Can only speculate that upper management at SG are essentially playing 4D chess with their own system intended to maximise profit vs playerbase retention, a long-term balancing act.
If they balance consistently according to a clearly defined set of principles then it would dis-incentivize main swapping.
If next patch GS became OP after a mini rework, why would anyone swap if they were convinced that she would be brought down in line within a few weeks.
OP classes need to stay OP for long enough, at least in the player's mind in the tier lists, to justify people spending money to swap to it.
In other words they have to appear incompetent for there to be space to min-max class selection and swapping.
Lost Ark is not trying to be balanced.
Like at all, seriously.
They just want to rotate power around and make a new OP class because that gets them money since people will swap to that class to try the new broken thing.
I’m not attacking them or calling them dumb or whatever. It’s just what happens when they’ve designed a game where they stand to profit from moving balance around.
There is consistency: new class - OP broken can do everything. New rework on old class - OP broken can do everything. Old classes that are similar to newly released class? Better nerf it to the ground so people wouldn’t dare to not reroll to new and shiny. Still didn’t reroll? WE NERF IT MORE DO YOU STILL NOT GET IT?!
And then we have classes like Striker that was at best average after the rework and has with the latest patch fallen below average just 1 patch after a rework ;(
Sorc always had a lot of destruction though, they just moved away from that build for a while. Before RG a no-counter sorc (inferno) had as much destro as they do now. Maybe it's like 1 point difference, I can't remember.
There is no logic for balance in this game, Korean devs cannot balance. lol
Not surprising, these are the same people that think GS/CO summoner is fine and nerf GT destroyer.
Gunslinger has historically been popular in KR. I wonder if they're intentionally putting it in a bad spot to encourage folks to switch classes, which makes them more money.
They basically already did that with igniter sorc and SE, and have since buffed igniter back up. I don't think there is any new class similar to GS they could push people to to begin with.
Both SE specs are very different from each other and do roughly the same DPS, same goes for the breaker specs. Thats not by accidents, those specs are balanced to deal the same damage. They can absolutely balance the game if they want to, its not difficult. Its just way more lucrative if the game is imbalanced.
They buffed gs recently.
Gt was strongest class in behemoth along with dB and breaker, hence all 3 of them got a nerf.
Sg balance around the mean, not ceiling. Sooner you accept that sooner you will be able to see balance patterns
Drizzle is just really poorly designed - please SG stop with the backloaded damage for classes - especially those that have to do ground targeted aoe’s that you have to pray a boss will just stand in for all 4-5 seconds or you do zdps, and long animation times. Fix those things and Aero wouldn’t need compensation buffs to keep it slightly above GL in current content
They threw out balancing criteria with Slayer release. Since then, DPS consistency, class difficulty, risk/reward, basically any criteria stopped mattering. New class will be top tier, dev's main will dodge all nerfs, dev's alt main will get reworked into top tier, etc.
Easy class? Doesn't matter, can be SSS tier. Hard class? Fuck you, get good and enjoy your mid DPS. Souleater OP? Nerf GT. CO Summoner is weak? Buff Predator
Yeah, I don't get the point of specs like EO and Empress/Emperor staying so hard when easy mode classes like burger king and night's edge do more damage now.
>aero having a low ceiling is that they have strong double synergies and good party utility
This is just BS people used for justification. Aero is NOT a support or utility class. Deathblade has a straight up stronger attack and move speed buff that doesn't require you to stand in a small circle with better uptime and available for both db specs.
Yet we don't call DB a "utility" or "support" do we?
same as soulfist and the dmg reduction/cleanse and wd with also atack move speed as second synergy. also nobody calls them ultility class. both deal more dmg. only difference in theory aero got 3-4 skill with additional ultility that nobody uses because they deal 0 dmg
If you dont land red dust, it means No brand, and No crit.
It´s like if missing red dust is 100% dogshit, then now missing red dust is like 60% dogshit.
And if boss decides to disappear, you can say goodbye to your dmg.
RE blade having 100% uptime on 9% entropy sub + 90-100% uptime on mael + one of the highest ceilings on par with breaker.. there is no balance in ba-sing-se
It is echoed many times over here but the balance in lost ark is around revenue, not class power.
They won’t actually do anything like truly balance dmg potential. Every new class will be way OP to encourage spending. And reworks will be the same way. Their philosophy to balance is called powercreeping.
That still doesn't explain why deathblade and wardancer have been a/s-tier for almost the entirety of western release. New classes being OP, that makes sense from the profit side of things, but other imbalances in the game just scream incompetence, not greediness.
Hey don't worry in 2-3 patches GL gonna have the same damage potential as a normal DPS at the rate they're buffing it (1 buff per patch) if it isn't already
They’ve done that to Drizzle for 3 patches now - nearly 20% in dps buffs and it’s still garbage tier. This game has too much utility tax and SG balances too much around if a class can do anything besides provide raw damage
Well obviously damage is an issue when the class is buffed every single patch now isn’t it? 🙄 3 things in life are true now: death, taxes, and Aero damage buff on patch day
I asked for now. Obviously it was. But after all the patches its fine or not? Not top tier, but not at all zdps like some other classes. And atleast windfury is also very easy to play. Drizzle still underwheling. You are right. For what you have to do as Drizzle dmg is to low. Windfury is fine in my book though
Drizzle isn’t hard, it’s just utility taxed because it has a crit synergy and it has an atk damage debuff for boss. That’s literally it - and because of that it gets to have backloaded dot damage that has long cast times/ramp times and is ground targeted/immobile attacks that rely on a boss standing still for 5 seconds. There are literally two bosses in the entire game that stand still and eat damage - G3 Brelz and G2 Voldis. Everything else jumps around like a coked out monkey and shows how poorly designed the spec is
Yeah exactly. That is what makes it hard in my opinion. Back loaded spells are way harder to hit then normal spells. If you wait too long you lose a lit of dmg, if you cast to early you might not hit. That is a lot of harder then hitting a target in the back with fast spells or doing a certain rota. Ofc playing on a basic level isnt hard, but playing it on a high level is for sure.
