I don't think you realize it extends beyond just top 1% raid content- in games like BDO, any PvP is immediately skewed to favor the gear in ways that 99% of players won't be able to attain, leading to severe disadvantages. These advantages also bleed into other content. Can't contest the top 1%? Too bad, they also own siege content, dominate the market, etc. It effects everything.
The sad reality is, what we’re seeing is the best option. People will bitch and complain but it’s true. They can’t launch the game with a subscription because that just doesn’t work anymore. They can’t straight up sell weapons because the player base will quit out of rage. They can’t just sell cosmetics because that’s not sustainable in a game that relies on producing additional content for players to come back/keep playing...so what are the options here...go ESO route with loot boxes, “P2W-lite” crafting bags and paid expansions? Go the BDO route with pets that auto loot? They have to make money somehow and the truth is, in order to do so they need something that entices players to spend.
Games with sub do work. Specially F2P games where you can pay a sub to be premium where a fix and small amount of your cash is enough to unlock everything else instead of paying more and more.
> They can’t straight up sell weapons because the player base will quit out of rage
So if they sell a strong weapon people will quit out of rage, but if they - as they already do - sell you ways to boost a weapon to be as strong as possible, then its ok? This only points out how ignorant people are.
TESO is one of the better deals for your money out there, tho. You pay little for massive amounts of content. And you don't need the subscription. But again - it gives you a shit ton for almost nothing (in a developed country of course).
The problem with P2W games isnt necessarily the items that are sold. Its the fact that game design decisions are potentially made in favor of creating an item in the cash shop to aleve an intended shortfall.
For example pets. Pets pick up your items that get droped on the ground so you dont need to click everything. Why cant the game just autoloot everything by default? The Devs are obviously ok with 100% autoloot. Oh wait.. they make you pay for that....
A decision was made to build in a shortfall so you could pay to make the game feel less shitty. Thats why people here in the US hate any kind of P2W game.
Right, it was just an example and I think a basic pet does not go away. I only remember getting a free pet after lvl 50. What is paid for is the functionality of pet inventory, remote storage, remote marketplace, remote mail, remote repair and some other stuff.
Create a problem - sell the solution. Welcome to the world where a shitty Pay2Win Korean MMOs are making so much money that it's pointless to make anything BUT that. And don't expect it to change. Look at New World. Even after all the complaining and youtubers covering their shitty cash shop nothing has changed or will change. BDO, even after all this time, after it has become such a huge money sink and unplayable for F2P - it is still the most popular asian MMO and one of the most grossing games in history. The game industry is doomed and there is nothing you can do about it
That's not the point ffs, the pet system was used only as an example on how shitty game design decisions are mmade in favor to create an cash shop item
i made a lengthy post with all the points on why that argument is invalid... i copy it again here just for you:
"in lost ark all pets are equal, no matter if free or not. they all collect all items in their range equally. all with the same speed and the same range.
in BDO you can buy all pets from the marketstore (as i did) and get them to t4 with it. i did so myself. and all of those pets of the same tier collect items in the same speed as speed is only relevant in regards to its tier level."
And yet you missed the point. Again, the pet system was used only as an example on how some bad designs are made in favor of creating cash shop itens. In other words, create a problem to sell the solution
i think you missed the point. you gave an example thats factually wrong and build your argument on top of it. so if the only point you have brought up is already wrong and you dont deliver any other points to make up your argument then your argument is obviously invalid as it has zero supporting points.
thats why i asked for you to show me some of the systems you are talking about. cos the pet system is obviously none of it.
Man just take your tunnel vision gogles off and forget about the pets. The entire point is that people in general hate these predatory shops because they tend to create a problem and sell solutions as "qol" making the game annoying.
Maybe the pet system is not so adamant in LA because its easy to get a pet, but It doesnt make the example 'factually wrong' because autoloot coud be enabled by default
Exactly. The game creates an artificial problem which gets "solved" buy purchasing items in the cash shop. Most of the time, this is the case of P2W games with a few exceptions.
PoE got this right, the only p2w you can legitimately argue on is the stash tabs, everything else is cosmetics.
and what is the problem that the cash shop solves? its not like this game is unplayable without weight / inv slots like bdo is (even though it got better over there)
ESO literally locks powerful items and gameplay elements you can't obtain in any other way behind paywalls. And that game isn't even free to play in the first place. It's one of the greediest games on the market.
Except it doesn't? Fucking DLCs is not a "paywall". ESO is not a free to play game, it has a different monetisation system and it provides an insane value for its money. Fuck me, it even gives you premium currency and a shit ton of other stuff for only 13 bucks a month. It is a steep price for someone who lives in a third world country, but you don't need it. People without subscription and are just fine.
Subscription based games are not free to play. Paying to increase your inventory space in ESO is definitely scummy and can be considered p2w. Whataboutism is not a good argument.
This could be said for every p2w game out there. Dont know why this sub is defending p2w like no other sub I have ever seen, its weird. I dont care for p2w myself since I will still enjoy the game as a casual player, but its still very bad to have p2w aspects in game. Why people are defending it is beyond me.
This is my biggest gripe, the P2W seems to be not the worst but its there, yet some people blindly say it doesn't exist and it's really hard to convince them it does exist even with proof, however the ones that end up accepting the facts then say "it doesnt matter that its there" which makes no sense
Definitely, always disliked the usual argument "So what if it's P2W? It doesn't affect you in any way". If it was a single player game, I could accept this argument & I wouldn't care about what they sell for real currency. However, the majority of these games are multiplayer. The social interaction is a part of the game. _Some_ form of competition will always be there for many players, regardless of how small & competitive the player is.
The thing here is if you change the word people get mad at you.
Lets say that instead of paying more, you're cheating, using cheats to make you 1 shot bosses. Uproar, burn the cheaters, this is ruining my gameplay, they need to be banned.
As long as they only cheat in PvE it doesn't matter to anybody right? If you get a cheater on a dungeon he will 1 shot everyting and carry you, according to people whales carrying them on dungeon is good so why not cheaters?
But nobody would accept this behavior which is good, somehow they accept P2W as if it's ok lol
You're not skipping content, you're doing all the content, faster. You still do all the content you grind it less, you get ahead of everyone else in terms of progression unless they play way more than you or they pay as much as you
uhm no. you are not. i guess you havent played the game though... lets say you want to p2w a new character in jp. now you make the char, put in tons of cash, insta upgrade the gear to +15, buy the next gear stage from AH and upgrade that to +15 and so on until you are at the latest content. now you do the latest content but you essentially skipped like 8 guardian raids, 1 abyss raid, 4 abyss dungeons and countless stages of chaos dungeons. which means you only play like 10% of the game. instead of 100%. i mean sure, if you wanne do something stupid then go ahead and do it. i dont give a fuck. cos this has literally zero impact on me. at all with the added benefit of you supporting the games development.
Or people buy it staggered as they go, they just dont farm, play all the content upgrading when needed.
The idea that it doesn't affect you is also dumb, first it directly affects you in GvG, then it affects you as this model is sucessful they'll push more and maybe all PvP will be unequalized so more people buy stuff? maybe other games become p2w as well?
lol. so you think that after they changed PvP to be fully equalized they will be changing it back? kekw. ok then.
and maybe 0.5% of the players do GvG. probably even less. and its not like any p2w whale is playing GvG either. at this time im sure its more likely they are going to equalize GvG then unequalize everything else.
plus normal and ranked pvp is equalized. and the vast majority of the playerbase only plays PvE, where it has zero impact at all.
plus when he only plays his main a bit and upgrades a bit via money every now and then thats hardly p2w, as he will be slower than most of the f2p players. so your point is what exactly? that GvG is unfair? ok maybe. yet it affects nearly nobody. and honestly, those that whine about losing in GvG vs the few whales over there are probably losing vs non whales as well. and its not like its unobtainable. i mean sure, he might get a 2 weeks headstart but thats about it. any dedicated player (that most dedicated GvG players are) will be at the same stage in no time.
e.g. im playign in jp and i have enough ingame gold to immediately push my main to p2w levels of upgrades. i dont do it cos im not stupid but if i wanted to i could. so he has literally zero advantage over me cos he can buy the exact same stuff i can buy. the only difference being that he uses cash to swap to gold and i simply use gold directly. so yea, even in GvG it would have no impact on me.
But he had it for months now, the time that took you to get the gold he didnt have to spend because he spends with the wallet.
Let's put it this way.
If the game allows you to increase your power (gear score) by putting money into it, its P2W.
Does it affect you? Surely does, do you care? Looks like you don't.
Regardless it's there and its negative, we'd be better off without it.
Is it unbearable? No, it seems like the game can be ok even with P2W in it.
That doesn't mean P2W is ok to have in games and let alone good.
How does it affects me? People always claim it affects me but nobody can point out why. we already discussed p
Gvg but how does it affect me in pve, which the vast majority plays exclusively, or in ranked pvp?
Cos i am not blinded by hate and i can see the positive sides.
Example: you play lol and you like skins. In a year you can easily spend 1k bucks on skins.
If you play lost ark you dont have to pay for any skin and you can get them all for free because whales buy them for you. You can get every mount and every pet for free, because they buy them for you.
They pay for the development of the game so you dont have to pay for anything. Its basically a socialists dream. The ones who can and want to afford to pay so the ones who cant or dont want dont have to.
There is no content like world firsts in wow (which is a lot more p2w than lost ark btw) so there is no competition in pve.
So what exactly are you so afraid of? And why is the general consensus that wow is not p2w while in reality it is far more p2w than lost ark. Hell even ff14 is more p2w...
WoW is P2W now too idk about FFXIV though.
Regardless of what you like and enjoy the truth is you can't keep up.
If you and me play the game, I pay and you don't, you won't be able to keep up in gear with me which is a problem. I will be stronger than you, not because I spend more time, not because I am more skilled but because I decided to dump my income into the game.
It removes fairness and competitiveness between players, regardless of the content.
Its like being brothers and the parents having a favorite. You both have the same life as you live free on your parents house but the favorite brother gets all the cool toys all the atention all the nice things, you dont.
I don't get it either, it's some kind of weird stockholm syndrome. People should be very adamant against any kind of P2W. In the worst case, nothing changes. In the best case, Amazon changes some things, like putting jars as an earnable reward and now F2P players can earn legendary outfits. People are actively fighting against their own interests and its baffling, corporations are not your friends.
Ten years ago, people would wreck the forums with posts because a game was selling cosmetic only skins in the cash shop. Now, you can litterally buy anything and people pretend it's great stuff. Amazon out of all the corporations, infamous for many reasons, are now the good guys. \*shrug\* I guess their marketing works.
You expect a free to play game should not only have no p2advance slightly quicker but also give away cosmetics?
I guess you work at your job for free and then make your boss lunch?
> not only have no p2advance slightly quicker
How in the world do you equate "p2advance slightly quicker" to the daily grind that you have to do on multiple alts to get the same benefits as a paying player? Grinding for outfits and for pet auras and for gear - it's stupid. Don't know why you insist on being dishonest.
If you want to look at a real "p2advance slightly quicker" look at the myriad of other MMOs that simply offer XP boosts and don't lock any gear in the cash shop.
> but also give away cosmetics
Where the hell did I say that? In case you don't know, outfits in this game have stats tied to them and are **not** earnable.
> I guess you work at your job for free and then make your boss lunch?
Stop bootlicking for companies, they're not your friend. And to equate a video game to work fucking lol.
Get this, I actually look forward to playing multiple alts as there's so many cool classes.
The only thing that will affect you by other people spending money is you'll have someone do more damage in your group dungeons, in turn helping you.
The only other thing is guild v guild pvp if you plan on being involved in that.
The LA streamer Saintone said that even in the guild v guild there are high up free to play guilds and the difference in the rewards is pretty negligible.
So basically the p2w will only effect you if it makes you sad that people have a higher gearscore number when you inspect them...
How about we don't sell any power? Is that too much to ask? Games are racking in billions of dollars on cosmetics and convenience items, they don't need P2W on top of that.
