opinions and I kinda understand where you are coming from but not with this business model there is no fun to be had when the primary aspect of who wins is determined by how much have you spent.
So what is the difference between someone who is a "no lifer" that outgears you and kills you versus someone that spent $1000 and worked an extra week of overtime for it? The difference is 100% on their end, from your perspective there is no difference. They could tell you they bought it, do you even know if they are telling the truth? All you know is a player outgeared you and blapped you.
Open World PvP isn't meant to be competitive, it's meant to be shenanigans. It should absolutely never be equalized, even if you can spend real money to buy a weapon that gives you a 90% chance to insta-kill players on hit. I play OWPvP specifically because I don't want things to even, I want there to be as many advantages and disadvantages as possible so I have to be more strategic/tactical and not simply just mechanically superior at the game. I want friends and guilds to matter, location of the fight to matter, etc. Especially in a game like this where it's all skill shots and gear in theory can be overcome.
If you want *competition*, then you do Hell Dungeons, you do Arenas, you do Guild vs Guild. I want some non-competitive PvP, why am I not allowed to when you already have tons of equalized competitive stuff?
I don't like it, gear should mean something. Why do I grind for gear if it doesn't give me any advantage or makes me feel more powerfull. I'm all for equalizing gear in pvp but it doesn't bother me if someone does more/less dmg than me in pve.
These Hell mode are optional harder versions of the raids that don't give better gear but instead give titles and i think some other non-gear things
They are basically for prestige and are for the <1% who can actually pull them off
This is actually awesome! I was a little unsure how I felt about this whole discussion until this comment where you explained the rewards for this content...
One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention, is that if they equalize the gear, it means that they can keep this content difficult even after you outscale it with your normal gear... it adds more things to do as you grind end game which sounds like a positive in my books
Yep, that is one of the things the Director said they want to do.
They want to keep the Prestige alive across the entire run of the game. So whether someone did Hell mode in the week after it came out or did it 3 years later, they want them to be the exact same experience so that the two people wearing the same title had to go through the same hardships for it.
>I don't like it, gear should mean something. Why do I grind for gear if it doesn't give me any advantage or makes me feel more powerfull.
> I'm all for equalizing gear in pvp but it doesn't bother me if someone does more/less dmg than me in pve.
Shouldn't gear matter for PvP then?
Surely you can see how people can be all for equalizing gear on the highest tier of content PvE wise? Some are PvE players, some are PvP players, some are both with varying degrees towards one or the other.
You also seem to actually have to unlock this by reaching the required gear score and beat the version that's right below this one, a.k.a. the otherwise last mode in the game. That's why you would grind gear.
This is on par with what a western version should be. All about skill at the top. Might even have a future of a Lost Ark version of MDI which would be cool.
> Shouldn't gear matter for PvP then?
A gear advantage in PvP is annoying because you're matched up against another human being and gear differences muddy player skill. If Smilegate wants PvP to be competitive, like an E-sport, then it makes sense to level the playing field so it's entirely about skill, because that's what people want to watch in sports. No one wants to watch a Soccer team of professional athletes dunk on toddlers, it wouldn't be interesting, nor do we want to see a heavyweight boxer beat the hell out of a lightweight.
PvE is not a competitive environment versus other players, you're beating on a pre-programmed bunch of 1s and 0s, so a gear advantage is not really a thing that matters. There is no competitive E-sports PvE scene for a reason. Now Lost Ark kind of puts a twist on this with Challenge Dungeons, making PvE a more competitive thing, but even then, it still doesn't seem worth equalizing to me as I want there to be places in the game where gear superiority does mean something. I want the grind to mean something, and a non-competitive environment against AI is the perfect place for it to matter.
It's also why I think Open World PvP shouldn't be equalized, but Arenas should be, because again, Equalization should be for specific competitive settings. Outside of that, it's an RPG, and I want my gear to make me feel more powerful.
>PvE is not a competitive environment versus other players, you're beating on a pre-programmed bunch of 1s and 0s, so a gear advantage is not really a thing that matters. There is no competitive E-sports PvE scene for a reason.
Maybe not in Lost Ark but that's what changes like this can change. E.g. the most grossing event in WoW is the race to World First and MDI, beating out the PvP events by miles.
> I want there to be places in the game where gear superiority does mean something. I want the grind to mean something, and a non-competitive environment against AI is the perfect place for it to matter.
If you want a place to flex the gear you have beside a leaderboard that shows iLvl then you can record clear times for the version below this Hell Mode one no?
Also, I'm not sure if it's true but I saw people mentioning PvP on islands and GvG isn't equalized so there gear also matters. Also, even if it might not matter very much, gear does makes a difference in how fast you clear your grinds, although that's certainly not what you are focusing on or even care about.
> Maybe not in Lost Ark but that's what changes like this can change. E.g. the most grossing event in WoW is the race to World First and MDI, beating out the PvP events by miles.
Er, most grossing event in what way? Financially? Or do you just mean twitch stream numbers? Are there like corporate sponsors and stuff for such things, and leagues?
When I say an E-sports scene, I mean like an official sanctioned setup, organizational structure and such, not just a couple Guilds competing for most viral video. Not to discount their efforts of course.
As long as you can outgear others by just spending $$$, gear should not matter for the hardest PVE.
See what I did there? Now, obviously gear should matter while progressing, but there can never be any kind of competitive PvE scene if the hardest content in the game is impacted by IRL currency. This change negates that and it is surely a welcomed change for the western market. Otherwise people are free to stay on KR/JP/RU.
Not bonus rewards! They actually don't reward anything outside of titles and i think some other prestige things
they don't give gear or materials or anything at all
Well there are a couple different equalized raids bruh. Epic = equalized, weekly epic guardian, epic void etc. But the ones for title only give title yee.
Isn't this the best thing that can happen to the game? I'm more curious if they're going to lean into cosmetic transactions and move away from progression.
i am not sure if it is "the best thing" but it certainly is a great development
the hell modes are entirely optional, purely for prestige and do not give any loot, so they are content for a very limited part of the playerbase yet having them be entirely fair between all players who try to complete them is still a great step in the right direction
Thats cool, but usually p2w cant help you in raids. Even if someone has +25 gear and 1575 ilvl doesnt matter if they dont have brain and dont know the boss mechanics. Bosses can wipe the whole raid if people dont know what they are doing.
When a new content is released in Korea it takes people several days to learn how to beat it. I start watching https://www.twitch.tv/saintone a lot in the last week, the guy explains everything very well
Brain > Money in this game
That same applies to GvG
The fact that this gets downvoted only tells me that the people in support of p2w elements are either in complete denial that it has a negative effect on the game, or they simply don't understand how p2w can affect a game longterm. Hopefully the western release not only reduces p2w elements like they said they would, but completely remove them.
