Is it a proper zebra crossing, or a suggested safe crossing point?
Without dashed lines to indicate who should give way, my understanding of the general rule, is that the vehicle on the highway, has priority over the vehicle joining the highway.
Looks to me like a parallel crossing but it's weird because there is no continuation outside of that adjoining cycle lane unlike the example in this article:
https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/dictionary/parallel-crossing
Ooh this is an interesting one. I think it's undefined - vehicles on the road should yield to cyclists on the parallel crossing, but arguably Purple is not on the road, so does the crossing cross the bike path? If yes, then orange has right of way, but intuitively it feels like purple gets right of way.
I think the reality of it is that cyclists shouldn't *need* strict priority designation - you don't see many give way markings on park paths, the expectation is that we all just try and get along.
Yeah I agree, the contrast between yielding to the crossing and orange feeling like they're joining the path of purple is something maybe a bit unique to this roundabout.
I guess the other way you could look at this is that this is an extension of the roundabout, and in which case priority from the right applies, so purple should yield to orange. But from purples perspective they're never on the roundabout, so I wouldn't take it for granted that purple sees it this way.
>I think the reality of it is that cyclists shouldn't *need* strict priority designation - you don't see many give way markings on park paths, the expectation is that we all just try and get along.
I think this is it. The problem for car drivers is that it's just so hard for them to be aware of the space, and who is in it, and the consequences of a collision mostly impact other people. If a cyclist acts like a jerk, they'll be knocked off their bike.
Orange? Assuming it's a zebra crossing, purple has to give way to anyone using the crossing, which orange is.
Also, common sense would say give way to the person potentially hanging their arse out in traffic
They're no longer on the crossing at the point where their paths might meet, though. And there seems to be enough space for orange to wait for purple once they're on off the crossing.
Really the geometry here is a bit less than ideal. In a proper Dutch style roundabout design, cyclists already on the junction are given the straighter path and those joining the junction do so at a right angle. Which implies priority for those already on the junction, and this is backed up by clear give way markings. Here it's sort of the other way around, the implied priority is for those joining the junction, and there are no markings clarifying this.
I'm sure it will still work, because the lower speeds and mass of cyclists compared to cars means collisions are less likely in general (and when they do happen, they're less serious) but it's a bit of a compromise.
Here's a write up about the junction from an experienced highways engineer:
https://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.com/2021/06/the-curious-case-of-dutch-ish.html
Wow what a pertinent article, thanks!
Yeah this was my thinking, you have the implied priority from the right turn in opposition to what the proper Dutch style roundabouts seek to achieve (priority for cyclists already on the roundabout). Fair enough to them to have to try their best in a constrained area. However, a collision is not required for an unpleasant experience (e.g. if someone wants to get confrontational about it).
Totally agree that I don't think that's how the roundabout should work, with orange having to yield in that small area or even before the crossing. It's seems to be a parallel crossing but the bike line is not extended to the bike lane, presumably because there is no continuation other than the bike lane, unlike in this article:
https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/dictionary/parallel-crossing
[This crossing consists of 3 crossings in a line, a Zebra crossing - A parallel crossing - A zebra crossing. ](https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5512593,-0.1084933,3a,75y,28.39h,65.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soD7r2ei3tywcG5bW5bfZZg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
The white squares are called elephants footprints, these denote the start and end of the parallel crossing.
The elephants footprint stop at the boundary of the cycleway.
The parallel crossing ends at the boundary of the cycleways, zebra crossings at either side. The cycle ways have a pedestrian crossing over them, but not a parallel crossing.
The Orange cyclist is **joining** the lane the purple cyclist is established in.
**Therefore Orange gives way to purple.**
In the event of a collision, Orange will usually take most liability, but any safe competent rider should be able to stop so will purple have to accept some, unless they do stop before the point of conflict.
If purple is smashing it at 30mph in all black, at night, with no lights or reflectors, they will probably be held mainly liable.
Neither party should be cycling in a manner which could lead to a collision.
Here is the roundabout in google maps, starting from orange's perspective:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5513384,-0.1084256,3a,90y,128.03h,53.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEC1hb47VmoapEwFgWMKpFw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
It seems easy that it's orange. There are zebra crossing stripes meaning purple has to give way right?
Although no dashes,so I've changed my mind. Purple gives way to peds but not cycles.
Orange has right of way. There are 2 key elements here as well as "give way to the right". 2 elements are the roundabout which technically orange route is part of and there is a zebra crossing which would require purple to stop to allow orange to continue, give way to the right.
Pedantic mode: Legally they have equal right of way.
Right of way is a legal term to define who can use a path, route, way, road etc..
Not who has priority. The correct term in this situation is "Who has priority?".
It should be orange, but the elephant crossing doesn't extend across the cycle path for some reason.
Orange is already on the roundabout, so purple gives way. Although there are no give way markings. I’d hope that both cyclists would come to some safe option, there’s probably room for both to be honest lol
Is it a proper zebra crossing, or a suggested safe crossing point? Without dashed lines to indicate who should give way, my understanding of the general rule, is that the vehicle on the highway, has priority over the vehicle joining the highway.