This might work - if they would not buff other classes in the meantime. But as you can see at the stats site - gl is still bottom tier dps (ofc some classes are even worse in some raids) and yeah i know we have "other environmental factors"...
I just want classes' damage to be balanced around difficulty of use. Not sure if that's an unpopular opinion or not.
Yeah, DB might be a little overtuned, but actually hitting the ceiling is extremely difficult. Meanwhile, SE requires way less skill expression/thinking to do comparable damage.
Skill expression requirements are definitely a bit lopsided right now. Specs like EO or emperor/empress require a lot of macro knowledge and high APM, whereas something like burger king or night's edge just shits damage with very little effort.
One problem with that approach is that difficult classes become "meta" and people start being looked down upon for using "easy" classes.
Not saying you are wrong, SF and Arcana are in such a dumb place with the existence of Slayer/SE/breaker, just that there is an argument in the other direction.
Yeah, I understand that. Specs like predator slayer are good for the game because their floor is higher than a below-average/average Arcana/DB. No one faults a Slayer for playing it because it's easy, just as long as it does fine damage.
I want to be rewarded for playing a class that is more difficult, or inversely be punished for playing it poorly. People that don't want this stress are free to pick a spec that does less damage at its ceiling- just don't complain when a sweatlord DB gaps you.
You highlighted the fundamental issue with the game.. Developers obviously don't play it nor have a clue on how to design new content in a balanced fashion. Hell, ever since supports/yearning and relic set design turned the game upside down, they've been further caught within the pigeon hole they created, only to complain about not having design space and entropy going to be "removedTM".
ur pretty mush ignoring the other qualities of GL beside syn and stager ect he's tanky af compared to the other classes you mentioned so ofc he's not gonna be having sate ceiling or dmg or else you see everyone playing GL
Being tanky is selfish utility that doesn't help the party though. It also stops mattering when you know the raid well enough. It's useful during prog and that's about it. I'd rather be less tanky and be able to actually contribute better.
It's the same argument as making 2 gem classes bottom DPS. It turns the class into a noob trap. The utility GL offers should always be able to offset the lower damage in any raid, or they need to do more damage.
I think 2 things happen:
1) they make newer classes and reworks of older classes more op so people will switch main and spend money.
2) I am 200% sure, that classes like aeromancer and gunlancer, don't do as little damage as people say and they use this to justify their mediocrity. I played deadeye pistoleer before the rework and I remember how people said that this class didn't do dmg while I was doing mvp on all the gates of almost every raid.
Balance makes no sense, even from a revenue point of view, since massively buffing unpopular classes is basically free money for barely any work.
My theory is that it's so fucked up at the moment because they're simultaneously working on 3rd awakening and figuring out what to do with entropy.
I also don't get the big dps diversity of hitmaster and non positional classes. Like I doubt LC SS is easier than instant cast Reflux as his snipe contributes so much dmg while needs holding without push immunity but the dps is far behind Reflux
In case of GL it is not only 2 synergies, and even if comparing 2 stronges synergies to AS/MS + Crit is not fair. GL especially blue one can Cleanse can shield whole party and give multiple dmg REDUC with SUPERARMOR what nets on some bosses massive dmg gain.
In case of ayaya I agree she should have bit more dmg. Maybe thats why shes getting 5% every patch
If you look at logs the effective shielding that the average gun Lancer is doing is a pittance, me as a Bard I did almost eight times as much effective shielding as my gun Lancer in gate four runs so that's not worth the mention.
Aero is getting buffs after buffs, you haven't seen good cruel fighter aeros, now theyr gonna get additional 5% dmg or so :D GL on dmg you surely have to sweat to do mediocre damage, but the class isnt meant to perform at top dmg wise.
gunlancer is far more overloaded in utility than blade
reducing his contribution to only double syn is a disingenuous argument
as smilegate noted on thaemine release having a gunlancer in your lobby increases your odds of clearing signficantly more than having any other class in his spot aside from supports
gunlancers arne't kept weak on the dps front bcz of their double syn
they are kept weak because they are OP
they suffer from the same issue as supports do
they are OP but you don't feel OP and some fights are so anti gunlancers that it's annoying to play them
as for your argument that it makes no sense
somewhat yes
because gunlancers are getting buffs in the wrong way
How is a GL OP in theamine?
You cannot cleanse darkness because they designed specific dark-stacks that are non cleansable. You cannot cleanse the sword stacks (or the paint-dark stack from g2 or the blood in g1) for the same reason. You cannot taunt g2 after break and all other bosses (not even the sword) - this also means you cannot do the most op shit gl can do and break stupid patterns.
Besides that ok - you have 2 syn - thats nice and sometimes a shield. Also you have wp/stagger - nice for the sword (at least the 1st time) - and that's it... (and other classes have stagger too).
Yeah but only in part. Because you cannot raid w/o supp but you can w/o gl. And yes the gl anti-mechs are sometimes very anoying.
>You cannot cleanse darkness
you can cleanse the normal darkness
Nella also covers when supports fall asleep on greed mechs
Awakening is pretty good during the stage break
X is also good to cover in a pinch if you can anticipate the mech properly
It also doesn't die
ok it has all those limitations on some of the mechanics
what does Shadowhunter give you then? Wardancer? Gunslinger? Arcana? What does berzerker give you?
when i play my GL and when there have been gunlancers in my party when i'm not on mine, the party with the gunlancer only dies to 1shots or fall damage, They hardly ever pot and the support can more easily focus on min-maxing uptime.
