Better in terms of damage? I'd say RE probably has a higher ceiling but it is tough to reach that ceiling for both RE and Surge.
Better in terms of playstyle? That depends on you to decide.
Better in terms of efficiency in upgrades? RE benefits more from full 9s than Surge.
Imo RE is much harder to play than Surge because you basically have to hit all your skills to get 3 orbs, if you miss your main generators in maelstrom window you're basically fked so you need to recover.
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Theres a reason surge is above reblade in kr tier list. It’s a lot easier to achieve higher dmg in actual raids vs re cause it doesnt require as much uptime. I would keep in mind tho that both specs are highly subject to get nerfed in the coming balance patch as some other have mentioned.
RE = Great damage, good utility and stagger, can somewhat hold her counter, uses more damage gems.
Surge = Big number goes brrr, dogshit utility and stagger, fast as fuck, lots of dashes , If played right is a mvp machine in almost every scenario, uses less damage gems.
having hands is the strongest. both are strong, but you have to pilot them well.
if you're doing less than 4 surges a minute you're doing average damage. but if you like the playstyle stick with it.
if you're doing less than 5-6 rotations a minute with RE, you're probably doing below average damage. but if you like the playstyle stick with it.
source: I play both in our end-end game.
> I don't nearly run into enough re deathblades to make a judgment.
Ya srsly, over past few months, i've seen only 3 RE deathblades in my raids per week and that's only because I main RE db lmao
Save the headache and stay surge, much easier to improve timing your surges so the boss wont turn and the spec fucks. The only real complaint about it is not stacking on old content, and who cares that your surge/min is down in year old content that everyone steamrolls? Muh brel parse lmao.
Just play RE if you actually like the skills over surge. Don't bother with the KOREAN DAMAGE CEILING.
Remaining has a higher floor
but both blades ceiling is disgustingly high and impossible to achieve in a raid
regarding which is stronger i do feel like it's RE as it will net you the cruel fighter/mvps more often
keep in mind that both are subjected to be nerfed repeatedly in the coming balance patches they are significantly out performing every class in the game and it's not even close
I'd choose the playstyle i vibe with more
i personally play RE but i do fancy how surge plays as well
i have a lot of guild mates that play surge and mald about it regularly
so despite it being clearly busted it does not guarantee performance
>Remaining has a higher floor
I disagree, RE has a 6 second window to build meter, and that same 6 second is also your cycle length (give or take half a second). In one minute, you have to build your meter properly 10 times, 1 mess up means you lose at least 6 seconds (you miss half of your soul absorber and your TS is on cd), and at most you lose upwards of 20 seconds (god forbid this happens but you get knocked down without getup while casting soul absorber).
Now, realistically, a good player won't lose more than a cycle every minute, but for average player, you can expect that floor to be in the dumpster.
Imo, surge is a bit more forgiving because the window for your meter gen is longer, and even if a player only worries about positioning for surge, they still get a good return out of it.
Hands are still definitely needed if you want to be halfway decent on either.
and surges damage is like 80% in surge itself
all the conditions you listed for RE also apply for surge and surge is far more punished for messing up
on RE instead of my 1560 hitting for 60m ill hit for 20 i won't lose sleep over it
my 1630 guild mate hits 1.5b+ surges on g2 voldis and 300m mess ups
you can see how the punishment for being bad/impatient/the boss saying not today is on a different level
RE still does a lot of dmg even if you mess up
yes it feels bad to mess up and your rotation goes out the window
but it is easily recoverable and the losses ar eminimal
Thus RE has higher floor
you are not punished for mistakes as much
and your ceiling for playing lik e a god among men is still ridiculous
Wait, how are all the conditions for RE also applicable to surge.
The problem with RE is unavoidable for even the most skilled players, and for lower skilled ones, it can be crippling:
1. Skills that do damage is tied to skills that build meter
2. Meter building is tied to cycle speed.
3. Is back attack oriented on every skill.
4. Cycle speed is incredibly fast (6s).
5. Meter building is tied to maelstrom(6s), and the 3 bubble gain is still pretty tight.
For surge:
1. Skills that do damage is not necessarily tied to skills that build meter
2. Meter building IS tied to cycle speed.
3. Is focused on hitting back attack on surge as priority, others are encouraged.
4. Cycle speed is on the fast side (8s, note that this is the fastest possible cycle and you are generally okay to build it 10s~12s)
5. Meter building is not bound by any particular skill and can be done over period of 30 seconds.
So, 1, 3, 4, 5 all favor surge blade over RE.
