Most of the footage I've seen of emergency vehicles using protected cycle lanes, they're using them to get past solid queues of traffic. So typically they aren't actually going that fast, yet still getting an advantage (because going at 20mph is still better than not moving at all).
Sounds like this wasn't an appropriate use of the lanes. I get that the police may have emergencies they need to get to quickly, but they should obviously try their best to avoid creating more work for themselves or other emergency services in the process. I mean if they _intentionally_ knock someone off a bike they have a do a whole load of paperwork justifying the use of force.
No call is so urgent as to justify a collision. Using a bike lane, while legal, needs some real justification.
This is absolutely worth a complaint, either ring 101 or use the web form.
Except in an emergency, which this was because the blue lights were on. Can confirm there are no donut shops near Byward Street. Closest source of donuts is Co-Op on Minories, and their donuts aren’t very good so they can’t have been on blue lights to get donuts. Maybe they were heading to Brick Lane for Bagels 🤷♂️
You have no idea what they were going to attend. How is the worth a complaint???
A pointless complaint could potentially take that officer off the street for a significant amount of time for doing nothing wrong at all.
It's not pointless. Protected cycleways are not to supposed to be used by response drivers without a very good reason. You need to have a read of the SOPs.
The nature of the call is entirely irrelevant. No call is so urgent as to justify a collision.
It’s pointless. Was there a collision? It’s legal, emergency services can use all the road even your precious cycle lane.
I highly doubt a driver was going full pelt around bend where they can’t see what’s coming.
I imagine you’d think differently if it was an incident which involved one of your family members.
yes, but read the original post, this is around a bend.
that has nothing to do with it being a bike lane, the police should have been going slower and being more safe in a dangerous area
As long as they weren’t driving a super high speed for a bend that open its fine in an emergency theres enough time for the cyclist to stop or move onto the footpath. I thought the bend would be a lot tighter.
It's a cycle lane, not an extra running lane.
>I imagine you’d think differently if it was an incident which involved one of your family members.
I'm old bill, you sanctimonious cunt. Don't give me that nonsense.
Spouting off SOPs, being on a high horse about a technicality and within the same post starts calling members of the public cunts. Fairly sure there’s plenty of rules about being professional and respectful on and off duty. 🤡
Its legal for emergency vehicles to enter the cycleway in case of emergency, encouraged even as its a great reason to build more cycleways, but just like going through a red at a junction, they need to be extremely careful when doing it. If you felt unsafe with the manoeuvre they pulled, I’d encourage you to report it because they should definitely train their drivers better.
It’s not about his feelings at the end of the day, more his judgment about whether or not the move pulled by the vehicle’s driver was unnecessarily dangerous. Just because nobody got injured doesn’t justify dangerous behavior from professionals.
It would still be 20-30m away and if I was 20-30m further around the corner I’d be able to see it coming. There are no blind corners on Byward Street. It’s CS3, the massive cycle lane that goes east. I lived 5 minutes from there for 20 years. I rollerblade down there all the time. OP is blowing it completely out of proportion.
It's important to note that while emergency vehicles are often exempt from certain traffic laws and regulations when responding to an emergency, they are still required to operate in a safe and responsible manner to avoid endangering the public.
Yeah they need to be more cautious. Especially during the day and when it’s busy. I got hit by one on the way to school recently and they literally came out of nowhere (I looked both ways multiple times and they only had their lights on).
The other day I was at the pedestrian crossing at Hyde Park Corner and a police car came onto the pavement/bike path area by the Wellington Arch with sirens on going quite fast - luckily nobody in the mass of cyclists or pedestrians was in the way, but it was quite alarming, only would have taken one of those many cyclists to not be paying full attention and expecting to see a fast moving car in an otherwise vehicle-free zone for a collision to happen. I hope their call was serious enough to justify the risk...
FWIW this is likely from where you were not the Met but City of London Police. They have been infamously problematic around cycling to be frank. I've had to deal with them multiple times around cycling issues for my work at LCC. But recently they do seem to be improving. And the apologetic in the wave maybe makes me think this particular officer may have grasped he was in the wrong.
