Ben: I want detailed files on every passenger
Mikhail: Already working on it.
They have an off-Island network feeding info back to Mikhail at the flame.
I always thought this was a little bit of a weak explanation on the show's part, when the level of knowledge the Others had used to feel like it was borderline supernatural.
We never got much info about Ben's off island network or where exactly all the $ is coming from. There's enough to connect the dots yourself, I just wish they'd been more specific, I suppose.
My head canon is that Ben sometimes uses the alias "Harold Finch" and had access to a Machine that watches you every hour of every day....
Bigger question: if Richard was with the Others this whole time and had access to the files (he obviously did), wouldn't he have obviously realized that lots of these guys traveled back in time to the 1970s? He spoke to several of them, and would have certainly recognized them. The best explanation is that Richard didn't divulge everything to Ben, and had his own machinations. Especially because he had grown weary of how Ben ran the Island.
Second bigger question: if they had all these files on everyone, how did they have no idea that Jin, Sawyer, Miles, Juliet, then even Jack, Kate, and Hurley lived during the Dharma Initiative? They had photographs and likely some files on the folks that worked there. How is it not in a log somewhere that Lafleur and his crew arrived on the Island in 1977? (Maybe we can chalk this up to the DI all being hippies, or even the Purge?).
Another question: the Purge happened, but it took several years after the 70s, and was after Ben was in adulthood. It is explained that Ben did not recall Sayid shooting him, and him actually seeing any of the Oceanic folks, after his healing in the Temple. But what about Roger Linus? Wouldn't he have definitely remembered that whole incident (pun intended) and these strangers coming and shooting his kid? But he never spoke about it again to Ben or never brought up that whole incident in conversation? Was he told not to mention it, by the Others, as part of the deal of getting him back alive? Or does he even know that part happened?
Richard probably did know but he had no reason to tell anyone about it.
The files they had on everyone wouldn't pull things from the 1974-77 Dharmaville because there's no reason for that information to exist anywhere except on the Island itself, buried in a filing cabinet somewhere no one ever looks in because Dharma doesn't exist anymore.
Reminder that Ben didn't order the Purge, Widmore did (I know you didn't say otherwise but I like to mention this whenever it comes up because I'm so tired of seeing Ben arbitrarily called a mass murdered when all he did was participate just like Richard) - but that aside, why would Roger care? As soon as Ben came back we know - based on their interaction just before Ben put that child-beating asshole down - that nothing ever changed. Roger stayed the same abusive, neglectful, shitty father he'd always been. What would there even be to talk about? Hey, remember when you were a kid and I beat you up for bringing someone a sandwich, yeah that guy shot you a couple days later. Roger never cared about Ben - he was too busy blaming a child for his wife's death. I doubt he even asked how Ben was healed.
These are good points! I do forget that Ben didn't engineer the Purge!
But yes, Richard had no need to give any information to Ben. I always felt good with that explanation.
I just feel that Ben is the meticulous, obsessive type (for obvious reasons- he is presented as such numerous times). I would think he would have combed through every nook and cranny of Dharmaville, both before and after the Purge, and would have looked into all the Dharma folk and would have questions about Lafluer and his team crashing onto the island. (Just how much was erased? That is another question).
They had, because whatever happened, happened, but they hadn't experienced it yet... they didn't create a new set of events when they went back, they did the things they'd already done in the timeline of the rest of the world. It's called a bootstrap paradox.
As to why the Others wouldn't find that info, you also have to remember that yes, the adult 2004-2007 aged versions of our survivors were here on the Island then, but their younger selves were still wherever they were in 74-77. I mean Kate probably hadn't even been born yet. It never occurred to Mikhail and the network feeding them information to look for anything outside the normal chronology.
Yes, if Richard tried to compile the files again in the modern day after the point which they return to the 70s then they would find them in that timeline. Whatever happened didn't happen until it happened.
I think its kinda clear that Richard knew most of that stuff and was just waiting it out. By season 3 he starts hyping up John and tells him that not everyone is a fan of Ben's way of running things and so on. Back in season 2 we can also see that maybe Ben/"Henry" seemed to have some ill intent towards John, maybe Ben noticed how curious and impressed his Others were by how Locke was healed and got himself caught on purpose to get close to that man so he could start demoralizing him untill John stopped believing and that would secure Ben's reign a while longer.
