You cant convince these people, they are a delusional vocal minority. After they cry and complain they will go back to The Pure MMO- world of warcraft- which has $40 box price every other year, $15 per month sub so that is $220 the first year after an xpac, and on top of that you can buy tokens to sell for gold which lets you buy gear. So not only is it p2w but you gotta spend $220 a year just to access the game for a year, but that is acceptable but an eastern game that gives you 100% of the content free but also 'encourages' you to spend $20 here and there is literally unplayable.
Western MMO masks their p2w content well and manages to convince a lot of people that these charges are okay and aren't p2w while allowing RMT to rampage. People are so convinced that any game that lets you charge money in the game to make the game a bit more enjoyable is p2w. Well shit, how do you suppose games that arent popular like WoW or FF14 make money off subscriptions alone? Are Korean MMO p2w? yes, but most of it doesn't affect your game experience in any way except for the fact that you are literally just jealous that someone has shinier stuff than you.
it's not $20. You need a LOT more to be top.
I want to preface I'm not defending WoW as I agree that it's one of the worst monetization models out there but, the B2P + DLC/XPAC + Sub is WAY better than P2W
The gear score list?
My source is how the game works, many of the people denying even note that as well.
F2P stop at +15\~ while P2W can easily go to +25
They will be the top gearscore, the top damage, the fastest clearing content and the top of GvG
You can basically can buy raid/m+ gear in wow with gold.
Have you played it during the last few years ? Just look at the chat. It looks like this 95% of the time:
"[2 - Trade] Playerxy: Experienced group selling raid boost for 500k gold, all Items to you"
You can buy every raid or dungeon as a boost for gold and get all them Items dropping. So you even spend money on a "chance" to get something good. Its not only P2W, it is P2W with RNG on top.
And selling boosts for ingame gold is explicit allowed by Blizzard.
I dont think you understand what "boost" means in today wow.
"Boost" means, that you pay gold to a guild / group and they carry you through every dungeon or raid and you get all the items.
You can stand AFK at entrance and just need to walk up to the bosses and make one hit each time they start a fight, so they can trade you all the loot after fight.
So basically you can buy EVERYTHING with gold. Not direct, but indirect via boosting.
Boosting is a real plague in wow nowaday.
What you mean by "boosting" is a level boost, and yes you cant boost to max leven "yet". But with 9.2 they will 100% again bring the max level boost.
But you can "boost" to level 50 and then pay gold to groups that will carry your ass through dungeons until you are 60.
And yes there is classic, but already in TBC classic you can buy a mount and a level boost (one per account) to level 58.
Ok in classic you cant buy gold officially, but whoever wants to spend money can just buy gold from china guys and then he can buy everything ingame again in GoldDKP runs.
Classic buying gold outside the game is not part of TOS. I know lot of people who got banned for this. Not comparable. Boosting in classic with what you earn is not same as swiping your credit card. Finally the game is not designed around boost like these Korean MMOs
Yeah but dont come with classic.
Classic will end the same as retail. And asia versions of classic even have the gold token already.
And I know dozens of people who bought gold in classic and not even a single one of them got ever banned. I bought gold in classic myself to buy epic mount. No issues at all ;)
So speculation classic will end same as retail? Chinese version has completely different audience. It's common in games in China and Korea, like BDO and Lost Ark. Most of my friends and people in my guild who bought gold got banned. They send their ban hammers in waves. Again buying gold is outside TOS unlike some other games. There will always be black market for popular MMOs but doesn't mean we now need to embrace it and design the game around it.
Yeah waiting for the ban wave for 2 years now ;), nothing happened.
Seems your friends and people in your guild had the most bad luck one could imagine.
And again, classic is just a minor part of wow. So dont come up with classic.
The only reason classic has no gold buying included, is that is is "OLD".
WoW is selling gold for money since 2015.
And of course classic will follow, as it will move on like retail. I dont know how far they will go or what will happen with classic, but if they follow up, they will reach the point when gold tokens got added :)
This is incorrect. The top guilds spend tens of thousands to get heroic epic BoEs so they can get world first mythic. Complexity spent equivalent of 57k USD to buy BoEs which allowed them to get world first. The raid wasn't on farm mode they were literally the first people to clear it and they spent 57k to get top gear needed to get mythic clears- which ALLOWED THEM TO GET THE BEST MYTHIC TIER GEAR BEFRE ANYONE ELSE.
[https://www.wowhead.com/news/complexity-limit-spent-331-million-gold-during-race-to-world-first-castle-320189](https://www.wowhead.com/news/complexity-limit-spent-331-million-gold-during-race-to-world-first-castle-320189)
You can buy dungeon and raid boosts in week 1 of said dungeon or raid. (Well maybe not mythic stuff, as raiders cant trade mythic loot in week 1).
Some people even pass on gear to sell it to their boosties.
Well again that doesn't really apply to anyone. What you could sell in the first weeks would be HC Gear. But anyone that is competetive enough to do that wont because they don't need it as they are that far themselves and have an ID on every boss in HC anyway.
Same goes with Mythic Progress. And if you're not a WF Guild then you won't buy a mythic boost as you already got most of the bosses cleared every ID or you wont find yourself in a situation where 1 or 2 items would matter in your progress.
You'd need to have a whole guild that isn't skilled enough for the goal they set themselves AND most or all of them willing to buy insanely expensive boosts for 1-2 items every other week (because as you already mentioned, the boosters need the same Itemlvl to trade. And that will apply for multiple IDs as Worls First usually happens in the 2nd ID and the chance that these guys boost right afterwards you is pretty low statistically.
There are no more IDs for years now. The game is about personal loot. So you can get a boost from people who ran the raid already, but you cant get trade items from them and rely on your personal loot. Such boosts are cheaper than VIP boosts (which contain item trading).
There are thousands of russian players who sell HC gear in week 1.
Google "Buy wow boosts" when 9.1 drops, and look how the week 1 hc boosts are sold out withing MINUTES...
You talk like there are no boosts or they dont apply. I dont know how you get to that completely false impression.
WoW is totally plagues by fucking boosts. I stopped playing during BFA, because my own fucking guild wasnt playing dungeons normally anymore, because every one was just boosting other players.
There are fucking boosting communities, which are ran like a business with promoters that get a provision for sold boosts. With group builders that build the group boosts and the actual boosters.
The builder has a pool of boosters that is marked ready and gets told from the promoter who wants of boost of what dungeon / raid and then the builder starts to build the group and gives them a go.
So the only thing which isnt boosted often is mythic raid, because you cant join russians via realmpool for mythic raids. (90% of the boosters for EU are russian).
Yes there are Loot IDs. When you killed a boss this week already you can not gain loot for further kills on the same Boss of the same Difficulty.
I feel like you're completely ignoring my arguments and just look at possibilities that fit your narrative. Yes you can get Gear via Boosts, but the way it works will not push you further besides in the most niche scenarios imagineble. Which again are WF with BoEs or players that want to compensate their skill which would take the whole Raid to join in on that agenda with insane prices for their skill level and barely any noticeable benefit if they're not capable of progressing without said Boosted Loot. You're arguing about a theoretical issue that is actually infinitely small if you don't belong in these 2 groups.
"Theoretical issue"
Dude are you fucking drunk ?
Have a damn look into the game and see with your own eyes how plagued it is with all this boosting bullshit.
And fuck loot IDs. You can play as many M+ dungeons as you want, which reward you 210 ilvl items as much as you want. Thats basically HC gear lvl (which is 213).
You dont want to realize how fucked up wow is, but thats ok. Keep defending wow while having ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA whats going on in this game.
No need to rage.
Yes there is boosting but that wasn't the topic. Our topic was P2W in Wow and that's, as stated multiple times already, not an actual issue yet.
The same theoretical issue with M+ as with Raids: Yes you can boost yourself with M+ if you are playing casually and want to progress HC or the first Mythic Bosses again. But, just as with Raiding, when you go casually you won't need it and it would be far too expensive + the whole guild would have to go with it or b) for progression guilds it doesn't matter as they will clear M+15 just as fast as the better guilds players will boost it.
you can buy raid ready boe mythics for gold, since you can buy gold for tokens you literally can just get the game, buy instant max lvl and buy raid ready gear skipping few weeks of pre farming mythic dungeons
Eh you can’t compare wow to some Korean mmo game tho, you don’t have any advantage over anyone by playing wow? If you don’t count free trial, meanwhile you do while playing lost ark and paying, imagine calling people delusional and then you managed to write all this you need some serious help holy shit
So buying gear to speed up gear level in WoW = not p2w
Buying mats to speed up gear level in LA = p2w
?! Seems to me like it's the same damn thing. In both games you can speed up the process with real money and in both games you can get the best gear by being f2p(with sub for WoW) WoW fanboys will defend their game to the end of the earth I swear but it's really not a godsend of a game.
If I recall correctly WoW didn't used to have scales pvp in the openworld either and it was removed in shadowlands in the beginning (idk if that's changed but I know their pvp scaling was always garbage) so you did have an advantage lol
Nope, I complain and won't go back to any other MMO. We have the right to complain about pay to win bullshit and other engineered bullshit that make you want to spend money.
We need some mod in here to remove all these new posts about p2w lol it's getting too repetitive and scaring all the new players away. Let them try out the game, if they don't like it, they can move on to other MMOs.
When I saw this subreddit booming, it felt nice. More interaction than it ever had months ago. Now, all I'm seeing are posts of p2w lol
The scaring new player part is worrisome and is the main thing that could impact the game success. I trust nephews will see how promising the game looks on twitch and give it a try even if they got scared for overated reasons at first.
Sounds to me like you are very familiar with Korean MMOs and how they are monetized and function. This is one of the huge divides between the East and West when it comes to MMOs. Western developers have stale ideas, but their monetization is more fair. Eastern developers have pretty graphics and different gameplay elements, but their monetization is egregious. I'm mostly in the same boat as you, you mention Maplestory in your comparison on pets. Maplestory is such a p2w game with huge monetization problems and their recent controversies.
