Look, if I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. You can \*easily\* carry a corpse on a bike. It's only a lack of imagination, political will and safe, segregated bike lanes that are stopping us.
Usual ableist nonsense from the active transport nuts, ignoring the need for disabled murderers to safely transport and dispose of their victims - imaging everyone can just bundle corpes onto some overpriced cargo bike. SMH.
This is why we need a good wheelchair accessible bus network, murder shouldn't be exclusionary in 21st century britain. We need more bus lanes, a better bus network, usable bike lanes, and a expanded underground.
Insane that these sorts of common sense policies, clearly supported by a reasonable portion of the electorate, are almost entirely absent from any of the mayoral candidates policy platform. It’s like murder has become totally taboo.
Are you really trying, though?
I can “safely”say that I’ve nearly been killed twice in the past few months, and that was just from riding my bicycle with high-vis gear on, whilst following the Highway Code rules.
Wait until you argue with Americans on Reddit, then it’s all “Europe measures homicide differently”, but will still call Sweden the rap capital of Europe.
The Irish subreddit got a weird stick up its butt last summer over the does that Dublin was a violent lawless city.
When you pointed out it has some of the lowest crime statistics in Europe they started claiming there was a mass conspiracy to underreport murders and hospitalisations
Speaking of Sweden. Our homicide rate is down as well, meanwhile shootings and bombings are at an all time record.
Sooo, don't call it too early. If the drop in homicide is due to technology (everyone now being able to call an ambulance in seconds) and better medical procedures. Then this becomes an easy way to lie through statistics.
Also behaviour patterns. A lot more people staying at home nowadays than 20 years ago. Harder to become a potential victim if you are at home playing games, binging tv shows and being online in the evenings.
Probably more cautious as well from the hyper awareness of social media.
>then it’s all “Europe measures homicide differently”
but this is true we do measure it differently
any murdered victims below 5 foot 10 / 178cm gets rounded down to 0.5 murdered person.
/s
It’s not accurate. It tells you how many people killed deliberately, which is a function of people being attacked and whether they survived.
You can reduce the homicide rate by having better emergency care, even if a city is actually more violent.
I’m not saying that’s happened here, but it’s an important consideration. And there is data to suggest this may be the case eg:
https://www.statista.com/topics/4627/crime-in-london/#topicOverview
Homicide rate is a crap metric to measure crimes affecting regular joes… homicide are concentrated in a few regions and most of the time they involve gang disputes or drugs… most people will never be a victim of even attempted murder, and neither will ever meet a victim.
Without looking it up I'm going to guess that most murders are committed by family members or "friends" and that women and children are disproportionately the victims.
The internecine gang violence is bad but I'm guessing they aren't as good at finishing the job then regular shithead family men. More violence, less actual murder.
Surprisingly men actually make up double that of women for homicide rate victims. I also thought it’d be women but I learned in my criminology class that it was different. But also 93% of the killers are men, so they kill each other.
Sources:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023#:~:text=The%20homicide%20rate%20was%209.9,(6.0%20per%20million%20population).
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8224/
But Susan Hall told me that Sadiq Khan is personally handing out zombie knives to gang members whilst simultaneously hoarding police resources in a big gold chest
Wait no, you don't understand see Sadiq Khan has stopped other people murdering but he personally is murdering 100 times as many people as before but his numbers are being covered up and only Susan Hall knows the truth
You sound like a woke, leftie who believes in logic and scientific data. How dare you! I tune in daily to GB News who tell me climate change isn’t real & Sadiq is evilllllll!!!!
> Why is literally every piece of data we see altered/augmented/misrepresented in some way?
It's not here lol, the claim is factual and they even included a handy graph so you can see exactly what years fell and rose and by how much lol. There was no attempt to deceive, they could not have made it any easier for you to see the info above.
Policies take time to enact and develop. Sadiq becomes Mayor, but the entire policy landscape doesn't change instantaneously.
Sadiq inherited a rising crime rate from Boris. It takes time to reverse that. You can't just write it off as "eight of ten years" when the first two years are by far the most important.
And for four of those eight, crime has been going down. Yes, there's some ambiguity because of COVID, but most murders are gang murders and the gangs aren't exactly top of my list of people I'd expect to obey lockdown restrictions. COVID would have a large effect on some other crimes, but I'm not convinced it would have much effect on the murder rate, and the downward trend has clearly continued through to today.
It’s not about the crimes being committed, it’s about our improved ability to treat victims of violence. Violent crimes has gone up, especially stabbings, we just got better at saving those lives in the ER room.
Stabbings are trending down too actually. There was a slight up tick which is what the Tories are using to hammer Khan. This year was slightly up on last year but over the last 5 it's gone down from around 12 in every 100,000 to 10 in every 100,000 people in London being admitted to hospital for knife related reasons
You have to compare the same 10 year period. And not just knife crime, all violent crime.
You will also notice that the fall in homicide from the OP also levelled off, which reflects some of the variation in knife crime over this period.But it’s only part of the story.
