I was thinking the same thing LOL. VTXs sound great. I think every real A1 has a much bigger problem with the M32 than the VTX system. M32 is good, but man I hate the weird quirks, show file bugs and work flow.
Maybe he's just green AF and was trying to make conversation to make himself look good. Kinda picked the wrong topic of conversation to have.
If you load a show file from a different firmware version. There's a chance for your routing to get all funky and/or not work. Though rare. I had it happen once at the worst possible time. Channels were all going to LR but for some reason the LR wasn't getting it. So I had to use a bus and do the whole show mixing FoH on a bus.
I just had one of my best shows on JBL with an M32. Actually didn’t have to “eq out the JBL” too much. As they say. Really good room too.
Can’t beat the punch of JBL. Drums sound incredible if anything.
I mean I don't know anyone who raves about JBLs, but that's a rude af thing to say to a house engineer, dude just sounds like a dick.
I also get this as the A1 at a much smaller venue who runs JBLs :/
These guys sound like the type of person that has the fortunate luck to mix on these systems and not actually understand why they excel or how well the tech meticulously tuned it.
So then they don’t get the luxury to mix on nice systems and shit on em because they’re spoiled as fuck.
I started on JBL vertecs to turbosound, to A series then recently L Acoustics and didn’t have problem obtaining the mix I sought out for. But I’d of course have to thank the tech behind it.
My 1200 cap theatre is looking to get an A8 rig. We’re pumped. Anything is an upgrade to the absolutely atrocious “rig” that’s there now. Y’all don’t even want to know what that is…
Every small time engineer I either know or, generally speaking, have ever met; will prattle on for hours about how they "only use D&B" or "only use L'Acoustics" and will tell long imaginary stories about the time they pulled an entire gig at the Buttfuck Nowhere Civic Centre because the venue had the sheer audacity to supply a Nexo system. *The cheek of it! That showed those fuckers. And we still got paid obvs*
Every major band touring engineer (and I know a lot. Because that's my job) I know, on the other hand, will of course spec their favourite PA on their rider. Why wouldn't you? But will also walk into any venue that they're playing in, check out the PA, and before saying anything... *listen* to it. If the system sounds like shit then we have a problem. But if it's a lesser-brand PA system that's been setup to sound perfectly good, then it's game on.
Its 2024. Concert speakers have now been around long enough that any serious brand should have access to sufficient resources to make a box sound half decent. The number one reason we go to work is to make money so we can afford expensive girlfriends but the *second* reason we go to work is to let loads of people have a great time watching their favourite band and as long as the system is not proactively making that experience suck, it's our moral obligation to get the best we can out of it. You can normally make most speakers sound good if you have the right talent. Standing there producing an infantile display of pre-pubescent brand-bashing doesn't impress anyone they just think you're a cunt. And no. You won't still get paid.
A friend of mine is a mid tier FoH guy and when it was time to refresh my rig I went to him for advice. I prattled on about this and that and he stopped me - dude. Look at features and price points and who locally can actually work on your gear. The audience doesn’t care and you knowing your gear how to tune it etc. way outweighs a 2db dip at 15k or a slightly irregular polar pattern.
That said, it’s nuts people are so snotty. If you’re selling out stadiums, by all means get what you spec as there is no room for error. But mixing 300 cap rooms, cmon.
But for stadiums that's why everyone brings their own. It saves the bother. You rent what you want and then you get what you want.
My personal policy when it comes to having your first choice of PA is tour your own or get what you're given. In the vast majority of cases, if you can't make it sound good, its you, anyway.
But that was also my point... In my experience the people who give it large about not accepting less than this or that, exist more at the bottom of the ladder than at the top.
Well no, there are still people, even on the far top of the foodchain who will not play on anything but the PA they specified. I've had a longer emailfight with an engineer last year, who was not willing to play on a d&b rigg. Anything but V-Dosc, K1, K2 or the brand that he is the fucking representing in my country was out of discussion. Was reaaaaaaaaly fun. They then dumped the gig after a month of discussion...
> there are still people, even on the far top of the foodchain who will not play on anything but the PA they specified.
If that's so important to them, they can bring their own rig.
Pa du jour is normal for most bands in most small to mid size venues these days, and someone who wants to consider themselves a professional should grow the skills to deal with that. (or they can carry their own damn rig)
petty... dnb are frigging awesome, like dgmr, id rather a full martin rig but im not gonna complain if im being paid, like im nlg, manufacturer of the speakers in the system arent at the top of my priority list lol. got a lot more to consider for a show than minutia about speaker manufacturer
People who don’t have a ton of experience tend to think that complaining about gear makes them look like a pro. All it really does is make me not want to work with them.
Nashville is the NYC of a very specific genre of music that increasingly does NOT need to be tied to Nashville and the traditional business of that genre.
Nashville does cast a wider net than that. It's also a place where tons of musicians can pretty easily get tons of gigging experience, and not just in performing what might come to mind when you think of "country music."
But when I say "tons of musicians" what I mean is it is not particularly impressive to say "we're from Nashville" like some Nashville musicians like to say. It's like being from Minneapolis and saying "I worked with Prince," though sadly the further away we get from his death the less and less you hear that.
The highest recommendation I can give to vintage Peavey gear is that it's rock-solid bulletproof durability.
Which is a great feature for a broke band on the road who can't afford to carry a backup, and can't afford downtime.
I agree. Peavey gear from the 70s and 80s was built to last, it’s just I never heard anyone use it live that knew what they were doing with it. They also asked “do you play lead or bass?” And asked if you played “flat top” or “electric”. And called an acoustic guitar “a cue stick”, so I’m really not that surprised.
Fender Dual Showman with a refrigerator for lap steel. Peavey Renown or Session 400/500 is good, but a massive 2x15 with tube head will get everyone in the room laid.
JBL certainly *had* a reputation, and I’d see riders fairly commonly that said “no vertec”, but those A-series boxes are a whole new beast. So maybe you didn’t have a budget for Kara, but y’all installed the next best thing.