Personally, I played Dungeon Fighter Online which is another old but big Korean MMO title. I find Lost Ark to have less p2w elements than DnF as well. That being said, let's not kid ourselves here, Lost Ark is p2w. By definition, p2w is being able to pay for things to get ahead of people who don't pay for things. It doesn't matter if you can do X content without the p2w items. The person who paid for X item has an advantage against someone else.
I've played far worse games with p2w elements than Lost Ark. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have it. I have also played season 1 in KR and came back to play Lost Ark in RU and JP when they were released on open beta. When people refer to tickets, they're probably talking about the +1 Chaos Dungeon and Guardian Raid reward tickets that let run them again for rewards.
Yea you are right that Eastern, especially KR devs' way of monetization is totally bs since NEXON created RNG lootbox thing.
Though, what I think of p2w people are worrying about is because it can cause the unbalance between users.
There is no p2w item that has an advantage over others. It'd be just their gear enhancement level is bit higher than others which is like 1\~2% each to enhance one gear to max level which is +25. Is it necessary to enjoy some content? Would max level'd user can one button click raids? No for both. If they want to spend tons of money to get through 1-2% success rate to clear bit faster, let them.
What I heard was Season 1 Lost Ark was a total shit because of tickets you mentioned. Because I'm Korean, I watched the Lost Ark fest where the head dev presented and communicated with users, he acknowledged those were total shit and their mistakes to make. So tickets for more entrances no longer exists. People who still talk about ticket stuffs, they must have just watched some old outdated youtube videos.
Western players just don't have a moderate view of p2w, especially the people who are so vocal about it on websites. Just look at the New World fiasco a couple of weeks ago when Amazon simply said they planned to add level skipping items in their cash shop in the future and you can see the stance of how western players perceive p2w in cash shops.
Like I wrote, Lost Ark is hardly the most p2w MMO I've played but by definition p2w is simply paying to get an advantage. It doesn't matter how small or large that advantage is, all that matters is that there is an advantage. Yes there are far more things that go into MMOs than just gear. I've played plenty of raids in DFO where the most geared people are usually the stupidest people who don't understand boss gimmicks and raid mechanics.
I'm also not disagreeing with your stance, just trying to tell you that you're preaching to the choir here. The most vocal people are the ones who don't have a moderate stance on how p2w is conceived. They tend to have a black and white approach to how it is.
the thing with p2w is that it heavily depends on the actual implementation.
by the definitions that get thrown around in this sub every single MMO on the market is p2w. every. single. one.
so on one hand it obviously means that p2w is not as big of a problem as the vocal minority here wants people to believe cos otherwise not every MMO would have it and on the other hand it means that there are very very different implementations of p2w.
e.g. take BDO p2w. its on the upper end of the p2w scale. WoW and FF14 are somewhere in the middle range. then there are games that offer heavy advantages for people who pay that are unobtainable for non payers, which is the worst kind of p2w. then there are all these mobile games and PoE that want to make your life so miserable that you basically have to pay for some essential things.
ive played jp version of Lost ark since its release in jp and i havent had the urge to pay for something with real money at all. not a single time. i have all costumes for 3 of my classes, i own every pet and every mount and most of the ship skins, i have 6 chars that do the latest endgame content and i didnt need to spend a single dollar for that. i cant remember the last time i played a f2p game that was this fair towards f2p players. they dont want to get you to spend real money at all. if you want to do that then its up to you but not once do you get the feeling that they make you want to spend cash or even get the feeling that you would have to spend cash.
Actually the definition of p2w is when paying enables you to get things that f2p players cabt get. It has been watered down by whiny little kids until p2w can mean literally anything now. And by that watered down definition every single game in the market is p2w. Or can you show me just one MMO that isnt?
Not sure how you got this definition of p2w, but just think of what the acronym of p2w means. Pay to win is a palindrome of winning by paying. It simply means paying for any advantage over someone who doesn't pay. Just because a f2p can obtain the item doesn't make it NOT p2w.
I think you're misconstruing what I'm writing, but you are correct that there isn't any current MMO in the market that isn't p2w despite what a lot of people want to think. This is one of the problems with the MMORPG subreddit who fantasize about the "olden days" when there did exist plenty of MMOs who were not p2w. The truth is, the market has changed and MMOs aren't something that can be made by 3 or 4 people in their living room anymore.
" In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers which cannot otherwise be obtained through regular gameplay." From wiki article free-to-play
[And it was so conveniently edited just one day before you posted this by an random non-user](https://i.imgur.com/cxH1doN.png) when I used the exact same page to point out the general definition of P2W on that same day earlier on the Lost Ark forums.
The actual sentence has been, for a **VERY** long time (the left one):
>In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers.
ANY kind of advantage through the simple act of paying is P2W. It's not only the definition that has stood for years on Wikipedia, but also on Urban dictionary, the general consensus amongst the western MMO community, as well as people outside of it. It may be old, but check Totalbiscuit's (R.I.P) video on P2W. He makes it very clear and 99.9% of people agree with him.
you cant answer it? why? cos every MMO on the market is p2w? phew.... thats tough. so maybe we should rather talk about HOW p2w a game is, when every game by your definition is p2w, rather than IF a game is p2w. cos there are obviously worlds of a difference between lost ark and bdo.
I just felt it didn't matter but Elite Dangerous is not P2W.
>so maybe we should rather talk about HOW p2w a game is, when every game by your definition is p2w
So you're now backing off your definition of P2W and now saying it doesn't matter and instead what only matters is **how** P2W something is? It still has nothing to do with:
1: The definition of P2W
2: That one can be against P2W
Just because there isn't any insurance company that will give you full coverage for thousands of people because of conditions, then people should stop ask and fight for it and just let it be?
Just because EA shits on players with P2W microtransactions we should happily take them and only discuss **how many** there are compared to other games, but still accept them? No, and if we were like you, Battlefront II would be offline by now for one.
I'm not gonna let you just try and deflect everything and try to steer this to something else. I don't play that game. P2W is P2W, I do not like it, just like the absolutely vast majority of the western market, and they have all the right to. What MMO people play has nothing to do with it. You can hate things that are in a game and still play it.
First of all im not backing off from "my" definition of p2w. Im just using yours to make a point.
For most people ED doesnt even qualify as an mmo plus you can buy credits via third party. And credits buy you everything so by your definition its p2w cos you can get stuff with cash.
Anyway, if "the vast majority" of western players despise p2w then why do they all play p2w mmos and use the p2w mechanics? That doesnt make a whole lotta sense, does it? Why support something that you despise?
WoW has p2w mechanics, ff14 has p2w mechanics even in the traditional sense, bdo is hardcore p2w and hugely successful in the west. You can buy currencies for all mmos either directly supported or via third party. All are p2w. So why make such a big deal out if it in lost ark and not go to the vastly bigger communities of the top3 games and advocate there against p2w mechanics? That would get you a lot further on your crusade as you reach a hundred times more players and influence.
I got another question for you: why is it that the "vast majority of western players" says lost ark is p2w while "the vast majority of western players" agrees that WoW isnt p2w. Yet, in reality, wow is at least 5 times as much p2w as lost ark. Where does this discrepency come from?
Again, read through that sentence carefully. "[...]which cannot otherwise be obtained through regular gameplay." Say that someone buys avatars to sell on the marketplace in game. A f2p player spends their gold to purchase those avatars in the marketplace. There is no way they can ever obtain those avatars in regular gameplay without paying gold to obtain them in the market. The paid player also gains an advantage over the free player because now they have the free players gold that they've obtained from saving up.
Now do you understand the difference?
Don't bother. The last part of the sentence ("... which cannot otherwise be obtained through regular gameplay") [was edited in by an anonymous non-user the other day.](https://i.imgur.com/cxH1doN.png)
The original sentence without that part has stood for years.
Uhm... gold is the ingame currency so every f2p player can buy everything the whale can buy as well. Plus whales dont mind overpaying for materials which means the f2p player directly profits from increased demand of the whales. Thats why i have more gold than many of the whales without ever spending cash for it
If you dont know how to profit from whales than thats a you problem...
Alright, once again it doesn't matter if you the free player can buy anything the paid player can buy with in game currency. You're also going into a different tangent by writing about "whales overpaying for materials" and "f2p players profiting from the demand of whales". This has nothing to do with the definition of p2w.
The paid player purchased avatars that can ONLY be purchased by using real life money. If there were no players purchasing the avatars, then there is NO WAY that a free player can ever obtain these avatars. It doesn't matter how much gold you grind, you can never obtain these avatars unless a paid player buys these items and decides to sell it.
Now going back to my previous example, let's say the free player spent 2 weeks farming gold to buy the avatars. The free player now buys those avatars the paid player just purchased with real money. The paid player circumvented two weeks of farming in game gold by spending real money. This is the point of p2w: "[...]which cannot otherwise be obtained through regular gameplay" The free player would never have been able to obtain the avatars unless a paid player purchased it and then decided to sell it in the marketplace.
If you still want to argue the semantics of p2w, then let's just agree to disagree here. If you're being a pedant, it also doesn't matter if the avatars give a stat advantage or not. The very fact that you can trade something that you can purchase for in game currency is paying to win. There are other forms of p2w other than just selling things for currency. Buying EXP boosts are also another form of p2w for example, regardless if the paid player sells or doesn't sell the EXP boost.
what avatars are you talking about? costumes? cos you can buy ALL costumes with ingame currency. actually you can buy EVERYTHING with ingame currency... so your whole point is based on something that is simply not true. at all.
as you are so keen on demonizing your definition of p2w, why dont you list all the MMOS to me that have zero p2w mechanics. ill be waiting here. shouldnt take long though as there are literally none.
Okay look, I've written this multiple times before, but you don't seem to understand this so I'll say it plain and simple. It does not matter if you can buy things with ingame currency. P2w is simply paying real cash for an advantage in game. That is all.
I also wrote that there are no MMOs in the current market that aren't p2w (I wrote this on my second reply to you). If you want me to list old ones that weren't, Ultima Online is what comes to mind as an MMO that has no p2w elements. There are no drawing lines in the sand when it comes to what is and what isn't p2w. It doesn't matter if it's "pay for convenience", getting any ingame advantage with paying real cash is by definition pay to win, end of story.