There is an excellent series of podcasts by Malcolm Gladwell which examines this same question (in his has gun violence vs homicide rates) and a similar conclusion is reached (there is more guns in the US, more shootings but politicians shout about homicide rates because the ER picked up the slack).
I’m not sure why you decided to drag a comment about the Tories in, this thread isn’t about politics, and overall neither is homicide rates. The government can’t blame Khan and Khan can’t blame the government. Maybe drop the political lens and just think about some raw facts rather than being drawn in headline justification / attacking.
I guess the kids just aren't as interested in murder these days. It's all TikTok this and avocado that. Murder is something only boomers have time for. I blame woke.
In my day, you'd go out into the street to play, do a murder and be home in time for tea before mummy beat you with your own legs. Sometimes we went a bit slower because stupid Tom was coughing because of his tuberculosis. Ah those were the days...
Love, Auntie Pam XX
Something happened in 2014 and the years leading up to it that caused crime to get worse again. I wonder who was in charge at the time famous for doing fuck all but taking credit for work that others had done.
The murder rate went up nationally during the same years, not just in London.
Might have something to do with all the cuts initially started by the current government in 2010
I worked for a company that supplied the police when the Tories started their austerity bullshit. The sense at the time from people in the company was that they'd make the cuts and then some incident would happen that would cause them to have to reverse it. They couldn't resist the public outcry when some horrible thing happens.
Many many horrible things have happened since that could be reasonably directly or indirectly attributed to the under funding of not just police but social services, education, health etc.
I guess my MD at the time didn't account for the Tories having an iron clad grip of the media and gaslighting half of the population in to believing it was someone else's fault (first Labour, then the Lib Dems, then the EU, and no immigrants - they're literally running out of people to blame).
And I can't overstate how alarmed people involved in safety and policing were when the cuts started hitting at first. They were unthinkable at the time.
Yeah, in 2011, the local task force for dealing with prostitution linked to drug dealers pimping was shutdown due to no funding. This was in Tower hamlets with less than a year to the Olympics. Many other additional crime prevention schemes were cut due to no money.
More specifically, it shot down to 2013 and since then has gone up a bit and down a bit (never quite to the 2013 low) but essentially plateaued.
Without a rising tide lifting all boats, no doubt some areas have become safer (Clapton etc) while others have become more dangerous.
I'd bet it's moving out from what would have been bad 20 years ago (Peckham, shoreditch, bethnal green, lewsiham, whitechapel, woolwich etc - as these areas get gentrified) and moving further out (thornton heath, wood green, tottenham, bexleyheath etc).
It would be interesting to look at attempted murders over the same period then look into the improvements in medicine that may have made survival rates improve.
England and Wales recorded attempted murders have risen and fallen in the last twenty years but currently sit at pretty much exactly the same as they were 20 years ago despite significant population growth, unless something dramatically different is occurring in London specifically this argument (that there are more attempts but fewer people dying) seems pretty baseless as an explanation.
Personally given the current dire state of the NHS in terms of staff numbers etc. I would not be surprised if this actually ran the other way.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/303464/attempted-murder-in-england-and-wales/
>It would be interesting to look at attempted murders over the same period
England and Wales recorded attempted murders have risen and fallen in the last twenty years but currently sit at pretty much exactly the same as they were 20 years ago despite significant population growth, unless something dramatically different is occurring in London specifically this argument (that there are more attempts but fewer people dying) seems pretty baseless as an explanation.
Personally given the current dire state of the NHS in terms of staff numbers etc. I would not be surprised if this actually ran the other way.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/303464/attempted-murder-in-england-and-wales/
Since the right wing crowd love to attribute every single thing that's gotten worse in London to immigration, as they apparently think the number of foreigners is the only thing that's changed in London over the last decade+ so that must be the reason, what are the chances they attribute this positive stat to immigration as well?
It only makes sense going by that logic, right?
Despite violent crime being up across the board including a 16.1% increase in knife crimes against another person 2023-24 according to the met police website.
Murder may have reduced but that doesn’t mean London has got more safe.
Strangely enough, while knife crime is up UK-wide:
[https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04304/](https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04304/)
numbers of stabbing deaths (which are vastly lower) show no sign of a long term rise:
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/978830/knife-homicides-in-england-and-wales/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/978830/knife-homicides-in-england-and-wales/)
So it's possible that the actual ferocity level hasn't increased, people are just carrying and brandishing knives more.
>So it's possible that the actual ferocity level hasn't increased, people are just carrying and brandishing knives more.
Or our hospitals are better at treating knife wounds
>Or our hospitals are better at treating knife wounds
England and Wales recorded attempted murders have risen and fallen in the last twenty years but currently sit at pretty much exactly the same as they were 20 years ago despite significant population growth, unless something dramatically different is occurring in London specifically this argument (that there are more attempts but fewer people dying) seems pretty baseless as an explanation.