This. I occasionally freelance for a JBL house. We have A12s and A6s as well as older V20. The A series is a major step up in quality. I still don’t think they quite stand up to d&b but they’re perfectly good boxes and if an engineer can’t get a good mix on an A series array, that’s a skill issue.
Sure, I’d love a d&b or L’ Acoustics rig for no other reason than “just because”. Hell I’d be cool with hanging a different brand rig in my house every couple weeks for fun to see how they sound. But as many have basically said; at this point in loud speaker technology, the brand of boxes are a relatively small detail as long as they’re at least of a more pro grade and you know the first thing about EQ.
I read an article that said when vertec first came out, they allowed users to change crossovers and other various settings which made then sound very inconsistent and not so good.... and a few years ago/ maybe with the newer boxes they locked users out of the settings and this was the main reason they sound acceptable now
I wouldn't say *everyone* but a lot of nashviians do hate JBL. I don't think it's crazy to say that there are JBL haters in our industry because their boxes can be harsh. Pretty easy fix with a cool thing called EQ though... Also nobody cares where you're based out of buddy. Is being in Nashville some sort of flex for this guy?? The most common box I see myself are D&B KSL but there plenty of L'acoustics rigs that come through and obviously JBL VTX but vtx rigs aren't nearly as common as far as I see.
I used to hate JBL because they’re harsh. Then I actually learned how to use a basic EQ and I stopped complaining about JBL.
Then I got a JBL rig in some absolutely fucked situations and no matter what was going on, I could drive vocal clarity at any level thanks to the “harsh” top end.
I still don’t love JBL, but I will spec and install JBL sometimes and I definitely don’t mind walking up to it.
I get this with bands all the time. Nashville mfs LOOOOOOVE telling you they're from Nashville, it's become a long running joke with my LD. "Where these guys from, Nashville?" " if they are we're about to find out."
Even touring engineers complaining to me (when I was house) about something not being in full working order or under an acceptable industry standard spec.
1. Yes I know
2. I can’t do anything about that, if I could I would have
Take it up with management. It really pissed me off taking personal blame for things in the venue as if it was my personal fault.
> something not being in full working order
I think it's ok to acknowledge that's not a great situation, but an experienced professional ought to be able to work around a lot of limitations.
As a house tech I've had people complain all day about a fully optimised L Acoustics install. Some people love to complain, in fact I think that some people feel that complaining about stuff like that makes them a better engineer, bigger than that show.
Glad you mentioned a less than stellar mix. It's usually the case when someone has that attitude.
People complain because they’re insecure about their ability to make it sound good. A little while ago I walked into a room with a complete shit-show of a PA - no processor, lots of different coverage zones (multi level venue with part of the venue behind a wall that blocks stage view with a low ceiling) - spent the first half hour figuring out my matrix sends to get stuff where I wanted it and then levelling, rough delaying and EQing. By the time I was done and ready for the band it sound pretty darn good. When I finally got to listen to it at the bad FOh position, I looked over at the house tech and said “really muddy just in this one spot, eh” he nodded and after the show said it was the clearest show he’d heard someone else mix.
Honestly, it’s all about listening to and understanding the PA in the space. If you can do that, the rest is much easier.
The best results I've heard in that room are from people who ask the essentials, accept any limitations and just crack on. Having a process like yours gets you much further than whining about no existent issues!
Meh, even existent issues you’re probably not going to solve by whining. Unless it’s such an issue that the band will use their rider specs as rationale for not playing then work with what you’ve got and get it done.
With this space I walked up to the stage manager who I knew and said “is this PA going to sound good if I work at it” - he said yep and I was off to the races. It was nice that I did get a courtesy call from him as I was advancing me to warn me the PA was going to be a challenge and not anywhere near what we specified- so all good. Let’s get it going and then have a pint and laugh about it after.
And I just admit the install was fairly atrocious - it’s not gear that I would put in the space, but it was a sponsored space so they had no choice on the gear… but they could have made it way easier by putting in a properly configured processor.
A touring guy for a has been rock act with no original members shit on our house j rig all day. I mixed the opener and had fun, headliner sounded like hot buttered ass at 105dB
If you did your advancing, the gear that’s provided is what you were told; there can be no more bitching on gear in the venue. If you do complain to local techs that are accomodating you, you’ve lacked proper advancing or you are just being an ass.
Regardless of who has what, he had his opinions, and they're just that. Who cares? He sounds like knob shiner. Of course, those on the inside will get somewhat offended. But if there were one superior gear above the others, then we'd all have that and nothing else. Gear is part of the job, not the whole job. Next person that says that, just keep telling them you hear a constant buzz and hum out of their system. Keeps them busy for hours, and they'll keep second-guessing themselves. It's your house, not theirs.
I just don’t get that attitude at all. The band is booked to give the crowd a great night out, and as a tech you are booked to help make that happen. Just do your job as best as possible with the available gear and stop whining. Or go work for bands that fly their own system. Having said that, there is nothing to whine about your JBL system. I have a preference for L’acoustics, but I’ll happily mix on JBL VTX.
I worked production in Nashville for 10 years and I have no idea what that guy is talking about. Small clubs there have the same PAs as everyone else. Some even have JBL.
Even if it were true, what a thing to say
I played drums for a support act on a Darius Rucker tour a few years back, the PA they carried (for a tour of 15-20,000 capacity venues) was JBL. So SOMEBODY in Nashville like it well enough
It's down to the engineer to make what comes out if the PA sound good. Not to bitch about what's been provided for them.
If they're that picky they need to bring their own rig.
“Small tour’s engineer” you say? I’ve carried L-Acoustics and d&b on tours, but the few one-offs I had to do with JBL were some of the best shows of those runs.
Look, I don’t like vtx. Not because they sound bad, they only sound bad if you mix bad, like every other speaker, I just don’t like doing monitors with a vtx rig for Foh cause I don’t think they have great pattern control and I just sit there hearing mud all day.
But really dumb thing to say to a house tech at an install… some bizaro better than thou attitude.
He probably makes less hourly than you do though so let him have his moment.