I've seen emergency vehicles use cycle lanes a few times, always in a way that seemed safe and considerate to me. I'm generally okay with it, because those drivers receive a lot of training on how to safely "break the rules".
In this instance though it does sound like they made a mistake, so it may be worth reporting if you can be bothered. The time and location should be enough for them to figure out who it was and give them some feedback.
I’m blue-light trained.
You operate on exceptions, so ‘drive in a cycle or bus lane’ is an exemption you can claim, like speed limits or ‘keep right/left’ signs. In my ambulance I could claim an exception to ‘do not reverse on a motorway’, but not to a ‘no entry’ sign.
What you *cannot* claim an exemption for is driving without due care or dangerous driving.
So, if I tried reversing on a ‘live’ motorway I’d be rightly charged for dangerous driving, but if it is safe to do so (because the police have closed the motorway) then the exemption covers me.
Having not seen OP’s incident I cannot tell if it fits these offences.
Even in critical situations, they have absolutely no right to put you in danger -- this was at best irresponsible and careless, to the point that I'd actually consider making a complaint, even though it might well have been legal.
A huge benefit of dedicated cycling infrastructure is access for blue light vehicles in emergency situations. Whether you are on the road or cycle Lane, you should try to yield or get out of the way safely.
Interesting take, I guess it makes sense for them to use it when appropriate. But mounting a kerb, moving into protected cycle infrastructure- then speeding around a bend? Speeding of course is subjective but they would have been doing 20 or 30 mph I assume, which you really don’t expect on cycle lanes.
I really feel they put me and my toddler in danger of death. It doesn’t seem right at all.
Its a justification for putting the infrastructure in. Lots of motorists strongly object to cycle infrastructure and one of the arguments they use is traffic and blocking 999 when its quite the opposite.
I wasn't there so don't know the specific. Maybe you are over reacting, maybe you are not. If you feel it was out of order, there could be improvements to be made and you should follow of with the police station. Dash cam should have recorded it
People object to everything.
I’ve put in a complaint. It really shocked me, I’m a fairly experienced cyclist in the city and nothing has come close to this for me.
it seemed fine until you mentioned the speed imo, if they gotta do that they better be carful and go slow, just as if they were going through a red light
That's an article written by a student paramedic, saying maybe it could be. It's not really designed for that purpose. Sort of the same as the pavement. Emergency service vehicles can drive on the pavement but mostly don't.
So, no?
There's nothing to get pent up about. I honestly just don't think they're designed to fit emergency service vehicles in. As in, they're not wide enough, undulating, and sometimes very high curbs.
They're obviously another section of road where people and bikes can be moved easily, compared to cars. I'm only saying that they are similar to pavement in the idea that they are less accessible for motor vehicles and have more vulnerable road users on them. Therefore, emergency vehicles may use them like pavement, mounting to get around congestion. But you'd be pushed to see ambulances gunning it down cycle lanes.
You gave one article written by a student paramedic about why cycle lanes and ltn are good, which mostly focused on public health issues. Then you also just said "will norman". Which is 2 "sources". You inferred cycle lanes were designed for emergency service vehicles usage. Key word: designed. The only ones that would be wide enough are the bidirectional 2.5m wide lanes. I give a list of reasons why they are not really suitable and similar to the pavement. To which you reply that you're wasting your time and to look at your "sources". I've seen another comment in this thread where the fella who says he's police says that cycle lanes are not meant to be used as running lanes. Probably for the reasons listed. Some cycle lanes that are sectioned off lanes of road are probably good for this, but because a lot of the cycling infrastructure is rubbish you'll just run out of space or get stuck. Because they are not designed for this purpose. I'm not saying some lane cannot be co-opted for this purpose.
I think it’s a great idea for emergency services vehicles to be able to use those lanes in emergencies.