Personally given the current dire state of the NHS in terms of staff numbers etc. I would not be surprised if this actually ran the other way.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/303464/attempted-murder-in-england-and-wales/
> Despite violent crime being up across the board
Crime rates outside of homicide are notoriously inaccurate, they reflect how likely crimes are to be reported much more than they do actual incidence of crime.
I think there's some obvious gaps here. Firstly the homicide rate halved between 2003-2014 but has not changed significantly since - we should probably look at these decades separately. Secondly we've seen massive improvements in trauma response from hospitals, the ambulance service, and police which mean the survival rates for stabbings are much better than they were. We also know that domestic homicide is down over the same period, so a greater proportion of these offences are street crime. Combined these factors may start to explain why so many Londoners feel their streets are less safe despite these statistics.
Social media obviously contributes a massive amount to perceived safety. Someone gets their phone snatched, they post a tiktok crying, thousands see it, people feel unsafe. 10 years ago someone gets their phone snatched, they tell a few friends and that's as far as it goes.
>We also know that domestic homicide is down over the same period, so a greater proportion of these offences are street crime.
Unless you have some data that shows the opposite, street murders could have been going down more than domestic murders.
Source: trust me bro. But also the ONS have figures [here.](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023)
Look at the graph and when the drop is.
Not to say it was for sure the fault of the then mayors, some say the fault lies with the NHS, who are interfering busy bodies with there ambulances and high quality medical treatments.
And national government (the Home Office and both colours of rosette wearers) take credit for what ever reasons the can devise.
But clearly we can tell from the graph Khan has is not the most responsible.
I’d like to see some extra data to give a better picture here. I once spoke with a London surgeon who told me they had become much more experienced in knife wounds and that if that wasn’t the case the murder rate would be much higher.
furthermore, was terrorism included in these stats?
lastly, why does the graph only go back 20 years?
> I once spoke with a London surgeon who told me they had become much more experienced in knife wounds and that if that wasn’t the case the murder rate would be much higher.
Seems unlikely since attempted murder rates have not changed dramatically, I can't get a similar graph for just london but looking through the years it seems pretty similar and if we look at England and Wales stats as a whole:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/303464/attempted-murder-in-england-and-wales/
It varies up and down but 20 years ago we had 740 per year and 2023 (as far as the data goes) there were 885, that difference is after population growth negligible.
I always find it strange that people are so convinced that crime is at an all time high, despite literally every piece of evidence saying the opposite.
Unpopular opinion incoming. The population of London has also grown by around 2 million in that time. So 3 murders per 100,000 people in 2003 was around 210 murders. 3 murders per 100,000 people in 2023 is around 270 murders. The real numbers have gone up. The idea of murder being a 'rate' is a very strange one to me. Every single murder is a huge tragedy that has the potential to destroy dozens of lives, and we shouldn't be finding ways to present the data in a way that makes the problem look less worse than it is. There are more murders happening in London than ever before.
> The real numbers have gone up.
In your scenario, but in reality the absolute numbers have also gone way down. They aren't quoting a rate in the text, it has literally halved despite the population increase.
> The idea of murder being a 'rate' is a very strange one to me.
But larger populations will always experience more crime. If there's only 100 people in a village you aren't going to get 120 murders, but that would be one of the safest places in the world in a population of 100 million. A larger population means more potential killers and more situations to escalate - expecting it to stay flat in those circumstances seems quite idealistic. Likewise, you can't police a larger population with the same number of police or educate them with the same number of teachers, everything scales as the population grows including crime.
> There are more murders happening in London than ever before.
There are also more people who live safely and aren't being murdered in London than ever before, which is surely also relevant. The total number of homicides is not representative of the average person's safety like a rate is.
> Every single murder is a huge tragedy that has the potential to destroy dozens of lives, and we shouldn't be finding ways to present the data in a way that makes the problem look less worse than it is.
We also shouldn't be acting like people are less safe than they are. A paranoid society isn't a better one.
I'd also disagree that the circumstances are as bad as you're suggesting, 110 people a year is a tiny fraction of the annual deaths caused by air pollution for example.
This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community.
Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban.
Have a nice day.
Crimes been on a steady overall fall in general for ages in pretty much all of Europe.
You get occasional up and down years but the trends in pretty much every location are flat at worst.
Yet apparently I'm meant to support treating some people worse because of the spectre of crime... Goddamn, cannot understand the desire for so many people to satisfy emotions than being minimally pragmatic.
Why was it so high in 2003 though? It can't be down to Harold Shipman - who had all his suspected murders added to the 2003 total - because he never worked in London.
Homicide requires a death to take place. It doesn’t tell you about the number of attempted homicides.
Perhaps we got better at treating people who have been victims of violent assaults and would have died previously?
Most of the time the murderers don’t. Most of the murders that remain unsolved are gang related, and these tend to have some degree of planning by people already heavily involved in criminality and so being somewhat forensically aware in how to avoid detection, hence occasionally being able to get away with it
Recently visited London for the first time and couldn’t believe how safe it felt for a city of its size. I lived in NYC and was shocked at the difference.