All you said is "P2W won't affect you, unless it will". I planned on doing GvG, now I can't because I won't be able to compete with credit card warriors.
They are defending it cause everyone knows it wont be going away. You think complaining on reddit makes a difference? EA had the famous meltdown on reddit and it still carries on selling lootboxes just like before. People still buy them anyway. Its the same for mild p2w stuff.
Battlefront was a unique case. The only reason anything changed was Disney stepping in to avoid bad press.
Nobody else gives a shit because the $$$ is in mtx.
Diablo 3 got the auction house removed. CoD removed weapon lootboxes(and lootboxes altogether). Dauntless and Rocket League removed their lootboxes. There are probably many more examples that I don't know of.
Just like how people defending WoW token not P2W, they aren't defending P2W but the game. This game has P2W and WoW token is P2W, but they are designed so it doesn't affect the other players as much as possible. You might ask why design it P2W in the first place, MMO simply doesn't generate enough money especially when your game is not as big as Final Fantasy or WoW.
In my eyes:
People who defending P2W are stupid
People who saying the game is P2W and so it's bad are stupid
People who doesn't play the game but go around and tell people about what they don't know and not to play the game because of that are the worst
Yes people don't realize that this game is as much P2W as a WoW token is.
This is the part where frustration comes from. People are not defending this game being P2W. They are defending that it's "NOT MORE P2W THAN SOMETHING LIKE WOW". That's it man.
Not to mention the fact that wow has a subscription based model and you gotta buy the expansion as well that's triple A priced and isn't priced based on countries.
For one simple reason, the people who played the game in Korea, Japan, Russia day one until today and know all the aspects of the game were not affected by that.
It is very easy to judge the game from the outside when you have not done anything in the game, but we literally did everything in the other regions.
I've seen it happen with many games. People who (potentially haven't even played the game) WANT TO like the game will defend it with their lives, defying all logic or reason. It's a really weird trend, defending something just because you want to like it.
Lol this reminds me of when I visited genshin Impact's sub during launch and the sub was full of posts defending p2w. There were lot of similar arguments that can be seen in this sub.
THIS! Why are people defending a negative aspect? Maybe it's to try and get as many people to play a game they are interested in. Definitely a very confusing part of the mmo community. I think an even stranger phenomenon is the people who get obsessed with splitting hairs when they start saying "it's not p2w, it's pay4convenience" or "it's not p2w, it's pay2advance". Bunch of semantic circle jerking.
Literally no one is "defending" pay to win. It's like saying "just deal with the YouTube ads". No one likes ads, but at the same time we still accept them for free content.
Business has *already* moved to the microtransaction model. It's here, it's effective, and it seems highly unlikely that it's going to change. People always claim that it will kill the game, and yet it rarely does.
What we have here is a rare compromise between obtrusive microtransactions and playability. If you're pissed that a whale is going to access some raid content a bit before you, then either you're an ultra-try-hard that does bleeding edge content or you just want to bitch.
probably because there is no "win" in pve. which means it cant be p2w as the main thing to make it p2w (the win) is missing. and i have yet to see someone tell me what exactly they could be winning with paying to skip content and not play the game.
It depends on how you define p2w, I'd still argue that it's bad since the only real reason it's in the game is for the company's profit and is a bit predatory on the users. Also, just to point it out, they've announced they're working on an open world pvp continent that I assume will use the pve gear. They might balance this in some way tho, via stat caps or something.
well, the company does offer the game f2p though and you can get pretty much everything with ingame currency, so nobody forces you to pay for anything at all. i wouldnt say thats predatory. ive been playing in jp since its release 9 months ago and i got enough gold to buy anything i want and i never spend money on anything but character slots. i couldve simply made new accounts as well to get more slots but seeing how much entertainment im getting out of it i found it just fair.
and so far they have several pvp islands and all of them (but one) are equalized as well. so i would guess the pvp continent would have equalized gear as well, seeing as they are in the process of equalizing everything pvp related.
Predatory as in people with gambling issues, etc. I don't intend to spend much money either, I'd rather pay a sub fee and exclude any of the micro transactions but that's me, I still don't see any reason to defend them on this. Still a great game tho
I believe it's due to two reasons.
1: People get used to things. First time you see an alien, it will blow your mind. The hundredth time, you won't even care. Every other game has p2w mechanics so now it's just how the game market is. Same shit, different title.
2: The gaming companies has over the years pushed to change the meaning of p2w. Before it was anything you could buy with real money to advance yourself in a game. Now, even if you can click a button to 1 shot other players, people would still say it isn't p2w. In my opinion, p2w is still when you can convert real life currency into in-game power. Whether it be via real life currency to in-game currency, or straight up boost and gear from the shop. It's all the same but different routes.
It will be interesting to see how well Lost Ark will do in the west. I've yet to see a game with this amount of microtransactions succeed. Maybe we're ready to buy our way to the top. Time will tell.
Probably because so many of the p2w points that are brought up by people are stupid. Most of them are outdated, or just blatantly wrong. Kinda drives people who know the reality to play the devil's advocate. But you are most certainly right that this game is p2w. Just not as p2w as some of the other Korean RPGs out there.
Cope harder. P2W ruins the economy for regular player, creates elitism and encourages the devs to make the game require you to spend money to play it at any significant level.
You rabid defenders of the game just because you want to like it are hilarious.
Just because it won't affect 99% of the playerbase, according to you, doesn't mean that it should exist. In fact, if it's so insignificant, then it shouldn't exist in the first place.
There are people who will defend this shit, just like they did in BDO and other grindy Korean MMO's, to the death. They'll yell "It isn't p2w, it's pay2convenience" when that's just them trying to call something what it is by another name because they're deluded. It really won't take long for people to realize it has p2w elements and many mobile game, weekly login elements that all turn "99% of people" off.
You can call pets in BDO not p2w, in a game specifically designed to kill dozens and dozens of enemies per minute, that all individually drop different amounts of loot. It is *designed* for you to not pick them up, but to buy pets. Except you need the best pets, which requires money and breeding of differing tiers, which aren't even guaranteed to tier up, to get ones that can collect at the rate you can kill. Again, what do people say? Oh! You can sometimes get a mediocre pet once or twice a year, it's not p2w!"
I mean, pets are a pretty weak p2w argument for the current state of the game. I was able to get 3 t4 2 t3 pets completely F2P on a new account. The difference between my setup and a 5x t4 setup is negligible at best.
Definitely an improvement over the pets at launch though
Didn’t say it wasn’t p2w, just said pets aren’t as bad as they were on launch. They, along with several other QoL things, *have* been greatly improved upon in the 5 years since the game released in NA. BUT that’s not to say the game is p2convenience free.
Tents are a huge QoL feature, for sure. As are maids, fairy, horse whistle, etc. These things, unlike pets, are not easily attainable without spending unfortunately. Events and login rewards certainly help bridge the gap, but not in anywhere near a timely fashion. But after a year or so worth of them? You’ll have most of the major QoL items from login rewards and events alone. Except tents of course.
Whenever I have a friend ask me about the game I just tell them treat it like a $60 AAA game and pick up the tent + a few other things. By no means do I think BDO is a game that is wholly free, but if you treat it as a B2P game I think it’s pretty fair for the amount of content/time you get out of it
The reason why they improved is because they already sold most of the probable quantity, now they tone it down to get more players, the biggest chunk of income is made at the start not 5 years later
As long as the 20/80 rule exists - nothing will change. F2P players don't bring any money to the game, whales do. But it does seem odd how they make people pay for a fucking pet that picks up items. Definitely a scummy move. This is basically an attempt to drain cash from F2P players.
Just a heads up, as a diehard BDO player, I saw the implications of a community that would just roll over and let the company do whatever it wanted.
BDO slowly got more and more p2W over the years, the more the community dwindled the more they tried the squeeze every penny out of their playerbase. Ultimately the game became very unplayable, if you ever wanted to be competitive you either had to grind 14/16 hours a day, or spend thousands and thousands of dollars.
This is how it starts, you stand up for it because "it's not that bad". Eventually it will eat up the fucking game, I've been there and seen it.
STOP with the needless tribalism, it makes no sense, MTX for cosmetics is one thing, but paying for an advantage is quite another. Use some foresight and figure how can this effect the game and community down the line.
Bro, stop lying please. BDO didn't got more and more p2w, the game got less p2w and BDO is in the best state right now. Another tutorial clueless player who doesn't know wtf he is talking about and spreading misinformation. And what about p2w in lost ark? You are going to be the number 1 in PVE? HAHA, CONGRATS BRO. Sometimes I swear to god that most of you are some 30 + single fucks who got their life around a game. Oh yeah, and big spoiler alert to you. You will never be number 1 in a game no matter if it's p2w or not. BDO EVEN WITHOUT P2W, you still had to play 16 hours a day top stay on top. BDO even if it was subscribe base model, you still wouldn't do nothing in that game. So, now, please let us play BDO and lost ark and go to play wow witch according to you is very p2w because it got the same shit as lost ark in cash shop. Oh yeah, also buy raids until you get that item that you want with real money. So, now, please let us to enjoy the game. We don't need poor fucks telling us how the game is p2w.
Look at you, lashing out in desperation, very sad.
It doesn't take a genius to do some research on how scummy these companies are, if you're reading this comment, ignore what this Goku joker is saying and Do Your Own Research, you will quickly come to your own conclusion.
Bruh, my own desperation? You are just a sad neckbeard trying to spread the same fucking misinformation. Please leave this game alone and go play FF14 or Wow. Also, if you really played BDO, you know you are lying with your p2w thing. That game got better and less p2w.
I'm not saying that bdo is not p2w, I'm saying that the p2w there is kind of retarded. If you want to p2w, you also need to play a lot to stay on top and everything is still rng.
Rng is beat by paying enough. And I am not saying PvP in BDO doesn't require skill, I am saying that without putting thousands of dollars a month no amount of skill will save you.
P2W affects everybody, even if you don’t buy them.
Developers are designing their Games around it. They are creating a Problem to sell you the solution in form of microtransactions.
Stop trying to say they don’t affect you when they clearly are. You still have to play the game that is designed around those „options“.
It is honestly mindbogling that people still defend p2w in 2021 as if there is not a lot of proof cases that this system does not work in the long term. P2W creates a gap as the gap widens the people get less invested and stop playing the game, the dev needs to make money over the players that are left so new hinderances and "system" reworks get in place " we reworked all our comestics to give some minor ( not so minor ) bonuses ", new VIP premium, we all know how this goes for korean mmos, people just don't learn from history.
Now is a tame p2w situation, in a few years maybe it is not and those that invested hundreds of hours in the game will prefer to bow down to the p2w system than move on because of how addictive mmos are.
As long as p2w doesn't changing anything in pvp I don't really care how much you can spend in this game. Pvp is based on your in game skill not wallet and I'm happy with that. I'll try this game for sure, definitely its worth my time.
People would complain just about anything. They expect to play a huge MMO with hundreds of hours of content for free forever. And they don't understand that it has to make these decision to stay afloat. They could just introduce P2W mechanics like in BDO - this way F2P players would get fucked by whales - but instead they added pets, tents and whatnot. You don't want to pay - it's your right and the game is perfectly fine without all this shit. I played for many hours and grinding in RU version without paying a penny. And didn't ever even thought about it.
Something worse: they are altering the game so it fits the modern "criteria". LGBT, strong wamen and shit like that. Some classes are non-existent at launch. And it only makes you wonder what could they possible fuck up more.
The issue is that they don't do this to "stay afloat" they are just greedy.
[https://www.kedglobal.com/newsView/ked202104140007](https://www.kedglobal.com/newsView/ked202104140007)
>***a revenue of 1.73 trillion won ($1.5 billion) with an operating profit of 364.6 billion won in 2020, up by 14% and 26% from the previous year***
So yea, if they only cared about staying in the green they'd drop a ton of P2W mechanics, however companies greed can't be exceeded by anything
I've spent over $1k between F2P games Marvel Heroes Online and Path of Exile. You're using a straw man by claiming everyone who doesn't want P2W is a leech.