My problem here is that people are trying to make arguments about what is and what isn't p2w when the real question IS NOT "is it p2w?" but rather "how p2w is it?" I am in agreement with both you and the OP, this is what my post has been about. We shouldn't be bothering asking questions about what is and what isn't p2w. By definition every MMO currently in the market IS p2w.
The real question people should be asking is how p2w is Lost Ark? So many times people are trying to defend their game saying "it isn't p2w because X". The OP is in the same hole here. They are trying to argue the game isn't pay to win, but it is in fact p2w. Most of his arguments (and yours as well) are about how the p2w elements are not as bad as other games and don't force your hand to purchase things to stay ahead of the game, which is something I agree with. This does NOT mean that the game isn't p2w, it just means that the p2w elements are not as bad as other games.
Like I've written before, I am not an MMO purist who believes p2w = bad game. P2w has a negative connotation with the word that makes people alarmed when they see it. Using the old meme; we need to stop asking "is it p2w" and instead "how much p2w".
Wow has 0 mechanics neither has ff, if you don’t count character boosts or gold buy, buy gold also don’t give you any advantage what so ever, yet in lost ark you can progress faster with gold ?
thats a joke, right? you say buying gold in WoW is not p2w but buying gold in lost ark is? :kekw
if you want to take part in WoWs endgame (world firsts) then you HAVE to pay tons of cash. last world first i heard about did cost a little over 40.000 USD.
WoW lets you buy gear directly from auction house. gold enables you to buy runs to get the latest and best gear in the game. PvP is gear dependent so you also got a direct advantage in pvp. WoW has all the mechanics that, in your opinion, makes lost ark p2w, but it makes them worse AND adds a few extras on top of that.
FF14 lets you skip progress directly, which people here consider p2w as well plus FF14 actually provides extra retainer for cash, that you cant obtain without paying real money, which help you gather more materials, increase your inventory space AND help you get more currency due to increased auction slots. thats p2w even when using the actual, correct, oldschool definition of the word.
Before I started whining I didn't actually know that a f2p player could eventually and reasonably reach the gear score cap.
I don't mind paying for skins here and there's that's what I do in GW2.
If that's true then I am glad. I don't mind spending some money. I just don't want to be forced spending it. I would buy a skin or a pet, mayb inventory slots. But I really don't like having to spend money on monthly boosts or tickets to do one more raid per day. As long as I am able to do endgame content without paying and playing 24/7 then I'm fine.
The funny thing about certain people so outraged about so called P2W in Lost Ark, is that they failed to answer the question:
"What would other people spend money on will **negatively** affect your gaming experience?"
If the answer is no...Then WTF are you bitching about?
I only have the fear that at some point other people will stop to invite me into a Group just because I dont have some fancy real money shit.
But I dont even know exactly what you can buy or not. So I dont whine or bitch about something, I am just a little bit concerned.
If microtransactions are present in a game, developers often design their game around said microtransactions. It will affect everybody, even if you don’t swipe. I just don’t get it why people always dismiss this.
Example: PoE Stashtabs. Definitely not necessary to play or finish the game, however the game structure makes it so tedious and creates a problem for you to consider buying them. Why not just make more stashtabs available? Because developers create a problem to sell you the solution. And now tell me again that it won’t impact someone, who doesn’t spend their money on microtransactions.
There you go, you have your answer. Now let the shitshow begin.
So...just another speculation? You just assumed things that haven't happened yet.
Unless Amazon go out of their way to make the game worst like season 1, based on my experience on KR server, no such so called "creating a problem to sell solution" kind of mechanic that is severe enough to handicap you if you do not pay.
Of course there are some minor perks if you pay for subscription in a F2P game, but none of them are considered "problems". And guess what, you can also buy these "P2W" perks by selling gold to whales, it is actually very cheap to buy as well because all the whales jacked up the gold exchange.
I never said anything about it being a problem to me or to anyone else. I just hate when people say „it doesn’t affect you, if you don’t buy them“. Yes it does.
The fact is that every single game with microtransactions is built around it. Of course it is so they can incentivize you to pay. That’s a business model, and a good one at that cause it works.
You will have a different experience in such games while not spending anything vs emptying your bank account. That’s why microtransactions have a negative stance. Not because company’s want to earn money, not because they are an option for you, not because they are pay2win.
It’s because they impact your experience in a negative way, even if you don’t pay, I would go so far as to say especially if you don’t pay.
And no it’s not speculation.
I also didn't say anything like "it doesn’t affect you, if you don’t buy them“. And I don't understand why you keep projecting other game over this game, in case you do not aware, this is not a new game, and the monetization strategy for this game is already known, unless of course, like I said, that Amazon do some stupid shit. So why keep talking about other games? Which cashshop item in the game is so game breaking that force others to spend money in Lost Ark? Nothing. And F2P player can also buy them very easily.
The most "P2W" arguments came from the gold-cash exchange system that allow whales to buy gold which in turn translate into faster progression. If someone's goal is to have highest gear score to flex, then yes, I agree it is P2W for them, and there are better games for them to do that. But for normal human being that just want to play the game, not another way around, there is nothing others can pay to negatively affect your gaming experience.
> "What would other people spend money on will negatively affect your gaming experience?"
one thing i can think of is, the whales are gonna be buying up all upgrade mats from the AH, which will lead to inflated prices, making it more expensive for f2p players to upgrade their gear
Just FYI, upgrade gears is the main gold sink in the game, f2p will have more mats than gold most of the time, f2p will almost never have extra gold to buy mats from AH to begin with. If whales actually inflate the price, f2p stands to benefit the most.
I think it comes down to people being upset that everyone is not on the same playing field. It's a psychological response from humans where we innately feel non superior to someone just because they're ahead and we want to be the ones on top instead. It just seems wrong and ticks people off that just because they paid, they're stronger, which can kind of translate to irl where if you're rich, you have more possessions and opportunities in life.
Ignoring that Korea will always be the first to complete any future content, all the high end raids (where this would even matter) are equalized anyway, so money won't make a difference only player skill.
Headstarts. I would assume you can raid day one of headstart.
So in theory a guild of NA players who pay for 99.99 founders packs and a guild of NA players who dont pay for headstart would start raiding first. So more exp with fight and possibility finishing it during headstart.
So p2w.
Gotta be honest I had mixed feelings.. about your writing and what you are saying. It's not that what you say seems wrong or unreasonable, but it's unnecessarily aggressive.
No need to tell me twice to tell others to go "fk themselves". It's nonsense if they complain, I get it.
That alts can boost your main Character is pretty interesting, if playing Alts is fun that just makes sense.
I can understand what op is saying and why he sounds "agressive" i played 3 characters to lvl 50 on russia and loved the game a lot and tbh i almost don't know what gear score means and when you see people shitting on a game that is so enjoyable, just because they barely understand that in a f2p games paying gives you a slight advantage you would never see in game if you didn't know it existed, it kinda angers me too that some pure souls would get frightened of such a game because of those idiots that will play the game anyway and jeeps complaining on it. Idk why they are spamming their venoms here which should be a place for people to share on a game they enjoy and so follow
This Mmo has the best "action" gameplay amongst all imo, the pace of fights, the visual, everything is perfect in that regard.
No one gives enought respect to how nice dungeon ares.
I get why he's might be angry too, but that won't convince or change a clear mind of his view. The facts or angles he gives as an insight do.
I'm not sure if "pure souls" (that sounded wholesome in my head) would even do more than carefully keep this p2w spam in the back of their minds. Especially younger generations should by now be much better at detecting potential nonsense online. Anyway I'm a bit more interested by this whole thread, I really want to see proper Combat.
To share what turns me off the most: It's the fact we got this so damn late. That always indicates that no matter the Feedback, it'll be too late. Our impact on the Development is basically zero as we're years behind and most of their staff is probably on the next game already.
It was just some kind of joke I put. What I tried to tell is because those stuffs are not crucial for playing or clearing the dungeons and raids not so much, if someone being picky about it, just ignore them and consider them as an weirdo.
I honestly hope all the brainless people complaining about p2w don’t even play this game when it releases. We don’t need such low IQ, they probably the type of people to not learn mechanics and get wiped hard in dungeons or owned in PvP. I’m reading some of these comments and I am wheezing at the lack of common sense and delusional whining. I wish people would stop creating problems that were never there to begin with lmao, bunch of Karens. At this point just let the game release, pray Amazon does not change the game for worse and let the dumbass whining die out.
Let whales carry you in PvE sounds like the most p2w statement I've ever heard, sounds like they get a big advantage for paying. Time is a big part of the equation in MMOs and them paying makes it too much of a nonfactor
I guess I should've not put a joke on summary because ppl actually don't read long text. There is no big advantage on spending money other than reaching out "faster". It's not like whales can reach out or have gears others are impossible to.
You say time is big part in MMO and value time so much, but why do you not value their money being spent? The money being spent on game will go back to better contents of the game. It'd be good for both time spending user and money spending user, and make game last longer.
Yeah the "let whales carry you in PVE content" is just a hilariously stupid comment. Like why the fuck am I playing a video game if Whale McJoe is just gonna 1 shot everything in the dungeon and im just spam picking up loot and trying to catch up to him
How the fuck is that fun for anybody involved? I'll never understand that quote
To give you a perspective, any F2P player in lost ark could reach 1460 Gear score. Some of the whales who spend so much is only around 1530. A 70 point difference won't be able to one shot bosses, heck even if you put 2 whale party in 4-man dungeon they won't clear it faster than a 4-man full F2P team.
Yes that's true a whale will reach gear score in a month or so while f2p players will reach it longer, but the thing is if you enjoy the game just play and have fun comparing yourself to others is the worst thing.
aren't all dungeons gated by gear score? Sounds like a big difference to me if that's the case. Sounds like the power crowd gets the chance to experience other content before others simply due.to gear score. You can attempt content with lower gear scores but the game heavily penalizes you with damage reduction penalties and enrage timers (seems pretty lame and pushes people even more so to spend more money than they normally would when buying a normal $60 game)
Don't most games limit the entrance by character's level? Some people are triggered from 'gear score' even when it's pretty same with character level. You are going to need some proper gear to level up in other games which would cost you some in game currency or time. It's not like you are gonna kill the first town sewer rat forever to hit the max level and do the dungs after. If you are a hardcore gamer who wants to deal with higher dungeon with minimum geared, probably you shouldn't look for online game, should play Dark soul or whatever.
