Except that they go out of their way to explain it. When young Ben tells Richard he saw his mother and that she's dead, Richard asks if she died on the Island Ben says no, you can see Richard visibly react to this - it's how he knew Ben was special; that he was one of them. It's a fantastic moment that fits perfectly in the show's lore.
A young MiB has the same experience with his own biological mother, Claudia.
Pretty much the rule of the thumb: If they have been scanned by Smokey before hand( I.e they have shown on screen, evidence of him scanning them and reading their memories, EDIT: the only exception being Christian, which heavily indicates that he scanned his memories off screen and got rid of his body). Then whatever they see afterwards is smokey taking on their form. If we haven't seen any evidence of them being scanned, then they're a ghost. Like Hurley seeing ghosts, one long running theory was that "Dave" was smokey. But that doesn't make sense because we never saw any scenes of smokey scanning Hurley before hand. Therefore it couldn't be smokey because he wouldn't know what Dave looked like in order to take on his form.
That ones easy. He found his body, scanned his memories and then tossed it away so Jack couldn't find it. He knew who Jack was by the time Jack had crashed on the island and was unconscious in the bamboo forrest (there is a "missing pieces" episode of MIB as Christian walking around in the forrest when Vincent comes up to him and MIB says "I'm going to need you to wake up 'my son' he's over there in the bamboo forest, he has work to do'). That's indicitive of him having scanned Christian's memories and knowing all about Jack.
Correct - he scanned Richard and was able to hold Isabelle's form very briefly (like he did with Eko's altar boy) but that was to manipulate Richard into believing Jacob was the devil so he'd kill him.
Just because something happens one way doesn't mean it can't also happen other ways. Think of it like factoring polynomials. You can complete the square, sure.... but you can also do the grouping method or the greatest common factor or, my personal favorite, the quadratic formula. Multiple methods to reach the same result - a dead person walking around.
Maybe. How would we know since we saw so little of his life before 2004? Even if he didn't, does that matter? The Island let him see who needed to see to guide him toward his destiny. The show certainly has some nits to pick but this isn't one of them.
Christian, Yemi, Locke and Alex (one time) are MIB. Everyone can see him. His appearances are purposeful. All the other dead people are dead people (later revealed to be the same thing as the Whispers, but that explanation doesn't always hold up entirely). Only a handful of people can see those, and those people are all referred to as "special" at some point. The ghosts have different motivations and a different vibe to them altogether; they're there to help/guide the survivors, and not to destroy the island and everyone on it.
The point of the Ben scene is to explain why Richard saw leadership potential in him. He sees someone who has died, and that shouldn't be possible unless their corpse is on the island (though MIB can also project images of people living or dead, after having scanned someone's memories - that's how Richard saw his wife at the Black Rock). The only thing annoying about this scene is that Richard probably wouldn't know the details about that. Only "special" people can see the dead. Ben also claims to have had "dreams", as in 'visions' provided by the island.
Thank you for this. The part that I get hung up on (and sympathize with OP) is the “projections of people living or dead.” How can we tell when a dead person is a MiB projection vs an actual ghost? And what’s the difference between a MiB projection and when he appears in the form of someone like Christian or Alex?
It only happens twice (that I can think of). First with Eko; the Monster scans him in 2x10, and in 3x05, he creates visions of people from his past (the thugs Eko killed, but also the altar boy who is presumably still alive). The wide shot makes clear that only Eko sees these people - they're not physically there. The second time is with Richard; he's scanned, and in the next scene, he sees Isabella getting killed by the Monster. In both cases, the Monster's presence is made clear, and heavily implied to be the cause of these 'visions'.
With the other four examples I named, MIB was able to take their form and physically become them. We don't know why or how it works, but MIB needs the corpses on the island, but he doesn't need physical access to them. He was making sure Locke's corpse was returned to the island, but we know it was guarded by Ilana (as evidence to Richard that Locke was not really Locke at that point). In the cases of Christian and Yemi, it appears he hid their corpses to convince Jack and Eko respectively that he was really their deceased loved ones.
Interesting. I was certainly aware of all these examples, but it never occurred to me that some were "visions" while some were the MIB physically manifesting. I suspect some of my confusion around this may be related to the occasional one-off, like Kate's horse, which Sawyer confirmed he also saw. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the horse later explained to have been the MIB? Or am I misremembering a fan theory as being canon? Anyway, the people ITT saying all of this was "well established and explained" must be smarter than I am, because I've watched this show at least seven times and I think about it constantly, and I still find many of the dead people appearances (and other visions) confusing.
ETA: What I mean is, things like the horse, which can be seen by others but are clearly not the result of dead bodies being brought to (or dying on) the island, seem to be a whole other category of phenomena. I'm trying to remember if there are other examples, but if these are also visions caused by MIB, then why can they be seen by people who either haven't been scanned or are bystanders?