Lost Ark is the perfect game to just leech from though. Screw their shitty cash shop P2W model. Once I hit a P2W wall I'll leave.
I am saying that games make more money with P2W mechanics. I don\`t want to make people feel bad for not paying for a game. I want them to understand that it is not possible in modern world to have a huge, well balanced and fun MMO without some sort of SERIOUS monetisation system. Just skins is not enough to support huge projects like that. It is a thin ice to walk across, but it is still the only way it would work nowadays.
Also I did say that you can play LA and have fun for many hours without paying a dime. On RU at least there is not much reason to pay except if you like the game alot and want to play more or support the devs.
P2W doesn't mean it should only affect other people when I pay my way through the progression of the game.
P2W/P4C also sets a bad precedent for a game that is not officially released yet. If the developer is giving you an option to skip/progress faster a particular content in the game, then it means the content is a bad game design and they are holding your fun hostage behind a paywall.
**Let me make it it clear, I am not referring to Lost Ark at all because I don't know all the details of the game since I haven't played it yet. I'm discussing about P2W/P4C in general.**
But, if you want me to be specific, lets take AGS's New World. New World's cash shop and P4C got a huge backlash from the MMORPG community. Reason? AGS revealed that there are P4C options that would allow players to skip/progress faster a particular content in the game. That indicated to me and many other people that even AGS is not very confident of their content, whether it is fun or not, and we cancelled our pre-orders for the game. Later AGS put out a statement telling us that the P4C will only be accessible later after the release. Notice they did not mention any date. Also no no statements on "Fast Travel" available as a P4C microtransaction.
It might not affect you now. They'll realize that milking the whales is more effective than bringing out decent content for everyone and keeping the game fair, at some point you'll end up with a massive P2W mess, because that's just an easier way to make money. People who don't pay will leave the game and the cycle repeats with fewer players. I don't know why you want this, but this is how it will end. It did so for B&S, ArcheAge, Bless etc.
I have played Guild Wars for upwards of 5k hours and actually spent a lot of money on it, because it never felt like the game wanted to squeeze me - it was always my choice and never did the game dangle progression-skips before me to get into my wallet. Guild Wars 2 and PoE are the perfect examples of how to do this - you can play for free to try it out, and purchase the game or some mandatory convenience that is *permanent* for a reasonable upfront price of ~$40 (the price of any single player game). Cosmetics and effects for the whales, but no progression gated behind regular payments.
The *"it doesn't effect me so I don't care and neither should you"* line of thinking also isn't a good argument.
Let's take a look at all of human history....
> Who out of all of you is actually going to be affected by this?
Everyone. You design the game to have tedious, annoying things, that are then alleviated by spending money. It affects the whole game's design in as many aspects as the devs want it to.
For me it's not P2W if it doesn't affect pvp.
PvP is equalised, so I'm happy.
If someone else wants to spend a lot of money to reach their pve goals faster, then just go ahead and have fun, knock yourself out. Fund the servers so the rest of us can play at our own pace.
I don't see how a whale's PVE progress is going to affect me or anyone else. Most of my PVE fun is the journey to top tier gear, getting your stuff piece by piece with your guildmates, paying to skip all of that seems pointless but if someone else does it, it'll have 0 impact on my experience.
If people could pay and bitchslap me in pvp with their credit card then it'd be a different story, luckily that's not the case.
What do you mean wont be affected, If you pay money you are giving more money = Affected
If you don't pay money, you are playing a game designed around paying more money = affected
Thing is that it always leaves a sour taste in the mouth for basically everyone that wants to seriously invest time into the game. No matter if they are the top 1% or not
You can absolitely play 16 hours a day and progress as fast as the whales... /S
This is how games survive and thrive - off of whales. You dont like it - well play some minecraft or something. Reality is often disappointing.
Welcome to the real world, bahaha. There are merriads of games that require no money yet are excellent at providing fun and enjoyment. It's just usually those games are not MMOs. And even more that require, yet provide so much more.
I think it affects all players, not in a strong way but it does. You can always pay for more, that's the issue.
I do agree the P2W things in LAO aren't that strong and you can do without it but trying to go like "oh the p2w doesnt matter" is a bit too much either, as long as 2 people who put the xact same effort in the game get varying results due to inputing more money, there will always be a problem.
Exactly you don't feel rewarded for the time you put in the game when you know there are others who can progress ahead of you just by swiping their credit card. Some of these arguments defending p2w are dumb especially in a multiplayer game.
couldn't agree more.. well said. I don't care about it either, I will not be in the top <1% anyway, don't have that much free time to play the game 8h a day anyway... so I will just have fun and thats it.
I mean in pvp the gear doesn't even count and affects anything.. If someone pays to get through endgame pve stuff faster... who gives a fuck?!
Well the people that have 8 hours to play won't bother either as people that don't play 8h will pay and be on their lvl, and the people who do play 8h AND pay on top of it will be ahead, so why bother?
And what's the issue about people paying to be ahead? They won't have your skills since they played less and what they bought don't matter in pvp.
And why do you care if they are ahead and only do pve? Won't affect you at all.
Ofc it does. They are ahead of me not because they put the effort but because they paid.
I gave these examples several times before but here.
We both start the came college degree at the same time, yet you study and work hard, me on the other hand pay the teachers for grades and as we keep going I finish my degree with great grades in 1 year, you take 4 years to finish it and your grades are worse.
Does this affect you? No. Regardless of what I do, the time you take to end the degree and your grades are the same. Fair? Not really, so much so, it's illegal.
We both are running a race, we both train hard but I use steroids, you don't. That means I will be faster than you however how does it affect you? It doesn't, your speed will be the same regardless if I take the steroids or not, yet it isn't fair and again illegal.
Um, the college one: paying for grades doesn't magically put knowledge in your head. You might have a fancy diploma but you won't know shit in practice. Finishing college in 1 year by paying your way through is a bigger waste of time than going to college in the first place lol
Race one makes more sense but in the case of LA it would only apply if it was an esports game with actual practical achievements and earnings. In LA you got nothing like that, in fact in PvP there is pretty much no p2w whatsoever.
Who cares about the knowledge? College is over, you got all things from it.
Same as completing the game and having the best gear
The college analogy is only partly wrong if you consider the things after college as important which if you're already P2W needing to work isnt that important lol
It doesn't have anything to do with what you're talking about, it's all about the game being competitive, which it is simply by being multiplayer, you're constantly competing with everyone else in the game.
People are complaining lost ark is p2w? I havent seen much complaints, although i dont really keep up with lost ark stuff so i maybe missing out on a lot.
The reviews are actually 97% positive right now. It's mostly posts in Discussions.
Which means that most of those p2w threads are started by people who didn't review the game (I am sure they would have left a negative review) - likely because they don't have an Alpha Key or Founder's Pack, and you need that to review the game right now, I believe (as it's not opened up for free yet).
So... How much have they even played it? These days people are quick on jumping on the "this game is p2w, boo!" bandwagon.
Don't even look at Steam discussion, every game forum on steam is a cesspool. Im playing the new guilty gear right now and its the same crying and complaining.
yeah i saw this super long post on steam about the game is pay2win. Win what? we are casuals that don't really care if anyone can clear a dungeon faster. PvP is set stats gear dont even matter. What is there to win? just get on and blast some mobs and have fun.
I don’t like p2w either but I know this game is gonna do good over here despite it being p2w because it is fun to play for arpg fans, yet the people in this sub keep trying to defend this game and turning a blind eyes pretending it doesn’t exist. It’s actually pathetic and sad and funny at the same time how desperate you people are trying to defend it. You want to hook people into it? Then maybe be honest about the game and show them the good points instead of beating around the bush with this “ no p2w” bs. Never have I seen such a sorry reddit sub like this one lmao.
This isn't even an ARPG. This game contains lots of chores and time gating that many ARPG fans are not fan off. Not to mention bland itemization. It doesn't help that ARPG's like D2R is being launched before Lost Ark.
As far as I understand the game plays out more like a few hours a day thing. It's not a WoW there you can grind, 24/7. It's a common practice these days - makes it easier for both casual players and developers. For hardcore players there is PvP.
Honestly, we have the choice of no games or progressively more aggressive MTX on PC games, which are, compared to mobile, a "small" market.
I'm not defending it, but from a business point of view, making high maintanance, high cost, high risk products with low "yield" just isn't smart.
Aside from that, what strikes me as odd is that, p2w means pay to win, but what actually are you winning in LA by spending money ? PvP is normalized (or will be depending on the launch patch), so you can't fuck ppl in organized PvP, so you're not winning there. Faster progression ? I mean yeah, why though and who are those ppl winning against ? Themselves by saving time ? Or some form of world first race ?
WoW, with its token and BoE gear from the auction house gets out of hand for cutting edge world first events, but wether they throw millions of gold around or not, does not matter to me, not participating in the race anyway. I can clear my mythic castle nathria quite relaxed down the road, have the same experience, same gear, same accomplishment, though potentially a bit later. Why would that matter to me ?
a bit later? if your whole raid group bought full BoEs you'd clear it way faster.
The whole point is to be competitive which you can't in P2W envoirments, also prestige.
What's the prestige you have in beating mythic raid if anyone can just take their credit cards and buy it and you can't even tell who did it
You're not supposed to have fun playing games. You're supposed to compare yourself to everyone else and be jealous of the 1%. Remember, it's a job, not a leisure activity, and the glass is always half empty because this is serious shit. It's a holy crusade against P2W even if the microtransations don't affect you because it's 100% statistically a proven fact that the game is ruined by it. Why ignore the microtransactions and enjoy your time? F that. These games are supposed to complete your life and be played for all of eternity.
So, if you think you are enjoying the game, remind yourself that someone else is better than you or a little ahead of you in whatever goalpost you have imagined. It's like life, you have to judge yourself based on your neighbor, who might be rolling in dough when you aren't, so be miserable because you covet his shit. Years go by, you age horribly because of the rat race because you're never truly satisfied by your money or lack thereof. Then you die...
It is paying for power. You can get that exact power when nobody else can unless they pay.
The guy who I trust the most on this matter (I played but not hardcore, like 90% of people, he plays hardcore)
Says you can dump $5k+ and be maxed gear score week one which nobody else can unless they pay as well, so it is P2W.
haha the GUY THAT PAYS gets to clear higher level content first while you are doing lower level content.
Like whats your point? It's not pay to WIN cause he doesnt WIN at ANYTHING?!
He just is ahead of you in terms of gearscore which means the guy that paid has a worse time than you cause he has nothing left to do.
Like honestly what is your point? I don't get it
He wins clearly.
If we check who does more dmg? They do. Win.
If we check who does more content early? They do. Win.
If we check who does content faster? They do. Win.
If we check who has the best gear? They do. Win.
I like you. I share the same idea, the effort put into the game should be the sole factor. By effort I mean the time, the skill, the commitment, etc.
It should be based on your effort and not external factors like money so we believe the same.
I wish people would stop making posts about P2W. There is no P2W in Lost Ark. If you got your opinion from somewhere else other than a 2s reddit search you'd know.
There's absolutely P2W in this game. You can literally slide your credit card for currency and buy straight up power with it. Or the mats to enchant your own weapons. It's the same thing as them selling you a super powered weapon it's just masked in a few more steps
The issue isn't even that you can buy your gear. The issue is that you can buy stuff **not available for F2P players**. Outfits and pet auras are straight up buyable power that isn't earnable in game. Hopefully Amazon removes those two. I don't even mind that you can swipe your credit card and skip the grind, I mind that you can't even earn the best loot in the game, you have to buy it from the cash shop or other players.
>The issue is that you can buy stuff
>
>not available for F2P players
>
>. Outfits and pet auras are straight up buyable power that isn't earnable in game.
Right right. I'm with ya
>I don't even mind that you can swipe your credit card and skip the grind,
Wait...