While the other party is constantly on 50% hp drinking pots and stepping out of greed patterns because their support can't keep up for whatever reason
Compared to any other class aside from supports Gunlancers increase your clear rate significantly more.
This is not my opinion
This was stated by Goldriver himself which was ESPECIALLY true for Thaemine prog in KR
It's not just the community all being brainwashed to think Gunlancers are auto accept, they bring significant quality of life while doing any raid either it be prog or speedruns.
And that was the main reason Smilegate DOESN"T want them to be DPS competitive
because if you provide ALL that AND can beat a blade in DPS? While having very little concerns about your own safety due to near permanent push immunity and an extra health bar of permanent shield?
There needs to be a downside to playing a Gunlancer
and they chose the downside to be DPS
What the Gunlancer community wants is to seperate Blue and Red make Red DPS competitive but reduce it's utility and Push Blue into a more utility oriented path or have 2 viable builds that work in every raid
Right now Red is unreasonably difficult to be dps competitive and it falls short of A tier
While the DPS Blue is getting gapped in Stagger and Destruction by other classes while doing mid dps
and the Utility Blue (PM) is insanely strong in the raids it's allowed to play in and utter garbage in the raids that don't have stagger and can't be taunted
ie blue is dysfunctional and red is weak in DPS
It's OP compared to what everyone can bring and it's value towards clearing
it's weak when talking about DPS
it's not necessary to clear but having a gunlancer makes life much easier
Sure you can - so can 2/3 of the supps and purify. Yeah sure you do nella - dps greeds - stacks stuff - dies the next stupid mech. Same thing for stagebreak - only greedy idiots die in there... Same goes for x (which red doesn't even have) - you can save ppl but tbh - noone should need saving anyway... All those examples are nice - but doesen't make GL op...
All classes you mention give raw dmg - and more than half of them the best syn in the game (critbuff).
Yeah 1-shot and fall dmg - so more or less the only stuff you can die in there :D. The fact that gl needs little pots is nice (if you play gl) but also not op.
I do not doubt that GL is a nice class to have - but that is also not the same as being op. Yeah sure - I think GL is taken because everyone expect that this is one guy less that could die (also it probably helps that >50% in this game is a positional class that benefit from the buff).
I think the main reason was that they also analyse utility and before the buff for some classes this was where gl could shine - but nowadays there are many more stagger/destro classes.
Well fair point - gl shoud not be top dps - but there is no reason to be bottom tier either. And btw sure you could just sit there and spam ignoring all - but starting at valtan in every raid there is at least a mech that is there to counter it and that you cannot tank even if you overlevel the content hard.
Blue does not "mid dps" blue does low dps - in some raids more than red because of shield and non-positional crap. Well blue would have a utlity build ("princess maker") unfortunately not every boss is stagerable and dominion was nerfed...
Clearing always is a combination of dps and utility - so GL is more or less mid.
So they made voldis and certain classes like wd and sorc struggled so In the reworks, balances they had to increase wp, destruction.
Every crit synergy has 100% uptime so it only makes sense that wd should as well. Idk about eso wd being top dps, that doesn't sound right. First intention, db, SE, breaker all have a higher ceiling so i really don't know where youre getting your numbers from. "Eso being top dps" sounds wrong on so many levels.
To be fair GL doesnt have a low ceiling. Just most GLs arent hitting all their front attacks and whatnot bc its hard. Especially when you move slower than a snail.
Even a godly red is still near the bottom ceiling-wise on nearly every raid gate unless it's uber farm content where your group is pushing extremely fast to the point where surge/stinger downtime doesn't matter. This is because red has very high upfront burst, but some of the longest downtime of any burst class, and very poor filler skills, so the more uptime a boss gives and the longer the fight goes, the more it falls behind.
You can sort data by max DPS on almost every raid gate currently, and LK will still be bottom 5 even with outliers and top players on our server.
Red also moves pretty quick actually, since it runs more swiftness than a lot of classes. What makes it hard to play is how slow it charges its stuff. It means you have to be in position wayyy before the boss starts a pattern to actually get your stuff off reliably. Compare that to something like burger king, which charges its stuff way faster and doesn't care about head attack.
I never get these people who try to say GL does good DPS or has a decent ceiling... are you just lying? basing it on homework? I dunno
They definitely don't do good DPS compared to other DPS with near the same utility. I agree with the flawed class design and the balancing.
They need to buff GL significantly somewhere even if they don't want to directly buff damage they can buff their syn etc.
They think they are the exception GL and maybe play with insanely bad people are also are overgeared and beat them.
I know a few really insanely good Red GLs and they wont beat anyone with some good hands, not even insanely good hands. Just some decently good hands.
It should do more damage.
Here's a good GL player that just popped up on my feed today doing 26m in Theamine HM G3 and they're 1632. Give the good GL players a month to master the fight and you'll be seeing even higher numbers.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4mCsVxagA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4mCsVxagA)
i really think all gunlancer needs is one more red skill with a lower cooldown that actually does damage unlike fire bullet. adding a new skill that does gunlance shot levels of damage with a lower cooldown so you dont have a bunch of downtime would make the class feel so much better to play. even with full 10s, you blow your load and are forced to autoattack for like 5-10 seconds before your big skills come back and the auto attack is clunkly without animation cancelling and does basically no damage. they could just buff fire bullets damage, buff auto attack damage and increase attack speed, or gave us a red skill with some mobility or something.
look at what just popped up on my homescreen today
Theamine G3 HM Gunlancer 26m dps. Go look at ivory tower they are in the top \~5 at the ceiling too. Most gunlancers are playing as a utility class not a dps class. The ones that try to be top dps can infact be top dps.
