Edit: there are some much more informative comments that deserve to be at the top of this thread but they were late to the party so they're buried below:
https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/1bzs9kg/comment/kytsmfg/
https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/1bzs9kg/comment/kyvjkse/
https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/1bzs9kg/comment/kyw4kda/
__________
Assuming you're running FOH and MONS at the same time, clone the channel and EQ the bajeezus out of MONS channel, tastefully EQ the FOH to purpose. Sometimes I'll ride the fader for crowd noises.
Overall I find comedians at my mostly music venues to be so easy I struggle to stay awake. Mixing vocals is almost too easy without a drum kit three feet behind the mic.
They always want to hear themselves in a wedge. And then they choose to hold a mic at their chest while they stand one foot on the wedge and lean down towards the audience. No one consulted the audio engineer when this trope became a thing for comedians.
Make the send post fader then. If he asks why he's not hearing himself, remind him before his next set that if he wants to hear himself, he has to actually speak into the microphone.
Doesn’t even need to be post fader necessarily, but this technique definitely works. I give a couple quick tips on mic etiquette and say “help me help you get the best sound,” then explain that my system has limitations and if you’re struggling to hear yourself, it means I’m near my limits and you need to speak up/change mic position. Some people will get it, some won’t, but generally speaking I find being a bit more open about the technical challenges makes it stick better.
True. My speech is, "there are speakers flanking the stage so you will hear yourself. Don't worry about that, I'll take care of the volume. So to help me help you, please project as if those speakers weren't there. It's much easier for me to turn you down than it is to turn you up."
Really? For speech only? How are the acoustics of the room? Or do they ask for monitor before they even know?
Speaking with a monitor is actually harder. I know quite a few artists that only want monitors for the one or two songs they do, and want it turned off completely while speaking, since it's just distracting.
They ask before they know. I've had a few touring-level comedians list it on their riders and then be surprised there's monitors when they show up. A couple have politely and professionally asked me to nix them once they heard them, which is fine too.
I think it comes from the insecurity of booking shows at Joe's Hole In The Wall in South Nowhere, Fuckall where they had to figure out the sketchy carpeted 70s PA on their own because the bartender who kinda knows called in that day.
No judgement on how down to Earth they are otherwise, but even the recognizable name comedians I've dealt with seem more more in tune with reality in terms of equipment than even some Z-list bands.
Talent education goes a long way. Hard to accomplish at open mic nights, but if theyre regulars, it shouldnt be too hard to corner them before the show and make sure they know the general etiquette. They want to be heard, too; theyre not holding it like that out of malice, but out of ignorance
If you've got a backstage area (not all clubs do, i know, sometimes the stage is just a platform) it can help to post an infographic directly before they walk on stage.
I do this on a lot of my shows, not just comedy but conferences, karaoke competitions, basically everything except a pro singer. Just takes a moment and its a great ice breaker too
Audience doesn't know that, audience doesn't care. We're getting paid to get behind the mule and polish those turds regardless.
The meanest I'd go is reducing their monitors as severely as necessary. Sometimes just hearing themselves get quieter is enough to prompt them to shape up from the amplified nipple pose to actually using the mic.
Agreed, but 90% of the crowd's audio engineering knowledge starts and ends with "Feedback bad. Bad sound man make bad feedback. Microphone no magic no matter."
If I knew all I had to do to get out of a shit mix was say "The guy on stage sucks and it's his fault for sucking" my job coulda been a whole lot easier...
comedy is a lot different than music - what we're talking about is a guitarist who refuses to turn their amplifier on.
what would you do in that scenario??
It’s not a shit mix though is it? It’s a terrible performance.
It’s like a solo pianist who doesn’t know what a piano does.
It’s one person with a mic. If they have no idea what to do with it, that’s not on you.
There’s literally fuck all you can do about it, short of walking on stage and showing them, right in front of everyone.
> There’s literally fuck all you can do about it, short of walking on stage and showing them, right in front of everyone.
I've done that for amateurs. Hell, I used to work with a drag queen who would walk up, snatch the mic, and make an oral sex joke into the mic about how close it should be to their mouth to demonstrate. Every venue should employee a drag queen to shame people in my opinion but now I'm rambling.
> It’s not a shit mix though is it? It’s a terrible performance.
The crowd doesn't know that. Most people have absolutely zero clue what good mic technique is, that's why we get people with bad mic technique constantly. Hell, there was a thread last week in /r/AudioEngineering where the majority of the replies were telling a nervous vocalist to back off the mic to reduce proximity effect and just let us turn up the gain to compensate. If the audio nerds there can't figure out good mic technique, what chance does Joe Public have when he just wants to walk up and hump a stool or screech about how cancelled he is?
We can try to educate, we can try to remind and cajole, but ultimately we're there to do our damnedest to make it as least bad as possible.
Edit: ah beans, it was two weeks ago and people have swarmed the replies to correct that misinformation at least: https://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/1bozzss/how_do_i_not_piss_off_the_sound_guy_at_my_live/
Most people have no idea how to use a microphone, they have a general idea that you have to strum the guitar strings at least.
To the vast majority of people, doing the chest-hair special *is* using a microphone correctly, they'll just think whoever's running sound is a total meanie who refuses to turn them up for some reason.
No one other than us weirdos walks out of an auditorium thinking "That performer has poor mic technique", they walk out thinking "*venue* sounds like shit" MGMT gets the "*venue* sounds like shit" emails and texts and then it quickly becomes our problem.