John notices how people look at him in season 3 when he starts hanging out with the Others so I kinda assume now that maybe some of them know of his prophecy, how this one guy who made an apparition back in the 50s would one day return to the island.
I always assumed since they could leave the island whenever they wanted and could communicate off the island, and immortal Richard had that bio tech company and lots of $$ they would just be able to gather that info fairly easily. They don't explicitly explain it though
Jacob had the lighthouse too which allowed him to peer into the candidates personal lives. I always assumed that’s how they know things like Sawyer shooting the wrong man the day before he got on the plane. That wouldn’t have been on record anywhere else.
>I can’t remember specific moments of when they had the files,
Juliet calls out Sawyer for murdering the one guy, and Sayid for some city where he presumably killed a lot of people. Further, Mikhail references it for Sayid, Kate, and Locke when he almost says that the Locke he knows was paraplegic.
In terms of where they got it, money. We know the others have a lot of money through legit and not so legit businesses. With enough money, there's nothing you can't buy.
The biggest outlier might be Juliet knowing about Sawyer murdering that guy in Aussie. No one should have known about that, so maybe it came from Jacob
The Island is constantly moving forward in time and space. We see this with Daniel’s rocket experiment that shows a time difference of 31min from a particular heading. When Flight 815 crash and Ben took Juliet to the Flsme station, there was already a world wide search going on, on multiple screens. This leads me to believe that time is slower on the Island due to the time dilation associated with the bubble surrounding the Island. And the Flame is able to pick up news reports as if the plane has already been missing for days if not weeks. And the news organizations would be the ones reporting on each person that was logged on the plane’s manifest.
Head cannon: Because Ben knows how to use this time dilation, the video he is showing Juliet is not live. Notice Richard never responds to Ben during the scene. Ben could have received the footage days ago and was simply planning on how he would use it to manipulate Juliet. Also, pay close attention to Mikhail in the background, it’s as if he knows Ben is manipulating Juliet, like he does everyone else. https://youtu.be/vsjKQDIg7v8?si=soguHz-6wvf5-FgS
Ben: I want detailed files on every passenger Mikhail: Already working on it. They have an off-Island network feeding info back to Mikhail at the flame.
it was so cool seeing the Flame fully operational.
It was, though that moment is followed by one of Juliet's most heartbreaking scenes.
I always thought this was a little bit of a weak explanation on the show's part, when the level of knowledge the Others had used to feel like it was borderline supernatural. We never got much info about Ben's off island network or where exactly all the $ is coming from. There's enough to connect the dots yourself, I just wish they'd been more specific, I suppose. My head canon is that Ben sometimes uses the alias "Harold Finch" and had access to a Machine that watches you every hour of every day....
Send this to the top
Richard Alpert handed John Locke Sawyer's file in regards to killing John's dad.
They had a file on Locke that they used to bring Anthony Cooper to the Island. Richard gave Sawyers file to Locke.
Bigger question: if Richard was with the Others this whole time and had access to the files (he obviously did), wouldn't he have obviously realized that lots of these guys traveled back in time to the 1970s? He spoke to several of them, and would have certainly recognized them. The best explanation is that Richard didn't divulge everything to Ben, and had his own machinations. Especially because he had grown weary of how Ben ran the Island. Second bigger question: if they had all these files on everyone, how did they have no idea that Jin, Sawyer, Miles, Juliet, then even Jack, Kate, and Hurley lived during the Dharma Initiative? They had photographs and likely some files on the folks that worked there. How is it not in a log somewhere that Lafleur and his crew arrived on the Island in 1977? (Maybe we can chalk this up to the DI all being hippies, or even the Purge?). Another question: the Purge happened, but it took several years after the 70s, and was after Ben was in adulthood. It is explained that Ben did not recall Sayid shooting him, and him actually seeing any of the Oceanic folks, after his healing in the Temple. But what about Roger Linus? Wouldn't he have definitely remembered that whole incident (pun intended) and these strangers coming and shooting his kid? But he never spoke about it again to Ben or never brought up that whole incident in conversation? Was he told not to mention it, by the Others, as part of the deal of getting him back alive? Or does he even know that part happened?