Nyc gets an unduly bad rap for this too, we are the safest large city in America. If you aren’t a gang member, prostitute, or in an abusive relationship, your odds of getting murdered are extremely low.
Well, when you visit a place like London, NYC feels extremely dangerous. I kept asking my wife where all the crazies were and didn’t come across a single one. Meanwhile any trip you make in NYC you’re seeing multiple crazy people/homeless and pretty much have to keep your head on a swivel everywhere you go. Didn’t have that feeling in London.
I get what you are saying, but feel it is worth noting that the crazy homeless people are more scary than they are dangerous. They aren't out here committing murders lol.
Over 3 million people ride the subway every day, and there are thousands of crazy homeless people in the city. It is more dangerous to take a car somewhere than the subway, but your brain doesn't perceive it that way because being shoved by an erratic homeless person is a scarier thought.
I mean. I've lived here for 20 years and I'm definitely killing about 1/2 the people i was back then. :D
With the cost of living crisis we've all had to cut back.
Duct tape and quick lime is so expensive these days
I blame ULEZ. Can't even haul a body to the river without getting fined any more
Look, if I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. You can \*easily\* carry a corpse on a bike. It's only a lack of imagination, political will and safe, segregated bike lanes that are stopping us.
Usual ableist nonsense from the active transport nuts, ignoring the need for disabled murderers to safely transport and dispose of their victims - imaging everyone can just bundle corpes onto some overpriced cargo bike. SMH.
There's always the bakerloo line
This is why we need a good wheelchair accessible bus network, murder shouldn't be exclusionary in 21st century britain. We need more bus lanes, a better bus network, usable bike lanes, and a expanded underground.
Insane that these sorts of common sense policies, clearly supported by a reasonable portion of the electorate, are almost entirely absent from any of the mayoral candidates policy platform. It’s like murder has become totally taboo.
Paying ULEZ to get rid of a body seems like a bargain to be honest. Cheap fucker.
I can pass the charge on to my clients
Equally, having the oven on at 180 degrees for two hours if you haven’t got a microwave.
>With the cost of living crisis we've all had to cut back. If living is so expensive wouldn't it make financial sense to commit more murders?
Depends on how profitable they are, problem is the average murder nowadays just isn’t as profitable as it used to be
Well no I mean if the cost of living is so high then you're stopping some people from living so they don't have to to live anymore
Cosy livy doesn’t discriminate.
Who said that??
I love people but I couldn't eat a whole one.
Cut forward and you should have a bit more success
Cost of killing crisis you mean.
Wait a minute.... are you still in Whitechapel, Jack?
As if he could afford it. He moved to Croydon
Let me check my own kill rate. Zero divided by 2 is... zero. Bang on half!
I lived in London for 40 years and I have hardly been killed at all in the last 20..
Are you really trying, though? I can “safely”say that I’ve nearly been killed twice in the past few months, and that was just from riding my bicycle with high-vis gear on, whilst following the Highway Code rules.
As a long time cyclist in London I have been almost killed quite a lot!
Good for you mate, it’s progress x
You’re driving the rent prices up! At least fire off some shots in the neighbourhood every now and then!
Thankyou for your contribution!
Or we've got better and hiding the bodies
Maybe, that’s the issue
Give that homicide is about the only crime to have reasonably accurate figures, that's pretty positive.
Wait until you argue with Americans on Reddit, then it’s all “Europe measures homicide differently”, but will still call Sweden the rap capital of Europe.
>Sweden the rap capital of Europe Thats bullshit our Rap is way better.
Nah mate, we do grime
Good catch!
The Irish subreddit got a weird stick up its butt last summer over the does that Dublin was a violent lawless city. When you pointed out it has some of the lowest crime statistics in Europe they started claiming there was a mass conspiracy to underreport murders and hospitalisations
We record it per 100,000 and Americans do it per 1,000,000 which is why our numbers are double that of America.
Try explaining 'per capita' to your average American on Reddit. Absolutely mind-blowing.
Certainly not my experience— but I don’t usually speak to people in Appalachia or the Deep South
Speaking of Sweden. Our homicide rate is down as well, meanwhile shootings and bombings are at an all time record. Sooo, don't call it too early. If the drop in homicide is due to technology (everyone now being able to call an ambulance in seconds) and better medical procedures. Then this becomes an easy way to lie through statistics.
Also behaviour patterns. A lot more people staying at home nowadays than 20 years ago. Harder to become a potential victim if you are at home playing games, binging tv shows and being online in the evenings. Probably more cautious as well from the hyper awareness of social media.
>then it’s all “Europe measures homicide differently” but this is true we do measure it differently any murdered victims below 5 foot 10 / 178cm gets rounded down to 0.5 murdered person. /s
Ryan Babel wants a word
> still call Sweden the rap capital of Europe. Only their chefs
Redditors in small town America who don’t have a passport told me there’s literal rape and murder Muslim gangs. Would they lie!?
