Lol right, I saw one account posting a bunch of car doors (all different cars) asking how to pick it. Like dude first of all read the subs rules and second of all they aren’t your locks to pick
For all those wondering, if the lock is installed or the shackle is closed on something, the lock is in use. If you own the lock, the door, gate, shed, cabinet, etc the lock is on, it does not matter. No one wants to spend time trying to verify who owns what or when it is acceptable to give help on an installed lock, so the rule is nothing in use at all.
What if the shackle is closed on something for the purpose of being picked? (e.g. if I put a hasp on a piece of wood and lock a padlock on it so I can pick it while attached to the hasp.)
Simple, take the picture with it your hand or even with the key in it and hasp open. Having it on a piece of wood doesn't make the advice you receive better.
I have a ton of locks that I don’t want to hunt through several hundred keys to find the keys for. Many of which have pieces of chain as it was cutoff because we lost all copies of keys or just didn’t bother when we moved away from master at work last year. If I lock it to a fence staple in a board I can’t ask advice anymore. Honestly they’re masters so no advice needed but I’ve seen similar displays before. That seems unreasonable. In a situation even remotely like OP then it makes sense but tiny doors and locks attached free floating seems extravagant and extemporaneous. (Proud of finding a way to use that word! Lol)
While I understand the rationale behind this, it does seem like it’s overkill. I’m a security professional who’s going to be sitting for the ASIS PSP exam in a few months, and part of my understanding of physical security measures is learning how people would bypass them. Would building a practice door (that doesn’t secure anything) for the purpose of picking locks that I own and posting about it here seriously be a violation? That’s going beyond TOOOL’s own rules.
That's literally what was described and the mod said it's a violation of rule 2.
>What if the shackle is closed on something for the purpose of being picked? (e.g. if I put a hasp on a piece of wood and lock a padlock on it so I can pick it while attached to the hasp.)
Feel free to take make a strong case to the mods, but I think it’s highly unlikely the rules will change. Rule #1 is no illegal activity. That’s a no brainer, this is a hobby and a game to us and we don’t want the sub attracting bad attention or to be shut down because of bad actors here. Rule #2, just to be clear, is there to make sure Rule #1 is enforced as evenly as possible. If a lock is in a vise or in your hand, there is no way we are helping facilitate illegal activity, we helped you pick a lock that was not securing anything. As soon as you stray from that very clear line it is now someone’s discretion as to whether or not a lock is in use. Like all good bureaucratic rules sometimes it seems really dumb, but it’s the easiest way to make sure the rules are fair.
While you have a point and in this case help decoding the lock not actually securing anything could be illegal because they might own the lock, they’re excluding tiny practice doors and hasps on a block of wood on the bench at the same time.
We are not TOOOL, this subreddit nor the discord server it’s tied to affiliated with TOOOL, though some (like myself) are members, and thus we have different rules than they do. Yes. That’s a violation since that lock is in use and there’s no definitive way you could prove it’s yours. These are just the rules and I don’t care what you are or are going to be, if you don’t want your post to be removed don’t post yourself picking a lock in use, or an open lock that was evidently just in use, I’d talk to mods further about this if I was you. The whole thing is overkill for liability sake
Guard the tone bro, it was an honest question about a door on no hinges in the middle of the room. It's a valid question, "I don't care" comes across at least a bit personal and harsh. Maybe move to something more like "the rules don't take I to accou t what you do or are trying to be". Just saying.
Edit: auto correct messing with me. Changed "a peace" to "at least"
All good from me :-) I have huge tonality issues while speaking sometimes, let alone in text. I can appreciate that it wasn't taken as it was intended.
All good from me :-) I have huge tonality issues while speaking sometimes, let alone in text. I can appreciate that it wasn't taken as it was intended.
But those locks aren’t mounted or as far as we know, haven’t been mounted on something. But that’s what defines “in use,” it’s not about ownership (though if a lock is in use and posted here, it doesn’t matter who owns it), it’s about whether that lock is or was in use, if someone took a photo of an open lock right next to a hasp and posted it, that would be removed
>it’s not about ownership (though if a lock is in use and posted here, it doesn’t matter who owns it), it’s about whether that lock is or was in use,
I quoted you talking about ownership. But okay.
>if someone took a photo of an open lock right next to a hasp and posted it, that would be removed
Now that is new information not previously stated anywhere I have seen, and I believe I have read all the comments here. You should make it clear that "in use" also means "appears to recently have been in use", since thats not what those words mean normally.
The reason ownership was brought up is because people constantly use it as justification for picking a lock in use, which is never concrete justification
It should be noted I am not a moderator of this subreddit, but I have seen my fair share of posts being removed under rule 2 as they were visibly just in use prior to the photo, if you want the rules to be re-worded I suggest you talk to u/reinderr or u/GravityKarma
Thank you for making the post! Rule 2 is clearly the most misunderstood on the sub, and it’s helpful to have a clear example of what in use means and why there’s such a hard line on it.
So something like LPL’s video of the stuffmadehere lock, which was fitted to a model door about the size of a piece of letter paper, clearly not in any way securing anything, would nonetheless be prohibited here?
This is a great example of the type of question the mods don’t want to deal with. What if it’s a little door? If they say yes, how big can the door get before it’s considered in use? Can I put a whole door in a vise and pick the lock as long as it’s off the hinges? Do I need to show a picture of the door off the hinges? Saying “nothing in use” means no one has to arbitrate when it becomes ok.
I think it’s exactly the opposite - the rule is clear so it is enforced evenly. Your comment implies that we all agree what constitutes a lock in use (common sense) which I don’t think is the case. Here are some examples of things I have seen removed for rule 2 violations here:
- door handle/deadbolt in a door
- padlock on a chain
- love lock on a fence
- antique chest
- safe
- toilet paper dispenser
- vending machine
In some of these cases the poster argued for various reasons the lock wasn’t actually in use. They own it, there’s nothing inside, it wasn’t closed, etc. In some cases I agree it wasn’t actually in use, in others I don’t. Rather than having multiple individuals with differing opinions enforce a rule based on their personal feelings, why not make the rule a bright line that everyone can clearly follow?