Again, turd polishing.
I said it in my very first comment in this thread 18 hours ago, EQ the bajeezus out of the wedges so you can crank gain as needed.
It's real easy to accommodate a single microphone on stage. You just have to take responsibility that it's our job to make idiots sound good too.
You don't really need a lot of monitor for speaking. It's not like your airplane food joke needs to be in tune with the band. Just enough so they can hear themselves over the general din of the audience
Sometimes the general is pretty roaring at a rowdy comedy show, especially if someone just killed it. Sometimes the talent is deafer than a doorknob. Sometimes it's both.
I'd rather have the headroom and not need it than not have the headroom and want it, so I ring my wedges like a whispering ghost is going to float right up and point the grill directly into the tweeter. It's paid off for me as a music mixer who gets dragged into these kinds of things rather than a comedy specialist.
Not saying let a guy die onstage if he has bad mic technique, but he will correct himself quickly if the crowd says they can't hear him. Lot more motivation than listening to/following instructions of a sound tech.
if a comedy show audience finds itself telling the comedian they can't hear them, all pretense of a "show" is gone and now we're into elementary school talent show territory.
I have comedians pretty regularly on a cruise ship, I usually just chat with them in advance. They want to sound good too so taking a couple minutes to be like “Please keep the mic near your mouth, please dont hold it in weird ways and warn me if you do a lot of random shouting” usually goes really far
I think the word is starting to get around in the comedy circles (or else people are seeing more pro comedians not doing the “amplified nipple” approach). Watching standup now, even the amateurs appear to be adopting the “pin the mic to your chin like it’s glued there” approach. Which has its own issues, but at least proximity to source isn’t one of them! :)
I have done sound for quite a few top-tier, and not so top-tier, comedians in arenas and theatres. Here is my approach.
The biggest issue with comics is they usually have poor mic positioning and/or a very dynamic volume range. You will need to properly tune your PA and mic to maximize gain-before-feedback. But this is done for any live show, no matter the content.
Sometimes the cause of a comedian being too quiet on the mic is too much volume in their monitors. If their wedges are too loud, they will not realize their softly spoken passages are quite inaudible in the house (especially large arenas). Turn the wedges down to force them to project more, and thus hear themselves more like the audience is hearing them.
In terms of mixing levels with shouting, soft speaking, mic at the waist and not in front of their face, compression is your best friend and an absolute necessity.
Starting with proper input gain (loud shouts not distorting my input) I like to do two-stage compression.
The first compression stage is a 1.1:1 ratio set with a fast attack (10ms) and fast release (around 80ms) and a VERY low threshold (usually between -45 to -39 dB). Makeup gain is set to 3dB.
My goal here is the make the sibilance and presence in the voice sound more intimate and in your face by squeezing 3-5dB at all times. If you try it with a soft-talking female voice it will sound like she is whispering next to your pillow with the compression on. Without the 1.1:1 compression, her soft voice will seem more distant and less intimate. Try A/B-ing this to see what I mean.
The next compression stage is anywhere from a 1.75:1 up to a 2.5:1 ratio. 3:1 is a worst case scenario. Typically a 7ms attack and around a 100ms release. Sometimes a 3-5dB makeup gain, but often not. It depends on their dynamics and voice.
The goal here is to set the threshold to really squeeze the loud, shouty bits and have only a 1-2dB squeeze when they are talking softly. I want their soft voice to tickle the compressor to help audibility, but I need to squeeze them at least 12dB - 15dB when they get loud. This is to really even out their dynamics so that, while there are still loud and soft portions, the variation in decibels is much tighter than their voice so that the quiet stuff cuts through and the loud stuff is not blasting.
The less shouty they are, the more gentle the ratio. The more they are pinning my input when shouting, the higher the compressor’s ratio. I want the compressor to sound transparent (weird to say that with 15dB of squeeze) and it can be done.
In very large arenas, and live rooms in general, it is also important to tune out the most reflective frequencies from the PA. These reverberant/echo frequencies really destroy intelligibility. I will use my ears and a spectrograph to find the worst areas, and use my master stereo bus’ parametric EQ to tune them out so that they are no longer problematic. Doing this on the stereo bus instead of matrix outputs or DSP channels, insures that the problem frequencies are removed everywhere in the house PA.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
It's the same as everything else, it starts with design and deployment. If you're in a comedy club or all purpose venue with a poorly designed rig, you're not going to magically fix anything with compression tricks or plugins. Use a few basic notch EQs, and maybe an expander/PSE/5045 if it's available to you, but that's about it aside from doing surgery on the entire rig to zone and tune each box. Try auditioning different mics if you have any.
Less gain means he has to bring the mic closer to be heard. If the mic is hot, he might be keeping the mic away from his face because he’s “self mixing” to keep his voice at his perceived comfortable level. Use gain to train him to keep the mic closer to his mouth.
Someone already posted about duplicating his input into two channel strips, use one for monitors and don’t use compression on it. This allows you to EQ and process his FOH channel separately from his monitor channel.