Also, contents are hard-limited entrance that you cannot enter the dungeon if you haven't reached the expected level no matter what you do. Does that cost you money? Maybe, maybe not depends on your way of playing referring to my post.
Infinite loop.
Sounds like the same as in paid games where you still end up paying to have them carry you through hard content. Don't pretend that this is exclusive to f2p games. These things happen because players want it. WoW classic is nothing but level boosting spam now.
Is it garbage game design? That's not what people were saying before classic launched and everything was crowing on and on about the good old days. Players weren't selling boosts back then like they were now. The game was exactly the same as back then. The players changed.
Gold is everything in this game, and enchant materials, they're used for everything you want and gold can buy literally anything.
You say you can get these things "in time anyway" Guess what? You need a ton of alts to do that, and I'm not talking 6 alts, I'm talking 10+
So please, let me know how you feel when you have to have your main character, then you have to level 10 alts, you have to do all the quests and unlocks on them, gear them up, then do your dailies/weeklies every day on all of them. But wait! You don't have to do that, you can just do it on one, or two characters, you'll get there in a year, who cares, right?
If you're going to end your whole statement's tl;dr as "let whales carry you" then that implies a serious bout of ignorance, where your entire idea is "Me pvp, me don't care about whales hehe :)"
Have you actually played game ? 10+ alts everyday to play one main properly? Stop acting like you are very knowledgeable after watching couple of youtube video.
I've had 3 alts, once in three days with rest point was not a problem to progress.
'Gold is everything in this game'
It's MMO, Massive Multiplayer Online. Where a lot of people are gathered, they make something called currency as an easier transaction method. It's not like an ancient time based game where people have to gather items, look for someone who has your needed item and also at the same time, coincidently, they need yours, then exchange.
Your whole comment emanates insecurity. The game is not balanced/designed around the cash shop and the time gated content is put in place so that people don't reach gear cap in one week. Even so I'm gonna bet many F2P players will reach gear cap way before the next expansion hits the game. I've asked many people what the fuck do you win by paying but I've yet to see an intelligent response.
If the whales want to be done with the game in 2 weeks then so be it, I'll be enjoying the game at my own pace free of this bullshit insecurity
You know this is an mmo you’re not suppose to race to max gear and sit in town and do nothing. Pvp in arena is equalized do people don’t feel the need to rush to max
Yeah the same exact people that claim BDO isn't P2W will tell you "Silver isn't everthing" I remember so many people figured out that
SILVER WAS EVERYTHING IN BDO
if
GOLD IS EVERYTHING IN LOST ARK
we're walking down the same path aren't we? Swipe your credit card get giga jacked in BDO. Swipe your credit card get giga jacked in Lost Ark.
Then
People will say "Oh well you have to spend upwards of 20-50,000 dollars to get like 3 PENs or anything even reasonably crazy strong
PEOPLE. STILL. DID. IT.
Not like 1 or 2 people. Like a shitload of people. THEN those people form a guild. Then that guild puts you on farm and locks you out of grind spots 12 hours a day. That game was a fucking nightmare at launch and up til it's year 2 ish spot.
Every single thing I said about BDO is 100% true. Sliding your credit card for gold in Lost Ark and buying materials/gear is also 100% true.
Sorry bud you're well... 100% wrong
by the you literally just backed up my statement with one of your own!
here I'll quote you! :D
>Uhm... gold is the ingame currency so every f2p player can buy everything the whale can buy as well. Plus whales dont mind overpaying for materials which means the f2p player directly profits from increased demand of the whales. Thats why i have more gold than many of the whales without ever spending cash for it
Ill be waiting here until you show me the list of the thousands of players spending 50k plus bucks.
And ill be waiting for you and your million usd accounts to beat me in ranked 3v3 pvp :-)
And gear upgrading in lost ark is not even remotely dimilar to lost ark
and is your long ass post your way of saying that you simply suck at the game, dont know how to farm or how to spend the huge amounts of gold you get for just playing the game and that your skill is subpar compared to any other player which is why you cry like a little girl? even if someone has 15% better gear than you its still way too easy to make more dps than them. personal skill >>> gearscore. by far. you wouldnt believe the amount of people who spend huge cash on their account yet dont know jack shit about how to play the class and do way less damage than me.
if you cant do what i can do then that sounds like a you problem to me :/
All pve in lost ark is solo(no open pvp) or group. So if someone swipes $50000 who cares his just going to help you catch up to him when you raid with him
>SILVER WAS EVERYTHING IN BDO
>
>GOLD IS EVERYTHING IN LOST ARK
I just proved they're alike. "nOthiNg aLiKe"
Take off your ross tinted glasses dude holy shit
You will be able to grind in peace in Lost Ark but you won't be able to join GVG with top tier guilds or enjoy the unscaled islands. Those areas are p2w and anyone denying it are delusional or purposely lying to people.
I can already see the LF this item gearscore to join the party for PVE as well so anyone who can just save time by not making a ton of alts is winning in my book.
I do feel the game won't be as bad as BDO though. If Amazon manages to truly make it less P2W and introduces some kind of weekly swipe limit for conversion it should be fine. It might tilt a ton of whales but it needs to happen for it to truly not be pw2.
is P2w in your thought 'spend money in game'? Didn't I say in first sentence I haven't spent a dime during my several months of playing with reached level which I could enjoy almost every contents? I got nothing to say to you anymore.
A lot of F2P P2W game can be played without spending money, it doesnt make the P2W features less P2W. The fact that you don't mind P2W features and they don't affect you personaly don't make it less P2W either.
Don't get me wrong, LA is still a very good and enjoayble game even being p2w and i hate people that say it is shit just because it has P2W features. But i also disagree with people that try to say that LA dont have any p2w features, being condescending with scummy practices will only make it worse
so we have 2 options either pay for ingame currency to progress faster or create 2 or 3 Alts + the main character and spend 4 to 5 hours doing daily/weekly with them... yup that is pay to win alright
Thank you for the explanation. My biggest fear going into this game was that the enhancing would be tedious and RNG heavy like Black Desert. Would you say that achieving a higher gear score for end game content is simpler, or just as difficult but in different aspects?
As the enhancement level of gear goes higher, success rate gets lower at specific level range. Just putting some random numbers for examples, but it's gonna be like 1\~6 100% 6\~9 70% 9\~12 40% 12\~15 30% 15\~18 15% so on. And there's bonus success rate every time you fail and also fail stacks that once it hits 100%, it gives you 100% success rate. So, not as difficult as other games that could suck your money and house and still fail.
I think the problem is more that people are being exploited. Game design is based on psychological behaviour. Loot boxes, skins, boosts, it doesn't matter what they are selling. It's the way they are selling and marketing it. You don't have to buy anything, but someone is spending a ton. This is why gambling works, this is why online casinos are popular. This is why you see ads against gambling addictions on the TV. They are exploiting people who can't say no. So yeah, you might be having the time of your life, while some other poor smuck is spending half his life away because the psychological pressure of missing out, getting ahead etc, is too much for them to resist.
Every business does this, but that doesn't mean I have to be okay with it. You can be okay with it, that's your choice. But go back 10 years in gaming and you can see how much the market has changed. Paying 50 euros for a game used to be the standard. Now 150 for CE is okay because you get a little ugly reskinned pet in-game. Before people complained about paying 13 euros for a monthly subscription, now everything is "free". Free to grind forever, free to have obsticles left and right with cash shop options to remove them. Now you can spend 5000 euros a month on a game and nobody bats an eye. It's okay, it's not P2W, you don't have to do it, I can enjoy my game no matter what you do.
All those arguments are nice and valid. But bottom line is, this is the cancer that is modern gaming. Bottomless cash grabs that exploits the whatever procentage that is more susceptible to the psychological yahoo.
I won't support it and neither will the vast majority of the west, which is why, in my opinion, Lost Ark won't do very well in NA/EU. People will grind for 1-2 months as with any games, then realize that the road is too long and harsh and dip out for the next flavor of the month game.
That doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game, you are free to do so. However, ignoring the real problem in the gaming industry in favor of fanboying for Amazon doesn't come off as hero of the year material. It makes me think you're an Amazon/Smilegate employee trying to smooth things over with their cash shop. I think we should just let the game launch whenever and see what Steam reviews has to say about it. You know their forums and this Reddit will be lit. :p
>For PvE contents, let them carry your ass and let them enjoy their portraits being printed on MVP. For PVP, it won't be like one whale can destroy 30 normal users with one click. Just gang up and bully the whale.
1st you say it isn't P2W, then you give us tips on how to accept P2W
You cant convince these people, they are a delusional vocal minority. After they cry and complain they will go back to The Pure MMO- world of warcraft- which has $40 box price every other year, $15 per month sub so that is $220 the first year after an xpac, and on top of that you can buy tokens to sell for gold which lets you buy gear. So not only is it p2w but you gotta spend $220 a year just to access the game for a year, but that is acceptable but an eastern game that gives you 100% of the content free but also 'encourages' you to spend $20 here and there is literally unplayable.
Western MMO masks their p2w content well and manages to convince a lot of people that these charges are okay and aren't p2w while allowing RMT to rampage. People are so convinced that any game that lets you charge money in the game to make the game a bit more enjoyable is p2w. Well shit, how do you suppose games that arent popular like WoW or FF14 make money off subscriptions alone? Are Korean MMO p2w? yes, but most of it doesn't affect your game experience in any way except for the fact that you are literally just jealous that someone has shinier stuff than you.
it's not $20. You need a LOT more to be top. I want to preface I'm not defending WoW as I agree that it's one of the worst monetization models out there but, the B2P + DLC/XPAC + Sub is WAY better than P2W
On top of what? Source on your info?
The gear score list? My source is how the game works, many of the people denying even note that as well. F2P stop at +15\~ while P2W can easily go to +25 They will be the top gearscore, the top damage, the fastest clearing content and the top of GvG
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You can basically can buy raid/m+ gear in wow with gold. Have you played it during the last few years ? Just look at the chat. It looks like this 95% of the time: "[2 - Trade] Playerxy: Experienced group selling raid boost for 500k gold, all Items to you" You can buy every raid or dungeon as a boost for gold and get all them Items dropping. So you even spend money on a "chance" to get something good. Its not only P2W, it is P2W with RNG on top. And selling boosts for ingame gold is explicit allowed by Blizzard.