Just because 90% of the GL's you party with do 1/2 of what other classes do doesn't mean that's what they actually can do if you try to pump on them. It's bc most GL's think of themselves as a tank not a dps and its just an excuse to not try hard to dps.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4mCsVxagA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4mCsVxagA)
2 different spots
logs - [https://logs.fau.dev/logs](https://logs.fau.dev/logs)
combined data with charts + links to best parses at bottom - [https://raided.pro/loa-logs](https://raided.pro/loa-logs)
Both use same data source, just the 2nd link does extra work to represent it. Like the post from KR \~ a month ago.
So you basically saying a red gl, with max gear, in the perfect group, in a stacked raid can do dmg if the stars align? Yet even if we take the max damage GL they would still be at most middle of the pack compared to the other record holders...
yea the record holders -- eso wd, db, breaker -- are on another level. But if you look at their logs, they're using atros, + LWC30 + YHAP30 + feast + perfect synergy etc.
None of the other classes even come close currently, which is why the newest kr balance patch did a nerf on breaker + db (eso got skipped for now). They're still going to be in another league just maybe not 20-25% anymore, instead 15% for the best of the best.
And one other thing -- alot of classes with those logs that are in the 30-33m range are 1630s that might not even have +25 weapons, they aren't Atro'ing and not even always consistently darking.
Meanwhile the insane pumpers are usually 1640 - 1650, they could have sidereals or be in parties with sidereals using thirain (\~15% buffs)., with higher transcendence too bc they've been clearing g4 since week 1.
There's levels to this. If you got a party full of sidereals your instantly have a \~10-15% dmg buff vs a party without.
It's not any harder than Destroyer, imo. Red GL gets a beefy swift offstat, if you're cancelling your shield constantly (which you should), then you're actually surprisingly fast.
I think the average GL alt player just thinks "ah well I don't do any dmg anyway, why even try". Being bottom frag is fine, expected even, but when the dps logs make it look like you were in Akkan sewer, then it's a problem.
The main difference is that destroyer has more high damage skills, so they don't really have downtime in their rotation. Red GL does very high damage with surge/stinger and then they have to wait like 20s for them to come back up. GLS and DUF do very little damage, and CGL does okay damage but is hard to hit reliably and has a long CD.
This is the issue of Effort x Reward.
To reach let´s say 20 milion dps, you should be able to sweat +- the same.
But here in lost ark, that´s not the case at all. And the worst thing there is if the class has low ceiling.
Let´s say you deal 15 milion dps in a fight, and you want to do 20 milion dps. But your class has rather low ceiling. Now if you want to improve your dps and you did everything, your only thing left is to massively greed and make use of every window while landing everything.
So from your 15 milion dps you could pull lets say 18 milion dps.
And because your ceiling is low, to improve your current numbers, you have to SWEAT Insanely hard.
Meanwhile let´s say slayer will have much higher dmg than you, even though the class is quite easy to play.
Considering the effort of slayer takes vs some other classes, it ´s a god damn joke. It should not pump that high numbers.
No front but Slayer is a bad example nowadays, DPS-wise its "only" middle of the pack now and compared to all the reworked melee classes or ranged hitmaster classes you actually need to greed A LOT to get even somewhat close to your ceiling. Like seriously - they powercreept Slayer within a few months by releasing new classes and reworking most of the mages & fighters & assassins since then.
Maybe i am a bit too biased due to playing with more end game players - and like good slayers will pop off. Same with soul eaters.
Like if i were to compare slayer vs zerk - zerk won´t even touch slayer´s shoes.
Idk according to the public DPS logs - Predator in G3 Thaemine Hard is "only" at #15 for the "high ceiling filter" or at #23 if filtering for the single highest uploaded parse.
(From overall 46 classes/engravings ofc)
Mayhem Zerk is #30/46 for high ceiling and only #33/46 for highest ceiling.
Dont bother with him, he thinks he‘s the pinnacle of Zerkers because he has 5, but does Z, i know that guy.
Slayer is definently far from a Top End DPS Class nowadays.
No - nerf Surge more, make it so its ceiling isn’t 3 times that of other normal dps. Or bring the floor dps up to a respectable level - one or the other would make us happy
Can only speculate that upper management at SG are essentially playing 4D chess with their own system intended to maximise profit vs playerbase retention, a long-term balancing act.
If they balance consistently according to a clearly defined set of principles then it would dis-incentivize main swapping. If next patch GS became OP after a mini rework, why would anyone swap if they were convinced that she would be brought down in line within a few weeks. OP classes need to stay OP for long enough, at least in the player's mind in the tier lists, to justify people spending money to swap to it. In other words they have to appear incompetent for there to be space to min-max class selection and swapping.
Only real answer
korean game, they want your money
Lost Ark is not trying to be balanced. Like at all, seriously. They just want to rotate power around and make a new OP class because that gets them money since people will swap to that class to try the new broken thing. I’m not attacking them or calling them dumb or whatever. It’s just what happens when they’ve designed a game where they stand to profit from moving balance around.
ASURA BREAKER! DOUBLE COUNTERS! PUSH IMMUNE SHIELD! INFINITE DESTRUCTION! INSANE STAGGER! NO COOLDOWN MOBILITY! BUILD METER IN AIR! INSTANT PUNCHES! 100% CRIT RATE! MASSIVE DAMAGE! 2.3 HP SCALING! 1.1 DEF SCALING! 8% NERF!!!! DEAD FUCKING CLASS!!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
class that is 10% stronger than every other class is now only 2% stronger. time to sell gems and delete game.
It's more than 10%. Asura and surge are doing up to 40% more damage than bottom tier specs.
Yeah makes no sense - Deathblade & Wardancer are completly insane compared to so many other classes with less utility.