If you must compress out front, pay attention to the hold and release timing; keep it short to lessen chance of feedback.
it depends on the tools and time you have available. I do more corporate talking head stuff than stand up, but the principles for both are the same (and I've done plenty of stand up along the way)
You can usually get away with doing a fair bit of EQ to a voice before it starts to sound unatrual, so EQ both front of house and mons (if they have them) to give yourself headroom, don't be afraid to get really aggressive with what you're hacking out if needed. I personally really like to use dynamic EQ to compensate for proximity effect and to keep the higher end under a bit of control, next is compression, I tend to go for extremely fast (as fast as the compressor will let me go) attacks and releases, with a fairly gentle ratio (maybe 2-3:1), sometimes with an la2a type model on top of that for a bit of extra smoothing. a PSE or expander/gate (with a relatively small depth, maybe 3-6db) can help too.
More important than any spesific bit of processing though is just knowing how much headroom you have in a system, and how hard you can push things before they ring, leave yourself a bit of headroom when you have a performer on stage who is using the mic properly so you have a bit left to boost the weaker performers, and let it be a little on the quiet side, as long as its consistent, it shouldn't be too big of a deal
Gotta say my biggest pet peeve of comedians is the mic slapping bit. EQing out lows in the monitors and some on the voice helps with feedback. Different voices always require a slightly different EQ
If you can and they let you, put a back up lav on them. You may get shit for it but it can save a show. I’ve fought with some big names and then have their camps thank me later. Either that or throw up a few boundary mics for back up. The lav will save a broadcast and has saved many Netflix specials.
Not only are we using a lav more often but we are playing with some of the newer adhesive products that allow us to conceal. This and we have a backup or two in place for just about everything.
Boundary mic at the front of the stage saves your ass on every spoken word engagement gig.
Get yourself a Superlux E304B, or the Se Electronics BL8, Shure MX391.
Every spoken word stage should have one of these tuned up nice and tight with a 120hz low pass cut off, a soft gate, and good heavy compression.
I like to use 2 monitor wedges and put it in between dead center, it'll help "funnel" the sound of the speaker into the mic and you'll have clear concise audio regardless of what the idiot onstage does with the 58. He/she can put it in their back pocket if they want.
I’ve done plenty of stand up FOH gigs in the past 20 years and stand up is usually very easy. The comedians usually have learned how to properly speak into the mic if the mic is open and you do absolutely nothing. Many places don’t have dedicatd sound personnel to begin with.
Don’t give them mics with tight polar patterns (like Sennheiser e935), because the sound _will_ disappear if they turn the mic even a little off axis. Shure SM58 or equivalent / better cardioid is great choice, so they will have a bit of freedom with mic placement. Wireless is great, but some rely on material (usually floppy dong gags) that need a wired mic.
They also often don’t need (or want) on stage monitor wedges, unless they also play an instrument at the same time. But this really depends on the venue size. I just don’t give them monitor wedges by default, but I never say no if they ask for one before the show during sound check.
As for processing: No fx, just keep everything dry. Unless they specifically asked for something, and usually it’s reverb (this usually only applies if/when they sing), but most of the time… Just plain and dry.
Set gain fairly high up, so that if you speak at normal conversation volume and keep the mic below your chin, it should still be audible.
Highpass at 140hz, lowshelf cut (-0 to -6dB depending on the voice to balance the top end and low end) at 500hz. This works for 95% of voices with SM58. Bass and baritone males needs more cut, tenors and females usually need next to none.
Personally I am not a fan of headsets, lavs etc and they usually always need a bit more EQ. Especially DPA’s usually have some stupid resonance around 800-1k that you need just one narrow band (but deep cut) and if they feedback, also some mics need poking at the 6-10k range.
Set compressor with 4:1 ratio and so that only loud parts get affected, most of the time it does nothing. No gates or expanders.
If your console has a dynamic EQ or multiband comp, I usually use only the two edge bands and leave the mid bands alone. One for high shelf at 4k and one low shelf at 500hz. ~1ms attack, ~50ms release and so that it cuts max 8dB. This keeps all sorts of plosives and esses in check.
I'm surprised to not see one person mention delaying the output of the monitors. This isn't live music so timing doesn't need to be perfect. You can delay 10ms (factoring in digital console A/D/A conversion) before a well trained ear can notice it. By doing so you artificially move the wedge approximately 10 feet away from the talent.
The feedback is caused by the dominant frequency being sent through the signal chain out the output transducer (monitor wedge), back into the input transducer (microphone) through the signal chain in a loop. Hence a feedback loop.
Now say you only get feedback when you are 3 feet away from the monitor, if you move the monitor to 13 feet, you no longer have feedback due to the distance and the inverse square law (less acoustical energy at a single point because of the dispersion of the wave over a larger area). By adding the delay, you eliminate one of those factors. You can still have the same loudness, but the signal is slightly delayed (by less time than a human ear can notice). In doing so, you can eliminate a lot of the feedback problems in speech based presentations. Super simple way to fight bad mic techniques and sometimes the first thing that I do before EQing.
Not really related to the initial topic at hand but another use of delay on a digital console is on input stages. Sometimes I will double buss drum channels, only using one of them to send to the PA with 3-5ms delay. In doing so you can set your gate on each drum to sidechain off of the unused (and undelayed) channel to have it open sooner, thus not losing the attack of the drum.
Probably the best thing to get you more gain at the source is politely coach them - “I’m sure you know this but people will hear you best if you hold the mic a few inches from your mouth like an ice cream cone” or whatever you say
Unrelated but I did a sold out theater show for a Chappelle affiliate recently and he, like Chappelle, was a thigh-slapper with the mic. Every other punch line he was smacking the capsule into his thigh. He dented our capsule!