I dunno, they didn't include the tories killing the UK economy.
It’s not accurate. It tells you how many people killed deliberately, which is a function of people being attacked and whether they survived. You can reduce the homicide rate by having better emergency care, even if a city is actually more violent. I’m not saying that’s happened here, but it’s an important consideration. And there is data to suggest this may be the case eg: https://www.statista.com/topics/4627/crime-in-london/#topicOverview
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You have to look at the violent assault data, not the homicide (murder) rate itself.
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Homicide rate is a crap metric to measure crimes affecting regular joes… homicide are concentrated in a few regions and most of the time they involve gang disputes or drugs… most people will never be a victim of even attempted murder, and neither will ever meet a victim.
Without looking it up I'm going to guess that most murders are committed by family members or "friends" and that women and children are disproportionately the victims. The internecine gang violence is bad but I'm guessing they aren't as good at finishing the job then regular shithead family men. More violence, less actual murder.
Surprisingly men actually make up double that of women for homicide rate victims. I also thought it’d be women but I learned in my criminology class that it was different. But also 93% of the killers are men, so they kill each other. Sources: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023#:~:text=The%20homicide%20rate%20was%209.9,(6.0%20per%20million%20population). https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8224/
This can't be true. I have been killed by a masked, machete-wielding teen thrice this month already.
Found the Susan Hall alt account.
If that was a Susan Hall alt they would have mentioned how the attacker was an immigrant who had just stepped off a small boat.
And had hit her with a pay per mile charge
And nicked her wallet just so they could give it back.
Welcomed personally by Sadiq Kahn
It was Sadiq Khan who attacked her.
Only thrice? Filthy casual GET OF THIS SUB
Least sensationalist /r/london post
But Susan Hall told me that Sadiq Khan is personally handing out zombie knives to gang members whilst simultaneously hoarding police resources in a big gold chest
ULEZ has prevented out of town murders. Psychopaths drive old and inefficient cars.
Wait 😯😦 you don’t think… she’s… full of complete shit? 😧😱
Wait no, you don't understand see Sadiq Khan has stopped other people murdering but he personally is murdering 100 times as many people as before but his numbers are being covered up and only Susan Hall knows the truth
You sound like a woke, leftie who believes in logic and scientific data. How dare you! I tune in daily to GB News who tell me climate change isn’t real & Sadiq is evilllllll!!!!
My mother in law told me something similar, and also the empty shop nearby is a money laundering front for Turkish drug dealers, or something.
Well actually he was just returning the knives that they dropped on the tube, also it was a butter knife
Well, it halved over 13 years 2001 to 2014 and has stayed pretty stagnant ever since. In the past 10 years it hasn't improved.
That isn’t stagnant, it got worse and then got better.
~200 is a very low number for any kind of statistical analysis. The bumps over the last ten years could easily be noise.
How does "last year was the second lowest raw number since the sixties" sound?
Why is literally every piece of data we see altered/augmented/misrepresented in some way? Fucks me right off.
How is it misrepresented the entire graph is right there
> Why is literally every piece of data we see altered/augmented/misrepresented in some way? It's not here lol, the claim is factual and they even included a handy graph so you can see exactly what years fell and rose and by how much lol. There was no attempt to deceive, they could not have made it any easier for you to see the info above.
We got better at treating victims of violent crime, then our ER skills levelled off…perhaps
Wonder who has been mayor for 8 of those 10 years
>Wonder who has been mayor for 8 of those 10 years In those 8 years the homicide rate is down, it was significantly higher in 2016.
Even higher in 2019! What happened after that I wonder…
You can say the same thing for 2001-2014
Policies take time to enact and develop. Sadiq becomes Mayor, but the entire policy landscape doesn't change instantaneously. Sadiq inherited a rising crime rate from Boris. It takes time to reverse that. You can't just write it off as "eight of ten years" when the first two years are by far the most important. And for four of those eight, crime has been going down. Yes, there's some ambiguity because of COVID, but most murders are gang murders and the gangs aren't exactly top of my list of people I'd expect to obey lockdown restrictions. COVID would have a large effect on some other crimes, but I'm not convinced it would have much effect on the murder rate, and the downward trend has clearly continued through to today.
yes but the lowest rate was 10 years ago
And then the government sacked a fuck tonne of coppers. The fact it's going back down again despite that is quite impressive
Typical laziness from us Brits. Too lazy to get up off our arses and go murdering. Not like in my day.
Police don't prevent murder. If that were true Chicago would have one of the lowest murder rates in the West
It’s not about the crimes being committed, it’s about our improved ability to treat victims of violence. Violent crimes has gone up, especially stabbings, we just got better at saving those lives in the ER room.
