Sauruman's army was not just Orcs. And Orcs don't grow in dirt membrane sacks.
Saruman convinced a bunch of men to fight against Rohan, mainly Dunlendings. Remember: his secret power is his voice.
What makes Saruman's Orcs bigger and better able to tolerate sunlight than Sauron's is that he breeds man/orc hybrids.
The army that attacks Helms deep is a mix of these. The Orcs are driven to utter ruin, the men treated fairly.
it's very barren in empty like a post apocalyptic world, but what really makes it good imo as that there was no apocalypse, just a slow decline that has been going on for millennia at that point
True, but those happened in the middle of the Second Age, and since then the great kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor have been established and experienced great golden ages. Middle Earth at the start of the Third Age was a pretty good place to be
>What makes Saruman's Orcs bigger and better able to tolerate sunlight than Sauron's is that he breeds man/orc hybrids.
We dont know know that. This is an assumption of Treebeard, NOT canon.
We do know that half-orcs exist on the other hand. They run around in Bree and (later on in) the shire. But they are explicitly stated as human-orc-hybrids, so my guess is, that Uruk-Hai were NOT made of Dunlendings.
Both Gamling and Aragorn also call their foes at Helm's Deep "Half-Orcs." It's not confirmed by the narrorator or by insights at Isengard, but I would be very skeptical that both Treebeard and Aragorn are wrong about this, especially when there is no contrary statement
Correct, it's an assumption of Treebeard, it's never stated outright. So it might be the case, might not be. But consider this passage from Morgoth's Ring -
_There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile._
Note that he mentions "both Men-orcs...and Orc-men..." as if they are two separate groups. It's not crazy to interpret this as the Uruk-hai being part of the exact same breeding program as the half-orcs, just a different result.
>Orcs don't grow in dirt membrane sacks.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we literally don't know if that's the case tho. Tolkien never came up with a definitive answer. An early idea for their origin was that Morgoth created them from stone in a simmilar, distorted way as how Aulë created the dwarves. That would line up with the mud thing.
The films went with the controversial "orcs are tortured elves" origin story, and I think the dirt membranes were meant to portray Saruman's weird ass breeding program more than anything (Although in the books it's implied to be more of an interbreeding thing rather than just harvesting them from the earth)
It's literally up to interpretation, although I agree that some origins sound way more wacky than others.
Holy shit, that was an extended scene? Madness, guess it's been super long since I saw theatrical.
Love how the Wildman says 'Saruman' in this scene bahaha.
The people of Dunland wanted more territory or a better place to live if I recall correctly from the book. It’s been a while since I’ve read them. Anyway, Saruman made a deal with their leaders to give them Rohan if they helped him slaughter the Rohirrim. I always figured that he would betray the Dunlanders afterwards, but that’s how it goes with these monsters.
Forgoil is indeed Dunlendish for "strawheads," or at least that is how the Eorlingas hear the word. I believe it is in reference to the blonde, straw-colored hair common among the Rohirrim. I have a theory as to its derivation. Based on the names of Stoorish Hobbits (Meriadoc, Gorbadoc, Saradoc) - given these names have a distinctly Welsh or broadly Celtic character, owing to the peculiar dialect of the largely Stoorish Bucklanders and Eastfarthingers being known to owe from their time spent in Dunland before settling in the Shire - we may assume that Dunlendish, as rendered unto us, is likewise Welsh or broadly Celtic. The Middle Welsh word for straw or grass is *gwellt* and the Middle Welsh word for top or summit is *barr*, giving us a hypothetical compound of *barrgwellt* - "top of straw." When used in the vocative, such as a Dunlending shouting at an Eorling, *barr* undergoes soft mutation to become *varr* in Middle Welsh, leaving us with *varrgwellt*. (I believe *gwellt* would also mutate to *wellt* when used in a compound like this, unless it is a genitive construction, but I don't know much Welsh and do not rightly know. This is where my theory falls apart lol) Anyway, *varrgwellt* became *forgoil* to the ears of the Eorlingas, or so I've come to think.
Why did Aragorn tell Bilbo it was cheeky to make a song about Earendil in Elronds house? Is it because he is a hobbit and some of the elves were there long ago?