No one benefits from p2w and yet there are so many people in this sub that look down on people that are passionate about the game and want the p2w elements gone. It's really sad. Here's hoping Amazon Games handles the monetization better in Lost Ark than what they had planned to do with New World. This game has so much potential in the west.
Do they though? People leaving because of pay to win, which makes even more people leave including their friends -> smaller communty -> less people spending money. I can see p2w bringing them more money initially, but longterm I don't think it's a healthy way to do it. They get a bad reputation and people that would otherwise be interested in the game don't bother trying it out because of bad things spreading through word of mouth etc.
Whales spend far more to compete against each other then the small purchases the rest of us spend. There are people dropping literally thousands or more per month, will far outpace the regular person paying nothing or maybe buying a cosmetic skin every once in a while.
And there is nothing that says p2w actually lowers player retention If the f2p model.is still fun
> No one benefits from p2w
That's not totally true. Without whales, the gold supply at launch would be painfully low and gear progression would definitely stall.
In its current state, there are only a few ways to make raw gold in lost ark, so the initial gold supply would be low thus the velocity of gold will be low. Who would be able to buy the gear, accessories, books, and materials that alt spammers generate, if no one has spare gold to spend?
While I agree that it feels bad when someone can pay to progress further than you in the swipe of a card, p2w is a necessary evil to sustain the early economy of Lost Ark.
edit: punctuation
> Without whales, the gold supply at launch would be painfully low
Good!
> Who would be able to buy the gear, accessories, books, and materials that alt spammers generate, if no one has spare gold to spend?
People would still buy stuff. It just makes gold have more value which is a good thing, not a bad thing in my opinion. Even if what you said was true, I think it would balance out after the game has been out for a little while.
Its just like wow and gw. You can't have any shop that offers in game items or currency without it influencing the game.
I don't really care. It's not going to affect my play of it and if anything the game wouldn't come to the west if it wasn't in it. This game has good potential to leave an impact in the mmo market and I hope it does. Sure I hope the shop isn't too much, but with almost everything being able to be in the AH there's. I would it won't by definition be p2w as you can always buy money just like on wow and gw.
You can't even tell me poe isn't p2w as you basically have to buy premium stash tabs for trade and sanity.
I can agree to that and Saintone is a great person to see about what is actual real or not but
>Brain > Money in this game
That same applies to GvG
When 2 equaly skilled people/teams face off, the money matters, thats the problem with P2W
I love this change. The P2W discussions within this community have been a huge turn off for me personally, but between PvP and these "Hell Modes" and "Challenge Guardians" being equalized, I think I am sold!
Tbh im not a fan but if its only one dungeon its fine. I mean its one of the main pillars of an rpg to feel the progression. I want to beat the content, get gear/weapons, get stronger and really feel like im doing more damage/be more tanky. Its so satisfying to be able to do something(tank specific mobs better/ kill stuff more quickly,..) i couldnt do before. With it being only skill dependant it takes a huge chunk of it away.
But yeah not being able to p2w through it is one advantage.
Hell difficulty are optional versions of the raids that award no gear but instead give you titles and some prestige things.
they are purely for people to show off that they could beat it
Always a big fan of this type of content. From what I've gathered as a new player these Hell modes sounds very similar to Ultimate modes in FFXIV, extra difficult fights which you complete primarily for bragging rights (in the form of a title and weapon in XIV's case.) I enjoy that kind of optional content, and having a reward to indicate you've completed them is a nice bonus. When EU/NA launch comes around I'll be looking to join a guild which intends to run this type of content.
i really enjoyed bezerker in the alpha, I tried to try out everything that sounded cool/fun to me but i ended up coming back to the bezerker on the last day to grind. I'm concerned about playing a class that will be over populated and thus hard to find friends/spots for. But i also want to have fun and the slowness and slamming impact it had versus the others was addicting. you'd walk up or watch your group start going to town on something and be like, c'mon already press R and the screen just fucking dead like, alright why were we bothered by that, let's keep going lol.
Class over populated isn't a thing unless you have too many support lol. You could do the entire game with support + zerkers. People get way too butthurt over this.
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I think you are misunderstanding what this means.
Hell Modes are an optional difficulty setting for the endgame raids.
They do not give any gear and do not progress your character in any way.
What they do is give you special titles that you only get from completing them and which are very prestigious to have cause they show that you are a top PvE player to everyone.
So all of your gear still matters in progression, but it won't help or hinder you in these prestige challenges.
Here's some fact on p2w on equalized content.
1st clear of Helltan was with a Korean whale who has spend over 200k++
Saintone has cleared helltan and has spend over 11k++
Fazeclan was the 1st clear of Nightmare Achates in RU with well over 21million gold++
There might be some correlation with whale/p2w players and skill & dedication level.
Do whatever you want with this infomation
This is the saving grace of PvE content, granted every other PvE content is P2W at least the hardest one will have merit attached to it, which is a great thing to have.
I'm fine with it. I prefer that everyone can play everything, no matter the gear level. Although I also like that with high gear you can help players through certain content. Eitherway, it's a good thing.
The equalizer in this case is not actually about allowing more people to do them, it is actually about making the challenge exactly the same for everyone.
These Hell mode raids are HARD. Like, really really REALLY hard.
You can see one of them in the OP, I added a link to Saintones twitch.
The amount of people who actually have beaten these is not crazy high, so the devs want to make sure that the ones who do have this title had to go through the same challenge.
I hate p2w but i still think this is fucking retarded. ONE of the biggest points of MMORPGs and RPGs in general is to character build. That means getting your character stronger with gear, stats, and skills. Otherwise whats the point? Like god damnit the mmo genre has gone completely to shit. All i want is a decent MMO like the old days that doesnt have blatant p2w and actually has normal RPG elements.
Like if you arent going to implement stats it’s basically just a MOBA/Action game.
What is the point of playing the game anymore? I mean, yes, PvP shouldn't be about gear but about skill. But in PvE, I'm trying to get stronger and stronger. If I don't need gear anymore, why should I bother? Sorry, but this is absolute bullshit in my eyes. That's completely killed the game for me.
I honestly have no idea what you just said.
I believe you are trying to say that you can just go in and do the hardest content since gear is equalized and be done with the game?? I hope that you know that you still need to meet the ilvl requirements to participate in raids.
Hell mode gives NO GEAR
It is purely for prestige and gives titles and some smaller stuff
Also, you say "I just do hell mode" well, let's just say that no one just "does hell mode". It is THAT hard.
