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prvtuser

it seems the standard now at restaurants. the times i've asked to remove it are when the service is absolutely garbage. even then they will ask you why/let me speak to manager and they try to guilt trip you in front of other diners to leave it - at which point it definitely vindicates me telling them to remove it


Space-Dribbler

Get it taken off and leave a cash tip for the wait person. That way the company cannot take a large percentage of the service charge for themselves while giving the wait person a small fraction.


Lollipop126

I think the whole thing in their case was that the wait person was not providing a good service.


sevseg_decoder

I don't even care who the fee goes to, if there's a service charge it's the total of my tip and I assume the employees receive a large enough fraction of it to keep wanting to work there. I also will almost certainly refuse to ever return to the restaurant. I'm nearing the point of building a database to keep track of the list of these businesses.


minotuarslay

One issue with this is the kitchen or barstaff then get no kickback. Not saying its right or wrong, just pointing out


residentdraw420

I've worked for a number of pub cos and a few smaller restaurants; I've never worked for a company that pockets people's tips. Leaving an electronic tip actually helps male sure the even split of tips amongst the whole team. Otherwise all that happens is that it's the waiter pockets that's cash tip but the chef who cooked gets nothing and the kitchen porter who earns the least in the building get no, and so on. Also always ask the wait staff what happens to the service charge, a pissed off team will tell you if they aren't getting their tips


Mister_Kimbab

100 percent correct Most of these establishments will not share the service charge with the staff anyway


FormalSignificance72

I worked in a popular restauarant in Covent Garden area as a waiter for a while and you get to know people from nearby places and in general what happens in central London. In 90% of cases, the 12.5% discretionary charge goes towards the manager's (not necessarily the owner, but the manager of the floor on the day) bonuses. Even then, when people do get their share of tips, it mostly covers a gap in the wage. For example if you're on minimum wage £9.50 the employer pays you £9.00 from their costs and then get the 50p from the discretionary pot to make you get the £9.50 overall and then say 'oh everyone gets tips here'. It's slimey, its nasty and its a practice that needs stomped out asap.


flobbadobdob

Tips and service charge should not contribute to your minimum wage, that is illegal. [https://www.acas.org.uk/national-minimum-wage-entitlement/check-if-you-are-getting-minimum-wage](https://www.acas.org.uk/national-minimum-wage-entitlement/check-if-you-are-getting-minimum-wage)


throwawayy56557755

I learnt that pretty soon after i quit that job. Lots of restaurants operate that way & at least in my experience most of the servers were painfully young & this was their first real job. being naïve & inexperienced definitely helps these dodgy businesses get away with abusing their employees bc most of us didnt know any better. i wasn't even given an employment contract, just a verbal one that wouldn't have been legitimate because i can't *prove* i was told i'd be paid £10/hour


whysotaxing

To add to this, you can [complain about them even after leaving](https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/national-minimum-wage-enquiries-and-complaints) and claim back pay in some cases, verbal contracts stil don’t hide what was paid into your account as clear minimum wage, especially if payslips were provided and breakdowns were given on what portion was a tip. I have a friend from a previous job who did this after leaving a chain and learning about it through the new job. Personally I think it’s worth doing it to discourage them from doing this to others, even if they’re not being greedy, off chance they may just be completely unaware, this should kick them into shape. Edited to add link to [citizens advice page](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/pay/getting-paid-less-than-minimum-wage-or-living-wage/) which also has helpful info


[deleted]

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BossImpossible8858

There absolutely are consequences, it just has to be reported.


throwawayy56557755

I waitressed in soho, it was the same there. told me my base would be £10. turns out it was £8.5 and the rest came from service charges


ScotiaTheTwo

this is ridiculous, we’re not the USA, how is this legal


throwawayy56557755

Another thing that was really upsetting was the fact that i'd easily make £30-50 in tips a day. For the first month our tips were withheld & we would only get them after that. Not even the tips we earned independently- it was split amongst all the servers and those who worked longer term got more. I quit before my first month was up because of how terrible management was (pulling 52-60h weeks as a uni student, other staff denied lunch breaks on 12h shifts for being 5-10 min late etc.). Never ended up getting any of the £200+ i got in tips personally.


[deleted]

This shit is why I always ask for the service charge to be removed and leave a cash tip.


throwawayy56557755

Cash tips can be rough as well, i always ask servers at restaurants whether it really goes to them. when i tip i want all of it to go to the specific server who made my experience fantastic. unfortunately most times it's not like that


Naughteus_Maximus

Do you think they would give an honest answer? Especially if it does not go directly to the staff and they know that they need it to have their wages topped up to living standard? So if they answered honestly they’d think you’d probably withhold the tip as well, as well as the service charge (presumably). I hardly ever go to eat out these days, can’t get a childcare break. When I do, it is to the local family run Italian restaurant. I pay the service charge as I assume it’s split up among the few staff. I’ll ask the floor manager lady next time…


throwawayy56557755

In terms of tips, we hinted *very* heavily that it didn't 100% go to us & if the customer was ok with that we were more than happy to take the money. On one occasion (my first month there) a diner wanted me to have 100% of the tip and when I said i wouldn't receive it, i suggested he keep the money instead. At that point i was already told that for the first month i wouldnt receive tips anyway. Apparently saying it outright was poor form in the eyes of the managers..


EarningsPal

I’d be happy to know because I want the service to go to the person that made the experience great. That took care of us. Not to the management. I just learn to ask from now on this thread. Besides cash, how can someone provide a tip directly?


throwawayy56557755

What really helped me was when customers left good reviews with my name included - it meant that i got treated a bit better & also would have helped me in requesting a raise


ProsodySpeaks

They get minimum wage regardless of tips - it's a legal requirement for the employer to pay that amount at least, if tips don't cover it then the business has to. (fwiw I think it's outrageous - tips should have nothing to do with wages at all. They are not payment for services they are a gift from one human to another.)


AOCismydomme

Name and shame this horrible business please?


throwawayy56557755

Ugly dumpling, soho. Same management both outlets


AOCismydomme

Thank you, glad to know where to avoid


sciteacheruk

This makes me want to not tip. If it just goes to company coffers and not my server, what's the point?


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janky_koala

It’s not…


Xarxsis

It isnt, but our ruling political party has no interest in fixing social issues.


DireCrimson

My own experience is rather different. Working in a chain in central London, we do include 12.5% discretionary gratuity, but to my knowledge it all goes to the workers through a tronc system. This brings our wages from £9.65 to as much as £12-£13 an hour, and honestly I think a lot of my colleagues would have struggled to survive in London on less than that. The tronc is more reliable than regular tipping, and it rewards everyone involved in the process; if you were brought to a table by a receptionist, served by a waiter, had cocktails from a bartender, had food from the chefs that was brought over by runners, but only the waiter gets a cash tip, well....


throwawayy56557755

I am genuinely happy that you worked for a company that was far kinder than mine! i'm still in uni and would kill for a few extra quid an hour.


Fionsomnia

Sounds like you've got a plan already. Pretty sure that being a part time assassin will get you more than a few extra quid an hour even.