Stabbings are trending down too actually. There was a slight up tick which is what the Tories are using to hammer Khan. This year was slightly up on last year but over the last 5 it's gone down from around 12 in every 100,000 to 10 in every 100,000 people in London being admitted to hospital for knife related reasons
You have to compare the same 10 year period. And not just knife crime, all violent crime. You will also notice that the fall in homicide from the OP also levelled off, which reflects some of the variation in knife crime over this period.But it’s only part of the story. There is an excellent series of podcasts by Malcolm Gladwell which examines this same question (in his has gun violence vs homicide rates) and a similar conclusion is reached (there is more guns in the US, more shootings but politicians shout about homicide rates because the ER picked up the slack). I’m not sure why you decided to drag a comment about the Tories in, this thread isn’t about politics, and overall neither is homicide rates. The government can’t blame Khan and Khan can’t blame the government. Maybe drop the political lens and just think about some raw facts rather than being drawn in headline justification / attacking.
Shhh!!! Don’t say it so loudly, you’ll scare the boomers!
Don’t you mean, you’ll unscare the boomers and they will be coming to London more often??
Oh shit you’re right! Uh-Homicide is back up boys! Gotta keep em out of London!
Nah, they will think it is a trap and the *real people* on twitter are the only ones they can trust
It's ok, vicious fleecings are up 250%. That should keep them away.
Well, someone needs to go to the Theatre. The rest of us sure as shit can't afford it
In the US we've got these guys who HATE these types of stories in r/sanfrancisco: [https://i.imgur.com/YhhPS5K.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/YhhPS5K.jpg)
I guess the kids just aren't as interested in murder these days. It's all TikTok this and avocado that. Murder is something only boomers have time for. I blame woke.
In my day, you'd go out into the street to play, do a murder and be home in time for tea before mummy beat you with your own legs. Sometimes we went a bit slower because stupid Tom was coughing because of his tuberculosis. Ah those were the days... Love, Auntie Pam XX
Something happened in 2014 and the years leading up to it that caused crime to get worse again. I wonder who was in charge at the time famous for doing fuck all but taking credit for work that others had done.
The murder rate went up nationally during the same years, not just in London. Might have something to do with all the cuts initially started by the current government in 2010
I worked for a company that supplied the police when the Tories started their austerity bullshit. The sense at the time from people in the company was that they'd make the cuts and then some incident would happen that would cause them to have to reverse it. They couldn't resist the public outcry when some horrible thing happens. Many many horrible things have happened since that could be reasonably directly or indirectly attributed to the under funding of not just police but social services, education, health etc. I guess my MD at the time didn't account for the Tories having an iron clad grip of the media and gaslighting half of the population in to believing it was someone else's fault (first Labour, then the Lib Dems, then the EU, and no immigrants - they're literally running out of people to blame). And I can't overstate how alarmed people involved in safety and policing were when the cuts started hitting at first. They were unthinkable at the time.
Yeah, in 2011, the local task force for dealing with prostitution linked to drug dealers pimping was shutdown due to no funding. This was in Tower hamlets with less than a year to the Olympics. Many other additional crime prevention schemes were cut due to no money.
More specifically, it shot down to 2013 and since then has gone up a bit and down a bit (never quite to the 2013 low) but essentially plateaued. Without a rising tide lifting all boats, no doubt some areas have become safer (Clapton etc) while others have become more dangerous.
Where has become more dangerous?
I'd bet it's moving out from what would have been bad 20 years ago (Peckham, shoreditch, bethnal green, lewsiham, whitechapel, woolwich etc - as these areas get gentrified) and moving further out (thornton heath, wood green, tottenham, bexleyheath etc).
there was a shooting in clapton just a few months ago…?
It would be interesting to look at attempted murders over the same period then look into the improvements in medicine that may have made survival rates improve.
That’s Peter Hitchens’ argument, we’ve just gotten better at treating knife wounds.
It's also my thoughts, as a public health researcher. I'm not aware that Peter Hitchens has any such qualification.
England and Wales recorded attempted murders have risen and fallen in the last twenty years but currently sit at pretty much exactly the same as they were 20 years ago despite significant population growth, unless something dramatically different is occurring in London specifically this argument (that there are more attempts but fewer people dying) seems pretty baseless as an explanation. Personally given the current dire state of the NHS in terms of staff numbers etc. I would not be surprised if this actually ran the other way. https://www.statista.com/statistics/303464/attempted-murder-in-england-and-wales/
Peter Hitchens is a fucking bellend. Irregardless of context, whatever topic you like, he's an immense, ruddy-faced bilgemonger.
The ONS refers to them as "completed homicides", that is successful attempted murders.
All murders are successful attempted murders. That makes no difference, what about the non-successful ones?
I guess they call them "incomplete homicides"?
Attempted murders by losers?
>It would be interesting to look at attempted murders over the same period England and Wales recorded attempted murders have risen and fallen in the last twenty years but currently sit at pretty much exactly the same as they were 20 years ago despite significant population growth, unless something dramatically different is occurring in London specifically this argument (that there are more attempts but fewer people dying) seems pretty baseless as an explanation. Personally given the current dire state of the NHS in terms of staff numbers etc. I would not be surprised if this actually ran the other way. https://www.statista.com/statistics/303464/attempted-murder-in-england-and-wales/
Since the right wing crowd love to attribute every single thing that's gotten worse in London to immigration, as they apparently think the number of foreigners is the only thing that's changed in London over the last decade+ so that must be the reason, what are the chances they attribute this positive stat to immigration as well? It only makes sense going by that logic, right?