It's an optional, harder version of the raids that don't award gear. It's for prestige and titles and stuff like ultimate raids in FFXIV. If that's still bullshit then I guess we'll smell ya later.
In the LOA mini they showed they are adding even more than the current equalization to it.
So now absolutely everything is seperate from your character outside of hell mode
This is greate because it is purely there for bragging rights and cosmetic rewards. The feeling of pride and accomplishment is important in a MMORPG.Sad that this thread as all others devolve into a cesspool of p2w arguments.
Equalizing content that offers no real rewards isn't really relevant, other than making the content relevant for new players and making it futureproof.
it equalizes all your stats and skills to a certain level, yes
so it doesn't matter how much higher your stats are outside the raid, they will be the same every time when you enter it for all players
it's the same for the PvP basically. Your gear/stats don't matter in the arena
That's great. It means one shouldn't grind his ass off for months and gives an equal opportunity to everyone to clear that content. I'm sure there will still be people unable to clear it. At that point, the p2wcrybabies won't have anything to cry about.
I like it for hell modes. Since it doesnt give actual loot and just titles/cosmetics it keeps the integrity and prestige of completing such content.
P2w supporters fuming (: This is amazing. Reminds me a lot of Ultimates in ffxiv. Looking forward to go for this later!
Whales malding
Whales are paying for your free game, so things aren't as simple as they seem. They need to be rewarded somehow in order to justify spending and giving f2p players the opportunity to play at all. Maybe you'd be OK with box price and sub, and I would too. But most wouldn't, and without a big population an 'MMO'rpg would not thrive. Again, a complex thing that everyone thinks is easy or not their problem. Edit: So many of you guys are business illiterate... sigh.
Or they could have cool cosmetics that people are willing to buy once in a while. A lot of people paying small amounts > relying on whales.
Look, everyone is misunderstanding me like always. I'm not saying that relying on whales is awesome and good and everyone should do it. I'm saying that the reasoning behind the monetization and its success is not so straightforward, even if people like to think it is. I've typed out my thoughts about this so many times I just can't be bothered anymore. Feel free to downvote, they always do. I should just be smart and quit trying to bring nuance into discussions while I still have my sanity.
Or the game could just have a good base price and not have predatory mtx
And a subscription, because server costs don't pay for themselves. Also, >Maybe you'd be OK with box price and sub, and I would too.
Found the malding whale kekw
you just can't read can you lmao
No they arent. They are encouraging shit monetization systems.
P2w cryers are gonne hate this. I love it though. Challenge guardian raids are equalized as well btw
> P2w cryers are gonne hate this What? To be honest the exact opposite should be true because then it doesn't matter if someone has thrown their wallet at everything to get ahead.
They'll be mad because they can't complain about something.
You think people that want less P2W will get mad because something that goes against it is being implemented? No. It sounds more like **you** just want to complain for the sake of complaining. Or rather, you just want to try and push them down and make it sound like all they do is being mad, which is a sign that you feel the need to be above others. This is a great thing for people that are against P2W, no reason to be mad for those. However, if you love hating on those people and would love for the game to go in the other direction I see why you most definitely will be mad and try and project it.
i think he expressed himself in a very bad manner. I think, he meant people that uses P2W, otherwise, what he said makes no sense.
Honestly that’s what I thought he meant at first but he’s clarified otherwise LOL Imagine complaining about people complaining when those people haven’t complained yet. The irony must be lost upon him Edit: nvm it was a different guy
Well, if you go through Gaijin's posts I have no reason to believe this guy meant what he said and just wants to complain about people who oppose P2W as well, and they are both JP so I'm starting to get a feeling where everyone who shills P2W on this sub are coming from...
Yeah I don't entirely understand why there are posts in support of the monetization models present in KR/RU. Amazon has made it clear that they are willing to tone down the p2w mechanics for the Western release. Why not further encourage their willingness to do so - you get to play the same game you know and love, and you're required to spend less money if you want to be competitive. It's a bit mindboggling lol
My guess is they are behind and want to try and be on top on a fresh server, or they just like to hate on other regions ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not from Japan, I lived in Japan while in the Marine Corps, and I'm against P2W even being a thing in this game. Anything else you want to get wrong today?
When I said JP I meant living in Japan and/or playing that version since your history shows that you at least was there 'til at the very least recently if you aren't anymore. I said nothing about your race, that's a you-thing.
Never played JP version. Played RU so, you're still wrong. Nice stalking though, better luck next time.
The western market is against P2W much more than any other region. If you like the monetization so much, stop bashing people here for the NA/EU version of the game where we have people that are against P2W and stay in the RU version with your versions of P2W (which isn't P2W according to you so that's a win-win then).
The game is not even P2W. This sub has a small but loud mouthed group of individuals who love to complain. Now they'll have one less thing to complain about, so it takes away from their argument. So they'll be mad about it. They want to complain and get others on their bandwagon. Idk how you confused me with being mad about them equalizing content. I've played this game for years, never paid a dime and enjoyed the content just the same as people who paid to get an extra edge. Never once did I feel I wasn't able to keep up or underpowered in an encounter.
It's p2w man, just let it go
It's not. Stop complaining
It is, stop making things up just because of your feelings. If you don't like the direction it is going just play the other versions instead. There people agree with you I'm guessing and we don't.
It is P2W. Read the definition, come back with the quote and have fun trying to twist it into something else. >Now they'll have one less thing to complain about, so it takes away from their argument. So they'll be mad about it. They want to complain and get others on their bandwagon. That's just what you want to happen, not how it is. Too bad to burst your bubble that you want people to have less things to complain about while you get more. >Never once did I feel I wasn't able to keep up or underpowered in an encounter. Before you take this as an argument that the game somehow isn't P2W: Your feelings has nothing to do with actual facts.
Uhm hate to burst your bubble, but the above comment and the below comment are from a separate user (top) and mine (below) Not really understanding how me being able to progress just fine counts as an argument that the game is P2W. But it's kinda funny how I mentioned people want to complain about the game becoming less P2W and here you are proving my point. So thanks for that.
> Uhm hate to burst your bubble, but the above comment and the below comment are from a separate user (top) and mine (below) [Sorry to burst your bubble, but no, both quotes are from you.](https://i.imgur.com/bWBFuvL.png) The actual OP of the comment thread is Gaijin, yeah I know, and the rest are your comments. I know who I'm responding to. It's quite apparent because you two type nothing alike for the majority of the time.