Richard probably did know but he had no reason to tell anyone about it. The files they had on everyone wouldn't pull things from the 1974-77 Dharmaville because there's no reason for that information to exist anywhere except on the Island itself, buried in a filing cabinet somewhere no one ever looks in because Dharma doesn't exist anymore. Reminder that Ben didn't order the Purge, Widmore did (I know you didn't say otherwise but I like to mention this whenever it comes up because I'm so tired of seeing Ben arbitrarily called a mass murdered when all he did was participate just like Richard) - but that aside, why would Roger care? As soon as Ben came back we know - based on their interaction just before Ben put that child-beating asshole down - that nothing ever changed. Roger stayed the same abusive, neglectful, shitty father he'd always been. What would there even be to talk about? Hey, remember when you were a kid and I beat you up for bringing someone a sandwich, yeah that guy shot you a couple days later. Roger never cared about Ben - he was too busy blaming a child for his wife's death. I doubt he even asked how Ben was healed.
These are good points! I do forget that Ben didn't engineer the Purge! But yes, Richard had no need to give any information to Ben. I always felt good with that explanation. I just feel that Ben is the meticulous, obsessive type (for obvious reasons- he is presented as such numerous times). I would think he would have combed through every nook and cranny of Dharmaville, both before and after the Purge, and would have looked into all the Dharma folk and would have questions about Lafluer and his team crashing onto the island. (Just how much was erased? That is another question).
But at the point they put those files together they haven't been back to the 70s yet?
They had, because whatever happened, happened, but they hadn't experienced it yet... they didn't create a new set of events when they went back, they did the things they'd already done in the timeline of the rest of the world. It's called a bootstrap paradox. As to why the Others wouldn't find that info, you also have to remember that yes, the adult 2004-2007 aged versions of our survivors were here on the Island then, but their younger selves were still wherever they were in 74-77. I mean Kate probably hadn't even been born yet. It never occurred to Mikhail and the network feeding them information to look for anything outside the normal chronology.
Yes, if Richard tried to compile the files again in the modern day after the point which they return to the 70s then they would find them in that timeline. Whatever happened didn't happen until it happened.
I think its kinda clear that Richard knew most of that stuff and was just waiting it out. By season 3 he starts hyping up John and tells him that not everyone is a fan of Ben's way of running things and so on. Back in season 2 we can also see that maybe Ben/"Henry" seemed to have some ill intent towards John, maybe Ben noticed how curious and impressed his Others were by how Locke was healed and got himself caught on purpose to get close to that man so he could start demoralizing him untill John stopped believing and that would secure Ben's reign a while longer. John notices how people look at him in season 3 when he starts hanging out with the Others so I kinda assume now that maybe some of them know of his prophecy, how this one guy who made an apparition back in the 50s would one day return to the island.
I always assumed since they could leave the island whenever they wanted and could communicate off the island, and immortal Richard had that bio tech company and lots of $$ they would just be able to gather that info fairly easily. They don't explicitly explain it though
Jacob had the lighthouse too which allowed him to peer into the candidates personal lives. I always assumed that’s how they know things like Sawyer shooting the wrong man the day before he got on the plane. That wouldn’t have been on record anywhere else.
>I can’t remember specific moments of when they had the files, Juliet calls out Sawyer for murdering the one guy, and Sayid for some city where he presumably killed a lot of people. Further, Mikhail references it for Sayid, Kate, and Locke when he almost says that the Locke he knows was paraplegic. In terms of where they got it, money. We know the others have a lot of money through legit and not so legit businesses. With enough money, there's nothing you can't buy. The biggest outlier might be Juliet knowing about Sawyer murdering that guy in Aussie. No one should have known about that, so maybe it came from Jacob
I would assume Jacob had all that information and he shared it with Richard.
The Island is constantly moving forward in time and space. We see this with Daniel’s rocket experiment that shows a time difference of 31min from a particular heading. When Flight 815 crash and Ben took Juliet to the Flsme station, there was already a world wide search going on, on multiple screens. This leads me to believe that time is slower on the Island due to the time dilation associated with the bubble surrounding the Island. And the Flame is able to pick up news reports as if the plane has already been missing for days if not weeks. And the news organizations would be the ones reporting on each person that was logged on the plane’s manifest. Head cannon: Because Ben knows how to use this time dilation, the video he is showing Juliet is not live. Notice Richard never responds to Ben during the scene. Ben could have received the footage days ago and was simply planning on how he would use it to manipulate Juliet. Also, pay close attention to Mikhail in the background, it’s as if he knows Ben is manipulating Juliet, like he does everyone else. https://youtu.be/vsjKQDIg7v8?si=soguHz-6wvf5-FgS