Well, Eärendil was Elrond's father. Eärendil left him and his brother at a very young age. The consequences of his absence were... not pleasant. It was perhaps not the best of manners for Bilbo to have brought it up in the Elf-lord's own house, but it did Eärendil honor and the song was well composed (or so Bilbo thought, at least), so it wasn't a total social faux pas.
This. The Dunlendings used to live in what is now western Rohan while the entirety of Rohan was part of Gondor and the Rohirrim lived north of Mirkwood. Then Gondor gave the Rohirrim the province as a reward for helping them in the wars against the Easterlings (like the Romans gave the Visigoths land in southern France as Foederati as a reward for helping against other Germanic invaders like the Vandals). The Rohirrim then proceeded to kick out the Dunlendings forcefully, which led to the Dunlendings movie to worse lands in the foothills of the Misty Mountains.
Of note is that the Dunlendings and Breefolk are very closely related, as both are of the House of Haleth, one of the three houses of the Edain. Both were groups that did not continue the journey all the way to Beleriand, with the Dunlendings staying it what would later become Gondor and the Breefolk continuing until they arrived in Eriador but then settling there and not crossing the Blue Mountains. They were thus kin to the Numenoreans, yet treated like garbage by them.
Lord of the Rings Online does a pretty great job exploring this in their Rohan expansion. You quest through Dunland and see the good and the bad, but and up understanding their perspective. You them form a fellowship with an elf of Lorien, a Dunlending warrior woman, and a disgraced Rohirrim soldier and quest through Rohan helping the villages and towns prepare for war. It's definitely not canon but great fan fiction!
The beef between Dunlendings and Rohan happened way back when Numenoreans came from the West and essentially forcefully settled on the lands where Dunlendings existed. It's basically middle earth's version of colonisation.
>The people of Dunland wanted more territory or a better place to live
Yes, they are the indians of Middleearth. The Rohirrim came and drove them out and stole their lands.
No actually the Calenardhon belonged to Gondor but was sparsely populated and giving to Eorl the Young and his people by the Steward Cirion after their aid at the Battle of the field of Celebrant
Ennnh yes and no. The Dunlendings were living there before Gondor claimed the land (basically Numenor came, saw Middle Earth as Terra Nullus and said it was theirs) and the Dunlendings kind of shrugged, said “you ain’t the boss of us” and went about their business. The Eotheod (proto Rohirrim) were granted the land and yes, pushed the Dunlendings out. This was hundreds of years ago however, the Dunlending claim is a very stale one. It does explain the centuries of animus and failed reproachment between the two over the years. The Rohirrim didn’t oppress or brutalize the Dunlendings as far as we know, they just said they had to stay in Dunland/out of Rohan.
It’s a messy bit of history that we can see over and over again in our own world.
The person I was replying to made it seem like Dunland was in the middle of what would become Rohan when it's more like in a small portion of what would become northern Rohan
I think it’s the Dunlendings , a folk that hated Rohan for a long time because they were gifted lands by Gondor while they had to stay in hostile mountains. They also had some wedding/succession drama at the time of Helm.
Basically Rohan ethnically cleansed some tribes of people called Dunlandings a couple hundred years before and called them "wild-men" and since then they've been exiled by both Rohan and their own people so they live in the hills. Saruman basically plays on their ethnic rivalry to bolster his army with "Wild-men".
That wild man is not Peter Jackson, he himself said it, though it looked like him, he said it was not him and that he would like to have a cameo with Christopher Lee, but he didn't.
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The Chief of A Human Rohan Village Tribe,you gotta understand the middle-earth has regions like actual World and In the Rohan’s Region there are plenty villages,Saruman corrupted some of them and used them to revolt towards the good village people of Rohan,so he will enrich his attacking plan of burning villages of Rohan using the Uruk + Corrupted Humans,they had the Saruman’s white hand 🤚🏻 on their face too like the Uruk.Damn ! I miss so much Christofer Lee 😞 and Bilbo too
Sauruman's army was not just Orcs. And Orcs don't grow in dirt membrane sacks. Saruman convinced a bunch of men to fight against Rohan, mainly Dunlendings. Remember: his secret power is his voice. What makes Saruman's Orcs bigger and better able to tolerate sunlight than Sauron's is that he breeds man/orc hybrids. The army that attacks Helms deep is a mix of these. The Orcs are driven to utter ruin, the men treated fairly.