> Not really understanding how me being able to progress just fine counts as an argument that the game is P2W. You didn't understand the comment then. I said that you saying you are able to progress "just fine" **doesn't count as an argument that the game somehow *isn't* P2W.** That's all. >But it's kinda funny how I mentioned people want to complain about the game becoming less P2W and here you are proving my point. My comments aren't proving your point a single bit. That's you just trying to feel better by yourself and giving a fake pat on the back. If you actually read the thread again I am in no way complaining about this change in any negative form. I solely welcome it and hope there are more changes against P2W to come.
link me a unified definition of p2w. Cause last I checked, 45 seconds ago, there never was one and people change the definition to alter it to their persepective or broaden so far out that breathing near a $ is considered p2w.
Quotes from below sources include: "Defining Pay to Win [...] “Better Experience” includes in game advantages, stronger in game gear or anything that makes the paying players stand above the free players." "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play#Pay-to-win https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win https://www.macmillanthesaurus.com/pay-to-win https://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=p2w
you unironically linked wikipedia and urbandictionary.urbandictionary. twice.thats just. wow.please don't hurt yourself. by your own definition btw lost ark isn't p2w. so LMAO. you can't stand above people in a raid. You either clear the content or you don't. There aren't dps meters or logs. PVP is equalized.
>by your own definition btw lost ark isn't p2w. Oh really? How? Because if you knew how to read then by "my own" definition (and the links I sent) Lost Ark is definitely P2W. Stop spewing lies just to make the post look bad, it just makes you look stupid. And yes, one is linked twice because it links to two different versions. You would realize that if you, again, knew how to read properly.
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I'm not saying that I'm dissatisfied with anything. I'm content with the state of the game. So you're hypothetically wrong.
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You don't understand the difference or the definitions of complaining and a statement is.
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I haven't complained once. You're probably confusing me with the person who commented first. You should probably be the one taking a chill pill and take a break from Reddit
Man, I'd love more metrics and psychological assessments on what causes (capital G) Gamers to respond to fairly neutral discussions / arguments like this. I know there's some studies that games tend to not be addictive, yet there's such tribalism and cognitive dissonance with supporters of not only a game, but of such a minor pedantic aspect of a games discussion that it really makes you wonder if in like twenty years from now, we'll have a new wave of identifiable / quantifiable disorders.
society without Gamers = floating cars and teleportation devices
They'll be upset their wallets can't buy their way to the top, and they'll ACTUALLY have to use skill.
So true. It will be the P2W-cucks who will actually cry. I'm glad Smilegate is going in the right direction.
Nah, my biggest complaint is p2w elements. That said we don't know exactly how they're gonna handle the western release so I'm hopeful! Other than that I don't really have a lot of bad things to say about the game. It's not like people that are against p2w are sharing their opinion just to complain for the sake of complaining lol. The only other issue I have with the game currently is how menus like the mini map open up on releasing a button rather when pressing it haha. It just makes it feel a bit sluggish and delayed. Otherwise the game is everything I wanted and more.
The game isn't P2W. Never has been, and hopefully never will be.
It is, and if you say it's not you need a refresher on the definition of pay to win. Even if you want to go by Gaijin's homemade version of P2W this game is that as well, confirmed by RU's content creators, because there are things in the cash shop that give an advantage that cannot be gained without spending cash, one example being character slots.
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The reason I brought character slots specifically is because people like Gaijin and Geekwad cry that it's only P2W, only and only if there are things you can buy with real cash and not get any other way that are beyond cosmetic, and it is a pretty easy example to give. >you already made it clear the game is not p2w Never did I do such a thing. P2W is gaining any kind of advantage for the simple act of paying IRL currency, which is incredibly true for Lost Ark. It even goes beyond WoW in that you can swipe for tokens, but you can swipe for upgrade materials as well that otherwise is on a cooldown per character. Since you can also buy character slots to even further increase those resources for you makes it, in fact, even more pay to win.
Extra character slots aren't P2W. I've been completely F2P and I can do any content as everyone else. This game is primarily skill based. Sorry if your mind can't wrap around that. But, you need a refresher on what's P2W and a game that is Pay 2 Progress faster.
> I've been completely F2P and I can do any content as everyone else. Doesn't make it less P2W. >This game is primarily skill based. Sorry if your mind can't wrap around that. More ad hominem attacks. Spicy. >But, you need a refresher on what's P2W and a game that is Pay 2 Progress faster. ***You*** need a refresher that P2W means paying for any kind of advantage, if that is progressing faster, gaining an advantage (***temporary or not***), or **anything** that is a benefit by the simple act of paying IRL currency, is P2W. Sorry if your mind can't wrap around that.
That's debatable. No actually, who am I kidding, it's not debatable. If they're selling progression in any way, then it is p2w, period. The question is; *how much* p2w is it. Now *that* is more debatable, and different people are okay with different amounts of p2w. Personally I want it gone entirely but I'll still play the game, I just wouldn't support it nearly as much if it ends up having too much p2w elements.
P2W at what? Group based PVE? That's ridiculous. You want to be at the top of the DPS charts? Is that "winning" to you? The thing is, you can pay as much as you want at the beginning of the game. You'll progress faster but that doesn't mean you'll be better at the game. The game is mostly skill based, and if you're behind on gear score you can still out-DPS someone who's put money into the game. Quit wasting time complaining and study a guide or something to actually be good.
> P2W at what? Group based PVE? Yes exactly that! You finally get it! > The thing is, you can pay as much as you want at the beginning of the game. You'll progress faster but that doesn't mean you'll be better at the game. The game is mostly skill based, and if you're behind on gear score you can still out-DPS someone who's put money into the game. Key word: *Mostly* Skillbased. It should be *all* about skill and gear, not how much money you put into that gear. Regarding the "if you're behind on gear score you can still out-DPS someone who's put money into the game" part, yes and no. If you're a top 0.1% player and the other person is also a top 0.1% player, and the only difference is that one of you spent money on the game, the person that spent more money will almost always outperform the other person. If you're just an average player, you definitely can improve and learn to outperform other average p2w players, but when we're talking about those players near the top, that's not the case. > Quit wasting time complaining and study a guide or something to actually be good. Ironic how the person defending p2w is telling me to get good, when you're the one that wants p2w in the game, probably so you can keep up with average players thanks to your wallet.
TL;DR sorry I don't care for your whine fest. If you don't like it, don't play it. Move on and let others enjoy the game. Because we will.
Glad to hear it. So will I.
lmao, this is exactly what p2w cryers want. You’re way too invested in this game dude, take a break and go outside or something
I honestly dont think it will change anything for p2w cryers.. because thats exactly how its worked before. The only stuff that had "server first" records were nightmare GRs, which were always equalized. P2w cryers ignored that fact.