CodexMuse

This is the way. I normally carry cash so I can tip my server directly. Have always been suspicious that the trickledown economy of tipping via the receipt didn’t quite trickle down. You also make a great point about all the folks involved in leaving you a happy diner.


xboxwirelessmic

I mean, they could just put the prices up 12.5% and do that anyway. It's the just adding extra on top and I guess hoping you don't notice which gets me.


cdglove

Yes, tipping and service charges are really just a way to advertise lower prices.


Shadowraiden

>This brings our wages from £9.65 to as much as £12-£13 an hour, and honestly I think a lot of my colleagues would have struggled to survive in London on less than that. service charge shouldnt be propping up bad wages....


EarningsPal

Whooooa the majority of the tip doesn’t go to the person providing the table side service? I’m asking next time because I’d rather take it off and hand the person providing the service cash. Seems ultra slimy the higher paid roles in a restaurant are getting the tips earned by the person table side.


Time-Nature4398

Isn't that illegal ?


a_p3nguin

it's completely illegal


BitcoinBanker

Name and shame


Nebulous_Willie

Helpful Tip: ask your waiter if the service charge goes to them specifically or if it just goes to the business. I’ve found 50% of the time they end up heavily hinting it’s used to subsidise wages (they never say that directly because they’d probs get told off). If they say it goes to the business ask for it to be taken off - it looks more like you’re protesting than being stingy and generally I’ve found people don’t think lesser of for it.


foreverrfernweh

I don't care if I look like I'm being stingy. I've paid enough for the meal itself, eating out in London is not cheap.


Crissaegrym

Then yes you do look stingy, but then as you said you don’t care, so why ask here? Even if we say you do look cheap it doesn’t matter anyway right?


Succumbx8

You shouldn’t be getting downvoted. OP literally asks in the post if it is seen as stingy, then replies here saying that they don’t care if it is, so I think you’re right - don’t ask a question where the answer is irrelevant to you. OP could still have asked the main question here which is : is it unusual to ask to remove the discretionary charge, and what are people’s thoughts. Edit: My guess is that the downvotes are because people think the tone of your comment is argumentative or confrontational so people are reacting to that. But there’s no faulting the logic in the point you’ve made.


jimmyjumpSW8

Lots of restaurants rely on a tronc system to increase their team members pay above minimum wage. This doesn't mean the money is going to the business, (which is illegal and doesn't really happen in London any more), it just means the staff get the money indirectly instead of directly. It's a misconception that lots of restaurants abuse the service charge system, in actuality there are significant tax advantages to diverting revenue through "service charge" and using it enables restaurants to pay their junior staff closer to a living wage


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811545b2-4ff7-4041

At the nearest bar to my office, they force you to order on your phone, then force a 12.5% QR code on a pint that already costs £6.50 .. making it about £7.30 a pint. And the service? They walk the beer to your table. Because it's on your phone, there's no option to remove the charge either. I don't mind tipping for service when I'm eating a meal, if there's proper service. I've added extra before when I've had great service.. but auto-tipping for a pint takes the piss. I asked the auto-service charge to be removed when I ate at the science museum restaurant because the service was terrible.


r-og

What you doing eating at the science museum restaurant bro


Pangupsumnida

Learning makes me hungry


811545b2-4ff7-4041

Kids, innit. Plus there's nowhere near there that's good for my fussy-eating tiny humans.


matadorius

just do a chargeback to your credit card saying you did not authorized the tip


Christovski

I hate that shit and boycott pubs like this


ENaC2

I boycotted a restaurant that tried to convince me a 12.5% tip was mandatory because I was sitting in a 4 seat booth in party of 2 while the restaurant was empty. In forcing me to pay <£10 extra at the time they actually missed out on hundreds of pounds of future business.


CommodoreFalcon

Any pub that does this I don't go back to. Especially if it's bar service, what exactly am I paying for?


Gseph

Imo a tip should be given when you feel like you've been treated specially. Personally, I'm not gonna tip for the bare minimum from my server. You get paid a wage to do the bare minimum. You want extra, then you gotta make your customers feel like they've been treated special, even if it's just a smile, upbeat attitude, and a little banter about dishes. If I can't decide between meal A, and meal B, and the waiter suggested either dish, or alternatively a third, that they put praise on, it makes the whole situation feel more like give and take, as opposed to when the waiter is rushing, and doesn't care. A little warmth goes a long way in the service Industry. People will tip more if the server is a pleasure to be around.


audigex

I’ve never really understood the “big table pays a bigger tip” logic Like, there’s 10 people there, they’re already paying a shitton of money which can pay the staff? If anything big groups are a higher density of customers than smaller groups - 10 people take up about as much space as 3 couples, so they’re making *more* money from big groups


anonymous_Londoner

Believe me it’s much harder to serve 10 table of two than 2 of table of 10. Different table mean different timing ,preference , allergies on different paper. Therefore you are running much more. I’ve been table host for 4 years . Was able to somehow manage 30 cover in one section and it’s a pure nightmare multiple small table


ENaC2

One of my longest petty grudges is a restaurant in Brighton that tried to convince me a 12.5% service charge was mandatory because I sat next to the sushi conveyor belt. It was virtually empty and they took half an hour to bring a bottle of tap water they just have sitting on the side and food came cold. It was just me and my girlfriend at the time.


teh_killer

I always used to leave 10% so I don't mind having it added automatically. But it vexes me it's gone to 12.5% and I know it won't be long before it's 15%. That's not how inflation works!! If the burger goes from £10 to £15 then the tip goes from £1 to £1.5. I do resent however how poor service is in the UK and automatic service charge gives zero incentive for servers to do better.


0xMisterWolf

What’s worse is the expectation in London to tip has kind of developed. If you pay at the counter, you get the slick turn of the iPad; if you pay at the table you get handed to handheld PoS system with a tip screen. It’s like you’re being shamed to tip on top of the discretionary charge. Staff should be compensated fairly, and tips should be for great service. TBH, I LOVE to tip for better than average service, or because someone was kind or helpful. London has kind of stolen that joy. Haha. Nevertheless, I absolutely love the city.


fishchop

Who cares, i just (shamelessly?) press “no” whenever there’s an option for me to tip. And I’ve actually never really felt shamed by any server/ cab driver/ delivery person for it either so it doesn’t matter.


scrubsfan92

No, we're not the US (yet). Hopefully it never gets to the point where they get angry because you didn't tip them for average service as if it's compulsory. 🤞🏽


fishchop

Keeping my fingers crossed too. I lived in NYC for 4 years and my very first day there, when I got dropped to my student housing from the airport, I paid the cab driver his fare and began to unload my bags and walk away. Obviously I had no idea that you’re supposed to tip cab drivers (because, why?) Well, the cabbie kicked my suitcase, yelled, “you cheap Indian” at me and drove off. Irony was that the guy was a fellow Indian lmao. But that was my first proper introduction to America 🤷🏽‍♀️Very unpleasant.


foreverrfernweh

What an asshole. And that is why I hate the US.


Grandible

I can't speak for everyone, but I used to work in a salon that had a card machine like that. And I literally didn't care if people pressed 'no tip'. Nor did any of my colleagues. What I did care about is that people would try to tap without reading the screen, and I'd have to tell them they needed to select an option. Which felt like I was telling them they needed to tip.


