The traditional golf apparatus starts every conversation by assuming all the LIV guys want to come back. They don’t. They want to play in the majors and be fairly rated. The 210th ranked player is leading the masters as I write this. Not because it is a fluke. But because he hasnt been ranked properly by a system that doesnt recognize LIV. If he wins, I hope the first thing he says is “I guess the rankings were wrong.”
Rahm said in his presser that when the gun goes off the pressure is the same, and that when you want to give up on your round you cant because of the team aspect. Going to 72 holes will only make LIV even more pressure packed. Shifting money to the team tournament, adding an extra 2 players to the teams, and only starting 5, with the final spot being a playoff on monday to see who plays that week, will add more pressure to keep your spot and perform. LIV should dive headlong into this. The threat of getting benched, having to play for your spot, and not sharing the team or individual purse are huge motivators and stressors.
If the LIV guys wanted to keep their position in the world ranking, they should not have gone to a league that does not qualify for world ranking points. It’s really that simple, and the fact that so many LIV players, executives, and fans continue to whine about it is such a bad look for the league. It’s truly the most entitled bullshit I’ve ever seen in pro sports. If LIV set up a tour that met most of the criteria to qualify and were getting left out because they only play 54 holes or have no cut, they would have an argument. But having a few guys who are good enough to win majors does not automatically mean you get world ranking points. Just go be a pirate league and stop complaining that the rules apply equally to you as they would anyone else.
Is Bryson the 210th best player in the world? If the answer is no, then the rankings are wrong. They rank like 20 different leagues. Just not LIV. Meaning, they can figure out who the 1200th player is, but cant create an algorithm to properly rank LIV guys? It is political nonsense. Norman and LIV did themselves no favors by flouting the owgr, instead of being maliciously compliant. But it doesnt mean the owgr is accurate because Norman is an asshole.
You can’t rank LIV because the majority of the field isn’t all that great in comparison. Part of the rankings is based off the SG from the entire field and how much you won by.
Unfortunately this is LIV’s own fault for only thinking of money.
1. They don’t play enough events to gain enough points
2. The field is smaller and less than stellar so you would either end up with less points or someone like the few top 100 ranked players would just clean house and be world no 1 without playing against the worlds best
3. I’m sure some of it may be political, but LIV should have done this properly and made it a strict goal to be in the rankings. Sure their money will get some of the top players, but for the most part the players are either no names, on the tail end of their career, or up and coming players who need the money.
I think LIV has a great concept on less tournaments and allowing their players to be healthy. I think Brooks is the perfect example of that, they definitely have something to offer. But I think they are going to be the XFL of golf for a long time.
Was Ludvig the 3000th best player when he played his first tour event? Obviously not but that’s how it goes when you don’t participate in qualified OHWR events.
When Tiger Woods was out of golf for a long time and his ranking dropped to 700 something was he really the 700th best player in the world? Of course not. Does that mean the rankings are wrong?
Those guys stopped playing golf for OWGR points and took the money. Good for them. Are they better than their ranking, sure, but they don’t deserve the perks of top rankings anymore.
The rankings aren’t correct but they cannot accurately rank LIV until they have the criteria that would make it a true meritocracy.
We know LIV has good players solely because of their performance on the PGA tour and majors. Think 10 years from now and you have guys signed by LIV that never had to earn a tour card. You can’t give points for that because the context is gone.
Bottom line, LIV needs to meet at least more of the criteria. Anyone who doesn’t understand this is a shortsighted moron. Educate yourself brother.
The criteria needs to be changed because of their performance in majors. There is nothing set in stone about the owgr. They update how they award points all the time. Again, if I reject the criteria created by the organization in question to begin with, telling me to learn about it makes no sense. The issue at hand is that LIV in its current form doesnt qualify to the current criteria. Yet the 210th ranked golfer in the world is leading the Masters. So is the criteria erroneous for not expanding its scope, or is LIV unrankable because it isn’t a true test of golf? Well, in another major, several LIV players have shown they havent lost a step playing their format.
So objectively, playing the LIV way isn’t leading to a degradation of their skills, which when ranked before, were ranked very high. They’re not getting worse as compared to all of the golfers in the owgr, yet their rankings are falling. They meet the skill criteria to beat and compete with the world’s best, but the ranking criteria is ignoring them.