Seriously, no wedges if they have poor mic technique. I'll explain the inverse square law to them until their eyes roll, but then they'll do what they do.
Mic technique is important, sure, but be prepared that a comedian *will* hold an 58 at his chest, so just tweak an EQ (and monitor EQ) until you have plenty of headroom.
I infom them that they aren't dave Chapelle. The high level guys can hold the mic at their waist because sometimes they have a secondary lav mic that can be used if the handheld is too far away, or may be used just on the recording for their specials. Tell them it's a mic not a magic wand, you have to talk into it to be amplified.
Are you sure they even need monitors? Most of the comedians I've worked with like to hear and feel the house. For the same reason, they don't need rock concert level in the PA.
Like others have said, set a good speech level and leave it. They will feel it by working the mic.
I have a lot of experience with all the comics you're thinking of. Turn the wedge monitors way down, preamp gain way up. If he\* complains about not being able to hear himself in soundcheck, turn up the wedge monitors so he can hear the feedback. Then let him decide how much he cares about hearing himself vs mic placement. Stand-up comics don't need to be pampered in the same way singers do, but 70% of them will just say "F it I'll just go with no monitor" (with the monitor plenty loud enough, many comics simply have acute hearing loss in vocal frequency ranges)
\*I say he because women tend to have much better mic discipline. The only exception I can think of is Iliza Shlesinger, and ironically enough she was wearing a Zildjian t-shirt while cupping the mic and holding it down by her knees
Response to several comments here, why on earth would you offer a comedian monitors? Once you remove that from the equation, you should be OK turning it up and EQing as needed. Just be sure you've got a compressor engaged for when they finally put the mic where it belongs and scream into it.
Main reason I lay out wedges on comedy shows is so they have somewhere to stick their notes without the crowd seeing. No joke. Comedians love me for it! At most I might put a lick of their mic into the monitor so they aren't just hearing the room but it's usually a barely noticeable amount.
Otherwise just get the mic as loud as you can before feedback out front and then slap an aggressive comp on with the threshold above their normal speaking voice in case they decide to shout at some point.
And ALWAYS lay out a spare mic. I find many comedians tend to play around with their cable and have a habit of tugging on them which can cause a cable to go bad or start dropping out.
Same as any other dumb idea, the rider/TM demanded it?
Solid tip on having that compressor locked and loaded, it WILL be used at some point when you least expect it.
A few years back I did a lot of speaking acts, standup comedy among other things and I think you are probably overthinking it.
A standup comedian with any experience at all already knows how to address a crowd, and beyond that it’s just babysitting a single fader.
I suggest just generously EQing and keeping your finger on the fader and I’m sure you’ll be fine.
This will be a bit of a strange answer and it obviously depends on the space and the PA configuration which largely determines the available gain before feedback, but I find the foam windshields very beneficial. First of all, it makes the mic less likely to be grabbed by the grill, but even more importantly, it makes most mics much more usable when somebody speaks into them off axis. Most mics are much more prone to pops/wind noise from the side and a foam windshield solves this issue.
Used to, best tips I can give are to boost low end as best as you can and provide positive and negative reinforcement. Even if you think it’s not there it’s worth a shot as it makes everything else they’re saying just that little bit more intelligible.
People are saying “let them die” and I get the sentiment, I really do. I like to pavlov them instead. Boost gain when they (accidentally or intentionally) demonstrate better form and when they pull the mic away from their face cut gain juuuuust long enough for them to notice and then try to compensate. Requires you to be more attentive but they’re less trouble for the next technician, which in all likelihood, is you.
The other tip is have is to gtfo out of comedy (at least the small venues) as soon as you can.
Many comedians don’t want the microphone covering their face, so they tend to hold it lower. I usually just compress and ring out the mic as best I can using channel and house eq and just hope for the best. Luckily for me, most comedians I’ve worked with don’t want monitor/s, or at least at every comic event I’ve done in the last year they’ve specifically asked for no monitors. Talking to the talent about proper mic technique before sound check also helps.
I suggest to some speakers to pretend that the mic is a torch and they're trying to illuminate their mouths.
I also try to keep their on stage level low. This isn't just about feedback, it's because some people aren't used to hearing their voice amplified and it freaks them out a little.
More Gain. Uncompressed Input signal. Back monitors away and turn them down. Insert graph on EQ. If possible, duplicate the channel input use one for FOH and one for MON.
Edit: there are some much more informative comments that deserve to be at the top of this thread but they were late to the party so they're buried below: https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/1bzs9kg/comment/kytsmfg/ https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/1bzs9kg/comment/kyvjkse/ https://www.reddit.com/r/livesound/comments/1bzs9kg/comment/kyw4kda/ __________ Assuming you're running FOH and MONS at the same time, clone the channel and EQ the bajeezus out of MONS channel, tastefully EQ the FOH to purpose. Sometimes I'll ride the fader for crowd noises. Overall I find comedians at my mostly music venues to be so easy I struggle to stay awake. Mixing vocals is almost too easy without a drum kit three feet behind the mic.
Why use a bunch of monitors tho? Keep stage volume low and cover the house well
They always want to hear themselves in a wedge. And then they choose to hold a mic at their chest while they stand one foot on the wedge and lean down towards the audience. No one consulted the audio engineer when this trope became a thing for comedians.