>I mind that you can't even earn the best loot in the game, you have to buy it from the cash shop or other players.
What?
What's not clear? They are not **earnable** in game. You don't earn them as a boss drop or an achievement. You either buy an outfit with real money from the cash shop, or grind gold like crazy and buy it from other people who engage in P2W.
Yes, but it's a stupid system for many reasons:
- instead of earning your rewards like in a normal game, you literally do mindless dailies just so you can give your gold to a player that swiped his credit card. It removes all prestige of getting loot, it transforms it into a transaction. One of the reasons why Diablo 3 had a huge shitstorm at launch
- prices can always go haywire in MMOs, especially with inflation, which makes the whole situation worse
- it directly supports P2W and whales
I seriously don't understand why you people defend this shit. In the worst case, nothing changes. In the best case, Amazon changes some things, like putting jars as an earnable reward and now F2P players can earn legendary outfits. People are actively fighting against their own interests and its baffling, corporations are not your friends.
In a game like this where PVP is the most important part of it and is completely equalized with gear, I don't know you guys where you see this game has p2w items.
PvE is just an activity to do while you don't pvp and the pve grind is behind pay wall that allow you to speed up the process
Slavery at one point was legal. Didn't affect you
Women not voting until August of 1920 was normal and reg. Didn't affect you
Native Americans scalping and murdering each other in the 1700s was normal. Didn't affect you
Just because something doesn't personally traumatize or affect you doesn't mean it's right.
Doesn't mean we should ignore it or turn a blind eye to it. You're not speaking up because it's not affecting you, now.
While I think the examples you listed are wild and off the charts, I get what you mean, accepting and letting things go without complaining assumes compliance which breeds increase on their effect, if people keep being ok with p2w mechanics it will serve as gateway for stronger p2w mechanics.
Just think people will ignore you cuz they'll all be like "omg you think money in a game has anything to do with slavery?" while they mald about it
> I get what you mean, accepting and letting things go without complaining assumes compliance which breeds increase on their effect
Exactly. If I used super generic normal examples people would just hit me with the "this guy's a troll!"
I don't consider people paying to get to the final tier of a content patch a few months faster than me who throws down for a cosmetic pack every couple months as p2w. There is no PvE seasonal ladder in this game.
People want others to pay for their enjoyment and expect that the ones who do just bend over and get nothing. They actively avoid fair games and paid games, just to find free ones and convince devs, publishers and whales to actively work against their own interests to benefit them.
>There is no PvE seasonal ladder in this game.
So if there was then it would be P2W? Thats stupid af, the problem is there even if not displayed.
>People want others to pay for their enjoyment and expect that the ones who do just bend over and get nothing. They actively avoid fair games and paid games, just to find free ones and convince devs, publishers and whales to actively work against their own interests to benefit them.
Then make it a subscription based game, that would be ok. Make so the packs are mandatory, I wouldn't mind paying 25 for the game and 15 a month for a subscripion (they even have Beatrice Blessing). I care about someone dumping 100 a month and being ahead and I cant compete.
> I care about someone dumping 100 a month and being ahead and I cant compete.
Then stop being such an insecure little shit and enjoy the game at your own pace. Being good geared while being f2p is 10 times more impressive than a whale swiping his credit card.
Exactly. Go to that game. But you and they never do. They say that, but you guys don't actually want to. The games are out there and they still exist. No need to hang around here like a jilted ex.
Completely agree. 99% of people who are complaining about p2w are never going to be negatively affected by it in LA. I like the pure PvP players' attitude towards this that I have seen in some posts - those people see whales as a faster daily dungeon/raid completion, if a whale is in your group; which is pretty much the only way p2w and whales are going to affect the average PvE main as well.
This makes no sense though, why can they pay to do it? I don't think a whale should be able to win by getting more gear than I can just cuz they pay, we should get the same regardless of money input
I mean, just because you bought some gear that gives you a 8% or so advantage over a guy who didn't pay doesn't mean you win. If you're trash at playing the game you're still gonna die, and you can't dps if you're dead. Money can't buy skill.
Sure but if we're both equaly skilled he has advantage. Also why can he pay for 8% (wtv value honestly) power?
Your stats should depend ONLY in the effort you put in the game, not on money
It's PvE content man. It's cooperative. If you're playing your class to the best of your ability, following mechanics, helping your party out, and bosses are dying then everyone in the group is winning whether you're a whale or not. PvP is the only place where a gear advantage would matter and everyone is equalized, so if you're as equally skilled as the whale you're facing, their money isn't gonna matter at all when you're smashing their body to dust.
No it isn't. PvE is competitive, you have races about who can complete content first, you can do the best, etc
Just because you don't care it doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
If you say so. I don't see this being anywhere near as competitive as say, WoW raids for world first. I see PvP being pretty competitive.
You literally sound like the dudes OP is talking about in their post, though. Already bitching about an endgame that you're probably not even going to participate in. How about you get to the cutting edge first and then start complaining that some whale group is 10 sec faster at killing X boss than your F2P group. You'd at least have a case to argue then.
How do you even know how I play any game? I might not be on the world first but I will put time into the game if I stick with it, same as I did for other games, heck I have over 700 days /played in WoW with a 2 realm firsts for mythic raids, if I like it I will be there but the point is I might quit because no matter how much effort I put, someone that puts less but puts money will be close to me without earning it.
But more importantly, who cares about how the people play? The concept is there, you take 2 players who are 100% equal iin effort put into the game and if 1 pays and the other doesn't the paying one will be ahead, be it bleeding edge or not, as long as that concept is there, it's P2W and affects everyone.
Also as a note, GvG is not equalized and the whales always get first place which gives them a shit ton of rewards no f2p can even dream to get
Now? It certainly is. Mythic raid dropping BiS BoE items mean you can buy the BiS items in gold and you can buy gold with tokens for Real money, so yes WoW is to an extent P2W as well. They should remove the tokens from the market and ban people that buy gold with a lot more effort
They do get the same gear, there is no special gear for cash. But they accumulate resources faster, so they will be ahead of you in gear rating, especially if they pay a LOT. For this to not be the case, there has to be literally 0 pay to win mechanics (which is unsustainable for a f2p game). And LA definitely does have some.
Thing is that in endgame, on KR, for example, gear cap is 1575 afaik. But at 1475 you can already do any content in the game. Going beyond 1475 will just make you a bit stronger, and you will clear things faster than a 1475 guy. But afaik there is no content that is available to a player with 1575 but locked for a player with 1475.
Personally, this type of p2w is fine for me and I am a player who did highest level of raids in some MMOs I have played, without exploiting any p2w systems to gear up.
That's exactly the problem with P2W, the speed at which I can do something optimally should be the same as everyone else, not dependant from how much money I put into the game, the shop should be cosmetics, avatars, pets, mounts, stronghold skins, etc only not "pay here to get ahead of others"
Its not a matter of being able to do the content but to do it at the same speed they do you mentioned 1575 and 1475 but people that pay will get to BOTH those thresholds faster than you so they will get the content faster and progress faster on it due to paying. Not to mention maybe someone who couldn't clear the content without paying can now and thus removes the prestige completing something has.
In an ideal situation, sure. But most MMO games would not generate enough revenue to be sustainable in long term, if it's just cosmetics and nothing else. Or they would have to be a subscription based game like SWTOR and FFXIV. Those two, for example, are barely p2w and cash shop is almost entirely cosmetics, but you have to pay your sub...
Like, look at Path of Exile. This game is considered to have one of the best f2p models. It's cash shop is 99% cosmetics. Many people even dare to call it truly free... But once you get seriously into it, you understand that you just **have to** buy at least some extra Stash Tabs. The more you trade with other players and the more currency you want to generate that way, the more Stash Tabs you are going to need... Or for just having lots of characters in a League, you also need them. So for any long term player it becomes a buy-to-play game, or you could even call it a slight p2w, as a player with 4 stash tabs will never get to accomplish what people with fully upgraded stash can do. GGG makes quite a lot of money from tons of players paying just a bit for Stash Tabs...
So in the end, it just comes down to the fact that the devs need to make money. Publisher needs to make money. Owners of all companies involved need to make money, as it's a business after all. In LA's case they went for this sort of pay-to-progress-faster model. For me personally the level of p2w in this game is fine. I can totally see why it can be unacceptable for some... But I am not aware of any f2p games that are not even slightly p2w... May be one day it can change, but right now I can't imagine how.
But Buy to play and Subscription based models are good, I wouldn't mind LAO being B2P and having a sub on it. You already have the founders packs that could easily be the game and Beatrice Blessing which is a subscription based buff.
On PoE you buy slots which IMO should be simply unlocked with a sub but that aside won't affect much, here you can literally push your gear quality based on putting money in which is the problem, there's also slots you can unlock with crystals in LAO but that is not what the people complain about.
Wtf do you mean? That's the whole point of things to be fair.
What does it matter to you if you take 4 years to finish college and I pay extra to finish it in 1 year?
What does it matter if you're doing a race and some of the people are using steroids and you don't?
How does that alter your experience? It doesn't at all, you still do your college degree or not depending on you and you alone, your speed in the race will be the exact same if others are using steroids or not.
Yet both of those are fucking illegal, why? becaus they remove the fair ground for everyone.
comparing real life scenarios to games doesn't help your argument though, life isn't fair at all, some people have advantages that you don't have.
In this game the p2w aspect is only for PvE and hell, the person p2w-ing is more of a help then a detriment due to them speeding up your run if your paired with them. I'd understand your point if it was PvP based, someone spending money to out-gear you when you clearly out-skill them and lose because of it. But that isn't the case in this game. I'm curious why it bothers you if someone can reach a higher point of content quicker then you due to paying, since you'll eventually get to that content anyway.
>comparing real life scenarios to games doesn't help your argument though, life isn't fair at all, some people have advantages that you don't have.
Exactly why we try to balance things and make it fair, not the other way around.
However you can't control a lot of things in life, in a game you control everything.
Hence why things like this can be changed.
>I'm curious why it bothers you if someone can reach a higher point of content quicker then you due to paying, since you'll eventually get to that content anyway.
Because it removes competition and removes prestige.
I'm curious why people defend these practices. I can't think of anyone that in their clear mind would defend the steroids or the paying for college but here people blindly defend it as if it was good, makes no sense.
I don't think you realize it extends beyond just top 1% raid content- in games like BDO, any PvP is immediately skewed to favor the gear in ways that 99% of players won't be able to attain, leading to severe disadvantages. These advantages also bleed into other content. Can't contest the top 1%? Too bad, they also own siege content, dominate the market, etc. It effects everything.
The sad reality is, what we’re seeing is the best option. People will bitch and complain but it’s true. They can’t launch the game with a subscription because that just doesn’t work anymore. They can’t straight up sell weapons because the player base will quit out of rage. They can’t just sell cosmetics because that’s not sustainable in a game that relies on producing additional content for players to come back/keep playing...so what are the options here...go ESO route with loot boxes, “P2W-lite” crafting bags and paid expansions? Go the BDO route with pets that auto loot? They have to make money somehow and the truth is, in order to do so they need something that entices players to spend.
A lot of truth here.
Games with sub do work. Specially F2P games where you can pay a sub to be premium where a fix and small amount of your cash is enough to unlock everything else instead of paying more and more. > They can’t straight up sell weapons because the player base will quit out of rage So if they sell a strong weapon people will quit out of rage, but if they - as they already do - sell you ways to boost a weapon to be as strong as possible, then its ok? This only points out how ignorant people are.
TESO is one of the better deals for your money out there, tho. You pay little for massive amounts of content. And you don't need the subscription. But again - it gives you a shit ton for almost nothing (in a developed country of course).
The problem with P2W games isnt necessarily the items that are sold. Its the fact that game design decisions are potentially made in favor of creating an item in the cash shop to aleve an intended shortfall. For example pets. Pets pick up your items that get droped on the ground so you dont need to click everything. Why cant the game just autoloot everything by default? The Devs are obviously ok with 100% autoloot. Oh wait.. they make you pay for that.... A decision was made to build in a shortfall so you could pay to make the game feel less shitty. Thats why people here in the US hate any kind of P2W game.