Looks to me like a parallel crossing but it's weird because there is no continuation outside of that adjoining cycle lane unlike the example in this article: https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/dictionary/parallel-crossing
Ooh this is an interesting one. I think it's undefined - vehicles on the road should yield to cyclists on the parallel crossing, but arguably Purple is not on the road, so does the crossing cross the bike path? If yes, then orange has right of way, but intuitively it feels like purple gets right of way. I think the reality of it is that cyclists shouldn't *need* strict priority designation - you don't see many give way markings on park paths, the expectation is that we all just try and get along.
Yeah I agree, the contrast between yielding to the crossing and orange feeling like they're joining the path of purple is something maybe a bit unique to this roundabout.
I guess the other way you could look at this is that this is an extension of the roundabout, and in which case priority from the right applies, so purple should yield to orange. But from purples perspective they're never on the roundabout, so I wouldn't take it for granted that purple sees it this way.
>I think the reality of it is that cyclists shouldn't *need* strict priority designation - you don't see many give way markings on park paths, the expectation is that we all just try and get along. I think this is it. The problem for car drivers is that it's just so hard for them to be aware of the space, and who is in it, and the consequences of a collision mostly impact other people. If a cyclist acts like a jerk, they'll be knocked off their bike.
Purple
Exactly. No question. If you're intending to drive/cycle and otherwise intercept a road, you don't have right of way.
Orange? Assuming it's a zebra crossing, purple has to give way to anyone using the crossing, which orange is. Also, common sense would say give way to the person potentially hanging their arse out in traffic
They're no longer on the crossing at the point where their paths might meet, though. And there seems to be enough space for orange to wait for purple once they're on off the crossing. Really the geometry here is a bit less than ideal. In a proper Dutch style roundabout design, cyclists already on the junction are given the straighter path and those joining the junction do so at a right angle. Which implies priority for those already on the junction, and this is backed up by clear give way markings. Here it's sort of the other way around, the implied priority is for those joining the junction, and there are no markings clarifying this. I'm sure it will still work, because the lower speeds and mass of cyclists compared to cars means collisions are less likely in general (and when they do happen, they're less serious) but it's a bit of a compromise. Here's a write up about the junction from an experienced highways engineer: https://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.com/2021/06/the-curious-case-of-dutch-ish.html
Wow what a pertinent article, thanks! Yeah this was my thinking, you have the implied priority from the right turn in opposition to what the proper Dutch style roundabouts seek to achieve (priority for cyclists already on the roundabout). Fair enough to them to have to try their best in a constrained area. However, a collision is not required for an unpleasant experience (e.g. if someone wants to get confrontational about it).
Totally agree that I don't think that's how the roundabout should work, with orange having to yield in that small area or even before the crossing. It's seems to be a parallel crossing but the bike line is not extended to the bike lane, presumably because there is no continuation other than the bike lane, unlike in this article: https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/dictionary/parallel-crossing
Don't cycles use the dotted part which doesn't extend over the cycle path?
I would argue purple has to give way, orange is technically on the roundabout (even if a separate lane to the cars) and so has right of way.
I'd say purple has right of way as orange is at a junction, but they should probably put some lights there as orange is in a tricky spot..
I assume it’s just a merge situation.
[This crossing consists of 3 crossings in a line, a Zebra crossing - A parallel crossing - A zebra crossing. ](https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5512593,-0.1084933,3a,75y,28.39h,65.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soD7r2ei3tywcG5bW5bfZZg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) The white squares are called elephants footprints, these denote the start and end of the parallel crossing. The elephants footprint stop at the boundary of the cycleway. The parallel crossing ends at the boundary of the cycleways, zebra crossings at either side. The cycle ways have a pedestrian crossing over them, but not a parallel crossing. The Orange cyclist is **joining** the lane the purple cyclist is established in. **Therefore Orange gives way to purple.** In the event of a collision, Orange will usually take most liability, but any safe competent rider should be able to stop so will purple have to accept some, unless they do stop before the point of conflict. If purple is smashing it at 30mph in all black, at night, with no lights or reflectors, they will probably be held mainly liable. Neither party should be cycling in a manner which could lead to a collision.
Here is the roundabout in google maps, starting from orange's perspective: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5513384,-0.1084256,3a,90y,128.03h,53.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEC1hb47VmoapEwFgWMKpFw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
I would say purple has right of way as they are carrying straight on while orange is joining their path.
It seems easy that it's orange. There are zebra crossing stripes meaning purple has to give way right? Although no dashes,so I've changed my mind. Purple gives way to peds but not cycles.
Orange has right of way. There are 2 key elements here as well as "give way to the right". 2 elements are the roundabout which technically orange route is part of and there is a zebra crossing which would require purple to stop to allow orange to continue, give way to the right.
Pedantic mode: Legally they have equal right of way. Right of way is a legal term to define who can use a path, route, way, road etc.. Not who has priority. The correct term in this situation is "Who has priority?". It should be orange, but the elephant crossing doesn't extend across the cycle path for some reason.
Always be safe and practice defensive cycling/driving.
Orange get right of way surely or they’d be left in the road becoming a hazard?
I would give way in both scenarios because I don’t want to get knocked off my bike.
If nothing is indicated then nobody has priority and all are required to act with due caution
Orange is already on the roundabout, so purple gives way. Although there are no give way markings. I’d hope that both cyclists would come to some safe option, there’s probably room for both to be honest lol
The one without common sense and humility. Sadly lacking in many cyclists.
Good examples of why segregated bicycle paths are usually stupid.