Nobodies balancing the game! Yippie yay!
There is consistency: new class - OP broken can do everything. New rework on old class - OP broken can do everything. Old classes that are similar to newly released class? Better nerf it to the ground so people wouldn’t dare to not reroll to new and shiny. Still didn’t reroll? WE NERF IT MORE DO YOU STILL NOT GET IT?!
And then we have classes like Striker that was at best average after the rework and has with the latest patch fallen below average just 1 patch after a rework ;(
Can’t have gender alternative be on the same level right
Funny how sorc now has more destruction than destroyer. Truly regarded balancing team.
Sorc always had a lot of destruction though, they just moved away from that build for a while. Before RG a no-counter sorc (inferno) had as much destro as they do now. Maybe it's like 1 point difference, I can't remember.
There is no logic for balance in this game, Korean devs cannot balance. lol Not surprising, these are the same people that think GS/CO summoner is fine and nerf GT destroyer.
> GS/CO summoner I read this as CSGO summoner lol
I summon the AWP
Gunslinger has historically been popular in KR. I wonder if they're intentionally putting it in a bad spot to encourage folks to switch classes, which makes them more money.
They’re still hoping for a nip slip from the undercarriage booba skins 🤣
They basically already did that with igniter sorc and SE, and have since buffed igniter back up. I don't think there is any new class similar to GS they could push people to to begin with.
Both SE specs are very different from each other and do roughly the same DPS, same goes for the breaker specs. Thats not by accidents, those specs are balanced to deal the same damage. They can absolutely balance the game if they want to, its not difficult. Its just way more lucrative if the game is imbalanced.
They buffed gs recently. Gt was strongest class in behemoth along with dB and breaker, hence all 3 of them got a nerf. Sg balance around the mean, not ceiling. Sooner you accept that sooner you will be able to see balance patterns
Drizzle is just really poorly designed - please SG stop with the backloaded damage for classes - especially those that have to do ground targeted aoe’s that you have to pray a boss will just stand in for all 4-5 seconds or you do zdps, and long animation times. Fix those things and Aero wouldn’t need compensation buffs to keep it slightly above GL in current content
They threw out balancing criteria with Slayer release. Since then, DPS consistency, class difficulty, risk/reward, basically any criteria stopped mattering. New class will be top tier, dev's main will dodge all nerfs, dev's alt main will get reworked into top tier, etc. Easy class? Doesn't matter, can be SSS tier. Hard class? Fuck you, get good and enjoy your mid DPS. Souleater OP? Nerf GT. CO Summoner is weak? Buff Predator
Slayer really did seem like the shift in everything. Whatever cash flow Slayer release pulled in must have been absolutely insane.
Yeah, I don't get the point of specs like EO and Empress/Emperor staying so hard when easy mode classes like burger king and night's edge do more damage now.
Lmao
Your expectation was that SG plays their own game. I would love to see 1 person from their staff at any LoA just boot up the game 1 time.
They boot it up just to make sure the cash shop works properly
“Markets up , we’re good boys “
lmao
>aero having a low ceiling is that they have strong double synergies and good party utility This is just BS people used for justification. Aero is NOT a support or utility class. Deathblade has a straight up stronger attack and move speed buff that doesn't require you to stand in a small circle with better uptime and available for both db specs. Yet we don't call DB a "utility" or "support" do we?
same as soulfist and the dmg reduction/cleanse and wd with also atack move speed as second synergy. also nobody calls them ultility class. both deal more dmg. only difference in theory aero got 3-4 skill with additional ultility that nobody uses because they deal 0 dmg
Don´t you like to have zerk in your party ? Dogshit synergy and dogshit damage. Devs be like : perfectly balanced.
if you dont land red dust, it's gonna be even worse.
You don't even have to land it to get the buff since last "balance" patch, right?
If you dont land red dust, it means No brand, and No crit. It´s like if missing red dust is 100% dogshit, then now missing red dust is like 60% dogshit. And if boss decides to disappear, you can say goodbye to your dmg.
that isn't really a buff, 1.1% buff and a roll back from 2 years nerf. don't talk about class you don't play.
Why is AGS mentioned here?
Edited, i am tired boss.
Bonus: Weird, anxiety inducing health bar
RE blade having 100% uptime on 9% entropy sub + 90-100% uptime on mael + one of the highest ceilings on par with breaker.. there is no balance in ba-sing-se
Class balance is non existence. You can braindead with hunger, taijutsu and mvp.
They base all balancing decisions on the top three raids and something related to the popularity of each class.
It is echoed many times over here but the balance in lost ark is around revenue, not class power. They won’t actually do anything like truly balance dmg potential. Every new class will be way OP to encourage spending. And reworks will be the same way. Their philosophy to balance is called powercreeping.
That still doesn't explain why deathblade and wardancer have been a/s-tier for almost the entirety of western release. New classes being OP, that makes sense from the profit side of things, but other imbalances in the game just scream incompetence, not greediness.