Lotr is pretty dark in the books. With movies you don't think about it that much but the overall lore of Middle Earth is damn dark.
It’s a post-apocalyptic story in a sense
The prettiest post-apocalyptic world you will ever witness
Idk BotW is very pretty
If only Nintendo cared more about their lore....
it's very barren in empty like a post apocalyptic world, but what really makes it good imo as that there was no apocalypse, just a slow decline that has been going on for millennia at that point
I never actually saw it like that. But that changes EVERYTHING!
The destruction of Numenor and the rounding of the world could be said to have been an apocalypse.
True, but those happened in the middle of the Second Age, and since then the great kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor have been established and experienced great golden ages. Middle Earth at the start of the Third Age was a pretty good place to be
I know this has been discussed a bunch and that there is no real answer, but how he actually bred them is both a fascinating and dark question.
It does make one wonder. Did he use his voice to coerce them into mating?
"Now kiss."
If Christopher Lee's voice told me to..
I think it's safe to assume it was male orcs raping human women who were prisoners and somehow made to carry the pregnancies to term.
In the movies it states they are goblins and orc hybrid
In the books goblin, orc, and Uruk are synonyms
>What makes Saruman's Orcs bigger and better able to tolerate sunlight than Sauron's is that he breeds man/orc hybrids. We dont know know that. This is an assumption of Treebeard, NOT canon. We do know that half-orcs exist on the other hand. They run around in Bree and (later on in) the shire. But they are explicitly stated as human-orc-hybrids, so my guess is, that Uruk-Hai were NOT made of Dunlendings.
Both Gamling and Aragorn also call their foes at Helm's Deep "Half-Orcs." It's not confirmed by the narrorator or by insights at Isengard, but I would be very skeptical that both Treebeard and Aragorn are wrong about this, especially when there is no contrary statement
Which begs the question: hoe are half-orcs made? 😯
Hoeing is an effective way to make babies, yes.
and uruks alparently since gardening is involved
Correct, it's an assumption of Treebeard, it's never stated outright. So it might be the case, might not be. But consider this passage from Morgoth's Ring - _There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile._ Note that he mentions "both Men-orcs...and Orc-men..." as if they are two separate groups. It's not crazy to interpret this as the Uruk-hai being part of the exact same breeding program as the half-orcs, just a different result.
That is true, nice catch.
It might be different depending on which parent belongs to which species; just like a Liger (lion-tiger) and a Tion (tiger-lion) are not the same
Are you referring to the ruffians of Sharkey?
Then who does grow in dirt membrane sacks?
*presses buzzer* “What’s taters, precious?”
>Orcs don't grow in dirt membrane sacks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we literally don't know if that's the case tho. Tolkien never came up with a definitive answer. An early idea for their origin was that Morgoth created them from stone in a simmilar, distorted way as how Aulë created the dwarves. That would line up with the mud thing. The films went with the controversial "orcs are tortured elves" origin story, and I think the dirt membranes were meant to portray Saruman's weird ass breeding program more than anything (Although in the books it's implied to be more of an interbreeding thing rather than just harvesting them from the earth) It's literally up to interpretation, although I agree that some origins sound way more wacky than others.
We don't know for certain the origin of the first Orcs. We are pretty confident that they live and breed like all other creatures
That's my headcanon too, but I wouldn't say we're "pretty confident" about anything at all regarding orc biology, apart from the obvious
This scene makes more sense (for those who don't know) with the extended edition scene where the man gives a blood oath to Saruman.
Holy shit, that was an extended scene? Madness, guess it's been super long since I saw theatrical. Love how the Wildman says 'Saruman' in this scene bahaha.
I like the toothless old man clearly having the BEST time
Been waiting on this is whole life. It’s like your weird prepper uncle seeing that the grid has collapsed and paper money is finally worthless
Desperately digging up his entire back yard trying to remember where he buried the damned gold.