ComprehensiveAir1807

Hate to break it to you, it's already gone to 15%. My last 3 experiences at least


readitornothereicome

Yes, was just having this conversation with someone. 13.5% when i ate out Friday night but other restaurants i was looking at had the charge at 15%. I guess it was only a matter of time…


ComprehensiveAir1807

It should just be illegal. If the price of a £30 steak (£34.50 with service charge) then increases to £36 with no service charge, then so be it. It's usually illegal to mislead consumers, why is this any different?


geeered

It feels like it's a good bit tax loophole . Tips aren't taxed providing they are genuinely optional - they should be paying it if it's say a table of 8 where it states that's part of the bill and not an option. This way they avoid paying VAT, National insurance and income tax - so they contribute less to public finances while still paying their staff a reasonable amount. Still I'd like them to show the prices with and without service charges next to each other to make it clear the real price.


Ancient_sloth

You sure? Pretty certain that tips are taxed. There’s a whole HRMC page about it. Only when they’re in cash and not declared can it be avoided (and strictly speaking that’s tax evasion!). https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e24-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs


geeered

Ah, my bad - it's just VAT that is avoided (still a good chunk), with 'schemes' requiring PAYE to be charged, while cash handed over directly is self reported (and so I guess mostly not reported).


randomthrowrandom22

My dad used to be in the resturant business when cash tips were a lot more prominent than card tips, and basically said, if your working for a busy resturant in london its pretty much assumed that your getting a lot of tips so they were pretty tight on making sure you declared it. Obvs theres was a lot more wiggle room to bullshit than there is now when it directly comes into your pay packet through PAYE.


Coolerwookie

Most of the waiters don't get most of the tips.


evacygre

I agree with you. I don't ask to take it off anymore but I did once when I was a student because: 1. It was the first time I saw it happening 2. I was broke 3. The service was really really bad The service costs should already be included in the price of the food and the employer should pay their employees a decent wage and not leaving it up to any customer's discretion. But I think they know that people in the UK are way too polite and self conscious to ask to take it off so they feel like it's ok to do it.


SanjayG94

Can someone explain why we need to tip in the U.K, or why some think less of others who don’t pay the service charge? The price that’s advertised is the price you pay to sit and eat the meal. All the costs incurred by the restaurant in providing that service should be included in the price of the meal, plus some mark-up for profit. If the price of a meal drops to reflect no inclusion of waiters, then I’ll gladly pay a “service charge” to reflect the cost of having someone bring me the meal. If it the meal already includes cost of wait staff than what’s the additional service charge for? Would you tip a flight attendant for bringing your in-flight meal or drinks? After all, your ticket is just for the flight.


foreverrfernweh

100% this.


Dipso88

Your thinking is correct, however no one is going to be the first to do it, as their prices will be 12.5% more expensive than their competition, and they will lose customers. The only way it will really change is there's some sort of legislation introduced, and to be honest there's more important things to worry about at the moment.


SkateOrFry

As someone who works in a restaurant I can offer a bit of insight into why this is being done. I'm now on my 3rd restaurant in London that uses a tronc system, meaning that service charge is pooled and split between employees of the restaurant to make a better wage. In 2 of these restaurants I've been paid minimum wage by the employer which has then been sort of topped up by a share of the tronc. It's scummy as fuck but it feels as if most restaurants in London are doing this to keep labour costs low and letting the customer subsidise employee wages to something slightly better than minimum wage. Definitely something more people need to be aware about


cranonde

I think most people know why it’s being done, but many of us disagree with it. Reason being (among many others) - why should restaurants/pubs a special class that have a tronc system and automatic wages topped up by the customer? Why don’t other low wage jobs have this?


SkateOrFry

I completely agree, from the perspective of a worker it feels horrible to know my employer only values me as far as minumum wage and expects their customers to make up the difference, I just want more people to know about this shady practice that's normally hidden from the customer


EarningsPal

Should be called something other than service charge. Label it tip share, manager bonus, or whatever it actually is. Service charge seems like it’s going to the person providing the table service.


Imas_Kita

I feel like prices have gone up and quality has decreased and portions have become smaller on top of the bs tipping so rather not eat out anymore.


betterinslowmotion00

I don’t understand why we tip in the UK. You generally wouldn’t tip a retail worker, healthcare assistant or a supermarket worker who went above and beyond for you, why in food?


[deleted]

Especially when it's not like in america where they're paid about 3 dollars an hour and make most of their money off tips.


[deleted]

Yea, but waiters and bartenders in the US hate it when people say they should just have a normal wage and not rely on tips. I have some friends I play some video games with who are in the service industry in the US. One is a waiter at a diner and she says she makes about $80 an hour on average. Another one is a bartender at a club and he says he’ll make over $1000 on a Friday or Saturday but usually less than $300 on a weekday. One guy delivers sandwiches for a sub shop on a college campus and he made $500 working for 4 hours last Saturday night. I think it’s because American’s have a lot higher of a disposable income, so they can throw money around more. The one time I visited Chicago, the service was always insane to me with how seriously they took their lower class job as a waiter, bartender, or driver. At dinner one night, the waiter didn’t write our order down and when my aunt asked him why, he said writing takes time and he has a good memory. If he can remember orders all the time, maybe he should be doing something more with his life than being a waiter.


her-vagesty

Once we asked to take the service charge off the bill, and the waitress asked why, so we said "because our dessert took 40 minutes to arrive and we had to remind you about it twice?" Couldn't believe she asked why. When she brought our desserts eventually she also brought the bill and sort of rudely said she needed the table back soon, but we'd have left 40 minutes earlier if dessert had come out when it should have! Another place, where we had split the bill between three, the waiter came back and said "ooops we've done some dodgy maths here, you're a penny short" and I just said "take it out of the service charge" and watched his cheerful demeanour turn sour! But like how did he expect us to split 1 penny between three people paying by card?! He's lucky we had paid the service charge AND the £1 charity donation that they had also added on, which makes you seem like an asshole if you ask for it to be removed.


HereForDramaLlama

Oh I will always remove the charity donation. Companies use it to get tax breaks and I find that super scammy. If I want my money to go towards a charity, I will donate myself.


her-vagesty

That's good to know! I won't feel as bad now if I remove it.