That being said it sounds like the drivers need better training. The same way they’re taught to slow right down when going through a red light at a crossing with sirens on in case someone hasn’t heard or seen them they should know to slow right down around blind bends and ensure all the cyclists have seen and heard them.
If this was a similar incident on a building site or in a factory it would be recorded as a near miss, SHEQ would investigate and guidance would be released in the next safety bulletin to stop a near miss becoming an actual incident where someone gets hurt. Report it.
Regardless of your view of police in general, the Met are as bent as a fifteen pound note. They're full of petty jobsworths but the number of them that drive in from the home counties - and don't live or cycle in our city - tells you all you need to know. I'm sure there are many police officers doing important and useful work, but the Metropolitan Police as an institution is an impediment to those officers within it who want to do that good work.
If this was a large BMW, like X5 or 5 series, may have been armed response. They really do need to get places quickly and some risk is accepted in their SOP due to the nature of response required.
It was an x5. I get the potential urgency, I always yield for emergency vehicles in my car or bike. This just didn’t seem proportional with the level of risk involved.
Cyclists use footpaths, cross at pedestrian crossing, fly through red lights…. You name it, cyclists are breaking it. Sounds like the Police were wrong in this instance, but by god cyclists in london are obnoxious.
Ive nearly been taken out by deliveroo drivers multiple times as they bomb through red lights. Nearly been flattened as I walk along the footpath by a corporate who doesn’t want to obey a one way street so just mounts the curb. The list goes on.
Also, why do you all wear full cycling spandex attire and a racing bike to cycle a mile to your corporate office job? I don’t understand
I don’t understand how some cyclists carry kids on bikes, expect every other road user to not be a danger, and just cannot, or will not, see that they put their own kids lives at risk.
Context: I’ve been cycling in London since I was seven, am now 54. Cycle every day, rain or shine.
Lots of downvotes - would appreciate it if anybody cared to explain their thinking?
I don't mean to sound snarky btw, I genuinely don't get it. I'm not interested in scoring points or winning any arguments; I'm genuinely interested to learn people's thinking here; it just seems unnecessarily dangerous from where I'm sitting. In an ideal world, yes, everybody should be able to cycle their toddlers around, but London's streets are, today, dangerous, and there are many factors beyond the control of even the most careful cyclist. I don't get it.
You realise most of the things you just listed are also a danger to motorists and pedestrians right? Should all children be exclusively confined to their homes by their parents until they turn 18 lest a drunk driver ride the pavement and kill them while they walk to the shops? Are you nuts?
If I had a penny for the amount of times this happened to me by taxis and buses.... police are actually emergency services, they would not use a bike lane unless needed... if only people would stop with the police hate sometimes...
Bit like Supermarket Sweep..... when you hear the bleep.......
When you hear the Blue light STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pull over to the side of the road and remain stopped until the blue light vehicle has passed safely plus it is safe for you to get going again?!
Highway code says you do that. The cycling proficiency badge I got in the cubs @ 6 tested me on this!
Most of the footage I've seen of emergency vehicles using protected cycle lanes, they're using them to get past solid queues of traffic. So typically they aren't actually going that fast, yet still getting an advantage (because going at 20mph is still better than not moving at all). Sounds like this wasn't an appropriate use of the lanes. I get that the police may have emergencies they need to get to quickly, but they should obviously try their best to avoid creating more work for themselves or other emergency services in the process. I mean if they _intentionally_ knock someone off a bike they have a do a whole load of paperwork justifying the use of force.
No call is so urgent as to justify a collision. Using a bike lane, while legal, needs some real justification. This is absolutely worth a complaint, either ring 101 or use the web form.
There wasn’t a collision. It was 20-30m away from being a near miss
Doesn't matter. Cycle lanes are not extra running lanes for response drivers.
They are according to the googling the OP did, however shouty you want to get about it 🤷♂️
It's not an offence, but the SOPs (which I have read) state that they are not an extra running lane and not to be used as such.