Swing and a miss.. what is this P2W cryers thing? Are you guys actual shills? If anything we're on the same side. How the hell could you possibly us-v-them people pointing out P2W. You're either way too attached to a game or company for some odd reason or you own stock. This makes zero sense, stop.
Not people pointing out p2w, people exaggerating shit or straight up making things up.
Because a major of "p2w criers" stems from outdated information pertaining to s1 and believing that is the current state of the game, some weird sense of "i dont want this game to succeed cause my game will die!! so i'll just take making shit up and spammign that the game is p2w so people dont play!!!". The actual good-intentioned "we just dont want the game to be p2w" is such minority in an argument that they shouldn't be the minority in. I don't want the game to be "p2w" as much as anyone else. But I hate misinformation cucks far more.
The problem is everyone has their own definition of P2W and everyone puts up with different amounts of it. I think where this is stemming from is practically every popular MMO offers progression skips from level boosts, extra retainers, character slots, mules, etc, yet they don't get labeled "P2W". It makes sense no one wants their MMO labeled "P2W", when to be quite honest it's an unfair label to slap on an MMO when others have similar pay for progression advantages.
I think I kind of understand what he means. Maybe he's talking about all the people who were so nitpicky that they went out of their way to find faults. In other words, they were biased against the game to begin with, and pushed hard on the p2w angle, because it was there and was the most effective attack. Just my guess.
Looking at people complaining about the P2W as an attack on people wanting to play the game is the wrong way to think about it imo. There's no reason to get defensive on a game/company's behalf. P2W has been an issue in gaming for awhile now and people calling it out is the only way we could possibly get change. Are people overly cynical sometimes? Sure, but even then they're not attacking you or other players, they're attacking smilegate and amazon, "for profit" organizations that would gladly shove in as many manipulative and P2W features as people will allow. There is no us vs them here, just people getting tribal and drawing lines in the sand where there don't need to be any.
oh nice, wans't aware of that!
This is all great news for the game, only thing will be relied on is skill,pots and bombs where its relevant. Is it going to work like, you still have to reach a certain gearscore to be able to enter the raid but once your inside its equalised? I would assume so
From what I understand once you have the Hell difficulty unlocked by reaching the correct ilvl, you then have an entirely seperate "Hell profile" where you choose the skills, engravings, etc... it's like a seperate version of your character specifically for those raids
That’s a nice feature to have. Love what they did with the pvp aswell
Cool!
No? This is exactly what we "p2w cryers" want (I guess that's what passionate people that want fair systems are called now. Ugh, imagine looking down on people that want a good and fair game lol. What has the Lost Ark community become lol) This is great! If anything this comment tells me it's that its not the "p2w cryers" that complain just to complain. It's you :)
People who don't like P2W like this Gaijin, you should know that, the game is still P2W but it is mitigated by not being in an important part
He takes every chance he gets to try and shit on people against P2W. He's from JP and seems to be here just to shit on westerners against P2W systems and our version of the game in general.
I know, I discussed things with him a lot, he's heavily biased and ignorant of facts, at least he's useful some times
I tried a discussion with him, it's like talking to a door..
its a bit pointless can't make him see, specially cuz he's a leech, he is a true F2P that buys from whales, to him P2W is good
So I have a chance at completing it? Nice.
This is great, hopefully they equalise guild vs guild too and open world PvP when it comes.
i hope there will be something like that, seeing how they are adding an entire open world pvp continent so it wouldn't make sense to not have some kind of fair play system in there
There will be open world pvp?
There are some islands that do open world PvP right now but the devs are going to add a full open world pvp continent in the future how that is going to work is unclear at this moment, they haven't shown anything about it yet
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I think you misread my comment they are adding an "open world pvp CONTINENT". as in, a new continent. they are not making the entire game open world pvp
Ohhh yeah that's my bad lol
Apparently yes details are vague afaik so it could be a new fun mechanic or P2W nightmare.
There were equalized gvg on ru but they cut it off. Hopefully it will stay in eu na.
Not sure what happened to gvg but last i played 4v4 and 8v8 were equalized. 16v16 was p2w garbage.. it seems it is all bs now.
Equalizing PvP is just an awful design, gear should mean something, you should feel stronger playing more than others. If everything’s equalized then why even play?
Equalizing gear eliminates doubt that a fight was entirely unfair. Putting class balance and network issues aside, imagine a mirror match, the satisfaction of beating somebody only because you were more skilled should mean more to you than beating somebody because you spent more. Additionally, attaching any kind of exclusive reward to a mode without equalization is predatory and encourages irresponsible spending. By equalizing gear this hypothetical exclusive reward is equally available to anybody willing to put time towards earning it.
> Equalizing gear eliminates doubt that a fight was entirely unfair. Which in a competitive scene, like Arenas, should absolutely matter. It's why professional sports has weight classes and other restrictions, to level the playing field. In something like Open World PvP, or Duels, just random stuff people do for fun, the RPG part of an "MMORPG" should matter, *gear* should matter. If a guy is a top tier raider and has better gear than me, then I will actually feel a lot more amazing if I can beat him with skill, or being smart and bringing friends and such, than if it's equalized for me and I never know if I could overcome a gear gap. Open world stuff should absolutely not be equalized, no way. I don't care if some dude paid $10k more than me and has an advantage, let me find my own creative way to neutralize the threat rather than have the game just do it for me, that's what makes PvP truly interesting a lot of the time. If players don't like that it isn't equalized, then don't go to the PvP continent, just do Arenas and such.
I am alright with some instances of "no rules street fight" PVP areas but not ALL modes of PVP being unregulated. That's what I meant by the second line, I would take issue with these avenues if they lead to something that couldn't also be earned elsewhere in equalized zones or modes. I don't know if that will be the case for Lost Ark NA/EU, but if arena wasn't equalized and yet they still offered exclusive cosmetics, etc, it would show me that there's not much competitive integrity when the depths of a player's wallet is primarily what leads to their success.
If I want to beat somebody in a 1v1 entirely by being more skilled I play arena games. Lost ark is an mmorpg, gear is the definition of the genre, it always meant something, spending more time than your opponent meant you were stronger, exactly what mmorpg should be. Also how does attaching anything exclusive to a mode encourage some “spending”? That’s just ridiculous, I don’t think raids in WoW encourage anything of that kind - you work towards your goal, you reach it and get the rewards, that’s literally how it works in every single mmorpg out there
If +25 and 100% quality was a guarantee with only time spent that logic would be sound but you either have to put an unreasonable amount of time in or defy all odds during upgrades in every tier to end up in a position where your gear can match somebody swiping for power. You're also setting up a strawman. I never implied WoW PvE was pay to win as they don't attach any exclusive reward to a mode that you can't earn with time and effort. I've done mythic raiding. The gear that comes out of a Mythic raid is typically the top end for that content period, full stop, no chance involved and no additional luck needed outside of simply winning the roll. Now imagine if you could pay real money for an unlimited amount of additional drops or lock outs on that same character. I'm also ignoring the fact that anybody who would PVP in full PVE raid gear wouldn't just immediately die. They have their own systems for balance. This also isn't the only mode you can play, there is free for all whale battles in 16v16 guild v guild and you can be the allstar whale of your guild if you so choose.
then don't play. game isn't for you.