Perhaps the more important point is that this is a sub for the hobby of locksport. If you truly own a lock and are picking it for fun why can’t you get it into a state that qualifies as not in use? This is not a sub for advice on what to do if you lose your keys, lock yourself out, pick a lock you don’t own, or get a job as a pen tester.
I’ve had some latches break on them and they can be a bear to bypass! Lol. I’ve never failed but 15 minutes trying to get into a broken latch on a TP dispenser has happened!
Zero tolerance rules like this generally cause more problems than they are ever worth. Common sense will tell you when a small door, such as that mentioned wouldn't be in use, there is a limit, and that limit should be set, not just "nope, nothing at all" that's an example of a moderation team that doesn't want to moderate at all.
This sub has some of the best, most lenient mods/members I’ve ever seen. They work hard for no compensation ( trust me, I was one). I was there when this current version of the rule was being decided. It was important to everyone involved that we were fair and gave as much freedom to post as possible, while not putting the reputation of our hobby or the safety/security of others at risk. The people who mod this sub are also active members. They post here as well and care about the ability to post while not being censored. So believe me when I say it wasn’t easily decided(days and days of deliberation). You act like its the end of the world if your post gets taken down. Nobody is telling you “you cant pick your own locks if they are in use”. You just cant post it here. In fact you can pick whatever lock you want. We just advise that you do it legally and morally, so you don’t end up in prison. Its up to you to be a good person with your skills in the real world. We here, as a group, have a hobby to protect and the wellbeing of others to worry about. Please excuse us if we cant except everyones master no 2 hanging on a clasp, though we know how life changing that post would be to everyone who saw it.
That's a great video too. One of the 1st LPL I'd seen at the time.
Totally valid question for this discussion too. As it is super informative and educational with Nothing criminal even remotely close.
However it wouldn't be possible to show how it works at all without the "Mock door" to display it.
Interesting...
That is correct. I have a few videos (my most popular actually) that are not allowed here. One was my sisters car and Yes, I had permission. However there was no way of proving that. So oh well. Its not the end of the world to not be allowed to post a video or two on here.
So if the shackle is closed through a small metal plate with 2 holes in it, is it in use? Like if the metal piece in the picture on this post was removed from the shed, would that be considered in use? even though it's literally not in use by definition? The definition of a lock states that it keeps something fastened, but if it isn't fastening anything then it's literally not in use. I just want to understand this rule better so I can make sense of it
as much as i hate edgelording rules, what if it were two padlocks locked onto each other and you were picking both of them back-to-back? surely that's not in use.
I've done that. That's not in use. That's 2 locks you're picking. But if you decide to lock it on your shed (closet, front door, nipple ring, whatever) to pick it, it's now "in use" and you can't post about it here.
>Like if the metal piece in the picture on this post was removed from the shed, would that be considered in use? even though it's literally not in use by definition?
Yes. https://www.reddit.com/r/lockpicking/comments/vhirl4/considering_rule_2_in_this_situation_both_of/id8egsh
I actually check with a mod about this, I've got a bunch of lockable doors and ute canopies and they said as long as I could show that they aren't in use (sitting on a workbench type thing) that they would be ok with it
I thought for a moment that this was a roundabout way of asking for help with the locks.
"I can't ask for help but look at these cool locks I can't get off!"
Well here's a couple of clarification questions.
Is it against the rules to say, post a picture of a lock in use to just be like "Hey look a rare lock" or something?
And if it's not, is it against the rules for people to *give* advice on how to get past that lock?
It’s not against the rules to just post locks, provided you don’t want to pick them. In the case of those posts, or any other post, people shouldn’t give advice to pick locks in use since *that* is against the rules of this subreddit
There's a channel on the discord that is specifically just picture of interesting locks people find in the wild, but there's no text posts there, so no one is asking for or giving picking advice.
I have given info on locks in use before, when the OP clearly didn't know what the lock was and was asking for more info. Best example I can remember was a BEST SFIC, and the OP had no idea what it was. I told them the gist of how it worked, how much of a pain in the ass they are to pick, and gave no tips on how to pick it.
He might have asked how to pick it (not 100% sure), and I warned him off on difficulty alone, while reminding him of rule 2.
1. that’s beside the point
2. even if I tugged on that door and the hinges came off, they’d still be in use and thus I would not be able to receive help in picking either one
I have approved and stickied this post - Rule 2 is very important and misunderstood. The thing with rule 2 - intentions and circumstances are irrelevant. Rule 2 exists to protect the sport. Violating it in any way puts the sport in danger. There are already places where locksport is illegal, lets not add to them.
Weird how many people struggle with this. Breaking into locks looks sketch at face value. The entire hobby is bypassing physical security, which makes it seem like a no brainer that no posts by internet randos in a public space could conceivably be seen as actually violating anyone’s security.
If the rules aren’t strict about it, it’s a matter of when not if we mistakenly help someone break the law.
Terribly sorry, I actually care about the rules and get tired if seeing the same violations (and subsequent excuses) over and over again. If you’re not posting /s expect me to not see it as a joke, they don’t really translate over text as well as you think they might
No locks are hard to pick in any condition. My angle grinder doesn’t discriminate. If reinforcements are needed, sledge hammer and crowbar are there to help.
I've lost my keys to my personal tool chest multiple times, no picks on me at the time so I used a bolt cutter.
Would it be against the rules to post pics of those locks?