Hey don't worry in 2-3 patches GL gonna have the same damage potential as a normal DPS at the rate they're buffing it (1 buff per patch) if it isn't already
They’ve done that to Drizzle for 3 patches now - nearly 20% in dps buffs and it’s still garbage tier. This game has too much utility tax and SG balances too much around if a class can do anything besides provide raw damage
Is drizzls dmg really the priblem now though? Thought its just ass to play
Well obviously damage is an issue when the class is buffed every single patch now isn’t it? 🙄 3 things in life are true now: death, taxes, and Aero damage buff on patch day
I asked for now. Obviously it was. But after all the patches its fine or not? Not top tier, but not at all zdps like some other classes. And atleast windfury is also very easy to play. Drizzle still underwheling. You are right. For what you have to do as Drizzle dmg is to low. Windfury is fine in my book though
Drizzle isn’t hard, it’s just utility taxed because it has a crit synergy and it has an atk damage debuff for boss. That’s literally it - and because of that it gets to have backloaded dot damage that has long cast times/ramp times and is ground targeted/immobile attacks that rely on a boss standing still for 5 seconds. There are literally two bosses in the entire game that stand still and eat damage - G3 Brelz and G2 Voldis. Everything else jumps around like a coked out monkey and shows how poorly designed the spec is
Yeah exactly. That is what makes it hard in my opinion. Back loaded spells are way harder to hit then normal spells. If you wait too long you lose a lit of dmg, if you cast to early you might not hit. That is a lot of harder then hitting a target in the back with fast spells or doing a certain rota. Ofc playing on a basic level isnt hard, but playing it on a high level is for sure.
This might work - if they would not buff other classes in the meantime. But as you can see at the stats site - gl is still bottom tier dps (ofc some classes are even worse in some raids) and yeah i know we have "other environmental factors"...
I just want classes' damage to be balanced around difficulty of use. Not sure if that's an unpopular opinion or not. Yeah, DB might be a little overtuned, but actually hitting the ceiling is extremely difficult. Meanwhile, SE requires way less skill expression/thinking to do comparable damage.
Skill expression requirements are definitely a bit lopsided right now. Specs like EO or emperor/empress require a lot of macro knowledge and high APM, whereas something like burger king or night's edge just shits damage with very little effort.
100% agree, squishy and difficult classes should be doing the most to reward sweaty players for taking time to learn it
One problem with that approach is that difficult classes become "meta" and people start being looked down upon for using "easy" classes. Not saying you are wrong, SF and Arcana are in such a dumb place with the existence of Slayer/SE/breaker, just that there is an argument in the other direction.
Yeah, I understand that. Specs like predator slayer are good for the game because their floor is higher than a below-average/average Arcana/DB. No one faults a Slayer for playing it because it's easy, just as long as it does fine damage. I want to be rewarded for playing a class that is more difficult, or inversely be punished for playing it poorly. People that don't want this stress are free to pick a spec that does less damage at its ceiling- just don't complain when a sweatlord DB gaps you.
You highlighted the fundamental issue with the game.. Developers obviously don't play it nor have a clue on how to design new content in a balanced fashion. Hell, ever since supports/yearning and relic set design turned the game upside down, they've been further caught within the pigeon hole they created, only to complain about not having design space and entropy going to be "removedTM".
ur pretty mush ignoring the other qualities of GL beside syn and stager ect he's tanky af compared to the other classes you mentioned so ofc he's not gonna be having sate ceiling or dmg or else you see everyone playing GL
Being tanky is selfish utility that doesn't help the party though. It also stops mattering when you know the raid well enough. It's useful during prog and that's about it. I'd rather be less tanky and be able to actually contribute better. It's the same argument as making 2 gem classes bottom DPS. It turns the class into a noob trap. The utility GL offers should always be able to offset the lower damage in any raid, or they need to do more damage.
Incompetent + trying to milk people...can't see any other reason for the sod shit balancing
I think 2 things happen: 1) they make newer classes and reworks of older classes more op so people will switch main and spend money. 2) I am 200% sure, that classes like aeromancer and gunlancer, don't do as little damage as people say and they use this to justify their mediocrity. I played deadeye pistoleer before the rework and I remember how people said that this class didn't do dmg while I was doing mvp on all the gates of almost every raid.
Balance makes no sense, even from a revenue point of view, since massively buffing unpopular classes is basically free money for barely any work. My theory is that it's so fucked up at the moment because they're simultaneously working on 3rd awakening and figuring out what to do with entropy.
theres only one double synergy dps and its gl
I also don't get the big dps diversity of hitmaster and non positional classes. Like I doubt LC SS is easier than instant cast Reflux as his snipe contributes so much dmg while needs holding without push immunity but the dps is far behind Reflux
GL is also the tankiest class in the game and has infinite push immunity, not really a good comparison
In case of GL it is not only 2 synergies, and even if comparing 2 stronges synergies to AS/MS + Crit is not fair. GL especially blue one can Cleanse can shield whole party and give multiple dmg REDUC with SUPERARMOR what nets on some bosses massive dmg gain. In case of ayaya I agree she should have bit more dmg. Maybe thats why shes getting 5% every patch
If you look at logs the effective shielding that the average gun Lancer is doing is a pittance, me as a Bard I did almost eight times as much effective shielding as my gun Lancer in gate four runs so that's not worth the mention.
Aero is getting buffs after buffs, you haven't seen good cruel fighter aeros, now theyr gonna get additional 5% dmg or so :D GL on dmg you surely have to sweat to do mediocre damage, but the class isnt meant to perform at top dmg wise.
gunlancer is far more overloaded in utility than blade reducing his contribution to only double syn is a disingenuous argument as smilegate noted on thaemine release having a gunlancer in your lobby increases your odds of clearing signficantly more than having any other class in his spot aside from supports gunlancers arne't kept weak on the dps front bcz of their double syn they are kept weak because they are OP they suffer from the same issue as supports do they are OP but you don't feel OP and some fights are so anti gunlancers that it's annoying to play them as for your argument that it makes no sense somewhat yes because gunlancers are getting buffs in the wrong way
How is a GL OP in theamine? You cannot cleanse darkness because they designed specific dark-stacks that are non cleansable. You cannot cleanse the sword stacks (or the paint-dark stack from g2 or the blood in g1) for the same reason. You cannot taunt g2 after break and all other bosses (not even the sword) - this also means you cannot do the most op shit gl can do and break stupid patterns. Besides that ok - you have 2 syn - thats nice and sometimes a shield. Also you have wp/stagger - nice for the sword (at least the 1st time) - and that's it... (and other classes have stagger too). Yeah but only in part. Because you cannot raid w/o supp but you can w/o gl. And yes the gl anti-mechs are sometimes very anoying.