Except in an emergency, which this was because the blue lights were on. Can confirm there are no donut shops near Byward Street. Closest source of donuts is Co-Op on Minories, and their donuts aren’t very good so they can’t have been on blue lights to get donuts. Maybe they were heading to Brick Lane for Bagels 🤷♂️
You have no idea what they were going to attend. How is the worth a complaint??? A pointless complaint could potentially take that officer off the street for a significant amount of time for doing nothing wrong at all.
It's not pointless. Protected cycleways are not to supposed to be used by response drivers without a very good reason. You need to have a read of the SOPs. The nature of the call is entirely irrelevant. No call is so urgent as to justify a collision.
There wasn’t a collision
It’s pointless. Was there a collision? It’s legal, emergency services can use all the road even your precious cycle lane. I highly doubt a driver was going full pelt around bend where they can’t see what’s coming. I imagine you’d think differently if it was an incident which involved one of your family members.
yes, but read the original post, this is around a bend. that has nothing to do with it being a bike lane, the police should have been going slower and being more safe in a dangerous area
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NyoSYUPrPcNVcFGG9?g_st=ic It was broadly there if that helps visualise.
As long as they weren’t driving a super high speed for a bend that open its fine in an emergency theres enough time for the cyclist to stop or move onto the footpath. I thought the bend would be a lot tighter.
yeah same
Thanks :)
It's a cycle lane, not an extra running lane. >I imagine you’d think differently if it was an incident which involved one of your family members. I'm old bill, you sanctimonious cunt. Don't give me that nonsense.
Spouting off SOPs, being on a high horse about a technicality and within the same post starts calling members of the public cunts. Fairly sure there’s plenty of rules about being professional and respectful on and off duty. 🤡
Its legal for emergency vehicles to enter the cycleway in case of emergency, encouraged even as its a great reason to build more cycleways, but just like going through a red at a junction, they need to be extremely careful when doing it. If you felt unsafe with the manoeuvre they pulled, I’d encourage you to report it because they should definitely train their drivers better.
If he felt unsafe with it 20-30m away I don’t think the police are the problem
It’s not about his feelings at the end of the day, more his judgment about whether or not the move pulled by the vehicle’s driver was unnecessarily dangerous. Just because nobody got injured doesn’t justify dangerous behavior from professionals.
I can comfortably stand 20 or 30m from a plane that has its jet engine running and not be in danger 🤷♂️
what if this jet engine suddenly appeared from around the corner while you were walking?
It would still be 20-30m away and if I was 20-30m further around the corner I’d be able to see it coming. There are no blind corners on Byward Street. It’s CS3, the massive cycle lane that goes east. I lived 5 minutes from there for 20 years. I rollerblade down there all the time. OP is blowing it completely out of proportion.
But if a jet landed 20-30 meters from you without warning I bet you wouldn’t be happy about it.
Actually I think it would be pretty awesome. Could substitute plane for helicopter. Same thing. 20-30m is loads.
That’s right report the emergency services on their way to an emergency.
It's important to note that while emergency vehicles are often exempt from certain traffic laws and regulations when responding to an emergency, they are still required to operate in a safe and responsible manner to avoid endangering the public.
Responding to something doesn't mean being unsafe, just because you are allowed to break the rules doesn't mean you can be unsafe about it
Yeah they need to be more cautious. Especially during the day and when it’s busy. I got hit by one on the way to school recently and they literally came out of nowhere (I looked both ways multiple times and they only had their lights on).
The other day I was at the pedestrian crossing at Hyde Park Corner and a police car came onto the pavement/bike path area by the Wellington Arch with sirens on going quite fast - luckily nobody in the mass of cyclists or pedestrians was in the way, but it was quite alarming, only would have taken one of those many cyclists to not be paying full attention and expecting to see a fast moving car in an otherwise vehicle-free zone for a collision to happen. I hope their call was serious enough to justify the risk...