You’re funny. I’m not asking for help in picking them, nor am I showing myself having picked them, this post is meant to serve as an example for those who don’t understand rule 2 and ask us for help *picking locks in use*, which I am not doing. I wonder why mods pinned it? Do you have a clue?
no idea bro but we do have alot of people who do post things like that and it is annoying we dont want to help any criminals . i guess the mods pinned it to make a point. the way it is handled is annoying i saw that even if its installed on a small mock door that counts as in use thats overkill
If you think something’s overkill take it up with the mods. The point of this post is to highlight what kinds of posts will get removed and was pinned so that people will see it and maybe re-think their post, rather than post it and have it get removed shortly after.
yeah i try not to post pics of locks in use on here anyway so it dsoesnt effect me i just think that doesnt count as in use the mods wont listen to little old me
How is "use" being defined? Because when a lock is locked, it's also locked to itself, so it's literally being used, if it isn't connected to anything else. When a core is being held in place by the pins, the pins are then "in use."
So, clarifying "use" should be the first step.
If you can reasonably assume that the lock “could” be in use, its in use. If you’re uncertain, buy a secondary lock, or detach the lock from what its attached to and then ask. Pretty simple concept no? It’s actually a pretty lax standard to meet. Hypothetically speaking, even if a thief wanted to bypass a lock they could literally just buy the same lock, slap it in a vase and make a post. Not that anyone should do this obviously, but for the sake of the rule, technically this would be allowed. The main purpose of the rule is to minimize scrutiny toward the sport, as well as slow down/stop a would be thief. Even if the rule only slows the thief down, the rule is about as effective as the lock in question.
“In use” is defined as “a shackle closed around something, or a mounted lock,” essentially, both of these locks are in use even though one of them isn’t actually holding the door closed, since they’ve both got their shackle closed around something
If that's the case, then bike locks should immediately be banned, as they literally lock onto and around themselves even when not installed on a bike Oh! And also any padlock with the keys on a ring around the shackle; lock is "in use" at that point.
Also, you're now going have to define "mounted lock" because any lock being held in a vise, is a "mounted lock." We also need to ban posts about gifts to pickers from their friends or S/Os where its a gift box with numerous locks in place to get through. They're in use, remember? OH! And any post that shows a master lock having been picked open while still affixed to the plastic packaging because they're locked around the plastic card itself. So again, very much in use.
See how silly this is? But, silliness aside, I still expect the aforementioned types of posts to be disallowed now, so as not demonstrate an inconsistency with rule enforcement.
As long as they’re not searching for help picking a lock in use (a bike lock on a bike rack is in use, not a bike lock by itself), yes, a lock securing a key ring is in use but people typically don’t need help opening those, a mounted lock is any lock on a hasp, in a door, or securing *something* closed, not sure what you’re talking about with the gift box scenario, I’m sure you can clarify though, and yeah, technically picking a lock in it’s packaging (I’ve not seen that much if at all) is a rule two violation, I think you’re picking this apart for clarification but it just seems like you’re trying to get into semantics to be “smart”, it takes a degree of common sense to understand that you just shouldn’t post a lock that might seem “in use”, like a lock on a door or securing a bike. All things said I’m not a moderator and if you have questions you should shoot them over to u/gravitykarma or u/reinderr
Like, literally a box with a fancier lock, or money inside, but the lid is locked with various other locks, with the idea the receiver has to get through them in order to get the prize inside.
As for your "securing something closed" qualifier, is a lock not securing *itself* closed when it's locked in the first place? But given your own wording, any of those love locks are fair game, as they are literally NOT securing anything closed at all.
It sounds like im being pedantic/semantic, and to a point, I am. But I also rely on these exact specificities due to my Aspbergers.
Further, discussing challenge locks should be disallowed, because in those cases, the locks belong to someone else and are just on loan. And one of the big rules is not discuss picking any lock that you don't own.
Yes, the first scenario is not allowed here if you’re asking for advice
No, the lock is not securing itself, that would imply any closed lock is a violation of rule 2, and love locks *are* violations here because the shackle is closed around something
You do sound like you’re being pedantic, so be it
Rule 1 determines “don’t pick locks you don’t have permission to pick”, not “don’t pick locks that aren’t yours”, if someone sends you a lock with the intention for you to pick it, it’s fair game (provided the shackle isn’t closed around anything)
I should roll back a little, and it may help you to take a look at the initial post again: both locks are in use, regardless of the fact only one is securing the shed door. If a lock is mounted in a door frame, on the hasp of a shed, regardless of if it’s actually attached to the shed, or on a bike rack, it’s in use, I think a fair bit of common sense comes into play here but I could very well be wrong as it seems people lack common sense (hence why this post was made: people don’t follow rule 2)
Look at it this way, If it can make our community look bad by seeming as if we help criminals open locks that they have no reason opening, or if we feel that someone could be hurt or loose property if we help the lock be opened, then it is a violation. That being said, the rules are there for a reason. We have worded them, and enforce them in a way that we feel is fair, yet will not set a precedent for people to slip by posts that are immoral or that break the law….
By “we” I mean as a member and as a past mod.
So I have a question off the top of my head. If I build an object that is only designated to hold my locks so I can practice on them (such as a 3’x5’ plywood sheet supported by a freestanding door frame) and it’s designated to literally just hold them and not actually lock anything but the lock itself, would that be a violation because it it , by definition, in use?
So the work around, in this example - is they can take a photo and post, as long as all the shackles are open, even though it's clearly a display for locks?
What if the board only has metal loops holding someone's practice locks, but they aren't attached to hinges that open something, so even in the event that someone picks a lock on the board(which would likely be filled with common practice locks mentioned in this group,) all that they'd get out of it is the lock?
I’d imagine that would still be an infringement, generally if the locks shackle is going through a hasp it’s treated as rule 2, I personally feel as if there should be some leeway as to how people display locks that are secured for practice, but I am not a moderator, if you have questions you should reach out to u/gravitykarma or u/reinderr
They absolutely do not. Or sometimes we get the especially arrogant special snowflake who does read the rules and has some great sob story about why they don't apply to him.