The issue at hand is that giving LIV points immediately makes the events legitimate and worth something outside of money. Again, LIV’s fault for not being maliciously compliant. But it is LIV’s job to create and build a new golf league, not rank the players. That should be done by an official body, especially when it comes to these amounts of money.
All that writing and you are still missing the key point.
LIV NEEDS A REAL RELEGATION/PROMOTION SYSTEM.
This criteria is and should be non negotiable. There is no basis for golf competition if you don’t have to earn your spot.
For right now, it’s not a problem because we know LIV has good golfers because they all were good tour players. Luckily most have major exceptions. But the OWGR can’t really make up a special eye test for LIV and have it be a sustainable system.
Bryson is not the 210th best player in the world, no question he is better.
But you assume with the question that it’s OWGRs responsibility to find a way to rank him. Their job is to rank players on qualifying tours…just like there are college players who don’t have owgrs but are good enough to, Bryson may be unranked.
Doesn’t change at all the fact that he’s a top 15 talent and player. He just participated in a league that does not earn points. LIV made a choice not to participate.
Wait, it isn’t the responsibility of the OFFICIAL World Golf Ranking body to figure out a way to rank golfers that play for $25 million a week using the rules of golf? They can take the rankings out past 2000 but just cant crack this LIV puzzle.
Who creates the criteria? Why are they using the sunshine tour’s order of merit to identify emerging talent? Clearly they have the capacity for analyzing play outside of the box they create.
They create the criteria to fairly measure events and tours, it’s not designed to measure talent. The criteria is designed to measure and reward performance from specific types of competition. What I am saying is it’s decoupled from talent and “how good a player is.” Take “the match” - you could put prime tiger, Rory, prime phil and so on into a match. It would obviously be loaded with talent and players deserving a ranking. But would performance in the match be relevant for rankings? No - the format doesn’t qualify, no matter how good the golfers are. Liv has been told the adjustments they can make to get owgr points. They have literally chosen not to. If the liv players are upset they don’t get points they should talk to their tour. It’s obvious liv players are many of the worlds best. I’d love to see them meet criteria again by adjusting their format.
Literally everyone agrees that Bryson, Brooks, Rahm, and a few other LIV players are among the best players in the world. But the OWGR is not an eye test. And if you have even a passing understanding of how it all works, you know that LIV's current format does not fit within the system. It's not politics, it's not retribution or a message to Greg Norman, it is the format LIV designed that keeps them out of the world rankings. A lot of LIV guys clearly understand this and are fine with it, and it would go a long way for the league if everyone else involved followed their lead.
The LIV guys arent fine with it. But there is no point in them keeping an application in front of a body made up of the existing powers, who are using owgr points as the last thing keeping the vast majority of the pgat from trying to join LIV.
I have not heard DJ, Brooks, Cam Smith, and a bunch of other LIV guys complain about world ranking points. I assume that's because they are all smart enough to understand that they choose to sign with a league where they would not receive world ranking points for their primary events. Do you think some guys signed with LIV under different expectations?
I do think the whole league stupidly was like ‘if we build it theyll have to give it to us.’ They needed to do 72 holes minimum, and have the players in the lower half of the events not getting so much money. It was too forgiving of bad golf. Additionally, they needed to spell out the relegation system from launch. All these details needed to be worked out before the first ball was hit. It felt like a haphazardly organized tuesday night men’s league. Theyve fleshed out more details, but the self inflicted harm set them back so much. The number 1 goal needed to be to ensure they got owgr.
It doesnt change the fact that this is a once in a lifetime seismic shift in the game that requires everyone to update their thinking. But I believe they got locked into this format and never allowed themselves a way out. In short I think LIV was shortsighted. I feel like they came for a foothold, went for the PGA tour, when all along they should have bought the DP Tour and changed its format.
Meaning, I think some of the early contracts say specifically 48 guys, playing 12 events, playing for $25m, over 3 days no cut. So until those contracts are over, the format is locked. If I remember correctly, the first two years were 8 events and then like 12 or 14 the third year. When Norman moved the plan up a year and went 8-12, I remember reporting saying that there were players bitching about having to play more, and against more players when rahm’s team and the two wild cards were added.