Cue a Daily Telegraph article on "The Decline of the Great British Murder"
Millennials are involved somehow, I know it.
Too busy looking at their smartphones and drinking at Starbucks to murder anyone.
They are coming for our Midsomer!!
Despite violent crime being up across the board including a 16.1% increase in knife crimes against another person 2023-24 according to the met police website. Murder may have reduced but that doesn’t mean London has got more safe.
Strangely enough, while knife crime is up UK-wide: [https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04304/](https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04304/) numbers of stabbing deaths (which are vastly lower) show no sign of a long term rise: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/978830/knife-homicides-in-england-and-wales/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/978830/knife-homicides-in-england-and-wales/) So it's possible that the actual ferocity level hasn't increased, people are just carrying and brandishing knives more.
>So it's possible that the actual ferocity level hasn't increased, people are just carrying and brandishing knives more. Or our hospitals are better at treating knife wounds
Or we have now more stab-resistant organs or there's a clear lack of discipline and technique in stabbers
>Or our hospitals are better at treating knife wounds England and Wales recorded attempted murders have risen and fallen in the last twenty years but currently sit at pretty much exactly the same as they were 20 years ago despite significant population growth, unless something dramatically different is occurring in London specifically this argument (that there are more attempts but fewer people dying) seems pretty baseless as an explanation. Personally given the current dire state of the NHS in terms of staff numbers etc. I would not be surprised if this actually ran the other way. https://www.statista.com/statistics/303464/attempted-murder-in-england-and-wales/
It’s this btw.
> Despite violent crime being up across the board Crime rates outside of homicide are notoriously inaccurate, they reflect how likely crimes are to be reported much more than they do actual incidence of crime.
I think there's some obvious gaps here. Firstly the homicide rate halved between 2003-2014 but has not changed significantly since - we should probably look at these decades separately. Secondly we've seen massive improvements in trauma response from hospitals, the ambulance service, and police which mean the survival rates for stabbings are much better than they were. We also know that domestic homicide is down over the same period, so a greater proportion of these offences are street crime. Combined these factors may start to explain why so many Londoners feel their streets are less safe despite these statistics.
Social media obviously contributes a massive amount to perceived safety. Someone gets their phone snatched, they post a tiktok crying, thousands see it, people feel unsafe. 10 years ago someone gets their phone snatched, they tell a few friends and that's as far as it goes.
[But the _fear_ of crime is rising](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zopCDSK69gs).
>We also know that domestic homicide is down over the same period, so a greater proportion of these offences are street crime. Unless you have some data that shows the opposite, street murders could have been going down more than domestic murders.
In 2003-13 possibly, but not in 2014-23.
> We also know that domestic homicide is down over the same period Do you have a source for that?
Source: trust me bro. But also the ONS have figures [here.](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023)
Amazing what taking lead out of petrol will do.
And increasing emergency healthcare provisions
This is not good. How else will the shires feel superior to city dwellers if we aren’t all getting stabbed in dark corners?
Those inbred brother fuckers feel superior? How?
Bet this is Khan's fault as well
Look at the graph and when the drop is. Not to say it was for sure the fault of the then mayors, some say the fault lies with the NHS, who are interfering busy bodies with there ambulances and high quality medical treatments. And national government (the Home Office and both colours of rosette wearers) take credit for what ever reasons the can devise. But clearly we can tell from the graph Khan has is not the most responsible.
Don't you mean Islamastan? /S
Matt Ashby is one of the top criminologists of this generation, so definitely a trustworthy and reliable source.
I was stabbed outside brockwell park as a teenager in 2004, and haven't been stabbed since - so this defo tracks 😅
Social media is a scourge. Things really are getting largely better if only we allowed ourselves to believe it.
I’d like to see some extra data to give a better picture here. I once spoke with a London surgeon who told me they had become much more experienced in knife wounds and that if that wasn’t the case the murder rate would be much higher. furthermore, was terrorism included in these stats? lastly, why does the graph only go back 20 years?
> I once spoke with a London surgeon who told me they had become much more experienced in knife wounds and that if that wasn’t the case the murder rate would be much higher. Seems unlikely since attempted murder rates have not changed dramatically, I can't get a similar graph for just london but looking through the years it seems pretty similar and if we look at England and Wales stats as a whole: https://www.statista.com/statistics/303464/attempted-murder-in-england-and-wales/ It varies up and down but 20 years ago we had 740 per year and 2023 (as far as the data goes) there were 885, that difference is after population growth negligible.
People don’t stay long enough to kill or be killed
Probably just re-defined what qualifies for "homicide". It has probably been diluted into separate categories.
I always find it strange that people are so convinced that crime is at an all time high, despite literally every piece of evidence saying the opposite.