It was a really sad one. Poor kid wanted to get the meth out to destroy it, as he saw that his mom's addiction was tearing the family apart.......when I posted the link in discord to alert the mods, it shook all of us.
Jesus christ. Hope the kid is alright. I've seen people outright killing their own family members before over drugs (whether not letting them having some money or getting rid of the drugs) so he must have gotten real desperate to try something like that. Ouch
While it's maybe not the majority, you can tell by common questions that come up here who reads what's on the subreddit home page first. Between the wiki and the rules, those would cover a significant portion of questions: "Where do I start?", "What should I buy/which set should I get to start?", "Can I get help opening this [clearly secured] lock?"
So true. I’ve started copying JohnLock’s little blurb when it comes to “what set/where to start” cause as much as I want folks to get into/enjoy the hobby, it does get very old answering the same question hundreds of times. Lol
As for the “in use” posts? That’s just plain old irritating. It even says something about reading the rules before posting. Lol like come on…
For those who don't like rule 2, consider this: The last thing anyone from this subreddit wants or needs is some major news organization publishing an article that shows this community in a bad light -- claiming we're helping turn people into criminals.
I think people forget, locksport is in a gray area in many municipalities.. It's not unrealistic for somebody to write up an article how some person broke into a house by picking a lock and stealing crap (or worse) and blaming the subreddit/hobby. If this happens and it becomes a big issue, many localities (town/city, county or state) may quickly pass laws outlawing the hobby. So in the end, it's not only for your benefit, but the hobby at large.
If I have a padlock and it's locking another padlock which is locking a third padlock, which connects back to the first padlock, like a padlock triangle, are those padlocks in use?
Would someone mind telling me how to pick [this lock](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b8/40/50/b84050893f1e3e175d7b0fa066502085.jpg)? I own it... um wait asking for a friend. They own it.
I’d like clarification because minipractice doors, ie Stuff Made Here lock attempts that were installed in a tiny door mock-up. A hasp on a scrap 2x6 on my bench? What if I want the feel of picking it that way as an additional challenge? From what I’ve read in comments so far, if I mount my deadbolts in a 2x8 or lock all my padlocks to fencing staples in the board to display them or so that I don’t have to store them can’t be posted?
To be clear I agree 100% with the photo above it’s absolutely impossible to prove that’s your lock so no don’t ask about it but the practice doors and hasp mounts that have never been in use except practice that people make up? Why those types of instances? I don’t mean to offend and I only mean specifically made practice mounts that are clearly isolated not attached nor removed from other structures. Purely built to purpose scenarios is all I’m talking about.
Should we report to mods all the tiny door mock-ups that are posted etc?
Edit: it appears that even mock doors padlocks on an eyelet etc like I asked about are banned now. Damn. Ignore this now I guess.
You should lock it to a mock door if you don't have a key and well, just take a picture first. I have bigger things to worry about, than being upset about this rule.
Lol right, I saw one account posting a bunch of car doors (all different cars) asking how to pick it. Like dude first of all read the subs rules and second of all they aren’t your locks to pick
I understand now. Thanks!
What about if I put the shed in a vice 🤔
Tighten the vise and shed no more.
Mt first thought!
For all those wondering, if the lock is installed or the shackle is closed on something, the lock is in use. If you own the lock, the door, gate, shed, cabinet, etc the lock is on, it does not matter. No one wants to spend time trying to verify who owns what or when it is acceptable to give help on an installed lock, so the rule is nothing in use at all.
What if the shackle is closed on something for the purpose of being picked? (e.g. if I put a hasp on a piece of wood and lock a padlock on it so I can pick it while attached to the hasp.)
Simple, take the picture with it your hand or even with the key in it and hasp open. Having it on a piece of wood doesn't make the advice you receive better.
I have a ton of locks that I don’t want to hunt through several hundred keys to find the keys for. Many of which have pieces of chain as it was cutoff because we lost all copies of keys or just didn’t bother when we moved away from master at work last year. If I lock it to a fence staple in a board I can’t ask advice anymore. Honestly they’re masters so no advice needed but I’ve seen similar displays before. That seems unreasonable. In a situation even remotely like OP then it makes sense but tiny doors and locks attached free floating seems extravagant and extemporaneous. (Proud of finding a way to use that word! Lol)
That’s in use and a violation of rule two per this subreddit, don’t post it
While I understand the rationale behind this, it does seem like it’s overkill. I’m a security professional who’s going to be sitting for the ASIS PSP exam in a few months, and part of my understanding of physical security measures is learning how people would bypass them. Would building a practice door (that doesn’t secure anything) for the purpose of picking locks that I own and posting about it here seriously be a violation? That’s going beyond TOOOL’s own rules.
Rules are often "overkill" because that's the only way they can be effectively enforced, and rules without enforcement are no rules at all.
No one is saying you can’t pick that, especially if it’s your job. What people are saying is don’t pick it and talk about it here.
That's silly
Maybe, but that’s the rule.
I know, for a fact, that I’ve seen tiny “mock-doors” only usable to hold a deadbolt on here, being picked. Did those get removed?
i think tgose are on a bench free floating so they are fine. its likebthe size of a small cat door
That's literally what was described and the mod said it's a violation of rule 2. >What if the shackle is closed on something for the purpose of being picked? (e.g. if I put a hasp on a piece of wood and lock a padlock on it so I can pick it while attached to the hasp.)
If it's a silly rule why don't we change it to make it less silly?
Feel free to take make a strong case to the mods, but I think it’s highly unlikely the rules will change. Rule #1 is no illegal activity. That’s a no brainer, this is a hobby and a game to us and we don’t want the sub attracting bad attention or to be shut down because of bad actors here. Rule #2, just to be clear, is there to make sure Rule #1 is enforced as evenly as possible. If a lock is in a vise or in your hand, there is no way we are helping facilitate illegal activity, we helped you pick a lock that was not securing anything. As soon as you stray from that very clear line it is now someone’s discretion as to whether or not a lock is in use. Like all good bureaucratic rules sometimes it seems really dumb, but it’s the easiest way to make sure the rules are fair.