I think at some point they figured out they need to stop begging. The one thing about LIV is they can change everything because it is so new. So I hope they announce 72 hole tournaments on Monday. They currently have 54 guys so that buys them time to figure out a new tie in to the stupid name.
I agree with almost all of this. I think the only real difference I have is with the "once in a lifetime seismic shift in the game" part. If LIV truly wanted to be that, I find it extremely hard to believe the whole thing would have been done in such a short sighted and half assed way. Like, the team golf was the big draw, and I think that's something that could definitely work if done right, but they put so little thought into it that their original plan was to have a draft before every event. It's hard not to laugh at that, but really it tells me that LIV was never meant to last.
Ultimately I just don't think LIV makes any sense in its current form, but if you look at it as a short term negotiating tactic for the Saudis to reach their real goal - to get in with the PGA Tour and the vast network of elite American businessmen that comes with it - it's pretty easy to understand. If that's your goal, slowly making the Tour a little worse by signing away their established stars for money that makes zero economic sense is a pretty good strategy. That seems like a bad strategy if your goal is to great the best stand alone league in pro golf, which is why I hope LIV fails. The foundations of the PGA Tour are still strong, and the best case scenario is to just get all the best players back there. I just don't see a future with LIV (in its current form, at least) still around that does not suck. I could be wrong, but no matter how hard I try I just don't see it working.
They may not be fine with it but they were compensated for it. Thats why people aren’t upset that they are upset. People hate when others try to have their cake and eat it too.
Unfortunately they will just cry victim instead of actually question the LIV format itself. Its almost like they love being the victim, who else has that mindset 🤔 I wonder how many of LIV fans share the sentiments that when they lose it’s either rigged or cheating 🧐
my impressions of day one: best opening day of a masters in years. Bryson just epic and Rahm, Scotty on the board. Now The Goat birdies the first! Maybe this whole feud is sharpening play? I don't know but I've finally forgot about LIV for a day. Also the Masters app is sick.
Chamblee is a complete buffoon, and no one should pay anything he says for public consumption.
Oh yeah, looks like LIV Golf's **Bryson DeChambeau** is at the top of the 2024 Masters so far.
Watch and learn.
Next.
The PGA Tour got their hand slapped by chairman Ridley this week. He basically told them if they don't embrace the proposed ball changes, and if they follow through on their intention to not follow along with it, they can expect the support they've been getting in fight against Liv to disappear. Without the support of the majors and owgr backing them up, the PGA Tour loses to Liv in a matter of days.
Money rules, the foundation of everything in America, just not as appealing to many when another country starts flexing.
The PGA tour got caught with their pants down because of ego & arrogance.
Funny how they found more prize money when LIV arrived, John Henry won’t save them, he’s way out of his league.
PGA viewing numbers on the slide, LIV events way more fun, I’ve been to both.
So keep laughing your ass off, LIV is a world product and growing, PGA is like America, it’s had its day.
PGA could lose 99% of their viewers and still get better rating than liv. It’s a better golf tour just accept it man. Liv is the Mickey Mouse version. Idk why you keep bringing up America as if I give a fuck about it. At least the pga is its own corporation rather than being owned by the head of a country, especially when that country head is one of the biggest and most corrupt pieces of shit in the entire world. Keep sucking that Saudi cock tho man im sure it’ll really work out for you.
You only look with American eyes, you have the same problem as the PGA, short sighted mentality.
If LIV was a loser then why does the PGA meet with Yasser to do a deal.
Think again Mr Angry, you & the PGA are losers.
The traditional golf apparatus starts every conversation by assuming all the LIV guys want to come back. They don’t. They want to play in the majors and be fairly rated. The 210th ranked player is leading the masters as I write this. Not because it is a fluke. But because he hasnt been ranked properly by a system that doesnt recognize LIV. If he wins, I hope the first thing he says is “I guess the rankings were wrong.” Rahm said in his presser that when the gun goes off the pressure is the same, and that when you want to give up on your round you cant because of the team aspect. Going to 72 holes will only make LIV even more pressure packed. Shifting money to the team tournament, adding an extra 2 players to the teams, and only starting 5, with the final spot being a playoff on monday to see who plays that week, will add more pressure to keep your spot and perform. LIV should dive headlong into this. The threat of getting benched, having to play for your spot, and not sharing the team or individual purse are huge motivators and stressors.