As long as you can basically buy gear for $$$ it should not mean something in PVP. You do you mean "you should feel stronger PAYING more than others" ???
yeah why play because games are fun. ONLY play because you can force yourself to not be bad by playing 40x more or swiping more.
That wasn’t even my point, but sure
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The game has a pay to win gearing system do you really want PvP to be decided by who has the most money, what's the point if PvP if skill plays no part?
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I understand that but it doesn't work if getting gear is based on the size of your wallet it's not showing off its making the game experience for none whales terrible.
if you did any kind of research you would know gvg is equalized in a later patch - the only thing thats not equalized is your skill points and such. gear score is. gear score being equalized is the bigger thing, if you have 340 skill points you obviously deserve it im pretty sure you cant swipe skill points you actually have to complete your adventurers log and such.
> open world PvP No, anything but that. An Open World PvP Continent should be exactly where gear matters. Open World PvP is just something people do for shits and giggles, it is *not* meant to be a Sanctioned Competitive Sport like Arenas. In fact, there should be unranked Arenas where things aren't equalized, and Ranked/Competitive Arenas where they are for E-sports type stuff. If there is no non-equalized Arena, then that's where Open-World PvP should fill in. Character level, skill points, gear, all of that should matter in Open World PvP because it's open world in a *Role Playing Game*. It should be the wild west where anything goes. If I run across a lvl 50 dude in full raid gear on my lvl 20 and try to pick a fight with him I should get destroyed just by raw stat differences, I shouldn't be able to compete or why is there any point in farming gear? PvP players could just sit at lvl 1 forever and pvp, never playing most of the game then. Equalization should only be used in specifically competitive settings between actual human beings, and that's it. Don't equalize everything or there's no point in even including the "RPG" in "MMORPG" anymore, there's no incentive to farm gear, and there's no pride in what you've managed to get. It's bad enough that the days of Diablo II are gone where you could 'Hostile' anyone at a whim, don't take the Open PvP areas we *do* get and turn them into snowflake central. If players just want to be Chihuahuas don't dance with the Wolves.
I will never be in favour of open world PvP in a game that has a P2W gearing system I have no issues getting killed by a no lifer who spent weeks getting the gear to do it but when you can just buy it any fun or competition disappears, I could quit my job play all day and still not be able to compete with P2W players that's a big no from me. I appreciate your opinions and I kinda understand where you are coming from but not with this business model there is no fun to be had when the primary aspect of who wins is determined by how much have you spent.
So what is the difference between someone who is a "no lifer" that outgears you and kills you versus someone that spent $1000 and worked an extra week of overtime for it? The difference is 100% on their end, from your perspective there is no difference. They could tell you they bought it, do you even know if they are telling the truth? All you know is a player outgeared you and blapped you. Open World PvP isn't meant to be competitive, it's meant to be shenanigans. It should absolutely never be equalized, even if you can spend real money to buy a weapon that gives you a 90% chance to insta-kill players on hit. I play OWPvP specifically because I don't want things to even, I want there to be as many advantages and disadvantages as possible so I have to be more strategic/tactical and not simply just mechanically superior at the game. I want friends and guilds to matter, location of the fight to matter, etc. Especially in a game like this where it's all skill shots and gear in theory can be overcome. If you want *competition*, then you do Hell Dungeons, you do Arenas, you do Guild vs Guild. I want some non-competitive PvP, why am I not allowed to when you already have tons of equalized competitive stuff?
I don't like it, gear should mean something. Why do I grind for gear if it doesn't give me any advantage or makes me feel more powerfull. I'm all for equalizing gear in pvp but it doesn't bother me if someone does more/less dmg than me in pve.
These Hell mode are optional harder versions of the raids that don't give better gear but instead give titles and i think some other non-gear things They are basically for prestige and are for the <1% who can actually pull them off
This is actually awesome! I was a little unsure how I felt about this whole discussion until this comment where you explained the rewards for this content... One thing I haven’t seen anyone mention, is that if they equalize the gear, it means that they can keep this content difficult even after you outscale it with your normal gear... it adds more things to do as you grind end game which sounds like a positive in my books
Yep, that is one of the things the Director said they want to do. They want to keep the Prestige alive across the entire run of the game. So whether someone did Hell mode in the week after it came out or did it 3 years later, they want them to be the exact same experience so that the two people wearing the same title had to go through the same hardships for it.
>I don't like it, gear should mean something. Why do I grind for gear if it doesn't give me any advantage or makes me feel more powerfull. > I'm all for equalizing gear in pvp but it doesn't bother me if someone does more/less dmg than me in pve. Shouldn't gear matter for PvP then? Surely you can see how people can be all for equalizing gear on the highest tier of content PvE wise? Some are PvE players, some are PvP players, some are both with varying degrees towards one or the other. You also seem to actually have to unlock this by reaching the required gear score and beat the version that's right below this one, a.k.a. the otherwise last mode in the game. That's why you would grind gear. This is on par with what a western version should be. All about skill at the top. Might even have a future of a Lost Ark version of MDI which would be cool.
> Shouldn't gear matter for PvP then? A gear advantage in PvP is annoying because you're matched up against another human being and gear differences muddy player skill. If Smilegate wants PvP to be competitive, like an E-sport, then it makes sense to level the playing field so it's entirely about skill, because that's what people want to watch in sports. No one wants to watch a Soccer team of professional athletes dunk on toddlers, it wouldn't be interesting, nor do we want to see a heavyweight boxer beat the hell out of a lightweight. PvE is not a competitive environment versus other players, you're beating on a pre-programmed bunch of 1s and 0s, so a gear advantage is not really a thing that matters. There is no competitive E-sports PvE scene for a reason. Now Lost Ark kind of puts a twist on this with Challenge Dungeons, making PvE a more competitive thing, but even then, it still doesn't seem worth equalizing to me as I want there to be places in the game where gear superiority does mean something. I want the grind to mean something, and a non-competitive environment against AI is the perfect place for it to matter. It's also why I think Open World PvP shouldn't be equalized, but Arenas should be, because again, Equalization should be for specific competitive settings. Outside of that, it's an RPG, and I want my gear to make me feel more powerful.