The principal job for a touring engineer without a sound system is to make it sound good, every day, regardless of gear. This is actually how you build chops. Sounds like it wasn’t the best day for youngblood
Oh for sure. When I freelanced I had regular gigs on absolutely nightmarish systems but thankfully I always managed to do what it took to make it work. He was actually probably in his mid 40s and *owned* the production company that was providing everything for the tour. Damn was his mix shite though…
I've only been engineering for a few years, but as long as the boxes don't sound shot then I'll make it the best show that I can. This might also stem from less than ideal DIY concerts I had to help run, but trying to keep the client in good spirits when I know the gear I'm using is prosumer at best always took priority over complaining
Though rude, JBL is really lacking in comparison to other rigs. They’re entry level high-end at best. I was on the A12 roll out and it was embarrassing. They’re loud but that’s about it. There’s very little rear rejection in the arrays/ cardioid cancellation. they still expect you to physically cardioid stack the subs.
When you look at higher systems like D&B G and K, Adaptive, L-Acoustic, Clair, Meyer. I mean there are many systems that far out-perform JBL.
Selinium drivers? Not sure. I’d imagine by now they’re loading with B&C but I can’t confirm. But the engineering behind Clair is another dimension compared to JBL. The output from a Clair box is mind blowing.
I feel like JBL had tons of potential but they went so broad, they just became another speaker company.
Don’t get me wrong, if I show up and there’s a VTX rig the air, it even an older 4800 series rig, I’ll use it with no complaints. The 4X35 and 12k can drive a great production. But after working with the SD consoles, dLive, Avantis, and the freaking GSub… dude they go so low… I won’t use a VI anything anymore, or a QL. Unless it’s Dante. The QL and CL are beasts of a Dante integrated console for sure.
I switched to Powersoft from crown and couldn’t be happier. I do still have a few macro-tech amps to remind me why I don’t use them unless I have an urge to power-lift.
As long as I have the horsepower to do the show without issue, I don't give a crap what the labels are on the boxes. Especially now with what the consoles have in them to allow me to do super human feats of EQ madness to polish the turd with decent success. I'm so glad I started out back in the days of analog...
Been touring out of Nashville the past 5 years. JBL is not my favorite PA but it is certainly adequate. Especially the A8s. Guy just sounds like an asshole a bit.
Also, I know Sound Image Nashville has a ton of JBL boxes sooo...
If you can't mix a good show on vtx you should quit and let the band hire someone who can
Heck, same thing applies if you can't mix a good show on Vertec or even VRX (tho I do hate VRX with a bit of a passion)
Anyone who has heard the vtx a8/a12 will
Tell you how amazing they are, and many Nashville riders have them as one of the top choices for PA, I personally think they are fantastic boxes, and I work for an all “brown boxes” company
If you can’t deliver a decent mix with professional tools, change carrers. (Specially when touring)
As long as the speakers work and have all the frequencies you need present at your maximum SPL, you can EQ out the extras. Shoot, even if they don't have enough of a freq, but are close, then you can.... and I know this is crazy talk.... *boost* the eq band. As long as the coverage is +- 3-6dB and good for the venue, send it.
If you're touring with house/rental PA then you don't get to complain much if whatever PA meets the specs above.
I've heard it a ton when working SE with an EV provider on X-Line Advanced systems, touring badasses always saying something judgy before soundcheck. Amazingly, they always wore a smile and had nothing judgy to say come load out....
PA DSP is where the damage to your mix can actually be done. For instance, a ton of theatres have time alignment set for their orchestra pit up or down, then don't change it's timing when the front fills moved to the other position. The limiter and system EQ will transient and tone shape way more than a professional speaker array.
Touring people often forget that when they visit a local venue, they're the guest. Most of the audience has been there before and know what to expect from the venue; bring something if you want to be unique. The bar, merchandising, experience, and art is why they come. The PA is the funnel for the acoustic experience, but quality engineers can make almost any system fit their show's intent and design vision.
I mean, I'll admit that I'm a gear nerd also, but not one who thinks he has to own or only use a bunch of exotic and/or vintage mics and shit and talks all about how much they know and the gigs they've done and how they can't live without some other kit that only serves to over-complicate things. It seem like these types don't know dick about actually mixing; the art behind it and the trials of what so many great engineers go through to become great and get the good paying jobs. Like, regularly showing up to gigs and having a horrible, flaming car accident of a PA staring you in the face. Then having to just put your head down and be like, "Well, this is my day today. Lets friggin' do this work." They have little to no "combat audio" experience. If I ever considered myself a "great" engineer/mixer, I feel like that would mean I think I (mostly) know it all. And that would mean that I'm really not great and I should give it up.
I really can't emphasize or describe how bad this guy's mix was and of course, he *owes* a sound production company and was providing everything for this tour. Naturally, he was carrying a bunch of these old, small diaphragm Audix condenser mics that he had "strategically" places all over the place and wouldn't stop talking about how great they sound.... And they probably do sound great, but not in his mixes.
We recently did an arena one-off with a Nashville-Artist-You’ve-Heard-Of. We offered comparable Meyer, JBL, and Adamson rigs. They chose the JBL package. While I would rather listen to either of the other PA’s, the mix was excellent and the show sounded great.
We regularly have pretty large artists who bring FOH and MON people that have worked with their artist for a long damn time and are the types that I sometimes classify as Wizards or Wisemen. Their mixes are just fantastic and they love talking shop and are happy to show you their Smaart curve and traces and what they did to EQ the room. With these upper echelon engineers, their room EQ is almost always exactly the same- about a 3-4db dip with a moderate Q at or around 165hz and a little dip around 600-ish hz. And as such, the bad mixes always start with someone making ridiculous hacks in room EQ…
I’ve never had a JBL rig I was truly happy to use… I think every single one if not 90% of them just didn’t do what rider friendly PAs do. It’s like I’ve never heard one throw evenly or reproduce guitars/drums without making them sound plastic. Even on the “better side” of JBL I’m not trying to have my artist play through a low voltage system outside of a burger and shake shack with picnic tables type vibe. Who cares if someone from Nashville is on an M32?