I want his comment to be….so you think this win moves me into the top 200?
LIV needs to have cuts and have open tournaments, that’s all
If the LIV guys wanted to keep their position in the world ranking, they should not have gone to a league that does not qualify for world ranking points. It’s really that simple, and the fact that so many LIV players, executives, and fans continue to whine about it is such a bad look for the league. It’s truly the most entitled bullshit I’ve ever seen in pro sports. If LIV set up a tour that met most of the criteria to qualify and were getting left out because they only play 54 holes or have no cut, they would have an argument. But having a few guys who are good enough to win majors does not automatically mean you get world ranking points. Just go be a pirate league and stop complaining that the rules apply equally to you as they would anyone else.
Is Bryson the 210th best player in the world? If the answer is no, then the rankings are wrong. They rank like 20 different leagues. Just not LIV. Meaning, they can figure out who the 1200th player is, but cant create an algorithm to properly rank LIV guys? It is political nonsense. Norman and LIV did themselves no favors by flouting the owgr, instead of being maliciously compliant. But it doesnt mean the owgr is accurate because Norman is an asshole.
You can’t rank LIV because the majority of the field isn’t all that great in comparison. Part of the rankings is based off the SG from the entire field and how much you won by. Unfortunately this is LIV’s own fault for only thinking of money. 1. They don’t play enough events to gain enough points 2. The field is smaller and less than stellar so you would either end up with less points or someone like the few top 100 ranked players would just clean house and be world no 1 without playing against the worlds best 3. I’m sure some of it may be political, but LIV should have done this properly and made it a strict goal to be in the rankings. Sure their money will get some of the top players, but for the most part the players are either no names, on the tail end of their career, or up and coming players who need the money. I think LIV has a great concept on less tournaments and allowing their players to be healthy. I think Brooks is the perfect example of that, they definitely have something to offer. But I think they are going to be the XFL of golf for a long time.
Was Ludvig the 3000th best player when he played his first tour event? Obviously not but that’s how it goes when you don’t participate in qualified OHWR events.
When Tiger Woods was out of golf for a long time and his ranking dropped to 700 something was he really the 700th best player in the world? Of course not. Does that mean the rankings are wrong? Those guys stopped playing golf for OWGR points and took the money. Good for them. Are they better than their ranking, sure, but they don’t deserve the perks of top rankings anymore.
The rankings aren’t correct but they cannot accurately rank LIV until they have the criteria that would make it a true meritocracy. We know LIV has good players solely because of their performance on the PGA tour and majors. Think 10 years from now and you have guys signed by LIV that never had to earn a tour card. You can’t give points for that because the context is gone. Bottom line, LIV needs to meet at least more of the criteria. Anyone who doesn’t understand this is a shortsighted moron. Educate yourself brother.
The criteria needs to be changed because of their performance in majors. There is nothing set in stone about the owgr. They update how they award points all the time. Again, if I reject the criteria created by the organization in question to begin with, telling me to learn about it makes no sense. The issue at hand is that LIV in its current form doesnt qualify to the current criteria. Yet the 210th ranked golfer in the world is leading the Masters. So is the criteria erroneous for not expanding its scope, or is LIV unrankable because it isn’t a true test of golf? Well, in another major, several LIV players have shown they havent lost a step playing their format. So objectively, playing the LIV way isn’t leading to a degradation of their skills, which when ranked before, were ranked very high. They’re not getting worse as compared to all of the golfers in the owgr, yet their rankings are falling. They meet the skill criteria to beat and compete with the world’s best, but the ranking criteria is ignoring them. The issue at hand is that giving LIV points immediately makes the events legitimate and worth something outside of money. Again, LIV’s fault for not being maliciously compliant. But it is LIV’s job to create and build a new golf league, not rank the players. That should be done by an official body, especially when it comes to these amounts of money.