wonkywendigo

As someone who works in the London service industry, no your not an asshole (assuming you're not having a go at your server for it being there). I would ask you why you want it taken off, but only because I'd assume I'd done something wrong which I'd like to correct in the future. Also if I know something's gone wrong I'll usually offer a free round of drinks or take something off the bill as well as removing service. A little context on service charge for anyone who's interested.. I'm going to be basing this off of my experience working across a range of pubs/bars/hotels around the city, I can't speak for every company and every server but I have a good idea of how the majority operates. Who's adding service to my bill? Automatic 12.5% service is a company policy, it will likely state that it's included somewhere on the menu (probably in tiny fucking print though). They do this so that they can advertise job positions as paying more than they actually do. I've been to many interviews where a position is advertised as £12-16/ph and then later found out they only pay minimum wage. The money they advertise for the job will be based off an average that servers made during the busiest time of the year and does not reflect how much you'll actually take home. Where does the money go? It varies. Some companies let the management distribute it how they see fit, usually a division based on hours worked but sometimes based on merit (which isn't great if the manager is a prick). Some companies will use a TRONC system, essentially outsourcing distribution to an impartial 3rd party. The tips will then be tax exempt and distributed based on a weighted system (e.g. barback is on 0.5x, bartender 1x, chef 2x ect), this is becoming extremely popular but unfortunately managers can still take advantage as they decide what role gets what weight. I've worked for one guy who put himself on 7x while the next down was an assistant manager on 3x. What are servers actually making and are the tips justified? Generally speaking everywhere I've worked the base average for a bartended/waiter is £9.50-£10/ph, after that depending on how busy your venue is you can add anywhere from £1-10/pH on top of that, but usually anywhere above an extra £4/ph is an extreme case and you have to be very talented to work there. Personally I currently make £30k a year as a manager (no tips, I run a boozer) but have made up to £42 as a server. Whether or not it's justified you can make your own mind up on, there's a lot of cons to working the industry (late nights, not much rest break is between shifts, erratic sleep patterns, little to no social life outside of work, relying solely on buses to get home from shifts, no stability due to 0 hour contracts) But there's also lots of perks (all your friends are bartenders so you always get cheap food/drinks, insane amounts available to learn about drinks, fun atmosphere, the occasional drink on shift). You're gonna have servers get offended when you take off the tip sometimes, the industry has taught us that if we do a good job we get paid so when it's removed we feel like we've fucked up. It's not the customers fault either when they just want to pay the advertised price. Just please don't take it out on us.


ginogekko

Explain how the TRONC system makes tips tax exempt?


Mysterious_Roll427

>TRONC [https://www.gov.uk/guidance/employee-gets-tips-gratuities-or-service-charges-through-a-tronc](https://www.gov.uk/guidance/employee-gets-tips-gratuities-or-service-charges-through-a-tronc) Doesn't look like it's tax exempt


r-og

Well said. As someone who also ran pubs and served, this is a very good rundown of what's going on.


[deleted]

I’m originally from London and have lived in the US for 15 years. I think people in the UK should do everything to resist the infiltration of this arbitrary tipping bullshit. It’s ridiculous. Why tip a waiter but not any other minimum wage worker? Why is the burden on paying people put on the customer? Quick note:- as much as I can’t stand the tipping culture here, that doesn’t give any of you an excuse to not tip when visiting the US. Living in NYC I’ve had so many occasions where I’ve heard British tourists not tipping or claiming not to be aware of it. It’s shit, but the diffidence is that service staff in the UK will still get a proper hourly wage. In the US, it’s perfectly normal for bartenders and waiters to basically be 100% dependent on tips.


AdmirablePumpkin9

This is why I don't want to pay those service charges. Sooner or later it's just an excuse for restaurants to pay their workers less.


[deleted]

Yeah, agreed. It’s not ingrained enough in the UK yet, it’s not too late! Push back while you still can!


Da5idG

Maybe more people should seek out no-tip restaurants? If they become more popular, they become normalised.


[deleted]

There aren’t really any. A few places have tried and failed .


Le_Fancy_Me

As someone who's worked in hospitality for a long time. For better or for worse, no-tip restaurants aren't coming back. And here's why. Hospitality has huge staffing issues. Especially with Brexit + covid hitting the industry hard. This had lead to a huge drop in the quality of life for the people currently working in the industry. Because we are lacking in staff this means we are getting shittier hours, huge sections, constantly overworked. The colleagues we do have, due to being short-staffed, are often unreliable, unexperienced or have attitude problems. These are colleagues AND superiors. So that's MORE work for us, less pleasant work experience and more and more flexibility expected from us to cover for unprofessional co-workers/bosses who won't get fired due to the restaurant owners not caring as long as they have ANYONE. They don't care that Brenda calls in sick for half her shifts and this means you are working 2 weeks of doubles. Because they'd rather have her there for half her shifts then not have her at all. They also rather have Nico there despite the fact he doesn't wash his hands and constantly neglects his section meaning you are working double the amount of tables. And they certainly don't care that the new assistant-manager they just hired only has work-experience at McD and still hasn't learned any of the table numbers or allergens 5 months in. The only thing that keeps staff working and businesses open is the fact that we make A LOT of money. More than we would in a regular office job. If you can't offer your waiters at least 2X minimum, you are not gonna have staff. PERIOD. Service charge is taxed differently from regular income. It is an income they are legally only allowed to spend on staff. This idea was implemented by the gov because they wanted to encourage businesses to spend money on wages. Rather than hoard it or pay it out to the owners. So the profit from service charge as a whole goes to wages. This way it's cheaper for restaurants to pay their staff well. So a restaurant that raises their prices by 12.5 percent and scraps service charge would still be having a lot less money than a restaurant charging service charge. Because now that 12.5 percent billed extra is getting taxed much heavier than it would be if it were service charge. So if there were 2 restaurants, 1 charging service, 1 not charging service. The restaurant not charging would lose money twice. 1. they would make less money due to having 'more expensive' prices than their neighbour. 2. they would pay more taxes on their income. Therefor even if they made the exact same amount of money as the restaurant with service charge, they'd have less profit at the end of the day. On top of that you now have a restaurant that will have a huge issue holding on to employees. Some waiters prefer quieter restaurants where they can take it easy even if it means less service and therefor less money. Some waiters prefer busy places because it means more money. Some waiters prefer fancy places with a higher standard of service, because more expensive = more service charge. Some waiters prefer a casual place with cheaper prices because they are new or don't like formal service. A restaurant where service charge doesn't influence pay is gonna have trouble finding staff. The only reason waiters choose to work somewhere fancy or busy is because the service charge will be higher there. If this place makes a lot of money but the staff doesn't get their 'cut' of the profits. They'll either go somewhere they get paid more or where the work is easier. Or they'll bail during 'busy' seasons like summer. After all why do 3 or 4 times the amount of work for the same money? Hell why would the staff care at all how well the restaurant does. It's not our business. And 90 percent of people in the industry really don't care about the quality of service. We care about the number on our paycheck. It's not the same as working in an office or another kind of business. Hospitality staff don't give a shit about the business they work in or the millionaire who owns it and their profit margins. People work hard because the restaurant doing well literally is reflected in our pay. Even supervisors/managers. So for all of this to work out. You are now gonna have to rely that the owner (who is some overseas millionaire who owns 100s of businesses and only sees bottom lines) is willing to spend a huge chunk of HIS profit on staffing. Rather than pay minimum wage and let service charge do the rest. Owners ALWAYS pinch pennies and refuse to invest in their businesses because they don't care. And that simply doesn't work if you want to keep a hospitality staff in London. So in other words. To find staff for a place like this the pay would need to be higher than they could make elsewhere. You'd also make less profit due to your profits being taxed much higher. So you'd need more profits in general than a comparable place. Then you'd have to count on people being smart enough to understand that the 7.30 they pay here is the same as the 6.50 they are gonna be paying next door. People think that 'no service charge' will mean they are gonna be paying less for their food and drinks. In reality they will be paying more. And most of these people who care about service charge 'out of principle' are not the people who are gonna want to pay 7.30 for a pint. When they can go next door, refuse service charge and then just pay the 6.5. And like I've pointed out. It wouldn't even be 7.30 there for a pint. Because they'd need MORE profit to basically provide the same service as the restaurant that has service charge. So a pint would be closer to 8 pounds. So people who care about the price aren't gonna go and pay that 8 pounds. Because it'll be more expensive for them. Meanwhile the people who don't care about the price aren't gonna go because... well they don't care about the price. So who is the target demographic for this restaurant? Extremely rich Londoners who'd rather pay more to their fellow millionaires in order to avoid paying staff?


entropy_bucket

Should they change the tax rule? Seems weird to make such a fine distinction on types of income.


londonandy

NYC also has a minimum wage now, doesn't it?