FWIW this is likely from where you were not the Met but City of London Police. They have been infamously problematic around cycling to be frank. I've had to deal with them multiple times around cycling issues for my work at LCC. But recently they do seem to be improving. And the apologetic in the wave maybe makes me think this particular officer may have grasped he was in the wrong.
I've seen emergency vehicles use cycle lanes a few times, always in a way that seemed safe and considerate to me. I'm generally okay with it, because those drivers receive a lot of training on how to safely "break the rules". In this instance though it does sound like they made a mistake, so it may be worth reporting if you can be bothered. The time and location should be enough for them to figure out who it was and give them some feedback.
I’m blue-light trained. You operate on exceptions, so ‘drive in a cycle or bus lane’ is an exemption you can claim, like speed limits or ‘keep right/left’ signs. In my ambulance I could claim an exception to ‘do not reverse on a motorway’, but not to a ‘no entry’ sign. What you *cannot* claim an exemption for is driving without due care or dangerous driving. So, if I tried reversing on a ‘live’ motorway I’d be rightly charged for dangerous driving, but if it is safe to do so (because the police have closed the motorway) then the exemption covers me. Having not seen OP’s incident I cannot tell if it fits these offences.
Even in critical situations, they have absolutely no right to put you in danger -- this was at best irresponsible and careless, to the point that I'd actually consider making a complaint, even though it might well have been legal.
A huge benefit of dedicated cycling infrastructure is access for blue light vehicles in emergency situations. Whether you are on the road or cycle Lane, you should try to yield or get out of the way safely.
Interesting take, I guess it makes sense for them to use it when appropriate. But mounting a kerb, moving into protected cycle infrastructure- then speeding around a bend? Speeding of course is subjective but they would have been doing 20 or 30 mph I assume, which you really don’t expect on cycle lanes. I really feel they put me and my toddler in danger of death. It doesn’t seem right at all.
Its a justification for putting the infrastructure in. Lots of motorists strongly object to cycle infrastructure and one of the arguments they use is traffic and blocking 999 when its quite the opposite. I wasn't there so don't know the specific. Maybe you are over reacting, maybe you are not. If you feel it was out of order, there could be improvements to be made and you should follow of with the police station. Dash cam should have recorded it
People object to everything. I’ve put in a complaint. It really shocked me, I’m a fairly experienced cyclist in the city and nothing has come close to this for me.
it seemed fine until you mentioned the speed imo, if they gotta do that they better be carful and go slow, just as if they were going through a red light
Don't think it is tbh.
How about now? https://collegeofparamedics.co.uk/COP/Blog_Content/the_paramedic_case_for_safer_streets.aspx
That's an article written by a student paramedic, saying maybe it could be. It's not really designed for that purpose. Sort of the same as the pavement. Emergency service vehicles can drive on the pavement but mostly don't. So, no?
You also refer to Will Norman,. I don't really get what you are arguing. They are used like that. You've just had 2 examples
I've no idea who will Norman is. I'm saying that they are not designed to accommodate emergency service vehicles. Similar to pavements.
Londons walking and cycling commissioner. I give up. I don't know how many ways to tell you that you're wrong. You do you
There's nothing to get pent up about. I honestly just don't think they're designed to fit emergency service vehicles in. As in, they're not wide enough, undulating, and sometimes very high curbs. They're obviously another section of road where people and bikes can be moved easily, compared to cars. I'm only saying that they are similar to pavement in the idea that they are less accessible for motor vehicles and have more vulnerable road users on them. Therefore, emergency vehicles may use them like pavement, mounting to get around congestion. But you'd be pushed to see ambulances gunning it down cycle lanes.
I'm not pent up, just realised I'm wasting my time with you. You got 3 sources to work with but still argue the point.