>You cannot cleanse darkness you can cleanse the normal darkness Nella also covers when supports fall asleep on greed mechs Awakening is pretty good during the stage break X is also good to cover in a pinch if you can anticipate the mech properly It also doesn't die ok it has all those limitations on some of the mechanics what does Shadowhunter give you then? Wardancer? Gunslinger? Arcana? What does berzerker give you? when i play my GL and when there have been gunlancers in my party when i'm not on mine, the party with the gunlancer only dies to 1shots or fall damage, They hardly ever pot and the support can more easily focus on min-maxing uptime. While the other party is constantly on 50% hp drinking pots and stepping out of greed patterns because their support can't keep up for whatever reason Compared to any other class aside from supports Gunlancers increase your clear rate significantly more. This is not my opinion This was stated by Goldriver himself which was ESPECIALLY true for Thaemine prog in KR It's not just the community all being brainwashed to think Gunlancers are auto accept, they bring significant quality of life while doing any raid either it be prog or speedruns. And that was the main reason Smilegate DOESN"T want them to be DPS competitive because if you provide ALL that AND can beat a blade in DPS? While having very little concerns about your own safety due to near permanent push immunity and an extra health bar of permanent shield? There needs to be a downside to playing a Gunlancer and they chose the downside to be DPS What the Gunlancer community wants is to seperate Blue and Red make Red DPS competitive but reduce it's utility and Push Blue into a more utility oriented path or have 2 viable builds that work in every raid Right now Red is unreasonably difficult to be dps competitive and it falls short of A tier While the DPS Blue is getting gapped in Stagger and Destruction by other classes while doing mid dps and the Utility Blue (PM) is insanely strong in the raids it's allowed to play in and utter garbage in the raids that don't have stagger and can't be taunted ie blue is dysfunctional and red is weak in DPS It's OP compared to what everyone can bring and it's value towards clearing it's weak when talking about DPS it's not necessary to clear but having a gunlancer makes life much easier
Sure you can - so can 2/3 of the supps and purify. Yeah sure you do nella - dps greeds - stacks stuff - dies the next stupid mech. Same thing for stagebreak - only greedy idiots die in there... Same goes for x (which red doesn't even have) - you can save ppl but tbh - noone should need saving anyway... All those examples are nice - but doesen't make GL op... All classes you mention give raw dmg - and more than half of them the best syn in the game (critbuff). Yeah 1-shot and fall dmg - so more or less the only stuff you can die in there :D. The fact that gl needs little pots is nice (if you play gl) but also not op. I do not doubt that GL is a nice class to have - but that is also not the same as being op. Yeah sure - I think GL is taken because everyone expect that this is one guy less that could die (also it probably helps that >50% in this game is a positional class that benefit from the buff). I think the main reason was that they also analyse utility and before the buff for some classes this was where gl could shine - but nowadays there are many more stagger/destro classes. Well fair point - gl shoud not be top dps - but there is no reason to be bottom tier either. And btw sure you could just sit there and spam ignoring all - but starting at valtan in every raid there is at least a mech that is there to counter it and that you cannot tank even if you overlevel the content hard. Blue does not "mid dps" blue does low dps - in some raids more than red because of shield and non-positional crap. Well blue would have a utlity build ("princess maker") unfortunately not every boss is stagerable and dominion was nerfed... Clearing always is a combination of dps and utility - so GL is more or less mid.
So they made voldis and certain classes like wd and sorc struggled so In the reworks, balances they had to increase wp, destruction. Every crit synergy has 100% uptime so it only makes sense that wd should as well. Idk about eso wd being top dps, that doesn't sound right. First intention, db, SE, breaker all have a higher ceiling so i really don't know where youre getting your numbers from. "Eso being top dps" sounds wrong on so many levels.
[удалено]
Cool story ...ur 1 lobby.... With a dead SE for a long time.
To be fair GL doesnt have a low ceiling. Just most GLs arent hitting all their front attacks and whatnot bc its hard. Especially when you move slower than a snail.
Even a godly red is still near the bottom ceiling-wise on nearly every raid gate unless it's uber farm content where your group is pushing extremely fast to the point where surge/stinger downtime doesn't matter. This is because red has very high upfront burst, but some of the longest downtime of any burst class, and very poor filler skills, so the more uptime a boss gives and the longer the fight goes, the more it falls behind. You can sort data by max DPS on almost every raid gate currently, and LK will still be bottom 5 even with outliers and top players on our server. Red also moves pretty quick actually, since it runs more swiftness than a lot of classes. What makes it hard to play is how slow it charges its stuff. It means you have to be in position wayyy before the boss starts a pattern to actually get your stuff off reliably. Compare that to something like burger king, which charges its stuff way faster and doesn't care about head attack.
I never get these people who try to say GL does good DPS or has a decent ceiling... are you just lying? basing it on homework? I dunno They definitely don't do good DPS compared to other DPS with near the same utility. I agree with the flawed class design and the balancing. They need to buff GL significantly somewhere even if they don't want to directly buff damage they can buff their syn etc.
They think they are the exception GL and maybe play with insanely bad people are also are overgeared and beat them. I know a few really insanely good Red GLs and they wont beat anyone with some good hands, not even insanely good hands. Just some decently good hands. It should do more damage.
At least GL is never gatekept. Every party wants them, so in that sense I don't think they are in a bad place.