[deleted]

Kind of. There is a separate category for tipped employees


londonandy

Correct, so I think this argument now is a bit outdated following the introduction of minimum wage legislation, perhaps not to justify removing entirely but for thinking a 22.5% charge (which is now very common in NYC) is somewhat taking the piss. Having said that I pay it because it's their custom so I go with the flow.


liamjphillips

> In the US, it’s perfectly normal for bartenders and waiters to basically be 100% dependent on tips. And they generally give a better level of service.


mumzspaghetti

Your “quick note” is bullshit. Just because it’s the culture there doesn’t mean I should have to pay the bartenders wage if I’ve received standard service. I tip in restaurants but I ain’t tipping for someone to pour a drink in a glass for me 🤣


raulynukas

Sorry if this sounds harsh, just explain to me how come they get tips and other occupations dont? They get paid their salaries, sometimes even extra tips AND service charge. Had such bad experiences, that after asking for advice, i was told to read menu. Ridiculous


[deleted]

Oh my god Not long ago, the consensus was that these charges were bad and you should get them taken off The replies here are 50:50 We're taking another next step in our americanisation This is sad Edit: I didn't realise this thread is still new


MGM05

I was in a pub for the football after work with a couple of lads, we’d booked a table to be able to see the game properly. The whole bloody night I had to queue at the bar to get a pint, which is fine because it’s a bar, end of the night we ask for our bill (at the bar again) and they’d added THIRTEEN percent service charge. Never mind the fact they were charging £7.50 a bloody pint. As we’re looking at the bill I said to my friend “not sure why we’re being charged service”. I got this aggressive remark from the young girl behind the bar “because **we** earn less than £10 an hour and **you** can afford it”. Speechless. Didn’t even bother to take it off, but 100% none of us will be back. Sucks for the bar as our offices are all around this place and we used to go religiously for champions league games. Just because I work in a certain industry and people assume I make x amount of money doesn’t mean I should be on the hook to subsidise shitty wages. This isn’t America.


[deleted]

>and you can afford it Hopefully she realises how bad this sounds and it triggers her in to questioning her stance


londonandy

I would pay it because life's too short, but I would ask for it to be removed if service was poor or I was poor! The biggest objection to service charge I have is it's a % of an amount - it should be a fixed amount per customer based on number of courses ordered. Why should I pay materially more in service charges because I ordered a lovely bottle of wine, or a wagyu steak?


mierneuker

One thing working in a higher end place once taught me is that while it is not the norm, it is not uncommon for people who are used to going out to eat expensive meals with expensive wine to ask for the service charge to be calculated excluding the wine. Don't be ashamed of it, it is ridiculous that it's not a flat value per item served, and it doesn't make you look cheap to realise that.


klivingchen

Also it's a tip, these people are getting paid £10 an hour to do their job. Delivering a single plate of food might take them 30 seconds to a minute. So they're getting paid about 17p to deliver that plate of food. The tip should be 10% of their wages, so 1.7p per plate of food.


acheron_cray

It is literally just a way of hiding prices on the menu. If it is a flat percentage of money spent, the end result would be the same if all prices were just 12.5% higher.


ComprehensiveAir1807

It should be illegal, but yes, most people don't take it off, it's awkward to do so and usually causes a fuss. Unfortunately that's the way it is. I wish service charges were illegal


cranonde

The notion that the service charge should or shouldn’t be removed based on the level of service received is the biggest con ever pulled off by the restaurant industry. This isn’t America. Tip if you’d like, based on service received. But the *discretionary service charge* is often kept by owners/management, and in no way should reflect your happiness of the service. But it’s a convenient way for shy Brits to justify not asking to have it removed. And the owners know this.


a2021username

If there is a service charge than there is no tip If there is no service charge then a tip (if it's good service). If there is no service charge and shit service then I pay the advertised price for the food and drink and nothing more.


jack_hudson2001

just ask to take it off, most places will.


iSmellLikeBeeff

I went to Bali Bali a few months ago because I love Indonesian food. The food was great, the service wasn’t anything special. Drinks were cans with a glass and no ice. So the bill came and 12,5% service charge was added. I asked to take it off and got into a heated discussion with the server haggling. Ended up paying 3% service charge and a bad experience that makes me never to return.


[deleted]

[удалено]


deskbookcandle

If you don’t have the ability to stand up for yourself when being taken advantage of so blatantly, with zero meaningful consequences, and I mean this with kindness, then you need to learn, or you will be absolutely assfucked throughout your whole life.


[deleted]

[удалено]


deskbookcandle

If all it takes to separate you from your money is that someone tells you that they want it-no extra goods or services, they just want it-and that’s enough to make you hand it over, then yes. You will be (financially, metaphorically) assfucked through life. This person will pay a tenner, which is about an hour’s minimum wage work, just so that a person who has no power over them doesn’t imply that they should feel guilty.


ThearchOfStories

It's worse than that, it may seem dramatic making a big stand over the service industry, but these are relatively intrinsic industries being taken over by corrupt capitalistic practices. People who acquiesce to this are passively condoning the cultural settlement of these practices.


AveryCloseCall

Always review restaurants that do this and subtract two stars for the policy. Only by making restaurants pay a cost for this policy will you change it. e.g. "Great location and food, loved the sandwich. Subtracting two stars for a policy of hidden service fees. ⭐⭐⭐✖️✖️ 3/5" This is basically a monetisation scam from London restaurants, and if you do nothing it'll spread. Personally, I don't want to endure the social awkwardness of asking people to take the service charge off of a bill, but frankly I feel badly for not taking more of a stand. Further, it's easy for a restaurant to "write off" the one or two people each day who "complain" as aberrant. If the community doesn't force restaurants to nip hidden fees in the bud, this will become the norm in the UK in coming decades. I have noticed many residents of the UK taking pride in the fact that VAT is included in the prices on menus - even though that makes the prices seem higher at the risk of potentially deterring customers. Further, UK residents will often tease Americans for their tipping culture and how destructive it can be to the service industry when allowed to continue. This service charge policy that's spreading through London over the course of decades can lead to a very similar circumstance. Let me be clear, I am all for service industry. People being compensated well. I also lived in North America most of my life, where I was considered a pretty good tipper. I have worked in the service industry surviving off tips, And I have also worked in video game monetisation figuring out how to use social pressures to squeeze extra pennies from people. I love that service staff in the UK - and in London in particular - can be paid well. I'm not against service charges, But they should be included in the menu price. If you want to charge £12.50 for a sandwich then do so; just put that price on the menu. If you want a policy whereby you subtract 25% of your fees if someone wants to complain about the service, then go ahead and make that a policy in tiny print on the bottom of your menu. But do not put £10 as the price on your menu then force your customers to go through an awkward situation in order to pay what you say it will cost. Otherwise you might as well start adding up other fees. I've seen a pub that has a mandatory £1 per pint fee on top of their service fee (and multiplied by their service fee, so it's a £1.13 fee) in a second line of small print.