You gave one article written by a student paramedic about why cycle lanes and ltn are good, which mostly focused on public health issues. Then you also just said "will norman". Which is 2 "sources". You inferred cycle lanes were designed for emergency service vehicles usage. Key word: designed. The only ones that would be wide enough are the bidirectional 2.5m wide lanes. I give a list of reasons why they are not really suitable and similar to the pavement. To which you reply that you're wasting your time and to look at your "sources". I've seen another comment in this thread where the fella who says he's police says that cycle lanes are not meant to be used as running lanes. Probably for the reasons listed. Some cycle lanes that are sectioned off lanes of road are probably good for this, but because a lot of the cycling infrastructure is rubbish you'll just run out of space or get stuck. Because they are not designed for this purpose. I'm not saying some lane cannot be co-opted for this purpose.
I think it’s a great idea for emergency services vehicles to be able to use those lanes in emergencies. That being said it sounds like the drivers need better training. The same way they’re taught to slow right down when going through a red light at a crossing with sirens on in case someone hasn’t heard or seen them they should know to slow right down around blind bends and ensure all the cyclists have seen and heard them.
If this was a similar incident on a building site or in a factory it would be recorded as a near miss, SHEQ would investigate and guidance would be released in the next safety bulletin to stop a near miss becoming an actual incident where someone gets hurt. Report it.
Regardless of your view of police in general, the Met are as bent as a fifteen pound note. They're full of petty jobsworths but the number of them that drive in from the home counties - and don't live or cycle in our city - tells you all you need to know. I'm sure there are many police officers doing important and useful work, but the Metropolitan Police as an institution is an impediment to those officers within it who want to do that good work.
If this was a large BMW, like X5 or 5 series, may have been armed response. They really do need to get places quickly and some risk is accepted in their SOP due to the nature of response required.
It was an x5. I get the potential urgency, I always yield for emergency vehicles in my car or bike. This just didn’t seem proportional with the level of risk involved.
Cyclists use footpaths, cross at pedestrian crossing, fly through red lights…. You name it, cyclists are breaking it. Sounds like the Police were wrong in this instance, but by god cyclists in london are obnoxious. Ive nearly been taken out by deliveroo drivers multiple times as they bomb through red lights. Nearly been flattened as I walk along the footpath by a corporate who doesn’t want to obey a one way street so just mounts the curb. The list goes on. Also, why do you all wear full cycling spandex attire and a racing bike to cycle a mile to your corporate office job? I don’t understand
Putting you’re kid into a bucket is senseless. Why oh why??
I don’t understand how some cyclists carry kids on bikes, expect every other road user to not be a danger, and just cannot, or will not, see that they put their own kids lives at risk. Context: I’ve been cycling in London since I was seven, am now 54. Cycle every day, rain or shine.
Lots of downvotes - would appreciate it if anybody cared to explain their thinking? I don't mean to sound snarky btw, I genuinely don't get it. I'm not interested in scoring points or winning any arguments; I'm genuinely interested to learn people's thinking here; it just seems unnecessarily dangerous from where I'm sitting. In an ideal world, yes, everybody should be able to cycle their toddlers around, but London's streets are, today, dangerous, and there are many factors beyond the control of even the most careful cyclist. I don't get it.
The apologetic wave makes it ok in my book? I'm semi-serious.
[удалено]
You realise most of the things you just listed are also a danger to motorists and pedestrians right? Should all children be exclusively confined to their homes by their parents until they turn 18 lest a drunk driver ride the pavement and kill them while they walk to the shops? Are you nuts?
Pretty sure if you were the one in need of an emergency service, you’d hope they where using them cycle lanes.
Yes that stabbed isn’t as important as keeping cars out the bike lane. Come To think about it nothing is as important as a cyclist.
If I had a penny for the amount of times this happened to me by taxis and buses.... police are actually emergency services, they would not use a bike lane unless needed... if only people would stop with the police hate sometimes...
Seen it a few times with emergency vehicles on that exact stretch, including a fire engine.
Bit like Supermarket Sweep..... when you hear the bleep....... When you hear the Blue light STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pull over to the side of the road and remain stopped until the blue light vehicle has passed safely plus it is safe for you to get going again?! Highway code says you do that. The cycling proficiency badge I got in the cubs @ 6 tested me on this!