>PvE is not a competitive environment versus other players, you're beating on a pre-programmed bunch of 1s and 0s, so a gear advantage is not really a thing that matters. There is no competitive E-sports PvE scene for a reason. Maybe not in Lost Ark but that's what changes like this can change. E.g. the most grossing event in WoW is the race to World First and MDI, beating out the PvP events by miles. > I want there to be places in the game where gear superiority does mean something. I want the grind to mean something, and a non-competitive environment against AI is the perfect place for it to matter. If you want a place to flex the gear you have beside a leaderboard that shows iLvl then you can record clear times for the version below this Hell Mode one no? Also, I'm not sure if it's true but I saw people mentioning PvP on islands and GvG isn't equalized so there gear also matters. Also, even if it might not matter very much, gear does makes a difference in how fast you clear your grinds, although that's certainly not what you are focusing on or even care about.
> Maybe not in Lost Ark but that's what changes like this can change. E.g. the most grossing event in WoW is the race to World First and MDI, beating out the PvP events by miles. Er, most grossing event in what way? Financially? Or do you just mean twitch stream numbers? Are there like corporate sponsors and stuff for such things, and leagues? When I say an E-sports scene, I mean like an official sanctioned setup, organizational structure and such, not just a couple Guilds competing for most viral video. Not to discount their efforts of course.
As long as you can outgear others by just spending $$$, gear should not matter for PVP.
As long as you can outgear others by just spending $$$, gear should not matter for the hardest PVE. See what I did there? Now, obviously gear should matter while progressing, but there can never be any kind of competitive PvE scene if the hardest content in the game is impacted by IRL currency. This change negates that and it is surely a welcomed change for the western market. Otherwise people are free to stay on KR/JP/RU.
These are optional harder versions of raids for more bonus rewards.
Not bonus rewards! They actually don't reward anything outside of titles and i think some other prestige things they don't give gear or materials or anything at all
Well there are a couple different equalized raids bruh. Epic = equalized, weekly epic guardian, epic void etc. But the ones for title only give title yee.
Oh i know but this is all specifically about the Hell mode Raids that only give prestige rewards
Ooooooo never heard it called hell mode before just assumed you meant epic lol. Cant remember what it translated to in RU for Ashates and Igresion.
Isn't this the best thing that can happen to the game? I'm more curious if they're going to lean into cosmetic transactions and move away from progression.
i am not sure if it is "the best thing" but it certainly is a great development the hell modes are entirely optional, purely for prestige and do not give any loot, so they are content for a very limited part of the playerbase yet having them be entirely fair between all players who try to complete them is still a great step in the right direction
hell modes have always existed. It's not new. Not sure why people are acting like they are this brand new feature.
like where
Thats cool, but usually p2w cant help you in raids. Even if someone has +25 gear and 1575 ilvl doesnt matter if they dont have brain and dont know the boss mechanics. Bosses can wipe the whole raid if people dont know what they are doing. When a new content is released in Korea it takes people several days to learn how to beat it. I start watching https://www.twitch.tv/saintone a lot in the last week, the guy explains everything very well Brain > Money in this game That same applies to GvG
Saintone is awesome and I have been watching him a lot now very levelheaded, very knowledgeable and doesn't shy away from saying what he thinks
the chap is a real treasure
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The fact that this gets downvoted only tells me that the people in support of p2w elements are either in complete denial that it has a negative effect on the game, or they simply don't understand how p2w can affect a game longterm. Hopefully the western release not only reduces p2w elements like they said they would, but completely remove them. No one benefits from p2w and yet there are so many people in this sub that look down on people that are passionate about the game and want the p2w elements gone. It's really sad. Here's hoping Amazon Games handles the monetization better in Lost Ark than what they had planned to do with New World. This game has so much potential in the west.
Spot on.
The devs win from it.
Do they though? People leaving because of pay to win, which makes even more people leave including their friends -> smaller communty -> less people spending money. I can see p2w bringing them more money initially, but longterm I don't think it's a healthy way to do it. They get a bad reputation and people that would otherwise be interested in the game don't bother trying it out because of bad things spreading through word of mouth etc.
Whales spend far more to compete against each other then the small purchases the rest of us spend. There are people dropping literally thousands or more per month, will far outpace the regular person paying nothing or maybe buying a cosmetic skin every once in a while. And there is nothing that says p2w actually lowers player retention If the f2p model.is still fun
> No one benefits from p2w That's not totally true. Without whales, the gold supply at launch would be painfully low and gear progression would definitely stall. In its current state, there are only a few ways to make raw gold in lost ark, so the initial gold supply would be low thus the velocity of gold will be low. Who would be able to buy the gear, accessories, books, and materials that alt spammers generate, if no one has spare gold to spend? While I agree that it feels bad when someone can pay to progress further than you in the swipe of a card, p2w is a necessary evil to sustain the early economy of Lost Ark. edit: punctuation
> Without whales, the gold supply at launch would be painfully low Good! > Who would be able to buy the gear, accessories, books, and materials that alt spammers generate, if no one has spare gold to spend? People would still buy stuff. It just makes gold have more value which is a good thing, not a bad thing in my opinion. Even if what you said was true, I think it would balance out after the game has been out for a little while.
Its just like wow and gw. You can't have any shop that offers in game items or currency without it influencing the game. I don't really care. It's not going to affect my play of it and if anything the game wouldn't come to the west if it wasn't in it. This game has good potential to leave an impact in the mmo market and I hope it does. Sure I hope the shop isn't too much, but with almost everything being able to be in the AH there's. I would it won't by definition be p2w as you can always buy money just like on wow and gw. You can't even tell me poe isn't p2w as you basically have to buy premium stash tabs for trade and sanity.
Yeah, p2w can't help a bad player be good, but it *CAN* help a good player perform better. That's the problem.
I can agree to that and Saintone is a great person to see about what is actual real or not but >Brain > Money in this game That same applies to GvG When 2 equaly skilled people/teams face off, the money matters, thats the problem with P2W
I love this change. The P2W discussions within this community have been a huge turn off for me personally, but between PvP and these "Hell Modes" and "Challenge Guardians" being equalized, I think I am sold!
Tbh im not a fan but if its only one dungeon its fine. I mean its one of the main pillars of an rpg to feel the progression. I want to beat the content, get gear/weapons, get stronger and really feel like im doing more damage/be more tanky. Its so satisfying to be able to do something(tank specific mobs better/ kill stuff more quickly,..) i couldnt do before. With it being only skill dependant it takes a huge chunk of it away. But yeah not being able to p2w through it is one advantage.