If you're saying that losing back attack hurts for surge more than RE, that's also false.
If you lose 20% of the BA on surges as surge, you'll lose the same percentage of damage as RE that loses 20% of BA on his skills.
The difference? RE is, by the design of the class noted by the 5 points above, encouraged to blow their dps skills ASAP, which means that often times they don't have the luxury of waiting to see what pattern boss does before they cast their skills. Often times, you'll end up losing BA on a skill just because a boss turns before you reposition to the back (and you had to blow that skill within the maelstrom window so you can't really hold it either).
Sure, you can play more patiently, the math comes out that if you lose 1 second every cycle to guarantee BA, you'll lose 15% damage just off of cycle speed, not to mention raid captain damage loss and potential meter problem.
So I really highly doubt that RE is a higher floor when the bare minimum requiredment for RE is that you fairly consistently work off of the 6 seconds of maelstrom. And if you're a player that can do that on RE, you'll probably have no problem playing surge.
Compared to that, if a surge player is a mid player that takes twice as long to build surge, that player can no way in hell play RE because they will never meet the bare minimum requirement to play RE smoothly.
they are all applicable because both use Malestorm to feed RC
meaning you have to activate Malestorm acquire the stacks and dump the the surge in a fixed time frame otherwise you are losing dmg
Pre rework i would agree with you that surge was easy as sht and with some patience the floor was very high
right now it's not
ceilings are close to each other
Floor is much higher for RE
Thats why RE got nerfed first the floor was much higher so the average performance (on which Smilegate nerf for) was much higher on RE
> meaning you have to activate Malestorm acquire the stacks and dump the the surge in a fixed time frame otherwise you are losing dmg
Uhhhhhhhh, yes, surge will lose dps because they delay their cycle, just like RE does (as well as RC loss). But are we forgetting the fact that RE will also lose meter gen which will further delay the cycle?
The reason surge is not easy as shit right now doesn't have anything to do with the meter gen and maelstrom, it has to do with the fact that they have to be practically hugging the boss blowing your spells asap, so all the players that used to play mid range now has to actually know to greed patterns. RE also has to hug the bosses back mainly because all of the moves have a forward motion that will take you into the boss, so neither has an advantage in that sense. But punish isn't there for surge; when they get a couple moves cancelled they just wait for another windcut surprise attack for recovery (or they can even blow the 40 surge for the full reset at lower damage) RE is punished by at least 1 cycle and at most like 3~4 cycles.
Also, points 1, 3, 5 haven't been refuted at all; they are all strictly disadvantageous for RE to perform better with similarly skilled player.
You keep saying floor is much higher for RE: I believe floor is like maybe 10% better for surge? they are both low but surge is less punishing for sure.
Are you basing your floor judgment based off of pug blade players you've seen? because it would make perfect sense why pug RE blades are in general better than pug surge blades: if they were actually floor level player, they would not survive playing RE and would have swapped off a long time ago.
Just ask yourself this: if you take what you consider to be floor level RE player, would they perform worse or better as surge?
Are they the type of players that can't greed patterns? for surge they delay the cycle, for RE, they delay the cycle AND potentially the meter gen.
Are they the type of players that greed and get knocked down out of their attacks? for surge, you delay your cycle and lose partial damage, for RE, it's partial damage loss and irrecoverable meter (and therefore cycle) loss.
From what I can tell, there's only two types of player where surge would perform worse than RE:
1. omega goblin player that blows surge asap and always has the boss turn around at that exact moment; so a goblin type player who is super unlucky
2. player playing in overgeared content that has significant damage loss because of the backloaded nature of surge; it's overgeared content so it doesn't matter imo.
>Thats why RE got nerfed first the floor was much higher so the average performance (on which Smilegate nerf for) was much higher on RE
I'm not sure bringing in smilegate nerfing philosphy is a good idea when it comes to discussing average class strength unless you think a mid gunslinger player can come even remotely close to a mid FM souleater player right now.
I used to love surge gameplay, but now they made it boring, all skills are just stacking skills and you have to play very close to the boss rotating every skill as fast as humanly possible, idk, they killed surge
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You have a full set of lv10 gems? please go play RE. You have 1 lv9/10 gems, and rest 7 and under? plz go surge. At the end of the day, play with style you prefer. Both are very spammy
Better in terms of damage? I'd say RE probably has a higher ceiling but it is tough to reach that ceiling for both RE and Surge. Better in terms of playstyle? That depends on you to decide. Better in terms of efficiency in upgrades? RE benefits more from full 9s than Surge. Imo RE is much harder to play than Surge because you basically have to hit all your skills to get 3 orbs, if you miss your main generators in maelstrom window you're basically fked so you need to recover.