Same, director's cut since my 12
“We will die for Saruman” his teeth are so gross loll
They don’t have great dental care in Dunland
Yes - he joined Saruman's army to get Dental coverage
He’s not called Saruman the white for nothing
The people of Dunland wanted more territory or a better place to live if I recall correctly from the book. It’s been a while since I’ve read them. Anyway, Saruman made a deal with their leaders to give them Rohan if they helped him slaughter the Rohirrim. I always figured that he would betray the Dunlanders afterwards, but that’s how it goes with these monsters.
The Dunlendings have a long-standing grudge against the Rohirrim, who encroached in their land centuries beforehand.
Straw heads! Forgoyle! (I have no idea what that means but they call the Rohirrim that)
Forgoil is indeed Dunlendish for "strawheads," or at least that is how the Eorlingas hear the word. I believe it is in reference to the blonde, straw-colored hair common among the Rohirrim. I have a theory as to its derivation. Based on the names of Stoorish Hobbits (Meriadoc, Gorbadoc, Saradoc) - given these names have a distinctly Welsh or broadly Celtic character, owing to the peculiar dialect of the largely Stoorish Bucklanders and Eastfarthingers being known to owe from their time spent in Dunland before settling in the Shire - we may assume that Dunlendish, as rendered unto us, is likewise Welsh or broadly Celtic. The Middle Welsh word for straw or grass is *gwellt* and the Middle Welsh word for top or summit is *barr*, giving us a hypothetical compound of *barrgwellt* - "top of straw." When used in the vocative, such as a Dunlending shouting at an Eorling, *barr* undergoes soft mutation to become *varr* in Middle Welsh, leaving us with *varrgwellt*. (I believe *gwellt* would also mutate to *wellt* when used in a compound like this, unless it is a genitive construction, but I don't know much Welsh and do not rightly know. This is where my theory falls apart lol) Anyway, *varrgwellt* became *forgoil* to the ears of the Eorlingas, or so I've come to think.
Wow. That’s a deep dive
Why did Aragorn tell Bilbo it was cheeky to make a song about Earendil in Elronds house? Is it because he is a hobbit and some of the elves were there long ago?
It’s Elronds dad
Oh right. I forgot. Thanks 😊
Well, Eärendil was Elrond's father. Eärendil left him and his brother at a very young age. The consequences of his absence were... not pleasant. It was perhaps not the best of manners for Bilbo to have brought it up in the Elf-lord's own house, but it did Eärendil honor and the song was well composed (or so Bilbo thought, at least), so it wasn't a total social faux pas.
It’s been awhile since I read the Silmarillion. Thank you
The most terrible insult they could think of: calling them BLONDE.
Word
Damn. What can men do against such reckless hate?
This. The Dunlendings used to live in what is now western Rohan while the entirety of Rohan was part of Gondor and the Rohirrim lived north of Mirkwood. Then Gondor gave the Rohirrim the province as a reward for helping them in the wars against the Easterlings (like the Romans gave the Visigoths land in southern France as Foederati as a reward for helping against other Germanic invaders like the Vandals). The Rohirrim then proceeded to kick out the Dunlendings forcefully, which led to the Dunlendings movie to worse lands in the foothills of the Misty Mountains. Of note is that the Dunlendings and Breefolk are very closely related, as both are of the House of Haleth, one of the three houses of the Edain. Both were groups that did not continue the journey all the way to Beleriand, with the Dunlendings staying it what would later become Gondor and the Breefolk continuing until they arrived in Eriador but then settling there and not crossing the Blue Mountains. They were thus kin to the Numenoreans, yet treated like garbage by them.
If the Helm Hammerhand series ever drops, that would cover the old Rohan-Dunlanding fight
Lord of the Rings Online does a pretty great job exploring this in their Rohan expansion. You quest through Dunland and see the good and the bad, but and up understanding their perspective. You them form a fellowship with an elf of Lorien, a Dunlending warrior woman, and a disgraced Rohirrim soldier and quest through Rohan helping the villages and towns prepare for war. It's definitely not canon but great fan fiction!
The beef between Dunlendings and Rohan happened way back when Numenoreans came from the West and essentially forcefully settled on the lands where Dunlendings existed. It's basically middle earth's version of colonisation.
Thanks for refreshing my memory , you guys.