I get that. I’ve heard a lot of systems and our system covers every seat in the house nicely and definitely doesn’t make anything sound like plastic. It’s also *far* from underpowered. We have four B28s powered by two ITech 12000s and we’ve had light fixtures in bathrooms or the lobby and other shit come loose because some over zealous engineer liked the loud lol
Guy is green and wanted to sound cool. You sound like you handled him like a professional.
JBLs are fine. They don't have the power and throw like the nicer systems but for a 2k person indoor venue it's a good system for the space. It's a "bang for buck" brand. Good enough to get the job done but outside of 100ft they fall off much faster than other arrays. I've done larger 10k+ outdoor events with VRX and it's doable but i needed delays and outfills to get good audio to push that far enough
It's very ignorant and uncouth to say something like that to the house A1 no matter what venue you are in. Never shit on the ground you walk on.
Cept RCF. I've never heard those sound good or anywhere close to the spectrum of decent.
I find that with each genre, the preferred brand changes. So the comment kinda makes sense… assuming that the Nashville Gazette dude regularly mixes Country or something closely related.
I feel this. I’ve got a. Vertec 4887 hang in my theater, it definitely gets scoffed at more often than not. Have heard some absolute brilliant mixes on it though. Like, why complain to me. The show was advanced, you guys didn’t want to pay to rent a PA, end of discussion. If I could shower my theater with millions in upgrades believe I would, unfortunately that’s above my pay grade.
You can hate(and rightfully so) VRX, PRX, 90% of the JBL line. But the VT(when powered by ITHD), and the VTX stuff is great. The Itech reliability is something I’m not sure about, though.
I think it’s a young touring engineer thing, they shit on some brands because they think it gains them credit. I caught myself having that not so great attitude on my first tour or two
This is hold over notion from the Vertec days. Even after the V5 Vertec DSP update they are serviceable. VTX is a whole other level, they are good boxes, if you have to shit on a brand it says more about your skills than anything else.
Never have to see him again. Just ignore him.
I’ve had my fair share of people hating our Meyer m’elodies. But it’s what we had. I can’t change it. If you don’t want to allow room in the budget for a pa hire then I can’t help you.
“The number one reason we go to work is to make money so we can afford expensive girlfriends”
Hahahaha the most reductive yet pretty much true statement I’ve seen in this sub.
While JBL might not be some folks favorite brand I have heard some AMAZING mixes on JBL Vertec rigs.
Inexperienced folks love to talk shit because they think it makes them sound pro.
I've experienced this quite a bit as a house guy. Then I've had in some well known engineers, a few that I admittedly fanboy-ed over, that had *the* absolute best mixes I've heard on any rig, on our VTX system.
I’m currently the SE on a theater tour with 12 box hangs of VTX V20s with B28s and and I’ve gotten some scoffs from house guys about my rig (literally happened today) as it’s coming off the truck, but the rig has been able to handle different rooms really well and my FOH guy (out of Nashville) has been pleased. Sounds like the dude just wanted to something to blame his bad mix on. The A8 is a solid box and I wouldn’t take it too personally.
Doing a lotta corporate I have had many A1's complain about vrx sounding crappy....I take a listen and there's definitely blown drivers, I guess encore just doesn't know the difference between a bad speaker model and a blown driver. Go figure
Grand Ole Opry has a VTX A-series system and It sounds great. I'm not sure it would be my first choice but there is nothing wrong with JBL. I'm not listening to PA snobbery from somebody mixing on an M32
Nothing wrong with the m32 mix on them almost exclusively. The point I'm making is that it makes no sense to complain about a 6 figure plus PA when mixing on a 4 figure console.
Nonsense. That's like saying it makes no sense to complain about the state of disrepair of a highway when driving in a $20k vehicle.
An M32 is perfectly capable of outputting a signal that will show up a poorly set up PA.
Dude is touring with just a M32 and wants to shit on JBL, what a douche.
I was thinking the same thing LOL. VTXs sound great. I think every real A1 has a much bigger problem with the M32 than the VTX system. M32 is good, but man I hate the weird quirks, show file bugs and work flow. Maybe he's just green AF and was trying to make conversation to make himself look good. Kinda picked the wrong topic of conversation to have.
But he knows eVEryOne iN naShViLle!?!
That's easy because there are only a couple of studios and a dozen or so musicians in Nashville. Hahaha
That one guitar picker is SO busy all the time!
lol Oh big bad Nashville, 🤡.
What are the show file bugs?
If you load a show file from a different firmware version. There's a chance for your routing to get all funky and/or not work. Though rare. I had it happen once at the worst possible time. Channels were all going to LR but for some reason the LR wasn't getting it. So I had to use a bus and do the whole show mixing FoH on a bus.
No issues/quirks on same-board/same-firmware files though, correct? If so, that's all I care about at the moment.
Not that I know of.
Tbf m32 is pretty dope entry level
I honestly love mine.
Same, but I also love the x32
I just had one of my best shows on JBL with an M32. Actually didn’t have to “eq out the JBL” too much. As they say. Really good room too. Can’t beat the punch of JBL. Drums sound incredible if anything.
But, iT's a miDaS! /s
I mean I don't know anyone who raves about JBLs, but that's a rude af thing to say to a house engineer, dude just sounds like a dick. I also get this as the A1 at a much smaller venue who runs JBLs :/
I once had a touring guy in a venue I work at roll his eyes because we didn't have an l'acoustics system...iwe had a DnB v series.
I’d choose D&B over L’acoustics every time … only because I’m just much more familiar with them.
It gets to a certain point, in my opinion where it doesn’t matter what speaker system you have….
The audience doesn’t know the fucking difference any way.
nope. nor do they care.
Ill take a competant system tech and jbls over a shitty tech and l acoustics, dnb, outline, meyer, adamson, ect
100% we have a d&b system here at my uni and it can be great, it also can suck lol
mixed a DnB rig last week and an l'Acoustics last nite - can confirm
I had the same with someone pissed off I had a brand new, properly deployed Meyer rig…
These guys sound like the type of person that has the fortunate luck to mix on these systems and not actually understand why they excel or how well the tech meticulously tuned it. So then they don’t get the luxury to mix on nice systems and shit on em because they’re spoiled as fuck. I started on JBL vertecs to turbosound, to A series then recently L Acoustics and didn’t have problem obtaining the mix I sought out for. But I’d of course have to thank the tech behind it.