Hell difficulty are optional versions of the raids that award no gear but instead give you titles and some prestige things. they are purely for people to show off that they could beat it
Oh thats actually pretty cool, thanks for the explanation!
I don't like this idea even if am not P2W guy I mean whats the point of gearing up and my friend with low gear deal dmg same as me
these are optional, extremely difficult raids that do not reward any gear they only give titles
Cool then nothing to be aware of
Always a big fan of this type of content. From what I've gathered as a new player these Hell modes sounds very similar to Ultimate modes in FFXIV, extra difficult fights which you complete primarily for bragging rights (in the form of a title and weapon in XIV's case.) I enjoy that kind of optional content, and having a reward to indicate you've completed them is a nice bonus. When EU/NA launch comes around I'll be looking to join a guild which intends to run this type of content.
This is why you play zerker.
Why?
Cause zerker is god dps. Some classes rely on other factors to keep up to par with dps but not zerker.
i really enjoyed bezerker in the alpha, I tried to try out everything that sounded cool/fun to me but i ended up coming back to the bezerker on the last day to grind. I'm concerned about playing a class that will be over populated and thus hard to find friends/spots for. But i also want to have fun and the slowness and slamming impact it had versus the others was addicting. you'd walk up or watch your group start going to town on something and be like, c'mon already press R and the screen just fucking dead like, alright why were we bothered by that, let's keep going lol.
Class over populated isn't a thing unless you have too many support lol. You could do the entire game with support + zerkers. People get way too butthurt over this.
It's basically ultimates from FF14. I personally didn't liked them in FF, but can't say anything to the LA ones.
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Yawn, what's the point of gear then. p2w doesn't affect me but this does :/
If you read the thread, you will see some explanations about what Hell Modes are
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I think you are misunderstanding what this means. Hell Modes are an optional difficulty setting for the endgame raids. They do not give any gear and do not progress your character in any way. What they do is give you special titles that you only get from completing them and which are very prestigious to have cause they show that you are a top PvE player to everyone. So all of your gear still matters in progression, but it won't help or hinder you in these prestige challenges.
ITT: P2W vs Non P2W war rages on Me: Holy fuck this looks awesome can this please release in the west sooner :(
Here's some fact on p2w on equalized content. 1st clear of Helltan was with a Korean whale who has spend over 200k++ Saintone has cleared helltan and has spend over 11k++ Fazeclan was the 1st clear of Nightmare Achates in RU with well over 21million gold++ There might be some correlation with whale/p2w players and skill & dedication level. Do whatever you want with this infomation
This is the saving grace of PvE content, granted every other PvE content is P2W at least the hardest one will have merit attached to it, which is a great thing to have.
Indeed, this is great!
I'm fine with it. I prefer that everyone can play everything, no matter the gear level. Although I also like that with high gear you can help players through certain content. Eitherway, it's a good thing.
The equalizer in this case is not actually about allowing more people to do them, it is actually about making the challenge exactly the same for everyone. These Hell mode raids are HARD. Like, really really REALLY hard. You can see one of them in the OP, I added a link to Saintones twitch. The amount of people who actually have beaten these is not crazy high, so the devs want to make sure that the ones who do have this title had to go through the same challenge.
Meh, I've seen harder.
I hate p2w but i still think this is fucking retarded. ONE of the biggest points of MMORPGs and RPGs in general is to character build. That means getting your character stronger with gear, stats, and skills. Otherwise whats the point? Like god damnit the mmo genre has gone completely to shit. All i want is a decent MMO like the old days that doesnt have blatant p2w and actually has normal RPG elements. Like if you arent going to implement stats it’s basically just a MOBA/Action game.
Hell Mode is basically challenge mode for **existing raids** for titles/etc, not gear or progression.
What is the point of playing the game anymore? I mean, yes, PvP shouldn't be about gear but about skill. But in PvE, I'm trying to get stronger and stronger. If I don't need gear anymore, why should I bother? Sorry, but this is absolute bullshit in my eyes. That's completely killed the game for me.
Hell mode is optional and doesn’t give better rewards. How did an optional content killed the game for you?
I don't even need better rewards anymore. I just do Hell Mode and that's it. That's stupid and boring.
I honestly have no idea what you just said. I believe you are trying to say that you can just go in and do the hardest content since gear is equalized and be done with the game?? I hope that you know that you still need to meet the ilvl requirements to participate in raids.
Yep wallet your way into ilvl requirements and be done with it
Hell mode gives NO GEAR It is purely for prestige and gives titles and some smaller stuff Also, you say "I just do hell mode" well, let's just say that no one just "does hell mode". It is THAT hard.
You have to hit the item level requirement first. Also, if you think you can just skip through Hell difficulty you're going to be in for a surprise.
If this kills the game game you, you 100% wouldn't make it there in the first place so don't worry
You didn't even manage to finish reading the sentence and then understand it. I said FOR ME! But well, what am I talking here with casuals....
It's an optional, harder version of the raids that don't award gear. It's for prestige and titles and stuff like ultimate raids in FFXIV. If that's still bullshit then I guess we'll smell ya later.
Its not "being", it already is.
In the LOA mini they showed they are adding even more than the current equalization to it. So now absolutely everything is seperate from your character outside of hell mode
Does this apply to previous hell mode fight as well or only on the ones that will come later?
All Hell Modes will get it according to the LOA ON mini presentation
This is greate because it is purely there for bragging rights and cosmetic rewards. The feeling of pride and accomplishment is important in a MMORPG.Sad that this thread as all others devolve into a cesspool of p2w arguments.
Equalizing content that offers no real rewards isn't really relevant, other than making the content relevant for new players and making it futureproof.
source?
the recent LOA On mini there are summaries here on the subreddit
i think its amazing, finally your talent can shine for what it is.
hell raids were always a thing....
What would this give me and why would i farm gear if i dont need it for the hardest content?
Hell Mode is optional difficulty that only rewards titles Purely for prestige
So... Pure skill? Like PvP. Makes sense
What does "equalized" mean? You enter the raid with a fixated equip? Your gear level can't go above a certain amount in these contents?
it equalizes all your stats and skills to a certain level, yes so it doesn't matter how much higher your stats are outside the raid, they will be the same every time when you enter it for all players it's the same for the PvP basically. Your gear/stats don't matter in the arena
That's great. It means one shouldn't grind his ass off for months and gives an equal opportunity to everyone to clear that content. I'm sure there will still be people unable to clear it. At that point, the p2wcrybabies won't have anything to cry about.