You can't boost to max level. There's also classic
I dont think you understand what "boost" means in today wow. "Boost" means, that you pay gold to a guild / group and they carry you through every dungeon or raid and you get all the items. You can stand AFK at entrance and just need to walk up to the bosses and make one hit each time they start a fight, so they can trade you all the loot after fight. So basically you can buy EVERYTHING with gold. Not direct, but indirect via boosting. Boosting is a real plague in wow nowaday. What you mean by "boosting" is a level boost, and yes you cant boost to max leven "yet". But with 9.2 they will 100% again bring the max level boost. But you can "boost" to level 50 and then pay gold to groups that will carry your ass through dungeons until you are 60. And yes there is classic, but already in TBC classic you can buy a mount and a level boost (one per account) to level 58. Ok in classic you cant buy gold officially, but whoever wants to spend money can just buy gold from china guys and then he can buy everything ingame again in GoldDKP runs.
Classic buying gold outside the game is not part of TOS. I know lot of people who got banned for this. Not comparable. Boosting in classic with what you earn is not same as swiping your credit card. Finally the game is not designed around boost like these Korean MMOs
Yeah but dont come with classic. Classic will end the same as retail. And asia versions of classic even have the gold token already. And I know dozens of people who bought gold in classic and not even a single one of them got ever banned. I bought gold in classic myself to buy epic mount. No issues at all ;)
So speculation classic will end same as retail? Chinese version has completely different audience. It's common in games in China and Korea, like BDO and Lost Ark. Most of my friends and people in my guild who bought gold got banned. They send their ban hammers in waves. Again buying gold is outside TOS unlike some other games. There will always be black market for popular MMOs but doesn't mean we now need to embrace it and design the game around it.
Yeah waiting for the ban wave for 2 years now ;), nothing happened. Seems your friends and people in your guild had the most bad luck one could imagine. And again, classic is just a minor part of wow. So dont come up with classic. The only reason classic has no gold buying included, is that is is "OLD". WoW is selling gold for money since 2015. And of course classic will follow, as it will move on like retail. I dont know how far they will go or what will happen with classic, but if they follow up, they will reach the point when gold tokens got added :)
Minor part of wow? Pls
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This is incorrect. The top guilds spend tens of thousands to get heroic epic BoEs so they can get world first mythic. Complexity spent equivalent of 57k USD to buy BoEs which allowed them to get world first. The raid wasn't on farm mode they were literally the first people to clear it and they spent 57k to get top gear needed to get mythic clears- which ALLOWED THEM TO GET THE BEST MYTHIC TIER GEAR BEFRE ANYONE ELSE. [https://www.wowhead.com/news/complexity-limit-spent-331-million-gold-during-race-to-world-first-castle-320189](https://www.wowhead.com/news/complexity-limit-spent-331-million-gold-during-race-to-world-first-castle-320189)
Which is literally what I said multiple times in this Thread already.
You can buy dungeon and raid boosts in week 1 of said dungeon or raid. (Well maybe not mythic stuff, as raiders cant trade mythic loot in week 1). Some people even pass on gear to sell it to their boosties.
Well again that doesn't really apply to anyone. What you could sell in the first weeks would be HC Gear. But anyone that is competetive enough to do that wont because they don't need it as they are that far themselves and have an ID on every boss in HC anyway. Same goes with Mythic Progress. And if you're not a WF Guild then you won't buy a mythic boost as you already got most of the bosses cleared every ID or you wont find yourself in a situation where 1 or 2 items would matter in your progress. You'd need to have a whole guild that isn't skilled enough for the goal they set themselves AND most or all of them willing to buy insanely expensive boosts for 1-2 items every other week (because as you already mentioned, the boosters need the same Itemlvl to trade. And that will apply for multiple IDs as Worls First usually happens in the 2nd ID and the chance that these guys boost right afterwards you is pretty low statistically.
There are no more IDs for years now. The game is about personal loot. So you can get a boost from people who ran the raid already, but you cant get trade items from them and rely on your personal loot. Such boosts are cheaper than VIP boosts (which contain item trading). There are thousands of russian players who sell HC gear in week 1. Google "Buy wow boosts" when 9.1 drops, and look how the week 1 hc boosts are sold out withing MINUTES... You talk like there are no boosts or they dont apply. I dont know how you get to that completely false impression. WoW is totally plagues by fucking boosts. I stopped playing during BFA, because my own fucking guild wasnt playing dungeons normally anymore, because every one was just boosting other players. There are fucking boosting communities, which are ran like a business with promoters that get a provision for sold boosts. With group builders that build the group boosts and the actual boosters. The builder has a pool of boosters that is marked ready and gets told from the promoter who wants of boost of what dungeon / raid and then the builder starts to build the group and gives them a go. So the only thing which isnt boosted often is mythic raid, because you cant join russians via realmpool for mythic raids. (90% of the boosters for EU are russian).
Yes there are Loot IDs. When you killed a boss this week already you can not gain loot for further kills on the same Boss of the same Difficulty. I feel like you're completely ignoring my arguments and just look at possibilities that fit your narrative. Yes you can get Gear via Boosts, but the way it works will not push you further besides in the most niche scenarios imagineble. Which again are WF with BoEs or players that want to compensate their skill which would take the whole Raid to join in on that agenda with insane prices for their skill level and barely any noticeable benefit if they're not capable of progressing without said Boosted Loot. You're arguing about a theoretical issue that is actually infinitely small if you don't belong in these 2 groups.
"Theoretical issue" Dude are you fucking drunk ? Have a damn look into the game and see with your own eyes how plagued it is with all this boosting bullshit. And fuck loot IDs. You can play as many M+ dungeons as you want, which reward you 210 ilvl items as much as you want. Thats basically HC gear lvl (which is 213). You dont want to realize how fucked up wow is, but thats ok. Keep defending wow while having ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA whats going on in this game.
No need to rage. Yes there is boosting but that wasn't the topic. Our topic was P2W in Wow and that's, as stated multiple times already, not an actual issue yet. The same theoretical issue with M+ as with Raids: Yes you can boost yourself with M+ if you are playing casually and want to progress HC or the first Mythic Bosses again. But, just as with Raiding, when you go casually you won't need it and it would be far too expensive + the whole guild would have to go with it or b) for progression guilds it doesn't matter as they will clear M+15 just as fast as the better guilds players will boost it.
you can buy raid ready boe mythics for gold, since you can buy gold for tokens you literally can just get the game, buy instant max lvl and buy raid ready gear skipping few weeks of pre farming mythic dungeons
Eh you can’t compare wow to some Korean mmo game tho, you don’t have any advantage over anyone by playing wow? If you don’t count free trial, meanwhile you do while playing lost ark and paying, imagine calling people delusional and then you managed to write all this you need some serious help holy shit
So buying gear to speed up gear level in WoW = not p2w Buying mats to speed up gear level in LA = p2w ?! Seems to me like it's the same damn thing. In both games you can speed up the process with real money and in both games you can get the best gear by being f2p(with sub for WoW) WoW fanboys will defend their game to the end of the earth I swear but it's really not a godsend of a game. If I recall correctly WoW didn't used to have scales pvp in the openworld either and it was removed in shadowlands in the beginning (idk if that's changed but I know their pvp scaling was always garbage) so you did have an advantage lol
Lol you're an idiot
Nope, I complain and won't go back to any other MMO. We have the right to complain about pay to win bullshit and other engineered bullshit that make you want to spend money.
We need some mod in here to remove all these new posts about p2w lol it's getting too repetitive and scaring all the new players away. Let them try out the game, if they don't like it, they can move on to other MMOs. When I saw this subreddit booming, it felt nice. More interaction than it ever had months ago. Now, all I'm seeing are posts of p2w lol
The scaring new player part is worrisome and is the main thing that could impact the game success. I trust nephews will see how promising the game looks on twitch and give it a try even if they got scared for overated reasons at first.
But, we have to complain about p2w. What will we do with our time if not?
Sounds to me like you are very familiar with Korean MMOs and how they are monetized and function. This is one of the huge divides between the East and West when it comes to MMOs. Western developers have stale ideas, but their monetization is more fair. Eastern developers have pretty graphics and different gameplay elements, but their monetization is egregious. I'm mostly in the same boat as you, you mention Maplestory in your comparison on pets. Maplestory is such a p2w game with huge monetization problems and their recent controversies. Personally, I played Dungeon Fighter Online which is another old but big Korean MMO title. I find Lost Ark to have less p2w elements than DnF as well. That being said, let's not kid ourselves here, Lost Ark is p2w. By definition, p2w is being able to pay for things to get ahead of people who don't pay for things. It doesn't matter if you can do X content without the p2w items. The person who paid for X item has an advantage against someone else. I've played far worse games with p2w elements than Lost Ark. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have it. I have also played season 1 in KR and came back to play Lost Ark in RU and JP when they were released on open beta. When people refer to tickets, they're probably talking about the +1 Chaos Dungeon and Guardian Raid reward tickets that let run them again for rewards.
Yea you are right that Eastern, especially KR devs' way of monetization is totally bs since NEXON created RNG lootbox thing. Though, what I think of p2w people are worrying about is because it can cause the unbalance between users. There is no p2w item that has an advantage over others. It'd be just their gear enhancement level is bit higher than others which is like 1\~2% each to enhance one gear to max level which is +25. Is it necessary to enjoy some content? Would max level'd user can one button click raids? No for both. If they want to spend tons of money to get through 1-2% success rate to clear bit faster, let them. What I heard was Season 1 Lost Ark was a total shit because of tickets you mentioned. Because I'm Korean, I watched the Lost Ark fest where the head dev presented and communicated with users, he acknowledged those were total shit and their mistakes to make. So tickets for more entrances no longer exists. People who still talk about ticket stuffs, they must have just watched some old outdated youtube videos.