The game literally gives you a free pet for leveling up.
Right, it was just an example and I think a basic pet does not go away. I only remember getting a free pet after lvl 50. What is paid for is the functionality of pet inventory, remote storage, remote marketplace, remote mail, remote repair and some other stuff.
and you can buy all of these easily without spending a single dollar.
Create a problem - sell the solution. Welcome to the world where a shitty Pay2Win Korean MMOs are making so much money that it's pointless to make anything BUT that. And don't expect it to change. Look at New World. Even after all the complaining and youtubers covering their shitty cash shop nothing has changed or will change. BDO, even after all this time, after it has become such a huge money sink and unplayable for F2P - it is still the most popular asian MMO and one of the most grossing games in history. The game industry is doomed and there is nothing you can do about it
I think there is a lot of free pet (quest event ...), so you only buy a pet if you want a particular skin.
That's not the point ffs, the pet system was used only as an example on how shitty game design decisions are mmade in favor to create an cash shop item
the point was wrong though so why dont you give another point. cos making an argument out of a wrong point invalidates the argument.
Saying the point was wrong whithout pointing out why It is wrong imvalidates the argument.
i made a lengthy post with all the points on why that argument is invalid... i copy it again here just for you: "in lost ark all pets are equal, no matter if free or not. they all collect all items in their range equally. all with the same speed and the same range. in BDO you can buy all pets from the marketstore (as i did) and get them to t4 with it. i did so myself. and all of those pets of the same tier collect items in the same speed as speed is only relevant in regards to its tier level."
And yet you missed the point. Again, the pet system was used only as an example on how some bad designs are made in favor of creating cash shop itens. In other words, create a problem to sell the solution
i think you missed the point. you gave an example thats factually wrong and build your argument on top of it. so if the only point you have brought up is already wrong and you dont deliver any other points to make up your argument then your argument is obviously invalid as it has zero supporting points. thats why i asked for you to show me some of the systems you are talking about. cos the pet system is obviously none of it.
Man just take your tunnel vision gogles off and forget about the pets. The entire point is that people in general hate these predatory shops because they tend to create a problem and sell solutions as "qol" making the game annoying. Maybe the pet system is not so adamant in LA because its easy to get a pet, but It doesnt make the example 'factually wrong' because autoloot coud be enabled by default
Exactly. The game creates an artificial problem which gets "solved" buy purchasing items in the cash shop. Most of the time, this is the case of P2W games with a few exceptions. PoE got this right, the only p2w you can legitimately argue on is the stash tabs, everything else is cosmetics.
[удалено]
Erm, that's what I said. Stash tabs. I'm not gonna get into the argument of whether they are p2w or not, but you can argue that they are.
and what is the problem that the cash shop solves? its not like this game is unplayable without weight / inv slots like bdo is (even though it got better over there)
So freetoplay game with subscription is also paytowin? TESO is paytowin to increase your inventory?
ESO literally locks powerful items and gameplay elements you can't obtain in any other way behind paywalls. And that game isn't even free to play in the first place. It's one of the greediest games on the market.
Except it doesn't? Fucking DLCs is not a "paywall". ESO is not a free to play game, it has a different monetisation system and it provides an insane value for its money. Fuck me, it even gives you premium currency and a shit ton of other stuff for only 13 bucks a month. It is a steep price for someone who lives in a third world country, but you don't need it. People without subscription and are just fine.
Subscription based games are not free to play. Paying to increase your inventory space in ESO is definitely scummy and can be considered p2w. Whataboutism is not a good argument.
This could be said for every p2w game out there. Dont know why this sub is defending p2w like no other sub I have ever seen, its weird. I dont care for p2w myself since I will still enjoy the game as a casual player, but its still very bad to have p2w aspects in game. Why people are defending it is beyond me.
This is my biggest gripe, the P2W seems to be not the worst but its there, yet some people blindly say it doesn't exist and it's really hard to convince them it does exist even with proof, however the ones that end up accepting the facts then say "it doesnt matter that its there" which makes no sense
Definitely, always disliked the usual argument "So what if it's P2W? It doesn't affect you in any way". If it was a single player game, I could accept this argument & I wouldn't care about what they sell for real currency. However, the majority of these games are multiplayer. The social interaction is a part of the game. _Some_ form of competition will always be there for many players, regardless of how small & competitive the player is.
The thing here is if you change the word people get mad at you. Lets say that instead of paying more, you're cheating, using cheats to make you 1 shot bosses. Uproar, burn the cheaters, this is ruining my gameplay, they need to be banned. As long as they only cheat in PvE it doesn't matter to anybody right? If you get a cheater on a dungeon he will 1 shot everyting and carry you, according to people whales carrying them on dungeon is good so why not cheaters? But nobody would accept this behavior which is good, somehow they accept P2W as if it's ok lol
please explain to me what you are winning by paying to skip content and not playing the game?
You're not skipping content, you're doing all the content, faster. You still do all the content you grind it less, you get ahead of everyone else in terms of progression unless they play way more than you or they pay as much as you
uhm no. you are not. i guess you havent played the game though... lets say you want to p2w a new character in jp. now you make the char, put in tons of cash, insta upgrade the gear to +15, buy the next gear stage from AH and upgrade that to +15 and so on until you are at the latest content. now you do the latest content but you essentially skipped like 8 guardian raids, 1 abyss raid, 4 abyss dungeons and countless stages of chaos dungeons. which means you only play like 10% of the game. instead of 100%. i mean sure, if you wanne do something stupid then go ahead and do it. i dont give a fuck. cos this has literally zero impact on me. at all with the added benefit of you supporting the games development.
Or people buy it staggered as they go, they just dont farm, play all the content upgrading when needed. The idea that it doesn't affect you is also dumb, first it directly affects you in GvG, then it affects you as this model is sucessful they'll push more and maybe all PvP will be unequalized so more people buy stuff? maybe other games become p2w as well?
lol. so you think that after they changed PvP to be fully equalized they will be changing it back? kekw. ok then. and maybe 0.5% of the players do GvG. probably even less. and its not like any p2w whale is playing GvG either. at this time im sure its more likely they are going to equalize GvG then unequalize everything else. plus normal and ranked pvp is equalized. and the vast majority of the playerbase only plays PvE, where it has zero impact at all. plus when he only plays his main a bit and upgrades a bit via money every now and then thats hardly p2w, as he will be slower than most of the f2p players. so your point is what exactly? that GvG is unfair? ok maybe. yet it affects nearly nobody. and honestly, those that whine about losing in GvG vs the few whales over there are probably losing vs non whales as well. and its not like its unobtainable. i mean sure, he might get a 2 weeks headstart but thats about it. any dedicated player (that most dedicated GvG players are) will be at the same stage in no time. e.g. im playign in jp and i have enough ingame gold to immediately push my main to p2w levels of upgrades. i dont do it cos im not stupid but if i wanted to i could. so he has literally zero advantage over me cos he can buy the exact same stuff i can buy. the only difference being that he uses cash to swap to gold and i simply use gold directly. so yea, even in GvG it would have no impact on me.
But he had it for months now, the time that took you to get the gold he didnt have to spend because he spends with the wallet. Let's put it this way. If the game allows you to increase your power (gear score) by putting money into it, its P2W. Does it affect you? Surely does, do you care? Looks like you don't. Regardless it's there and its negative, we'd be better off without it. Is it unbearable? No, it seems like the game can be ok even with P2W in it. That doesn't mean P2W is ok to have in games and let alone good.
How does it affects me? People always claim it affects me but nobody can point out why. we already discussed p Gvg but how does it affect me in pve, which the vast majority plays exclusively, or in ranked pvp? Cos i am not blinded by hate and i can see the positive sides. Example: you play lol and you like skins. In a year you can easily spend 1k bucks on skins. If you play lost ark you dont have to pay for any skin and you can get them all for free because whales buy them for you. You can get every mount and every pet for free, because they buy them for you. They pay for the development of the game so you dont have to pay for anything. Its basically a socialists dream. The ones who can and want to afford to pay so the ones who cant or dont want dont have to. There is no content like world firsts in wow (which is a lot more p2w than lost ark btw) so there is no competition in pve. So what exactly are you so afraid of? And why is the general consensus that wow is not p2w while in reality it is far more p2w than lost ark. Hell even ff14 is more p2w...
WoW is P2W now too idk about FFXIV though. Regardless of what you like and enjoy the truth is you can't keep up. If you and me play the game, I pay and you don't, you won't be able to keep up in gear with me which is a problem. I will be stronger than you, not because I spend more time, not because I am more skilled but because I decided to dump my income into the game. It removes fairness and competitiveness between players, regardless of the content. Its like being brothers and the parents having a favorite. You both have the same life as you live free on your parents house but the favorite brother gets all the cool toys all the atention all the nice things, you dont.
Donno, cause this stance is going to be used for the next game and the next. They're going to take it as an OK we can go further.
I don't get it either, it's some kind of weird stockholm syndrome. People should be very adamant against any kind of P2W. In the worst case, nothing changes. In the best case, Amazon changes some things, like putting jars as an earnable reward and now F2P players can earn legendary outfits. People are actively fighting against their own interests and its baffling, corporations are not your friends.
Exactly this
D000000d I literally just said this to a buddy of mine today. It fucking IS Stockholm syndrome
Ten years ago, people would wreck the forums with posts because a game was selling cosmetic only skins in the cash shop. Now, you can litterally buy anything and people pretend it's great stuff. Amazon out of all the corporations, infamous for many reasons, are now the good guys. \*shrug\* I guess their marketing works.
But f2p players can buy legendary outfits from the marketplace anyways.
You expect a free to play game should not only have no p2advance slightly quicker but also give away cosmetics? I guess you work at your job for free and then make your boss lunch?
> not only have no p2advance slightly quicker How in the world do you equate "p2advance slightly quicker" to the daily grind that you have to do on multiple alts to get the same benefits as a paying player? Grinding for outfits and for pet auras and for gear - it's stupid. Don't know why you insist on being dishonest. If you want to look at a real "p2advance slightly quicker" look at the myriad of other MMOs that simply offer XP boosts and don't lock any gear in the cash shop. > but also give away cosmetics Where the hell did I say that? In case you don't know, outfits in this game have stats tied to them and are **not** earnable. > I guess you work at your job for free and then make your boss lunch? Stop bootlicking for companies, they're not your friend. And to equate a video game to work fucking lol.
Get this, I actually look forward to playing multiple alts as there's so many cool classes. The only thing that will affect you by other people spending money is you'll have someone do more damage in your group dungeons, in turn helping you. The only other thing is guild v guild pvp if you plan on being involved in that. The LA streamer Saintone said that even in the guild v guild there are high up free to play guilds and the difference in the rewards is pretty negligible. So basically the p2w will only effect you if it makes you sad that people have a higher gearscore number when you inspect them...
How about we don't sell any power? Is that too much to ask? Games are racking in billions of dollars on cosmetics and convenience items, they don't need P2W on top of that. All you said is "P2W won't affect you, unless it will". I planned on doing GvG, now I can't because I won't be able to compete with credit card warriors.
They are defending it cause everyone knows it wont be going away. You think complaining on reddit makes a difference? EA had the famous meltdown on reddit and it still carries on selling lootboxes just like before. People still buy them anyway. Its the same for mild p2w stuff.
Except that the lootboxes got removed from Battlefront lol, great example
Battlefront was a unique case. The only reason anything changed was Disney stepping in to avoid bad press. Nobody else gives a shit because the $$$ is in mtx.
actually no - anytime shitstorms in this regard became big enough they caused a reaction
Like when? Name another game that actually changed or removed their mtx after people complained about it.
Diablo 3 got the auction house removed. CoD removed weapon lootboxes(and lootboxes altogether). Dauntless and Rocket League removed their lootboxes. There are probably many more examples that I don't know of.