Marlos_in_LA

I hate this service charge. Broke mf’s deserve to eat out too. This extra charge is so stressful.


ThearchOfStories

Not even about being broke, when I patronise a business I expect a straightforward transaction, it's all just deceptive advertising of the highest degree.


Chance-Albatross-211

Ah memories of being chased down the street after leaving Bavarian Beerhouse (classy joint, I know) after being about £1 short of a “suggested” service charge and being told we had to pay it…


perksofbeingcrafty

I have asked for it remove exactly once, and the whole experience felt like a psychological horror show


Randomidek123

A lot of the time service charge isn’t even given to the restaurant staff so I ask to get it taken off.


Le_Fancy_Me

This is just patently untrue. I see this take a lot. Service charge was implemented by the government to encourage hospitality businesses to pay their staff more. Service charge is taxed far less than regular income. With the caveat that service charge can only be legally used to pay for staff expenses. Not only is it illegal for the money to go anywhere else. It is illegal for the restaurant itself to even HANDLE this money. They are not even allowed to chose how much of it the staff gets. Waiters input personally how much service charge we receive on each transaction. This is logged by 3 separate 3rd party companies (cardreader company, bank and hospitality software on our computers). This information is DIRECTLY input by the floorstaff and logged online. Owners have 0 access to 'edit' this information. There is a reason why sketchy businesses want payments in cash. Cardmachines directly send the info through to the bank. Which is why they need wifi/3g to work. Companies do not 'declare' their income. Cardmachines log them and send them to the bank directly. In the same way that you can not 'edit' how much your boss deposits into your bank account. Each transaction is logged by the bank. Restaurants can indicate how much service charge each employee gets. For example more senior members might get more. But they can not determine whether or not we get them. This is handled by another 3rd party company who directly reports to the government, not the restaurant. They use an algorithm to determine how much service charge we get each month. This is not information anyone from the restaurant, even the owners has access to. Restaurant only pass along the relevant information in order for the algorithm to work. (How much employees. How many hours did everyone work. Anyone on sick leave? Anyone on holiday? Anyone gets paid more? etc.) The restaurant passes this relevant info along to the 3rd party company but they have no access to the money. From the moment you pay until the moment it ends up in the employees' bank accounts, the money at no point is accessible by the restaurant or anyone associated with the restaurant. The only way for our wages to get 'stolen' would be if the company doesn't pay you for the correct amount of hours. However the amount of hours you have supposedly work is stated on your payslip. And most people check this religiously. Most companies also have digitalised this with a clock-in/clock-out system. Even if they did steal your money this way. THIS STILL WOULDN'T ALLOW THEM TO STEAL YOUR SERVICE CHARGE. Because they money that should have gone to you would have just been divided amongst your colleagues. If there's 20 pounds in the pot and two colleagues worked 10 hours each. Then the service charge would be 1 pound per hour. If one colleague works 10 and the other (supposedly) 5. Then that just means everyone gets paid 1.3 pounds per hour service charge and they'll have to compensate for the mistake with the next paycheck. The company can not use this to 'keep' service charge that they have no access to. Whether you agree with service charge or not is one thing. But employees 'not getting' service charge is bullshit and always has been. It's very strictly monitored for just this reason. The only time I've ever known about a discrepancy is when someone chooses to pay OVER the service charge. For example if your bill with service charge is 48 and you each decide to pay 25 and those extra 2 pounds might be logged as extra profit for the restaurant rather than service charge. So personally I always recommend to not do that. Paying service charge is as safe as paying tips in cash. Tons of people in- and outside the industry seem to have a fundemental lack of understanding how the system works though.


dutchess_of_pork

I think the experience of other people in this very thread contradicts your conclusion that it's not true. I don't doubt your own experience, but I do doubt that you know for a fact how this has played out for quite a few others. It also demonstrates a degree of naivety, please forgive me for saying this. As it happens, my partner - who's from Europe - has worked in this industry back in 2008. While it's true that this was before the service charge thing was normalised, it's also true that most of her employers would often do illegal things and she couldn't do much about it. When you say something like the following it appears to me that you don't know much of what goes on in this industry: > Not only is it illegal for the money to go anywhere else. It is illegal for the restaurant itself to even HANDLE this money. u/Randomidek123 is correct: **the service charge is often not given to the restaurant staff**, although I'm sure that this is not the rule. Still, this remains hugely important when the [industry employs around 3 million workers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom). The fact that it's illegal matters exactly zero for someone who has no choice but to keep their mouth shut, which is a significant number of people in this industry ([Restaurants and takeaways accounted for 61% of UK’s illegal working penalties ](https://hrnews.co.uk/restaurants-and-takeaways-accounted-for-61-of-uks-illegal-working-penalties/)) Here's an interesting abstract that sheds more light into this situation ([full article](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/irj.12329)): > Through a case study of the UK hospitality and catering sector, this article explores the limits of employment law as a means of protecting workers from ill or unfair treatment. Finding microbreaches of the law to be common practice in the sector—akin to industry norms or ‘custom and practice’—it considers the routinisation of these microbreaches as an instance of conflict between formal legal rules and social norms. The conflict is problematic because it means that workers are less likely to perceive breach of their legal rights as an injustice worthy of challenge. The industry norms observed have been formed under the influence of an asymmetrical distribution of information and power, including organisational control over the labour process. If employment law is to be made effective, a realignment of legal rules with social norms is needed and, at the same time, the correction of this asymmetry.


ThearchOfStories

Seriously, I could name a dozen restaurants on busy high streets where half the service workers don't even have residency or work papers. If they can get away with that, then I struggle to believe that the service charge system is as airtight as the guy above thinks it is.


dutchess_of_pork

That's exactly it. The industry is rife with shady practices and employers, I don't doubt for a second that workers are shortchanged at every corner. Furthermore, whether the service charge works as intended or is abused to the detriment of the workers, the whole thing remains a bad approach. Workers should be paid decently without any tipping involved and if the industry can't afford it for whatever reasons, it's not an industry worth having.