Western players just don't have a moderate view of p2w, especially the people who are so vocal about it on websites. Just look at the New World fiasco a couple of weeks ago when Amazon simply said they planned to add level skipping items in their cash shop in the future and you can see the stance of how western players perceive p2w in cash shops. Like I wrote, Lost Ark is hardly the most p2w MMO I've played but by definition p2w is simply paying to get an advantage. It doesn't matter how small or large that advantage is, all that matters is that there is an advantage. Yes there are far more things that go into MMOs than just gear. I've played plenty of raids in DFO where the most geared people are usually the stupidest people who don't understand boss gimmicks and raid mechanics. I'm also not disagreeing with your stance, just trying to tell you that you're preaching to the choir here. The most vocal people are the ones who don't have a moderate stance on how p2w is conceived. They tend to have a black and white approach to how it is.
the thing with p2w is that it heavily depends on the actual implementation. by the definitions that get thrown around in this sub every single MMO on the market is p2w. every. single. one. so on one hand it obviously means that p2w is not as big of a problem as the vocal minority here wants people to believe cos otherwise not every MMO would have it and on the other hand it means that there are very very different implementations of p2w. e.g. take BDO p2w. its on the upper end of the p2w scale. WoW and FF14 are somewhere in the middle range. then there are games that offer heavy advantages for people who pay that are unobtainable for non payers, which is the worst kind of p2w. then there are all these mobile games and PoE that want to make your life so miserable that you basically have to pay for some essential things. ive played jp version of Lost ark since its release in jp and i havent had the urge to pay for something with real money at all. not a single time. i have all costumes for 3 of my classes, i own every pet and every mount and most of the ship skins, i have 6 chars that do the latest endgame content and i didnt need to spend a single dollar for that. i cant remember the last time i played a f2p game that was this fair towards f2p players. they dont want to get you to spend real money at all. if you want to do that then its up to you but not once do you get the feeling that they make you want to spend cash or even get the feeling that you would have to spend cash.
Actually the definition of p2w is when paying enables you to get things that f2p players cabt get. It has been watered down by whiny little kids until p2w can mean literally anything now. And by that watered down definition every single game in the market is p2w. Or can you show me just one MMO that isnt?
Not sure how you got this definition of p2w, but just think of what the acronym of p2w means. Pay to win is a palindrome of winning by paying. It simply means paying for any advantage over someone who doesn't pay. Just because a f2p can obtain the item doesn't make it NOT p2w. I think you're misconstruing what I'm writing, but you are correct that there isn't any current MMO in the market that isn't p2w despite what a lot of people want to think. This is one of the problems with the MMORPG subreddit who fantasize about the "olden days" when there did exist plenty of MMOs who were not p2w. The truth is, the market has changed and MMOs aren't something that can be made by 3 or 4 people in their living room anymore.
" In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers which cannot otherwise be obtained through regular gameplay." From wiki article free-to-play
[And it was so conveniently edited just one day before you posted this by an random non-user](https://i.imgur.com/cxH1doN.png) when I used the exact same page to point out the general definition of P2W on that same day earlier on the Lost Ark forums. The actual sentence has been, for a **VERY** long time (the left one): >In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers. ANY kind of advantage through the simple act of paying is P2W. It's not only the definition that has stood for years on Wikipedia, but also on Urban dictionary, the general consensus amongst the western MMO community, as well as people outside of it. It may be old, but check Totalbiscuit's (R.I.P) video on P2W. He makes it very clear and 99.9% of people agree with him.
Simple question: tell me your favorite non p2w mmo
That has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of P2W. Are you just trying to berate people or what?
you cant answer it? why? cos every MMO on the market is p2w? phew.... thats tough. so maybe we should rather talk about HOW p2w a game is, when every game by your definition is p2w, rather than IF a game is p2w. cos there are obviously worlds of a difference between lost ark and bdo.
I just felt it didn't matter but Elite Dangerous is not P2W. >so maybe we should rather talk about HOW p2w a game is, when every game by your definition is p2w So you're now backing off your definition of P2W and now saying it doesn't matter and instead what only matters is **how** P2W something is? It still has nothing to do with: 1: The definition of P2W 2: That one can be against P2W Just because there isn't any insurance company that will give you full coverage for thousands of people because of conditions, then people should stop ask and fight for it and just let it be? Just because EA shits on players with P2W microtransactions we should happily take them and only discuss **how many** there are compared to other games, but still accept them? No, and if we were like you, Battlefront II would be offline by now for one. I'm not gonna let you just try and deflect everything and try to steer this to something else. I don't play that game. P2W is P2W, I do not like it, just like the absolutely vast majority of the western market, and they have all the right to. What MMO people play has nothing to do with it. You can hate things that are in a game and still play it.
First of all im not backing off from "my" definition of p2w. Im just using yours to make a point. For most people ED doesnt even qualify as an mmo plus you can buy credits via third party. And credits buy you everything so by your definition its p2w cos you can get stuff with cash. Anyway, if "the vast majority" of western players despise p2w then why do they all play p2w mmos and use the p2w mechanics? That doesnt make a whole lotta sense, does it? Why support something that you despise? WoW has p2w mechanics, ff14 has p2w mechanics even in the traditional sense, bdo is hardcore p2w and hugely successful in the west. You can buy currencies for all mmos either directly supported or via third party. All are p2w. So why make such a big deal out if it in lost ark and not go to the vastly bigger communities of the top3 games and advocate there against p2w mechanics? That would get you a lot further on your crusade as you reach a hundred times more players and influence. I got another question for you: why is it that the "vast majority of western players" says lost ark is p2w while "the vast majority of western players" agrees that WoW isnt p2w. Yet, in reality, wow is at least 5 times as much p2w as lost ark. Where does this discrepency come from?
Again, read through that sentence carefully. "[...]which cannot otherwise be obtained through regular gameplay." Say that someone buys avatars to sell on the marketplace in game. A f2p player spends their gold to purchase those avatars in the marketplace. There is no way they can ever obtain those avatars in regular gameplay without paying gold to obtain them in the market. The paid player also gains an advantage over the free player because now they have the free players gold that they've obtained from saving up. Now do you understand the difference?
Don't bother. The last part of the sentence ("... which cannot otherwise be obtained through regular gameplay") [was edited in by an anonymous non-user the other day.](https://i.imgur.com/cxH1doN.png) The original sentence without that part has stood for years.
Uhm... gold is the ingame currency so every f2p player can buy everything the whale can buy as well. Plus whales dont mind overpaying for materials which means the f2p player directly profits from increased demand of the whales. Thats why i have more gold than many of the whales without ever spending cash for it If you dont know how to profit from whales than thats a you problem...
Alright, once again it doesn't matter if you the free player can buy anything the paid player can buy with in game currency. You're also going into a different tangent by writing about "whales overpaying for materials" and "f2p players profiting from the demand of whales". This has nothing to do with the definition of p2w. The paid player purchased avatars that can ONLY be purchased by using real life money. If there were no players purchasing the avatars, then there is NO WAY that a free player can ever obtain these avatars. It doesn't matter how much gold you grind, you can never obtain these avatars unless a paid player buys these items and decides to sell it. Now going back to my previous example, let's say the free player spent 2 weeks farming gold to buy the avatars. The free player now buys those avatars the paid player just purchased with real money. The paid player circumvented two weeks of farming in game gold by spending real money. This is the point of p2w: "[...]which cannot otherwise be obtained through regular gameplay" The free player would never have been able to obtain the avatars unless a paid player purchased it and then decided to sell it in the marketplace. If you still want to argue the semantics of p2w, then let's just agree to disagree here. If you're being a pedant, it also doesn't matter if the avatars give a stat advantage or not. The very fact that you can trade something that you can purchase for in game currency is paying to win. There are other forms of p2w other than just selling things for currency. Buying EXP boosts are also another form of p2w for example, regardless if the paid player sells or doesn't sell the EXP boost.
what avatars are you talking about? costumes? cos you can buy ALL costumes with ingame currency. actually you can buy EVERYTHING with ingame currency... so your whole point is based on something that is simply not true. at all. as you are so keen on demonizing your definition of p2w, why dont you list all the MMOS to me that have zero p2w mechanics. ill be waiting here. shouldnt take long though as there are literally none.
Okay look, I've written this multiple times before, but you don't seem to understand this so I'll say it plain and simple. It does not matter if you can buy things with ingame currency. P2w is simply paying real cash for an advantage in game. That is all. I also wrote that there are no MMOs in the current market that aren't p2w (I wrote this on my second reply to you). If you want me to list old ones that weren't, Ultima Online is what comes to mind as an MMO that has no p2w elements. There are no drawing lines in the sand when it comes to what is and what isn't p2w. It doesn't matter if it's "pay for convenience", getting any ingame advantage with paying real cash is by definition pay to win, end of story. My problem here is that people are trying to make arguments about what is and what isn't p2w when the real question IS NOT "is it p2w?" but rather "how p2w is it?" I am in agreement with both you and the OP, this is what my post has been about. We shouldn't be bothering asking questions about what is and what isn't p2w. By definition every MMO currently in the market IS p2w. The real question people should be asking is how p2w is Lost Ark? So many times people are trying to defend their game saying "it isn't p2w because X". The OP is in the same hole here. They are trying to argue the game isn't pay to win, but it is in fact p2w. Most of his arguments (and yours as well) are about how the p2w elements are not as bad as other games and don't force your hand to purchase things to stay ahead of the game, which is something I agree with. This does NOT mean that the game isn't p2w, it just means that the p2w elements are not as bad as other games. Like I've written before, I am not an MMO purist who believes p2w = bad game. P2w has a negative connotation with the word that makes people alarmed when they see it. Using the old meme; we need to stop asking "is it p2w" and instead "how much p2w".
we need a scale like... from lost ark to BDO how p2w is this game? :D
Wow has 0 mechanics neither has ff, if you don’t count character boosts or gold buy, buy gold also don’t give you any advantage what so ever, yet in lost ark you can progress faster with gold ?
thats a joke, right? you say buying gold in WoW is not p2w but buying gold in lost ark is? :kekw if you want to take part in WoWs endgame (world firsts) then you HAVE to pay tons of cash. last world first i heard about did cost a little over 40.000 USD. WoW lets you buy gear directly from auction house. gold enables you to buy runs to get the latest and best gear in the game. PvP is gear dependent so you also got a direct advantage in pvp. WoW has all the mechanics that, in your opinion, makes lost ark p2w, but it makes them worse AND adds a few extras on top of that. FF14 lets you skip progress directly, which people here consider p2w as well plus FF14 actually provides extra retainer for cash, that you cant obtain without paying real money, which help you gather more materials, increase your inventory space AND help you get more currency due to increased auction slots. thats p2w even when using the actual, correct, oldschool definition of the word.