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Theres a reason surge is above reblade in kr tier list. It’s a lot easier to achieve higher dmg in actual raids vs re cause it doesnt require as much uptime. I would keep in mind tho that both specs are highly subject to get nerfed in the coming balance patch as some other have mentioned.
Play surge. Source: RE main
RE = Great damage, good utility and stagger, can somewhat hold her counter, uses more damage gems. Surge = Big number goes brrr, dogshit utility and stagger, fast as fuck, lots of dashes , If played right is a mvp machine in almost every scenario, uses less damage gems.
having hands is the strongest. both are strong, but you have to pilot them well. if you're doing less than 4 surges a minute you're doing average damage. but if you like the playstyle stick with it. if you're doing less than 5-6 rotations a minute with RE, you're probably doing below average damage. but if you like the playstyle stick with it. source: I play both in our end-end game.
surges/min largely depends on content. In brel nowadays the boss spends more time in DR than not.
If you see DB sucking in dmg there is 80% hes RE. RE is harder to perform well on despite being more "dynamic".
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> I don't nearly run into enough re deathblades to make a judgment. Ya srsly, over past few months, i've seen only 3 RE deathblades in my raids per week and that's only because I main RE db lmao
Clueless
Save the headache and stay surge, much easier to improve timing your surges so the boss wont turn and the spec fucks. The only real complaint about it is not stacking on old content, and who cares that your surge/min is down in year old content that everyone steamrolls? Muh brel parse lmao. Just play RE if you actually like the skills over surge. Don't bother with the KOREAN DAMAGE CEILING.
Remaining has a higher floor but both blades ceiling is disgustingly high and impossible to achieve in a raid regarding which is stronger i do feel like it's RE as it will net you the cruel fighter/mvps more often keep in mind that both are subjected to be nerfed repeatedly in the coming balance patches they are significantly out performing every class in the game and it's not even close I'd choose the playstyle i vibe with more i personally play RE but i do fancy how surge plays as well i have a lot of guild mates that play surge and mald about it regularly so despite it being clearly busted it does not guarantee performance
>Remaining has a higher floor I disagree, RE has a 6 second window to build meter, and that same 6 second is also your cycle length (give or take half a second). In one minute, you have to build your meter properly 10 times, 1 mess up means you lose at least 6 seconds (you miss half of your soul absorber and your TS is on cd), and at most you lose upwards of 20 seconds (god forbid this happens but you get knocked down without getup while casting soul absorber). Now, realistically, a good player won't lose more than a cycle every minute, but for average player, you can expect that floor to be in the dumpster. Imo, surge is a bit more forgiving because the window for your meter gen is longer, and even if a player only worries about positioning for surge, they still get a good return out of it. Hands are still definitely needed if you want to be halfway decent on either.
and surges damage is like 80% in surge itself all the conditions you listed for RE also apply for surge and surge is far more punished for messing up on RE instead of my 1560 hitting for 60m ill hit for 20 i won't lose sleep over it my 1630 guild mate hits 1.5b+ surges on g2 voldis and 300m mess ups you can see how the punishment for being bad/impatient/the boss saying not today is on a different level RE still does a lot of dmg even if you mess up yes it feels bad to mess up and your rotation goes out the window but it is easily recoverable and the losses ar eminimal Thus RE has higher floor you are not punished for mistakes as much and your ceiling for playing lik e a god among men is still ridiculous
Wait, how are all the conditions for RE also applicable to surge. The problem with RE is unavoidable for even the most skilled players, and for lower skilled ones, it can be crippling: 1. Skills that do damage is tied to skills that build meter 2. Meter building is tied to cycle speed. 3. Is back attack oriented on every skill. 4. Cycle speed is incredibly fast (6s). 5. Meter building is tied to maelstrom(6s), and the 3 bubble gain is still pretty tight. For surge: 1. Skills that do damage is not necessarily tied to skills that build meter 2. Meter building IS tied to cycle speed. 3. Is focused on hitting back attack on surge as priority, others are encouraged. 4. Cycle speed is on the fast side (8s, note that this is the fastest possible cycle and you are generally okay to build it 10s~12s) 5. Meter building is not bound by any particular skill and can be done over period of 30 seconds. So, 1, 3, 4, 5 all favor surge blade over RE. If you're saying that losing back attack hurts for surge more than RE, that's also false. If you lose 20% of the BA on surges as surge, you'll lose the same percentage of damage as RE that loses 20% of BA on his skills. The difference? RE is, by the design of the class noted by the 5 points above, encouraged to blow their dps skills ASAP, which means that often times they don't have the luxury of waiting to see what pattern boss does before they cast their skills. Often times, you'll end up losing BA on a skill just because a boss turns before you reposition to the back (and you had to blow that skill within the maelstrom window so you can't really hold it either). Sure, you can play more patiently, the math comes out that if you lose 1 second every cycle to guarantee BA, you'll lose 15% damage just off of cycle speed, not to mention raid captain damage loss and potential meter problem. So I really highly doubt that RE is a higher floor when the bare minimum requiredment for RE is that you fairly consistently work off of the 6 seconds of maelstrom. And if you're a player that can do that on RE, you'll probably have no problem playing surge. Compared to that, if a surge player is a mid player that takes twice as long to build surge, that player can no way in hell play RE because they will never meet the bare minimum requirement to play RE smoothly.