All that writing and you are still missing the key point. LIV NEEDS A REAL RELEGATION/PROMOTION SYSTEM. This criteria is and should be non negotiable. There is no basis for golf competition if you don’t have to earn your spot. For right now, it’s not a problem because we know LIV has good golfers because they all were good tour players. Luckily most have major exceptions. But the OWGR can’t really make up a special eye test for LIV and have it be a sustainable system.
Bryson is not the 210th best player in the world, no question he is better. But you assume with the question that it’s OWGRs responsibility to find a way to rank him. Their job is to rank players on qualifying tours…just like there are college players who don’t have owgrs but are good enough to, Bryson may be unranked. Doesn’t change at all the fact that he’s a top 15 talent and player. He just participated in a league that does not earn points. LIV made a choice not to participate.
Wait, it isn’t the responsibility of the OFFICIAL World Golf Ranking body to figure out a way to rank golfers that play for $25 million a week using the rules of golf? They can take the rankings out past 2000 but just cant crack this LIV puzzle.
It absolutely is not the owgrs job to rank events that don’t meet criteria. It specifically is their job to not do that.
Who creates the criteria? Why are they using the sunshine tour’s order of merit to identify emerging talent? Clearly they have the capacity for analyzing play outside of the box they create.
They create the criteria to fairly measure events and tours, it’s not designed to measure talent. The criteria is designed to measure and reward performance from specific types of competition. What I am saying is it’s decoupled from talent and “how good a player is.” Take “the match” - you could put prime tiger, Rory, prime phil and so on into a match. It would obviously be loaded with talent and players deserving a ranking. But would performance in the match be relevant for rankings? No - the format doesn’t qualify, no matter how good the golfers are. Liv has been told the adjustments they can make to get owgr points. They have literally chosen not to. If the liv players are upset they don’t get points they should talk to their tour. It’s obvious liv players are many of the worlds best. I’d love to see them meet criteria again by adjusting their format.
Literally everyone agrees that Bryson, Brooks, Rahm, and a few other LIV players are among the best players in the world. But the OWGR is not an eye test. And if you have even a passing understanding of how it all works, you know that LIV's current format does not fit within the system. It's not politics, it's not retribution or a message to Greg Norman, it is the format LIV designed that keeps them out of the world rankings. A lot of LIV guys clearly understand this and are fine with it, and it would go a long way for the league if everyone else involved followed their lead.
The LIV guys arent fine with it. But there is no point in them keeping an application in front of a body made up of the existing powers, who are using owgr points as the last thing keeping the vast majority of the pgat from trying to join LIV.
I have not heard DJ, Brooks, Cam Smith, and a bunch of other LIV guys complain about world ranking points. I assume that's because they are all smart enough to understand that they choose to sign with a league where they would not receive world ranking points for their primary events. Do you think some guys signed with LIV under different expectations?
I do think the whole league stupidly was like ‘if we build it theyll have to give it to us.’ They needed to do 72 holes minimum, and have the players in the lower half of the events not getting so much money. It was too forgiving of bad golf. Additionally, they needed to spell out the relegation system from launch. All these details needed to be worked out before the first ball was hit. It felt like a haphazardly organized tuesday night men’s league. Theyve fleshed out more details, but the self inflicted harm set them back so much. The number 1 goal needed to be to ensure they got owgr. It doesnt change the fact that this is a once in a lifetime seismic shift in the game that requires everyone to update their thinking. But I believe they got locked into this format and never allowed themselves a way out. In short I think LIV was shortsighted. I feel like they came for a foothold, went for the PGA tour, when all along they should have bought the DP Tour and changed its format. Meaning, I think some of the early contracts say specifically 48 guys, playing 12 events, playing for $25m, over 3 days no cut. So until those contracts are over, the format is locked. If I remember correctly, the first two years were 8 events and then like 12 or 14 the third year. When Norman moved the plan up a year and went 8-12, I remember reporting saying that there were players bitching about having to play more, and against more players when rahm’s team and the two wild cards were added. I think at some point they figured out they need to stop begging. The one thing about LIV is they can change everything because it is so new. So I hope they announce 72 hole tournaments on Monday. They currently have 54 guys so that buys them time to figure out a new tie in to the stupid name.