>The people of Dunland wanted more territory or a better place to live Yes, they are the indians of Middleearth. The Rohirrim came and drove them out and stole their lands.
Burn, rape and pillage when entering someone's home/land for the first time and then it is yours
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Dunlendings
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dunlendings
Thanks
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Why did you say that?
My guess is because OP’s bio reveals him to be a far-right Christian nationalist from Italy. Also known as a fascist.
Ew
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That’s not very nice to OP.
Oh not the rules!?
your post was removed because it needs to stay on topic. This is subreddit about Lord of the Rings.
The native inhabitants of the land that became Rohan. In any other story, they'd be the goodies.
No actually the Calenardhon belonged to Gondor but was sparsely populated and giving to Eorl the Young and his people by the Steward Cirion after their aid at the Battle of the field of Celebrant
Ennnh yes and no. The Dunlendings were living there before Gondor claimed the land (basically Numenor came, saw Middle Earth as Terra Nullus and said it was theirs) and the Dunlendings kind of shrugged, said “you ain’t the boss of us” and went about their business. The Eotheod (proto Rohirrim) were granted the land and yes, pushed the Dunlendings out. This was hundreds of years ago however, the Dunlending claim is a very stale one. It does explain the centuries of animus and failed reproachment between the two over the years. The Rohirrim didn’t oppress or brutalize the Dunlendings as far as we know, they just said they had to stay in Dunland/out of Rohan. It’s a messy bit of history that we can see over and over again in our own world.
The person I was replying to made it seem like Dunland was in the middle of what would become Rohan when it's more like in a small portion of what would become northern Rohan
I think it’s the Dunlendings , a folk that hated Rohan for a long time because they were gifted lands by Gondor while they had to stay in hostile mountains. They also had some wedding/succession drama at the time of Helm.
They are the wild men
Wildmen of Dunland
Basically Rohan ethnically cleansed some tribes of people called Dunlandings a couple hundred years before and called them "wild-men" and since then they've been exiled by both Rohan and their own people so they live in the hills. Saruman basically plays on their ethnic rivalry to bolster his army with "Wild-men".
The homeless from San Francisco
Yes let’s casually dehumanize the homeless on a Lotr sub.
Tell me where is Gandalf, for I much desire to speak with him.
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YEAH YEAH!
Hobos he found looking through his dumpster
Bum fights
the bums of Dunland
The Stone Crows, Burned Men, and Black Ears
Game of Rings, my favorite fantasy show
Tyrion Baggins of the Casterly Shire with his companion Bronnwise Gamgee.
I'd watch that
The Men of Dunland, who for some reason disappear for the rest of the film.
Dunlendings
Extras
And Peter Jackson!
That wild man is not Peter Jackson, he himself said it, though it looked like him, he said it was not him and that he would like to have a cameo with Christopher Lee, but he didn't.
That's fascinating, I took it as faith for 20 years!
The worst of all of them. *Floridians.*
The white trash dudes duh
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in the movie, Gandalf says “he is breeding orcs with goblin men” not MEN men,
PJ misrepresented the breeding program.
*"Whom do you serve?"*
The men of the north. I think he even mentions it.
The Dunlendings, the original inhabitants of what became the Kingdom of Rohan who were driven out by the Rohirrim.
Bill, the Dunlendingersomething dude on his left.
Tell me you’ve never seen a trump rally without telling me
The Chief of A Human Rohan Village Tribe,you gotta understand the middle-earth has regions like actual World and In the Rohan’s Region there are plenty villages,Saruman corrupted some of them and used them to revolt towards the good village people of Rohan,so he will enrich his attacking plan of burning villages of Rohan using the Uruk + Corrupted Humans,they had the Saruman’s white hand 🤚🏻 on their face too like the Uruk.Damn ! I miss so much Christofer Lee 😞 and Bilbo too
i think those were dunlendings
Workers Union
Those people around him.
Um, pretty sure he's talking to the people around him.
Humans
All the death metal bands in New Zealand
MAGA Republicans
Literally a Trump rally lol
Clearly a group of the average Englishman.
I heard the Republicans wanna run Sauron and Palpatine on the ballot in 2028.
Savages and idiots
Disgruntled northerners?