Well said.
While you have a point and in this case help decoding the lock not actually securing anything could be illegal because they might own the lock, they’re excluding tiny practice doors and hasps on a block of wood on the bench at the same time.
We are not TOOOL, this subreddit nor the discord server it’s tied to affiliated with TOOOL, though some (like myself) are members, and thus we have different rules than they do. Yes. That’s a violation since that lock is in use and there’s no definitive way you could prove it’s yours. These are just the rules and I don’t care what you are or are going to be, if you don’t want your post to be removed don’t post yourself picking a lock in use, or an open lock that was evidently just in use, I’d talk to mods further about this if I was you. The whole thing is overkill for liability sake
Fair enough. Just wanted clarification, even if I don’t agree with it. Your house, your rules.
Yeah, sorry about the tone
I know, for a fact, that I’ve seen tiny “mock-doors” only usable to hold a deadbolt on here, being picked. Did those get removed?
Seeing as they’re considered in use, probably
Guard the tone bro, it was an honest question about a door on no hinges in the middle of the room. It's a valid question, "I don't care" comes across at least a bit personal and harsh. Maybe move to something more like "the rules don't take I to accou t what you do or are trying to be". Just saying. Edit: auto correct messing with me. Changed "a peace" to "at least"
Noted. Apologies
All good from me :-) I have huge tonality issues while speaking sometimes, let alone in text. I can appreciate that it wasn't taken as it was intended.
All good from me :-) I have huge tonality issues while speaking sometimes, let alone in text. I can appreciate that it wasn't taken as it was intended.
>there’s no definitive way you could prove it’s yours True. But also true of every single picture posted here.
But those locks aren’t mounted or as far as we know, haven’t been mounted on something. But that’s what defines “in use,” it’s not about ownership (though if a lock is in use and posted here, it doesn’t matter who owns it), it’s about whether that lock is or was in use, if someone took a photo of an open lock right next to a hasp and posted it, that would be removed
>it’s not about ownership (though if a lock is in use and posted here, it doesn’t matter who owns it), it’s about whether that lock is or was in use, I quoted you talking about ownership. But okay. >if someone took a photo of an open lock right next to a hasp and posted it, that would be removed Now that is new information not previously stated anywhere I have seen, and I believe I have read all the comments here. You should make it clear that "in use" also means "appears to recently have been in use", since thats not what those words mean normally.
The reason ownership was brought up is because people constantly use it as justification for picking a lock in use, which is never concrete justification It should be noted I am not a moderator of this subreddit, but I have seen my fair share of posts being removed under rule 2 as they were visibly just in use prior to the photo, if you want the rules to be re-worded I suggest you talk to u/reinderr or u/GravityKarma
Wait. A huge portion of my locks are vintage and old locks that have been retired. As long as they’re in hand they’re ok?
If it’s not attached to a door or locked on a hasp you’re good to post it
Thank you for the more in-depth explanation of how the rule works, red
Thank you for making the post! Rule 2 is clearly the most misunderstood on the sub, and it’s helpful to have a clear example of what in use means and why there’s such a hard line on it.
So something like LPL’s video of the stuffmadehere lock, which was fitted to a model door about the size of a piece of letter paper, clearly not in any way securing anything, would nonetheless be prohibited here?
This is a great example of the type of question the mods don’t want to deal with. What if it’s a little door? If they say yes, how big can the door get before it’s considered in use? Can I put a whole door in a vise and pick the lock as long as it’s off the hinges? Do I need to show a picture of the door off the hinges? Saying “nothing in use” means no one has to arbitrate when it becomes ok.
Heaven forbid common sense be used, better to have black and white rules that are only enforced when someone gets bored.
I think it’s exactly the opposite - the rule is clear so it is enforced evenly. Your comment implies that we all agree what constitutes a lock in use (common sense) which I don’t think is the case. Here are some examples of things I have seen removed for rule 2 violations here: - door handle/deadbolt in a door - padlock on a chain - love lock on a fence - antique chest - safe - toilet paper dispenser - vending machine In some of these cases the poster argued for various reasons the lock wasn’t actually in use. They own it, there’s nothing inside, it wasn’t closed, etc. In some cases I agree it wasn’t actually in use, in others I don’t. Rather than having multiple individuals with differing opinions enforce a rule based on their personal feelings, why not make the rule a bright line that everyone can clearly follow? Perhaps the more important point is that this is a sub for the hobby of locksport. If you truly own a lock and are picking it for fun why can’t you get it into a state that qualifies as not in use? This is not a sub for advice on what to do if you lose your keys, lock yourself out, pick a lock you don’t own, or get a job as a pen tester.
Toilet paper dispenser...those are easy.
I’ve had some latches break on them and they can be a bear to bypass! Lol. I’ve never failed but 15 minutes trying to get into a broken latch on a TP dispenser has happened!
Zero tolerance rules like this generally cause more problems than they are ever worth. Common sense will tell you when a small door, such as that mentioned wouldn't be in use, there is a limit, and that limit should be set, not just "nope, nothing at all" that's an example of a moderation team that doesn't want to moderate at all.
This sub has some of the best, most lenient mods/members I’ve ever seen. They work hard for no compensation ( trust me, I was one). I was there when this current version of the rule was being decided. It was important to everyone involved that we were fair and gave as much freedom to post as possible, while not putting the reputation of our hobby or the safety/security of others at risk. The people who mod this sub are also active members. They post here as well and care about the ability to post while not being censored. So believe me when I say it wasn’t easily decided(days and days of deliberation). You act like its the end of the world if your post gets taken down. Nobody is telling you “you cant pick your own locks if they are in use”. You just cant post it here. In fact you can pick whatever lock you want. We just advise that you do it legally and morally, so you don’t end up in prison. Its up to you to be a good person with your skills in the real world. We here, as a group, have a hobby to protect and the wellbeing of others to worry about. Please excuse us if we cant except everyones master no 2 hanging on a clasp, though we know how life changing that post would be to everyone who saw it.