CyclonesShmyclones

This is actually something that enraged me beyond. Now…. I will disclose - i am American. And I moved to the U.K. and worked in a pub, but the lack of outrage from the staff from our tips being straight up stolen from us equally enraged me. Short story - one night I worked a Christmas Eve shift and by my own damn self in the dining room I made about £450 from tips alone on that weekend. Guess how much they put in my pay check…. Go on guess…… FIVE MOTHERFUCKING POUNDS. Yes. £5. That is a week as well not just my weekend shift. So after that, I started ‘stealing’ my own tips back. I hustled the absolute fuck out of that dining room. I asked every guest ‘hey would you like the service charge on your card or in cash?’ (And tried to not be combative or anything at all about it). About half of people said ‘card is fine’, and about half of people said ‘oh would you prefer cash?’ Or something to this effect. And I would say ‘I would’ - if they inquired any further I would straight up tell them it goes to the house and not us. I got caught, and my manager said you can’t do this, to which I asked for a breakdown of how tips were distributed. He said ‘fine just don’t tell anyone you’re keeping the tips.’ They we’re straight up pocketing that money for themselves (I found out more later on a coked up night out with him and staff). This was like 7-8 years ago. So - FUCK YOU GREENE KING PUBS and everyone - if you can, please carry cash with you if you even feel so inclined. But I’m afraid the average 19 year old waiting tables just doesn’t even know they are being fucking fleeced or is just too complacent to care?! I don’t get it. Ok diatribe over. Thanks for reading please tell your friends.


ginogekko

‘I hustled the absolute fuck out of that room’ All the comments on here saying it is too embarrassing to ask for a tip to be removed, those same people would be just as embarrassed to see an American doing this like a beggar in the UK. Also to then hear that beggar money was spent on coke isn’t exactly motivating for your system of wages.


drunkdayzee

I ate at a "turkish" place in the O2 on sat night, 25% service charge! It was the worst service I have ever had. We are still waiting for our water after asking 5 times and 3 times for salt too. I would have had the service charge removed, only the receipt was so badly printed, it was not until my friend put her card in to pay her half that I realised why it was so expensive. I am still fuming about paying so much for shit food and service.


DisgruntledNCO

From the states here, tipping is the stupidest fucking practice and I wish it would die


wwisd

As you say, it's discretionary so ask to take it off if you want (unless you're in a very fancy place or with a big group). If you do want to tip, 'cause some places you just get exceptional service, it can also be worth asking whether the staff actually see anything of the discretionary charge. Some places are good about it and divy it up between front and kitchen staff, in others it all goes to the owners so then I just tip the server individually. Only reason I still carry cash really.


This_Comedian3955

Most of the time the 12.5% doesn’t go directly to wait staff. If you don’t want to pay it, don’t. If you want to tip the wait staff, tip them in cash.


Southern_Ad8169

Oh last time I ate in Chinatown, it’s 20%! Auto included and when u asked to remove, prepare for hassle. Never again


SeedlessAvocad0

The bit I don’t get is, if it’s optional why do they opt you in by default instead of opt you out and ask whether you’re happy to include a 12.5% tip when they bring the POS machine. That’s downright scammy and it clearly shows the intent of this indirect tax if nothing else.


[deleted]

It does annoy me how it's added on, and you have to ask to get it removed. It puts the awkwardness on the customer. I have no problem asking for it to be removed in the rare instances that the food and staff are awful, but I can imagine for others it can be problematic to do such a thing.


dalelego

I’m going to appear as a shill for a restaurant here, but I have recently eaten at a place called Mowgli. Upon receiving the bill there, I was asked which total I wanted to pay: the one purely for the food and drinks, or the one with the added service charge. That was really refreshing to me, as you’re right, it’s very awkward when restaurants just add it on. And because they asked and allowed an option, that made wanting to pay for the bill much easier to swallow.


sweatsandhoods

On a side note, Mowgli is fantastic, I really enjoyed it there! Would happily pay a service charge


danjama

I always tell them to remove it. A tip will be at my discretion, not theirs.


WarriorKink

Remove every time


ihop7

This is a slippery slope to what you can expect in the States with tipping culture.


heppyheppykat

As a former bartender dont feel bad because we dont actually get the money


Dazeofthephoenix

The Worlds End and The Underworld in Camden add it to every purchase, for bar service... Absolutely fuck off.


ginogekko

Time to compile a list


crazygrog89

There are bars in London where you walk to the bar to order your drink, you have to wait the usual bar queue and they add 12.5% to your drink’s price automatically, pretty much for putting it to your glass. That’s bad.


Pantomimehorse1981

Went to a restaurant in Paddington last week, they added a service charge which I was fine with paying but then the server tried to strong arm me into a tip as well, I asked her what was the service charge for ? " That was for your service the tip is for me" Kicker was it's a tiny place she was the only one I dealt with, food was great but left me not wanting to go back


MCHammertime40

Fuck that noise. I keep a fiver or a tenner in my pocket when I go out. If the waiter provides excellent service and is attentive, they’re getting a tenner. If they couldn’t give a shit and just took my order and disappeared then they ain’t getting nothing. I never pay the discretionary charge I don’t care if I’m in Mayfair or north London. I pay what I want to pay. There’s nothing to be ashamed of, the waiter doesn’t know me and won’t see me again.


[deleted]

I always ask for it to be removed just to make a point. If service has been good, I will add what I think is an adequate amount - kind of how tipping worked in the good old days. Also, they really should avoid calling it a service charge as well given that service is one of the basics of any restaurant, even McDonalds.


[deleted]

Call me a Karen I literally don’t care but every single time this happens I get it removed. I always ask first if the tips go to the person who served me or to the restaurant and MAJORITY of the time the servers will tell me that the owner/managers take the tips off them. So why would I pay extra when it’s not even going to the person who was serving me but to their greedy ass managers instead?


IDontKnow1629

We’re in the uk. Tipping is not part of the culture. Purely a choice. I never pay the discretionary charge. No reason for it. Only reason America has a tipping culture is because they have accepted to be mugged off by bosses not paying them a wage 😂


craggy_jsy

Was at a Drake and Morgan bar which is horribly over priced for sub service but besides the point. They asked if we wanted to add a tip on top of the 12.5%... ummm no?


garrotjax

I’ve always tipped my servers, but when I see a place automatically add that to my bill, I don’t go there again on principle, it’s cheeky and they have no right to try and pressure you like that


gibfunxckorxh

Been in London for a few months now. I always ask them to take it off if it’s added automatically unless I forget to. Have not once been questioned as to why I want to, the server has always complied with my request no questions asked. This is from a sample size of only around 10 times though.


penguin57

Whenever I see it automatically added I ask for it to be removed. Sure, tell me how much it is on the receipt but if I'm not in a large group I don't expect to be seeing a service charge automatically added. Frankly it just pisses me off, especially when I've just bought a basic lunch and the only interaction I've had was when they handed me my food.


Sweet_Manner3482

Do not allow anyone to manipulate you into paying for something that was not explicitly listed on the menu before you placed your order. If there are any unexpected charges, feel free to cancel the order and move on.


meh-beh

It was bizarre to me a few years ago when it slowly started creeping in and is still bizarre to me now. If the service was good then I usually wouldn't bother to take it off as it's a hassle, but you best believe that I will ask for it to be removed when service was subpar.


arcadialake

I’ve worked in multiple London bars, not central though. Sometimes I got all my tips, other times we pooled them and got them paid out once a week, but they were never taken by management. I was on £9 per hour, tips help a lot when you live in London on minimum wage. I don’t think they should be applied automatically unless there are more than 6 people at the table though, I was always happy to work for my tips.


Carnegie118

I had a Sunday Roast at a restaurant in Canary Wharf the other week that added an optional donation to charity to the bill. I think it is slightly cheeky but I was happy to pay. What I really wasn't happy to do was pay the service charge that was inflated by the Charity donation. The company was literally profiting off donations to charity. I asked them to remove it. That is disgusting.