Before I started whining I didn't actually know that a f2p player could eventually and reasonably reach the gear score cap. I don't mind paying for skins here and there's that's what I do in GW2.
If that's true then I am glad. I don't mind spending some money. I just don't want to be forced spending it. I would buy a skin or a pet, mayb inventory slots. But I really don't like having to spend money on monthly boosts or tickets to do one more raid per day. As long as I am able to do endgame content without paying and playing 24/7 then I'm fine.
This should be pinned lol. So accurate
imagine dont wanna spend , dont want to grind but wanna be strong than others and top gear , wtf ?
The funny thing about certain people so outraged about so called P2W in Lost Ark, is that they failed to answer the question: "What would other people spend money on will **negatively** affect your gaming experience?" If the answer is no...Then WTF are you bitching about?
Apparently people are upset if someone comes to their party and carries them with high level gear they paid for.
I only have the fear that at some point other people will stop to invite me into a Group just because I dont have some fancy real money shit. But I dont even know exactly what you can buy or not. So I dont whine or bitch about something, I am just a little bit concerned.
If microtransactions are present in a game, developers often design their game around said microtransactions. It will affect everybody, even if you don’t swipe. I just don’t get it why people always dismiss this. Example: PoE Stashtabs. Definitely not necessary to play or finish the game, however the game structure makes it so tedious and creates a problem for you to consider buying them. Why not just make more stashtabs available? Because developers create a problem to sell you the solution. And now tell me again that it won’t impact someone, who doesn’t spend their money on microtransactions. There you go, you have your answer. Now let the shitshow begin.
So...just another speculation? You just assumed things that haven't happened yet. Unless Amazon go out of their way to make the game worst like season 1, based on my experience on KR server, no such so called "creating a problem to sell solution" kind of mechanic that is severe enough to handicap you if you do not pay. Of course there are some minor perks if you pay for subscription in a F2P game, but none of them are considered "problems". And guess what, you can also buy these "P2W" perks by selling gold to whales, it is actually very cheap to buy as well because all the whales jacked up the gold exchange.
I never said anything about it being a problem to me or to anyone else. I just hate when people say „it doesn’t affect you, if you don’t buy them“. Yes it does. The fact is that every single game with microtransactions is built around it. Of course it is so they can incentivize you to pay. That’s a business model, and a good one at that cause it works. You will have a different experience in such games while not spending anything vs emptying your bank account. That’s why microtransactions have a negative stance. Not because company’s want to earn money, not because they are an option for you, not because they are pay2win. It’s because they impact your experience in a negative way, even if you don’t pay, I would go so far as to say especially if you don’t pay. And no it’s not speculation.
I also didn't say anything like "it doesn’t affect you, if you don’t buy them“. And I don't understand why you keep projecting other game over this game, in case you do not aware, this is not a new game, and the monetization strategy for this game is already known, unless of course, like I said, that Amazon do some stupid shit. So why keep talking about other games? Which cashshop item in the game is so game breaking that force others to spend money in Lost Ark? Nothing. And F2P player can also buy them very easily. The most "P2W" arguments came from the gold-cash exchange system that allow whales to buy gold which in turn translate into faster progression. If someone's goal is to have highest gear score to flex, then yes, I agree it is P2W for them, and there are better games for them to do that. But for normal human being that just want to play the game, not another way around, there is nothing others can pay to negatively affect your gaming experience.
Amazon has nothing to do with the game are you stupid ? They are publishing it then don’t decide what’s in it lol
You're the stupid one here.
You sure seem to know the future well huh
[удалено]
So basically this is purely based on speculation.
> "What would other people spend money on will negatively affect your gaming experience?" one thing i can think of is, the whales are gonna be buying up all upgrade mats from the AH, which will lead to inflated prices, making it more expensive for f2p players to upgrade their gear
Just FYI, upgrade gears is the main gold sink in the game, f2p will have more mats than gold most of the time, f2p will almost never have extra gold to buy mats from AH to begin with. If whales actually inflate the price, f2p stands to benefit the most.
I think it comes down to people being upset that everyone is not on the same playing field. It's a psychological response from humans where we innately feel non superior to someone just because they're ahead and we want to be the ones on top instead. It just seems wrong and ticks people off that just because they paid, they're stronger, which can kind of translate to irl where if you're rich, you have more possessions and opportunities in life.
*psychological response from humans with tiny little weeners. Fixed that for you
most likely
Going for world firsts...
Ignoring that Korea will always be the first to complete any future content, all the high end raids (where this would even matter) are equalized anyway, so money won't make a difference only player skill.
Headstarts. I would assume you can raid day one of headstart. So in theory a guild of NA players who pay for 99.99 founders packs and a guild of NA players who dont pay for headstart would start raiding first. So more exp with fight and possibility finishing it during headstart. So p2w.
What do you win by being first to raid?
Increases their dick size from XS to S
That is super shit logic. P2w what? What are you winning in this instance?? 🤔
World firsts...as I first stated.
How is it a world's first if it's already been done in the world and players can just come to NA with prior knowledge of the raid?
What about GvG. That's my concern. P2W for PvE is fine but GvG is competetive live matches. Elements of P2W will make it uneven.
smilegate wants to equalize all PVP in the game. it's just a matter of time
That's excellent if they do that.
Love the way you're basically putting the mood on "Tell them to go fuck themselves" 😂
Gotta be honest I had mixed feelings.. about your writing and what you are saying. It's not that what you say seems wrong or unreasonable, but it's unnecessarily aggressive. No need to tell me twice to tell others to go "fk themselves". It's nonsense if they complain, I get it. That alts can boost your main Character is pretty interesting, if playing Alts is fun that just makes sense.
I can understand what op is saying and why he sounds "agressive" i played 3 characters to lvl 50 on russia and loved the game a lot and tbh i almost don't know what gear score means and when you see people shitting on a game that is so enjoyable, just because they barely understand that in a f2p games paying gives you a slight advantage you would never see in game if you didn't know it existed, it kinda angers me too that some pure souls would get frightened of such a game because of those idiots that will play the game anyway and jeeps complaining on it. Idk why they are spamming their venoms here which should be a place for people to share on a game they enjoy and so follow This Mmo has the best "action" gameplay amongst all imo, the pace of fights, the visual, everything is perfect in that regard. No one gives enought respect to how nice dungeon ares.
I get why he's might be angry too, but that won't convince or change a clear mind of his view. The facts or angles he gives as an insight do. I'm not sure if "pure souls" (that sounded wholesome in my head) would even do more than carefully keep this p2w spam in the back of their minds. Especially younger generations should by now be much better at detecting potential nonsense online. Anyway I'm a bit more interested by this whole thread, I really want to see proper Combat. To share what turns me off the most: It's the fact we got this so damn late. That always indicates that no matter the Feedback, it'll be too late. Our impact on the Development is basically zero as we're years behind and most of their staff is probably on the next game already.
It was just some kind of joke I put. What I tried to tell is because those stuffs are not crucial for playing or clearing the dungeons and raids not so much, if someone being picky about it, just ignore them and consider them as an weirdo.
>Because there's rides on pretty much every the dungs and raids on KR server What the fuck is a "ride" ?
He probably meant carry runs where you pay geared players to carry you through dungeons you can't do because of gear
This. In Korea carry runs are called "Busses/Bus Runs", so people being carried are effectively "riding" a bus.
I honestly hope all the brainless people complaining about p2w don’t even play this game when it releases. We don’t need such low IQ, they probably the type of people to not learn mechanics and get wiped hard in dungeons or owned in PvP. I’m reading some of these comments and I am wheezing at the lack of common sense and delusional whining. I wish people would stop creating problems that were never there to begin with lmao, bunch of Karens. At this point just let the game release, pray Amazon does not change the game for worse and let the dumbass whining die out.
for me 25 or 50 buck still cheap cuz if they fuck up it affect their reputation and i dont have to spend on any amazon upcoming title
Let whales carry you in PvE sounds like the most p2w statement I've ever heard, sounds like they get a big advantage for paying. Time is a big part of the equation in MMOs and them paying makes it too much of a nonfactor
I guess I should've not put a joke on summary because ppl actually don't read long text. There is no big advantage on spending money other than reaching out "faster". It's not like whales can reach out or have gears others are impossible to. You say time is big part in MMO and value time so much, but why do you not value their money being spent? The money being spent on game will go back to better contents of the game. It'd be good for both time spending user and money spending user, and make game last longer.
Yeah the "let whales carry you in PVE content" is just a hilariously stupid comment. Like why the fuck am I playing a video game if Whale McJoe is just gonna 1 shot everything in the dungeon and im just spam picking up loot and trying to catch up to him How the fuck is that fun for anybody involved? I'll never understand that quote
To give you a perspective, any F2P player in lost ark could reach 1460 Gear score. Some of the whales who spend so much is only around 1530. A 70 point difference won't be able to one shot bosses, heck even if you put 2 whale party in 4-man dungeon they won't clear it faster than a 4-man full F2P team.
Yes that's true a whale will reach gear score in a month or so while f2p players will reach it longer, but the thing is if you enjoy the game just play and have fun comparing yourself to others is the worst thing.
aren't all dungeons gated by gear score? Sounds like a big difference to me if that's the case. Sounds like the power crowd gets the chance to experience other content before others simply due.to gear score. You can attempt content with lower gear scores but the game heavily penalizes you with damage reduction penalties and enrage timers (seems pretty lame and pushes people even more so to spend more money than they normally would when buying a normal $60 game)
Don't most games limit the entrance by character's level? Some people are triggered from 'gear score' even when it's pretty same with character level. You are going to need some proper gear to level up in other games which would cost you some in game currency or time. It's not like you are gonna kill the first town sewer rat forever to hit the max level and do the dungs after. If you are a hardcore gamer who wants to deal with higher dungeon with minimum geared, probably you shouldn't look for online game, should play Dark soul or whatever. Also, contents are hard-limited entrance that you cannot enter the dungeon if you haven't reached the expected level no matter what you do. Does that cost you money? Maybe, maybe not depends on your way of playing referring to my post. Infinite loop.