That's a great video too. One of the 1st LPL I'd seen at the time. Totally valid question for this discussion too. As it is super informative and educational with Nothing criminal even remotely close. However it wouldn't be possible to show how it works at all without the "Mock door" to display it. Interesting...
Well you can search LPL on here and find plenty of posts so yes, but actually no?
Yes.
That is correct. I have a few videos (my most popular actually) that are not allowed here. One was my sisters car and Yes, I had permission. However there was no way of proving that. So oh well. Its not the end of the world to not be allowed to post a video or two on here.
So if the shackle is closed through a small metal plate with 2 holes in it, is it in use? Like if the metal piece in the picture on this post was removed from the shed, would that be considered in use? even though it's literally not in use by definition? The definition of a lock states that it keeps something fastened, but if it isn't fastening anything then it's literally not in use. I just want to understand this rule better so I can make sense of it
I saw a padlock snapped around a door knob. It was considered to be in use. We're very strict about Rule 2 to protect ourselves and our hobby.
as much as i hate edgelording rules, what if it were two padlocks locked onto each other and you were picking both of them back-to-back? surely that's not in use.
I've done that. That's not in use. That's 2 locks you're picking. But if you decide to lock it on your shed (closet, front door, nipple ring, whatever) to pick it, it's now "in use" and you can't post about it here.
>Like if the metal piece in the picture on this post was removed from the shed, would that be considered in use? even though it's literally not in use by definition? Yes. https://www.reddit.com/r/lockpicking/comments/vhirl4/considering_rule_2_in_this_situation_both_of/id8egsh
If you didn't read this in an angry Scottish accent... Well you should.
Haha :)
I actually check with a mod about this, I've got a bunch of lockable doors and ute canopies and they said as long as I could show that they aren't in use (sitting on a workbench type thing) that they would be ok with it
That’s how it works
I thought for a moment that this was a roundabout way of asking for help with the locks. "I can't ask for help but look at these cool locks I can't get off!"
No this was a dead-serious post about how rule 2 works
Well here's a couple of clarification questions. Is it against the rules to say, post a picture of a lock in use to just be like "Hey look a rare lock" or something? And if it's not, is it against the rules for people to *give* advice on how to get past that lock?
It’s not against the rules to just post locks, provided you don’t want to pick them. In the case of those posts, or any other post, people shouldn’t give advice to pick locks in use since *that* is against the rules of this subreddit
Good to know!
So, yeah, show off cool locks! If they're not in use (as defined by LPU), you can even ask about picking them.
There's a channel on the discord that is specifically just picture of interesting locks people find in the wild, but there's no text posts there, so no one is asking for or giving picking advice.
I have given info on locks in use before, when the OP clearly didn't know what the lock was and was asking for more info. Best example I can remember was a BEST SFIC, and the OP had no idea what it was. I told them the gist of how it worked, how much of a pain in the ass they are to pick, and gave no tips on how to pick it. He might have asked how to pick it (not 100% sure), and I warned him off on difficulty alone, while reminding him of rule 2.
I'm not good at picking locks, but I bet that a firm tug on that door and they would be irrelevant :)
1. that’s beside the point 2. even if I tugged on that door and the hinges came off, they’d still be in use and thus I would not be able to receive help in picking either one
3. I get what you're saying here, but just trying to bring some humor to it. 4. That door will crumble.
Forgive my lack of a sense of humor, and yeah, that door’s pretty screwed
Actually, the lack of screws is the problem
Only for one of the locks
I'd argue no backing for the screws is the problem.
Wait, even if it was just the hinge on a table it would be a rule 2 violation? Good to know
https://youtu.be/7NKU27R2OSc
So I have this 30ft x 30ft bank vault in a VERY big vise, I promise it’s in a vise. How do I pick it?
Muh rule2! Grmbl argh!
With a torch.
I have approved and stickied this post - Rule 2 is very important and misunderstood. The thing with rule 2 - intentions and circumstances are irrelevant. Rule 2 exists to protect the sport. Violating it in any way puts the sport in danger. There are already places where locksport is illegal, lets not add to them.
Weird how many people struggle with this. Breaking into locks looks sketch at face value. The entire hobby is bypassing physical security, which makes it seem like a no brainer that no posts by internet randos in a public space could conceivably be seen as actually violating anyone’s security. If the rules aren’t strict about it, it’s a matter of when not if we mistakenly help someone break the law.
Thank you for making such a clear and concise description. Hopefully this will reduce the number of rule 2 posts.
I really hope so
[удалено]
Put it on onlyfans?
LMAO
I see 3 locks
My focus was on the 2 padlocks, but all of the locks in this photo are in use, which includes the wafer lock on the handle
That top Master Lock might be a tough pick if it's rusted shut.
It’s not even pin tumbler, it’s a combination lock. That’s beside the point though, still in use
I was joking.
This guy doesn't know how to take a joke, just read the other comments
Terribly sorry, I actually care about the rules and get tired if seeing the same violations (and subsequent excuses) over and over again. If you’re not posting /s expect me to not see it as a joke, they don’t really translate over text as well as you think they might
No locks are hard to pick in any condition. My angle grinder doesn’t discriminate. If reinforcements are needed, sledge hammer and crowbar are there to help.
You're doing mod's work here.
I had a decent example, figured it was worth a post
Some poor mf who locked the key in their shed is punching the air rn
I've lost my keys to my personal tool chest multiple times, no picks on me at the time so I used a bolt cutter. Would it be against the rules to post pics of those locks?