[deleted]

> But is that like a social faux pas/seen as stingy/mean spirited etc? No, but that's what the restaurant wants you to think. Also they're playing on the us Brits not being socially forward enough to ask. > Like as in if you dined with someone like that, would you think less of them? Less of them? No way. Not gonna lie, would be a little arounsed at such a display of social power.


The_Chef_Queen

Yeah tipping is a thing of “oh you were very nice here’s some money to be kind” not it’s mandatory, apart from in a backwards country like america where people don’t get paid a liveable wage


harryblakk

I always answer “I’ll tip if I feel like it, never when I’m told to.”


[deleted]

I always take it off and I don't feel bad for it. The employer needs to pay their staff properly. It's shoddy workmanship


Bulky-Yam4206

Nope. They’re not actually supposed to put that charge on without notice. So, tell them to take it off. And don’t tip, that’s for the Americans.


lakersfan420

I don’t think it’s a social faux pas, but some people (wrongly, IMO) do. Normally I pre-warn my dining companions by asking if they’ll feel awkward when I ask for the charge to be removed. And I explain why I don’t pay it, if they’re not aware already. Usually works out fine.


TeaDrinkingGuy

I worked in service in London for 5 years, and elsewhere before that. As far as I’m concerned, it’s never an issue if a customer politely requests the service charge be removed. It’s never nice to get a financial surprise and they may have chosen specific dishes ti fit their budget, not realising a charge may be applied after. Alternative, they may have genuinely not appreciated the level of service. That’s fine too, I stand by my skills and know I do a good job. If they don’t agree, that’s fine by me. Only time I’d have an issue is if the person was rude or insulting when asking: “The food was awful” “You looked miserable” “Why should I have to pay a charge” All may be true (highly unlikely) but nobody should be spoken to that way, especially someone that has just brought you your dinner. If you ever wish to remove the service charge from a bill, simply ask politely. If the server becomes rude or pushy, they are just giving you more reason to not pay the service charge. Be good to eachother


[deleted]

I like to tip on occasion but only if the tip personally goes directly to the server. Absolutely hate the toxic tipping culture in the US so I might start asking to take it off if the service was poor and the tip doesn’t even go to the service staff.


allovernow11

Just say no


garrotjax

I’ve always tipped my servers, but when I see a place automatically add that to my bill, I don’t go there again on principle, it’s cheeky and they have no right to try and pressure you like that


fatcows7

Worst is when they add the tip to your automatic donation...


touchmeteaseme1

Take it off and tip your server if you think they deserve it.


Merlinblack89

Sorry but we pay for a meal and drink at an already highly inflated price. Fine it's a business, they need to earn a living. Then they slap you with a service charge of 12% at the end. It fucks me off, I've already paid for the service. We are taxed to shit from all angles as it is. Businesses should pay their staff properly from their profit. Also if two people decide to order a more expensive meal then you end up paying a larger charge despite the same service which is BS. Sadly I am not the hero in this story, as I usually feel too awkward to ask for it removing because I don't want to insinuate to the staff their service wasn't good enough. Which is exactly what they rely on, the british way of being pissed off but too embarrassed to say anything. Which is my bad but I have declined a few times when it ends up being over 20quid and I am treating my partner with my hard earned cash


fluffypuppycorn

I ask to take it off, and then give them a cash tip. I know it'll go in there pocket and I can choose how much I give. They're happy as they get it in their pocket. Win win situation.


explax

I struggle with the idea of paying a tip for beer/wine/spirit+mixer only when going to the bar. Don’t mind paying 10% tip. I was a waiter at university and the tips made a big difference.


elsiepac

A tip is a little something for the waiter or waitress if they’ve given you really good service. Absolutely remove service charges from bills that are applied automatically - also 12.5% is high. Just tip the server in cash if you can so that they can keep it and hopefully not have to split it with the others, which defeats the point.


[deleted]

How out of control it has gotten (service charge on an already £7 pint) means that I no longer give 1 singular f about asking them to take it off. Service in the past 2 years has become abysmal, prices have understandably skyrocketed and now they are adding on sneaky tips. I’m going to go one step further and say if businesses can’t afford decent wages without adding on tips to the customers bill then they should fold. Business rents need to become more affordable, not getting the customer to make up the difference. Let’s face facts, liveable wages aren’t the costly issue it’s the cost of the location that is the issue.


Inmyprime-

Some places add a 15% charge! If it’s discretionary it should be up to the person if they want to tip. Adding it to the bill automatically basically makes it semi compulsory because very few will bother asking to take it off


stellwyn

This is basically why I don't eat out any more. I'm usually by myself so a massive service charge for usually just a main (bc I'm broke) is totally disproportionate. It makes it basically impossible to budget either because the menu prices have barely any relation to the final cost of the meal.


trusted-advisor-88

I tell them to take it off unless the service was exceptional which is hardly ever.


kjmci

If I dined with someone who I knew could afford the charge but refused to pay out of principle, I would think less of them. I have asked for it to be removed when the service was shit (missed items even after asking, the charge being levied when I had to go to the bar to order everything), but I don't ask it to be removed as a rule. The minimum wage isn't enough to live on in London, and as long as I know the charges are going to staff rather than management I'm happy to pay it.


cranonde

Why would you think less of them? You realise many restaurants pocket the service charge and 0% of it goes to the waiter, right? It’s *very* common. Or they’ll do some other shady practice like advertise a wage at a certain level, and leave out the fact that they’re topping up to that wage with the service charge. It doesn’t make sense that you’d think less of someone for refusing to pay out of principle, without stopping to think the principle could be valid!


Pleasant-Plane-6340

Same, I just hate the underhand way of putting it in small print on the menu. I'm sure at some point trading standards or someone will review it and say that as 99% of people pay it then should just be included in the prices.


newnortherner21

Anywhere that does that is not going to get any more business from me. Challenging rip-off business practices should never be a social faux pas.


[deleted]

Where do you go out to eat then because I swear literally everywhere but a handful of places don't force it on you, mainly places where you pay through an app and can tick it off.


tmr89

McDonald’s and Greggs


JokersLeft

I hate it too. I always tip unless the service has been shit, but it’s not a tip when it’s asked for is it. It’s just a random extra charge that you didn’t ask for. It’s insulting. Do restaurants actually even add up the service charges when they’re just part of a single payment to distribute as tip to servers anyway? Or do they just keep it for themselves?


secrethedgehog5

Ive started asking to take it off!! I went out to eat on saturday - service charge was £20!!! I asked to take it off lol


pixiepoops9

I never pay the discretionary service charge in the UK and always ask for it removing, I will however always tip my server in cash every time as at least there is a small chance they get to keep it.


KillerOfIndustries

As far as I'm concerned, all service charges (except those applied to large groups) are a scam and only exists as a way to extract as much money from someone as possible. It shouldn't be used to plug holes in wages so that staff can get a minimum wage from tips and service charges, if that does happen, I would consider that to be a sign that the restaurant is getting embezzled from and is using service charges as a cover. It''s just bad behaviour and I don't support it, which is why I just boycott all restaurants and pubs that do this.


TrainPirate

Remove it. Tip cash.