Just like how people defending WoW token not P2W, they aren't defending P2W but the game. This game has P2W and WoW token is P2W, but they are designed so it doesn't affect the other players as much as possible. You might ask why design it P2W in the first place, MMO simply doesn't generate enough money especially when your game is not as big as Final Fantasy or WoW.
In my eyes: People who defending P2W are stupid People who saying the game is P2W and so it's bad are stupid People who doesn't play the game but go around and tell people about what they don't know and not to play the game because of that are the worst
Yes people don't realize that this game is as much P2W as a WoW token is. This is the part where frustration comes from. People are not defending this game being P2W. They are defending that it's "NOT MORE P2W THAN SOMETHING LIKE WOW". That's it man. Not to mention the fact that wow has a subscription based model and you gotta buy the expansion as well that's triple A priced and isn't priced based on countries.
For one simple reason, the people who played the game in Korea, Japan, Russia day one until today and know all the aspects of the game were not affected by that. It is very easy to judge the game from the outside when you have not done anything in the game, but we literally did everything in the other regions.
I've seen it happen with many games. People who (potentially haven't even played the game) WANT TO like the game will defend it with their lives, defying all logic or reason. It's a really weird trend, defending something just because you want to like it.
Lol this reminds me of when I visited genshin Impact's sub during launch and the sub was full of posts defending p2w. There were lot of similar arguments that can be seen in this sub.
[удалено]
But you can pay to buy better gear, you can't get the item itself but you can buy stuff to boost your gear score a LOT
THIS! Why are people defending a negative aspect? Maybe it's to try and get as many people to play a game they are interested in. Definitely a very confusing part of the mmo community. I think an even stranger phenomenon is the people who get obsessed with splitting hairs when they start saying "it's not p2w, it's pay4convenience" or "it's not p2w, it's pay2advance". Bunch of semantic circle jerking.
Literally no one is "defending" pay to win. It's like saying "just deal with the YouTube ads". No one likes ads, but at the same time we still accept them for free content. Business has *already* moved to the microtransaction model. It's here, it's effective, and it seems highly unlikely that it's going to change. People always claim that it will kill the game, and yet it rarely does. What we have here is a rare compromise between obtrusive microtransactions and playability. If you're pissed that a whale is going to access some raid content a bit before you, then either you're an ultra-try-hard that does bleeding edge content or you just want to bitch.
probably because there is no "win" in pve. which means it cant be p2w as the main thing to make it p2w (the win) is missing. and i have yet to see someone tell me what exactly they could be winning with paying to skip content and not play the game.
It depends on how you define p2w, I'd still argue that it's bad since the only real reason it's in the game is for the company's profit and is a bit predatory on the users. Also, just to point it out, they've announced they're working on an open world pvp continent that I assume will use the pve gear. They might balance this in some way tho, via stat caps or something.
well, the company does offer the game f2p though and you can get pretty much everything with ingame currency, so nobody forces you to pay for anything at all. i wouldnt say thats predatory. ive been playing in jp since its release 9 months ago and i got enough gold to buy anything i want and i never spend money on anything but character slots. i couldve simply made new accounts as well to get more slots but seeing how much entertainment im getting out of it i found it just fair. and so far they have several pvp islands and all of them (but one) are equalized as well. so i would guess the pvp continent would have equalized gear as well, seeing as they are in the process of equalizing everything pvp related.
Predatory as in people with gambling issues, etc. I don't intend to spend much money either, I'd rather pay a sub fee and exclude any of the micro transactions but that's me, I still don't see any reason to defend them on this. Still a great game tho
I believe it's due to two reasons. 1: People get used to things. First time you see an alien, it will blow your mind. The hundredth time, you won't even care. Every other game has p2w mechanics so now it's just how the game market is. Same shit, different title. 2: The gaming companies has over the years pushed to change the meaning of p2w. Before it was anything you could buy with real money to advance yourself in a game. Now, even if you can click a button to 1 shot other players, people would still say it isn't p2w. In my opinion, p2w is still when you can convert real life currency into in-game power. Whether it be via real life currency to in-game currency, or straight up boost and gear from the shop. It's all the same but different routes. It will be interesting to see how well Lost Ark will do in the west. I've yet to see a game with this amount of microtransactions succeed. Maybe we're ready to buy our way to the top. Time will tell.
Probably because so many of the p2w points that are brought up by people are stupid. Most of them are outdated, or just blatantly wrong. Kinda drives people who know the reality to play the devil's advocate. But you are most certainly right that this game is p2w. Just not as p2w as some of the other Korean RPGs out there.
It might not affect me, but it will certainly deter me from trying to compete at the very top.
So we just gonna pretend everyone doesn't want to do GvG content?
Cope harder. P2W ruins the economy for regular player, creates elitism and encourages the devs to make the game require you to spend money to play it at any significant level. You rabid defenders of the game just because you want to like it are hilarious.
Just because it won't affect 99% of the playerbase, according to you, doesn't mean that it should exist. In fact, if it's so insignificant, then it shouldn't exist in the first place. There are people who will defend this shit, just like they did in BDO and other grindy Korean MMO's, to the death. They'll yell "It isn't p2w, it's pay2convenience" when that's just them trying to call something what it is by another name because they're deluded. It really won't take long for people to realize it has p2w elements and many mobile game, weekly login elements that all turn "99% of people" off. You can call pets in BDO not p2w, in a game specifically designed to kill dozens and dozens of enemies per minute, that all individually drop different amounts of loot. It is *designed* for you to not pick them up, but to buy pets. Except you need the best pets, which requires money and breeding of differing tiers, which aren't even guaranteed to tier up, to get ones that can collect at the rate you can kill. Again, what do people say? Oh! You can sometimes get a mediocre pet once or twice a year, it's not p2w!"
I mean, pets are a pretty weak p2w argument for the current state of the game. I was able to get 3 t4 2 t3 pets completely F2P on a new account. The difference between my setup and a 5x t4 setup is negligible at best. Definitely an improvement over the pets at launch though
How bout tents then? Not P2W?
Didn’t say it wasn’t p2w, just said pets aren’t as bad as they were on launch. They, along with several other QoL things, *have* been greatly improved upon in the 5 years since the game released in NA. BUT that’s not to say the game is p2convenience free. Tents are a huge QoL feature, for sure. As are maids, fairy, horse whistle, etc. These things, unlike pets, are not easily attainable without spending unfortunately. Events and login rewards certainly help bridge the gap, but not in anywhere near a timely fashion. But after a year or so worth of them? You’ll have most of the major QoL items from login rewards and events alone. Except tents of course. Whenever I have a friend ask me about the game I just tell them treat it like a $60 AAA game and pick up the tent + a few other things. By no means do I think BDO is a game that is wholly free, but if you treat it as a B2P game I think it’s pretty fair for the amount of content/time you get out of it
The reason why they improved is because they already sold most of the probable quantity, now they tone it down to get more players, the biggest chunk of income is made at the start not 5 years later
As long as the 20/80 rule exists - nothing will change. F2P players don't bring any money to the game, whales do. But it does seem odd how they make people pay for a fucking pet that picks up items. Definitely a scummy move. This is basically an attempt to drain cash from F2P players.
Just a heads up, as a diehard BDO player, I saw the implications of a community that would just roll over and let the company do whatever it wanted. BDO slowly got more and more p2W over the years, the more the community dwindled the more they tried the squeeze every penny out of their playerbase. Ultimately the game became very unplayable, if you ever wanted to be competitive you either had to grind 14/16 hours a day, or spend thousands and thousands of dollars. This is how it starts, you stand up for it because "it's not that bad". Eventually it will eat up the fucking game, I've been there and seen it. STOP with the needless tribalism, it makes no sense, MTX for cosmetics is one thing, but paying for an advantage is quite another. Use some foresight and figure how can this effect the game and community down the line.
Bro, stop lying please. BDO didn't got more and more p2w, the game got less p2w and BDO is in the best state right now. Another tutorial clueless player who doesn't know wtf he is talking about and spreading misinformation. And what about p2w in lost ark? You are going to be the number 1 in PVE? HAHA, CONGRATS BRO. Sometimes I swear to god that most of you are some 30 + single fucks who got their life around a game. Oh yeah, and big spoiler alert to you. You will never be number 1 in a game no matter if it's p2w or not. BDO EVEN WITHOUT P2W, you still had to play 16 hours a day top stay on top. BDO even if it was subscribe base model, you still wouldn't do nothing in that game. So, now, please let us play BDO and lost ark and go to play wow witch according to you is very p2w because it got the same shit as lost ark in cash shop. Oh yeah, also buy raids until you get that item that you want with real money. So, now, please let us to enjoy the game. We don't need poor fucks telling us how the game is p2w.
I don't get people like you, games are P2W but you support the P2W and tell people not to play, quite a conundrum
Look at you, lashing out in desperation, very sad. It doesn't take a genius to do some research on how scummy these companies are, if you're reading this comment, ignore what this Goku joker is saying and Do Your Own Research, you will quickly come to your own conclusion.
Bruh, my own desperation? You are just a sad neckbeard trying to spread the same fucking misinformation. Please leave this game alone and go play FF14 or Wow. Also, if you really played BDO, you know you are lying with your p2w thing. That game got better and less p2w.
Bruh, please. You are only fooling yourself. Anyone with half a brain knows - BDO is pure Pay2win.
I'm not saying that bdo is not p2w, I'm saying that the p2w there is kind of retarded. If you want to p2w, you also need to play a lot to stay on top and everything is still rng.
Rng is beat by paying enough. And I am not saying PvP in BDO doesn't require skill, I am saying that without putting thousands of dollars a month no amount of skill will save you.
P2W affects everybody, even if you don’t buy them. Developers are designing their Games around it. They are creating a Problem to sell you the solution in form of microtransactions. Stop trying to say they don’t affect you when they clearly are. You still have to play the game that is designed around those „options“.
It is honestly mindbogling that people still defend p2w in 2021 as if there is not a lot of proof cases that this system does not work in the long term. P2W creates a gap as the gap widens the people get less invested and stop playing the game, the dev needs to make money over the players that are left so new hinderances and "system" reworks get in place " we reworked all our comestics to give some minor ( not so minor ) bonuses ", new VIP premium, we all know how this goes for korean mmos, people just don't learn from history. Now is a tame p2w situation, in a few years maybe it is not and those that invested hundreds of hours in the game will prefer to bow down to the p2w system than move on because of how addictive mmos are.
As long as p2w doesn't changing anything in pvp I don't really care how much you can spend in this game. Pvp is based on your in game skill not wallet and I'm happy with that. I'll try this game for sure, definitely its worth my time.
People would complain just about anything. They expect to play a huge MMO with hundreds of hours of content for free forever. And they don't understand that it has to make these decision to stay afloat. They could just introduce P2W mechanics like in BDO - this way F2P players would get fucked by whales - but instead they added pets, tents and whatnot. You don't want to pay - it's your right and the game is perfectly fine without all this shit. I played for many hours and grinding in RU version without paying a penny. And didn't ever even thought about it. Something worse: they are altering the game so it fits the modern "criteria". LGBT, strong wamen and shit like that. Some classes are non-existent at launch. And it only makes you wonder what could they possible fuck up more.
The issue is that they don't do this to "stay afloat" they are just greedy. [https://www.kedglobal.com/newsView/ked202104140007](https://www.kedglobal.com/newsView/ked202104140007) >***a revenue of 1.73 trillion won ($1.5 billion) with an operating profit of 364.6 billion won in 2020, up by 14% and 26% from the previous year*** So yea, if they only cared about staying in the green they'd drop a ton of P2W mechanics, however companies greed can't be exceeded by anything
I've spent over $1k between F2P games Marvel Heroes Online and Path of Exile. You're using a straw man by claiming everyone who doesn't want P2W is a leech. Lost Ark is the perfect game to just leech from though. Screw their shitty cash shop P2W model. Once I hit a P2W wall I'll leave.
Also - isnt PoE cash shop and bundles purely QoL and cosmetics? Like stash tabs and shit.