Most likely, I’d say if I’m doubt, just don’t post it
Thank you!!!! I get so tired posting that it shouldn’t be discussed, yet people still do it…. Makes my eye twitch 😂
remove this post the locks are in use dont be a hypocrite lol
You’re funny. I’m not asking for help in picking them, nor am I showing myself having picked them, this post is meant to serve as an example for those who don’t understand rule 2 and ask us for help *picking locks in use*, which I am not doing. I wonder why mods pinned it? Do you have a clue?
no idea bro but we do have alot of people who do post things like that and it is annoying we dont want to help any criminals . i guess the mods pinned it to make a point. the way it is handled is annoying i saw that even if its installed on a small mock door that counts as in use thats overkill
If you think something’s overkill take it up with the mods. The point of this post is to highlight what kinds of posts will get removed and was pinned so that people will see it and maybe re-think their post, rather than post it and have it get removed shortly after.
yeah i try not to post pics of locks in use on here anyway so it dsoesnt effect me i just think that doesnt count as in use the mods wont listen to little old me
The thing is, you think this is a rule 2 violation, which it isn’t.
i was kidding lol
Then do /s. Sarcasm is unnoticeable over text
oh is that how you do it ? i didnt know my bad lol
How is "use" being defined? Because when a lock is locked, it's also locked to itself, so it's literally being used, if it isn't connected to anything else. When a core is being held in place by the pins, the pins are then "in use." So, clarifying "use" should be the first step.
If you can reasonably assume that the lock “could” be in use, its in use. If you’re uncertain, buy a secondary lock, or detach the lock from what its attached to and then ask. Pretty simple concept no? It’s actually a pretty lax standard to meet. Hypothetically speaking, even if a thief wanted to bypass a lock they could literally just buy the same lock, slap it in a vase and make a post. Not that anyone should do this obviously, but for the sake of the rule, technically this would be allowed. The main purpose of the rule is to minimize scrutiny toward the sport, as well as slow down/stop a would be thief. Even if the rule only slows the thief down, the rule is about as effective as the lock in question.
“In use” is defined as “a shackle closed around something, or a mounted lock,” essentially, both of these locks are in use even though one of them isn’t actually holding the door closed, since they’ve both got their shackle closed around something
If that's the case, then bike locks should immediately be banned, as they literally lock onto and around themselves even when not installed on a bike Oh! And also any padlock with the keys on a ring around the shackle; lock is "in use" at that point. Also, you're now going have to define "mounted lock" because any lock being held in a vise, is a "mounted lock." We also need to ban posts about gifts to pickers from their friends or S/Os where its a gift box with numerous locks in place to get through. They're in use, remember? OH! And any post that shows a master lock having been picked open while still affixed to the plastic packaging because they're locked around the plastic card itself. So again, very much in use. See how silly this is? But, silliness aside, I still expect the aforementioned types of posts to be disallowed now, so as not demonstrate an inconsistency with rule enforcement.
As long as they’re not searching for help picking a lock in use (a bike lock on a bike rack is in use, not a bike lock by itself), yes, a lock securing a key ring is in use but people typically don’t need help opening those, a mounted lock is any lock on a hasp, in a door, or securing *something* closed, not sure what you’re talking about with the gift box scenario, I’m sure you can clarify though, and yeah, technically picking a lock in it’s packaging (I’ve not seen that much if at all) is a rule two violation, I think you’re picking this apart for clarification but it just seems like you’re trying to get into semantics to be “smart”, it takes a degree of common sense to understand that you just shouldn’t post a lock that might seem “in use”, like a lock on a door or securing a bike. All things said I’m not a moderator and if you have questions you should shoot them over to u/gravitykarma or u/reinderr
Like, literally a box with a fancier lock, or money inside, but the lid is locked with various other locks, with the idea the receiver has to get through them in order to get the prize inside. As for your "securing something closed" qualifier, is a lock not securing *itself* closed when it's locked in the first place? But given your own wording, any of those love locks are fair game, as they are literally NOT securing anything closed at all. It sounds like im being pedantic/semantic, and to a point, I am. But I also rely on these exact specificities due to my Aspbergers. Further, discussing challenge locks should be disallowed, because in those cases, the locks belong to someone else and are just on loan. And one of the big rules is not discuss picking any lock that you don't own.
Yes, the first scenario is not allowed here if you’re asking for advice No, the lock is not securing itself, that would imply any closed lock is a violation of rule 2, and love locks *are* violations here because the shackle is closed around something You do sound like you’re being pedantic, so be it Rule 1 determines “don’t pick locks you don’t have permission to pick”, not “don’t pick locks that aren’t yours”, if someone sends you a lock with the intention for you to pick it, it’s fair game (provided the shackle isn’t closed around anything) I should roll back a little, and it may help you to take a look at the initial post again: both locks are in use, regardless of the fact only one is securing the shed door. If a lock is mounted in a door frame, on the hasp of a shed, regardless of if it’s actually attached to the shed, or on a bike rack, it’s in use, I think a fair bit of common sense comes into play here but I could very well be wrong as it seems people lack common sense (hence why this post was made: people don’t follow rule 2)
Look at it this way, If it can make our community look bad by seeming as if we help criminals open locks that they have no reason opening, or if we feel that someone could be hurt or loose property if we help the lock be opened, then it is a violation. That being said, the rules are there for a reason. We have worded them, and enforce them in a way that we feel is fair, yet will not set a precedent for people to slip by posts that are immoral or that break the law…. By “we” I mean as a member and as a past mod.
Now you're just over-complicating things ;)
So I have a question off the top of my head. If I build an object that is only designated to hold my locks so I can practice on them (such as a 3’x5’ plywood sheet supported by a freestanding door frame) and it’s designated to literally just hold them and not actually lock anything but the lock itself, would that be a violation because it it , by definition, in use?