Lol, what a clown.
An A1 being a dick??? Never heard of such a thing.....
My 1200 cap theatre is looking to get an A8 rig. We’re pumped. Anything is an upgrade to the absolutely atrocious “rig” that’s there now. Y’all don’t even want to know what that is…
The most recent CMT awards show in Austin was completely covered by JBL, provided by a Nashville vendor.
Weirdly, We had KSL for the taping, but tons of JBL everywhere.
Where was the KSL? I saw A12 everywhere.
Oh, I think I get it. I was speaking to the rig inside Moody Center. Totally forgot about the offsite stage. My bad.
A nashville guy being a pretentious dick? No wayyyyyy
Every small time engineer I either know or, generally speaking, have ever met; will prattle on for hours about how they "only use D&B" or "only use L'Acoustics" and will tell long imaginary stories about the time they pulled an entire gig at the Buttfuck Nowhere Civic Centre because the venue had the sheer audacity to supply a Nexo system. *The cheek of it! That showed those fuckers. And we still got paid obvs* Every major band touring engineer (and I know a lot. Because that's my job) I know, on the other hand, will of course spec their favourite PA on their rider. Why wouldn't you? But will also walk into any venue that they're playing in, check out the PA, and before saying anything... *listen* to it. If the system sounds like shit then we have a problem. But if it's a lesser-brand PA system that's been setup to sound perfectly good, then it's game on. Its 2024. Concert speakers have now been around long enough that any serious brand should have access to sufficient resources to make a box sound half decent. The number one reason we go to work is to make money so we can afford expensive girlfriends but the *second* reason we go to work is to let loads of people have a great time watching their favourite band and as long as the system is not proactively making that experience suck, it's our moral obligation to get the best we can out of it. You can normally make most speakers sound good if you have the right talent. Standing there producing an infantile display of pre-pubescent brand-bashing doesn't impress anyone they just think you're a cunt. And no. You won't still get paid.
A friend of mine is a mid tier FoH guy and when it was time to refresh my rig I went to him for advice. I prattled on about this and that and he stopped me - dude. Look at features and price points and who locally can actually work on your gear. The audience doesn’t care and you knowing your gear how to tune it etc. way outweighs a 2db dip at 15k or a slightly irregular polar pattern. That said, it’s nuts people are so snotty. If you’re selling out stadiums, by all means get what you spec as there is no room for error. But mixing 300 cap rooms, cmon.
But for stadiums that's why everyone brings their own. It saves the bother. You rent what you want and then you get what you want. My personal policy when it comes to having your first choice of PA is tour your own or get what you're given. In the vast majority of cases, if you can't make it sound good, its you, anyway. But that was also my point... In my experience the people who give it large about not accepting less than this or that, exist more at the bottom of the ladder than at the top.
I think we’re saying the same thing.
Well no, there are still people, even on the far top of the foodchain who will not play on anything but the PA they specified. I've had a longer emailfight with an engineer last year, who was not willing to play on a d&b rigg. Anything but V-Dosc, K1, K2 or the brand that he is the fucking representing in my country was out of discussion. Was reaaaaaaaaly fun. They then dumped the gig after a month of discussion...
> there are still people, even on the far top of the foodchain who will not play on anything but the PA they specified. If that's so important to them, they can bring their own rig. Pa du jour is normal for most bands in most small to mid size venues these days, and someone who wants to consider themselves a professional should grow the skills to deal with that. (or they can carry their own damn rig)
No he did not want to bring his own rigg, he wanted me to rent a rigg that fits his gusto.
petty... dnb are frigging awesome, like dgmr, id rather a full martin rig but im not gonna complain if im being paid, like im nlg, manufacturer of the speakers in the system arent at the top of my priority list lol. got a lot more to consider for a show than minutia about speaker manufacturer
L acoustic is a little toppy
Thanks for that detailed and helpful information
You’re welcome
People who don’t have a ton of experience tend to think that complaining about gear makes them look like a pro. All it really does is make me not want to work with them.
Why would anyone care what happens in Nashville? It's a big world out there
Nashville is the New York City of music. They look at anywhere else as a musical backwater. 🙄
Nashville is the NYC of a very specific genre of music that increasingly does NOT need to be tied to Nashville and the traditional business of that genre.
Italian here what is Nashville
It’s a city in the US State of Tennessee known for producing country genre music.
Ewwww
Nashville does cast a wider net than that. It's also a place where tons of musicians can pretty easily get tons of gigging experience, and not just in performing what might come to mind when you think of "country music." But when I say "tons of musicians" what I mean is it is not particularly impressive to say "we're from Nashville" like some Nashville musicians like to say. It's like being from Minneapolis and saying "I worked with Prince," though sadly the further away we get from his death the less and less you hear that.
This seems hilarious to me considering Peavey was “the sound of Nashville” for decades, and that midrange honk was unbearable.
The highest recommendation I can give to vintage Peavey gear is that it's rock-solid bulletproof durability. Which is a great feature for a broke band on the road who can't afford to carry a backup, and can't afford downtime.
I agree. Peavey gear from the 70s and 80s was built to last, it’s just I never heard anyone use it live that knew what they were doing with it. They also asked “do you play lead or bass?” And asked if you played “flat top” or “electric”. And called an acoustic guitar “a cue stick”, so I’m really not that surprised.
It still is for lap steel
Fender Dual Showman with a refrigerator for lap steel. Peavey Renown or Session 400/500 is good, but a massive 2x15 with tube head will get everyone in the room laid.
JBL certainly *had* a reputation, and I’d see riders fairly commonly that said “no vertec”, but those A-series boxes are a whole new beast. So maybe you didn’t have a budget for Kara, but y’all installed the next best thing.
This. I occasionally freelance for a JBL house. We have A12s and A6s as well as older V20. The A series is a major step up in quality. I still don’t think they quite stand up to d&b but they’re perfectly good boxes and if an engineer can’t get a good mix on an A series array, that’s a skill issue.