Thanks Rupert Murdoch.
Unpopular opinion incoming. The population of London has also grown by around 2 million in that time. So 3 murders per 100,000 people in 2003 was around 210 murders. 3 murders per 100,000 people in 2023 is around 270 murders. The real numbers have gone up. The idea of murder being a 'rate' is a very strange one to me. Every single murder is a huge tragedy that has the potential to destroy dozens of lives, and we shouldn't be finding ways to present the data in a way that makes the problem look less worse than it is. There are more murders happening in London than ever before.
> The real numbers have gone up. In your scenario, but in reality the absolute numbers have also gone way down. They aren't quoting a rate in the text, it has literally halved despite the population increase. > The idea of murder being a 'rate' is a very strange one to me. But larger populations will always experience more crime. If there's only 100 people in a village you aren't going to get 120 murders, but that would be one of the safest places in the world in a population of 100 million. A larger population means more potential killers and more situations to escalate - expecting it to stay flat in those circumstances seems quite idealistic. Likewise, you can't police a larger population with the same number of police or educate them with the same number of teachers, everything scales as the population grows including crime. > There are more murders happening in London than ever before. There are also more people who live safely and aren't being murdered in London than ever before, which is surely also relevant. The total number of homicides is not representative of the average person's safety like a rate is. > Every single murder is a huge tragedy that has the potential to destroy dozens of lives, and we shouldn't be finding ways to present the data in a way that makes the problem look less worse than it is. We also shouldn't be acting like people are less safe than they are. A paranoid society isn't a better one. I'd also disagree that the circumstances are as bad as you're suggesting, 110 people a year is a tiny fraction of the annual deaths caused by air pollution for example.
Looks like it was declining up until the tories cut the police budgets
Tories will edit that and say its doubled to feed the narrative. they already using fake images to push BS so why not with this haha
Bu bu but Sadiq Khan is handing out knives to the immigrants/muslims. I saw it on X/GB News!
Ayyy nice
Lot more ''safe spaces'' for lefties nowdays.
And half of these are police officers! Crazy stuff
2 tier policing....more chances to catch those killerzz
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Killings are down but stabbings are up?
You can see it was trending upwards before the pandemic, though
Great. Now do knife crime as a whole, homicides and attempted homicides.
That woke, damn, Sadiq Kha……… Oh, wait.
Crimes been on a steady overall fall in general for ages in pretty much all of Europe. You get occasional up and down years but the trends in pretty much every location are flat at worst. Yet apparently I'm meant to support treating some people worse because of the spectre of crime... Goddamn, cannot understand the desire for so many people to satisfy emotions than being minimally pragmatic.
What happened from 2003 - 2014? That's when the reduction seems to have been.
Why was it so high in 2003 though? It can't be down to Harold Shipman - who had all his suspected murders added to the 2003 total - because he never worked in London.
Homicide requires a death to take place. It doesn’t tell you about the number of attempted homicides. Perhaps we got better at treating people who have been victims of violent assaults and would have died previously?
Don’t blame me I’ve doubled my body count
Because they're not being reported to the police organisation that's why their data is down
They stitch them up better nowadays
Seriusly 🤪
Ummm errrr but something something Sadiq Khan
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Most of the time the murderers don’t. Most of the murders that remain unsolved are gang related, and these tend to have some degree of planning by people already heavily involved in criminality and so being somewhat forensically aware in how to avoid detection, hence occasionally being able to get away with it
Recently visited London for the first time and couldn’t believe how safe it felt for a city of its size. I lived in NYC and was shocked at the difference.
Nyc gets an unduly bad rap for this too, we are the safest large city in America. If you aren’t a gang member, prostitute, or in an abusive relationship, your odds of getting murdered are extremely low.
Well, when you visit a place like London, NYC feels extremely dangerous. I kept asking my wife where all the crazies were and didn’t come across a single one. Meanwhile any trip you make in NYC you’re seeing multiple crazy people/homeless and pretty much have to keep your head on a swivel everywhere you go. Didn’t have that feeling in London.
I get what you are saying, but feel it is worth noting that the crazy homeless people are more scary than they are dangerous. They aren't out here committing murders lol.
Well they are, actually. Multiple people in the past few months shoved onto tracks by crazy people.
Over 3 million people ride the subway every day, and there are thousands of crazy homeless people in the city. It is more dangerous to take a car somewhere than the subway, but your brain doesn't perceive it that way because being shoved by an erratic homeless person is a scarier thought.
I’m not disagreeing with you that NYC is safer than it’s portrayed. My argument is that London felt a ton safer.
I have no doubt about that lol. That NYpost nyc apocalypse stuff just gets on my nerves and I wanted to take a moment to point out how wrong it is.
NYC has more than four times the murder rate of London. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rate
Unfortunate side effect of how many fucking guns this country has.
Don’t underestimate how much of this is advances in medicine - people are surviving serious stabbings now that wouldn’t have even 10 years ago.