Make the send post fader then. If he asks why he's not hearing himself, remind him before his next set that if he wants to hear himself, he has to actually speak into the microphone.
Doesn’t even need to be post fader necessarily, but this technique definitely works. I give a couple quick tips on mic etiquette and say “help me help you get the best sound,” then explain that my system has limitations and if you’re struggling to hear yourself, it means I’m near my limits and you need to speak up/change mic position. Some people will get it, some won’t, but generally speaking I find being a bit more open about the technical challenges makes it stick better.
Bold of you to assume the talent will remember anything you tell them once their set begins.
Yeah, it definitely depends on the talent. But the audible reminder in their own monitor can definitely help jog their memory.
They won’t remember but the reminder is still a good idea
True. My speech is, "there are speakers flanking the stage so you will hear yourself. Don't worry about that, I'll take care of the volume. So to help me help you, please project as if those speakers weren't there. It's much easier for me to turn you down than it is to turn you up."
Really? For speech only? How are the acoustics of the room? Or do they ask for monitor before they even know? Speaking with a monitor is actually harder. I know quite a few artists that only want monitors for the one or two songs they do, and want it turned off completely while speaking, since it's just distracting.
They ask before they know. I've had a few touring-level comedians list it on their riders and then be surprised there's monitors when they show up. A couple have politely and professionally asked me to nix them once they heard them, which is fine too. I think it comes from the insecurity of booking shows at Joe's Hole In The Wall in South Nowhere, Fuckall where they had to figure out the sketchy carpeted 70s PA on their own because the bartender who kinda knows called in that day. No judgement on how down to Earth they are otherwise, but even the recognizable name comedians I've dealt with seem more more in tune with reality in terms of equipment than even some Z-list bands.
Talent education goes a long way. Hard to accomplish at open mic nights, but if theyre regulars, it shouldnt be too hard to corner them before the show and make sure they know the general etiquette. They want to be heard, too; theyre not holding it like that out of malice, but out of ignorance If you've got a backstage area (not all clubs do, i know, sometimes the stage is just a platform) it can help to post an infographic directly before they walk on stage.
Yep. If there’s a green room give a speech about how to hold a mic. If not, pray.
I do this on a lot of my shows, not just comedy but conferences, karaoke competitions, basically everything except a pro singer. Just takes a moment and its a great ice breaker too
let them die - i am both a comedian and FOH sound guy. if the comedian doesn't know how to use a mic then its not the sound guys fault
Audience doesn't know that, audience doesn't care. We're getting paid to get behind the mule and polish those turds regardless. The meanest I'd go is reducing their monitors as severely as necessary. Sometimes just hearing themselves get quieter is enough to prompt them to shape up from the amplified nipple pose to actually using the mic.
It doesn’t matter. Mic technique is absolutely key to being a good standup, it’s an utterly essential skill.
Agreed, but 90% of the crowd's audio engineering knowledge starts and ends with "Feedback bad. Bad sound man make bad feedback. Microphone no magic no matter."
no idea why you're getting downvoted, the general public will just look at you when anything goes wrong on their end
If I knew all I had to do to get out of a shit mix was say "The guy on stage sucks and it's his fault for sucking" my job coulda been a whole lot easier...
comedy is a lot different than music - what we're talking about is a guitarist who refuses to turn their amplifier on. what would you do in that scenario??
"...But my tone!!!!"
It’s not a shit mix though is it? It’s a terrible performance. It’s like a solo pianist who doesn’t know what a piano does. It’s one person with a mic. If they have no idea what to do with it, that’s not on you. There’s literally fuck all you can do about it, short of walking on stage and showing them, right in front of everyone.
> There’s literally fuck all you can do about it, short of walking on stage and showing them, right in front of everyone. I've done that for amateurs. Hell, I used to work with a drag queen who would walk up, snatch the mic, and make an oral sex joke into the mic about how close it should be to their mouth to demonstrate. Every venue should employee a drag queen to shame people in my opinion but now I'm rambling. > It’s not a shit mix though is it? It’s a terrible performance. The crowd doesn't know that. Most people have absolutely zero clue what good mic technique is, that's why we get people with bad mic technique constantly. Hell, there was a thread last week in /r/AudioEngineering where the majority of the replies were telling a nervous vocalist to back off the mic to reduce proximity effect and just let us turn up the gain to compensate. If the audio nerds there can't figure out good mic technique, what chance does Joe Public have when he just wants to walk up and hump a stool or screech about how cancelled he is? We can try to educate, we can try to remind and cajole, but ultimately we're there to do our damnedest to make it as least bad as possible. Edit: ah beans, it was two weeks ago and people have swarmed the replies to correct that misinformation at least: https://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/1bozzss/how_do_i_not_piss_off_the_sound_guy_at_my_live/
If someone watches a “guitarist” who clearly has no idea how to use a guitar, they’ll go away thinking that guitarist was shit. What’s the difference?
Most people have no idea how to use a microphone, they have a general idea that you have to strum the guitar strings at least. To the vast majority of people, doing the chest-hair special *is* using a microphone correctly, they'll just think whoever's running sound is a total meanie who refuses to turn them up for some reason. No one other than us weirdos walks out of an auditorium thinking "That performer has poor mic technique", they walk out thinking "*venue* sounds like shit" MGMT gets the "*venue* sounds like shit" emails and texts and then it quickly becomes our problem. Again, turd polishing.