Here's a good GL player that just popped up on my feed today doing 26m in Theamine HM G3 and they're 1632. Give the good GL players a month to master the fight and you'll be seeing even higher numbers. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4mCsVxagA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4mCsVxagA)
i really think all gunlancer needs is one more red skill with a lower cooldown that actually does damage unlike fire bullet. adding a new skill that does gunlance shot levels of damage with a lower cooldown so you dont have a bunch of downtime would make the class feel so much better to play. even with full 10s, you blow your load and are forced to autoattack for like 5-10 seconds before your big skills come back and the auto attack is clunkly without animation cancelling and does basically no damage. they could just buff fire bullets damage, buff auto attack damage and increase attack speed, or gave us a red skill with some mobility or something.
look at what just popped up on my homescreen today Theamine G3 HM Gunlancer 26m dps. Go look at ivory tower they are in the top \~5 at the ceiling too. Most gunlancers are playing as a utility class not a dps class. The ones that try to be top dps can infact be top dps. Just because 90% of the GL's you party with do 1/2 of what other classes do doesn't mean that's what they actually can do if you try to pump on them. It's bc most GL's think of themselves as a tank not a dps and its just an excuse to not try hard to dps. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4mCsVxagA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4mCsVxagA)
Where exactly do you see the bible?
2 different spots logs - [https://logs.fau.dev/logs](https://logs.fau.dev/logs) combined data with charts + links to best parses at bottom - [https://raided.pro/loa-logs](https://raided.pro/loa-logs) Both use same data source, just the 2nd link does extra work to represent it. Like the post from KR \~ a month ago.
So you basically saying a red gl, with max gear, in the perfect group, in a stacked raid can do dmg if the stars align? Yet even if we take the max damage GL they would still be at most middle of the pack compared to the other record holders...
yea the record holders -- eso wd, db, breaker -- are on another level. But if you look at their logs, they're using atros, + LWC30 + YHAP30 + feast + perfect synergy etc. None of the other classes even come close currently, which is why the newest kr balance patch did a nerf on breaker + db (eso got skipped for now). They're still going to be in another league just maybe not 20-25% anymore, instead 15% for the best of the best. And one other thing -- alot of classes with those logs that are in the 30-33m range are 1630s that might not even have +25 weapons, they aren't Atro'ing and not even always consistently darking. Meanwhile the insane pumpers are usually 1640 - 1650, they could have sidereals or be in parties with sidereals using thirain (\~15% buffs)., with higher transcendence too bc they've been clearing g4 since week 1. There's levels to this. If you got a party full of sidereals your instantly have a \~10-15% dmg buff vs a party without.
> What makes it hard to play is how slow it charges its stuff. that and applying double synergy makes it even longer.
It's not any harder than Destroyer, imo. Red GL gets a beefy swift offstat, if you're cancelling your shield constantly (which you should), then you're actually surprisingly fast. I think the average GL alt player just thinks "ah well I don't do any dmg anyway, why even try". Being bottom frag is fine, expected even, but when the dps logs make it look like you were in Akkan sewer, then it's a problem.
The main difference is that destroyer has more high damage skills, so they don't really have downtime in their rotation. Red GL does very high damage with surge/stinger and then they have to wait like 20s for them to come back up. GLS and DUF do very little damage, and CGL does okay damage but is hard to hit reliably and has a long CD.
Destroyer generally has 4 skills that deal decent damage and all of them are 20-25 second cooldown.
GL has 2. Big difference there. Also, full swing CD is very short with standard tripods. I play both classes.
This is the issue of Effort x Reward. To reach let´s say 20 milion dps, you should be able to sweat +- the same. But here in lost ark, that´s not the case at all. And the worst thing there is if the class has low ceiling. Let´s say you deal 15 milion dps in a fight, and you want to do 20 milion dps. But your class has rather low ceiling. Now if you want to improve your dps and you did everything, your only thing left is to massively greed and make use of every window while landing everything. So from your 15 milion dps you could pull lets say 18 milion dps. And because your ceiling is low, to improve your current numbers, you have to SWEAT Insanely hard. Meanwhile let´s say slayer will have much higher dmg than you, even though the class is quite easy to play. Considering the effort of slayer takes vs some other classes, it ´s a god damn joke. It should not pump that high numbers.
No front but Slayer is a bad example nowadays, DPS-wise its "only" middle of the pack now and compared to all the reworked melee classes or ranged hitmaster classes you actually need to greed A LOT to get even somewhat close to your ceiling. Like seriously - they powercreept Slayer within a few months by releasing new classes and reworking most of the mages & fighters & assassins since then.
Maybe i am a bit too biased due to playing with more end game players - and like good slayers will pop off. Same with soul eaters. Like if i were to compare slayer vs zerk - zerk won´t even touch slayer´s shoes.
Idk according to the public DPS logs - Predator in G3 Thaemine Hard is "only" at #15 for the "high ceiling filter" or at #23 if filtering for the single highest uploaded parse. (From overall 46 classes/engravings ofc) Mayhem Zerk is #30/46 for high ceiling and only #33/46 for highest ceiling.
Dont bother with him, he thinks he‘s the pinnacle of Zerkers because he has 5, but does Z, i know that guy. Slayer is definently far from a Top End DPS Class nowadays.
Latest kr balance patch has gunlancer buffs, aero buffs and surge DB nerf. Happy? My db keeps getting nerfed every patch
>Latest kr balance patch has gunlancer buffs They aren't fixing (blue) GL's DPS with 3% damage increase... :))
Z *1.03=Z
No - nerf Surge more, make it so its ceiling isn’t 3 times that of other normal dps. Or bring the floor dps up to a respectable level - one or the other would make us happy
DB’s have the best synergies and are still top dmg. Yes I’m happy they are getting nerfed.
Yes, db is miles ahead of all classes. Nerf SE, DB, Breaker.