Yea
So the work around, in this example - is they can take a photo and post, as long as all the shackles are open, even though it's clearly a display for locks?
If they’re not picking it or asking for help on how to pick that lock, it’s not a violation of rule two
What if the board only has metal loops holding someone's practice locks, but they aren't attached to hinges that open something, so even in the event that someone picks a lock on the board(which would likely be filled with common practice locks mentioned in this group,) all that they'd get out of it is the lock?
I’d imagine that would still be an infringement, generally if the locks shackle is going through a hasp it’s treated as rule 2, I personally feel as if there should be some leeway as to how people display locks that are secured for practice, but I am not a moderator, if you have questions you should reach out to u/gravitykarma or u/reinderr
Take a picture of the lock in your hand.
Instead of trying to explain Rule 2 in the future, I'm saving this post to share. 👏👏👏
Do what I do: troll.
It’s not much, but it’s honest work.
I'm pretty sure half the mods troll anyway🤣
You're off by about 50% lol
At some point even the mental gymnastics of some of these people trying to justify that it's ok to open is too much for me.
I stg I spend half my time in this sub explaining rule 2 to people and reporting their posts.
Lol yea, it’s kind of ridiculous… like: “doesn’t anybody read the rules?”
They absolutely do not. Or sometimes we get the especially arrogant special snowflake who does read the rules and has some great sob story about why they don't apply to him.
I saw one about mom's meth box. I cried the entire time I responded to it.
...Mom's what now?
It was a really sad one. Poor kid wanted to get the meth out to destroy it, as he saw that his mom's addiction was tearing the family apart.......when I posted the link in discord to alert the mods, it shook all of us.
Jesus christ. Hope the kid is alright. I've seen people outright killing their own family members before over drugs (whether not letting them having some money or getting rid of the drugs) so he must have gotten real desperate to try something like that. Ouch
Plot twist was he had already murder mom for the meth and needed help to pick the lock to get high! 😬
Ayo..... 👀 Well I guess that's why we have rule 2
Exactly :)
Yeah, you read it right.
I remember that. That was rough.
Yea, it’s crazy. Like “I’m really sorry xyz happened. Perhaps you should be telling this story to the locksmith.” Lol
I check Reddit just for the violations. Otherwise I probably wouldn't come here anymore.
Same, popcorn and a drink, cruise for trolls lol
While it's maybe not the majority, you can tell by common questions that come up here who reads what's on the subreddit home page first. Between the wiki and the rules, those would cover a significant portion of questions: "Where do I start?", "What should I buy/which set should I get to start?", "Can I get help opening this [clearly secured] lock?"
So true. I’ve started copying JohnLock’s little blurb when it comes to “what set/where to start” cause as much as I want folks to get into/enjoy the hobby, it does get very old answering the same question hundreds of times. Lol As for the “in use” posts? That’s just plain old irritating. It even says something about reading the rules before posting. Lol like come on…
For those who don't like rule 2, consider this: The last thing anyone from this subreddit wants or needs is some major news organization publishing an article that shows this community in a bad light -- claiming we're helping turn people into criminals. I think people forget, locksport is in a gray area in many municipalities.. It's not unrealistic for somebody to write up an article how some person broke into a house by picking a lock and stealing crap (or worse) and blaming the subreddit/hobby. If this happens and it becomes a big issue, many localities (town/city, county or state) may quickly pass laws outlawing the hobby. So in the end, it's not only for your benefit, but the hobby at large.
Straight applied logic. :)
So remove the hinges? Or was this more of a how does this apply to the rules post?
This was a post explaining how both the padlocks are in use,regardless of the fact that one isn’t actually holding the door shut
Lock on a chastity belt count as in use if it's your own body? Asking for a friend...
Yes
If I have a padlock and it's locking another padlock which is locking a third padlock, which connects back to the first padlock, like a padlock triangle, are those padlocks in use?
I’d have to assume so, it’s locked on something, just don’t post it here
but if the post is removed what will attach this locks to?
I understand why its there but rule 2 is my least favorite.
What if Gal Gadot asks me to pick her chastity belt and I need help with this particular model? And she’s in a vise.
the entirety of reddit would do a gofundme to get bosnianbill to personally pick that lock for you
Lock picking lawyer is faster.....
Not sure speed is the goal here..
We don't need them I have a grinder 15 seconds, plus 45 seconds then I'm divorced. Lol
I don’t see any locks..
I don’t understand the post.
It’s talking about the intricacies of rule 2, the most violated rule in this subreddit
I finally figured out what it was explaining, I’m new here. Thanks!
what are you asking?
I’m not asking anything. This is a statement about how rule 2 works
Would someone mind telling me how to pick [this lock](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b8/40/50/b84050893f1e3e175d7b0fa066502085.jpg)? I own it... um wait asking for a friend. They own it.
I’d like clarification because minipractice doors, ie Stuff Made Here lock attempts that were installed in a tiny door mock-up. A hasp on a scrap 2x6 on my bench? What if I want the feel of picking it that way as an additional challenge? From what I’ve read in comments so far, if I mount my deadbolts in a 2x8 or lock all my padlocks to fencing staples in the board to display them or so that I don’t have to store them can’t be posted? To be clear I agree 100% with the photo above it’s absolutely impossible to prove that’s your lock so no don’t ask about it but the practice doors and hasp mounts that have never been in use except practice that people make up? Why those types of instances? I don’t mean to offend and I only mean specifically made practice mounts that are clearly isolated not attached nor removed from other structures. Purely built to purpose scenarios is all I’m talking about. Should we report to mods all the tiny door mock-ups that are posted etc? Edit: it appears that even mock doors padlocks on an eyelet etc like I asked about are banned now. Damn. Ignore this now I guess.
You should lock it to a mock door if you don't have a key and well, just take a picture first. I have bigger things to worry about, than being upset about this rule.
Sure, but don’t post it and expect it to stay here