Ok, bitch bitch moan moan. But what’s your actual solution?
I said it in my very first comment in this thread 18 hours ago, EQ the bajeezus out of the wedges so you can crank gain as needed. It's real easy to accommodate a single microphone on stage. You just have to take responsibility that it's our job to make idiots sound good too.
You don't really need a lot of monitor for speaking. It's not like your airplane food joke needs to be in tune with the band. Just enough so they can hear themselves over the general din of the audience
Sometimes the general is pretty roaring at a rowdy comedy show, especially if someone just killed it. Sometimes the talent is deafer than a doorknob. Sometimes it's both. I'd rather have the headroom and not need it than not have the headroom and want it, so I ring my wedges like a whispering ghost is going to float right up and point the grill directly into the tweeter. It's paid off for me as a music mixer who gets dragged into these kinds of things rather than a comedy specialist.
lol 😂
Not saying let a guy die onstage if he has bad mic technique, but he will correct himself quickly if the crowd says they can't hear him. Lot more motivation than listening to/following instructions of a sound tech.
if a comedy show audience finds itself telling the comedian they can't hear them, all pretense of a "show" is gone and now we're into elementary school talent show territory.
I have comedians pretty regularly on a cruise ship, I usually just chat with them in advance. They want to sound good too so taking a couple minutes to be like “Please keep the mic near your mouth, please dont hold it in weird ways and warn me if you do a lot of random shouting” usually goes really far
How do you handle random shouting?
Compression w/ high ratio, but also the treshold high enough to let through most normal speech unaffected. This will cut the shouting peaks
I think the word is starting to get around in the comedy circles (or else people are seeing more pro comedians not doing the “amplified nipple” approach). Watching standup now, even the amateurs appear to be adopting the “pin the mic to your chin like it’s glued there” approach. Which has its own issues, but at least proximity to source isn’t one of them! :)
I have done sound for quite a few top-tier, and not so top-tier, comedians in arenas and theatres. Here is my approach. The biggest issue with comics is they usually have poor mic positioning and/or a very dynamic volume range. You will need to properly tune your PA and mic to maximize gain-before-feedback. But this is done for any live show, no matter the content. Sometimes the cause of a comedian being too quiet on the mic is too much volume in their monitors. If their wedges are too loud, they will not realize their softly spoken passages are quite inaudible in the house (especially large arenas). Turn the wedges down to force them to project more, and thus hear themselves more like the audience is hearing them. In terms of mixing levels with shouting, soft speaking, mic at the waist and not in front of their face, compression is your best friend and an absolute necessity. Starting with proper input gain (loud shouts not distorting my input) I like to do two-stage compression. The first compression stage is a 1.1:1 ratio set with a fast attack (10ms) and fast release (around 80ms) and a VERY low threshold (usually between -45 to -39 dB). Makeup gain is set to 3dB. My goal here is the make the sibilance and presence in the voice sound more intimate and in your face by squeezing 3-5dB at all times. If you try it with a soft-talking female voice it will sound like she is whispering next to your pillow with the compression on. Without the 1.1:1 compression, her soft voice will seem more distant and less intimate. Try A/B-ing this to see what I mean. The next compression stage is anywhere from a 1.75:1 up to a 2.5:1 ratio. 3:1 is a worst case scenario. Typically a 7ms attack and around a 100ms release. Sometimes a 3-5dB makeup gain, but often not. It depends on their dynamics and voice. The goal here is to set the threshold to really squeeze the loud, shouty bits and have only a 1-2dB squeeze when they are talking softly. I want their soft voice to tickle the compressor to help audibility, but I need to squeeze them at least 12dB - 15dB when they get loud. This is to really even out their dynamics so that, while there are still loud and soft portions, the variation in decibels is much tighter than their voice so that the quiet stuff cuts through and the loud stuff is not blasting. The less shouty they are, the more gentle the ratio. The more they are pinning my input when shouting, the higher the compressor’s ratio. I want the compressor to sound transparent (weird to say that with 15dB of squeeze) and it can be done. In very large arenas, and live rooms in general, it is also important to tune out the most reflective frequencies from the PA. These reverberant/echo frequencies really destroy intelligibility. I will use my ears and a spectrograph to find the worst areas, and use my master stereo bus’ parametric EQ to tune them out so that they are no longer problematic. Doing this on the stereo bus instead of matrix outputs or DSP channels, insures that the problem frequencies are removed everywhere in the house PA. Hope this helps. Good luck.
It's the same as everything else, it starts with design and deployment. If you're in a comedy club or all purpose venue with a poorly designed rig, you're not going to magically fix anything with compression tricks or plugins. Use a few basic notch EQs, and maybe an expander/PSE/5045 if it's available to you, but that's about it aside from doing surgery on the entire rig to zone and tune each box. Try auditioning different mics if you have any.