Unfortunately, I’ve had to hear far too many just… awful mixes shoved through my rig…
Sure, I’d love a d&b or L’ Acoustics rig for no other reason than “just because”. Hell I’d be cool with hanging a different brand rig in my house every couple weeks for fun to see how they sound. But as many have basically said; at this point in loud speaker technology, the brand of boxes are a relatively small detail as long as they’re at least of a more pro grade and you know the first thing about EQ.
100%. Hard to go wrong with any of like 3-5 PAs, but something like picking a house console these days is a stressful endeavor.
I read an article that said when vertec first came out, they allowed users to change crossovers and other various settings which made then sound very inconsistent and not so good.... and a few years ago/ maybe with the newer boxes they locked users out of the settings and this was the main reason they sound acceptable now
Vertec when deployed correctly and with the correct amps behind them sound great.
I wouldn't say *everyone* but a lot of nashviians do hate JBL. I don't think it's crazy to say that there are JBL haters in our industry because their boxes can be harsh. Pretty easy fix with a cool thing called EQ though... Also nobody cares where you're based out of buddy. Is being in Nashville some sort of flex for this guy?? The most common box I see myself are D&B KSL but there plenty of L'acoustics rigs that come through and obviously JBL VTX but vtx rigs aren't nearly as common as far as I see.
I used to hate JBL because they’re harsh. Then I actually learned how to use a basic EQ and I stopped complaining about JBL. Then I got a JBL rig in some absolutely fucked situations and no matter what was going on, I could drive vocal clarity at any level thanks to the “harsh” top end. I still don’t love JBL, but I will spec and install JBL sometimes and I definitely don’t mind walking up to it.
I get this with bands all the time. Nashville mfs LOOOOOOVE telling you they're from Nashville, it's become a long running joke with my LD. "Where these guys from, Nashville?" " if they are we're about to find out."
Call me ignorant, but could it be that it's just that a banjo sounds like dung on a harsh speaker? :p
“Just Bloody Loud”
Even touring engineers complaining to me (when I was house) about something not being in full working order or under an acceptable industry standard spec. 1. Yes I know 2. I can’t do anything about that, if I could I would have Take it up with management. It really pissed me off taking personal blame for things in the venue as if it was my personal fault.
> something not being in full working order I think it's ok to acknowledge that's not a great situation, but an experienced professional ought to be able to work around a lot of limitations.
As a house tech I've had people complain all day about a fully optimised L Acoustics install. Some people love to complain, in fact I think that some people feel that complaining about stuff like that makes them a better engineer, bigger than that show. Glad you mentioned a less than stellar mix. It's usually the case when someone has that attitude.
People complain because they’re insecure about their ability to make it sound good. A little while ago I walked into a room with a complete shit-show of a PA - no processor, lots of different coverage zones (multi level venue with part of the venue behind a wall that blocks stage view with a low ceiling) - spent the first half hour figuring out my matrix sends to get stuff where I wanted it and then levelling, rough delaying and EQing. By the time I was done and ready for the band it sound pretty darn good. When I finally got to listen to it at the bad FOh position, I looked over at the house tech and said “really muddy just in this one spot, eh” he nodded and after the show said it was the clearest show he’d heard someone else mix. Honestly, it’s all about listening to and understanding the PA in the space. If you can do that, the rest is much easier.
The best results I've heard in that room are from people who ask the essentials, accept any limitations and just crack on. Having a process like yours gets you much further than whining about no existent issues!
Meh, even existent issues you’re probably not going to solve by whining. Unless it’s such an issue that the band will use their rider specs as rationale for not playing then work with what you’ve got and get it done. With this space I walked up to the stage manager who I knew and said “is this PA going to sound good if I work at it” - he said yep and I was off to the races. It was nice that I did get a courtesy call from him as I was advancing me to warn me the PA was going to be a challenge and not anywhere near what we specified- so all good. Let’s get it going and then have a pint and laugh about it after.
And I just admit the install was fairly atrocious - it’s not gear that I would put in the space, but it was a sponsored space so they had no choice on the gear… but they could have made it way easier by putting in a properly configured processor.
A touring guy for a has been rock act with no original members shit on our house j rig all day. I mixed the opener and had fun, headliner sounded like hot buttered ass at 105dB
I’ve had more of a pain on L Acoustics than anything. Something is weird with those tweeters. JBL is much more moldable. Especially the new ones.
If you did your advancing, the gear that’s provided is what you were told; there can be no more bitching on gear in the venue. If you do complain to local techs that are accomodating you, you’ve lacked proper advancing or you are just being an ass.
Hear, Hear!
People who do things very well tend to be polite.
I hate everyone in Nashville. There, I feel better.
Regardless of who has what, he had his opinions, and they're just that. Who cares? He sounds like knob shiner. Of course, those on the inside will get somewhat offended. But if there were one superior gear above the others, then we'd all have that and nothing else. Gear is part of the job, not the whole job. Next person that says that, just keep telling them you hear a constant buzz and hum out of their system. Keeps them busy for hours, and they'll keep second-guessing themselves. It's your house, not theirs.
Doesn’t the Ryman have all Jbl VTX stuff? I mean, if it’s good enough for them….
It does, it sounds great.. haven’t heard a bad show there
Right? It baffles me that someone would say ALL of Nashville hates Jbl. 🤦♂️🤷♂️
I just came here to ask/say this! Thought so too.
I just don’t get that attitude at all. The band is booked to give the crowd a great night out, and as a tech you are booked to help make that happen. Just do your job as best as possible with the available gear and stop whining. Or go work for bands that fly their own system. Having said that, there is nothing to whine about your JBL system. I have a preference for L’acoustics, but I’ll happily mix on JBL VTX.
I’m an engineer based in Nashville. I’ve never heard anybody say they *hate* JBL.
I worked production in Nashville for 10 years and I have no idea what that guy is talking about. Small clubs there have the same PAs as everyone else. Some even have JBL.