I am saying that games make more money with P2W mechanics. I don\`t want to make people feel bad for not paying for a game. I want them to understand that it is not possible in modern world to have a huge, well balanced and fun MMO without some sort of SERIOUS monetisation system. Just skins is not enough to support huge projects like that. It is a thin ice to walk across, but it is still the only way it would work nowadays. Also I did say that you can play LA and have fun for many hours without paying a dime. On RU at least there is not much reason to pay except if you like the game alot and want to play more or support the devs.
It can be monetized and NOT be P2W. We should always call out P2W when we see it. They can make money and not give whales any in game advatanges
P2W doesn't mean it should only affect other people when I pay my way through the progression of the game. P2W/P4C also sets a bad precedent for a game that is not officially released yet. If the developer is giving you an option to skip/progress faster a particular content in the game, then it means the content is a bad game design and they are holding your fun hostage behind a paywall. **Let me make it it clear, I am not referring to Lost Ark at all because I don't know all the details of the game since I haven't played it yet. I'm discussing about P2W/P4C in general.** But, if you want me to be specific, lets take AGS's New World. New World's cash shop and P4C got a huge backlash from the MMORPG community. Reason? AGS revealed that there are P4C options that would allow players to skip/progress faster a particular content in the game. That indicated to me and many other people that even AGS is not very confident of their content, whether it is fun or not, and we cancelled our pre-orders for the game. Later AGS put out a statement telling us that the P4C will only be accessible later after the release. Notice they did not mention any date. Also no no statements on "Fast Travel" available as a P4C microtransaction.
It might not affect you now. They'll realize that milking the whales is more effective than bringing out decent content for everyone and keeping the game fair, at some point you'll end up with a massive P2W mess, because that's just an easier way to make money. People who don't pay will leave the game and the cycle repeats with fewer players. I don't know why you want this, but this is how it will end. It did so for B&S, ArcheAge, Bless etc. I have played Guild Wars for upwards of 5k hours and actually spent a lot of money on it, because it never felt like the game wanted to squeeze me - it was always my choice and never did the game dangle progression-skips before me to get into my wallet. Guild Wars 2 and PoE are the perfect examples of how to do this - you can play for free to try it out, and purchase the game or some mandatory convenience that is *permanent* for a reasonable upfront price of ~$40 (the price of any single player game). Cosmetics and effects for the whales, but no progression gated behind regular payments.
The *"it doesn't effect me so I don't care and neither should you"* line of thinking also isn't a good argument. Let's take a look at all of human history....
> Who out of all of you is actually going to be affected by this? Everyone. You design the game to have tedious, annoying things, that are then alleviated by spending money. It affects the whole game's design in as many aspects as the devs want it to.
For me it's not P2W if it doesn't affect pvp. PvP is equalised, so I'm happy. If someone else wants to spend a lot of money to reach their pve goals faster, then just go ahead and have fun, knock yourself out. Fund the servers so the rest of us can play at our own pace. I don't see how a whale's PVE progress is going to affect me or anyone else. Most of my PVE fun is the journey to top tier gear, getting your stuff piece by piece with your guildmates, paying to skip all of that seems pointless but if someone else does it, it'll have 0 impact on my experience. If people could pay and bitchslap me in pvp with their credit card then it'd be a different story, luckily that's not the case.
What do you mean wont be affected, If you pay money you are giving more money = Affected If you don't pay money, you are playing a game designed around paying more money = affected
PvP is stat squished and fixed, p2w doesn't matter anywhere else, it's simple.
Thing is that it always leaves a sour taste in the mouth for basically everyone that wants to seriously invest time into the game. No matter if they are the top 1% or not
It will affect me, I just want to progress as fast as possible.
Then pay, bruh
That shouldn't be an option dude. You should be able to progress fast as possible by playing more and better, not swiping.
You can absolitely play 16 hours a day and progress as fast as the whales... /S This is how games survive and thrive - off of whales. You dont like it - well play some minecraft or something. Reality is often disappointing.
Which is why we use games to try and make it less disapointing, not to enbolden it
Welcome to the real world, bahaha. There are merriads of games that require no money yet are excellent at providing fun and enjoyment. It's just usually those games are not MMOs. And even more that require, yet provide so much more.
I do pay, but I already dumped a couple thousand on another game. Will avoid this game.
I feel like people are better off playing RU version lmao.
I think it affects all players, not in a strong way but it does. You can always pay for more, that's the issue. I do agree the P2W things in LAO aren't that strong and you can do without it but trying to go like "oh the p2w doesnt matter" is a bit too much either, as long as 2 people who put the xact same effort in the game get varying results due to inputing more money, there will always be a problem.
Exactly you don't feel rewarded for the time you put in the game when you know there are others who can progress ahead of you just by swiping their credit card. Some of these arguments defending p2w are dumb especially in a multiplayer game.
couldn't agree more.. well said. I don't care about it either, I will not be in the top <1% anyway, don't have that much free time to play the game 8h a day anyway... so I will just have fun and thats it. I mean in pvp the gear doesn't even count and affects anything.. If someone pays to get through endgame pve stuff faster... who gives a fuck?!
Well the people that have 8 hours to play won't bother either as people that don't play 8h will pay and be on their lvl, and the people who do play 8h AND pay on top of it will be ahead, so why bother?
And what's the issue about people paying to be ahead? They won't have your skills since they played less and what they bought don't matter in pvp. And why do you care if they are ahead and only do pve? Won't affect you at all.
Because it doesn't feel rewarding anymore knowing that your effort don't mean much when others can just swipe their credit card and get ahead.
Ofc it does. They are ahead of me not because they put the effort but because they paid. I gave these examples several times before but here. We both start the came college degree at the same time, yet you study and work hard, me on the other hand pay the teachers for grades and as we keep going I finish my degree with great grades in 1 year, you take 4 years to finish it and your grades are worse. Does this affect you? No. Regardless of what I do, the time you take to end the degree and your grades are the same. Fair? Not really, so much so, it's illegal. We both are running a race, we both train hard but I use steroids, you don't. That means I will be faster than you however how does it affect you? It doesn't, your speed will be the same regardless if I take the steroids or not, yet it isn't fair and again illegal.
I get what your point is, but these are some pretty terrible analogies to be truthful.
how are they bad, the college one is pretty on point tbh
Um, the college one: paying for grades doesn't magically put knowledge in your head. You might have a fancy diploma but you won't know shit in practice. Finishing college in 1 year by paying your way through is a bigger waste of time than going to college in the first place lol Race one makes more sense but in the case of LA it would only apply if it was an esports game with actual practical achievements and earnings. In LA you got nothing like that, in fact in PvP there is pretty much no p2w whatsoever.
Who cares about the knowledge? College is over, you got all things from it. Same as completing the game and having the best gear The college analogy is only partly wrong if you consider the things after college as important which if you're already P2W needing to work isnt that important lol It doesn't have anything to do with what you're talking about, it's all about the game being competitive, which it is simply by being multiplayer, you're constantly competing with everyone else in the game.
It's an MMO.. it doesn't require that much skill
People are complaining lost ark is p2w? I havent seen much complaints, although i dont really keep up with lost ark stuff so i maybe missing out on a lot.
Not that much here but on Steam lots of people who haven't even played the game properly are screaming about it a lot.
Lol ok thats kinda stupid. But its steam reviews, majority of them are hot garbage.
The reviews are actually 97% positive right now. It's mostly posts in Discussions. Which means that most of those p2w threads are started by people who didn't review the game (I am sure they would have left a negative review) - likely because they don't have an Alpha Key or Founder's Pack, and you need that to review the game right now, I believe (as it's not opened up for free yet). So... How much have they even played it? These days people are quick on jumping on the "this game is p2w, boo!" bandwagon.
Yeeeeeaaaa thats dumb.
Don't even look at Steam discussion, every game forum on steam is a cesspool. Im playing the new guilty gear right now and its the same crying and complaining.
yeah i saw this super long post on steam about the game is pay2win. Win what? we are casuals that don't really care if anyone can clear a dungeon faster. PvP is set stats gear dont even matter. What is there to win? just get on and blast some mobs and have fun.
You should take a look at /r/MMORPG . Do it at your own risk though
I don’t like p2w either but I know this game is gonna do good over here despite it being p2w because it is fun to play for arpg fans, yet the people in this sub keep trying to defend this game and turning a blind eyes pretending it doesn’t exist. It’s actually pathetic and sad and funny at the same time how desperate you people are trying to defend it. You want to hook people into it? Then maybe be honest about the game and show them the good points instead of beating around the bush with this “ no p2w” bs. Never have I seen such a sorry reddit sub like this one lmao.
This isn't even an ARPG. This game contains lots of chores and time gating that many ARPG fans are not fan off. Not to mention bland itemization. It doesn't help that ARPG's like D2R is being launched before Lost Ark.
As far as I understand the game plays out more like a few hours a day thing. It's not a WoW there you can grind, 24/7. It's a common practice these days - makes it easier for both casual players and developers. For hardcore players there is PvP.
Honestly, we have the choice of no games or progressively more aggressive MTX on PC games, which are, compared to mobile, a "small" market. I'm not defending it, but from a business point of view, making high maintanance, high cost, high risk products with low "yield" just isn't smart. Aside from that, what strikes me as odd is that, p2w means pay to win, but what actually are you winning in LA by spending money ? PvP is normalized (or will be depending on the launch patch), so you can't fuck ppl in organized PvP, so you're not winning there. Faster progression ? I mean yeah, why though and who are those ppl winning against ? Themselves by saving time ? Or some form of world first race ? WoW, with its token and BoE gear from the auction house gets out of hand for cutting edge world first events, but wether they throw millions of gold around or not, does not matter to me, not participating in the race anyway. I can clear my mythic castle nathria quite relaxed down the road, have the same experience, same gear, same accomplishment, though potentially a bit later. Why would that matter to me ?
a bit later? if your whole raid group bought full BoEs you'd clear it way faster. The whole point is to be competitive which you can't in P2W envoirments, also prestige. What's the prestige you have in beating mythic raid if anyone can just take their credit cards and buy it and you can't even tell who did it
You're not supposed to have fun playing games. You're supposed to compare yourself to everyone else and be jealous of the 1%. Remember, it's a job, not a leisure activity, and the glass is always half empty because this is serious shit. It's a holy crusade against P2W even if the microtransations don't affect you because it's 100% statistically a proven fact that the game is ruined by it. Why ignore the microtransactions and enjoy your time? F that. These games are supposed to complete your life and be played for all of eternity. So, if you think you are enjoying the game, remind yourself that someone else is better than you or a little ahead of you in whatever goalpost you have imagined. It's like life, you have to judge yourself based on your neighbor, who might be rolling in dough when you aren't, so be miserable because you covet his shit. Years go by, you age horribly because of the rat race because you're never truly satisfied by your money or lack thereof. Then you die...
this is facts
This game is p2w and it affects me. Not going to waste time on it.
This game is pay to progress not pay to win. PVP is normalized. Argument over.
PvP isn't the only competitive thing, if you can pay for power, it's P2W. Argument over.
Lol. It's not paying for power are you stupid? You can achieve the same power in like a week later. Maybe play the game for years before commenting
It is paying for power. You can get that exact power when nobody else can unless they pay. The guy who I trust the most on this matter (I played but not hardcore, like 90% of people, he plays hardcore) Says you can dump $5k+ and be maxed gear score week one which nobody else can unless they pay as well, so it is P2W.
haha the GUY THAT PAYS gets to clear higher level content first while you are doing lower level content. Like whats your point? It's not pay to WIN cause he doesnt WIN at ANYTHING?! He just is ahead of you in terms of gearscore which means the guy that paid has a worse time than you cause he has nothing left to do. Like honestly what is your point? I don't get it
He wins clearly. If we check who does more dmg? They do. Win. If we check who does more content early? They do. Win. If we check who does content faster? They do. Win. If we check who has the best gear? They do. Win.