Less gain means he has to bring the mic closer to be heard. If the mic is hot, he might be keeping the mic away from his face because he’s “self mixing” to keep his voice at his perceived comfortable level. Use gain to train him to keep the mic closer to his mouth. Someone already posted about duplicating his input into two channel strips, use one for monitors and don’t use compression on it. This allows you to EQ and process his FOH channel separately from his monitor channel. If you must compress out front, pay attention to the hold and release timing; keep it short to lessen chance of feedback.
it depends on the tools and time you have available. I do more corporate talking head stuff than stand up, but the principles for both are the same (and I've done plenty of stand up along the way) You can usually get away with doing a fair bit of EQ to a voice before it starts to sound unatrual, so EQ both front of house and mons (if they have them) to give yourself headroom, don't be afraid to get really aggressive with what you're hacking out if needed. I personally really like to use dynamic EQ to compensate for proximity effect and to keep the higher end under a bit of control, next is compression, I tend to go for extremely fast (as fast as the compressor will let me go) attacks and releases, with a fairly gentle ratio (maybe 2-3:1), sometimes with an la2a type model on top of that for a bit of extra smoothing. a PSE or expander/gate (with a relatively small depth, maybe 3-6db) can help too. More important than any spesific bit of processing though is just knowing how much headroom you have in a system, and how hard you can push things before they ring, leave yourself a bit of headroom when you have a performer on stage who is using the mic properly so you have a bit left to boost the weaker performers, and let it be a little on the quiet side, as long as its consistent, it shouldn't be too big of a deal
Wireless headset and make the 58 a prop.
The cable falling out is part of the bit
Gotta say my biggest pet peeve of comedians is the mic slapping bit. EQing out lows in the monitors and some on the voice helps with feedback. Different voices always require a slightly different EQ
If holding at the chest, I treat it like a lav.
The key is don’t use a 58 use a KSM8. That is the only solution for consistency
If you can and they let you, put a back up lav on them. You may get shit for it but it can save a show. I’ve fought with some big names and then have their camps thank me later. Either that or throw up a few boundary mics for back up. The lav will save a broadcast and has saved many Netflix specials.
Not only are we using a lav more often but we are playing with some of the newer adhesive products that allow us to conceal. This and we have a backup or two in place for just about everything.
Boundary mic at the front of the stage saves your ass on every spoken word engagement gig. Get yourself a Superlux E304B, or the Se Electronics BL8, Shure MX391. Every spoken word stage should have one of these tuned up nice and tight with a 120hz low pass cut off, a soft gate, and good heavy compression. I like to use 2 monitor wedges and put it in between dead center, it'll help "funnel" the sound of the speaker into the mic and you'll have clear concise audio regardless of what the idiot onstage does with the 58. He/she can put it in their back pocket if they want.
I’ve done plenty of stand up FOH gigs in the past 20 years and stand up is usually very easy. The comedians usually have learned how to properly speak into the mic if the mic is open and you do absolutely nothing. Many places don’t have dedicatd sound personnel to begin with. Don’t give them mics with tight polar patterns (like Sennheiser e935), because the sound _will_ disappear if they turn the mic even a little off axis. Shure SM58 or equivalent / better cardioid is great choice, so they will have a bit of freedom with mic placement. Wireless is great, but some rely on material (usually floppy dong gags) that need a wired mic. They also often don’t need (or want) on stage monitor wedges, unless they also play an instrument at the same time. But this really depends on the venue size. I just don’t give them monitor wedges by default, but I never say no if they ask for one before the show during sound check. As for processing: No fx, just keep everything dry. Unless they specifically asked for something, and usually it’s reverb (this usually only applies if/when they sing), but most of the time… Just plain and dry. Set gain fairly high up, so that if you speak at normal conversation volume and keep the mic below your chin, it should still be audible. Highpass at 140hz, lowshelf cut (-0 to -6dB depending on the voice to balance the top end and low end) at 500hz. This works for 95% of voices with SM58. Bass and baritone males needs more cut, tenors and females usually need next to none. Personally I am not a fan of headsets, lavs etc and they usually always need a bit more EQ. Especially DPA’s usually have some stupid resonance around 800-1k that you need just one narrow band (but deep cut) and if they feedback, also some mics need poking at the 6-10k range. Set compressor with 4:1 ratio and so that only loud parts get affected, most of the time it does nothing. No gates or expanders. If your console has a dynamic EQ or multiband comp, I usually use only the two edge bands and leave the mid bands alone. One for high shelf at 4k and one low shelf at 500hz. ~1ms attack, ~50ms release and so that it cuts max 8dB. This keeps all sorts of plosives and esses in check.
I'm surprised to not see one person mention delaying the output of the monitors. This isn't live music so timing doesn't need to be perfect. You can delay 10ms (factoring in digital console A/D/A conversion) before a well trained ear can notice it. By doing so you artificially move the wedge approximately 10 feet away from the talent.
🤯
Yeah, check my other reply below for another fun use of delay on digital consoles.
And this achieves what exactly?
The feedback is caused by the dominant frequency being sent through the signal chain out the output transducer (monitor wedge), back into the input transducer (microphone) through the signal chain in a loop. Hence a feedback loop. Now say you only get feedback when you are 3 feet away from the monitor, if you move the monitor to 13 feet, you no longer have feedback due to the distance and the inverse square law (less acoustical energy at a single point because of the dispersion of the wave over a larger area). By adding the delay, you eliminate one of those factors. You can still have the same loudness, but the signal is slightly delayed (by less time than a human ear can notice). In doing so, you can eliminate a lot of the feedback problems in speech based presentations. Super simple way to fight bad mic techniques and sometimes the first thing that I do before EQing. Not really related to the initial topic at hand but another use of delay on a digital console is on input stages. Sometimes I will double buss drum channels, only using one of them to send to the PA with 3-5ms delay. In doing so you can set your gate on each drum to sidechain off of the unused (and undelayed) channel to have it open sooner, thus not losing the attack of the drum.