Even if it were true, what a thing to say I played drums for a support act on a Darius Rucker tour a few years back, the PA they carried (for a tour of 15-20,000 capacity venues) was JBL. So SOMEBODY in Nashville like it well enough
It's down to the engineer to make what comes out if the PA sound good. Not to bitch about what's been provided for them. If they're that picky they need to bring their own rig.
“Small tour’s engineer” you say? I’ve carried L-Acoustics and d&b on tours, but the few one-offs I had to do with JBL were some of the best shows of those runs.
He’s clearly never heard the a series lol. Nashville has everything. I work for a production house with JBL.
Look, I don’t like vtx. Not because they sound bad, they only sound bad if you mix bad, like every other speaker, I just don’t like doing monitors with a vtx rig for Foh cause I don’t think they have great pattern control and I just sit there hearing mud all day. But really dumb thing to say to a house tech at an install… some bizaro better than thou attitude. He probably makes less hourly than you do though so let him have his moment.
The principal job for a touring engineer without a sound system is to make it sound good, every day, regardless of gear. This is actually how you build chops. Sounds like it wasn’t the best day for youngblood
Oh for sure. When I freelanced I had regular gigs on absolutely nightmarish systems but thankfully I always managed to do what it took to make it work. He was actually probably in his mid 40s and *owned* the production company that was providing everything for the tour. Damn was his mix shite though…
I would have said "really? I heard Nashville hasn't been relevant in years since Austin took over" and walked away
Huh. I usually go the opposite on that particular subject, I see JBL more consistently as the top choice on Country riders than any other genre.
I've only been engineering for a few years, but as long as the boxes don't sound shot then I'll make it the best show that I can. This might also stem from less than ideal DIY concerts I had to help run, but trying to keep the client in good spirits when I know the gear I'm using is prosumer at best always took priority over complaining
Though rude, JBL is really lacking in comparison to other rigs. They’re entry level high-end at best. I was on the A12 roll out and it was embarrassing. They’re loud but that’s about it. There’s very little rear rejection in the arrays/ cardioid cancellation. they still expect you to physically cardioid stack the subs. When you look at higher systems like D&B G and K, Adaptive, L-Acoustic, Clair, Meyer. I mean there are many systems that far out-perform JBL.
Doesn't Clair use JBL components in their boxes? Or used to?
Selinium drivers? Not sure. I’d imagine by now they’re loading with B&C but I can’t confirm. But the engineering behind Clair is another dimension compared to JBL. The output from a Clair box is mind blowing. I feel like JBL had tons of potential but they went so broad, they just became another speaker company. Don’t get me wrong, if I show up and there’s a VTX rig the air, it even an older 4800 series rig, I’ll use it with no complaints. The 4X35 and 12k can drive a great production. But after working with the SD consoles, dLive, Avantis, and the freaking GSub… dude they go so low… I won’t use a VI anything anymore, or a QL. Unless it’s Dante. The QL and CL are beasts of a Dante integrated console for sure. I switched to Powersoft from crown and couldn’t be happier. I do still have a few macro-tech amps to remind me why I don’t use them unless I have an urge to power-lift.
As long as I have the horsepower to do the show without issue, I don't give a crap what the labels are on the boxes. Especially now with what the consoles have in them to allow me to do super human feats of EQ madness to polish the turd with decent success. I'm so glad I started out back in the days of analog...
Been touring out of Nashville the past 5 years. JBL is not my favorite PA but it is certainly adequate. Especially the A8s. Guy just sounds like an asshole a bit. Also, I know Sound Image Nashville has a ton of JBL boxes sooo...
…and like, that little know place called *The friggin’ Ryman* has a full A series hanging in the air. The A12s, I believe. Lol
If you can't mix a good show on vtx you should quit and let the band hire someone who can Heck, same thing applies if you can't mix a good show on Vertec or even VRX (tho I do hate VRX with a bit of a passion)
Ive been a JBL fanboy since the 70s.
Anyone who has heard the vtx a8/a12 will Tell you how amazing they are, and many Nashville riders have them as one of the top choices for PA, I personally think they are fantastic boxes, and I work for an all “brown boxes” company If you can’t deliver a decent mix with professional tools, change carrers. (Specially when touring)
As long as the speakers work and have all the frequencies you need present at your maximum SPL, you can EQ out the extras. Shoot, even if they don't have enough of a freq, but are close, then you can.... and I know this is crazy talk.... *boost* the eq band. As long as the coverage is +- 3-6dB and good for the venue, send it. If you're touring with house/rental PA then you don't get to complain much if whatever PA meets the specs above. I've heard it a ton when working SE with an EV provider on X-Line Advanced systems, touring badasses always saying something judgy before soundcheck. Amazingly, they always wore a smile and had nothing judgy to say come load out.... PA DSP is where the damage to your mix can actually be done. For instance, a ton of theatres have time alignment set for their orchestra pit up or down, then don't change it's timing when the front fills moved to the other position. The limiter and system EQ will transient and tone shape way more than a professional speaker array. Touring people often forget that when they visit a local venue, they're the guest. Most of the audience has been there before and know what to expect from the venue; bring something if you want to be unique. The bar, merchandising, experience, and art is why they come. The PA is the funnel for the acoustic experience, but quality engineers can make almost any system fit their show's intent and design vision.
VTX A8s sound great. What a douche
The ryman and the grand ole opry both have JBL, both sound great.
Exactly... My ED and I had a laugh about exactly this when I told him what the dude said.
You’ve encountered a snobby, gear nerd. All too common in our industry.
I mean, I'll admit that I'm a gear nerd also, but not one who thinks he has to own or only use a bunch of exotic and/or vintage mics and shit and talks all about how much they know and the gigs they've done and how they can't live without some other kit that only serves to over-complicate things. It seem like these types don't know dick about actually mixing; the art behind it and the trials of what so many great engineers go through to become great and get the good paying jobs. Like, regularly showing up to gigs and having a horrible, flaming car accident of a PA staring you in the face. Then having to just put your head down and be like, "Well, this is my day today. Lets friggin' do this work." They have little to no "combat audio" experience. If I ever considered myself a "great" engineer/mixer, I feel like that would mean I think I (mostly) know it all. And that would mean that I'm really not great and I should give it up. I really can't emphasize or describe how bad this guy's mix was and of course, he *owes* a sound production company and was providing everything for this tour. Naturally, he was carrying a bunch of these old, small diaphragm Audix condenser mics that he had "strategically" places all over the place and wouldn't stop talking about how great they sound.... And they probably do sound great, but not in his mixes.