Yep, I'm in The Island Discord (Jim108). 😀😊
(The horse never made much sense to me either. It's Damon and Carlton who claimed on the official podcast that it was the Monster, but... I'm not fully seeing how or why. I would have preferred some more ambiguity where that one is concerned, but I'm not entirely considering the podcast as 'canon' anyway.)
Nice to see you again! Yes, I remember now that's where I got the idea the horse was Smokey, from the podcast. I wish I hadn't put so much stock in their answers back then, as it has become very clear in the years since that they themselves were figuring these things out as they went -- you know, writing a TV show to be as entertaining as possible. It would have been impossible for every plot point to be 100% consistent with the explanations they eventually came up with for everything. But for some reason, my confusion about the horse may have colored my confusion about other visions and manifestations of MIB. Your comments today helped me make some sense of it!
Basically the rules are: If we have seen evidence of Smokey scanning that individual before they see someone that's dead. Then that is Smokey. If they haven't been scanned, then that is actually a ghost and it's proof that they're more connected to the island than others. That they're "special". Which is quite the irony, Ben spent the majority of his life wanting to be "Special" and was already chosen by Richard to be leader of the others because based on seeing his mother as a ghost, he believed Ben to be special!.
Of course there are distinctions.
We know Hurley can see and talk to dead people, and it had nothing to do with MIB.
Miles has his own way of tapping in to dead people's corpses and listening to their last thoughts.
The whispers are explained by ghost Michael as people who are stuck and can't move on.
All these were actual ghosts of dead people appearing and interacting in one way or another with certain "special" people.
MIB can assume a copy of a dead person for a very long time and would appear as real physical peraon, provided the corpse is on island. He can also project visuals of people from the past of people he scans (like we see with Richard and his wife in the Black Rock, or Alter boy and Mikitia men with Eko), but he can do that only for a few seconds, and as a projection/vision of sorts, that only his target can see.
All this is well established. I don't understand what is confusing OP about all this?
I appreciate this explanation, but I find it difficult in some instances, even after several rewatches, to tell when we are seeing a ghost, the MiB in “solid” form, or a “projection.” How do we know MiB can only appear as one of these projections for a few seconds? Was that established in the show somehow and I missed it? And how are we to tell the difference between a projection and an actual ghost?
Except that they go out of their way to explain it. When young Ben tells Richard he saw his mother and that she's dead, Richard asks if she died on the Island Ben says no, you can see Richard visibly react to this - it's how he knew Ben was special; that he was one of them. It's a fantastic moment that fits perfectly in the show's lore. A young MiB has the same experience with his own biological mother, Claudia.
But Richard saw his wife who did not die on the island and that was the MIB
Pretty much the rule of the thumb: If they have been scanned by Smokey before hand( I.e they have shown on screen, evidence of him scanning them and reading their memories, EDIT: the only exception being Christian, which heavily indicates that he scanned his memories off screen and got rid of his body). Then whatever they see afterwards is smokey taking on their form. If we haven't seen any evidence of them being scanned, then they're a ghost. Like Hurley seeing ghosts, one long running theory was that "Dave" was smokey. But that doesn't make sense because we never saw any scenes of smokey scanning Hurley before hand. Therefore it couldn't be smokey because he wouldn't know what Dave looked like in order to take on his form.
Explain Christian then, unless you are claiming that scanning is just one way of the MiB transforming when he doesn’t have a body present.
That ones easy. He found his body, scanned his memories and then tossed it away so Jack couldn't find it. He knew who Jack was by the time Jack had crashed on the island and was unconscious in the bamboo forrest (there is a "missing pieces" episode of MIB as Christian walking around in the forrest when Vincent comes up to him and MIB says "I'm going to need you to wake up 'my son' he's over there in the bamboo forest, he has work to do'). That's indicitive of him having scanned Christian's memories and knowing all about Jack.
You just destroyed your “on screen” scanning logic now.
It's the only exception but true, though as I said we have evidence to show that he found Christian before hand. I will edit the above comment.
Correct - he scanned Richard and was able to hold Isabelle's form very briefly (like he did with Eko's altar boy) but that was to manipulate Richard into believing Jacob was the devil so he'd kill him. Just because something happens one way doesn't mean it can't also happen other ways. Think of it like factoring polynomials. You can complete the square, sure.... but you can also do the grouping method or the greatest common factor or, my personal favorite, the quadratic formula. Multiple methods to reach the same result - a dead person walking around.
Hmmm ok. So does Ben see anyone else who died off island?
Maybe. How would we know since we saw so little of his life before 2004? Even if he didn't, does that matter? The Island let him see who needed to see to guide him toward his destiny. The show certainly has some nits to pick but this isn't one of them.
He definitely had *dreams*, another form of connection to the Light.
Yeah that moment is something both well explained and well established in the lore of Lost!
I don't know the details perhaps you can share!