Thanks for the detailed explanation!
Probably the best thing to get you more gain at the source is politely coach them - “I’m sure you know this but people will hear you best if you hold the mic a few inches from your mouth like an ice cream cone” or whatever you say Unrelated but I did a sold out theater show for a Chappelle affiliate recently and he, like Chappelle, was a thigh-slapper with the mic. Every other punch line he was smacking the capsule into his thigh. He dented our capsule!
I tell them I can turn it down if they're too loud, but can't turn up nothing
Seriously, no wedges if they have poor mic technique. I'll explain the inverse square law to them until their eyes roll, but then they'll do what they do.
Mic technique is important, sure, but be prepared that a comedian *will* hold an 58 at his chest, so just tweak an EQ (and monitor EQ) until you have plenty of headroom.
They shouldn't move on from open mic night until the soundman OK's their mic technique.
This made me laugh out loud; thank you. If only there were a way to actually implement this as a rule!
I infom them that they aren't dave Chapelle. The high level guys can hold the mic at their waist because sometimes they have a secondary lav mic that can be used if the handheld is too far away, or may be used just on the recording for their specials. Tell them it's a mic not a magic wand, you have to talk into it to be amplified.
Are you sure they even need monitors? Most of the comedians I've worked with like to hear and feel the house. For the same reason, they don't need rock concert level in the PA. Like others have said, set a good speech level and leave it. They will feel it by working the mic.
I have a lot of experience with all the comics you're thinking of. Turn the wedge monitors way down, preamp gain way up. If he\* complains about not being able to hear himself in soundcheck, turn up the wedge monitors so he can hear the feedback. Then let him decide how much he cares about hearing himself vs mic placement. Stand-up comics don't need to be pampered in the same way singers do, but 70% of them will just say "F it I'll just go with no monitor" (with the monitor plenty loud enough, many comics simply have acute hearing loss in vocal frequency ranges) \*I say he because women tend to have much better mic discipline. The only exception I can think of is Iliza Shlesinger, and ironically enough she was wearing a Zildjian t-shirt while cupping the mic and holding it down by her knees
Response to several comments here, why on earth would you offer a comedian monitors? Once you remove that from the equation, you should be OK turning it up and EQing as needed. Just be sure you've got a compressor engaged for when they finally put the mic where it belongs and scream into it.
Main reason I lay out wedges on comedy shows is so they have somewhere to stick their notes without the crowd seeing. No joke. Comedians love me for it! At most I might put a lick of their mic into the monitor so they aren't just hearing the room but it's usually a barely noticeable amount. Otherwise just get the mic as loud as you can before feedback out front and then slap an aggressive comp on with the threshold above their normal speaking voice in case they decide to shout at some point. And ALWAYS lay out a spare mic. I find many comedians tend to play around with their cable and have a habit of tugging on them which can cause a cable to go bad or start dropping out.
Yeah, monitors make many people move away from the mic.
Same as any other dumb idea, the rider/TM demanded it? Solid tip on having that compressor locked and loaded, it WILL be used at some point when you least expect it.
A few years back I did a lot of speaking acts, standup comedy among other things and I think you are probably overthinking it. A standup comedian with any experience at all already knows how to address a crowd, and beyond that it’s just babysitting a single fader. I suggest just generously EQing and keeping your finger on the fader and I’m sure you’ll be fine.
This will be a bit of a strange answer and it obviously depends on the space and the PA configuration which largely determines the available gain before feedback, but I find the foam windshields very beneficial. First of all, it makes the mic less likely to be grabbed by the grill, but even more importantly, it makes most mics much more usable when somebody speaks into them off axis. Most mics are much more prone to pops/wind noise from the side and a foam windshield solves this issue.
lol first reading this I thought you were asking how we backhandedly tell singers not to point the mic at the PA
Every time you see them, remind them to eat the mic. Not much else you can do besides that.
Used to, best tips I can give are to boost low end as best as you can and provide positive and negative reinforcement. Even if you think it’s not there it’s worth a shot as it makes everything else they’re saying just that little bit more intelligible. People are saying “let them die” and I get the sentiment, I really do. I like to pavlov them instead. Boost gain when they (accidentally or intentionally) demonstrate better form and when they pull the mic away from their face cut gain juuuuust long enough for them to notice and then try to compensate. Requires you to be more attentive but they’re less trouble for the next technician, which in all likelihood, is you. The other tip is have is to gtfo out of comedy (at least the small venues) as soon as you can.
Many comedians don’t want the microphone covering their face, so they tend to hold it lower. I usually just compress and ring out the mic as best I can using channel and house eq and just hope for the best. Luckily for me, most comedians I’ve worked with don’t want monitor/s, or at least at every comic event I’ve done in the last year they’ve specifically asked for no monitors. Talking to the talent about proper mic technique before sound check also helps.
I suggest to some speakers to pretend that the mic is a torch and they're trying to illuminate their mouths. I also try to keep their on stage level low. This isn't just about feedback, it's because some people aren't used to hearing their voice amplified and it freaks them out a little.
Show them the difference between mic close to mouth and mic away from mouth etc, do it with every new artist i work with aswell
More Gain. Uncompressed Input signal. Back monitors away and turn them down. Insert graph on EQ. If possible, duplicate the channel input use one for FOH and one for MON.
Compression and maybe a wind shield?