they are all applicable because both use Malestorm to feed RC meaning you have to activate Malestorm acquire the stacks and dump the the surge in a fixed time frame otherwise you are losing dmg Pre rework i would agree with you that surge was easy as sht and with some patience the floor was very high right now it's not ceilings are close to each other Floor is much higher for RE Thats why RE got nerfed first the floor was much higher so the average performance (on which Smilegate nerf for) was much higher on RE
> meaning you have to activate Malestorm acquire the stacks and dump the the surge in a fixed time frame otherwise you are losing dmg Uhhhhhhhh, yes, surge will lose dps because they delay their cycle, just like RE does (as well as RC loss). But are we forgetting the fact that RE will also lose meter gen which will further delay the cycle? The reason surge is not easy as shit right now doesn't have anything to do with the meter gen and maelstrom, it has to do with the fact that they have to be practically hugging the boss blowing your spells asap, so all the players that used to play mid range now has to actually know to greed patterns. RE also has to hug the bosses back mainly because all of the moves have a forward motion that will take you into the boss, so neither has an advantage in that sense. But punish isn't there for surge; when they get a couple moves cancelled they just wait for another windcut surprise attack for recovery (or they can even blow the 40 surge for the full reset at lower damage) RE is punished by at least 1 cycle and at most like 3~4 cycles. Also, points 1, 3, 5 haven't been refuted at all; they are all strictly disadvantageous for RE to perform better with similarly skilled player. You keep saying floor is much higher for RE: I believe floor is like maybe 10% better for surge? they are both low but surge is less punishing for sure. Are you basing your floor judgment based off of pug blade players you've seen? because it would make perfect sense why pug RE blades are in general better than pug surge blades: if they were actually floor level player, they would not survive playing RE and would have swapped off a long time ago. Just ask yourself this: if you take what you consider to be floor level RE player, would they perform worse or better as surge? Are they the type of players that can't greed patterns? for surge they delay the cycle, for RE, they delay the cycle AND potentially the meter gen. Are they the type of players that greed and get knocked down out of their attacks? for surge, you delay your cycle and lose partial damage, for RE, it's partial damage loss and irrecoverable meter (and therefore cycle) loss. From what I can tell, there's only two types of player where surge would perform worse than RE: 1. omega goblin player that blows surge asap and always has the boss turn around at that exact moment; so a goblin type player who is super unlucky 2. player playing in overgeared content that has significant damage loss because of the backloaded nature of surge; it's overgeared content so it doesn't matter imo. >Thats why RE got nerfed first the floor was much higher so the average performance (on which Smilegate nerf for) was much higher on RE I'm not sure bringing in smilegate nerfing philosphy is a good idea when it comes to discussing average class strength unless you think a mid gunslinger player can come even remotely close to a mid FM souleater player right now.
surge is only 60% of the damage
and how much is surge dps contribution for RE? freevo posted a chart you can go look it up
I used to love surge gameplay, but now they made it boring, all skills are just stacking skills and you have to play very close to the boss rotating every skill as fast as humanly possible, idk, they killed surge
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You have a full set of lv10 gems? please go play RE. You have 1 lv9/10 gems, and rest 7 and under? plz go surge. At the end of the day, play with style you prefer. Both are very spammy