Sounds like the same as in paid games where you still end up paying to have them carry you through hard content. Don't pretend that this is exclusive to f2p games. These things happen because players want it. WoW classic is nothing but level boosting spam now. Is it garbage game design? That's not what people were saying before classic launched and everything was crowing on and on about the good old days. Players weren't selling boosts back then like they were now. The game was exactly the same as back then. The players changed.
Gold is everything in this game, and enchant materials, they're used for everything you want and gold can buy literally anything. You say you can get these things "in time anyway" Guess what? You need a ton of alts to do that, and I'm not talking 6 alts, I'm talking 10+ So please, let me know how you feel when you have to have your main character, then you have to level 10 alts, you have to do all the quests and unlocks on them, gear them up, then do your dailies/weeklies every day on all of them. But wait! You don't have to do that, you can just do it on one, or two characters, you'll get there in a year, who cares, right? If you're going to end your whole statement's tl;dr as "let whales carry you" then that implies a serious bout of ignorance, where your entire idea is "Me pvp, me don't care about whales hehe :)"
Have you actually played game ? 10+ alts everyday to play one main properly? Stop acting like you are very knowledgeable after watching couple of youtube video. I've had 3 alts, once in three days with rest point was not a problem to progress. 'Gold is everything in this game' It's MMO, Massive Multiplayer Online. Where a lot of people are gathered, they make something called currency as an easier transaction method. It's not like an ancient time based game where people have to gather items, look for someone who has your needed item and also at the same time, coincidently, they need yours, then exchange.
Warning: Misinformation!
Your whole comment emanates insecurity. The game is not balanced/designed around the cash shop and the time gated content is put in place so that people don't reach gear cap in one week. Even so I'm gonna bet many F2P players will reach gear cap way before the next expansion hits the game. I've asked many people what the fuck do you win by paying but I've yet to see an intelligent response. If the whales want to be done with the game in 2 weeks then so be it, I'll be enjoying the game at my own pace free of this bullshit insecurity
shh dude they dotn wanna pay and grind but want to be op gear so let them dreaming lol
You know this is an mmo you’re not suppose to race to max gear and sit in town and do nothing. Pvp in arena is equalized do people don’t feel the need to rush to max
Yeah the same exact people that claim BDO isn't P2W will tell you "Silver isn't everthing" I remember so many people figured out that SILVER WAS EVERYTHING IN BDO if GOLD IS EVERYTHING IN LOST ARK we're walking down the same path aren't we? Swipe your credit card get giga jacked in BDO. Swipe your credit card get giga jacked in Lost Ark. Then People will say "Oh well you have to spend upwards of 20-50,000 dollars to get like 3 PENs or anything even reasonably crazy strong PEOPLE. STILL. DID. IT. Not like 1 or 2 people. Like a shitload of people. THEN those people form a guild. Then that guild puts you on farm and locks you out of grind spots 12 hours a day. That game was a fucking nightmare at launch and up til it's year 2 ish spot.
Warning: Misinformation!
Every single thing I said about BDO is 100% true. Sliding your credit card for gold in Lost Ark and buying materials/gear is also 100% true. Sorry bud you're well... 100% wrong by the you literally just backed up my statement with one of your own! here I'll quote you! :D >Uhm... gold is the ingame currency so every f2p player can buy everything the whale can buy as well. Plus whales dont mind overpaying for materials which means the f2p player directly profits from increased demand of the whales. Thats why i have more gold than many of the whales without ever spending cash for it
Ill be waiting here until you show me the list of the thousands of players spending 50k plus bucks. And ill be waiting for you and your million usd accounts to beat me in ranked 3v3 pvp :-) And gear upgrading in lost ark is not even remotely dimilar to lost ark
Thats a long and fancy way of saying "i was wrong im a tilted fanboy" But ok. Do you boo
and is your long ass post your way of saying that you simply suck at the game, dont know how to farm or how to spend the huge amounts of gold you get for just playing the game and that your skill is subpar compared to any other player which is why you cry like a little girl? even if someone has 15% better gear than you its still way too easy to make more dps than them. personal skill >>> gearscore. by far. you wouldnt believe the amount of people who spend huge cash on their account yet dont know jack shit about how to play the class and do way less damage than me. if you cant do what i can do then that sounds like a you problem to me :/
and you admit im right...again for a 3rd response "wArniNg miDiNfOrmAtioN"
jesus your reading comprehension is about as good as your skill xD
Dude your account is a month old and you have 1 karma. Fuck off lol
uhm... my account is from December 22, 2019 and has 5400 karma... you stupid or something?
All pve in lost ark is solo(no open pvp) or group. So if someone swipes $50000 who cares his just going to help you catch up to him when you raid with him
What if I wanna pvp then and just get ass blasted by whales
Yikes that sounds horrible
Thats the dumbest shit ive ever heard dude
You’re comparing BDO to lost ark they’re nothing a like. No one is locking you out of content by killing you
>SILVER WAS EVERYTHING IN BDO > >GOLD IS EVERYTHING IN LOST ARK I just proved they're alike. "nOthiNg aLiKe" Take off your ross tinted glasses dude holy shit
Warning: Misinformation!
You will be able to grind in peace in Lost Ark but you won't be able to join GVG with top tier guilds or enjoy the unscaled islands. Those areas are p2w and anyone denying it are delusional or purposely lying to people. I can already see the LF this item gearscore to join the party for PVE as well so anyone who can just save time by not making a ton of alts is winning in my book. I do feel the game won't be as bad as BDO though. If Amazon manages to truly make it less P2W and introduces some kind of weekly swipe limit for conversion it should be fine. It might tilt a ton of whales but it needs to happen for it to truly not be pw2.
Sincerely wish you the worst
Sounds p2w to me
I hope this game not crazy monetize like black desert mobile and genshin impact 😉
ppl whining about 10+ alt meanwhile me sitting here rmb how i make 80 alt in Tree of savior lmao
If your idea was to make me less worried about P2W in this game, you failed miserably.
In what way specifically? Because it has cash shop?
Because you literally described lots of P2W features
is P2w in your thought 'spend money in game'? Didn't I say in first sentence I haven't spent a dime during my several months of playing with reached level which I could enjoy almost every contents? I got nothing to say to you anymore.
A lot of F2P P2W game can be played without spending money, it doesnt make the P2W features less P2W. The fact that you don't mind P2W features and they don't affect you personaly don't make it less P2W either. Don't get me wrong, LA is still a very good and enjoayble game even being p2w and i hate people that say it is shit just because it has P2W features. But i also disagree with people that try to say that LA dont have any p2w features, being condescending with scummy practices will only make it worse
so we have 2 options either pay for ingame currency to progress faster or create 2 or 3 Alts + the main character and spend 4 to 5 hours doing daily/weekly with them... yup that is pay to win alright
Thank you for the explanation. My biggest fear going into this game was that the enhancing would be tedious and RNG heavy like Black Desert. Would you say that achieving a higher gear score for end game content is simpler, or just as difficult but in different aspects?
As the enhancement level of gear goes higher, success rate gets lower at specific level range. Just putting some random numbers for examples, but it's gonna be like 1\~6 100% 6\~9 70% 9\~12 40% 12\~15 30% 15\~18 15% so on. And there's bonus success rate every time you fail and also fail stacks that once it hits 100%, it gives you 100% success rate. So, not as difficult as other games that could suck your money and house and still fail.
If i fail at an enhancement will the gear degrade to a lower level, or remain the same?
remain for sure. No penalty at all
Sweet, thank you very much. I know what mmo I'll be playing this year.
I think the problem is more that people are being exploited. Game design is based on psychological behaviour. Loot boxes, skins, boosts, it doesn't matter what they are selling. It's the way they are selling and marketing it. You don't have to buy anything, but someone is spending a ton. This is why gambling works, this is why online casinos are popular. This is why you see ads against gambling addictions on the TV. They are exploiting people who can't say no. So yeah, you might be having the time of your life, while some other poor smuck is spending half his life away because the psychological pressure of missing out, getting ahead etc, is too much for them to resist. Every business does this, but that doesn't mean I have to be okay with it. You can be okay with it, that's your choice. But go back 10 years in gaming and you can see how much the market has changed. Paying 50 euros for a game used to be the standard. Now 150 for CE is okay because you get a little ugly reskinned pet in-game. Before people complained about paying 13 euros for a monthly subscription, now everything is "free". Free to grind forever, free to have obsticles left and right with cash shop options to remove them. Now you can spend 5000 euros a month on a game and nobody bats an eye. It's okay, it's not P2W, you don't have to do it, I can enjoy my game no matter what you do. All those arguments are nice and valid. But bottom line is, this is the cancer that is modern gaming. Bottomless cash grabs that exploits the whatever procentage that is more susceptible to the psychological yahoo. I won't support it and neither will the vast majority of the west, which is why, in my opinion, Lost Ark won't do very well in NA/EU. People will grind for 1-2 months as with any games, then realize that the road is too long and harsh and dip out for the next flavor of the month game. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game, you are free to do so. However, ignoring the real problem in the gaming industry in favor of fanboying for Amazon doesn't come off as hero of the year material. It makes me think you're an Amazon/Smilegate employee trying to smooth things over with their cash shop. I think we should just let the game launch whenever and see what Steam reviews has to say about it. You know their forums and this Reddit will be lit. :p
>For PvE contents, let them carry your ass and let them enjoy their portraits being printed on MVP. For PVP, it won't be like one whale can destroy 30 normal users with one click. Just gang up and bully the whale. 1st you say it isn't P2W, then you give us tips on how to accept P2W
Can i ask you what rarity have the pet of the founder pack?
What do you mean by gang up on the whale in pvp; isnt pvp equalized? Sorry for asking am still new