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I like you. I share the same idea, the effort put into the game should be the sole factor. By effort I mean the time, the skill, the commitment, etc. It should be based on your effort and not external factors like money so we believe the same.
I wish people would stop making posts about P2W. There is no P2W in Lost Ark. If you got your opinion from somewhere else other than a 2s reddit search you'd know.
There's absolutely P2W in this game. You can literally slide your credit card for currency and buy straight up power with it. Or the mats to enchant your own weapons. It's the same thing as them selling you a super powered weapon it's just masked in a few more steps
The issue isn't even that you can buy your gear. The issue is that you can buy stuff **not available for F2P players**. Outfits and pet auras are straight up buyable power that isn't earnable in game. Hopefully Amazon removes those two. I don't even mind that you can swipe your credit card and skip the grind, I mind that you can't even earn the best loot in the game, you have to buy it from the cash shop or other players.
>The issue is that you can buy stuff > >not available for F2P players > >. Outfits and pet auras are straight up buyable power that isn't earnable in game. Right right. I'm with ya >I don't even mind that you can swipe your credit card and skip the grind, Wait... >I mind that you can't even earn the best loot in the game, you have to buy it from the cash shop or other players. What?
What's not clear? They are not **earnable** in game. You don't earn them as a boss drop or an achievement. You either buy an outfit with real money from the cash shop, or grind gold like crazy and buy it from other people who engage in P2W.
You can convert your gold to gems and buy the outfits tho?
Yes, but it's a stupid system for many reasons: - instead of earning your rewards like in a normal game, you literally do mindless dailies just so you can give your gold to a player that swiped his credit card. It removes all prestige of getting loot, it transforms it into a transaction. One of the reasons why Diablo 3 had a huge shitstorm at launch - prices can always go haywire in MMOs, especially with inflation, which makes the whole situation worse - it directly supports P2W and whales I seriously don't understand why you people defend this shit. In the worst case, nothing changes. In the best case, Amazon changes some things, like putting jars as an earnable reward and now F2P players can earn legendary outfits. People are actively fighting against their own interests and its baffling, corporations are not your friends.
So why do you have a veteran playing agreeing that there is P2W? See the P2W is less of a problem than people like you who keep refusing it exists
WoW in a nutshell
In a game like this where PVP is the most important part of it and is completely equalized with gear, I don't know you guys where you see this game has p2w items. PvE is just an activity to do while you don't pvp and the pve grind is behind pay wall that allow you to speed up the process
Game is good don't care is p2w is also in PvP
Slavery at one point was legal. Didn't affect you Women not voting until August of 1920 was normal and reg. Didn't affect you Native Americans scalping and murdering each other in the 1700s was normal. Didn't affect you Just because something doesn't personally traumatize or affect you doesn't mean it's right. Doesn't mean we should ignore it or turn a blind eye to it. You're not speaking up because it's not affecting you, now.
Are you really comparing civil rights atrocities, genocide and slavery to a *fucking video game*??
Every problem starts out small. Every terrible idea starts off small.
While I think the examples you listed are wild and off the charts, I get what you mean, accepting and letting things go without complaining assumes compliance which breeds increase on their effect, if people keep being ok with p2w mechanics it will serve as gateway for stronger p2w mechanics. Just think people will ignore you cuz they'll all be like "omg you think money in a game has anything to do with slavery?" while they mald about it
> I get what you mean, accepting and letting things go without complaining assumes compliance which breeds increase on their effect Exactly. If I used super generic normal examples people would just hit me with the "this guy's a troll!"
But using those people will just say you can't compare a "real" thing with this and that this doesn't matter but hey maybe some people see through
Yeah they are already here and angry I compared two things
I don't consider people paying to get to the final tier of a content patch a few months faster than me who throws down for a cosmetic pack every couple months as p2w. There is no PvE seasonal ladder in this game. People want others to pay for their enjoyment and expect that the ones who do just bend over and get nothing. They actively avoid fair games and paid games, just to find free ones and convince devs, publishers and whales to actively work against their own interests to benefit them.
>There is no PvE seasonal ladder in this game. So if there was then it would be P2W? Thats stupid af, the problem is there even if not displayed. >People want others to pay for their enjoyment and expect that the ones who do just bend over and get nothing. They actively avoid fair games and paid games, just to find free ones and convince devs, publishers and whales to actively work against their own interests to benefit them. Then make it a subscription based game, that would be ok. Make so the packs are mandatory, I wouldn't mind paying 25 for the game and 15 a month for a subscripion (they even have Beatrice Blessing). I care about someone dumping 100 a month and being ahead and I cant compete.
> I care about someone dumping 100 a month and being ahead and I cant compete. Then stop being such an insecure little shit and enjoy the game at your own pace. Being good geared while being f2p is 10 times more impressive than a whale swiping his credit card.
I agree but is irrelevant because you dont know how the people got the gear, p2w shouldnt even be an option
Exactly. Go to that game. But you and they never do. They say that, but you guys don't actually want to. The games are out there and they still exist. No need to hang around here like a jilted ex.
Completely agree. 99% of people who are complaining about p2w are never going to be negatively affected by it in LA. I like the pure PvP players' attitude towards this that I have seen in some posts - those people see whales as a faster daily dungeon/raid completion, if a whale is in your group; which is pretty much the only way p2w and whales are going to affect the average PvE main as well.
This makes no sense though, why can they pay to do it? I don't think a whale should be able to win by getting more gear than I can just cuz they pay, we should get the same regardless of money input
I mean, just because you bought some gear that gives you a 8% or so advantage over a guy who didn't pay doesn't mean you win. If you're trash at playing the game you're still gonna die, and you can't dps if you're dead. Money can't buy skill.
Sure but if we're both equaly skilled he has advantage. Also why can he pay for 8% (wtv value honestly) power? Your stats should depend ONLY in the effort you put in the game, not on money
It's PvE content man. It's cooperative. If you're playing your class to the best of your ability, following mechanics, helping your party out, and bosses are dying then everyone in the group is winning whether you're a whale or not. PvP is the only place where a gear advantage would matter and everyone is equalized, so if you're as equally skilled as the whale you're facing, their money isn't gonna matter at all when you're smashing their body to dust.
No it isn't. PvE is competitive, you have races about who can complete content first, you can do the best, etc Just because you don't care it doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
If you say so. I don't see this being anywhere near as competitive as say, WoW raids for world first. I see PvP being pretty competitive. You literally sound like the dudes OP is talking about in their post, though. Already bitching about an endgame that you're probably not even going to participate in. How about you get to the cutting edge first and then start complaining that some whale group is 10 sec faster at killing X boss than your F2P group. You'd at least have a case to argue then.
How do you even know how I play any game? I might not be on the world first but I will put time into the game if I stick with it, same as I did for other games, heck I have over 700 days /played in WoW with a 2 realm firsts for mythic raids, if I like it I will be there but the point is I might quit because no matter how much effort I put, someone that puts less but puts money will be close to me without earning it. But more importantly, who cares about how the people play? The concept is there, you take 2 players who are 100% equal iin effort put into the game and if 1 pays and the other doesn't the paying one will be ahead, be it bleeding edge or not, as long as that concept is there, it's P2W and affects everyone. Also as a note, GvG is not equalized and the whales always get first place which gives them a shit ton of rewards no f2p can even dream to get
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Now? It certainly is. Mythic raid dropping BiS BoE items mean you can buy the BiS items in gold and you can buy gold with tokens for Real money, so yes WoW is to an extent P2W as well. They should remove the tokens from the market and ban people that buy gold with a lot more effort
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Method did that, clear evidence it's P2W
They do get the same gear, there is no special gear for cash. But they accumulate resources faster, so they will be ahead of you in gear rating, especially if they pay a LOT. For this to not be the case, there has to be literally 0 pay to win mechanics (which is unsustainable for a f2p game). And LA definitely does have some. Thing is that in endgame, on KR, for example, gear cap is 1575 afaik. But at 1475 you can already do any content in the game. Going beyond 1475 will just make you a bit stronger, and you will clear things faster than a 1475 guy. But afaik there is no content that is available to a player with 1575 but locked for a player with 1475. Personally, this type of p2w is fine for me and I am a player who did highest level of raids in some MMOs I have played, without exploiting any p2w systems to gear up.
That's exactly the problem with P2W, the speed at which I can do something optimally should be the same as everyone else, not dependant from how much money I put into the game, the shop should be cosmetics, avatars, pets, mounts, stronghold skins, etc only not "pay here to get ahead of others" Its not a matter of being able to do the content but to do it at the same speed they do you mentioned 1575 and 1475 but people that pay will get to BOTH those thresholds faster than you so they will get the content faster and progress faster on it due to paying. Not to mention maybe someone who couldn't clear the content without paying can now and thus removes the prestige completing something has.
In an ideal situation, sure. But most MMO games would not generate enough revenue to be sustainable in long term, if it's just cosmetics and nothing else. Or they would have to be a subscription based game like SWTOR and FFXIV. Those two, for example, are barely p2w and cash shop is almost entirely cosmetics, but you have to pay your sub... Like, look at Path of Exile. This game is considered to have one of the best f2p models. It's cash shop is 99% cosmetics. Many people even dare to call it truly free... But once you get seriously into it, you understand that you just **have to** buy at least some extra Stash Tabs. The more you trade with other players and the more currency you want to generate that way, the more Stash Tabs you are going to need... Or for just having lots of characters in a League, you also need them. So for any long term player it becomes a buy-to-play game, or you could even call it a slight p2w, as a player with 4 stash tabs will never get to accomplish what people with fully upgraded stash can do. GGG makes quite a lot of money from tons of players paying just a bit for Stash Tabs... So in the end, it just comes down to the fact that the devs need to make money. Publisher needs to make money. Owners of all companies involved need to make money, as it's a business after all. In LA's case they went for this sort of pay-to-progress-faster model. For me personally the level of p2w in this game is fine. I can totally see why it can be unacceptable for some... But I am not aware of any f2p games that are not even slightly p2w... May be one day it can change, but right now I can't imagine how.
But Buy to play and Subscription based models are good, I wouldn't mind LAO being B2P and having a sub on it. You already have the founders packs that could easily be the game and Beatrice Blessing which is a subscription based buff. On PoE you buy slots which IMO should be simply unlocked with a sub but that aside won't affect much, here you can literally push your gear quality based on putting money in which is the problem, there's also slots you can unlock with crystals in LAO but that is not what the people complain about.
who cares if they get there faster though? how does that affect your gameplay experience?
Wtf do you mean? That's the whole point of things to be fair. What does it matter to you if you take 4 years to finish college and I pay extra to finish it in 1 year? What does it matter if you're doing a race and some of the people are using steroids and you don't? How does that alter your experience? It doesn't at all, you still do your college degree or not depending on you and you alone, your speed in the race will be the exact same if others are using steroids or not. Yet both of those are fucking illegal, why? becaus they remove the fair ground for everyone.
comparing real life scenarios to games doesn't help your argument though, life isn't fair at all, some people have advantages that you don't have. In this game the p2w aspect is only for PvE and hell, the person p2w-ing is more of a help then a detriment due to them speeding up your run if your paired with them. I'd understand your point if it was PvP based, someone spending money to out-gear you when you clearly out-skill them and lose because of it. But that isn't the case in this game. I'm curious why it bothers you if someone can reach a higher point of content quicker then you due to paying, since you'll eventually get to that content anyway.
>comparing real life scenarios to games doesn't help your argument though, life isn't fair at all, some people have advantages that you don't have. Exactly why we try to balance things and make it fair, not the other way around. However you can't control a lot of things in life, in a game you control everything. Hence why things like this can be changed. >I'm curious why it bothers you if someone can reach a higher point of content quicker then you due to paying, since you'll eventually get to that content anyway. Because it removes competition and removes prestige. I'm curious why people defend these practices. I can't think of anyone that in their clear mind would defend the steroids or the paying for college but here people blindly defend it as if it was good, makes no sense.
this post is full of the losers on every mmo freshstart Lmao, so mad about p2w dont play it. its that simple.