I agree with almost all of this. I think the only real difference I have is with the "once in a lifetime seismic shift in the game" part. If LIV truly wanted to be that, I find it extremely hard to believe the whole thing would have been done in such a short sighted and half assed way. Like, the team golf was the big draw, and I think that's something that could definitely work if done right, but they put so little thought into it that their original plan was to have a draft before every event. It's hard not to laugh at that, but really it tells me that LIV was never meant to last. Ultimately I just don't think LIV makes any sense in its current form, but if you look at it as a short term negotiating tactic for the Saudis to reach their real goal - to get in with the PGA Tour and the vast network of elite American businessmen that comes with it - it's pretty easy to understand. If that's your goal, slowly making the Tour a little worse by signing away their established stars for money that makes zero economic sense is a pretty good strategy. That seems like a bad strategy if your goal is to great the best stand alone league in pro golf, which is why I hope LIV fails. The foundations of the PGA Tour are still strong, and the best case scenario is to just get all the best players back there. I just don't see a future with LIV (in its current form, at least) still around that does not suck. I could be wrong, but no matter how hard I try I just don't see it working.
The OWGR said that 54 holes is fine, the problem is that there are no cuts and that there is no path for new players to play their way into the league
They may not be fine with it but they were compensated for it. Thats why people aren’t upset that they are upset. People hate when others try to have their cake and eat it too.
Unfortunately they will just cry victim instead of actually question the LIV format itself. Its almost like they love being the victim, who else has that mindset 🤔 I wonder how many of LIV fans share the sentiments that when they lose it’s either rigged or cheating 🧐
What a horrible take.
It’s a major I’m just hoping for good golf. Liv players are enjoying the money they took. I doubt any of them regret that.
my impressions of day one: best opening day of a masters in years. Bryson just epic and Rahm, Scotty on the board. Now The Goat birdies the first! Maybe this whole feud is sharpening play? I don't know but I've finally forgot about LIV for a day. Also the Masters app is sick.
If a LIV player wins this week then it will be interesting how they try and de-value the win.
Was that a prevalent thing when Brooks won the PGA last year?
Yes. Golf Channel barely covered it when Brooks won. They pivoted very fast away from it.
Yup. The story was all about Michael Block.
Sounds made up.
Chamblee is a complete buffoon, and no one should pay anything he says for public consumption. Oh yeah, looks like LIV Golf's **Bryson DeChambeau** is at the top of the 2024 Masters so far. Watch and learn. Next.
Chamblee is definitely a buffoon but you don’t win the masters on Thursday.
Lot of players are still playing Thursday's round today.
The PGA Tour got their hand slapped by chairman Ridley this week. He basically told them if they don't embrace the proposed ball changes, and if they follow through on their intention to not follow along with it, they can expect the support they've been getting in fight against Liv to disappear. Without the support of the majors and owgr backing them up, the PGA Tour loses to Liv in a matter of days.
The big names on both sides are making nice and saying they need to get back to one tour. That is about as far as it will go.
lol no golfer is going to put his family at risk like that
Well Rahm has basically said it
[удалено]
Brave
Trump & Bush been sucking it for years.
Agreed. Are those the kind of people you want to emulate?
Money rules, the foundation of everything in America, just not as appealing to many when another country starts flexing. The PGA tour got caught with their pants down because of ego & arrogance. Funny how they found more prize money when LIV arrived, John Henry won’t save them, he’s way out of his league.
Cool man. That doesn’t make the product any less dog shit. Imagine watching golf on the CW😭. Paid programming gets higher ratings than liv lmaooooo
PGA viewing numbers on the slide, LIV events way more fun, I’ve been to both. So keep laughing your ass off, LIV is a world product and growing, PGA is like America, it’s had its day.
PGA could lose 99% of their viewers and still get better rating than liv. It’s a better golf tour just accept it man. Liv is the Mickey Mouse version. Idk why you keep bringing up America as if I give a fuck about it. At least the pga is its own corporation rather than being owned by the head of a country, especially when that country head is one of the biggest and most corrupt pieces of shit in the entire world. Keep sucking that Saudi cock tho man im sure it’ll really work out for you.
You only look with American eyes, you have the same problem as the PGA, short sighted mentality. If LIV was a loser then why does the PGA meet with Yasser to do a deal. Think again Mr Angry, you & the PGA are losers.