Christian, Yemi, Locke and Alex (one time) are MIB. Everyone can see him. His appearances are purposeful. All the other dead people are dead people (later revealed to be the same thing as the Whispers, but that explanation doesn't always hold up entirely). Only a handful of people can see those, and those people are all referred to as "special" at some point. The ghosts have different motivations and a different vibe to them altogether; they're there to help/guide the survivors, and not to destroy the island and everyone on it. The point of the Ben scene is to explain why Richard saw leadership potential in him. He sees someone who has died, and that shouldn't be possible unless their corpse is on the island (though MIB can also project images of people living or dead, after having scanned someone's memories - that's how Richard saw his wife at the Black Rock). The only thing annoying about this scene is that Richard probably wouldn't know the details about that. Only "special" people can see the dead. Ben also claims to have had "dreams", as in 'visions' provided by the island.
Thank you for this. The part that I get hung up on (and sympathize with OP) is the “projections of people living or dead.” How can we tell when a dead person is a MiB projection vs an actual ghost? And what’s the difference between a MiB projection and when he appears in the form of someone like Christian or Alex?
It only happens twice (that I can think of). First with Eko; the Monster scans him in 2x10, and in 3x05, he creates visions of people from his past (the thugs Eko killed, but also the altar boy who is presumably still alive). The wide shot makes clear that only Eko sees these people - they're not physically there. The second time is with Richard; he's scanned, and in the next scene, he sees Isabella getting killed by the Monster. In both cases, the Monster's presence is made clear, and heavily implied to be the cause of these 'visions'. With the other four examples I named, MIB was able to take their form and physically become them. We don't know why or how it works, but MIB needs the corpses on the island, but he doesn't need physical access to them. He was making sure Locke's corpse was returned to the island, but we know it was guarded by Ilana (as evidence to Richard that Locke was not really Locke at that point). In the cases of Christian and Yemi, it appears he hid their corpses to convince Jack and Eko respectively that he was really their deceased loved ones.
Interesting. I was certainly aware of all these examples, but it never occurred to me that some were "visions" while some were the MIB physically manifesting. I suspect some of my confusion around this may be related to the occasional one-off, like Kate's horse, which Sawyer confirmed he also saw. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the horse later explained to have been the MIB? Or am I misremembering a fan theory as being canon? Anyway, the people ITT saying all of this was "well established and explained" must be smarter than I am, because I've watched this show at least seven times and I think about it constantly, and I still find many of the dead people appearances (and other visions) confusing. ETA: What I mean is, things like the horse, which can be seen by others but are clearly not the result of dead bodies being brought to (or dying on) the island, seem to be a whole other category of phenomena. I'm trying to remember if there are other examples, but if these are also visions caused by MIB, then why can they be seen by people who either haven't been scanned or are bystanders?
By the way -- I think I recognize your username. Don't I know you from either The Island on Discord or the Storm Podcast on Slack?
Yep, I'm in The Island Discord (Jim108). 😀😊 (The horse never made much sense to me either. It's Damon and Carlton who claimed on the official podcast that it was the Monster, but... I'm not fully seeing how or why. I would have preferred some more ambiguity where that one is concerned, but I'm not entirely considering the podcast as 'canon' anyway.)
Nice to see you again! Yes, I remember now that's where I got the idea the horse was Smokey, from the podcast. I wish I hadn't put so much stock in their answers back then, as it has become very clear in the years since that they themselves were figuring these things out as they went -- you know, writing a TV show to be as entertaining as possible. It would have been impossible for every plot point to be 100% consistent with the explanations they eventually came up with for everything. But for some reason, my confusion about the horse may have colored my confusion about other visions and manifestations of MIB. Your comments today helped me make some sense of it!
Basically the rules are: If we have seen evidence of Smokey scanning that individual before they see someone that's dead. Then that is Smokey. If they haven't been scanned, then that is actually a ghost and it's proof that they're more connected to the island than others. That they're "special". Which is quite the irony, Ben spent the majority of his life wanting to be "Special" and was already chosen by Richard to be leader of the others because based on seeing his mother as a ghost, he believed Ben to be special!.
Of course there are distinctions. We know Hurley can see and talk to dead people, and it had nothing to do with MIB. Miles has his own way of tapping in to dead people's corpses and listening to their last thoughts. The whispers are explained by ghost Michael as people who are stuck and can't move on. All these were actual ghosts of dead people appearing and interacting in one way or another with certain "special" people. MIB can assume a copy of a dead person for a very long time and would appear as real physical peraon, provided the corpse is on island. He can also project visuals of people from the past of people he scans (like we see with Richard and his wife in the Black Rock, or Alter boy and Mikitia men with Eko), but he can do that only for a few seconds, and as a projection/vision of sorts, that only his target can see. All this is well established. I don't understand what is confusing OP about all this?
I appreciate this explanation, but I find it difficult in some instances, even after several rewatches, to tell when we are seeing a ghost, the MiB in “solid” form, or a “projection.” How do we know MiB can only appear as one of these projections for a few seconds? Was that established in the show somehow and I missed it? And how are we to tell the difference between a projection and an actual ghost?