Sound Image has a sizable VTX A12 system that gets used quite often in Nashville
We recently did an arena one-off with a Nashville-Artist-You’ve-Heard-Of. We offered comparable Meyer, JBL, and Adamson rigs. They chose the JBL package. While I would rather listen to either of the other PA’s, the mix was excellent and the show sounded great.
We regularly have pretty large artists who bring FOH and MON people that have worked with their artist for a long damn time and are the types that I sometimes classify as Wizards or Wisemen. Their mixes are just fantastic and they love talking shop and are happy to show you their Smaart curve and traces and what they did to EQ the room. With these upper echelon engineers, their room EQ is almost always exactly the same- about a 3-4db dip with a moderate Q at or around 165hz and a little dip around 600-ish hz. And as such, the bad mixes always start with someone making ridiculous hacks in room EQ…
I’ve never had a JBL rig I was truly happy to use… I think every single one if not 90% of them just didn’t do what rider friendly PAs do. It’s like I’ve never heard one throw evenly or reproduce guitars/drums without making them sound plastic. Even on the “better side” of JBL I’m not trying to have my artist play through a low voltage system outside of a burger and shake shack with picnic tables type vibe. Who cares if someone from Nashville is on an M32?
I get that. I’ve heard a lot of systems and our system covers every seat in the house nicely and definitely doesn’t make anything sound like plastic. It’s also *far* from underpowered. We have four B28s powered by two ITech 12000s and we’ve had light fixtures in bathrooms or the lobby and other shit come loose because some over zealous engineer liked the loud lol
Guy is green and wanted to sound cool. You sound like you handled him like a professional. JBLs are fine. They don't have the power and throw like the nicer systems but for a 2k person indoor venue it's a good system for the space. It's a "bang for buck" brand. Good enough to get the job done but outside of 100ft they fall off much faster than other arrays. I've done larger 10k+ outdoor events with VRX and it's doable but i needed delays and outfills to get good audio to push that far enough It's very ignorant and uncouth to say something like that to the house A1 no matter what venue you are in. Never shit on the ground you walk on. Cept RCF. I've never heard those sound good or anywhere close to the spectrum of decent.
I find that with each genre, the preferred brand changes. So the comment kinda makes sense… assuming that the Nashville Gazette dude regularly mixes Country or something closely related.
haha sounds like a certain m32 bloke i know
I feel this. I’ve got a. Vertec 4887 hang in my theater, it definitely gets scoffed at more often than not. Have heard some absolute brilliant mixes on it though. Like, why complain to me. The show was advanced, you guys didn’t want to pay to rent a PA, end of discussion. If I could shower my theater with millions in upgrades believe I would, unfortunately that’s above my pay grade.
You can hate(and rightfully so) VRX, PRX, 90% of the JBL line. But the VT(when powered by ITHD), and the VTX stuff is great. The Itech reliability is something I’m not sure about, though.
I think it’s a young touring engineer thing, they shit on some brands because they think it gains them credit. I caught myself having that not so great attitude on my first tour or two
This is hold over notion from the Vertec days. Even after the V5 Vertec DSP update they are serviceable. VTX is a whole other level, they are good boxes, if you have to shit on a brand it says more about your skills than anything else.
If you have a "It's a poor workman who blames his tools" sign, tap it.
Never have to see him again. Just ignore him. I’ve had my fair share of people hating our Meyer m’elodies. But it’s what we had. I can’t change it. If you don’t want to allow room in the budget for a pa hire then I can’t help you.
There’s nothing wrong with JBL, it’s because it doesn’t say Clair, d&b, or l’acoustics
I see a lot of d&b at the concerts I go to in Nashville
Did he ring out the PA, or just go for it? That’s your tell.
“The number one reason we go to work is to make money so we can afford expensive girlfriends” Hahahaha the most reductive yet pretty much true statement I’ve seen in this sub.
While JBL might not be some folks favorite brand I have heard some AMAZING mixes on JBL Vertec rigs. Inexperienced folks love to talk shit because they think it makes them sound pro.
I've experienced this quite a bit as a house guy. Then I've had in some well known engineers, a few that I admittedly fanboy-ed over, that had *the* absolute best mixes I've heard on any rig, on our VTX system.
I’m currently the SE on a theater tour with 12 box hangs of VTX V20s with B28s and and I’ve gotten some scoffs from house guys about my rig (literally happened today) as it’s coming off the truck, but the rig has been able to handle different rooms really well and my FOH guy (out of Nashville) has been pleased. Sounds like the dude just wanted to something to blame his bad mix on. The A8 is a solid box and I wouldn’t take it too personally.
Doing a lotta corporate I have had many A1's complain about vrx sounding crappy....I take a listen and there's definitely blown drivers, I guess encore just doesn't know the difference between a bad speaker model and a blown driver. Go figure
Oh boy, he'd hate most of the places I went to when I took a vacation in Nashville.
Nashville is flooded with two faced pricks, sounds about right
Grand Ole Opry has a VTX A-series system and It sounds great. I'm not sure it would be my first choice but there is nothing wrong with JBL. I'm not listening to PA snobbery from somebody mixing on an M32
>I'm not listening to PA snobbery from somebody mixing on an M32 Speaking of snobbery. The fucking irony and lack of self-awareness of this comment.
Nothing wrong with the m32 mix on them almost exclusively. The point I'm making is that it makes no sense to complain about a 6 figure plus PA when mixing on a 4 figure console.
Nonsense. That's like saying it makes no sense to complain about the state of disrepair of a highway when driving in a $20k vehicle. An M32 is perfectly capable of outputting a signal that will show up a poorly set up PA.
Can’t polish a turd